8/28/24: Tulsi Joins Trump Campaign, Swing States Keep RFK On Ballot, Israel Attacks West Bank, Zuckerberg Admits Biden Censorship, France Erupts Over Macron Election Denial, Independent Tied In NB
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Hey, it's Will Friedle. And Sabrina Bryan. And we're the hosts of the new podcast, Magical Rewind. You may know us from some of your favorite childhood TV movies like My Date with the President's Daughter. And the Cheetah Girls movies. Together we're sitting down to watch all the movies you grew up with and chat with some of your favorite stars and crew that made these iconic movies happen. So kick back, grab your popcorn, and join us. Listen to Magical Rewind on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Brought to you by State Farm. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Hey guys, ready or not, 2024 is here and we here at Breaking Points are already thinking of ways we can up our game for this critical election. We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade the studio, add staff, give you guys the best independent coverage that is possible. If you like what we're all about, it just means the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that, let's get to the show.

All right, good morning and welcome to CounterPoints. How you doing, Emily? I'm doing great. How are you, Ryan? We have an amazing show today. We really do. Today we do have an, you know, we say it, but

But today we have an amazing show. I was telling Sagar I need more of his kid in the candy store energy in the show. You need more ghost energy. Yes. Just fired up and happy to be here. Yeah. Okay. Well, maybe that's more of a psychological thing, though. All right. There we go. Okay. You just need more Kamala joy in your life. That might be it. There you go. That's it. Joy is rubbing off. So we're going to talk about RFK, a lot of RFK. And also, people have been asking about the Friday show. We're

Back to Friday shows. This Friday, we're going to have a debate over the kind of the role of RFK in this race and his role in the general, whether or not he's going to actually be a boost to Trump or not, or whether he feeds into the Democratic weird meme that they're trying to wrap around.

Republicans. Yeah, we'll be joined by Michael Tracy and Jeff Hodges, a field director for RFK Junior's campaign for a debate about the future of RFK Junior, his Trump endorsement and all of that. So stay tuned to the Friday show for that debate, but it'll come out early for premium subscribers on Thursday night. We're going to start by covering the ongoing situation where Tulsi Gabbard and RFK Junior are now going to be stumping for Donald Trump on the campaign trail. He's sort of collecting his

former Democrat Island of Misfit Toys and sending them out. And I don't say that derisively because I think we'll get into it. I don't want to. The Republicans love theirs. I mean, the Democrats love theirs. They put their Republicans up on stage at the convention. Yeah. And we'll be doing some election updates. We have some interesting news about ballot access, about Kamala Harris's fundraising numbers, which are eye popping. We're going to talk about the hostage release yesterday in

Israel and other updates in that conflict. Massive raid by the IDF of the West Bank. They currently have Janine surrounded. Bizarrely, they are calling it Operation Summer Camps. Come on. Are you serious? You always also know the operation name, which I think is useful. I guess sometimes it is. Other times you're like, what are you doing? Because it's such a window into the... Operation Summer Camps. Come on. It's so bizarre.

All right, and then we'll be talking about Mark Zuckerberg's kind of concession, his regrets about censoring. Mistakes were made. Mistakes were made. Posts were censored. Right, and that's about both COVID and the Hunter Biden laptop story, as Zuckerberg put in a letter this week. So we will be talking about that and just the crazy ongoing situation with the French government and the French sort of –

their attempts to form, actually their attempts to form a government. And we'll tell you what Emmanuel Macron is up to because it's a doozy. We were just saying that whenever your republic is called the Fifth Republic,

that might not bode well for its longevity. So we may be staring at the tail end of the fifth and the beginning of the sixth and be interesting to see what we have in the middle. Or they just stop with the whole Republic thing. It might not be a sixth. That's true. Are there any Napoleon heirs around? There might be. There might be. Brian, tell us about Dan Osborne, who's joining the show as a guest as well. This is fascinating. Everybody believes that

Control of the Senate and thus the agenda for whoever comes into office hinges on the Montana Senate race Okay, that if Democrats and Jon Tester hold that one that they're gonna hold the Senate. There's also this wild card of Nebraska where Democrats decided you know what?

People hate us so much. We're not even going to run a candidate in Nebraska. Forget about it. The absolute political dynamo of Montana Republican Senator Deb Fischer is unbeatable. In comes veteran Dan Osborne, who led a massively successful strike in the state.

And he's running a kind of class-first, independent campaign. Polls have him. Shouldn't be surprising to anybody that watches this program. Neck and neck with the brand-name Republican in the state. You could have a scenario where this actually pans out. Or this might be a Democratic gimmick.

where they're just trying to cloak a Democrat in independent clothing, although one who happens to be a labor leader in the state and with a cool background. We'll ask Dan Osborne which he is at the end of the program. Great. Well, looking forward to that. Let's start with Tulsi Gabbard.

And also RFK Jr. jumping into the race on behalf of Donald Trump. This has been developing over the course of the week, obviously started with RFK Jr.'s announcement that he was formally endorsing Trump, but has developed as Trump has brought them both on as campaign advisors. This is some of the big news. And we have a clip from RFK Jr.'s recent appearance on Tucker. Tucker reportedly helped kind of broker the negotiations about an endorsement and a dropout

So let's take a listen to what RFK Jr. said on an edition of Tucker Carlson's show that came out yesterday. I'm going to work to get him elected. And, you know, I'm working with the campaign. We're working on policy issues together. I've been asked to go on to the transition team.

And, you know, to help pick the people who will be running the government. And I'm looking forward to that. And I, you know, I'm going to fight. I don't know what would happen to me if we lose. Well, that's kind of it. I mean, a lot of people I know personally and I'm friends with have gone to prison. One of them is in prison right now, Pavel Durov. There are others. Like, what happens if he loses to you? Mm-hmm.

If Trump loses and Kamala Harris becomes president. Oh, I don't know. But I mean, listen, I know I don't I never really think about that. What I think is, OK, here's what I got to do today. And, you know, get up every day and say reporting for duty, sir, and then go do that and whatever.

You know, nothing's a crisis. Everything's a task, right? And so that's what I'm going to be, kind of a happy warrior. You know, I know what I have to do, so I'm going to do it. So Tulsi Gabbard also made a speech at a National Guard meeting

It was Trump made a speech. She made her formal endorsement of Trump at a National Guard event in Detroit. So let's take a listen to Tulsi Gabbard. And as I cue up this clip, I'll also mention that it's worth remembering both RFK Jr. and Tulsi endorsed Bernie Sanders in 2016. So here's what Tulsi Gabbard had to say at that speech. This administration has us facing multiple wars on multiple fronts and regions around the world.

and closer to the brink of nuclear war than we ever have been before. This is one of the main reasons why I'm committed to doing all that I can to send President Trump back to the White House where he can once again serve us as our Commander-in-Chief. Because I am confident that his first task will be to do the work to walk us back from the brink of war. We cannot be prosperous unless we are at peace.

And we can't live free as long as we have a government that is retaliating against its political opponents and undermining our civil liberties, weaponizing our very institutions against those they deem as a threat. Kamala Harris has done this over the last three and a half years. She won't hesitate to continue that if she is elected as president. President Trump has been their first and foremost target in this because they don't want us as voters to even have the option

to vote for him. I've been their most recent target.

added to a secret domestic terror watch list after exposing the truth about what kind of dangers we would face if Kamala Harris is elected as president. Okay, so that was Tulsi Gabbard. She also, and you can probably fill in the blanks from the speech, but said one of the biggest reasons she was endorsing Donald Trump is that there were no new wars started under his watch. And that was, foreign policy was a huge feature of the speech. I guess no surprise from Tulsi Gabbard. Now, I don't know who to

Quick programming note on that one. She mentioned that she was put on this terror watch list. Quiet Skies. Quiet Skies. Next week, we're going to have Matt Taibbi and Jeffrey Sachs on the Friday show. Yes. Talking about other stuff, but Taibbi has done a bunch of reporting on the Quiet Skies, Tulsi Gabbard element, so we can get an update on that. Anyway, go ahead. No, no, I was going to say, I don't know who to blame for putting this Chris Silliza tweet in the rundown, because why? But...

We can go ahead and put A3 up on the screen. Crystal is a tweeted. This fairly interesting graph that comes from the Pew Research Center. Now, what's also pretty interesting about this, you're seeing how Harris Trump supporters view key cultural issues. If you're listening to this, that's what the graphic says. Goes down the line of gun ownership, how the legacy of slavery affects the position of black people in America today. Openness to people from all over the world.

religion should be kept separate from government policies. And what you see is just really intense polarization. That was also the same between Biden supporters and Trump supporters, which is fairly interesting. Pew redid the poll after Harris got in the race because Harris has actually gotten our

RFK Jr. voters, this is also from Pew, who were supporting him in July, broke for Harris two to one, according to their research between July and August. So this is all happening against the backdrop of really stark cultural polarization. And I think that's what makes it doubly interesting that both RFK Jr. and Tulsi Gabbard come from positions supporting Bernie Sanders. Tulsi obviously, memorably, was the vice chair of the DNC. These are not people who were sort of

figuring out what they believed and you know the type of centrists who were Brokering deals with like the never Trump Adam Kinzinger's. I mean these are ideological. These are ideological Like you might take it if I say leftists, but they were at least close to that I think what's what I think what's telling and interesting about both of them is that they're they're both they both have eccentric and kind of malleable politics

What what is in and that's not a criticism? What that means is that when there's a realignment happening when there's a shift on the move They are gonna be the first types of people who are on the move Gabbard

So when she first ran in her primary, she was considered the more conservative of the Democrats running in the primary. And there was some skepticism of her coming in because of this really ardent support of the global war on terror, which is one of her few positions that has remained completely consistent throughout her career. And that's why conservative is a weird label for her, among many other reasons. Yeah. And so...

Then in February 2016, right before Super Tuesday, she resigned from vice chair at DNC and supported Bernie Sanders. But then in 2020, she ran herself rather than support Sanders. And then after dropping out, instead of endorsing Sanders,

who was still running, she endorsed Biden, which is a weird, like that's not really on the horseshoe. That's her just kind of going on the spectrum, the old traditional spectrum with a little stop in the middle and then becoming an independent and then an independent conservative and then a Republican and then a Trump supporter. But I do think this is not a Christmas of hers. What it says is that I think somebody like her who has, um,

Kind of the kind of politics that a lot of people have you have you know Some you agree with some people over here and you agree with some people over there defies categorization devise categorization that she would be more attracted to

Kind of looser coalition that is that is Trump right now And she's also correct me if I'm wrong, which sounds like a Medicare for all populist economic person as well She definitely was be interesting to see Recently I saw her saying stuff about how government spending is out of control and we gotta you know attack the deficit interesting very non Bernie type stuff, but I admit she should come on the program now as his

As an ambassador. We'd love that. And as a surrogate and say, look, I will talk about where you are on that. Because Trump is for all that stuff, practically. I mean, it depends on his mood. But there was that famous moment where Paul Ryan's like trying to repeal Obamacare for like the 53rd time. And Trump's like, why don't we just do single payer? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And Ryan's like, yeah, we're not going to do that. No, we can't. Well.

No, there might be some issues. We're not doing that. We're not that party. Right. But Trump, what does he care? He's like, is it good health care? Brent, I particularly wanted to get your take, actually, speaking about that, on this clip from RFK Jr., where he's discussing how the environmental movement's obsession with carbon is

started to push him away from the Democratic Party, away from the left. He calls Tucker Carlson a radical environmentalist. Tucker agrees with that very heartily. And I think it fits into this broader discussion about how increasingly a lot of normal Americans just defy categorization. That might be because of Trump, by the way. People feel like they don't belong in the Republican Party because they're really uncomfortable with Donald Trump and they're really uncomfortable for support for Donald Trump.

Or you have people like Tulsi Gabbard and RFK Jr. RFK Jr. in particular has some colorful quotes about Donald Trump from years past where he's highly critical of him. So it's kind of a remarkable turn of events to what you were just speaking about. How does Tulsi Gabbard go from endorsing Bernie to endorsing Biden to endorsing Donald Trump? And I'm thinking about Tulsi in Afghanistan. You know, Biden wanted to end the war in Afghanistan. Everybody sort of has their big priorities. And they say, I can...

deprioritize all of these other policy issues where I disagree with one candidate on because I think what they're going to do on this particular issue, which is my priority, which I think is the most important thing in the country, is going to get done under them. That's kind of what RFK Jr. is talking about here with the environment. So let's roll this clip of him talking to Tucker Carlson. You literally spent your life with Riverkeepers as an environmentalist and environmental lawyer.

in the environmental movement. I mean, that's your life work product. Have you been expelled from the movement? Pretty much, yeah. You know, the weird thing is I think of you as a radical environmentalist. Well, I definitely am. Yeah, you are. I haven't showered inside in 10 years. Yeah, yeah. No, I feel it so strongly. Also, you know, you love nature. You're against these big projects that are destroying it.

And, you know, you talk about toxics and the environmental movement no longer talks about toxics anymore. They don't care about it. I talk, Roger Ailes, all the time with both of us, who would let me occasionally onto Fox News to talk about it. But there was so much hostility from the Republican Party because it was like you're attacking corporate profit taking and that these are chemicals, they're molecules, who cares? You know, they can't hurt you.

And then you do this incredible show on endocrine disruptors. And I'm like, oh my God, Tucker Carlson has just done the best show that's ever been done showing what's happening with endocrine disruptors and how they're just destroying us. And the Democrats went after you and the environmental movement. And I'm like, what? This is what we've been trying to get for 40 years, the Republicans to care about these issues.

And they said, oh, he's saying that chemicals turn people gay and he's anti-gay and all this stuff.

And that wasn't what you said at all. And that's not what anybody said. Ryan, you're a hippie. Is he right? Yeah. Is he right that toxins in particular, because that's what he's doing. He's saying, listen, Donald Trump has said that he might give me the ability to have some oversight over public health, the obesity crisis, the chemical crisis, the metabolic disease crisis. You know, I think that is the most important thing in the world. And if we don't deal with it,

You know, that's why I'm basically supporting Donald Trump. So is he right that the environmental movement has moved away from those priorities in a way that's alienating sort of old school RFK Jr. environmentalists? Or is he mischaracterizing? I don't know if it's alienating old school RFK Jr. types other than him, but he's absolutely right about the focus on carbon and climate change. Like there's no question about that. I don't think...

And we could get him back on the show and ask him. I don't think it needs to be an either or like climate change is an existential threat to us.

The Middle East is going through right like as we speak one of its like worst heat waves in history Just looked it's like 110 in Baghdad Which I understand people like oh, it's the Middle East. It's hot over there. No, it's like it's like much hotter than than normal and We are facing massive problems as a result of it his point that we have overlooked toxicity

dead-on There's no constituency right now calling out forever plastics except Tucker Carlson, right? Yes, and he that was an interesting program that he did on time on

endocrine disruptors and plastics and and Also the way that our our food Food system is poisoning us basically, you know at an industrial level These are all like also existential questions that we need to be faced. So it shouldn't be an either/or right Because you have to get them both, right if you if you get one, right you don't get the other right. Good luck. Yeah so but so yes, we do need to focus on them both it would be

kind of a shame if you wound up with like one party it's like we need to deal with toxics than the other ones we need to deal with carbon and they're like, yeah, forget it. Let's just do neither It's crazy because you can easily see like the revival of the crunchy con Trope is exploding more than it was when Roger originally wrote the book crunchy conservatives like this is right now I've never seen anything like this in the Republican Party where you have people like RFK jr. And Tulsi Gabbard supporting Donald Trump and talking about these issues people like Tucker Carlson openly talking about these issues you could easily see a world where

We see this on economic policy a lot healthcare policy a lot. You just never end up putting the two pieces together They can have conversations and be like, yes, you're right. This is so important But this is one where you was apart where you really have to bring both sides together on this because

You can't approach the question of toxicity and toxics in our food system and in our water from a personal responsibility right-wing frame. Right, right, right. You just can't. It's like, hey, have better personal responsibility. Find water that doesn't have plastic in it. Right, right. You can go to the Arctic and you can't find that. Yeah. This is a...

global problem that requires a global, you know, literal top-down solution that can be like democratically executed and agreed upon by everybody. But yeah, just saying like we need to, and it goes to the,

the kind of environmentalism that corporate America tried to foist onto the world in the '90s and '80s, '90s and 2000s, one of them was, one of their big scams was recycling. - Recycling, yeah. - Where they're like, just take personal responsibility and separate things, put them in these bins, feel like you're doing something good, then they'll all put them all in the same place and then they'll just make that much more plastic. The second was when they invented the term carbon footprint.

As if.

Every every particular act you have you take has some particular carbon footprint and then if you just buy offsets for your little carbon footprint Then then actually everything's okay. It's great scam rather than saying no No, no The problem is the industrial production of blasting carbon into the atmosphere that needs to be reined in at a global level not not by a few people like making different choices and biking rather than

Driving which you should do but you should do you should do all these things because they're good for you not because you think that they're going to be the solution to a global crisis and that's the opening for I think a conversation with conservatives and it's bubbling into something that's more than a conversation which is where that's Particularly worth watching because some of these things right like when you're trying to talk about health care or right-left alliance or trade or right-left alliance you can have all these conversations and then you hit a brick wall because ultimately if

you don't want to be seen with Donald Trump or you don't want to be seen with Joe Biden, like chips. Great example. It ultimately passed. But a lot of Republicans ended up dropping out of their support for chips, which they had like shepherded through the Senate and through Congress. And here, I mean, I just don't know where this goes, because to your point, I mean, if conservatives are concerned about forever plastics, microplastics, endocrine disruptors, all of these things, you also have to I mean, that's

Tethered for many people like RFK jr. To climb it to production. Yeah, like intense industrial production levels. So Right there has to be an earn an actual earnest conversation about it because it gets really interesting because you're because on the forever plastics for instance one of the leading sources of them and you go down this rabbit hole is is car tires like the rubber in car tires and

And you need stronger tires to drive heavier EVs. So paradoxically, the more EVs you get, the more toxic tires you have, and then the more forever plastics you have out there.

You could be the oil industry like aha that shows we shouldn't we shouldn't do EVs. We shouldn't care about Climate at all or you could say okay. These are problems We're not morons like we can figure we can get together and collectively figure this out If our goal is to actually make a better planet and not to just protect like incumbent oil industries or plastic industries or whatever Whatever else sure. Well, it'll be a fun one to watch. Let's say for sure

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There is some also RFK Jr. news, but we're going to get into how this affects the election more broadly. We can put up B1 on the screen. This is an Axios report that shows Michigan denying Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s attempt to get off of the presidential ballot in Michigan. They say it's too late for him to remove his name from office, according to the office of the secretary of state.

in Michigan. Now, that may not seem like a big deal. It actually really is because we remember how close the margins were in states like Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania, especially in 2016. Speaking of those states, we can go ahead and put the next element up on the screen. He's also going to remain on the ballot in Nevada, North Carolina, and guess what? Wisconsin, blue wall state. So, Ryan, I've seen some

some theories floating around that this is kind of an effort to hurt Donald Trump on behalf of like these Dem officials in these states who want to give voters who may be torn between RFK Jr. and Donald Trump the option of voting for RFK Jr. because, you know, there are a lot of double haters and they're just going to say, I'd rather not vote for Trump. I'm going for this Robert F. Kennedy Jr. guy.

you know, reasonably many people don't follow the news as closely as we do. Mercifully, it sounds like a wonderful life, but they may not even know by the time I would assume everybody knows what happened. But a lot of people are tuned out and reasonably so. So I don't know that it's like a conspiracy, but it definitely does seem like it could have a small positive effect on the

Harris campaign I almost said the Biden campaign. Yeah Democrats started by trying to keep him off ballots. Now they want him desperately to try to keep him on Some of it is his own fault in Nevada The deadline was August 20th like you show up in person you like the laws you have to show up in person and file by August 20th to get yourself off he didn't it was like August 20 whatever that he decided to endorse Trump and

So the election officials, man, they're like, look, we got rules, rules and rules. In Wisconsin, I think he was nominated by the Natural Law Party and they held a convention. That could mean so many things. I know. It's great. So just for people who don't mercifully, you know, haven't looked into this throughout their life.

It's very difficult to get on these ballots around the country. And so one thing people try to do is try to find a party that doesn't have a candidate and a party that just for some bizarre quirk of state history has ballot access. And so RFK Jr. found the Natural Law Party in Wisconsin. And I guess his campaign was like, hey, anybody running for this? Can we run for it? They ran for that nomination. They won it. And Wisconsin said, look,

in order to get him off of a party's ballot, because he's not an independent, they would have to have another convention, vote to get him off and get a new candidate. And there's no time, like ballots are going out. North Carolina ballots are going on September 6th. I was just gonna say. And something like a third of North Carolina's 100 counties have already sent their ballots to the printer. So we're getting into actual practical problems. Which if it weren't for them,

Would Trump just like say thanks JD and just put RFK Jr. as his running mate? Do you think if logistically it could be done, he'd be like, you know what, let's just have Trump-Kennedy? No, I don't know because I think Trump, I would be very curious to hear. I haven't heard this from any people, just journalistically, what Trump really thinks of RFK Jr. because

One of the things with him is if you endorse him, if you sort of engage in these negotiations with him, he doesn't always respect you. He feels like he sort of owns you. And I don't know if he has that level of respect for Robert F. Kennedy Jr. But he thoroughly owns J.D. Vance. He took J.D. Vance from like third to first in the Senate race. Right? Yeah, that's true. Although RFK Jr. is sort of...

Yeah, I don't know. He's just like, he's kind of kooky. Maybe Trump doesn't like his voice. Well, that's probably a real thing. Also, RFK Jr.'s kid or whoever leaked that phone call. That must have ticked him off. I'm sure it did. Oh, and North Carolina, to wrap that one up, they have said that, I forget what party he's running on there, but they said they've gotten no word from Trump.

the party that has nominated RFK Jr. in North Carolina that he wants to be off the ballot. Because you would think like, okay, we had a press conference, we said we want this. But he also, in North Carolina's defense, he said, I'm going to remove my name from roughly 10 battleground states where I think it's competitive, but I'm going to keep my name on in the other states for some reason.

So in North Carolina's defense, they're like, look, okay, unless we get a phone call. Yeah.

then we're not gonna take any deliberate action. Once everyone gets back from the Labor Day holiday, it is shocking how quickly the voting comes out. Oh yeah, these ballots are going out. So I just have this calendar in front of me. There are a lot of states that are 45 days out from election, 50 days out from election, and one or two. I think one of those might include Pennsylvania. So people are quite literally going to start voting very, very soon around the time of the first debate, which is scheduled for September 10th. Because

Think when we get back from Labor Day next week, there are about 60 days left before the election. So it's coming up extremely fast. Tons of pragmatic questions. Now, James Carville, to this point about Donald Trump, was on a show recently talking about Trump's efforts to like right the ship of his campaign amid the

Maybe I'm just going to go out of order to the control room here. It's in the context of what we saw happen with Kamala Harris. This is before a report from Al Jazeera, but it's been also reported elsewhere that her fundraising numbers are at a record level right now. I think she's hauled in some $540 million just after the DNC. This is the presidential record. $82 million during the convention itself. Bernie raised...

In 2016, 250 million from small dollars. And that was amazing. And which broke all kinds of small dollar records. I mean, Obama was in separate cases. That included the general election. This is just weeks, shattering records in weeks. And I think people need to understand that this also, if you believe that

that politicians are bought and can be bought, which you should believe because that's obvious. To have them bought by $540 million largely from just normal people is actually a really good thing for our democracy. And the Republicans are moving in that direction too, just filling up your inbox. And Democrats do the same thing, fill up your inbox, begging you for money. And then in moments of real enthusiasm, you go and you're like, okay, fine.

And you give obviously you give Kamala Harris five hundred forty million dollars So Kamala Harris has also 1.5 million new donors, which is really interesting coming in after Biden drops off the ticket So that's people who weren't previously giving to the Biden campaign. This is according to the New York Times who analyzed the Disclosures which is I think fairly significant actually just in and of herself giving to the Biden campaign like

I mean, I know like big, big money people of course would do that because that's their job and they're trying to buy influence. But if you're a regular person, you're like. Well, because you hate Trump. I mean, you're genuinely. You hate Trump, but it was so embarrassing. Yeah.

It was so bad. It was so demoralizing. Yeah. This is just uncorked enthusiasm. The New York Times reports Harris donors were slightly more likely to come from more educated zip areas, more educated areas. Zip code were more than half of those 25 and over had a bachelor's degree. And Ms. Harris also claimed a slightly higher share of first-time small dollar donors from zip codes where more than 5% of the population was black. So that's where some of that 1.5 million new donors are coming in. But this is

Obviously, if you're the Trump campaign right now, you're on your heels. These numbers are astounding. So let's go ahead and roll this clip of James Carville talking about how Trump has, in his mind as a Democratic, sort of legendary, mythical Democratic strategist, analyzed the Trump campaigns or Donald Trump himself's reaction to Harris joining the ticket. He has a shark-like survival instinct. And he knows that he's not

having the same effect as he used to, he knows that Harris has become what he's always wanted to be, is the kind of hot item. He does. And he's not the new kid on the block anymore. And he's struggling to regain that. But like I say, he has very primitive survival skills.

And I think this is something that is driving him crazy. Right. I think what you're saying is he's in deep, in deep trouble and is aware of it. He is. He is. And he's aware. And now how he gets out of it or can he get out of it? I don't know. Very primitive survival skills. So James Carmel. Well said. Well, I mean, I don't know. He survived pretty long at this point. But primitive creatures survive longer.

For millennia fair enough fair enough now the interesting well, it's beyond interesting I mean, it's always worth remembering it kind of feels like it gets lost in all of this but a primitive is a compliment and

Because it's like, those are the best survival skills. Okay. I don't think he was using those as a compliment. You don't want an accountant's survival skills. True, but James Carville seemed to be using it in the sense that like he's a kind of Neanderthal. Yeah, but I think he respects a Neanderthal. Okay, okay. Fellow Neanderthal. As a Clinton, yeah.

A Clinton operative, fair enough. Well, Donald Trump is in quote deep trouble because if he loses this election amidst this flood of cash for his opponent and a polling surge for his opponent, he could be facing jail time. He can't dismiss, for example, the DOJ's case against him, the Jack Smith case against him. That was just re-upped. Can't pardon people, right? Yeah, just refiled yesterday to comply with the Supreme Court's ruling on presidential immunity or to make it more, to sharpen it.

in light of what the Supreme Court decided in that case. So he is quote in deep trouble if he loses the election because obviously his freedom is on the line. Yeah, and we can put up B5 here. Democrats are now getting extremely confident about, not about extremely confident, but they're getting excited about the possibility of actually flipping the House. And we're gonna talk to Dan Osborne, Senate candidate at the end of this show.

Because Democrats actually also believe that they have a chance of holding the Senate. Like there is a chance.

that they could, they went from assuming, and several members of Congress in this article said, that they were going to lose all three chambers decisively to thinking we might actually win all three of these at this time. And a Democratic operative was making an interesting point to me about Harris that I think plays into this, which is that there's a key difference between her and Barack Obama in this sense that in 2008,

the Democrats and kind of independent progressives and others kind of invested their hopes into Obama as this transformative, unique leader who is going to take them somewhere new. Like he was the guy that was going to do it. They absolutely do not think of Kamala Harris that way. What they think of as what when they think of Kamala Harris, they think of somebody who

Can be the vessel for their for people's ability to fight against Trump that like she'll do interest and they're actually just they're rooting for her, you know And that's why they're I think fine that she hasn't had any interviews yet at all And when they watch that interview Thursday night that she's gonna do with Dana bash They're all just gonna be on pins and needles and with their fingers crossing like please comma, please come please Kamala Just you know hoping that she does well enough that she can then be the thing that

that they used to kind of fight back against Trump. Whereas when it was Obama, they would have been sitting back and just watching and like allowing Obama's genius to like wash over them. Yes. And I think- Like their joy washes over everyone. No, that's their joy in Biden being gone. But I think it's actually-

paradoxically a much a much healthier relation They have a much healthier relationship with Kamala Harris. You should not invest all your hopes into a politician Yeah, although you should actually have no confidence in them at all I mean and and need to kind of push them and drag them because that's the Democratic will then kind of working rather than

this guy is going to take us to the promised land. The magical transformation of Kamala Harris, though, I think has some people who were previously very cynical about her now genuinely investing emotionally in Kamala Harris as a human being. It's hilarious. Yeah, it's absolutely wild. So to your point, also a brilliant move, I think, by the Harris campaign to finally agree to a sit-down interview. It's going to be a joint interview with Harrison Walls.

On CNN with Dana Bash. And they put it as far forward as possible. And yeah, weeks ago she said she hopes her team will schedule one by the end of the month. It is like right, it's happening on Thursday night. Literally the eve of Labor Day weekend. Maybe we'll get one by the end of September. Maybe if we're lucky. But I mean, it's just like tactically, it's the same thing with this entire campaign. It has been such a risk averse campaign.

And I think it's like anti-small d democratic from, you know, the, and hypocritical from the democracy. And risk averse vice presidency. It's smart. We played a couple months ago that clip with Lester Holt where she sits down to do an interview on the border. Oh, yeah. And he asks her, you know, why haven't you gone to the border? She's like, I have gone to the border. He's like, no, you haven't.

She's like, oh, well, I haven't gone to Europe either. It was the most surreal exchange. Like, why did you just say you went to the border? That doesn't make any sense. She didn't do an interview for like a year after that.

Yeah, she's not, I mean, it's not her strength. It could be Palin-esque, but she's feeling herself right now and that goes a long way just in terms of your personal confidence when you're in these interviews and it can backfire on you too. And having Walls there is kind of a funny move. And also for this tiny ecosystem on the right, the Laura Loomers of the world who were convinced that Democrats deeply regretted their choice of Tim Walls and that he was gonna be swapped out for whoever any minute now.

they must be very confused by Kamala Harris, like asking walls to join her in her first interview. They might like, how do you make sense of that? If you're, if you're convinced that

He's actually like cooked and they're embarrassed by him. Yeah, I don't know. It's a good point But any mistakes they make will absolutely be buried in the Labor Day weekend. I mean, it's a third So Friday many people are already on vacation DC is like all in the Hamptons right now. So Yeah, so these empty everything will just be buried. Anyway, so sort of a brilliant move as much as I hate it game respect game

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All right, Ryan, let's move on to the Middle East and the invasion of the West Bank, which is ongoing right now. Tell us what happened. So last night, the IDF launched what they called Operation Summer Camps, which is an invasion of major parts of the occupied West Bank.

focused heavily on the refugee camp of Jenin. We can put this first element up. Associated Press was reporting that every entry in and out of Jenin was being blocked by armored vehicles.

And that- Which you can see on the screen here. Yeah, and that the hospitals were, they had blocked access to all hospitals and other medical centers. Their argument was they didn't want to allow people to kind of shelter in hospitals.

And so they have said that this is the largest assault. The Israeli army announced that this is the largest assault on the West Bank since 2002 that will involve thousands of service members and will last for days. And they have said it's a preemptive attack on what they said is the buildup of resistance groups in these refugee camps. They just, you know,

They just did a preemptive attack on Hezbollah, a lot of preemptive attacking going on, preemptive attacks for decades at this point. At least nine Palestinians were killed in this attack, which is a number that, yeah, which pales in comparison to the number.

to this day, the numbers of deaths that you get in Gaza from the ongoing Israeli attacks. You're also having, and we can talk about this later in a bit, an attack on Southern Qanunis by the IDF, a raid there, which appears to be based on intelligence gleaned from the Bedouin hostage who befriended, this is what we're hearing in the media,

By all accounts, it appears to be true that he had a good rapport with some of his captors.

and has been debriefing with the IDF continuously since he was released, and that the coincidence of the kind of raid on South Konya seems to suggest that the IDF believes that they have intel that they can operate on. So we may soon be hearing new, you know, the bodies of hostages being recovered or more hostage rescues.

The way that the Bedouin hostage was rescued, it turns out, was because communications were disabled between, because the infrastructure is so completely annihilated in Gaza that different Hamas operatives lost communication and basically they weren't able to keep up with people. A number of hostages were

were recently found suffocated in a tunnel after an IDF bombing. And so there's a huge risk to hostages of

the of the that the constant shelling and the and the constant attacks and destruction the infrastructure and the the inability of you know of their captors to communicate with each other because they're you know They don't want them to die like they want to keep them alive this guy Very you don't want to call anybody who went through that ten months of hell lucky But lucky in the sense that the tunnel didn't collapse on him and you didn't suffocate and we've heard that from other rescued hostages who said they felt like

Nobody knew where they were and there was indiscriminate bombing around them They didn't have confidence that they were you know being protected or safe and they felt lucky basically That's the that's the implication there is that we're lucky that we didn't die right from our like I don't want to call it friendly fire because it's not exactly the same but from Bombing in Gaza. Yeah, what do we have to see to here? Put up this put up this next element. I

So yeah, this is channel 14 is like Israel's Newsmax basically this is the Army's launch large-scale Marauder several areas at the same time in channel 14 one of the one of the correspondence there Said something like Everyone survivor you're all gonna die. I

If you ever if you ever want some blood-curdling stuff channel 14 is the is the place to go and put up the put up the third element

Here and here in this block. Ah, yes, there it is Terrorists in northern West Bank the gates of hell have opened either you surrender or you die which okay some interesting trash-talking just weird from a journalist I'm somebody who believes in You know putting some passion into your journalism and it's okay to have a point of view and

Just an interesting approach. Just a little weird. The gates of hell have opened. So anyway, Operation Summer Camp, according to Channel 14 in Israel, is the gates of hell opening on the occupied West Bank, which again, to be clear, is not Gaza and is not controlled by Hamas.

- And the Operation Summer Camp with that juxtaposition too, where the communication there is just, yeah, it's very, I mean, not surprising, but bizarre nonetheless.

I'm putting the fourth element here. This is the Biden approving humanitarian aid to Gaza via the floating pier, despite warnings from the U.S. government that rough waves could pose significant challenges and objections. This is from Yashar Ali saying an IG report revealed that Biden himself approved this plan. Right. Which we would have assumed. There's no way that this gets done without Biden. But this IG report has some interesting details that...

of people arguing logistically,

quote high waves was what they were calling it. Here we call it high tide. They're like, look, this isn't gonna work. The idea just logistically is dumb. And he's like, no, it's fine. Let's put hundreds of millions of dollars into this. And then separately, the report exposes internal objections, which kind of leaked out into the press at the time and also were obvious. There were people inside the State Department were saying, this gives Israel an out on

actually letting humanitarian aid through the ports of entry that already exist. And if you remember from our reporting on this at the time, this is weird. You're acting like there's some natural disaster around the rest of Gaza. It's waves. Where you're unable to just

put food and humanitarian aid into trucks and drive it in and distribute it to people. Like somehow that has become an impossibility that what you need to do is build this, you know, $500 million peer and then bring it in from Cyprus. But then as soon as they started loading supplies into Cyprus-

The IDF was just crawling around Cyprus and doing the exact same thing with their pencil and their clipboard. They're like, oh, what number do you have on this truck here? That number doesn't match what I have. Sorry, back of the line. So if you don't solve the problem...

What is one extra port that is doesn't even work gonna do we talked to someone a couple months ago I think was in Cyprus at the time that we had that conversation with right about how trucks were being and that's the United States wanted Israel to accept more trucks and as a huge like backer and funder of the war

if your ally, who's prosecuting this war, won't comply with that, you then spend how much money? I mean, what's the total on this pier to get around it? Because they won't let trucks through. The only extent to which this worked at all

is that because of this peer, that's when you had the World Central Kitchen convoy attacked by the IDF and killed. And because they attacked the World Central Kitchen, because people in Washington DC know Jose Andres, that embarrassed Biden enough that he made a phone call to Beebe and said, come on, this is embarrassing. You're killing me here by killing all of these people. And then all of a sudden for a couple of weeks, more trucks started getting in, proving the case

that it was actually Israeli policy. Because if it wasn't, then why could Bibi tweak it and all of a sudden more trucks are getting in? That obviously didn't last long. And the long-term effect of killing the World Central Kitchen humanitarian aid workers was that there were many fewer humanitarian aid workers willing to

for good reason, you know, go out onto the distribution runs, which then led Israel to say, well, it's the United Nations and UNRWA that can't distribute the aid. It's really not our fault. It's their fault. Ignoring the fact that they had killed

more than a hundred family and workers of UNRWA and had led a global campaign to defund them. There's some truth to the claims about UNRWA from the Israeli perspective, but we've talked about this before, when it's that embedded in such a tiny and concentrated population, that's sort of inevitable. And a big picture thought on this is, post-World War II,

these are all of the tangled, bizarre conversations that we have. And now we have international pressure that you feed civilians of your enemies, which is in the like sort of aggregate, a good thing and unusual in like all of human history. But if you say that you're, you're doing it, um, you,

You got to do it if you agree to the terms. And if you want to, you know, throw international law around like Biden does when it comes to Russia and then flout it or fail to pressure people into complying with it when you're supplying arms, et cetera. It's obviously incredibly problematic. Let's put C5 up on the screen. This is

a video of the hostage rescue. - Haid al-Qadi. - Yes, and that's actually a Muslim citizen of Israel, 52-year-old man was rescued. You can see the body cam footage from the IDF on the screen here. Like Ryan said, pretty lucky situation, but also worth mentioning that this, well worth mentioning that

This has re-upped calls from the family members of other hostages who have not been rescued, of which there are, I think, roughly an estimate of like alive 70, something like 60, 70 right now. Those families are calling for a ceasefire. So it has put that in the spotlight once again in headlines that you have the family members, the loved ones of people who are still being held hostage, re-upping their demands for ceasefire because—

This was the fourth successful recovery, I think, the fourth successful recovery by the IDF of hostages. But there are a lot of people who have been over there since October 7th and their families want to cease fire and they want them back. And that domestically complicates the politics for Netanyahu as well.

Right. It's Wednesday. You could have all of the hostages or an enormous number of the hostages out by the end of this week if they would just agree to the deal that Israel already put forward. That's what's so wild about these ongoing negotiations, that Israel put forward a deal, Biden made that deal public, Hamas said this works for us, let's implement this framework. Let's do it.

And Netanyahu's come back with, well, actually, we want to checkpoint in the Tzareem corridor, we want to control the access through Rafah, et cetera. And so we're back to a place where they're deadlocked again.

- And yeah, okay, so that's important context to all of this too. That's where we are right now with the potential ceasefire deal, which was the Biden camp was saying was more and more likely as we went through the Democratic Convention week, which I thought was very interesting timing. And now after DNC week is over, maybe these things are not, but my theory at the time was those public relations for the Biden campaign to say like, hey, this is going really, really well. We're doing a great job. We're almost there.

And when the week turned to the next week, it became pretty clear that's not what was happening. Right. And meanwhile, it's been interesting to see kind of Israeli society first mourning a lot of the children that were killed who were kind of Syrian Arab children in occupied Syria or calling them Israelis and then saying they're going to attack Hezbollah over that when Israel

the relationship between those populations and the Israeli government is mostly adversarial otherwise. And then if people want to look up how kind of the better ones are treated in settlements that are refused to be recognized legally by the Israeli government, that's just an interesting juxtaposition here watching this unfold. And as we think about the

the mass roundup that must be going on as we speak in the West Bank, it's worth noting this final element here, just absolutely horrifying human rights watch report

that has come out that is confirming a lot of what Bet Salem and other reporting has already shown us about the absolute, I don't want to say collapse of the Israeli detention system because that suggests that it's something that was done accidentally. The

Smotrich, oh no, sorry, National Security Advisor Ben Gavir has said, like- Don't forget him. Yeah, that he has said that he wants conditions in these detention centers to be as horrifying as you could possibly imagine, and then some. And the Human Rights Watch report-

takes all the caricatures that you've understood about torture throughout the worst movies you can think of and ratchets them up to 11. People held naked, upside down, being tortured with electrocution, sexual assault, rape. Well, I don't know if you noticed this, one of the accused rapists from that

prison facility is now going regularly going on like Israeli game shows and being kind of feted and celebrated as a way to say like look we defend this we support this so check that check that human rights watch report out yeah we'll continue to follow the story of course

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Fairly big news from Mark Zuckerberg, of all people who actually wrote

wrote in a letter to the House Judiciary Committee this week that he regrets two different censorship moves that Meta took back in around 2020, roughly, pandemic era. One was surrounding the Biden White House's, not secret at all, in fact, Jen Psaki at the time was public about this in a sort of braggadocious way, demands for social media companies, including Meta, to censor what they deemed at the time to be COVID disinformation. We can put D1 upon

on the screen and also the Hunter Biden laptop story, which Zuckerberg will get to this in just one moment, memorably told Joe Rogan, the FBI approached Meta in the weeks before the 2020 election informing Meta to be on high alert for Russian disinformation. 2021, Biden administration attempts to censor COVID content. 2020, the Biden campaign and the FBI had pressured them to censor- Well, he doesn't say Biden campaign.

Right. No, no, no. He doesn't. But we know that the Biden campaign was telling people not to run the story. Doing it deliberately. I mean, they were doing it publicly, basically. 100%. And now what's also very interesting is Zuckerberg responded in this letter to Jim Jordan, the House Judiciary Committee, where he did, of course, copy ranking member Jerry Nadler and said that the roughly $400 million that

that he had put into boosting, quote, electoral infrastructure. You can see this quote on the screen in front of you if you're watching. He will not be making similar contributions this cycle. That money was huge. And by the admission of a Molly Ball story in Time magazine, everybody remembers she described efforts spearheaded by the Chan Zuckerberg initiative. That's Mark Zuckerberg and his wife, Priscilla Chan.

$400 million contribution as that well-funded cabal. That is the word of the time. This is the language of the Time Magazine story. And there were analyses that came out afterwards saying it disproportionately boosted election infrastructure in Democratic areas. Zuckerberg in this letter to Jim Jordan said he doesn't agree with those analyses, but he won't be contributing nonetheless.

in the context of all of the concerns about what happened. That is a response, I think, probably most prominently to my former boss, Molly Hemingway, who wrote a book basically about what happened after Zuckerberg made those contributions called Rigged. And I don't know, I haven't seen Zuckerberg directly address it in a way like this before. So he just kind of seemed to be throwing a bone to the right in this letter in huge, huge ways. Now, I think

I agree with everything that he says here in terms of like directionally, I think this is all good. But he also called Trump badass recently. Remember that? Yeah. Well, he was saying the getting shot in the ear and then standing up and pumping your fist was badass, which objectively is true. Yeah, no, it absolutely is. But like, it's...

He's an enemy if he's long been considered an enemy of Trump So it was sort of which I don't know exactly why the Clinton people think that Facebook actually boosted. Yeah, absolutely Yeah, there's probably an argument to be made for that But he I mean he's been at least he lives in Berkeley or he lived in Berkeley or whatever superficially liberal Listen to what this guy said That's not so sure. That's the case the the reason I don't buy buy into as much of that no, so

On the whisk on the Wisconsin Zuckerberg, you know money that went into, you know boosting the mail-in ballots I think I think it's probably true that the that the analysis correct that the the money ended up helping Democrats But I think the reason that Zuckerberg doesn't necessarily deserve blame for that is that the reason it helped Democrats is that Trump and Republicans made the absolutely inscrutable decision of

in real time to urge all of their voters not to vote by mail. And therefore, any money you invest into encouraging people to vote by mail is going to benefit the party that is taking advantage of it. Trump, I think, recognizes that that was a fundamental mistake. And you see him now saying, we're gonna get rid of mail-in voting when I'm president.

But we haven't yet, so everybody needs to vote whatever way that you should vote. Gone is that rhetoric of don't do mail-in voting. Because it also leaves you vulnerable to chance, like in Nevada, where Democrats all voted early. And then in northern Nevada on election day, you had a giant snowstorm. Yeah. People were like, eh, I'm not going to vote.

spinning my truck off the side of the road for Trump. Yeah, right. So here's a flashback to how Zuckerberg talked about the lead up to the Hunter Biden laptop controversy with the New York Post. This is two years ago on Joe Rogan's show. Zuckerberg kind of opened up about this with some

if we take him at his word. And he seems to be genuine in this quote because it's like he's reflecting on how he didn't know what he was getting into. And I'm doing a segment on my show, Undercurrents, tomorrow on this because I found it so interesting that Zuckerberg, in his letter, cited kind of his own declining institutional trust. He says, at the time, I trusted the FBI. This is what he gets into with Joe Rogan. He's like, I trusted law enforcement that they had the best interests of the country and

we thought this was the right thing to do. So let's take a listen to Zuckerberg on Rogan. It's like, okay, if someone has spent a bunch of time searching for puppies, you know they like puppies, so if you show them a puppy video, they'll probably engage with that. But if you only show them puppy videos, over the long term, you're missing an opportunity to understand what other things that they're interested in. So even though it might not be kind of ideal for the experience today,

Carving off 5%, 10% of basically the experience to just try to expose people to different things to see if they're interested in that too ends up paying long-term dividends. So I do think that these systems have done well. If you design them with a long-term perspective and you're not just trying to kind of maximize engagement today, but you're really trying to understand what people care about and who people want to become and what their values are –

I think you can build some stuff that gets really good over time. But I do think that the design of the system and the values that go into it matters quite a bit too. So that was actually him talking about the way that Facebook and social media should be designed healthily. But in that Joe Rogan appearance, he also talked about how the FBI –

approached him. He trusts the FBI. And it wasn't that they told him you must suppress the Hunter Biden story. He said that there was a lot of daylight between what Meta did and what Twitter did at the time. He was sort of criticizing Jack Dorsey for throttling the New York Post link. I don't know if you remember this. I remember going to DMs to- They took the New York Post

A countdown. So if this is genuinely the most Orwellian thing I've ever experienced in this country, when you went to send the link, copy, paste the link into a direct message,

it would say, can't do it. We just say this won't work. Like Pakistan. Same thing. Yeah, it was the same thing when you tried to post it. So that in and of itself was pretty interesting. But it's I think one of the big takeaways here. Jack Dorsey has also said that the reporting in the Twitter files showed that Twitter was mismanaged under his leadership. He's agreed with a lot of the criticisms in the Twitter files. Basically, he's supported Elon Musk.

Jack Dorsey said it was a mistake to throttle the link. And now it's like all of these regrets. You look back and listen, a lot of people on the right are like, this is too little, too late. I mean, this is good. I'm like the only the top line for me is that this is good. But our allergy to.

government censorship is kicking back in. I think that's a good thing, that the antibodies in the American system saying, I don't care if I, you know, Mark Zuckerberg is not like a Trump supporter, no matter if he's a sort of Silicon Valley Nietzschean oligarch, he's not a Trump supporter. And Jack Dorsey is certainly not a Trump supporter, even though he's been supportive of Elon Musk. But some of these people saying, you know,

Your government should not be telling us what information can be disseminated generally. That's a good thing. That's a good thing. Apple ended up letting Parler back on the App Store. So, you know, dust settled and I feel like we actually came out on top. And hearing him talk about the Facebook algorithm is interesting from the perspective of,

What if you actually just showed people stuff? from the people you follow your friends and family and You showed your stuff to the people who follow you. Mm-hmm. What about that? Can you imagine? Why did they make everybody jump through all these hoops of? friending people and listing the thing and actually listing the things that they like and subscribing to things that they like and then they wrote an algorithm and

that says actually none of what you have told us is going to be factored in in any significant way into our algorithm. Instead, we're going to just feed you stuff and see like a rat which makes you click the fastest. Going to your basest

Human instincts. Yeah race to the bottom rather than rather than the things that you consciously From your better self and like no, I want to keep up with what my aunt's up to yeah, right Even if like I don't agree every single time but I'm curious like what what's she up to? What's my cousin up to right? They're like no you don't actually care about that what you really care about is You know seeing a seeing like a random fistfight in Milwaukee. So we're gonna give you that why Milwaukee and

I don't know. Why not Philly? Milwaukee suburbs, yeah. I say Philly. Or yeah, you want to see like... Eastern Shore. Yeah, well, I never see anything from there. That's right, that's right. Because even if you care about it, they know that they can, they're more likely to get you to spend more time. Somebody like jumping off a cliff or something. Yeah. What is it? Like, why are you like... I'm so old.

Actually, you do sound really old right now. But yeah, it's pretty, like just the, all of this was written in a letter to Jim Jordan, like these major concessions. Interesting.

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So let's move over to France where this isn't getting a ton of pickup in the American press, but an incredible, and maybe it's because the American press isn't as attuned to the like actual left. I don't know because if you're on the actual left, the story is incredibly disturbing and validating as to sort of the mushy neoliberal middle and their true, their true allegiance to what do they say? Lowercase D democracy and all of those things.

Ryan, what on earth? We can go ahead and put this tear sheet up on the screen. This is from BBC. French left backs protests after Macron rejects prime minister choice. What is going on behind that headline? So this is wild. So let's explain to people how this fifth republic, this fifth French republic works. So basically they've got a president and a prime minister. The president is the

The kind of good looking guy you put out on the national, international stage handles foreign policy. Doesn't matter if he's short. Does not matter. Short game. The prime minister handles domestic affairs. Traditionally, they've always been from the same coalition, the same party basically because that's just how it has worked out.

They may have stumbled on a fatal flaw in their fifth Republican constitution. So in the last election results, the far left finished first, the far right finished second, and then Macron and his center-right party finished third. And I guess you got some little other parts. And then a bunch of like dregs, you know, finishing after that.

So you would think, okay, fair enough. The far left gets to form a government and we go from there. Macron and the far right are like, no, we actually don't wanna see that happen. And they have the power to stop it because the far left did not win an absolute majority and they don't have anybody forming one with them. So if Macron did appoint somebody,

from the far left to form a government the right and the center right and then what and the rest of the dregs would immediately hold a No-confidence vote and oust the government so he could do that and in in Spain the king did that They had a like an 18-month standoff. That was very similar to this one and the king was like, okay fine You know what the right wing in this case was the right wing the right wing won more votes But doesn't have a majority so fine go ahead form a government and

And like backed off and let them try then they failed and then they left the center-left form of government so Macron is not even allowing that and so what the left said, okay fine. You don't like us You don't like our policies and McCrone has been very clear It's we don't like I don't agree with your like policies your politics like we don't want the left in charge You've been very clear. He's like, I don't care what the voters said so they have said, okay

Here's this 34-year-old unobjectionable woman who will be our prime minister, and we will take zero cabinet positions. They're like, that's their concession to the fact that they did not win an outright majority. And Macron's like, no, not good enough, not going to do that. And as we saw, you can put up this next element here. So he's sitting down with Le Pen.

And saying, all right, who knows what he's talking about with Le Pen in these talks. And the French left, by the way, was so concerned that Le Pen's party would do incredibly well. And the elections were in July, would do so well that they, that's the bigger context is that they all formed a coalition alliance. Right. And that's. To fend off the fascists. Right, exactly. Right.

And so now Macron is like, well, let's sit down with fascists. And so you've got all these bizarre arguments where they're saying the left doesn't deserve to govern because some of the people who voted for the left weren't actually voting for a left wing agenda. They were only voting to block Le Pen. Right. So it's illegitimate. Okay. A, that's true. B, like psychoanalyzing why somebody voted for somebody is ridiculous. You have no idea. They voted for them. Yeah.

See, that's the only reason anybody has ever voted for Macron. So by Macron's own reasoning there, Macron is thoroughly illegitimate. Nobody has voted for Macron. And every time he has won, he has won because he's not Le Pen. And so here he is. So now...

So I talked to Art Goldhammer, who we've had on the show before, who's a French, he lives in France, an American who lives in France. He translated Piketty, he translated Tocqueville. He's great. And he's like, I have no idea where this ends. Usually he's like, here's where this goes from here.

And he's like, it has the feel of the beginnings of an extremely bitter divorce. Like there's absolutely no good faith among any of the parties. And he's like, it might be a fatal flaw in the Constitution. Very poignant. Because there actually is no way out. And to make people understand why this is happening now in this new era where we have kind of far left and far right both rising,

For the entire history of the French Republican and this goes for other countries to the dominant parties Were the center-left and the center-right? and so if if let's say this let's say McCrone center-right party wins the most votes the center-left wins the second and Then the far left and far right are off in the background somewhere the center-right would then grab a couple of little tiny parties from the far right and they form a government and

Center-right wouldn't complain because they didn't win the election and they get to be part of this governing coalition and in general the voters wouldn't complain because they'd say okay this is fair enough like a majority of people voted either for a center-right or a far-right government now when the dominant polls are The far left and the far right it's not clear who the far left forms its coalition with mmm because okay, let's see let's say the far left forms its coalition with the center-left and

Who then is the prime minister? Well, it would only be fair that it's from the far left because they won the most votes. But at the same time, a majority of voters voted against the far left. You know, let's say 55, 60% wanted center left over all the way to the right. So the center left party says, no, actually, if you want to represent the median voter,

It should be us. But there is no median voter anymore because you're using this old spectrum rather than understanding that actually you've got different wings of populism

that are the overwhelming majority against the kind of fading neoliberal elites. And so the old frame just doesn't work for the new politics. It's so interesting you say that because I was just going to bring up this, I'm reading from this unheard article, Keir Starmer doesn't understand populism because Keir Starmer gave a speech this week that was...

described as quote gloomy by a lot of the press. And the author of this article makes a really, really good point that actually really the failure when Starmer was talking about quote the snake oil of populism in his speech,

He's pinning all of those riots, the Southport riots that we talked about a couple of weeks ago on, quote, 14 years of Tory failure, just pinning the blame on the Tories. And this writer says, the public has a sense that the roots of our national woes go much deeper, more than 40 years of a broken economic and social settlement, which we owe to Margaret Thatcher and Tony Blair, as well as their heirs, Gordon Brown, David Cameron, and Rishi Sunak.

The mantra, there's no alternative, has produced decades of rampant economic and social individualism dressed up as progress when in reality we've gained individual freedoms yet lost stability and common solidarity. This is connected to what we talked about in the first block of the show today about people like RFK Jr. and Tulsi Gabbard founding common cause with Donald Trump because he's somewhat heterodox.

in the Republican Party on particular issues, how he uses government, etc. But still not even that being the perfect marriage. Our categories don't work anymore. They only kind of superficially ever did for the average voter. And everybody right now is just spinning their wheels and reeling to try and figure out the solution.

But people like Keir Starmer and Emmanuel Macron and arguably Kamala Harris, and maybe even to some extent you could say Donald Trump, they have no real idea how to address this. And James Pogue wrote that story about Chris Murphy for the New York Times. I don't know if you read it about how Chris Murphy is genuinely trying to figure out what Democrats can do to address some of the concerns that the new right is tapping into.

He's like the only person in the Democratic Party other than Roe who's like Rokhanna over Well, you should talk to you. It was like actually seriously engaged in that project You see basically none of that from the storm or McCrone Harris's of the world, right? Yes, that's right. And so the we can put up this third element here from this McCrone Ally by Roo So or this is a great great follow

I don't have my glasses on, so I can't tell exactly what his ad is. What is Arnaud Bertrand? He's great on so much stuff. Yeah. What is he? He's fantastic. It's Arnaud Bertrand. So R-N-A-U-D-B-E-R-T-R-A-N-D. And so he's talking here about how this Macron advisor is just very explicitly saying that it's the left program that Macron objects to and that they as the establishment elite object to and that they're going to cling to power against Macron.

against this, come hell or high water. The fact that this is happening at the exact same time as they arrested the Telegram founder in Paris, I don't think is, I think it might be a coincidence in the fact that they're lining, that events are lining up at the same time, but

It's similar to the the trends are similar the establishment elite is going to need censorship and authoritarianism to kind of lock down this this this bubbling rise of Populism and so what Byron was arguing there is he's stating he's stating a fact which is that the left did not win an outright majority and so but then he goes on therefore they should not be able to govern and

It's like, but whenever the center left or the center right won 45% of the vote, they were not told and were the leading vote getter by far. They were not told, oh, you only won 45%. You don't get to govern. If it's the center left, the left wing parties would join with them and they'd form a coalition. If it's center right, the right wing parties would join with them and form a coalition.

But the center is unwilling to do that for either pole. Right, right. And so. Center left and center right too. Whether it's Mitch McConnell or Chuck Schumer. Right. And so, although in our system, they seem a little bit more willing to do that. And also that our centers are holding better.

Yeah. Then maybe are the center and the Democratic Party is holding better than the one in the Republican Party? Yeah. No, I mean, that's the question. It's like, how much longer does that last? I pose that question actually to Rick MacArthur, who's the president of Harper's and publisher of Harper's, because he wrote a story for Spectator World about

how Democratic elites have been able to control the party so well over the course of the last several decades. And the Sun undercruits, too, where he's... And there is such a difference between how Republicans totally lost control when Donald Trump came along and Democrats...

fought Bernie Sanders tooth and nail in 2016, were able to use the muscle of the DNC to shut down the Sanders campaign or to hamper the Sanders campaign. Did it again in 2020 by getting Pete Buttigieg and Amy Klobuchar to come together. And the Republicans had basically no ability to do anything about Donald Trump, whereas Democrats actually, like the DNC, figured out how to

muscle him out of the picture and to get rid of people like Marianne and Tulsi just basically shut those campaigns down. And I mean, not shut them down, but hamper their ability to be serious contenders. It's a good segue into our next segment, which is an interview with independent Senate candidate Dan Osborne. We don't know if this will be the independent that breaks through and becomes an actual senator. But I do think it's going to happen.

Like over the next several cycles, somebody's gonna break through and do it. I mean, obviously Bernie Sanders already did it, winning as an independent in Vermont in 2006. But nobody else has been able to do it since then. Right? No, I'm not thinking of anybody who is like a fake version of that.

So anyway, up next, independent Senate candidate Dan Osborne, who is polling neck and neck with the Republican in Nebraska on a class first message.

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Thank you so much for having me on. And so we're having you on at kind of an interesting time in your race. Not only has your Republican opponent, Deb Fischer, just been officially nominated to be your only opponent, and I believe it's correct that there's no Democrat running in the race, but you really kind of

rocketed to Nebraska stardom as the leader of this strike and the leader of the Kellogg's strike, very successful strike three years ago, seeing that Kellogg's is now claiming it's closing its plant. So can you back up for people who aren't familiar with the Kellogg's story at all? Tell us about your 18-year career there that led up to the strike and what the strike was over and where we are now.

Yeah, not that I'm really ever into correcting people, but it was 20 years I spent there. 20 years, sorry. Yeah, no, no worries. Those details matter.

Sometimes, this one not necessarily, but yeah, I was a mechanic there for 20 years. Really my origin story with the union begins at COVID. You know, we all have our COVID stories, most of them not good, but I was union president during COVID. We were working, and it's noteworthy to say that there's four North American plants under the umbrella of the master contract.

And we were all working seven days a week, 12 hours a day as essential workers during that time. Kellogg's made record profits that year. They went from, well, it's not worthy to say also, we kept all plants going at 100% capacity.

So they made record profits. They went from 19 billion to $21 billion. The CEO gave himself a $2 million raise. The board enriched themselves. The stockholders enriched themselves. And our contract expired that year. We figured it was going to be a no-brainer. We were going to get our little slice of the pie. But instead, Kellogg sat across the table from us. On the first day, they said, we're going to go after your health insurance. We're going to go after your cost of living wage adjustment, which was our only form of wages designed to keep us

Even with inflation, you know how that went. And we're going to implement a two-tier wage system with no path for a lower-tier employee to move to the upper tier. So essentially, everybody's going to be on the lower tier. So for me as president, that was my old crap moment. There hasn't been a strike in Nebraska since 1972. I had to learn what that meant.

But we could not come to an agreement with Kellogg's. And so we shut down four North American cereal plants and we walked off job to preserve our wages and benefits. We all felt we were on the right side of history on this.

And I knew out on the picket line, Democrats were gonna come out and support labor 'cause that's what they do. But I was able to get two Republicans, one governor, well, one Congress person to come out to the picket line and one governor to draft a letter on our behalf to send it to the CEO, imploring him to get our people back to work. But we were on strike for 77 days.

And we got a favorable contract. But I stood up for the people when we felt we were getting wronged. But Kellogg's announced that they're closing the plant in Omaha in 2026. And a lot of people online, a lot of...

Keyboard Cowboys and Cowgirls Online blaming me in particular, but the union for that closing. Well, there's also three other plants in the network in North America that are under the same master contract that get the same wages and same benefits, but they only announced Omaha.

But two years is a long time. A lot can happen. I have a good feeling that this is not going to occur the way they are saying it's going to occur. This could even just be a negotiating tactic by Kellogg's to try to get the union to take concessions. We'll see. But again, two years is a long time. Is any of it political? Do you think they announced this closure two years later to try to...

Torpedo you? You know, I thought about that and, you know, I appreciate the thought that I'm somebody special enough for a corporation to announce we're going to close a plant because of one guy. And so, no, the answer is absolutely not.

Well, let's put this element up on the screen. These are the polls from FiveThirtyEight. Obviously, it's incredibly difficult for an independent candidate to poll as closely as you are coming in. This is a YouGov poll. You can see right there at the top from FiveThirtyEight's collection of polls, 500 registered voters, and it finds Deb Fischer up. By the way, she's running for her third term

Right. So she's been in office since 2012. She's up by two points in that YouGov poll. I imagine that's within the polls margin of error, 41 to 43 percent. You're at 41. She's at 43. And you've got that Deb Fisher poll that has. Yes. Just absolutely crushing you. Yes. She has a poll out that has her up 26. But then there was a poll from your camp that found you guys tied up.

And these are all since the last thing that we mentioned are since July. So the polling is showing a competitive independent candidacy. There's no question about it. So my question for you is why run as an independent? A lot of people who are aligned with labor jump in as Democrats, obviously. So I imagine some of our viewers outside Nebraska who aren't super familiar with this race are

might say, why be independent here? Why not just go with the Democratic Party? What's your answer to that and how do you sort of describe your own politics?

Yeah, well, I became an independent in 2016. I became disenfranchised with the two-party system. I see this huge divide that is being created, seemingly both sides catering to their extremes and leaving people, I feel like, me out of the middle. Like, there's nobody like me in the United States Senate. And by that, I mean less than 2% of our elected officials in both the House and Senate come from the working class.

I get frustrated when I see their corporate agendas. For example, 90% of Deb Fischer's

campaign funds come from corporate super PACs, but we're being different. I'm not taking any corporate money. I don't want to be beholden to corporations if elected. I don't want to be beholden to a party boss if elected. I want to be beholden to the people of Nebraska who elected me because that's the way the framers of the constitution set this whole thing up, right? A government for and by the people. It's not a government for the 1% in corporations. And that's where

You know, when I do deep dives into our government and our politicians, that's my findings. So I want to be different and I want to bring it back to the people. And what has Deb Fischer won by in the past? And what is a typical Republican win by statewide in general?

Yeah, you know, she's never really had any competition either in the primary by, I think, design. Parties like to support their incumbents, which I completely understand that. And, you know, here in Nebraska, it's a red state. It's very conservative values here.

And I believe she wins by large margins. Trump won with about 60% of the vote in 2020, and Biden got about 40%. So how do you thread the cultural conservatism of Nebraska versus...

Any impression that you're like, I'm sure they're trying to saddle you with, oh, he's actually a liberal in independence clothing here. So what messages are you finding are resonating? Where do you come down on the kind of general social conservative spectrum of questions?

Sure. And, you know, Deb Fischer is going to paint me as a Democrat in sheep's clothing because, you know, that's probably what I would do if I was her too, right? I'm running against a Republican. There's no Democrat in the race, so it stands to reason she's going to paint that picture. But I've never been able to put myself in a tidy little blue or red box. I've always felt like I like things from both parties. But what's differentiating me is

from being a Democrat or being a Republican is, you know, my core message. And my core message is we have to get corporations out of our politics. We have to have corporate, or excuse me, we have to have campaign finance reform. We have to end things like Citizens United. We have to get the corruption and the money out of our politics in order for it to be this sound entity that is, you know,

mostly free from corruption. Again, we're being different. I'm not taking corporate money. My average donation is $35. We've raised $2.3 million. So this campaign is truly powered by the people.

But where I lean towards the right would be, you know, we do have to have a secure border and we have to do it yesterday. Both parties are to blame. They keep kicking the can down the road. I mean, we haven't had any meaningful border or immigration reform for that matter in a very long time. And also we have $34 trillion in debt. You can place the blame on both parties for that.

many administrations adding, you know, six, seven billion dollars or trillion dollars to the national debt. So we have to do things like

hold the Department of Defense accountable for passing audits, things like that. And we have to hold corporations accountable for when they start price gouging and grocery stores for jacking prices up a thousand percent. These are the things that I think we need to do because we're all hurting. I'm hurting. I'm a steam pitter for a living now. I got fired from Kellogg's after the strike. But

you know, these are the things that are taking money out of our wallets at a time where we're all hurting. So that's, that's kind of where I, I set myself apart. And,

And Bernie Sanders sort of famously independent from Vermont, obviously, but caucuses with Democrats or has long caucused with Democrats. And some people didn't even know that Bernie Sanders was actually an independent because he ran in the Democratic presidential primary, has caucused for years with Democrats. So do you have plans for how you might approach the caucusing question? Should you be elected to the Senate? Do you have plans to caucus with Republicans, with Democrats or just not caucus with either party?

Sure. I do have a plan for that. And George Norris was the last independent senator from Nebraska. He's from McCook, Nebraska. He actually set up the nonpartisan unicameral that we enjoy in Nebraska today that I think Washington, D.C. could take a few notes from. But his last term, he did not caucus with anyone.

And, you know, there's nothing in the Constitution or anywhere written that says you have to. People will tell me, oh, well, you'll never get a committee assignment if you don't choose to caucus. I would like to challenge. I would like to challenge the entire system. Deb Fischer...

early on called, you know, dismissed us and she's refusing to debate because she says, oh, this is just a political science experiment. And I was like, yes, that's exactly what I am and what campaign is. And, you know, guess what else is a political science experiment? The United States of America, our Declaration of Independence, our Constitution, that's a political science experiment. And I think it's done pretty well.

But I would like to challenge the system, not caucus with anyone. But if I feel like the people, because I want to deliver for the people in Nebraska at the end of the day. And if I feel like I'm failing at trying to buck the system, depending on who,

how the House is set up, how the Senate's set up, who's the president. There's a lot of different scenarios. I'm gonna have to make a decision on who to caucus with. And I will caucus with somebody if, again, if the people in Nebraska are suffering, but it's gonna have to be a choice to make who I can best deliver for Nebraska at that time. - If there was a bill that came to the Senate floor that would codify Roe v. Wade, would you vote to support that? And how big an issue are abortion rights in the,

nebraska's senate race is fairly conservative state but then again abortion rights triumphed in nearby kansas correct it did and it is also a ballot initiative uh in nebraska uh as is uh the legalization of medical cannabis is is is going to be on the ballot as well and you know

I always divert back to the Constitution of the United States and the Founding Fathers and how they envision the country. And they envision the federal government take care of the big stuff, the economy, the border, foreign affairs, things like that. And I don't think the United States government should be meddling in our personal affairs, whether that's at the doctor's office or our bedrooms. I truly believe that. And so, you know, would I...

would I codify Roe v. Wade? You know, that goes, that boils down to also the federal government should be taking care of our individual liberties, right? The second amendment, things like that. And so I, I believe that does fall under the category of an individual liberty. Look in my own personal life, I'm a hundred percent pro-life. I, I would never advocate for anyone that I know or love to have that procedure. But if, if,

I also know that I'm a male and I don't have a womb and I would never advocate for women to have that choice. And I know pregnancy is a very difficult thing and that it does need to be available for women who need that procedure because it could be life-threatening. So...

It's a very polarizing and very difficult subject to talk about. But ultimately, I would side on a woman being able to choose for her own body. What about the medical marijuana one? How are you going to vote on that? I didn't realize that was up. How does Nebraska not have that yet? Come on, guys. Well, I met the woman who...

is leading that ballot initiative. And she has a son that has a condition that would totally benefit from being able to give him THC to not have massive seizures. And so the fact that, you know, she doesn't have this medicine and I'm gonna call it medicine because ultimately that's what it is in this case. She doesn't have this medicine available to give to her son. And if she goes out and gets it through other means and gives it to her son,

the state can take her son away from her, this is absurd. So absolutely, I'm going to vote for that. - Well, I guess last question, have you endorsed a presidential candidate? 'Cause I assume that you're hoping that there are a decent number, I mean, you can't win in Nebraska if there aren't a decent number of Trump Osborne voters, people who vote for Trump and then vote for Osborne. How are you approaching the presidential?

Yeah, well, I approach it, I tell people, look, I will work with whoever the president is. And since I've been doing this and speaking to people who are 100% pro-Trump and, well, I'll go back to an event I had in Alliance Nebraska. They're

It's on the western end of the state. There was about 75 people at this event at a VFW, which I'm a member of. But I had a guy come in wearing a MAGA hat, an open carry pistol. I had people there riding with Biden T-shirts.

So it was a very eclectic group of folks. And we had great conversations and both riding with Biden t-shirt and both MAGA open carry hat guy, they left with Osborne yard signs because my message is simple. We need to get back to working together because at the end of the day, I'm not red, I'm not blue. We're all, this is gonna sound really cheesy, but we're all red, white and blue, right? We're Americans.

And we need to act as such, and we need to start to come back together and stop this silly arguing and this divide that's been created. And again, that's my message, and it's getting corporations, again, out of our politics, getting the money out of our politics, stop this corruption that we're seeing. I want to be different.

And that message is really resonating with both conservatives and liberals. So I have pictures with my Osborne sign out in front of a Trump tent that they were in. I believe it was Boone County, Nebraska at a fair there. They put my sign out in front of the Trump tent and I see my sign next to Harris' sign. So I love it. That's the whole message of this campaign is let's just

Let's just be one people again. All right. Well, Dan Osborne, Navy veteran, steam fitter, union leader and independent Senate candidate in Nebraska. Thanks so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me on. I appreciate you. You got it. Take it easy. Emily, what do you think? He has your vote. I mean, I don't love Deb Fischer.

I'm not surprised. I think zero people love Deb Fischer. I mean, her family loves Deb Fischer. Well, I think she's probably been good to some particular industry in Nebraska. I'd have to go back and look at it. Insurance industry, I think. That's the other thing. Nebraska is not just culturally conservative. It's actually kind of a corporate state, too, because Omaha. Yeah, there's a lot based in Omaha. Warren Buffett, and then there's the insurance industry there.

So the anti-corporate. Ag, there's a lot of stuff out there. Yeah, consolidated big ag. The anti-corporate message is gonna run up against, some people are like, hey, wait a minute. We're a corporate state here. Well, no, I mean, it's so interesting. Love it, though.

It's like we weirdly didn't even plan for this but this turned into like a realignment themed edition of counterpoints because this kind of goes with every block like we started talking about RFK Jr. In Tulsi like not having a lot of luck in the third party lane or in the independent lane or in the like populist Dem lane They talked about how that's going in France the weird journey of Zuck all throughout his realignment

I mean, it's just up to Nebraska. I the most interesting part of that actually I thought was his answer on row That one seemed like it. I just got the sense that he felt that was the toughest one in the game Yeah, I'm sure it is because on the one hand I bet the ballot measure in Nebraska will pass mm-hmm, so

And you know, I don't know but what do you think? I don't know how closely you followed him like how you know, because in it passed in Kansas, right? Well, but his version of and Sager talks about this a lot but his version of like live and let live Libertarianism is really popular with Americans and that's sort of what some of these like

pro-abortion activists have tapped into in places like Kansas is libertarians for choice. Those types of groups are- You don't want a vaccine mandate? Right. They're doing it. They're really being smart about how they're pitching this stuff in ads to voters. And so that-

His answer on that I think was was trying to channel that sentiment and it's so interesting how he's Coded and said I'm pro-life. I think he said I'm a hundred percent pro-life when you asked him that but he's also coded as a Hardcore labor leader I don't know anybody else who really brings those two things together because even Donald Trump would never say that he was a hundred percent pro-life I mean, I doubt he would you know say it like that but he's you know

not great on labor, we don't really know what we actually do. Bring in the CEO of Exxon and Steve Mnuchin and just let things go. But it's so rare that you get a combination that's as stark like that. And we'll see if it reverts to the partisan mean and he winds up losing by seven, eight points, or if he ends up kind of shocking people. A lot of money is going to come in for Deb Fischer, I'm sure. Yes, that's true. I wonder, it's a...

It's kind of a catch-22 because I think Democrats, even though, I think Democrats are pretty confident he would caucus with them if it meant giving them the majority. A pro-life or caucusing with them in the Senate? Yeah. Although, who said he would vote? God, if I rose. That's how I read his answer. But will Democrats spend money on his behalf? Or maybe then, because then it makes him look like a Democrat. Yeah. And Democrats are fatally unproductive.

existentially unpopular in rural areas. And I think just giving up is actually smart. Including Tim Walz, by the way, if you look at his margins. Yeah, even Tim Walz, yeah. Yeah, so this is a really important race to follow and maybe I'm a softie, but I just love that story he said about the riding with Biden and the open carry guys both leaving with his yard signs and them being able to just talk about this stuff.

It is awesome. I think that's great no matter what. I wonder where that Ryan with Biden t-shirt is. We could get you one. You can put it on the shelf. Maybe I'll buy that guy's off of eBay. I'll stuff it into your fish water bottle. All right. Well, we will be back if you're a premium subscriber on Thursday evening with a truly incredible debate about RFK Jr. featuring Michael Tracy and somebody who was a field organizer for RFK Jr.'s campaign, Jeff Hunt.

So that's on Thursday night. If you're a premium sub, you can go ahead to you can go head over to breakingpoints.com to get a premium subscription. You get full episodes of CounterPoints. You get Friday debate shows early. And we've got some pretty great Friday debate shows coming up. So if you want to get those early before the general public, make sure to subscribe. And then we'll be back with more CounterPoints on next Wednesday. See you then. Stay tuned.

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