7/12/14: Cenk Vs MegaDonor: Should Biden Drop Out?
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In 2016, everybody told Joe Biden to step down. Everybody was sure he was too old. Same people made the same points in 2020. Same people are making the same points now. But the democratic process and the deliberative process that chose Joe Biden is the process that we have. It is how American democracy works. The parties choose candidates and then the nation choose between them.

It's not just Joe Biden that's in mental decline if we make him our candidate. The whole party's in mental decline. If we select Joe Biden as our strongest candidate, I'm not willing to insult the Democratic Party like that. All right, welcome to CounterPoints Friday. Ryan, we've got some great, great guests today on the biggest topic, I would argue, in the world right now, which is the future of the American presidency and the presidency himself. Who do we have?

So we're going to be joined by Dimitri Melhorn, on the one hand, is a Democratic kind of organizer and mega donor who has been making the strident case in defense of Joe Biden as the best Democrat to take on Donald Trump to this day in the general election. And we'll also be talking with Cenk Uygur, founder of TYT, a man who probably needs no introduction to our audience. So let's bring in Cenk.

And Dimitri, both of you guys, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. Thanks. Thank you for having us. By the way, I should say I'm not a major donor. I'm just a nice donor. I'm like a bundler type. It's my colleagues who are the major donors. Right.

Right. You're pretty generous in your own right. I'm generous, but I'm not mega. Right. So and for people who are not familiar with the kind of the world of Democratic donor politics, Dimitri kind of represents Reid Hoffman and some other like major donors. Reid Hoffman, the LinkedIn billionaire who would qualify as as mega donor. Yeah.

and I were excited to have you to meet you over in the independent media space here hoping to see more more of you here I'm so let let's let's start with you Demetri you and I spoke

a couple of days ago, last weekend about the state of the race. It looked at that point like Biden was done for, like at least from the conventional wisdom in Washington. But you were not persuaded by that. And you said, look, you guys are overestimating your ability to change the reality here. And the reality here is that Joe Biden feels like he's still the best candidate. He's gonna stay in.

Where are you today and has anything changed about your perspectives since then when it comes to Biden's ability to win the general election? - Yeah, and thank you, Ryan. Thank you for having me. A lot of times the question comes down to whether President Biden can do the job for four more years, and that's what it comes down to. But the question that I'm focused on is what is the most likely way to prevent President Trump from having a second term?

And to prevent President Trump from having a second term, from being elected, you need someone to be able to win the nomination of the Democratic Party and also beat Donald Trump in a general election.

And for the last five years, there's only been one Democrat who's been anywhere close and only one Republican who's been anywhere close to getting their nominations back. And so we've known for kind of five years that this was the most likely rematch. And we knew that both men would have some increasing challenges compared to last time, you know.

Biden and Trump, neither of them is the same man they were four years ago. And so the question is, did that debate fundamentally alter Biden's electability more than the things that we've learned about Trump and keep learning about Trump, like his criminality and so forth? So that is a real question. It's a fair question. But immediately after the debate,

the swing voters seem to have not moved very much. The polls in each of the three closest battleground states have moved three points, maybe, more likely two if you look at the weighted averages for poll weight. And right now, Biden is still tied in electoral votes, sorry, ahead in electoral votes, representing 251 electoral votes. And he's basically tied within the margin of error in states representing another 60 electoral votes. So the question is,

who's better to win and whose decision is it? And if it's Joe Biden's decision, which it is, that he won the nomination, then the burden of proof is not just to prove to me. You have to prove it to the standards of Joe Biden, who's heard these arguments in 16 and agreed with them and in 20 and disagreed with them. And he was always right in those two elections and everybody else was wrong in those two elections. So I think we should have some humility here. And Cenk, how would you prove it to Dmitry?

Yeah, easy on many, many fronts. So number one, he's a 36% approval rating. No incumbent ever in American history, not just president, but at the federal level has ever won when they're in the 30s in an election year. Number two, he was at plus nine at this point in the election in 2020. Now he's in a best case scenario minus three. That's 12 points to make up. His approval rating last time when he won and barely won the electoral college election

was at 52 points. So he's 16 points behind an approval rating. These are all totally unrecoverable. It would be the most unprecedented political comeback in American history by a lot. And a guy in mental decline is gonna pull that off?

He's shown absolutely no ability to pull that off. In fact, I said that he would lose non-swing states months ago. And here we are, he's now losing three non-swing states now. New Jersey and New York are in play. So guys, what is not in dispute is that Donald Trump is a terrible, terrible guy. And we're both trying to make sure that he doesn't win reelection.

We just have a very significant difference of opinion on what is the best way to make sure Donald Trump doesn't win. And with Joe Biden, it's a lock. He's not going to pull off the greatest political miracle in American history.

Okay, so those are all the numbers, and I can give you underlying numbers. He's lost Latinos. He's lost the youth vote. He's lost almost everything, right? So the idea that it's close is ridiculous. He has a near 0% chance of winning. So that's why I've been on a warpath for nine months, because I'm like, how could you guys not see it? But all of that is a lead-up to me asking Dimitri, is Joe Biden in mental decline? No, he is in physical decline.

He's in physical decline. And the reason that I know that is because emotionally, when I saw that debate, I thought he was in mental decline. So emotionally, when I saw the first 10 minutes of that debate, I was where the House Democratic caucus is as well. I engaged in a remote medical diagnosis, even though I'm totally unqualified, because I've seen people aging and I was worried that it was mental decline. So I followed up and found out that from...

everybody, including world-class brain experts that we've hired to assess both Biden and Trump for years, that this is consistent with motor decline. And the best evidence of whether there's mental decline is the job that he is currently doing. And the job that he is currently doing, we still, today,

Joe Biden gets pulled in to be the closer in bipartisan negotiations. And we know from Kevin McCarthy's admission against interest that when he does that, he closes the deal and rolls them. We know that today, this month, he is pulled into international negotiations to close the deal. Our allies want him as the closer personally. That's why he's working 14 hour days in war zones.

I remember when I was an associate in a McKinsey and company 20 years ago and I worked the kind of hours he's working. I would have moments like that, too. And so the question is, is it age or ability? And the best evidence about whether it's ability is what kind of a job he's doing as president right now. And as presidenting goes, he's pretty good.

No, it's not. No, Dimitri, listen, first of all, I think it's the most obvious thing in the world that he's in mental decline. The great majority of Americans agree with me. And he himself admits he can't go past 8 o'clock at night. That's not a great job of presidenting. Sorry, it isn't.

He can't go to the private meetings with the G7 leaders 'cause he's too tired. He himself says all the time, besides which I don't even know what he's saying. He says he's the first black woman to serve with a black president. And that's after he had the questions handed to him, written out. These are the questions, all you have to do is answer them. We have to prove that you're not in mental decline. And he says, I'm the first black woman.

Okay, so anyways, but Dimitri- By the way, you've met Joe Biden over the decades, right? I mean- I have, yeah. And so, and he's a disaster right now. He's an absolute disaster right now. But Dimitri, it doesn't really matter whether I agree or what I think or what you think. What I'm obsessed with is what do the American voters think?

And that jury's in. Most of the polls have it around 72. One outlier had it at 80%. But even if you take the lower number, 72% of Americans think that he is not mentally healthy enough to serve. So we're going to run a guy that, at a minimum, 7 out of 10 Americans think his brain is not functioning. And he needs to be president, the hardest job, for another four years. The minute we start chanting four more years, we lose the election.

- Demetria, how do you put up a candidate that 72% of Americans say his brain isn't working? - Yeah, so I do agree with your main point, Cenk, which is that the real question is what voters will think. And I agree with you that the voters have rendered a remote diagnosis of Joe Biden that is consistent with your impression and not with the impression that I've gathered from the people I've consulted. So I agree with all of that. The thing that I think,

When you get to the data about the swing voters, what you are saying is that you would still vote for Biden over Trump, but you don't think they will. And when you cite all these numbers about how badly Biden is doing, that is all just objective, like Biden versus Biden. And the other thing that is unprecedented that we've never had before is running against a convicted felon who launched an insurrection and is now attacking juries. And so the question is not,

is Biden objectively, do people like or want him as the nominee? My whole life, the American public has been dissatisfied with the person who the major parties have put forth for them to choose. It's worse now, but that is not the question. The question is the two-way. And the two-way, all

of the models that I've seen from the most anti-Biden model, which is Nate Silver's, to the most pro-Biden model, which is 538, to all the betting markets, they all put this race within the range of Biden having a 30% to 50% chance. 538 says it's 50-50. They could be wrong. You could be right. I'm just saying that all of the aggregators and all of the models looking at the polls...

disagree with you that his odds of winning are zero, and the swing voters who you are sure will not vote for Biden, when they see Biden and Trump side by side, it's the same choice as last time, except both men have new liabilities. Biden has shown something that people generally perceive to be performance-related aging, even though I disagree. And also, Trump has acquired his relationship, he's bragged about Roe v. Wade,

He's allied himself with rural theocrats. He is a, if anything, I believe that Donald Trump has revealed himself to be more dangerous than last time. Whereas the evidence that Joe Biden can be a great president is stronger than last time because he's been one. So I think the two-way relationship

is the question. And thus far, the two-way does not appear to be moving the way you seem certain it will move. So, Demetri, what do you make of this point, by the way? I was just checking. It's very odd. We were looking at this earlier on Wednesday. Five thirty eight does say fifty two forty eight for for Trump right now. Fifty two percent chance that Trump wins forty percent. I think Biden is probably clinging to that. I think Demetri is clinging to that. But I'm curious how you would respond to that.

538's assessment that this is sort of a toss-up. So look, 538 is... That's nuts. I'd bet them any amount of money that they're like off by a landslide. I mean, that is a preposterous thing to say. I mean, 5248 on which planet? Guys...

Seven to eight out of ten Americans think his brain is not working. They're not going to vote for him. Now, that doesn't mean Blue Maga isn't going to vote for him. Blue Maga is going to vote for him no matter what. And when it comes down to election day, you know, we're all going to have to make a super tough decision. OK, because Trump's terrible. Like you mentioned the convictions.

I know, but that's already baked in. That's already baked in. It isn't moving anyone. Guys, whenever we're talking about the election, this again, I agree with Demetrius on something. We have to be talking about the swing voters, the independent voters. It doesn't matter what we think. We hate Trump. If it was just us voting, it'd be a landslide for Biden. OK, the other side hates Biden. Forget blue MAGA and red MAGA.

The middle is what matters. And the middle thinks that Joe Biden's brain isn't working. They're not gonna elect him for another four years. And so, and the other problem, Demetri, is it isn't just, hey, Biden versus Trump. Why not have a candidate that would be crushing Trump? Because Trump has those liabilities no matter what. So why are we putting up a guy that has at least the same amount of liabilities? Imagine a ticket like

Andy Beshear and Wes Moore, two young, dynamic, successful Democratic governors. One guy won twice in Kentucky. The other guy is this dynamic, great speaker who's the governor of Maryland. My God, imagine how excited Democrats would be if they had that ticket. We would crush Trump. Why do we wanna, I mean, at a bare minimum, risk losing? In my opinion, guarantee losing.

And I don't like there's no planet where a guy is 36 percent has a 48 percent chance of winning. A guy is 36 percent. An incumbent has a zero percent chance of winning. It's literally never, ever, ever happened before. And so you're saying that Biden is as great a politician as AOC was in her run against Joe Crowley and way better than that, way more dynamic than that.

because it takes an AOC like miracle to be to win at this point. So why don't we pick someone better? What is wrong with us? Why do we want to pick our worst candidate instead of our best candidate? This is a no brainer as long as you're not in mental decline. Yeah. What is wrong with us?

Nothing. You guys have the exact emotional reaction that I had when Trump came down the escalator, which is panic and outrage that this is going to happen. And when the beginning of the debate happened, I was feeling the same set of emotions. However...

We all have to check those emotions against objective reality. So there's two major claims that Cenk made that I think are objectively false. One is that the negatives for Biden are new to swing voters and the negatives for Trump are baked in. That is something that we believe because we talk about them all the time.

The observation that I have made of swing voters and their poll movement since the debate suggests that actually the opposite is true. The truly marginal voters who, you know, it's the very few people who at this point with these two men are still not sure which way they're going to go or whether they're going to vote. That's an unusual crowd. And those people are bathed in the warm glow of Fox News and TikTok, and they already believe

that Donald Trump, they already believe that Joe Biden is as bad as the first 10 minutes of debate all the time. They already believe that. And they don't know anything about Donald Trump's weaknesses because the MAGA media pundits have closed ranks in matching outfits around his trial.

The second thing that I think is objectively false is that someone else can easily beat Trump. And I appreciate the instinct. I certainly wish that were the case. But if you look around the world, young and talented and handsome politicians like Justin Trudeau and Emmanuel Macron actually have lower approval ratings

than Joe Biden, and it's true, they just do. And if you look at all the people who Trump has flattened in his run, all of them look a lot like the Andy Beshear Westmore hypothetical, like surely a Ron DeSantis, a Hillary Clinton, a Jeb Bush, a Marco Rubio, surely those kinds of people can beat

someone like Trump, and it turns out they can't. So I think we have to just be honest and recognize that regardless of our take on it, there is something about Joe Biden that prevents Donald Trump from running his preferred plays. His preferred plays are the system is irredeemably corrupt,

The people in it are irredeemably corrupt. And the reason it's important that you stop their corruption is because they're attacking Christianity and they're attacking white people and they're attacking men and they're leftist radicals. And all of those things, Donald Trump and his movement choke.

on trying to make that happen with Biden. Donald Trump got impeached to try to make people think that Joe Biden was corrupt. They spent so much energy, it doesn't work. I think we just have to recognize in this environment, as much as I have imagined, you know, Wes Moore and Gretchen Whitmer and Josh Shapiro and Amy Beshear, the bench is great, but we will have four months. If Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, if the Biden-Harris ticket were to release their delegates right now, there would be a scramble. And during that scramble, the other side would be demonized

Bashir and more, whoever we put up. And if you didn't like what happened to John Kerry in 2004, do not watch as your dream candidate of the future gets destroyed as they're being introduced to the American public.

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Cenk, I wanna throw that back to you with also the question about whether this polling dip that we've seen is potentially temporary. If let's just take the fantasy of Democratic elites right now, Joe Biden does a great speech, or the White House I should say, Joe Biden does a great speech at NATO. He has this great press conference. He just nails it, knocks it out of the park.

The dust kind of settles, people see it's not as bad as maybe the debate made it look and the polling recovers. Is there a possibility of that? And then also respond to Demetrius points about the other candidates as well. All right, let me one step at a time here. So first, there is no chance of recovery. He's losing New Jersey.

We're having a fantasy conversation over here. He's losing New Jersey and he's in obvious mental decline. He's not gonna, even Democrats acknowledge there's no way in the world he makes it four years. So we're asking the country to vote for a guy that we all know isn't even going to make it four years in terms of being mentally healthy. That's nuts. That's totally nuts. So in terms of the ability to make a comeback,

I wrote all the way back in 2006 about how Tim Russert was wrong on Meet the Press about his narrative of comeback for George W. Bush. I'm like, you just made that up. This brother doesn't have a narrative of comeback in him. He's not capable of it. He's not smart enough.

And all that George Bush did from 2006 to 2008 was slide in the polls because he was a disaster. And we were right about that. People want to wish a narrative of comeback into reality sometimes. Joe Biden is not like George W. Bush. He was a perfectly competent person for most of his career, whether I agreed with him or disagreed with him on policies.

and those great deals that Kevin McCarthy brags about. Of course he brags about it. Joe Biden, his entire career has been handing Republicans every deal they ever wanted. His idea of a compromise is you get 95%, I get 5%. But that's my policy difference with him. But at least he was sharp and he got those things done. That's not his issue now. His issue is massive, obvious, blatant...

mental decline, let alone the fact that he thinks that his uncle was eaten by cannibals. He's always had a problem with sticking to the truth. So this is not the, if you think this is the best candidate that the Democrats have, you are greatly insulting the Democratic Party.

No, the Democrats have tons and tons of way better candidates. And look, Demetri, I get it. It's not like there's a fantasy world where you put up Beshear, Moore, Whitmer, whoever it is, and the Republicans are like, you know what, we're just not going to run against them. Of course they're going to try to smear them. Of course. And will that have some degree of effect? Of course. Will it be a little bit of risk? Of course. But the much greater risk is losing New Jersey.

The much greater risk is not just a loss, Dimitri, but a landslide where Donald Trump gets to walk out there after the election and say, I just won all of Congress and I just won a landslide victory past the swing states that nobody thought I could do. That means I have a

mandate to do whatever i want and that is definitely the direction that we're heading last quick thing on trudeau and and macron no when they were young and energetic and knew they won they

They're losing now because they're the incumbents. People hate incumbents. All across the world, people want change because we live under corporate rule and they know it in their gut. So this is a divorce from Biden's particular situation, but that's another giant anchor that is dragging him down. Everything that goes wrong in the country is blamed on the incumbent. It's easy pickings for the Republicans to attack, attack, attack. Bashir and Moore and Whitmer and Shapiro, they don't have those problems.

So what are they going to do? Attack them on the problems of Kentucky? First of all, Kentucky's doing great under a Democratic governor. So the risk is infinitely higher by sticking with Joe Biden than it is with coming with a dynamic new team that also, by the way, has the advantage of two more advantages. One is

Again, Demetri's not totally wrong about a lot of Biden's problems are also baked in. A lot of people thought his brain was melting earlier. That's not a great thing. That's not a thing to bring. And so Bashir or whoever it is would not come in with those baked in problems.

They wouldn't have the incumbency problem and they wouldn't start out in a hold and they would start and the whole country, Dimitri, this entire election has been begging for another candidate. They don't want these two. Imagine if by a miracle the Democrats gave them what they wanted.

a different candidate, as someone who was young and successful and could obliterate Donald Trump in a debate. Put me against Donald Trump in a debate and watch me humiliate him. Instead, we had a guy who lost to him. Why are we doing this to ourselves? Why not pick someone better?

And Demetri, to his point real quickly about New Jersey, in the spring, we don't have many polls, not many high quality polls, but in the spring, Biden in New Jersey was up about five, six points with Kennedy polling high single digits. There was a poll in late June that has Trump 41, Biden 40, RFK Jr. at 7%. So

uh, respond to anything else Jenk said, but I did just want to say like, so that is the, the Jersey poll. How, how nervous does it make you to be talking about New Jersey in, in July of 2024? Um, so, um,

There are many things, obviously Cenk and I have been both in our own ways trying to resist this fascism, this fascist movement. And so this is the first time we've really talked about it. And I think there's a number of things about which we disagree. Probably the easiest thing to do rather than dealing with all of it is just to quickly say two things and then get to the main point. Number one, I actually don't worry about New Jersey. I agree with Cenk that a landslide win would be bad, but I also think a narrow win would be bad.

I think if the United States of America hands power to that movement, the Trump movement, with all of its criminality and all of the Project 2025 stuff, we're not getting it back because the Supreme Court and Congress do not have an army and Trump will. So my version of this is as bad as it is to lose the landslide, just losing to that man is equally bad. In terms of the issue about replacing Biden with someone else, you know, a

I mean, Rishi Sunak replaced Liz Truss and it didn't matter. The incumbent's still the incumbent and a replacement doesn't work. But the main point is, let's just for argument's sake stipulate that everything Cenk Pirs is true. Let's assume that Joe Biden is very, very much, you know, he's like Yoda on his deathbed in Return of the Dead Jedi. You know, sometimes loose and sometimes not. Just assume that, okay?

If he gets a call at 3 a.m. and he's disoriented like that in your world, he will pull together a group of people and they will make a decision. If Donald Trump gets a call at 3 a.m. in 2027, the downside risks are quite high. He could launch a nuclear strike, literally. I mean, that is more than within the realm of possibility. And America can see the difference. They can see the difference between in Return of the Jedi

Jabba the Hutt was quite vigorous and people would choose Yoda. So that's the point is, is even if you are right, and by the way, the most bearish model on Biden's odds is the new silver report. And that's 30%. So even if I concede that the 50% number is wrong and the betting markets are wrong at 40% and you're right, it's still 30%. And that's worth fighting for.

We have to get to, I think one of the, I mean, it may be Ryan and I agree on this. I think the most important question here, which we addressed a little bit at beginning, the difference between mental and physical decline and whether Biden is in physical decline. And we do have a clip mashup that I want to get you both to respond to here. Let's roll this next element. This is Biden with George Stephanopoulos and in some other places. Let's watch. Nobody said anything.

except me and the folks out there in the local uh you know race you know he said i did nothing to stop russia's invasion of of ukraine in fact he said i think i encourage russia from going i encourage i think he encouraged russia going in i mean you know i'm reading from the list of lives

First of all, he was made up quote, suckers and losers. I was with, he called Americans in the cemeteries from World War I, suckers and losers. And so this guy's gonna have to start to answer for what he did. I'm not letting- And if you stay in and Trump is elected and everything you're warning about comes to pass, how will you feel in January? I feel as long as I gave it my all and I did the goodest jobs I know I can do. That's what this is about.

So, Demetri, NBC hosted a neurologist named Dr. Tom Pitt, who you may have seen this, who said that he would fail someone or someone would be failed in medical school if they didn't diagnose a person displaying those symptoms with Parkinsonian, whatever it was, Ryan, Parkinson's or this variation of Parkinson's. None of us are trying to get our medical degrees. Yeah, thank goodness. That would be bad for everyone. But you're maintaining, Demetri, that what we see from Joe Biden reflects physical decline, but not mental decline.

Yeah, so the George stuff. So a couple of things. One, you might want, I mean, the whole point of why this is an important conversation from my perspective and why we're out there so much is you can do that mashup reel for Donald Trump and it's way scarier.

Right. You know, and if you do, there are plenty of psychologists who have jeopardized their careers by remotely observing that Donald Trump is a dangerous man who cannot distinguish truth from reality and whose mind is broken. In the George Stephanopoulos interview, what are some of the other things that Biden said? Biden repeatedly insisted that it was his decision, his problem, his fault that

that the debate went poorly. All around, people were urging him to throw staffers under the bus for debate prep. And his top priority in this limited period of time to talk to George Stephanopoulos that he insisted on several times was to make sure everybody knew the buck stopped with him. That is why he is a good president.

That is why he builds a good team. That is why people trust him. That is why international leaders trust him. That is still true. And Donald Trump, Joe Biden took responsibility in that Stephanopoulos interview, that one Stephanopoulos interview more than Donald Trump has his entire life.

So the comparison, you know, I've had grandfathers and family members who have had Parkinson's and have had Alzheimer's and strong as an ox. And there are differences. And what Biden showed in that interview with Stephanopoulos, as well as in his interview with Morning Joe, is the kind of role that you get. And people are criticizing him for reading off of a list, reading notes. I have notes right now.

Presidents should be using notes when they're presidenting, I think. And they're upset with him for having actually the only psychologically healthy response to this terrible moment, which is to say, Donald Trump could be president and I can only do my best. That's the only psychologically healthy response. And so in all of these things, I'm like, Biden's right.

Hi, I'm Katie Lowe's. And I'm Guillermo Diaz. And now we're back with another season of our podcast, Unpacking the Toolbox, where Guillermo and I will be rewatching the show. To officially unpack season three of Scandal. Unpredictable. You don't see it coming. It's a wild, wild ride. The twists and turns in season three. Mesmerizing. But also,

Also, we get to hang out with all of our old Scandal friends like Bellamy Young, Scott Foley, Tony Goldwyn, Debbie Allen, Kerry Washington. So many people. Even more shocking assassinations from Papa and Mama Pope. And yes, Katie and I's famous teeth pulling scene that kicks off a romance. And it was peak TV. This is new Scandal content.

content for your eyes, for your ears, for your hearts, for your minds. Well, suit up gladiators, grab your big old glass of wine and prepare yourselves for even more behind the scenes. Listen to unpacking the toolbox on the I heart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life and marriage. I don't think he knew how big it would be, how big the life I was given and live is.

I think he was like, oh, yeah, things come and go. But with me, it never came and went. Is she Donna Martin or a down-and-out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred, Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast Misspelling. When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words.

That I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Cheaters and Backstabbers. I'm Shadi Diaz. And I'm Kate Robards. And we are New York City stand-up comedians and best friends. And we love a good cheating and backstabbing story.

So this is a series where our guests reveal their most shocking cheating stories. Join us as we learn how to avoid getting our hearts broken or our backs slashed. Listen to Cheaters and Backstabbers on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

So, Cenk, let's say that Biden does end up stepping aside. In that hypothetical, there are a lot of Democrats who are saying that, okay, it's Kamala's and we're all going to rally behind Kamala. Cenk, where are you on that? And what do you think Democrats should do in order to get a new nominee if Biden does drop out? And we get Dimitri's take on that as well.

Yeah, so I'm going to answer that in one second. I just got to mention a couple of things that were mentioned earlier. So first of all, I think Biden is the goodest candidate. When you're trying to prove that you're the best candidate and you say you're the goodest candidate,

Come on, brother. George Stephanopoulos said today, yeah, after the interview, I don't think he can make it another four years, which goes to the 3 a.m. point that you made, Dimitri, which actually is a point that one of our members on Young Turks made, which I thought was so smart. You get the call at 3 a.m. You say, hey, Trump would be worse. I get it, brother. That's why we're all working overtime to try to defeat him. And Biden always says, don't compare me to the almighty, compare me to the alternative.

But the alternative isn't just Trump. The alternative is a better Democratic candidate. And so when that 3 a.m. call comes in, you're saying the administrative state would handle it. But then we're putting up the administrative state as our candidate. And what are we going to do, pull a Feinstein and wheel him around for four years and pretend he's president when the administrative state is the president?

And then we're saying we're trying to protect democracy. That makes a mockery out of democracy. We cannot go in that direction. We have to be the defenders of democracy. We have to be the defenders of truth. And with Joe Biden, we're in a massive hole on both lying, because he's, in my opinion, and in the opinion of 72% of Americans, clearly lying about his mental condition.

And, you know, we want stability and someone to make the right decisions. Here we go again. Right. And so these are two giant problems that other Democrats wouldn't have. So now that goes to Ryan's question. Well, before we go to Kamala, because I think that's a really important point that I want to hear Dimitri's response to. That is that is my read here that Democrats are sacrificing all of their credibility when they say that democracy is on the line. And then and then also saying, but actually it.

the president is kind of overrated, whoever the president is, just the administrative state is going to run it. Or by saying something that people don't believe with their own eyes and that they don't have the credibility to lose. So I

How concerned are you about about Jenks point there that if Democrats are running on the idea that if actually things will be fine, there's a whole state, there's a whole apparatus of advisers around him, that that undermines Democrats credibility with voters when they when they go to say we're here running to defend democracy?

So there's two things about that, Ryan. One is, remember, I was stipulating, let's assume that Cenk and the 72 million Americans are right. And let's assume all that. Even then, the team around Biden and the instincts of Biden, the instincts to take personal accountability. If you guys are right and lost it, then even his lost instinct, his instincts sort of take personal accountability. That's significant.

The broader point, however, is that actually I don't agree with these points. I don't agree. Like, it is true that, you know, for a long time, humans looked up at the sun and saw that it circled the Earth. And we saw it with our own eyes. And, of course, any alternative was silly.

And then some math. And then we're like, oh, right, actually, the Earth circles the sun. It is possible to do math, check your priors, check your eyes. And in this case, this is a guy who is competent. And in terms of his ability to beat Trump, to be clear, it is a close call as to whether there is another human being other than Joe Biden who can unite the Democratic Party and defeat Donald Trump. To date, he's the only one who's done that. He's the only one who did it last time. He's the only one who has done it this time. And the reason he's done it

You guys are talking about a bunch of things that are bad about Joe Biden, and that's fine. I'm not saying they're not bad, whatever. The important thing is there are also things that are good about Joe Biden, things that the Americans trust about Joe Biden. The MAGA global movement has spent an enormous amount of money and resources to persuade swing voters that Joe Biden is corrupt.

And it's failed. It succeeded against everybody else, but it failed against him. That is his superpower. People cannot unsee Biden's honesty and decency any more than they can unsee Donald Trump's business acumen. Now, I think Donald Trump doesn't have any business acumen, but I'm not going to be able to persuade swing voters of that. It's baked in. Same thing for Biden. Biden has a unique, grand strength that makes him uniquely good against Donald Trump. And that is what he believes, and that is what I believe.

Now, you don't believe it, fine. But remember, it's his decision. He was the nominee. So I...

I am not saying that, I very much believe that the presidency is at stake. I very much believe that which of these two presidents is president matters greatly. I very much believe that Biden is the sort of person, even if he was all the things Cenk said, he's the guy who keeps a Trump prosecutor in place to put his own son in jail. He's the guy that sits for a deposition with Robert Herr, even when our ally is being attacked on October 7th. He's the guy who will step down peacefully

If he loses this election, even though Donald Trump has promised to use the state against him, these are indications of a tremendous commitment to the rule of law. And for us to judge that someone else would be better than Biden, sure, that's debatable. I don't think so. He doesn't think so. And, you know, the Democratic swing voters continue. Yes, they don't like him. But if you compare him to the other alternative,

Cenk, any response to that or should we talk? Yeah, real quick. Guys, Trump's two biggest problems, like we all agree and have said before, is he's a giant pathological liar. But now the country thinks Joe Biden is lying about his mental health. A huge percentage of the country thinks that. Up to 80% of the country thinks he's lying about his mental health.

That is, so there goes your advantage against Trump. In fact, when they poll it now, more people think Biden's lying. So why are we giving away all of our advantages? The second giant problem with Trump is that he won't let go of power. That's why we had January 6th and his coup plot and all of that. And what's Joe Biden doing now? He won't let go of power, even though he's clearly the worst candidate for the Democrats. So there goes our two best talking points. And look, Dimitri,

You could easily, like you said, all the business acumen for Trump is baked in. That's not true. Put up a candidate that is tough.

Like for example, look, I could tear down his business acumen in one debate. I could totally and utterly embarrass him and create a giant national conversation about what a loser he is, how he went bankrupt six different times. That he couldn't manage his way out of a wet paper bag. He's daddy's little boy and he lost daddy's $400 million. Then he lost his second daddy's $400 million. That was the money that Jeff Zucker gave him through The Apprentice.

the biggest loser in business history in America. Why didn't Joe Biden say any of that? Why don't they actually fight him? And instead, Joe Biden said that he was going to defeat Medicare during the debate. This is madness, total utter madness. And as I said last night on social media, it's not just Joe Biden that's in mental decline if we make him our candidate. The whole party's in mental decline if

we select Joe Biden as our strongest candidate. I'm not willing to insult the Democratic Party like that. And so that's where I'm at with that. Now, in terms of Kamala Harris, we want to make the same mistake again. We want to anoint? Stop anointing. The Democratic leadership, honestly, I think are a bunch of morons.

You want those guys to pick the best leader? They almost always pick the worst candidate. They picked Hillary Clinton and they were positive she was gonna win. What happened? You lost, you don't know what you're doing. And not only did you lose, you lost to an imbecile. It's humiliating. And here you are again, losing to an imbecile. And an imbecile who tried to coup against America, who has the 34 felony convictions that people love to talk about. But yet the Democratic leadership in their infinite stupidity

are still losing to him and now might lose to him in a landslide. No, I don't want a Democratic leader anywhere near anointing a leader. And I don't care, oh my God, oh, she's the VP. That has nothing to do with the candidacy. That's just for the presidency. So something, God forbid, happened to Joe Biden, then she's the president. That's great, of course, of course. There's no question about that. But in terms of the candidate, for once, why don't we pick the strongest candidate? These are the delegates of the convention are all Joe Biden delegates.

Don't worry, they're not going to pick a progressive. They're not gonna come with incontinence of a progressive, okay? There's no way it's Bernie or anyone in that camp. They're just gonna pick between two corporate Democrats. Everything's gonna be okay, okay? But just that's like the last piece of democracy we have left.

At least let the delegates decide instead of a bunch of 80 year olds in a closed room somewhere that go, oh, what do you think? I don't know. Let's pick somebody like Joe. No, no, let the delegates decide. And Dimitri, isn't there a possibility that

by letting a hungry, a public that is hungry for some type of relationship with its government, letting the public have that through an open convention could break something, could kind of break the spell that Donald Trump has over his ability to just kind of dominate the airwaves and could connect the public to the Democratic Party through the spectacle of an open convention.

So all of you are making assumptions about the way that the American public chooses its president. There are assumptions that I do not hold. I do not believe that asking 2,000 delegates to choose on their own

what they want after 14 million Democrats have voted is a low-risk endeavor. I don't think that asking 2,000 delegates to reject the primary votes and decide on their own is a pro-democracy move.

And I don't think an open convention in Chicago that manages to get the incumbent to step down is guaranteed to keep the White House. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's how Richard Nixon won in 1968 exactly. So the question is not whether...

Cenk and I can persuade a group of people that are rational that Donald Trump is a business failure. It is that I have tried that, as has, as did the Hillary campaign, as did the Biden campaign, and it doesn't work.

We break our pick on that when we're in front of a general audience because they can't unsee the brand of The Apprentice. Similarly, the MAGA media has spent, I think, over a billion dollars, if you include government action, persuading the public that Joe is corrupt. And maybe they think he's lying about health right now, but in general, swing voters do not believe it. So there are some things that cannot be unseen in this electoral environment. And

Again, I think you have to be conscious of what's happening with the bad guys, right? The misinformation that is going to come at the nominees in an open convention as we're all debating those 2,000 delegates. The thing about those 2,000 delegates is they are much more susceptible to your influence than the 14 million voters are.

And so really the question is, are we doing the same thing in 2024 as we did in 2016? And Jen is saying that I'm the one who's making the mistake. And I'm saying, no, no, no. Everybody told in 2016, everybody told Joe Biden to step down. Everybody was sure he was too old.

and to, for all sorts of personal reasons, unfit to either be the nominee or the president. They told him that in 2016, and he engaged in the selfless act of stepping away from a life's work because he believed them, and the entire world suffered because they were wrong. Same people made the same points in 2020, same people are making the same points now. Now, I know new people are making those points as well, so it's not a universal indictment, but the democratic process and the deliberative process that chose Joe Biden

is the process that we have. It is how American democracy works. The parties choose candidates, and then the nation choose between them. The nation is never happy, but you have to actually be able to win the Democratic Party nomination and beat President Trump in order to be a defense. And the idea that if Joe were to release his nominees and we had an open convention, fine. The idea that it's someone other than Kamala is, again, like, that's just not how this is going to work.

This is going to be conless. Why? Why do we always insist on picking the weakest candidates? Why don't we just have a real competition? You are saying real competition, meaning the process you want. You're saying we've had a process to choose a Democratic Party nomination that has been this way for decades. And now we, the media folks, are certain that it's wrong. So we want to break it.

Completely break it. Take away the votes from those 14 million, give it to the 2,000. And then, not only that, we want to break some more rules and insist that they don't do what their natural default is, which is go to VP Harris. So we alienate all the Biden people. We alienate all the Harris people. There are no Biden people.

You are just living in a bubble, my friend. That is not true. No, no, no, no, no, no. Dimitri, every Biden person would vote for whoever the Democratic candidate is, period. There's not one Biden voter who would leave the Democratic Party because it's a different candidate. No, no, different thing, Cenk. You're saying you would still vote for Biden over Trump. So that's not the question. The question is, will there be Democrats who will be furious?

If there is a movement to overturn the votes for Biden and then that also kicks out Harris, the minute that happens, you are, by the way, the Republican Party. I will tell you this, Jen, if I could get

Fox media elites and Republican elected officials to have this degree of conversation about Donald Trump, we would beat him by 10 points. He is a much more obviously worse candidate now than he was four years ago. Biden and Trump ran against each other four years ago. Biden won.

Trump has accumulated huge vulnerabilities. We are not talking about those. To be fair, Republicans had an actual primary with Ron DeSantis and other candidates. And there was a—and, Cenk, I was going to ask, maybe you can speak to this because you've been involved in the campaign space—

Democrats did not do that this time around with Joe Biden. And there's a sense actually among some people that there wasn't really ever a primary. There wasn't really ever a debate about Joe Biden despite public polling that showed a significant chunk of Democrats and independents were looking into other candidates and were interested in other candidates.

Yeah, so a lot of people, a lot of people, Jake, the reason no one ran is because everybody knew he was going to win because he was by far more popular than any other named person. And you're citing all these polls. People want someone else.

it has to be a specific someone else. So this movement to oust Joe right now is evenly divided by people who want Joe to step down so that Kamala can be vice president and people who want Joe to step down so that Kamala is not on the ticket. Those two movements will be at each other's throats the second that Biden steps down. And that has been the case since day one. You can have a primary against a sitting incumbent like Ted Kennedy did against Jimmy Carter

You still lose. You still have Carter. You just weakened Carter. Same thing for George H.W. Bush against Pat Buchanan. If you run a primary campaign against someone who is by far more popular than anyone else, you'll still get that same nominee and everybody knew it. You are engaging in fantasy politics, my friend.

Okay, so first of all, I mean, you're in favor of a guy whose brain is belting, so I don't know who's in fantasy politics land. Okay, so number one, in 1968, there was a challenge to a sitting incumbent, and it was spectacularly successful. And if Bobby Kennedy had not been assassinated, it would have worked and we would have had the presidency. It was the right thing to do to force the incumbent out.

Doesn't it depend? Is the incumbent popular? Is the incumbent deeply unpopular? Does the incumbent have a brain? Does the incumbent not have a brain? These things are relevant. And so when they ran against Lyndon Johnson, they easily knocked him out. Now, that was back in the day when we had real primaries. These days, the primaries are a joke. I was in it. Florida's like, we're canceling the election.

There's no election. Shut up. Biden's the candidate. Now, forget me and Marianne and Dean Phillips, right? Although Marianne got into like 12, that's a giant number. The people that were in the debates in 2020 on the Democratic side were at 2%, 3%, 1%. And by that metric, we should have all been in the debate, including me. But...

How about RFK? He was over 20 points. And they're like, no, no debate. Shut up. There'll be no debate. It's Joe Biden and you'll like it. And by the way, if you guys persist in being in the election, we're going to cancel them. They canceled Florida, North Carolina and Tennessee. They took off all the challenges to Joe Biden. The DNC is an obvious joke. Everyone at the DNC is picked by Joe Biden. They're all going to get fired if Joe Biden isn't the candidate. So they're hanging on for dear life. They care about their checks.

much more than they care about the voters. This is insanity. Look, we're talking about democracy and risk. So those are the conversations we were just having. So number one on risk.

You're always gonna have some risk. Just saying like, oh my God, if we pick someone interesting and popular like Gretchen Whitmer or Josh Shapiro, there's risk. Yeah, well, of course there's risk with anyone, right? The question isn't that. The question is, which side creates more risk? Does having a guy that 72 to 80% of the country doesn't think his mind is working, greater risk? Or is it greater risk to pick a successful young governor

No, of course it's a greater risk to pick the guy who's 81 and the country doesn't think is functioning. Of course it's a smaller risk if you pick a successful, great, energetic, young Democratic governor. That is a smaller risk. It is inarguable. And then on democracy. Look, since the primaries are a joke in the Democratic Party, first of all,

and we're running on democracies on the line? Are you kidding me? And then you cancel elections in the primaries. You won't ever allow a debate. And how stupid was that? It pushed RFK Jr. out of the Democratic Party. Now he's an albatross around our neck in the general election because of the idiocy of the DNC that pushed him out. Why don't you just have a debate? And if Joe Biden's this dynamic guy you're talking about, he would eviscerate RFK, right? And guys, think about it. If they had a real debate,

with Bobby Kennedy, Mary Ann, Dean Phillips, myself, and Joe Biden, right? Who do you think wins that debate? I mean, you think like, oh, Joe Biden, legendary politician, Democrat president. Dude, you know you're worried that he's going to lose

First of all, I would annihilate him and everyone knows that. And so if he can't withstand a talk show, a YouTube online talk show host in a debate, we're going to put that guy up as a candidate. Come on, come on, come on. This is madness. We're worried he's going to lose to Marianne Williamson in a debate and we're putting that guy up. So we're past doing a real Democratic primary.

It didn't happen, it's too late, let's do it in 2028, kick out and fire everyone at the DNC. They're the most incompetent losers there ever was. They always pick the worst candidates, they're deeply corrupt. Okay, now at an open convention, what would happen is something that looks like democracy and acts like democracy.

where people are jostling for position. They're making their case why they would be the best candidate, why they were a terrific governor in Michigan, Pennsylvania, Kentucky, and California, and the list goes on. So we would get billions of dollars in free media coverage. It would be political malpractice to throw that away. If we have a convention that is not interesting, that is not an open convention, nobody's going to watch it.

right? If you have an open convention, the whole world will watch it. Everybody in the country will watch it and they'll watch us competing over who's the best candidate. That looks like democracy. Then that candidate gets to come out of that convention super strong cuz they won the delegates, they proved themselves and they get to say, you just saw the democratic process with your own eyes. And that's why I'm gonna protect democracy and obviously Donald Trump isn't.

It's a layup. We just have to have the courage to do the most obvious thing. Hi, I'm Katie Lowe's and I'm Guillermo Diaz. And now we're back with another season of our podcast, Unpacking the Toolbox, where Guillermo and I will be rewatching the show to officially unpack season three of Scandal. Unpredictable. You don't see it coming. It's a wild, wild ride. The twists and turns in season three mesmerizing, but

Also, we get to hang out with all of our old scandal friends like Bellamy Young, Scott Foley, Tony Goldwyn, Debbie Allen, Kerry Washington. So many people. Even more shocking assassinations from Papa and Mama Pope. And yes, Katie and I's famous teeth-pulling scene that kicks off a romance.

And it was Peak TV. This is new scandal content for your eyes, for your ears, for your hearts, for your minds. Well, suit up, gladiators. Grab your big old glass of wine and prepare yourselves for even more behind the scenes. Listen to Unpacking the Toolbox on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling, as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life and marriage. I don't think he knew how big it would be, how big the life I was given and live is.

I think he was like, oh, yeah, things come and go. But with me, it never came and went. Is she Donna Martin or a down-and-out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred, Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast Misspelling. When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain. I just filed for divorce. Whoa, I said the words. Yeah.

that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Misspelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Cheaters and Backstabbers. I'm Shadi Diaz. And I'm Kate Robards. And we are New York City stand-up comedians and best friends. And we love a good cheating and backstabbing story. Welcome.

So this is a series where our guests reveal their most shocking cheating stories. Join us as we learn how to avoid getting our hearts broken or our backs slashed. Listen to Cheaters and Backstabbers on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Demetria, I've got a final question for you guys, but I'm curious for your read on that. I mean, I've been making that case in my newsletter. It's utterly persuasive to me. What's wrong with that?

I think that you guys are living in a version of America that is better. It's the version of American politics that I believe was the reality maybe in 2015. I don't think that the scenario that you're playing out is remotely close to what will actually happen in the world that Donald Trump lives in.

and in the world that this movement has infected. I think that the free media we get out of such a Chicago convention will be a lot like the free media Democrats got in 1968, which is a betrayal to swing voters that the Democrats are chaotic and that that is why you need a strong map. I also think that this entire discussion about who will beat Donald Trump

You're talking about it generically as if he is an obviously flawed candidate. I think all of you are dramatically underestimating how successful this kind of a movement can be because humans kind of want that. And we have to fight against that. And to fight against that, you need a brand

that appeals to swing voters in a way that blunts Donald Trump's direct attack. None of the candidates other than Biden have that. None of them. I like them. I will support them. Any of them as the nominee, I will go to war for them. None of them have what Biden has. And so I think you're just failing to understand the unique appeal of Donald Trump and the unique defenses that Biden has against that that make him different than all these other candidates that you're talking about.

And while we have both you here in the remaining time that we have, I wanted to broaden it out to a slightly higher ideological level here. And so for viewers who don't know, obviously, Cenk represents kind of the left flank of the Democratic coalition. Dimitri is kind of an avatar for the center left, not just an avatar, but also a significant funder.

And I'll describe it. You correct me if I'm wrong, Dimitri. One of the main PACs that you fund, Mainstream Democrats PAC, often has gone after kind of squad and squad adjacent members, arguing that it's doing so for the benefit of the Democratic Party, that those candidates say unpopular things that make it harder than for Democrats as a whole to run. That PAC is unpopular.

is tied at the hip kind of with Democratic majority for Israel, which is tied at the hip with with with AIPAC and has a kind of clear agenda within the Democratic coalition. So in in France recently, you saw and so and Cenk and I, people like me have always argued if you're going to fend off the far right, you have to have something. You know, you got to galvanize people with something. You can't beat something with nothing.

And so what we saw in France recently was interesting. The complete and total collapse of the center and the rise of the left in fending off Le Pen and the far right. And so what what did you take anything away from that? And you say, you know what, maybe Cenk and Ryan are right and we should be funneling all our hundreds of millions of dollars into the kind of left wing of the Democratic Party so that you have something to beat something with.

You're right. I just, of course not. So the thing that we- Thought we had you. Yeah, you did. The thing, look, there are situations-

where that can work. A midterm election in the United States is very different than a presidential election. A parliamentary system is very different than our system. An election that is called on a spot basis. These are all very different kinds of settings. Different democracies have different systems. Cuba had a democracy. Putin has a voting. Different kinds of democracies work in different ways. Our democracy works in this way. The parties choose nominees.

the public chooses in a presidential election. In this presidential election, there's about 5 million voters in about four or five states that are actually going to decide this whole thing. And those people live in a very specific information environment where they're basically sure that Joe is decent but old.

They're sure that Trump is a successful businessman, but a little dangerous. And it's a debate, the strongman debate is, do you need the cleansing fire of a strongman to purge the system?

Or can the system hold? In France, the center rallied to the left as a way of fighting against the right. And thank God in that midterm. And if the left is able to present someone who is a competitive good figure against Trump, God bless. The thing that I observed in 2018 is that Democrats who are running in plus 10 districts tended to have ideas for how to win in swing districts that didn't work.

And so when you've got people out there like, like Cori Bush is someone we're supporting, Wesley Bell,

Wesley Bell's a great guy. Cori Bush wants to actually defund the police. That is a very unpopular position. We have a member, sitting member of Congress who says there shouldn't be any police forces. That's deeply unpopular across the board. That is the kind of argument that the right makes when they say Joe Biden's weak. Look who's behind him. Cori Bush, a member of Congress, actually says we shouldn't have police. That's the sort of thing that we just have to beat, have to manage in order to win in this country, in this kind of an election.

Cenk, any response? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I have a lot of response. Number one, the reason why they're spending millions upon millions of dollars against Cori Bush isn't because she wants to defund the police. It's because she wants to defund Israel.

Keep it real. That's exactly what I think. Just to be clear, one thing that you said, Ryan, we do not like AIPAC. We do not agree with AIPAC. And when Democratic Majority for Israel asked us to support them, we said no because you're affiliated with AIPAC. And I think Bibi Netanyahu is a war criminal. OK, so just to be clear.

That is not why I'm appointing. Yeah, it's the MFI's relationship that has. And yeah, Cenk, in Dimitri's defense, I guess I would say he's been gunning for Cori Bush long before October 7th. Right.

Right, I was also gunning for Bob Menendez, who's pro-Israel. So just on that particular thing, I just want Democrats out who are terrible for our brand. And the two that we focused on were Corey and Bob. No, Demetri, I get it. And it's nothing personal about you at all, right? But the reality is, AIPAC is out there, and they use things like defund police, which you might genuinely care about. And by the way, I do. I think it's a bad idea. That's not the left that I'm in favor of, which I'm going to get to in a second.

But the real reason they're spending all that money against Bowman, Bush, and all these other candidates, Nina Turner, et cetera, is on Israel and Israel alone. That is the number one. They've spent $20 million in those three races alone. That is a preposterous number, and it's only because they will not bow their heads to Israel. And that's just a fact. Anyone denying that is denying reality. Okay, so that's fine. That's what's happening in the primaries. I get it. But it does connect to this.

There is a feeling of discomfort from the donor class about the delegates picking because for the first time it's not the donors picking.

And that makes them very, very uncomfortable. They like having the reins of power. I don't blame them, I get it. They're masters of the universe, they have billions of dollars and they wanna pick and they wanna buy the candidate. And in a convention, they won't be able to buy the candidate. I mean, they do because they're all Biden delegates anyway, but just loosening the reins a tiny bit, it scares the hell out of them. They're like big risk, big risk, donors will not be in charge, giant risk.

Keep it real. So now in terms of who's going to win and who's actually good candidates along ideological grounds, guys, this is crystal clear. And people can't understand it, but I think I have the Rosetta Stone. They're like, wait, why did UK go Brexit and then record victory for labor? Why did Brazil go Lula, then Bolsonaro, then Lula? Wait a minute, left, right, left, right. Everybody's going left, right, nonstop. What the hell's going on here, right?

Well, the answer is they're not going left or right. They're going for change because everyone hates this corporate system that we all live under. And they know in their bones that the politicians serve the donors all across the world and they serve corporations and their interests because they have all the money. So the minute anyone raises their hand on the right or left and says, I'm a populist and I'm not serving those guys,

They skyrocket up and win. That party that won in France, it's existed for only a month. And they didn't win because they're radical left on social issues. They won because they're a difference. They're not the incumbents, they're change. And the number one thing that works across the world is economic populism. So Ryan, I know why you characterize me as the guy on the left flank of the Democratic Party, and that is fair and that is accurate.

But the main thing I focus on is not the social issues, it's economic populism. The thing that took from Bernie Sanders from 2% to 48% in 2016 when no one expected it. For God's sake, when are we finally going to deliver for the voters? Give them higher wages through increasing minimum wage, give them paid family leave, give them universal health care. And the Democrats always say, yeah, sure, we'll do it. Wink.

And then they come in and they don't do anything. And then they go, why won't they vote for our incumbents after we betrayed every single thing we said we were going to do? This is not rocket science. Pick someone who's an actual economic populist and a new candidate, and I guarantee victory. Instead, we're going to guarantee a defeat because the donors like Joe Biden. He's a good return on investment.

And Dimitri, I think this is a good place to maybe give you the last word. And I'll add a preface that George Clooney, perhaps the most high profile Biden fundraiser, has come out today with an op ed that is just headlined. I love Joe Biden, but we need a new nominee. He writes that I was at this fundraiser with Biden for three weeks ago, and he says it was not the Joe big effing deal Biden of 2010. He wasn't even the Joe Biden of 2020. He was the same man we all witnessed at the debate.

He said the Stephanopoulos interview reinforced his opinion on that. He's calling basically for an open convention and kind of along the lines of what Ryan was talking about. So with everything that Cenk just said, I'll just toss this to you. What are you seeing that George Clooney isn't seeing? I know we've covered a lot of that ground already. And why is it wrong continuously? Why is the Cenk position here wrong that if voters really want change,

an open convention would be a great way to appeal to them. Yeah. It's not clear to me that voters want change. Maybe they do.

uh that is not i don't believe that the party that came into existence a month ago won in france because everybody digested their platform uh i think they won because everybody had digested le pen's platform it was an anti-lapen coalition uh it skewed left that's fine um but the thing about uh what sank just said and about what donors said and about what he's saying about what democratic leaders were saying

They are all saying that a process with 2,000 delegates should be elevated new in a brand new way. We should release the delegates and have 2,000 people make a decision rather than the 14 million who've already decided. And the 14 million, Cenk says, they decided because of donor influence.

And they decided because it was all set up in advance. And yet somehow they also chose Biden in 2020, right? So I just think that at the end of the day, there is a question about whether Biden is the best person to defeat Trump or not.

I believe he is. More importantly, so does President Biden. And President Biden has the nominees. So we need to beat Donald Trump, someone who can win the Democratic primary and then beat Donald Trump. He's the only one we've got who meets those criteria.

Well, Demetri and Cenk, really thank you guys for joining us. And Demetri, thank you for making a really almost unmakeable case. Like it's a really difficult one, but you're out there. You're out there making it and you may end up being right. Who knows? And Biden may end up staying in the race. So despite the fact that we thought he was out.

Cenk, thank you as well for joining us. A lot of this conversation kind of made my brain hurt. But I think it's a good thing when your brain hurts. Yeah. That's my tagline online. Cenk Uygur, I'll make your brain hurt. It's a title of your memoir. All right. As the muscles repair, it gets stronger. That's right. Well, Cenk and Dimitri, this has been fascinating. We really appreciate it. Thanks so much to both of you.

Thanks, Emily. Thanks, Brian. Nice to see you, Jake. You too, Dimitri.

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