50th Episode/holiday Q+A Special!!!
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Welcome to the Underworld Podcast. I am one of your hosts, Danny Golds, and I'm here, as always, with Sean Williams. We are two journalists that have traveled all over, doing stories about all sorts of crazy things, a lot of crime, and every week we bring you a new story about organized crime all over the world, from the past, from now, even sometimes from the future. And except for this week, actually.

Because this week, we wanted to do this for our 50th episode, but we wanted to, you know, keep giving you guys good episodes. And we figured around the holiday time, it would be perfect to do a Q&A. We reached out to folks on our Patreon, patreon.com slash in the world podcast, because we get questions all the time. And we want to answer some of them. So here we are. Yeah, we got some like serious ones. We got some funny ones. And we got some stuff about...

I guess what we've done in our careers. So yeah, it's kind of, you know, I mean, Christmas is coming up. You guys, if you want to, if you want to go back for any of the old stories, if you, if you want like one of the scripted shows, we've got like, well, 50 something of those as well. But yeah, if you hate the banter, if you hate the banter, if you hate me and Sean, if you hate us talking about ourselves, this is not the episode for you. Go back, listen to the other ones. They're all great. But for the rest of you, let's get this going. Our first question is from Trist B.

Given the nature of the organization's handling production and the supply chain, is it unethical to do cocaine? Hell of a first question there. I mean, it pretty much... Sean and all his friends in Berlin, it's going to be a tough one for them. I mean, oh, God. Like, is it unethical to do cocaine? Maybe. I don't know. Like, yeah, it causes a lot of issues around the world, but... Like...

I guess like we say a few things that are pretty consistent in the show is that, you know, whatever the truth is of the whole situation, the way that we do it at the moment doesn't work. So war on drugs is bullshit and it's racist. Like it's killing people. And,

Prohibition, I mean it didn't work with booze Bro, bro, it's not It's not that serious Alright, yeah, sure Enjoy yourselves, I mean The world's going to shit, so yeah, might as well do it You know, there's worse things you could be doing Maybe don't involve yourself In shootings over trafficking it But for the most part, I think You know, I think you're okay I mean, if you do, tell us about it Because then we can put you on a bonus Patreon episode as well

Yeah, that's true. Also, yeah, let me just say thank you to everyone who's been listening and sending us questions and doing all that stuff. We really, we like hearing from you guys, especially those of you on both sides of the law who give us sort of insight into what's going on and invite us places to go see what's happening. So thank you for all that. Yeah, there really is a lot of people from both sides of that line.

Yeah, that's great. I mean, it makes our job easier and I think it makes our episodes better. Akash, you both have reported from some incredibly dangerous locations. Are there any instances where you genuinely feared for your lives or thought that you might not make it out? I mean, I don't know. I usually don't think about these things till afterwards. And I think, I think Sean, you were kind of saying something before in the first version of this that we did that we had to start over again. Yeah.

How, like, there's a lot of things you look back on when you were younger that you're like, I should not have done that. Yeah. And...

Yeah, I have a bunch of those. I'd say, especially on video, the first time I got really pinned down was in Central African Republic. And I wasn't used to that much gunfire around me and not knowing where it was coming from. So that was pretty gnarly. And there was definitely times when I was reporting on Ebola when I was lying in my apartment afterwards in New York, thinking that maybe I had got Ebola, even though it's kind of hard to get. And just imagining myself on the front page of the New York Post and them just making me out to be this monster person.

This like idiot vice reporter got Ebola and brought it back to New York. But luckily that did not happen. I think it happened to a doctor and he went bowling afterwards, but that's another story. I mean, bleeding out of your asshole to death is a hell of a way to go. I mean, it's kind of very vice to me.

I don't know. Yeah. It would be a hell of a way to go as a vice reporter. Did you, Sean, you have any instances like that? Yeah. I mean, it's like when I, when I first decided to go freelance, I just like spunked all the cash that I had on a trip to Somalia. Cause like, where is dangerous and where aren't people going? Cause that's a great thing to do when you're like 22, 23 or whatever. And yeah,

I mean, I was just dumb. Like, I got in some really stupid situations, as you can imagine. I think I've had Michael Scott Moore on a bonus Patreon episode who got, like, kidnapped by Somali pirates for about two, three years. And when I was hearing his story, I was thinking, Jesus, like, probably I was, like, a few yards away from having the same kind of fate myself. But, I mean, there was one situation that maybe wasn't that dangerous. Or maybe it was. I don't know. But...

I was in this little town and I was doing a story for Vice actually back when Vice were doing feature stories about kids from Ethiopia that had been like traveling to Somalia to find a better life. I mean imagine how shit that is. And I was taking pictures of them and this old guy who's like a religious figure was

started whacking me around the back of the legs with his stick, like his walking stick. And my fixer was like begging me not to take any more pictures. And then in the end, like he and his friends chucked me in a prison or a jail. And it was like, have you seen the toilet scene out of train spotting? It was like that. It looked like that everywhere. And I spent the night there.

And yeah, I basically got put in a Somali jail for taking pictures of little kids. That was their excuse. So I was like, and not listening and not listening to your fixer, not listening to my fixer. I think we're going to have a couple of questions about fixes and I've got a couple of good ones there, but yeah, always listen to the fixer. Yeah. Uh, Jess Purvis. Oh, should I keep going? What do you, what do you think? Yeah. Oh no, you go for it. Go for it. No. Are there any other, are there any other things where you thought you were going to die? Anything good? Uh, maybe some club nights in Berlin, but I think that's about it. Yeah. Yeah.

Doing research. Yeah, always. I always do my own research. I did it before it was cool. Jess Purvis, any documentaries or particular pieces of journalism that inspired you? That's a good question. Yeah, you go.

Actually, the book that made me want to be a journalist, I think I was traveling at the time when I read it, was The Zanzibar Chess by Aidan Hartley, where he talks about being a reporter in East Africa in the 90s. So that one definitely inspired me. Anything that Luke Mogelson has written, I think is always something that always

Always gets to me. I think his one about the boat trip, the boat airlift, I think it was from the New York Times Magazine, about pretending to be like a Georgian refugee. Oh, Christmas Island. I don't remember. Yeah, no, no, yeah, you know, and then they went on a raft, like a boat trip, like they pretended to get smuggled with a bunch of Afghans and I think others from...

I don't forget what they were to Australia. I mean, it was just, it was, it's one of the craziest stories I've ever seen. That was definitely inspiring. I don't know. I love like Dexter Filkins and John Lee Anderson, the stuff that they used to write when I was just starting out. That was always the stuff that I kind of wanted to write. And that stuff always inspired me. Yeah. I mean, I, I love William Langeveche. I mean, anything that he's done before, I was just kind of like completely,

uh goggle-eyed reading his stuff um but like i don't i don't know like i never really grew up with a lot of journalism around me as a kid but as i got older i guess uh yeah i mean it sounds really like cliched but a lot of hunter thompson's early stuff like the hell's angels book that was really really cool it just seemed like a really cool life to get into i think and that sort of like gonzo stuff was completely alien to me as a young guy so yeah that i guess

Yeah, all that really good, like, 70s, 80s, 90s, like, Esquire, GQ sort of journalism. You know, Dispatches, I think, is another one. Oh, Dispatches is incredible. Yeah, yeah. I think Toby's book that we've talked about, Kilo, is almost like a...

Close to a modern day version of that. I think it's fantastic, but definitely, definitely give that a read. And if you haven't, I mean, this is also really cliche, maybe people haven't heard of it, but like behind the beautiful forevers by Catherine booze, just like as a character study, it's about her life. It's about her being in a Mumbai slum for, I think a couple of years and just saw this low level daily corruption gang crime that goes on in people's lives there. That is one book that, um,

You could read in one sitting. It's just incredible piece of art. Yeah, I'd recommend that to anyone. All right. Next question is Michael from Toronto. While covering a story on location, have either of you been presented with an opportunity to involve yourselves in nefarious and illegal activities? And if so, why did you do it, Sean? Oh, cheers, Michael. How the fuck have I got this idea?

this rep over the course of this. I just sort of like deflect that stuff. Cause I, I think people assume I'm more likely. So I deflected towards you. I just come up with the accusations ahead of time just to save myself. Oh God. I mean, yeah, the stuff, the stuff with the Burmese meth lab, there's, there was a lot of weird stuff going on on that trip. Um, which is one reason why I had to go back there a second time and redo the story. Um,

Because, I mean, massive props to Stuart in London. What happened out there, bud? I mean, you know, me and my pal, we got pretty singular focused on finding a meth lab. And when you're doing that in the middle of the jungle and...

you're meeting certain people that want you to do certain things. I mean, you just kind of fall into... I just want to let you know that this isn't just me and you talking. Other people are going to be able to hear this. Yeah, no, nothing happened. And I went out there because I'm really professional and I really wanted to do a good job of the story. But let's just say...

If you are going to do any of the substances that are mentioned in the story that I did for GQ, don't do it out of a didgeridoo that an old guy gives you on the street. For me, not on a story and not on location, but...

I'm open to it if you're out there. You know, it's been a rough year for all of us. Patreon, these advertising dollars, they're not coming through. So, you know, if you need us, I can teach you. I'm pretty sure I could teach someone how to launder money with NFTs. And I feel like that's a good skill to have if you're in organized crime. So, you know, hit us up.

You know, maybe use Signal. Maybe don't use Gmail, you know, but we'll work something out. We're open to it. I'm open to it. Sean's probably open to it too, let's be real. I'm open to it. I couldn't fucking do it. Yeah. Should I read out another one? Wait, I think I skipped over one right here. From our man Dante from Glasgow. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

All right, I'll do Dante's question. Yeah, I just wanted to ask, is there a particular gang from history or currently from your native area you'd love to cover or speak more about, whether through adoration of their guile or just their plain idiocy? I'd love to hear.

Yeah, I mean, I like, I love all the turn of the century, like late 1800s, early 1900s stuff. You know, before there was really organized crime, there's sort of like Monk Eastman and street gangs and Five Points and all that sort of stuff. I don't know if you've ever read Low Life or Gangs in New York, like the old book. I'd love to...

I mean, I love learning about that stuff. I think it's fascinating. I'd love to do more on that. Also, there's like, you know, a situation in my neighborhood involving my block and the Abbotsfields houses that's been going on for a decade. And it's just like the stupidest thing. But I'd love to, I always thought doing a story about the sort of inner workings of

of these like block beefs that escalate over time and go on forever people it was almost like half the McCoy's you know I'd love to do that and I'd love to get involved but it's weird because you know there's people that I'm friends with involved and it's also somewhere I live so you want to be a little more careful but uh I always kind of fantasize about being able to put something on that together and doing it in a way that I think don't think has been done a lot in um

in journalism and media in general ah yeah that would be such a good non-fiction book just the story of one block in brooklyn that'd be awesome i don't know like yeah i feel like how many different nationalities live on your block because i feel like every single time we do a new york story there's belizeans there's trinidadians no no no it's mostly no i mean on my block in particular it's mostly uh west indians and panameans but uh

I mean, that's the fun part of New York, right? And I keep going back to do like, you know, I'm working on one right now. It might even, it might air just before this, but I'm not sure. There are so many good stories about that stuff in New York. I think LA too, Toronto, London, I'm sure it has a bunch too. You know, these sort of, I kind of like doing those stories too, whether it's, you know, even not just the turn of the century, you know, the 70s, 80s, 90s and things like that. So yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I kind of want to find out, I mean, my granddad passed a couple of years ago and I want to find a little bit more about him because I've heard some like interesting stories about him working with gangsters in Southeast London and he was a big dude and like,

From what I've heard, he basically went around getting stuff out of people on behalf of others. And I'd kind of like to look into his stuff because it goes into like the craze and some of these organized crime outfits in like 60s and 70s. So, yeah, I guess Southeast London, dodgy guys there associate with the craze. That was what I'll go for.

All right, here's one from James. You always joke about Albanians. First of all, we never joke about Albanians. We never joke about Albanians. Never joke about Albanians. But are there any definable underworld groups that you know or suspect exist which you aren't comfortable saying anything about? If so, could you give any hint at what type of organization person this is?

I mean, you know, the stuff that we're doing, these sort of overviews and these stories, it's not like we're digging super deep into like investigating their finances and things like that. So I think I'm pretty comfortable doing stuff about, about any group in that regard. You know, I don't, I don't think we have to worry about those sort of threats in anything. I'm sure there are local journalists. I'm sure people doing like the nitty gritty stuff that definitely do. I don't think we have much to be,

concerned about at the moment. I mean, who knows? There's always people yelling at you over like DM or whatever, but it doesn't really matter that much. I mean, I would say the block thing makes me not nervous. It's just, I'm a little more reluctant to do it just because it's like people I know and you're putting some of their business out there and also people might not take it the right way and it's where I live.

But I think if I had the opportunity, I would definitely do it. But, you know. I mean, I've had some pretty ham-fisted death threats from the Nigerian guys because, like, the Black Axe guys are pretty much everywhere. But it's kind of funny. I don't know. Like, what's the point worrying about that? Nah. And, like, I guess while we're on the subject, like, the local journalists are the heroes, right? We do so many stories about, like, narcos and the cartels in South America. And, like, for every...

western journalist that goes in there and writes like amazing work i mean there's probably like a hundred local journalists that are just playing their trade every day and they're getting like shot and threatened and all kinds of horrible shit so yeah shout out to them

James, have you dealt with the situation where during an interview someone causes you to know that they were planning a specific act of violence where you potentially could prevent a person or people from being hurt, killed in a specific planned attack? I've never had that happen. I mean, people make threats all the time. Like, we're going to do this if this doesn't happen and blah, blah, blah. But I've never been in that situation where someone was like, here's the blueprint of what we're going to do. You know? Yeah, I mean...

I guess the closest I've come to that, to like go back to Nigeria again, I spent a day in a little village where a lot of women were being trafficked from. And I kind of saw this witch doctor. I should put some stuff up on the IG actually for our show, but it's like local witch doctor kind of like putting juju curses on girls that were going to get sent off into Europe to be sex workers. Yeah.

And that, like seeing that and kind of being pretty powerless to do anything about it made me feel awful. I don't think any, I don't know if that counts as violence. It probably does. But that's the only thing I can think of.

Yeah, but I mean, you're powerless in that situation. You know, there's definitely been situations like that where I'm powerless. There's not much you can do. Yeah. But yeah, I don't know. Just to say too, you know, these are all questions from the Patreon, patreon.com, Sessing the World podcast. If you don't hear a question today and you want to ask us stuff, you know, we respond to pretty much most things that people send us unless they're angry or complaining about stuff. Although we welcome that if you're actually paying us. So, you know.

Yeah. John, Jonathan, Jonathan Russell. Someone asked earlier about Al Capone and if you would do crime from that far in the past. And I was wondering the same, maybe stuff about the gangs, the Peaky Blinders were based on. That must've happened before you just did an episode on them. Yeah. Cause we just did an episode on them. Any plans on episodes about biker gangs like Hells Angels? Just an episode on New Zealand ones. I think we definitely want to do one on the, on the Scandinavian biker wars and the ones up in Quebec, which are pretty nuts. Yeah.

Who's the nicest gangster criminal you've ever met and why? I mean, very few of them aren't nice and convivial when you meet them. They're pretty... The kind of bigger guys are pretty... I think you mentioned it as well, right? When you were in Thailand and your pen fell apart and stuff like this. Most of these guys are pretty nice to speak to.

because they're trying to convey a certain message. I guess if you've got on the wrong side of them, you see another side of them. But I don't know. Nicest gangster. No idea. All the 18th Street guys that I spent time with in El Salvador, I mean, they were technically quote-unquote reformed.

They were pretty nice dudes. I mean, they made me soup. It was a pretty chill situation. Again, though, you know, like we're seeing a side they want to see for the most part. There's definitely people who want to intimidate you as well. But no one where it's made like a giant lasting impression like, you know, or anything like that.

And then there was another question. Sorry, go ahead. Actually, I know that we joke about this, but one of the coolest guys that I met who definitely was a gangster was a guy in Northern Albania who like I spent a day with. He was playing with loads of Raki. We had a great afternoon. He was trying to kill someone's son over a blood feud. That's all great. Fine. I'm sure like this 12 year old kid had it coming and we had a

a pretty crazy day and he was nice and I love Albania and so does Danny. Could you have, could you have stopped it? Could you have ended the blood feud? Like our other question? No, like the, the cops were getting involved at that time. So I think it was just about to all get broken down. And last I heard of it, like nothing happened. So he was telling me like, I don't know if many people have heard of these blood feuds in Albania, but they're nuts. Like once they start, you kind of just have to outdo the other stuff.

We talked about them. I forget the name of the code that it's based on, but we talked about it, I think. Yeah, in the Albania Bronx episode. It was definitely mentioned and broken down in that regard. Guys, we have a new sponsor, and they're awesome. They really love the show, so we want to show them some love too. Definitely support them if you can. CBDX.com. When CBD first came out, we all thought it was going to be like cannabis, and it wasn't. It doesn't really do much. Some people say it helps, but you don't really feel anything.

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The Good Habits Company. And finally, this one might sound stupid, but who have you met on the other side of the law that you've really rooted for to turn their life around? Man, I root for most of these guys to turn their life around, you know? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, my buddy, Izzo, that I film with a lot in St. Louis, he was getting locked up for fentanyl distribution when I met him. He had to go to it, so I was definitely, I'm always pulling for him and trying to figure out what, and he's, you know, stayed out of trouble, but

A lot of folks, I mean, all the, all the, a lot of the guys I met in El Salvador, not all, but a lot of them were like, um, you know, reformed, they had converted to, or taken up evangelical Christianity. I'm definitely pulling for all that, man. Cause the, the other side of that is not, is not pretty. So, I mean, there's so few people that I've met that I've like, I want you to be killed or, you know, lock them away and throw away the key kind of thing. I want everyone to get better and live a better life. That doesn't sound. Yeah, no, no. I,

I feel that. Sagal, how did you two meet? We've never met. No, we still haven't met. We keep making plans. I'm going to Berlin. He's coming here, but they kind of fall through with all the ways things are changing. But this came about because I had the idea to start this, I think, right around the time the pandemic hit and there was going to be no work for anyone. And

I was looking for a partner. I kept running into stories I wanted to do and Sean's name was like at the top, like Sean had written them. And then I had the idea to ask him,

then we were with another friend of ours who's a producer for a lot of doc series i was with him with bill wheeler and he was like you should talk to my buddy sean yeah and i was like i've been meaning to do that reached out to sean he was game right away and that's kind of how it's been so we actually we have not met yet yeah we could get that like the guardian angel of this this podcast in many ways yeah get that patreon up i'll fly out there tomorrow damn yeah then you'll see some crimes

berlin in january i mean what work could you want oh my god it's yeah it's it's not it's not a healthy place to be but we'll we'll meet in miami andrew andrew mackie has a fixer ever died while you worked with them god no they have they have not and i do whatever i can to make sure that it won't happen while i'm working with them it won't happen because i work with them or anything like that um i mean i've never even heard of anyone's fixer dying while they've worked with them have you

I mean, it's definitely happened and people have definitely done things to get local journalists that they've worked with in trouble, you know, or that they've been careless in, in how they treat things or do whatever. That's definitely a thing that, that happens. People get locked up, people get in trouble. Um,

But I, yeah, not, not something that that's ever happened to me. I've seen some, I was going to say like, and I have a bunch of people who like we're in Afghanistan who've been trying to help their fixes that are getting kind of hunted down by the Taliban now. Um, I guess that's as close as I can get to that.

Yeah, I mean, I've, I've, but that's, that's a little different. I think I've had situations, definitely situations where fixtures have saved me and definitely had situations where I wanted to smack my fix upside the head. But for the most part, I've got great working relationships with, with nearly all of them. You know, some, a lot of them I still talk to, but I've, I've been in situations like with other journalists where you're out there in a gang neighborhood in El Salvador and they were like, don't,

This was not a guy that I was working directly with because he would never do that. But they were like, don't take photos of the gang guys right now. They don't want that. And we went in there. And on the way out, this woman was taking photos as we were driving out. And they saw and they yelled at the car. But our car just kept going. But that doesn't fall on us, right?

That falls on the guy who brought us in and the people who took care of us in there. And anytime I hear of situations like that or see them, it's really aggravating because those dudes take a lot of risks and people...

you know sometimes don't um don't respect the fact that like they get to leave but those guys don't and they're much more of a target actually i mean we kind of sing the praises about fixes a lot and rightly so and if and if people want to hear some good stories about that your interview with toby i think it was like our first bonus show was it like way back when i remember listening to it and it was blazing sunshine last year uh that was really cool and listening to how

folks in really hot zones like narco corridors of um like columbia how those guys are really putting their life on the line for your work oh yeah that's pretty incredible i know the guy he's talking about i met him when i visited toby and um yeah he was a mover and a shaker and this is another question i get from from greb's grebster grebster 11

That's a simple question.

just listen to them you know like yeah i can't i can't guarantee anything but i i don't put people in positions where they tell me not to do something i don't push them and push them and push them you know every now and then if someone's being a little lazy you know i'm gonna i'm gonna get on their case but that's basically it and the fixers local journalists that you work with like they know the risks you know um they know what they're doing and they they you know this is their job

And it's, it's really, really hard. And I don't, you know, look, if they tell me not to do something, I'm not going to do it. But if we go to do something and they're like, we can do this, we're going to do it. I think luckily I haven't been in a situation yet where I've gotten any of my fixers in trouble. And I, you know, they also know the risks better than I ever will. So I think it's all about just listening to them when it comes down to that. And, you know, if they get into a situation where, you know,

They misjudge it and they get in trouble. If you can help them, like help them get out, help them get on the run, something like that. You know, it's, that's a lot easier to do when you're with an organization and not independent. And I like to think, you know, a decent amount of organizations I know have been pretty responsible about stuff like that. Yeah. I mean, and also it's like a relationship, right? And there's very little in a relationship that,

It can't be sorted out by having a beer on day one and like really hammering out what you want to do and what's cool and what's not cool. Like I think a lot of the issues that I had when I was younger that were like, I don't know, friction with, with fixers were just because there was, there was a lack of communication. So I guess that's really important too.

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Next one is from Phillip. I was wondering if you two can maybe talk about your path into and throughout your journalistic careers. Yikes. Jesus.

Yeah, I'll go. I'll go. All right. I'm going to give you a rundown, right? And this should tell you guys everything about how informal a career journalism is. I started out as a builder. Then I worked on the news desk of a gossip paper in London. Then I worked in documentaries about ancient history like Stonehenge and Roman ruins and shit. And then I went out to Dubai.

and worked on a trade magazine about broadcasting. That was during the Arab Spring, so that was fortunate. Then I moved to New York, where I bummed around and ended up being a receptionist at a reality TV show because they liked my accent. Then I moved to Berlin. I went to Somalia, and then I got on the freelance wagon. But yeah, that is around the house's way of getting to journalism.

Oof, yeah. I mean, mine is a little similar, a little not similar. I worked a bunch of crummy jobs to do some traveling when I was younger. And then I decided I wanted to make documentaries. So I worked, again, I moved back home. I worked a bunch of, I was working as a, like a, like a,

I don't even know what you would like an assistant, like a crummy real estate company. I was like an AP on like big movie sets and things like that on sets, like in the all like, just like, you know, crummy office work. But I saved money because I live at home. And I took like a one month class on how to shoot film. That's actually where I met Toby.

And then I went and I tried to make a documentary about African refugees in Israel. I got back, the documentary didn't go. And this is like probably my mid twenties documentary didn't go anywhere, but I thought it was good. So I use that to go to the city university here for journalism school, which I did for a year and a half, which was great because American universities like Columbia, NYU are tens of thousands of dollars and CUNY is pretty much free. So yeah, I did that.

After that, I started working at newspapers, but never full-time. I was what they call like a stringer or a permalancer, first for the New York Post and for the Wall Street Journal.

At the journal, I knew I wanted to work overseas. So at the journal, I would save up money. And I worked on some big stories where I was paid for it by the hour. So I'd work on some stories like the Boston bombing or Hurricane Sandy, where I would be running for like eight days in a row, like 15, 16 hour days. So you save up some money and then I would start taking trips. So I went, first I went to Northern Iraq and Syria just because I spent a lot of time researching it. I had a contact there.

Met a photographer I could go with, you know, and I did that for like a month, you know, spent a lot of money.

Didn't cover my costs at all. Came back, was able to get like one or two articles out as a freelancer. Back to work for like five months. Went again, this time to Turkey and Syria. Sold a bunch of articles, broke even. Came back, you know, applied for grants, got a grant to go to Burma. Came back from Burma, sold a bunch of articles. And then I got an offer from the guy who was starting Vice News to come work for them. And yeah, and then I went with them and then I was kind of off and running with that.

And that's kind of how I started doing video as well. And then since then, I was there for a couple of years. And since then, it's just been freelancing and trying to, you know, put together shows and series and things like that. And then this. And then this. Yeah. Yeah. We'll see. We'll see. See how this goes. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if I can give anyone advice. I'm probably not the best person to do so. But like, I remember, I remember I was in some like hideous hostel in the middle of nowhere and like,

Burundi and this was only like two or three years ago and I was talking to a friend back home and I was like isn't this the most isn't this the most glamorous cool thing in the world that like I'm in the middle of nowhere in central Africa and like there's a hole in the floor as a toilet and I'm gonna go off into the mountains and do something and sit maybe see some like

fighting or something and he's like that is what you've just described is absolutely fucking terrible and i think it's the worst thing ever and it's funny what you think is cool when you're a journalist i don't know sometimes you feel like sometimes you feel like the the weirdest shittest parts of the job are just like absolutely amazing and i still do think that even though i think to most people they would be just god awful but yeah that's a bit of an aside

Anyway. Yeah, so that's the... I don't know how you would do that now. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone unless they had a substantial amount of money. Yeah. But Brady writes, if you were to put the two most ruthless gangs you both have ever covered against each other, who would win and why? I don't know, man. Like a Royal Rumble? Whichever one was biggest? I don't know how to answer that. I mean, the El Salvador ones that you've gone over, like, I reckon they sound pretty horrendous, the way they're just, like, taking people down in the streets.

Yeah, I mean, there's just a lot of them. Maybe the ones who function, I would say, more like a militia would probably, but I can't remember who that would be or who we've covered. I feel like that would probably be the most...

the most ones you don't want to mess with in terms of, I don't know, like on the street. I have no idea. Nah, I'm trying to think of stuff that, I mean, we've done like billion episodes. There's so many of them anyway. Um, I feel like there's guys who make like YouTube videos about that, you know? I mean, the, the South American cartels are hideous, so I don't want to come up against any of them. Maybe it's just like between the Colombian guys and the Mexican guys. And then I don't know whoever got the most American guns wins.

Yeah, that could be. Oh, yeah, the cartels, of course. Yeah, I don't know how. Yeah, of course. Yeah, the cartels, man. All the Mexican cartels. I guess that the Otoniel, the one that Toby talked about. I'm drawing a blank on the name right now. But yeah, the cartels, of course. I don't think anyone could do anything with them. Yeah, maybe the worst part about that question is that

maybe the two or three worst cartels in the world maybe actually are going to have a fight in the next couple of years. So we'll actually get to see what happens in real life. They are right now. What about the, don't the WA have like an Air Force? The WA have got an Air Force. I don't know. I mean, you don't fuck around with the WA, but also the WA don't really mess around with anyone else either. They just got their own little fiefdom. So I don't know. I don't know. The WA versus the new generation cartel.

Yeah, I mean, the cartels go up and down, but it's definitely... In terms of gangs, cartels, I like that. I mean, in terms of other groups we've talked about, we've done stuff on state-sponsored groups. So North Korea, they seem pretty... Oh, yeah. They seem like they can...

They can do some damage. Don't go in there trying to take down pictures. You'll get killed. Hezbollah, you know, they... So you're saying Hezbollah versus North Korea. That would be a good fight. Yeah, that's a good showdown. Someone should do a YouTube video about that. I mean, I'd watch that. They keep blinders against the war. Let's see how that goes.

Trist B, are you guys aware of any Western nations taking direct military action against South American drug trafficking organizations? I don't know. I feel like the US has done that in Mexico, no? Or was that more federal? I guess so. Yeah, what's the thing with cartel stuff? We're not experts on that stuff. There's so much...

so much out there on that and there's people who look at it like every single day like those reddit boards are insane um yeah i don't i don't stay up to date with like every little thing i don't know you know the top 50 guys in each cartel and stuff like that like we're not i'm not tapped in like that and i don't have the uh the focus or the patience to really dive into it like that you know yeah i mean you're coming to us for belize right guys i mean it's belize north korea i don't know yeah

We're not particularly experts on the cartels, but we'll do plenty of shows on the cartels. Yeah. And then we are experts, and you should listen to us at least 10 times over. Here's one. If you had to be Instagrammed in the crime of any pod subject, who would you prefer and least prefer? I mean, I would definitely...

Okay. I don't know if I understand the question, but I think it's like, who do you want to be involved? Like the guys, all the, the Nigerian scammers that we did who were just like living in luxury. I don't know. They seem like they were just like eating shellfish platters on, on private jets. I feel like I would get down with that. That seems like fun to me. If I want to go back to Dubai anytime soon. Uh,

But who else is like, who else is living their best life? Who else is having a good time? I think a lot of them have a good time here and there, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to, I'm trying to think again, like, I don't know. I love Berlin. I just be in one of the clans and just like hit it up at the shisha bar. That'd be cool. It's pretty much what I'm doing anyway.

Yeah. Who would I least? I think Toby talked about Otoniel, the Colombian drug lord that was just caught. He was quote-unquote living like a peasant, just like on the back of a donkey in the jungle, getting sick all the time. Other cartels, the Colombian government hunting him.

That sounds very unpleasant to me or any of the ones that are in, uh, in prison, but I guess it's like who would, while they're committing the crimes. Yeah. That sounds, that sounds very unpleasant to me. So talking about people who you don't want to piss off, probably a Tony L if he's listening to the show, like I didn't do that answer, mate, that was Danny. So yeah, he's locked up right now. He's not going anywhere. I mean, do we think he's going to stay there? I guess he's actually going to be in the U S so yeah, he might actually stay put.

Yeah, I don't think he's going anywhere anytime soon. You know, Sean, people are always asking us to do cyber stories, but I have a 2012 MacBook Pro. I don't know anything about computers. But if you like the Underworld podcast, you are sure to like What the Hack with Adam Levine. Cybercrime is the new frontier for scammers and criminals. Ransomware is rampant. New forms of fraud emerge every day. And hackers have no shortage of ways to compromise your machines, stalk you, and steal your money. How can you stay up to date?

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Oh yeah, I've been getting deep into this mystery.

been really enjoying kind of how beautiful the scenes are and also been enjoying uh building my house because yeah in the game you get to build loads of stuff around your house and it's pretty much the only time i've ever got a sniff at the property ladder so that's pretty good for me it's testing your powers of observation your memory logic skills all of that and it's a good time make sure you download june's journey for free today on the apple app store or google play

You know, Sean, doing what we do, conflict journalist, everyone I know in this career has had to find a therapist at one point, but it's expensive. It's a hassle to find someone. It's a hassle to go to their office. Now there's betterhelp.com slash underworld pod. You can go there. You can find a therapist. They'll be communicating within 48 hours. It's safe. It's a private online environment. It's super convenient. Yeah. I mean, I use better help myself. It's been super useful. All kinds of things. I mean,

You just have to go on the website. You'll get hooked up with a therapist that's kind of suited to your needs really quickly. And you'll be off and away. And like you say, it's just way, way easier and less costly than going to do talk therapy across town, which is a pain in the ass. We all know that.

You'll get 10% off your first month by visiting our sponsor, BetterHelp. That's H-E-L-P dot com slash underworldpod. Join over a million people today. Here's one from Jim. What is something about the podcast that you want people to know that they might not know? Yeah, I just think like...

you know, we, we try to get four episodes out every month, which means that Sean and I are picking a topic, researching it, taking notes and then writing it up with the ones that we've already reported on. It's a little easier, but it's like, you know, we, we, we really do try our best. And if we get a couple of things wrong here and there, uh, you know, we, we, we,

We try not to. We try to be as accurate as we can. And it's just a lot. We're really trying to get you guys really interesting, really great stories as much as we can. And we're really appreciative for everyone who's listening. And this thing keeps growing. So that's pretty cool. But yeah, we're putting a lot of work into this. And yeah, I mean, that's pretty much it. What about you? Yeah, I mean...

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I guess if this show tells people anything, it's that we do actually really, really enjoy getting feedback and talking to you guys. And like hearing you message us on the IG and get in touch on the Patreon and like help us make these things. It's like it actually does mean a ton. It does mean a lot.

And we really enjoy chatting to you guys. I mean, I've been chatting to a couple of guys just today. Like one was in Bali. Another one was in the US, I think. About like some really interesting stuff that they were getting up to. So yeah, just like reach out. We want to hear from you.

Yeah, and I would say too, that's another thing too. I feel like people on podcasts a lot want to be like they're experts. I don't think we're, we're not experts in all this stuff. I think what we can do well with the stuff that we haven't been able to actually get out and report on is finding the experts and quoting them. But if you really want those really, really,

academic expert things. You know, buy the books that we talk about. Look at the academic papers. If you really want to dive deep into the stuff, don't just listen to like two guys on a podcast or two guys on any other podcast. I mean, that's for any subject in general. You know, do your own. Yeah, I was going to say, do your, I was going to say, do your own research, but you can't say that anymore now, right? That's such a, do your own research with people who actually know what the hell they're talking about. That's what I mean. Like actual, like,

you know, journalists who have dedicated years to this academics, things like that. Like listen to those people. Yeah. All right. That's, that's probably a good note to leave it on. Right. Yeah. No, no, we got a couple more. Do you, let's face it. Yeah. A couple more. Okay. Uh, Tony Benz is how do you take your coffee or tea? If you put the tea in there just cause I'm British. I mean, I don't really get tea. So,

uh coffee trader i mean coffee third wave maybe with a bit of oat milk uh flat white i don't know black coffee whatever i don't care as long as it's like get me out of bed in the morning yeah i used to i used to be really big into just getting like bitter black coffee from the bodega and putting ice cubes in it so i could drink it as fast as possible but i'm pretty sure that was part of the reason that destroyed my stomach lining so now i just drink like uh

whatever cold brew I can find with some milk in it and that's it. That's all I got. Send us coffees. Is that a thing? Isn't there a thing where you send someone a coffee but you just send them five bucks? The coffee thing. Just do the Patreon, guys. It seems annoying. Anyway, Sean O'Connor, big fan of your work. Thoughts on decriminalization of drug usage in the US and whether it will affect the production and sale of illicit substances from Mexico and South America.

I mean, I don't know. They're not going to decriminalize cocaine and heroin, which is where the real money is coming. I think there's still some people making money off of weed, but I don't know. And then also the weed situation in the US right now is crazy. Like in California, people getting robbed left and right, grow houses getting hit. It's pretty gnarly out there because the lack of federal oversight. But I think...

Yeah, I mean, I think, of course, if you decriminalize anything, and I think it will have an effect. I don't think... I don't know, man. They're not going to decriminalize cocaine or heroin. So I don't know how that would work. I mean, look, there are drugs that are big in Berlin, that Berlin is famous for, like MDMA, ecstasy. They're not doing any harm, ever. Like, they've been proven to be way less harmful than alcohol, tobacco, like, all of this stuff. So, like...

It's like the whole idea that there's just this blanket term of like legal drugs is just complete like bullshit anyway. Like definitely those sort of like, I don't know what you call them. Were they hallucinogenic? I mean, sometimes they're hallucinogenic. But that's not the question. The question isn't whether they should be or shouldn't be. Is it, if they're decriminalized, do you think it will affect, you know, the production and the illicit sale? Um, it depends on the situation down south of the border, right? More than, more than anything up north. Hmm.

And I can't wait to get that, that pure Philip Morris ketamine. That'll, you'll have a good time. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

So, I mean, I don't, it's such a complicated question. I mean, I obviously think weed being pretty much legalized in the U.S. definitely cut down on it coming from Mexico. A lot of other countries definitely cut down on that, especially because that weed was usually not great. And that's another thing too, like the technological breakthrough in, you know, freaking chemists and scientists like growing extremely powerful weed and really fine tuning it.

definitely had that effect of removing some of the market for all the other dirt weed that we used to get where you have to pick season stems out and all that. But I guess it has to to a degree, right? Yeah, I mean, it's going to, but I wouldn't want to put a bet on how it's going to change that production.

Because, I mean, you know, if you decriminalize cocaine, the coca is still going to come from the same places. So you're going to have to find a supply chain somewhere, and that's going to be corrupt, and that's going to just reflect the politics of that country. So, you know, you can legalize cocaine in California, but you're still going to be getting the coca from Peru. And that's my intelligent academic take on it.

Von Nelson Lee is our last question. What was a gangster interview experience that surprised you the most? I don't think I have one that way. I mean, it's always weird to talk to these guys and have them be like relatively normal and making jokes and trying to be charming, but it's not... I don't think I've had someone where it's been like super shocking to me. The love... I mean, I've had...

You know, like fighters in Syria who really love Diane Keaton and all the divas, like the singers. You know, Mariah Carey and Celine Dion and all that. That's always a little surprising. But in terms of gangster stuff, I don't think I've had anything that's super surprising. What Diane Keaton movies are they into? Not Diane Keaton. I'm sorry. That's a mistake. Diane Lane. Oh, right. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, Diane Lane's cool, I guess. Yeah. I was going to say, are they watching a load of Woody Allen films? Or is that not really making sense? No, Diane Lane, not Diane Keaton. Yeah, two different people. I don't know. I mean, there was a kind of funny story. We did an episode on it. I did a story for GQ in Iceland a couple of years back on a big Bitcoin heist. And I met a guy who was like really violent drug smuggler, used to take stuff over and rot a damn as everything comes from in Europe.

And he was just like joking around, having a beer, just talking about beating the living shit out of someone in like a way that was kind of both endearing and completely terrifying at the same time. Because it was Iceland, everything was just like nice and jaunty and fun. So it never seemed dangerous. I don't know. That guy was really, really interesting. Yeah, I think that about does it. So happy holidays to everyone. If you want to, you know,

Give us a happy holidays. Patreon.com. I think this might be the most I've hyped it up. I was wondering how you were going to segue to that one. It's hitting those wallets, man. I got nephews, bro. I got to take care of them. Patreon.com slash The Underworld. I got to take care of myself, too. Patreon.com slash The Underworld podcast. Thank you guys for putting up with this special episode. And yeah, we've got more stuff coming. We're going to keep going.

Even next week, we have a new episode and we're not stopping. So please keep listening and tell your friends about it and give us five-star ratings and subscribe. When this one runs out, just let all the other ones play through for the next 12 hours as well. Help us out here.

Hey guys, it's Melissa Gorga from Melissa Gorga on display and I am very excited to give you a little look into episode two. I am going to be talking to New York Times bestselling author Dave Quinn, who wrote the book with all the juicy scoop on art.

all the Real Housewives. Dave, I'm so excited to talk to you. I am thrilled to be here, Melissa. And I have to say, you have so much behind the scenes that happened on the Real Housewives of New Jersey that you've never spoken about before. So I'm ready to get you to open up about all those things. Let's make amends for the tea you didn't spill when we talked in the book because you were so nice to everybody.

And I promise you, Melissa, I'm not going to sing on display to you over and over again. But just know that in my head right now, that's what's playing on read. Of course it is. What else would be playing in your head right now? Okay, listeners, make sure you listen to episode two of Melissa Gorga on display.