Esther Calling - My Exes Exes Keep Ruining My Relationships
50:58 Share

So I was in a relationship with this wonderful person for about a year. He was kind, sweet, genuine, loving. We had a lot of beautiful experiences together and a lot of our relationship felt special and true. But there was one obstacle that we couldn't quite figure out how to overcome. When we first started dating, I learned that he is...

very close friends with his ex-girlfriend. And when I learned that, I had disclosed to him my previous relationship history, which was that my ex-boyfriend had cheated on me with his respective ex-girlfriend. And we were both sympathetic to each other's circumstances and wanted to make it work. I didn't want him to have to end or put restrictions on his friendship with his ex, nor did he want me to feel uncomfortable.

He assured me that it was a purely platonic relationship and I believed him. But as our relationship developed, I continued to learn more about theirs and how large a person his ex was in his life and how closely their lives were intertwined. And it was hard for me to see how I fit in his life and if our relationship could ever be as important and intimate as theirs was.

The discomfort I had with his ex-girlfriend made me very hesitant and very fearful. We had a lot of discussions about it, but recently we decided to end the relationship because neither of us could see a way to move forward. So my question is, in this relationship or in any relationship, how do you deal with

Can two people meet each other's needs without having to sacrifice a part of themselves? And how can I, in future relationships, move past my fears and truly let someone into my life the way I really want to?

Vitamin water was born in New York City because New Yorkers needed a drink that can do it all. Because we can do it all. Like walk 30 blocks in under an hour, follow four of the city's sports teams at once, and spend all day in the Chinatown Arcade. Drink vitamin water. It's from New York.

On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Join Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app today and earn your spot at the festival. Learn more at globalcitizen.org slash Vox. Pleasure to meet you.

You too. How long ago did you record this question? I think two months ago, a little more. And it was just as you were ending? Yeah. Okay. And so where do I find you today? Today I think I'm in...

I'm in about the same place. I think I'd like to focus more on the future, I guess, instead of dwelling in what could have been. I guess I'm still trying to figure out in my head if, not if, but how to kind of meet each other when we have kind of opposing ideas of what we want, if that makes sense. It doesn't have to be this

specific circumstance but it seems that this one specifically was very difficult. It's a beautiful question first of all but it is presented in a either or way. My needs or his needs, my sacrifice or his sacrifice and what I'm imagining is how we actually open up to question. Is it the fact that

He had a very close relationship with somebody, in this instance, a woman. Is it the fact that she was an ex? Would it be different if she hadn't been an ex? Would it be different? In what way would it be different? If it was a man, would it be different if you have a very close girlfriend with whom you share maybe even more than what you share sometimes with him? Is it about having a

intimate connections with other people? Or is it about the fact that he wasn't making you enough of a priority in the way that you wanted to experience with him? But it has not much to do with the fact that there was another person. It had not been another person, maybe the same thing would have occurred. So those are pieces for whom I'm sure you have thoughts and thoughts

they come up with for me just to be able to more understand what was the context where this question emerged. I think it's a little bit of both. I think it is an ex-romantic relationship that was uncomfortable for me. And that ended a long time before you met or that ended...

As you met or...? About a year before we met. Okay. Because he did have a close friend who was a girl, but they had never dated and I felt more comfortable with that. I feel like there were times throughout the relationship that I didn't feel like I was a priority compared to his ex-girlfriend. And how would he respond to that? Meaning...

Was he able to hear you, to respond to the longing, the fear, the sadness, the loneliness?

the aspiration or was he trying to protect his rights, his freedom, his individuality and being all defensive about it and trying to tell you you have nothing to worry about and why you're making such a big deal. See, that's the context. It's like the question doesn't exist outside of the dynamic relationship in which it gets played out. And that is different than just as if this

It's about, you know, how do we not make sacrifices? We all make sacrifices when we enter a relationship, if you want to call it like that. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think he was ever defensive or he never questioned why I felt the way I felt. He was very responsive to that. I don't know that he necessarily understood how I felt, but he allowed me to feel how I felt, which was good. But I think he...

I don't think he was willing to change that relationship until he knew it was going to work with our relationship. Like he wasn't really willing to let go of it until he knew something else could kind of fill it in, if that makes sense. I think it's just because they were so intimate. It was hard to... Did you ever meet her? No.

Yes. Once or many times? Just once. Why is that? At the beginning, I didn't really want to meet her because it was uncomfortable for me. And then later on, it was kind of weird that I wasn't meeting her because he and I were getting closer in our relationship and he was obviously good friends with her and it was just odd. I think...

he knew I would feel uncomfortable. So he never really, he never really made an effort to make an invitation or, which is not, is not his fault. It's just, I think he was trying to be more protective. Of whom? Probably of me. Which is in a way,

By not meeting her and interacting with her as one of the people that are close to him, she became bigger in size and the threat became bigger. And your relationship with him lived at the center of his friendship with her and his friendship with her lived in the shadow of your relationship with him. And she loomed large as this threat, right?

that was competing with you, that was taking something away from you, that was preventing him to be with you. I mean, he had ended that relationship a year earlier because it was about a friendship and a deep connection, but not about a romantic relationship, which he had with you and you with him. What did he do that made you say, I am not enough of a priority or I don't feel like...

I have my place here or I feel like there's somebody who's roaming around that I'm constantly having to contend with and compete with or that I feel jealous about or that I feel is not letting me find my place. How did that become like that? Um...

I think it was more of a transparency issue. Like, he wouldn't tell me how often they saw each other or when they saw each other. And then later on, I found out that they saw each other quite often and talked every day. And I think as I slowly got to learn those things, it just felt...

More threatening, I guess, even if it was something innocent. I guess every time I found out something, I would wonder what else there was that he was leaving out. And if I asked him the same question, how would he answer? Uh...

The question of like what? What happened to your relationship? You met this woman, you were together for almost a year. And in her experience, there was a relationship with someone that you had dated that felt ever present, incomplete, unfinished and intrusive in your relationship with her. What do you think about that?

You're smiling because you suddenly are hearing him and seeing him? A little bit. I think, I do believe that it was innocent for him. Innocent means what? That you shouldn't be scared of it? Yeah. That's what innocent means. But scared of what? I mean...

It's not like you thought they were having a secret relationship behind your back, or it was that you were thinking they were having... No, it wasn't that. I guess it was more I was scared I would never mean to him what she meant to him, I think. And I think for him...

They were just friends and they were very close. They weren't physically intimate, but they were emotionally intimate. But it was a friendship, which I know is a very beautiful thing. And I know he wanted to keep it. It's important. And I understand that. I think he just couldn't help me to see that, I guess. And to receive his love without it having to be compared to

to his relationship with her, but as something that was unique and different in its own way. Yeah. Why was he not able to do that? What was it for you that said, she means something that I don't know if I will ever mean to him versus I mean something else. And in a way that was painful to you because you ended up leaving him because something about that just ate at you the whole time. Yes.

I don't know. I don't know that he could have done anything. I think it's more, maybe more about letting me in his life more, maybe integrating me into his life. I think I just wanted to be a big part of his life like she was. And he would say what to that? You are? He would say he...

wants me to be, but I don't feel that we ever got to that point. He would say so or you say so? Both. Okay. And he would say, you're not a bigger part in my life because you don't want to come with me, you don't want to enter, you don't want to see her? Not that I don't want to. I did want to. I think I was just very hesitant because I was scared. So I took...

baby, baby, baby steps instead of leaping in. And you say, I was scared in part because it was hard for me to trust, partly because I had had an ex-boyfriend myself who cheated on me with his ex-girlfriend. So this didn't come out of nowhere.

No, they were very different people as well. From the beginning, it felt different, but there was an underlying fear from my past relationship. And you say, he tried to help me with my fear, but I don't know that he could have done more. There was something that I struggled with or held on to. That goes beyond the ex-boyfriend? You've had other experiences that make trust fraught?

I think so. I don't know that I have a specific example, but I'm usually very hesitant when entering into a new relationship. It takes me a long time to open up and really kind of let go of all my fears. Where did you learn to be so cautious, apprehensive? I don't really know. I think I've always been a bit fearful and apprehensive.

cautious. It's a little bit of my personality where I need to think everything through and make sure I have all the facts lined up and so I can make the best decision.

I think I just tend to question a lot of things, whether it's with work or relationships or anything. I think that's just how I've always been. But you know, when we say that's how I've always been, that means that I had to learn to be this way very early on. And that means it became a coping style. It emerged in a context, in a reality of my life.

And so that's what I'm asking a little bit is that if it's been there so long that you say it's how it's always been, then there was a need very early on to not take things as a given, to question things, to be very careful when you connect with people, to not trust people offhand. And that didn't come from nowhere. So since you're smiling in recognition, what did you just think about?

I know it didn't come out of nowhere, but I can't pinpoint a time in my life when. No, it's not a time. It's not like an event that makes me become this way. It's an environment. We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad-free, click the Try Free button to subscribe to Astaire's Office Hours on Apple Podcasts.

Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Babbel. The year is already halfway through, and soon enough we'll all be looking back at our New Year's resolutions and taking stock. Well, if one of your goals this year was to practice another language, there's still plenty of time, especially if you try Babbel.

Babbel is the science-backed language learning app that works. Babbel's quick 10-minute lessons are handcrafted by over 200 language experts to help you start speaking a new language in as little as three weeks.

I've been working on my Portuguese and as I've been traveling, I've met quite a few people who spoke Portuguese. And here and there, I could actually articulate a few flawless sentences. Here's a special time-limited deal for you. Right now, you get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for you at babbel.com slash Esther. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Esther.

spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Esther. Rules and restrictions may apply.

I don't know where you grew up. I don't know with whom you grew up. Maybe you tell me a bit and we can explore together. I grew up in a nuclear household. Mom, dad, brother. They're still married. They were good parents or are good parents. They can be strict but loving. In what country?

My brother and I were born here, but my parents are from Taiwan. Because they are obviously from a different country, a different culture, they have very different viewpoints than my brother and I do. Give me an example. Of course, it makes sense, but give me... What's one of them that stands out for you? I don't know. This is a silly one, but my... I think my parents have a very...

firm idea of what is right and wrong in terms of, I guess, I guess ethically. But even when I go home to my parents' house and I want to stay out later than 9 p.m., my dad gets

can get angry and say, well, that's not good. You should come home. I obviously don't think it's wrong to stay out late, but he does. That can be with anything, with school or work or relationships. He just has very rigid rules, I guess, that sometimes just don't make sense to me at all.

And what would he have said about a boyfriend that stays very close to an ex-girlfriend? Probably that it's not right. And you found yourself caught between your thoughts, your values, your ethics and his or theirs? Yeah, I think I come across that fairly often.

in my adult life. I would love to think differently, but I'm not able to fully trust myself and their voices and their values loom large inside of me. And I don't want to be mistaken and foolish to think that the world is different from the one that they have presented me with. Yeah. Say that in your own words. Um...

I've grown up and have been raised in a certain way that my parents have taught me. And I think because I respect them so much and want them to approve of me, I question whenever my own values don't align with theirs. That's very beautifully and clearly said. That is a different dilemma.

than the one you came in with. Yeah. It changes the question. This is not about how can two people be true to themselves and deal with their respective sacrifices. This is how do I carve out my own identity, my own values, my own worldview, and trust it and maintain my connection with my parents and my respect for them.

especially when I don't necessarily align with them. A part of me is entirely shaped by them and in their world and from their culture and how good they have done by their ideas and their beliefs. But a part of me has grown up here in a different culture that has a more ambiguous view sometimes around right and wrong in relationships. And I found myself

with my boyfriend, me voicing my parents' views and him voicing the views I would voice to my parents. I became them and he became me. I don't tell them everything I do. That's true. Right? I don't tell them the things that I think will make them uncomfortable.

I don't tell them the things that I think will needlessly make them react when I don't think there is anything because it's just staying out late or just whatever the just is that is supposed to say it's innocent as in it's a very interesting choice of word. And then he became me explaining himself to me the way I explain myself to them. Somewhat? Yes, definitely. Yeah.

You describe it. My relationship with my parents? Anywhere you want to take this. I think it is very... I see a face that recognizes this. The moment I said, you don't tell them everywhere you go and how late you stay out, it became very clear to you. And you saw a whole constellation in front of you. And I was trying to see what you see and feel a little of what you're feeling.

I think I do withhold information from my parents because I think I know how they'll react. It will just make them upset and we'll get in an argument or they'll start lecturing me. I kind of keep things from them. So I don't feel like they really know the full story.

me because a lot of it would just be not aligned with their values. Not a lot of it, but a chunk of it. Is your brother a witness, an accomplice? He's much better about it. He does whatever he wants and is open about it. And my parents have to accept it, whereas I do what I want, but hide it from them so they don't

Find out, I guess. Who's the oldest? My brother. And why do you think he can do it? Because he's older? Because he's a man? Because he's always been bolder? Because he doesn't care if they are upset in the way you are? Because he doesn't feel so guilty or because he hides his guilt? No.

I think because he's bolder and he doesn't care as much what they think. Are their expectations different from their son than from their daughter or not? To a certain extent, yes. I think they're more protective of me. So he can stay out till 10?

Yeah, yeah. He's a guy and he's older. I'm the younger one and I'm a girl. They give him more leniency to a certain extent and I am not given that, I guess. I think I'm still kind of stuck in this box that I want to get out of. The box is what? I do what I want but I'm continuously wondering perhaps they are right? Yes.

What if I'm mistaken? What if I trust the wrong people? Yeah. What if I don't collect the right evidence? I think all of those. I think I'm in this box, but what if I'm wrong? What if I'm not doing it the right way? What if their way is better? And what would your brother respond to that? I think he would just say,

to just do it, and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, you do it another way. And you would say? In my head, I ask myself all of the what-ifs, and I think I get stuck before I can even make a decision. So, you see, part of me is hearing this as a cultural conversation.

Sometimes it's safer to be more on the side of risk assessment than risk taking. You and your brother are expressing different aspects of the cultural ambivalence, but they are all part of the same larger whole. And that often happens in a family where each child is enacting one aspect of

of the cultural conversation between the values that we grew up with, that came from our family of origin, from our culture of origin, and the values of the society in which we've been growing up and living. What does freedom really look like in a system that embraces loyalty and so forth? That's one piece of what I'm hearing. And then the other part is, do you wonder if you made a mistake?

by ending the relationship? Is that a part of what you're asking? I think at the time and with what I had and could deal with, I think it was the right decision. I think now I'd just like to move forward and work on myself. And I don't know if in the future it would be different, but it's not something I'm opposed to. But I think for now it's...

not right in this moment. But when you answer me this way, I understand ever more so what it means to you when you say, I never felt that I would be the most important person in his life. If I'm about to differ from my parents and not to do as they would want me to do,

then being the most important person to him becomes of utmost importance. Because if I separate myself a little more from them, I find the strength and the confidence to do so by receiving the full set of arms from him. Otherwise, I end up feeling like I'm floating in nowhere land. It's like letting go of one side of the pool

To get to the other side, sometimes we do it when there's someone standing at the other side. I guess I'd like to do it whether or not there is someone on the other side. Maybe. When you say it like that, you're saying to me, or at least that's how I hear it. And by the way, I'm never right. I'm just hearing things. Just so we are clear. And then you tell me, yes, this works, this resonates, this...

Rings a bell. But when you say it like that, then you're saying, I don't want to do it because I depend on him. And I don't want to leave my dependence on her to then depend on someone else. But that's not necessarily the way it works. We meet people in the course of our lives who help us leave one side of the pool and reach the other. They give us strength. They translate. They help us live with the unknown.

They help us manage the uncertainty. Maybe at some point later in your life, but at this moment, it's okay to have somebody wait on the other side of the pool. When you will have done it a few times, then you can swim back and forth. But the first time,

I think it helps us to know that there is someone on the other side. And you probably have done that with education and with work. You have had people waiting for you on the other side of the pool in other areas of your life. And you didn't think of it negatively. Right. You saw it as a great resource, a teacher, a coach, a friend, a mentor, an author, whatever, you know. It's not that different in love.

When you learn a new vocabulary of love or of relationship or of gender relation or of the relationship between the individual and the relationship or any of those major aspects of relational life, it's helpful to have a translator, an intermediary, I guess is the word in English, no? You're not supposed to do it all alone.

In a way, our conversation today is an inter... I am an intermediary as well between different vocabularies of relationships, different vocabularies also of how we...

create family loyalty while at the same time allowing for individuality and some freedom basically the question that you posed in relation to him in your voice message is the question that you've been grappling with in your family of origin yeah that's true we are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about we need to take a brief break so stay with us

On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Watch Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app to watch live. Learn more at globalcitizen.org.com.

Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Quince. I have the privilege to travel quite often, both for work and for leisure. And as a seasoned traveler, I know that the secret to stress-free travel is to pack smart and bring versatile, stylish clothing that works in just about any setting.

And if you're looking for vacation essentials, you may want to try Quince as well. Quince offers luxury clothing essentials at reasonable prices. By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to the consumers. I just ordered a suitcase from Quince that I can't wait to take with me this summer. It's lightweight and easy to drag around.

Pack your bags with high-quality essentials from Quince. Go to quince.com slash Perel for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash Perel to get free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com slash Perel.

Basically, the question that you posed in relation to him in your voice message is the question that you've been grappling with in your family of origin. Yeah, that's true. You hear the similarity? Yes. Tell me. Um...

How can I be my own person and individual with my own beliefs and set of values while still staying loyal and integrating myself into this family? It seems very hard to me. Where in your body do you feel it? I think in my gut. A knot? A pit? A pit. A pit.

Describe the pit. It feels like nervousness, I guess, anxiety. So I am the pit, and what's my role? What do I do for her? I guess to keep me aligned with my parents. Maybe if I'm straying too far away from what they would do, it's...

kind of pulling me back, making me nervous of, is this right? Is this what I should be doing? So that's a useful function. It's a role of discernment, of cautiousness, of evaluation, of value alignment, integrity. So that's a good pit or a pit for good. Yeah, but I think it holds me back sometimes. Yeah.

So it's a pit that invites me to examine myself, but not necessarily to stop myself. It's a pit that says, hey, take a moment, look back, look around, look inside. And maybe the pit doesn't need to change as much as my relationship to the pit, my conversation with my nervousness. In fact, it basically, I could invite a conversation with my nervousness, a conversation with my pit.

rather than feeling that the pit is there to take me over, to stop me in my tracks, to imbue me with fears, with guilt, with uncertainty, with self-doubt. Okay. You know, you made me think of something. One sentence my mother always told me when I grew up was always, what helped her in the most difficult moments of her life was never to forget where she came from, who she was. And

It was a sentence she repeated to me a lot. It's like a compass. But she never told me what it meant for where I was going future. So I remember sometimes having the same, my version of the pit, you know, where I was just like, can I do this? Can I take this risk? Can I do something I'm not sure I'm capable of doing? Can I do something that I know for a fact she would probably oppose me?

Can I not follow exactly the track that she had for me because she thought it was the safest one? And was there maybe another one that was just as safe or differently safe? And I think it's a trial and error. I think it's a constant conversation with what you call that nervousness, that alarm system. And it's a conversation with many other people who are experiencing a similar cross-cultural experience.

multilingual experience in which sometimes our parents, in order to do right by us, presented themselves as more sure than they perhaps ever were because that's what they needed to do. But in fact, nobody is that certain about some of these existential realities because they are by their nature not fixed. So your brother or other people or your friends

You know, it's very helpful to have other people who translate constantly in their life between one set of norms and another, one value system and another, one sensibility and another, one sense of aesthetics and another. Sometimes it's felt as a problem, but it is often just a more complex and rich tapestry. That's for your future I'm now talking.

Okay. And it helps to be with someone who understands that richness and that back and forth and that multiple truths and multiple realities. How does that land on you? I get it. I think it's just maybe difficult to put into practice. This is not something, you know, you do and you resolve and it changes. Yes.

It is a dialogue with yourself and with the world around you that will continue. One day, depending on what you do professionally, depending if you ever have kids, this comes back. It's a theme in your life. It's not just a problem. It's a theme. It's part of the life you're going to live is that you will have this conversation over and over. But it won't always be as tight and tense as

Sometimes it will be heavy. Sometimes it will make you feel, oh my, I'm so alone with this. Who else understands this? And sometimes you will meet others and they understand it so well and you will say, oh wow. It feels like you're saying...

Or what I'm getting from it. It feels like I'm building it as I go. Maybe it's a little bit of my parents, a little bit of me, a little bit of my friends. There's no right or wrong. It's just what I make of it. Which becomes a right as well.

I mean, you're very thoughtful. You're not careless. You're not reckless. You're not outright rejecting your parents. You're not outright rejecting the world you live in. You're in a constant negotiation. So I wouldn't worry so much about not doing the right thing because you're very clearly looking for just other ways to experience what can be right without experiencing it as a rejection of your parents. So how do you honor them?

build on it, expand it somewhat because your reality is different from theirs. And that means more opportunities and sometimes more landmines. Yeah. How is this conversation? Eye-opening. What about it? I guess just that I still have a lot to...

work through. Not that it's a bad thing. I think it's a good thing. I thought it was just something that I had to deal with, but I can change it, I guess. I can use it how I want to. It's not only that you have something to work through. You have a lot to work with. But if you want to be able to try new things...

you may need to learn not how to be more certain, but how to live with more uncertainty. You want to match your parents with the same level of certainty that they have presented to you about what you call is what's right and what's wrong. If you want to try new things,

If you want to explore, experiment, make different choices than the ones that they clearly uphold, then it's not about how do you become as certain as them, but it's how do you allow yourself to live with some of the uncertainty that comes when you explore, when you take risks, when you make changes. And that uncertainty is not a weakness. It's just...

You said it. Okay. It's the life that you choose to live. That uncertainty is an element of life. Once you decide to open up things, to question things, to not just repeat, then it does invite the ability to tolerate uncertainty.

which is a piece of what you had with your boyfriend. It was that uncertainty. So just being able to sit with it. Yeah, but it's not passive sitting. It's what do I need to help me with it? Which witnesses do I need in my life? What are the reassurances that help me? What are the risks I take? So it's not I'm sitting with it and I'm just letting it wash over me. It's not a passive thing.

It's an active engagement with the unknown. Okay. It's a beautiful thing to watch you take things in, think, absorb, try to find a place where to store it, decide if you want to keep it in the lobby or bring it to the bedroom. You know, your face is telling me this whole story of what you do with everything you're hearing here. Okay.

yay, nay, a little bit, not really, maybe, I don't know yet, where shall I put that? It's a whole triage system. It's beautiful. It's beautiful because I would like you to experience with me what you're trying to become more comfortable doing with your parents, which is don't take what I say just like that at face value. Examine it, question it, reject some of it, absorb some of it, explore some of it further, be curious about it.

It's a whole set of active engagements with this, what I just said. And that doesn't mean you have to be 100% sure that you disagree or that you agree. It just means I take what Perel is telling me and I'm cooking with it. I'm not just swallowing it. Okay? All right. We'll stop here. This was an Esther calling. A one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world.

If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, it could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call. Send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at estherperel.com. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut.

Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Eva Walchover, Destry Sibley, Huwete Katana, Sabrina Farhi, Eleanor Kagan, Kristen Muller, and Juliann Hatt. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and Jack Saul.

If you've been enjoying this podcast, here's a look into what else is happening at New York Magazine. I'm Corey Sika. I'm an editor at New York Magazine. I'm talking with Madeline Leung-Coleman. She's written for us about how we treat animals at the end of their lives, about the most difficult decisions that none of us ever want to make. And the big question we have is, who is this medical care for? Is it for them or is it sometimes for us? Hi, Madeline. Hi, Corey. Hi.

I'm really scared to talk about this topic on air because I don't want to start crying. That is the big hazard here for both of us, that we'll get very upset. As most people in America, we have had pets die and pets come and go and it's tough. It's true. And not only had them die, but had to make the decision about when they died. You said that vets, a vet said to you like nine times out of ten, people have waited too long.

Yeah, she says of the euthanasia cases that she sees, nine times out of ten, it's someone who's waited too long versus people who are bringing a pet in to be euthanized who she doesn't think would be.

The phrase you bring up is a phrase we've all heard, which is the phrase, you'll know when. But we clearly do not know when, and both of us have not known when in our lives. How should people who are struggling with this know when? There are actually some checklists that you can find online that basically help you evaluate your animal's quality of life. But ultimately, the only thing that actually prepares you to make the decision is having been through it before.

You were calling vets and pet owners and asking them about animal death and end of life and all this terrible stuff. What was the one thing you heard that surprised you? The person I talked to who used to work at a shelter found that when people would bring their dogs in to be euthanized, people who really loved their dogs but just couldn't afford to treat them or just need to put them down for whatever reason, they would all bring their dogs the same last meal.

A McDonald's cheeseburger. You are kidding me. What? Every single person, she said, basically would bring in a McDonald's cheeseburger for their dogs to eat. I'm kind of upset. They can have chicken bones finally. Which is what they all want to eat. That's all they want to eat is chicken bones. Let them have them. That's Madeline Leung Coleman and you can find her story on animals, ethics, and death in our print magazine in your own home, which you should subscribe to and receive there or at nymag.com.

backslash lineup. That's nymag.com slash lineup.