Donor Daddy
53:06 Share

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

Vitamin Water was born in New York because New Yorkers wanted more flavor to pair with all the amazing food in the city. Vitamin Water is so New York, it's three favorite cheeses are chopped cheese, bacon-egg-and-cheese, and a slice of cheese pizza. Drink Vitamin Water. It's from New York.

On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Join Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app today and earn your spot at the festival. Learn more at globalcitizen.org.

I have been in a relationship for the past 17 years. We built a family together. Two and a half years prior to our daughter being born, I was approached by two friends about donating sperm for them to start a family.

I never told about the donation, and I actively lied about it. I received a text message from an acquaintance I know. Two of their kids are twins, and she texted me that the father of the twins is my partner. At the same point that I made this donation, I was also having a relationship with another woman. He had been having an affair. I chose to take him back.

She's starting to question everything. How do we move forward? And is this a pattern? I don't know if I can get over it. And at the same time, I don't want to walk away from something that I adore so much. And I don't get a chance to redo this with anyone else because I'm 49 and I'm now disabled. It makes me question myself if I'm being weak to stay.

How do you get over a betrayal that's deep? I've heard of many lies in the course of my 40 years of working with couples. Sometimes it's the lies of cheating or stealing or sexual abuse. In this instance, he has a secret. And the secret is I donated sperm to a couple of friends. My friends, but you know them too.

And I never told you. And one day when you asked me and I responded without responding, the secret turned into a lie. The lie turned into a deception. The deception turned into a betrayal. And now it has become a fiasco.

I have something called Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. It's a connective tissue disorder. And for me, it affects my spine really bad. So now I have a gait impairment and it's affecting my voice and my hands will curl up. So I could be fine walking around and then it'll hit me and I'll start having a gait, like all of a sudden I'll lock up. And it adds layers into the complexity of our situation because I don't trust my body.

I need to trust him. I trust parts of him. I trust that he will physically take care of me or be there for me and show up for me for any sort of a medical need. But there's other parts that I've lost trust in. And I really want to hear your insight because they're severe betrayals and they're

I want to know if I can build that trust back. And not only that, are there times when you stay with someone that you can't completely trust because you love them and you're really happy with your life? Is it worth that sacrifice? Or am I always going to feel like there's going to be another shoe to drop? But I'm glad you just framed two very clear questions. Can you rebuild trust after it is broken?

Broken twice. Okay. So this is the second? Yes. And am I going to go for round three? Okay. Let me ask you, what's the question you bring? The question I bring is how to rebuild trust after this betrayal, which is that I donated sperm to a lesbian couple two and a half years before our daughter was born. I never told her.

They pitched me and yeah, this is something I can do. But I, especially when we got pregnant, I had already signed away all my rights, but I was uneasy about the situation to say the least. I was feeling like it's too late. I can't do anything about it. I kept it a secret. I lied about it to keep that secret.

Meaning? Meaning. You were asked and you said no? Yes. Who's the donor? Because she knows this couple. Who's the donor? And I said, oh, I lied specifically to keep the secret. So you have one question that you both share about what happened. Yeah. Why you did what you did and how you managed it and why it became a secret. Yes. And then you have a question about now that the secret is revealed. Yes.

There is how do you mend the betrayal? And then there is how do you manage the reality of the fact that there are other children? Yes. And what does that mean for you individually, for you as a couple, and for all of you as a family? And our daughter. So one thing I'm going to put right in front here is that you have just learned of this. So a lot of today is completely...

infiltrated with the recency of the news. Absolutely. If we had this conversation in six months, we would be having a different conversation. I agree. We're going to have the time that we have today and it will be a conversation that's going to end with three dots at the end of the sentence. Okay. But let me gather a tiny bit more info. I'm going to go back for a split second because I can't meet a couple without being very curious always about the origin myth.

The origin story. Every couple has a story of how they met and what brought them together. And that helps me understand also the betrayal.

So we've known each other for 17 years. In 2009, we were very much a couple. But we hadn't been, and he kept someone else that he had been seeing. He loaned me his laptop and his email was open. And he had been having a full-blown two-year affair with this woman. And how did you handle that? Did we make sense of it?

Yes, in time. We spent quite a bit of time apart and he, for the first time, started therapy. And what did you glean from there? In those months of therapy, I was really trying to dig into what was driving me. What was it? And coming out of a divorce, I still wasn't ready for a relationship. I was making a lot of decisions based on

what was good for me or like ego-based things at the time. I think I know and he won't tell me. Meaning? I think he is extremely arrogant and that he thinks he could get away with it. And I still love you very much. With your narcissism. I love you. But I think that you have traits that sabotage us as a couple.

And however you look at it, it also could be your own integrity. I could be completely off base. But how on earth do you live this double life for 11 years and have a magical relationship if you're not so arrogant you believe you can get away with it? You know, it's very impressive. You're able to hold many parts of him.

She's able to hold many contradictions about him. The man who lies to her and cheats on her, but also the man who takes exquisitely good care of her since she has been ill. The man with whom she has created a beautiful life and the man who has kept a secret and lied flat in her face. The ability to hold those contradictions is a feature of mature love. I truly love him. Okay.

I'm going back to him. I know that I have selfish tendencies. My selfishness was based around my traveling or doing what I wanted to do. How do you do what you want and get away with it? Yes. That's the piece. It's like nobody tells you what to do. You kind of do what you want. Yeah. And what allowed for the magical thinking is that in some level, it disconnects you from reality. If I don't tell it...

it will not be known. You know, my fictitious reality becomes reality. That's how we sometimes can live with the deception and convince ourselves that it's better like this, that it would be too painful to her or to your daughter, that you've worked so hard at creating something so beautiful. Why taint it?

He too lives with a contradiction because he's acutely aware every time that he's lying. And he is going to confirm that with a host of examples. And the delusional thinking that accompanies it is that if I don't talk about it, the longer I don't tell, the more it will disappear. So he goes back and forth between, oh, it's nothing, and it is the secret that sits in the middle of the relationship.

Well, I think that that sums up a lot of the situation and or the reality I was living, which is the longer I don't tell, this gets to continue. How we're living and the happiness that we have with each other, all three of us gets to keep going. In our relationship, there were a hundred different times that I wanted to say it.

You know, you're watching a movie and there's a situation that has some similarities or you watch some documentary and three kids who never knew each other come together and you're... And I want to say it and I could never find the words. And I was still too afraid to say it. And I was too afraid of our magic to end. Our relationship, it's been fantastic. It's been...

great two weeks before or a week before the mom had texted to reveal this. We were having the discussion laying in bed like, are we really this lucky to have this good of a life? We would say that probably every other month. We would have a moment of, I love you so much. We're so lucky, which is

Part of the confusion for me to realize I was being lied to all of that time when I was so emotionally intimate with him. That moment felt so pure and perhaps it was, but if this huge weight was on his shoulders and now he's feeling such relief, that makes me believe that it must have still been on his shoulders when he was pretending like everything was great.

So I'm confused. Or... He was compartmentalizing. Or that because everything was great, it kept mushrooming the fear. A secret is like a mushroom. Yeah. It starts like this, and then it grows. It got too big. Like, that's why I say, as a human being, I can understand at a certain point why he didn't tell. Now, I don't agree that it was right, but...

I get it. Every time people talk about the truth, it always is about living with the consequences of the truth. In a way, he doesn't tell you the truth because on some level he knows for a fact that you won't go for that. Or I'll be destroyed. Or you'll be destroyed. Well, a long-held lie or secret explodes in a relationship. It has the capacity

to make us question the entire story of the relationship. Does that mean that everything else is now redefined in light of this new piece of information and the whole thing was a lie, the whole thing was a fraud, not just this lie that sat in the middle of the relationship? For some couples, that does happen. The whole relationship is relabeled.

But at other times, like here, what existed between these two people is no less true, authentic and heartfelt. And it sat on the same couch together with the lie. It's not because there was a lie, even though it is what we often feel at first, that the whole thing was a fraud.

The whole thing was a lie because there was a lie in the middle of the beauty. That is actually what I'm moving through right now. I know. I know. And sometimes one stays with that. And sometimes I want to say whatever was between you was real as well.

I think they're both true. You understand? They are both true. I agree. Yes. So it's not this invalidates everything. It's there was this beauty. And the fact that it was magical, as you both described, only reinforced the need for the secret. So the whole thing becomes perverse.

I see in their body language that they both understand the irony of this, that because the relationship was so magical, as they both call it, it actually incentivized for the lie to be kept under wraps even more. The more beautiful the relationship, the bigger the risk that it could be destroyed. But at the same time,

Because it was so strong, it now has the ability to hold on and stay grounded, even though it is being slapped left and right by all these new discoveries. For some couples, when the lie explodes, it is the end of the relationship. And for those of you listening, we're

A lie and a betrayal was the death knell. This may become more challenging to listen to because you may not have had the opportunity and the groundwork necessary to survive a lie.

Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Babbel. The year is already halfway through, and soon enough we'll all be looking back at our New Year's resolutions and taking stock. Well, if one of your goals this year was to practice another language, there's still plenty of time, especially if you try Babbel.

Babbel is the science-backed language learning app that works. Babbel's quick 10-minute lessons are handcrafted by over 200 language experts to help you start speaking a new language in as little as three weeks.

I've been working on my Portuguese and as I've been traveling, I've met quite a few people who spoke Portuguese. And here and there, I could actually articulate a few flawless sentences. Here's a special time-limited deal for you. Right now, you get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for you at babbel.com slash Esther. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Esther.

spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Esther. Rules and restrictions may apply.

It hurts so bad to see that she's been destroyed by this, like she's shook. And the fact that I made the decision to donate sperm, that I made the decision not to tell her. Which one is it? Or both? One definitely led to the other is what I mean, but it's because I didn't tell her. No, but if you had told her, what would have happened?

I almost guaranteed that we wouldn't be here today and that we would have not had a relationship. If you had told when it happened, when you began to be serious and you said two years ago I donated, because you had done this before, you would have said then we have no chance? Yes. I believe in same-sex marriage and sperm donation and all of that.

For me personally, I want to be with a man who wants to be with his biological children. I also know the couple that he donated to. And I would not want to have half siblings with their children. And that's not the situation. Okay. And you knew those people back then as well? I did. The Plotikins were just hearing this. So there was...

a reason for you not to tell. Yes. I would have left. And you knew that? Yes. How? In conversation, she said things like, "I don't want to be with a man that has any children from a previous marriage." I don't recall it that way because I actually don't feel that way. I think I would be okay

if it were a man coming into my life who had children. But it was the deception and it was the choice with people who I knew who, in my opinion, were not an appropriate choice. If we separated now and I were to meet a man with other kids,

I would take those kids on. And to be honest with you, I'm not having those feelings about the twins. And it might be because everything is too soon. I found out via text right before the holidays from one of the moms. He did not tell me.

So again, it's another secret that I discovered. And why did that mother connect with you and not with him? I have no idea. I do not feel like it was her secret to share. The couple is divorced now. So with her life in chaos, it could have been her looking for stability, camaraderie, family. She did say, we are family now.

And our children are half siblings. And I know you're going to do the right thing. This was all said in the same sentence. But finding out again of such a significant betrayal by evidence presented to me, not by him sharing it with me, is part of my pain in moving forward with someone who I really want to be with.

If I'm being honest with you, I want to be with him. You can be honest with him. Yes, I love him so much. But I think he's a tricky guy. I think he's got a lot of charming traits. And I think he knows how to play me. So I know if we don't work out, I will be okay. But it's not really what I want to do. There's one question I won't ask you today. I won't ask you what you want.

I want to just share another layer that's going through my mind. I feel undateable because of my medical condition. So starting over now is going to be a lot different than starting over than it was the last time. And he accepts me with this condition. So we're not going to ask what I want, but I understand the value of someone loving you.

when you have a disability. I love you so much. I love you so much. I love who you are. I love you no matter how you are. Disabled, not disabled, doesn't matter. It's you I love. It's not how you walk or any of that. Why do you lie to me? I don't lie to you. I lied to you about two big things that all happened at the same time.

All of those were overlapping at the same thing. And then I continued to keep this secret and lie about it. I don't believe you. Because I was scared to death to lose you, lose my relationship with my daughter. You know, you're asking him where he was at back then. And maybe we ask the same question to you, right? He didn't tell about the other woman because he didn't want to lose you. And he didn't tell about...

The sperm donation because he didn't want to lose you. And you accepted this relationship that had ended, but that had existed in the shadow of your relationship for two years because you didn't want to lose him. Correct. And it allowed you both to create a whole life together based on a fear. So you could say based on a lie, but you can also say based on a fear. They connect. And based on a wish. It's a good perspective, too.

And based on a wish. Yes, based on a wish. Based on a wish. You wanted him and he wanted you. And for that, you made compromises with your conscience. And for that matter, he made compromises with his conscience. And we can put the focus on the lies. We can put the focus on the fear. But we can also put the focus on the wish.

Your partner, she says, I won't accept this and I won't do that. But in fact, she knows how to live with complexity more than she gives herself credit and more than you give her credit. So it means that where you constantly act from the place of the child, who's you, the child, who's afraid that you're going to lose her, that needs to be revisited.

Because she's not going, she didn't go once, she didn't go twice, but not because she accepted it, you betrayed and she accepted it. It's because one can love a person who also lies about certain things. I think the number one thing at this moment is to slow things down so that people have time to absorb something. We don't fully understand why this message came now.

Correct. And in some way, you have been targeted in order to reach you. It's like playing pool. I agree. You know, for this ball to be hit, it had to go through that one. So I need to hear from you in relation to those two women. Up to now in the session, the focus was a lot about what happened back then, how he lied.

But what's really shaking up the whole foundation of this relationship is that there is a parent, a mother of twins that has approached this mother and she comes with her own agenda.

And at that moment, we begin to shift from looking at the depths of their relationship to looking at the systemic ripple effects that are occurring as this other person has inserted herself into their lives and how they can create boundaries

guardrails, a space to breathe and slowly to think together how they would like to respond. But they are being hijacked into someone else's story.

This podcast is supported by FX's English Teacher, a new comedy from executive producers of What We Do in the Shadows and Baskets. English Teacher follows Evan, a teacher in Austin, Texas, who learns if it's really possible to be your full self at your job, while often finding himself at the intersection of the personal, professional, and political aspects of working at a high school. FX's English Teacher premieres September 2nd on FX. Stream on Hulu.

Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Queens. I have the privilege to travel quite often, both for work and for leisure. And as a seasoned traveler, I know that the secret to stress-free travel is to pack smart and bring versatile, stylish clothing that works in just about any setting. And if you're looking for vacation essentials, you may want to try Queens as well.

Quince offers luxury clothing essentials at reasonable prices. By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts the cost of the middlemen and passes the savings on to the consumers. I just ordered a suitcase from Quince that I can't wait to take with me this summer. It's lightweight and easy to drag around.

When did those kids find out?

I don't know exactly. Their parents had the right to tell them at any point. Yeah. Did they ever reach out to you? Neither parents have reached out to me in several years. And when I say several, around the same time that our relationship had ended. And why did it end? They wanted to have a third child and they approached me about donating again.

And I said, I can't do that. I'm living my life with my family. And they got angry with you for that? And that was, yes, and that was the end of the relationship. A common theme that we're definitely running into in communication with this couple is that selfishness drives a whole lot of their decisions. And what they want is what they want and they will...

do what they need to get that to happen. And have you said, right now we are not communicating, we need to think? Can you put some gates here? At first, it was coming in so fast. It was rapid fire. And even in the point where...

As it's coming in and then we're discussing it and talking about it and confronting it and being confronted by it, the things are being said like, don't have him call me. I know you'll do the right thing to me. Are you being ambushed? Completely. Yes, completely.

I shared the communication with my therapist and her words were, I have a huge problem with this. I recommend that you cease contact. And I did. And it felt so good. And now? No contact? I received a communication last night at about midnight saying... In preparation for us. Have you blocked me? And...

My instinct are two things. One, don't respond. My other instinct is to say, listen, back off. We are in the middle of trying to focus on our relationship and our family dynamic. And from here on out, please communicate with me as we do not know the future of our relationship at this stage.

When you are ambushed like this, probably the most important thing is for you to say very, very little about where you're at. Okay. You're being bombarded with urgency by somebody whose motives and needs are not clear, that is blurring your vision, that is not allowing you to even finish a breath before you need to catch the next one. And you need time, and you need time together to think clearly

And then you will see what makes sense to you. You need to unite. You want to be together. One thing you know clearly is that you want your relationship to stay. You'll deal with the messes and the hurts and the angers. But there is not a question here. And not just because you are disabled and not just because you feel weakened. But because there is a lot of richness to the life that you build.

And you don't want that to be taken from your daughter either. And so you need quiet. Yes. You know, you don't owe these people anything about your personal meanderings. Okay. And your inner relationship tribulations. Nothing. We thought we were buying time. No, you buy time by just saying... Just adding drama. Nothing. They will see you read the message.

I agree with what you're saying and it's giving me some clarity. I think that the word ambush really resonated with me and helped me look at it as an attack more than a cry for help, which I was getting confused by. Help is asked differently. So many boundaries have been broken. Pump the brakes. Let's slow down.

as something that I know I've been saying this throughout. The way you answered, you reveal every crack through which somebody who wants to manipulate can enter. Yes. So here is what happens sometimes when people have held secrets, is that you kind of don't know what is privacy. You go from secrecy to transparency. There's nothing wrong in what you said.

It's just that if there's a person that maybe you don't want to trust, it's this person. So don't share much because there's something also that doesn't square with me in the motives on the other side. What is somebody wanting money? Is somebody, you know, what made them suddenly think you should be involved? It's going to sound so stupid. Yeah. Social media.

Tell me more. I've learned that my Instagram account of the adventures and travels and fun and lifestyle that we've lived has been shared with those children and told that they were not included. That their disappointment in not being invited or included in birthdays, New Year's Eve parties, or your general... They're continually let down.

by not being included in your life adventures. This is what the mother is texting me. And I'm like, so this is what the mother has told the kids. Yes. She said, you got you have continually let them down by them not being included in all of. And she listed things that are on my Instagram account. And I'm like, you just weaponize my Instagram account to hurt your own children. It's sick. Yeah.

No, I'm like, I keep thinking, what's the next piece? This is why, because it's so bonkers, right? The onion keeps peeling. This is why I was like, of all people, why them? We saw it. I saw the writing on the wall. I was like, of all people, why them? And that is probably a bigger problem than I'm admitting. If it was somebody who...

I had deep affection for and I found out, I may not feel so disturbed, but the fact that half of his half-bio kids are being taunted by our lifestyle makes me fiercely angry. And they're now giving this idea that they have a deadbeat dad and that was never his role. You saying that makes a big difference too. If it was, you know,

If it was somebody else, I would have had a different heart to it. You're not just being cold and callous and possessive. I hear you. But then get more and more pissed at them. Okay. And, you know, not only at him. He has his share. But I think you're being really, you're being played by somebody else.

Is what it feels like to me. Am I being played by both? You know, I think... Like, that's my thing. Am I being played by them and him? Like, it's confusing. Well, him, you want to believe... My heart says no. My heart says he's not playing me. My heart says he is a human being who messes up. I don't want to be stupid. So then... Keep my eyes open. Yes, don't be naive and keep your eyes open. You know, you're not going to be detectives, but...

You definitely are played by, not just you, I'm going to be very clear, you don't just need therapy advice, you need legal advice. Okay. So there is a piece of it that is just legal. Then there is

Your decision we will open ourselves to this family or not Then there is you know You don't want to punish the kids for the foolishness of the parents and there is probably that part of it, too Because they're being played. Yeah. Yes, and We look at the situation and we look at these children and we're like she continues to say like I want to go and give him a hug like we want to go and do something to help and

Protect them or help them not feel this abandonment and it's like hold on a second. I didn't abandon them I didn't go ahead and just pull the rug out from under them and like hey, I don't want you it's Complicated and it's hard because because the story is being created Yeah, I don't want involvement right now. I don't think it's healthy for me. I don't feel the same way for him and

If these children want to connect with him once in a while, I don't want him to turn his back to them. I've done a lot of reading. You've said that to him? Yes. They're people. And I think that your ignorance in this decision is this is you taking responsibility. And you're going to have to figure out how to do it in a way that doesn't disrupt your daughter's life.

And then you will see what makes sense to you. Yes, you have heart and you don't want these children to feel like they're just an outcome of petri dishes. But at the same time, you also want to be very clear that the same way that there was a magical thinking going on here, there has been magical thinking going on there. This is the life you were meant to live. Look what your little sister is doing. Your dad this, your dad that.

And you meant to do something nice. You were naive a little bit. You should have to take responsibility for the lie, but it shouldn't have to come and haunt you like this. In his disclosing of the story to me, he said, when he walked away from the dinner of them being so excited, like presenting this as, wouldn't this be wonderful? You can do this for us. You can do it. So he said yes. And when he walked away, he was like,

I just said, yes, I can't back out on this now. I try to do what I say. That's how I try to live my life. If I'm going to, if I say I'm going to do it, I want to do it. And then I said, yeah, all right. Like, and they pitched me and yeah, yeah, this is something I can do. But I, I can say that especially when we got pregnant, I was uneasy about the situation to say the least. I was like,

I mean, when I say uneasy, it more translated into, "Fuck, this isn't going to be good." And so with this, when we're about to start our family and have our daughter, something you had said to me resonated and I understood clearly, which was when you said the worst thing that could happen is someone knock on the door with your children. I knew what it was. The table was set. It was right there.

If I reveal this, it's done. I remember saying that, being like, yeah, that would be really, really awful. And like, you don't have any kids, do you? Nope. That was my answer. I lied. I actively lied about this. And now when I say this about that, you said this, I knew what the expectation was. In these last six weeks since this bomb has been dropped into our family, we've

I'm the one who actively lied about this. I'm the one who has been covering this up. I'm the one who made the decision and said yes to donate to this couple. I don't have the right to say, because you said this, I was able to lie to you. That's bullshit. I did understand what the situation was, and that added to my incentive to lie. That's why I feel tricked. And that's why you feel tricked. And I...

Because you knew how I felt. I feel horrible about lying to you. I feel horrible about not telling you that I did this, that I donated to this couple. It hurts me to see how destroyed you are over this. And that's not me asking you not to be destroyed or not to be emotional or not to be. You need to feel everything you're feeling because I lied to you.

over two really big things at essentially the start of our relationship. And I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry that I, going back, that I even said yes and did this. I'm so sorry that I kept it from you. And I'm so sorry that I took away your agency of making decisions for your life of how you wanted it to go long term. All right, believe me, hon. I love you so much.

Don't lie to me anymore. I don't want to lie to you anymore. I'm not going to lie to you anymore. If this has taught us anything, I'm fucking done lying. It came down to a Christmas present going under the tree. And she was like, oh, did that package arrive yet? Well, I had already wrapped it up and put it under the tree. I said, I can't lie. No more lies anymore. Your package, this is what's in it. This is under the tree. I keep saying no more lies. Like, I don't want to. But it's going to take one little piece to add to it.

This is very, very moving. Part of why you lied, if I understood something, is about the power of women. You didn't just lie. I mean, yes, of course you lie. But there's something about the power of women. There's a very strong similarity between how you took her sentences and they shaped you, like you took the sentence of the other two women who said, we're going to do this, and they shaped you.

And I just want to say, to just say I'm not going to lie doesn't help you understand you're not being able to stand up to the power of a woman. A certain kind of power here we're talking about. I think if I'm onto something, then you know what I'm talking about. You are onto something. You're definitely onto something. And there was infidelity in my parents' relationship. My dad had relationships outside of the marriage.

I wasn't aware of that until after they had gotten divorced. My mom has shared that. My older siblings have. It's shared just as a known fact that there were infidelities. Also, my mom was a very, she had a lot of manipulative traits that she would do and she would orchestrate amongst our family a chaos that kept

going and manipulate people on that level. I see my sister constantly trying to push me into doing things and make me do things and I push back. But you do succumb often. And I succumb as well. It's like how this all played out with agreeing to be part of this donation and everything. It goes back to the same... I didn't recognize it then, but I recognize it now that...

There are people who can get me to do things or... Women. Everybody. Yeah. I think it's women in a different way. If I may, when you go to your therapy, don't focus only on lying and on secrets. Okay. They're the consequence. They're wrapped into something that is more pernicious and deeper. She's so right.

That carries a lot of wisdom. Yes. Thank you for that. And especially if you're identifying your sister, your mother, this one, you know, you lose your, I'm going to use a very trite thing, but it's like you lose your voice. And that makes you think that he can

be cunning or, but the reason that you couldn't say no and that you couldn't go back on your word is partly because of there's something about women and their power and then they're putting you in savior roles. You love being a savior. May I ask something? How many boys in the family? In my family, two. And who was the chosen one by mom?

Me. So you find yourself in a bit of what my friend and colleague Terry Real calls the unholy triangle. It is the son who is very close to his helpless mother. Oh, totally. In the presence of an either abusive or absent father. He had a lot of people to make happy.

So it gives you at the same time a sense that you are very powerful because you're a savior, but you're also powerless because you see the distress of the woman that you need to. And that you see as flattery.

So if we go in a flattery direction, we may trivialize it and make it... It's a consequence, but it's not the root. And it comes off to me as ego and arrogant, but there's so much more under it that is so not toxic. So I'm glad that you opened my eyes to that because I'm not walking out of the door with somebody who...

has these attributes that I was worried were really overtaking his decisions. Obviously, the decisions had consequences, but if he can understand the root of it, then... I think he deserved to understand it because otherwise the focus is more I couldn't find the right time to speak. I agree. Which is there, but it's not the full story. There's something about how you heard her first statement. So it wasn't just that I want to lose her. It's just...

the resolve with which he said it, the power it had over you, all of these things, that combination of being the savior, of being the one who... And it is women. - Yeah, that's helpful. - And you simmered the temperature of what we're going through down together as well, 'cause I can see his struggle now, which I couldn't before. So I appreciate that insight. - I got some digging to do. - You're gonna be okay.

And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker.

We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and Jack Saul.