cover of episode Beyond a Reasonable Doubt | 6

Beyond a Reasonable Doubt | 6

2023/4/4
logo of podcast Crime Beat

Crime Beat

Chapters

The episode introduces Terrie Ann Dauphinais, a young Metis woman whose life and tragic death are detailed. Her background, family life, and relationship with Ken Dauphiné are explored.

Shownotes Transcript

Hey, it's Nancy. Before we begin today, I just wanted to let you know that you can listen to Crime Beat early and ad-free on Amazon Music, included with Prime. On the evening of April 28, 2002, at about 9.30, a young woman was captured on surveillance video at a Calgary grocery store.

She casually strolled the aisles, stopped to read labels, and carefully selected items to put in her shopping cart. After she paid, she left the store with her purchases. That was the last time she was seen alive. We knew it was a homicide right away. It's just, personally, it's heartbreaking. It was in the creator's hands.

I'm Nancy Hixt, a senior crime reporter for Global News. Today on Crime Beat, I share a case that went cold for nearly two decades before her family had any hope of justice. This is Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, the story of Terry Ann Dauphiné.

On a cool, overcast morning in the quiet northwest Calgary community of Citadel, a family member stopped in for a visit at Terry Dauphiné's home.

The young woman was shocked by what she found inside. When the first responders arrived at the house, they found Terri-Ann deceased by the front door inside the house. They also found three children that were locked in their rooms in the house as well. That's Calgary Police Superintendent Cliff O'Brien. Back in the early 2000s, he was a detective with the Homicide Unit.

There were a lot of things in that scene that made it very suspicious, but certainly looking at the victim, it was pretty clear that the victim had been killed. Terry Dauphiné's parents, Sue and Tony Martin, vividly remember getting the call from police. Just that she was murdered in her home. The three children locked up. Well, two of them locked up in the bedroom and baby in the car seat in the back closet.

Tony Martin said investigators kept their cards close to their chest. They always have this, you know, can't tell you this, can't tell you that, all that, even though we've come very close with a lot of these people, they're fine people and everything, and they did all they could do, but they do everything possible to never answer a question. Before I get into further details of what happened and how this case unfolded, I want to take you back to learn more about Terry Dauphiné.

Tony and Sue Martin had a blended family. With six girls, Terry was the second oldest. When we got married, we became one family unit. They weren't his children and they weren't my children. They were our children. Terry Ann was born on February 21st, 1978. Eight pounds, eight ounces, 24 inches long. She loved school. She aced it.

She was an honoured student. In fact, she graduated high school just before she turned 16 and had scholarships to go to any university here in Canada. Her life's mission was to become a doctor and that was all that was to it, so she dedicated herself to school. She was never really any problem. Out of all the kids, she was probably the easiest one to deal with, you know.

She never really got in trouble. She wasn't saucy as the other ones and everything. She was just pretty passive, you know, and very easy to get along with. And we had a great relationship, you know. Every Saturday morning, we all gathered around on the couch for cartoons and pancakes, and that's the way life began. When Terry was about 11 years old, the family took in a teenage boy who was four years older. He seemed to be a nice young guy who was really headed down the wrong path.

And, you know, the families got together. We all sort of became friends and everything. Ken Dauphiné became like a son to Sue and Tony. Loved the guy. I just adored him. You know, he was, you know, hanging out with him, playing pool, just being with him and everything like that. You know, he was just great to have around. I mean, I had a house full of girls. Even the dogs were girls. So it was nice to have a, you know, a guy or, you know, like a...

He was just like a son, you know. The Martins said that eventually Ken moved out, but he stayed in touch with the family. And somewhere along the line, Ken and Terry fell in love. I would say she was probably close to 16 and he was maybe 19, something like that. I wasn't happy about it at all. I had lots of serious discussions with him over that, but it was too late. There was nothing I could do at that point. Terry was very beautiful, but

She didn't have that self-esteem thinking she was beautiful enough to deserve better. So when Ken paid attention to her, it was like, wow, a boy's paying attention to me. Just that they were too young to be doing what they were doing. And, you know, why didn't they take some time apart and see if this was the way they wanted to go and stuff? I mean, there's no way that you can force anybody. Even in 2002, I mean, you know, if you tell them that it's dark outside, they're going to say, no, the sun is up. There's nothing you can do about it.

In 1998, when Terry was 20 years old, she married Ken Dauphiné and started a family. By the spring of 2002, they had three children, a four-year-old girl, a two-year-old son, and a baby boy. Superintendent Cliff O'Brien said police learned early on in the investigation Ken had moved out. And we were able to determine from some witnesses that there was definitely some

domestic incidents within the home prior to, months prior to the homicide. Investigators interviewed those closest to Terry. That began with the children that were in the house.

And that led to also talking to neighbours, obviously talking to the family member that had located Terri-Ann to try to get some background. And that led us to the grocery store where she had been the night before. It led us to some other people that could talk about the estranged relationship that she had. Police also retraced Terri's final steps. When our forensics unit got to the scene,

Not only had the children been locked up within the rooms, but they also noticed that the power had been off at some point in that house. There was no power outage reported within the community, so it was that particular house we could see some of the devices blinking. And so we knew that the power had been off at some point in the house. How that played into the file, we didn't know, but it was something that was noted.

When we took a look at the scene, which is your typical house in a nice neighbourhood, there was no signs of forced entry. We did see some evidence of what may have been considered as staging.

There were some things that we saw that made it look like perhaps somebody was trying to make it look like there was a forced entry, but in fact there was no forced entry. So we did see some glove marks on the window, but that window had never been entered. We saw some of those types of things around the house and it was obviously something that we had to look into. Investigators brought in the victim's estranged husband for questioning.

How do you pronounce your last name? Dauphin? Oh, okay. Dauphin. What nationality are you? Romanian. Oh, all right. Grandfather of my dad's side. Oh, okay. I did speak with a lawyer and he said not to make any statements. But police kept pressing for information. I would really like to know what happened because I don't see that. I don't see it as Ken purposely went over there for something to happen.

I think this is something that wasn't meant to happen. You didn't mean to hurt her. I don't even know what happened so far. All I've been told is I have been arrested for the homicide of my wife. Okay. Period. Yeah. And you were the last person I understand that was in the house. And that's why we're trying to piece things together.

Ken Dauphiné told police he and Terry had been together for nine years and admitted they were going through a rough patch, but said they were working on reconciling. We've been going to counseling and we've been trying to work it out. And the only reason I wasn't living at the house was because we had had an argument that had

Dauphiné said he spent time with Terry and their children the evening before she was found dead.

at about 9 o'clock last night. I stayed with the kids in the house while she went and got groceries. She took about an hour. And, you know, we came back and we talked in the afternoon when I was there. We had...

Okay.

So I just thought it was probably not a good idea for me to spend the night. But as we were talking, I thought you mean we were intimate again. And then I told her that I really should go because it's going to be confusing for the kids. So I left about 11.30. So it sounds like things were starting to get better between you. Much better.

Superintendent O'Brien said investigators had gathered evidence that made them question Dauphiné's story. The fact that there was no signs of forced entry, so it was somebody that obviously or would appear had access, free access to the residence, as well as some of the interviews that were done and looking at the history of the family, it certainly led us to look at the estranged husband very seriously.

Back in the interview room, police suggested Dauphiné killed Terry after she got home from grocery shopping. And I think it is one of those things where the buttons were pushed and things happened so quick and we could only turn back the clock. We could only move that clock back a few minutes, a few moments and say, if I hadn't have done this, I hadn't have done that, things would be different.

Dauphiné refused to admit to anything criminal. I just explained everything that happened between Terry and I last night. And so now I will take the advice of the legal counsel to...

I exercise my right to silence because I feel that I'm being steered down a path that I'm not being serious. We're talking truth shit. You've talked about your relationship. We're talking speculation because that's what you told me earlier. We're talking because I don't know. Because I wasn't there. You know who was there? Do you know who was there, Ken? You were there. You were there and Terry was there. You know that. I was there. You're scared.

It went back and forth like this for hours. It was Dauphiné's right to remain silent. However, the police are allowed to present evidence and ask questions about the homicide.

In this case, Dauphiné continued to answer. He told officers that after he left, Terry locked the door behind him. Dauphiné was questioned a second time the following day. Superintendent Cliff O'Brien said he was then free to go.

So one of the things we always want to do, certainly in homicide files, is work with the Crown Prosecutor's Office and make sure that we have enough evidence that the Crown feels confident to take it to trial. And so in talking to the Crown Prosecutor's Office at the time, they didn't feel that there was enough evidence to charge anybody, even though we had a suspect, which was the estranged husband. So we released him without charge.

I can say that there was no doubt within the homicide unit that this was our suspect and it was the only person that we were looking at at that time. It doesn't exclude that there may be other people involved, but there's no doubt that this was the individual in our minds that was responsible. In the weeks that followed, Global News reached out to Ken Dauphiné for comment. No, they haven't told me anything. I have no information about the situation. I have no knowledge.

As an interesting side note, City of Calgary civic election records show Ken Dauphiné ran unsuccessfully for city council just six months before Terry was killed. Here's Ken's lawyer, Balfour Durr. He was just a really an ordinary guy. He had worked for the city of Calgary as a laborer. He carried on that type of work. So he really was...

just an ordinary joe and that's how life went along for him senior crown prosecutor ken mccaffrey explained to me some of the challenges with this case well back in 2002 the husband was absolutely the suspect the problem is um the evidence there is just not enough evidence to charge him like what kind of forensic evidence was there

Well, the fact is he was a member of the family even though he was estranged. So it wouldn't be surprising that his fingerprints would be there. The accused admitted freely that the two recently had

sexual relations and therefore the fact that there would be semen would not be surprising either. So forensic evidence in this case could not really assist us. As 2002 came to an end, there were no arrests, no charges laid in the homicide of Terry Dauphiné.

As the investigation appeared to stall, Terry's mother, Sue, struggled to cope with the loss. For four years, I couldn't deal with the police or news media or anything like that because I was fighting for my life. Three years after she was murdered, I wanted to end my life. I couldn't take that pain no more. Sue sought healing through her community. Mr. Hustle!

She held vigils and raised awareness for missing and murdered Indigenous women, including Terry. I'm tired of going through detectives. I'm tired of... And I'm not saying all police officers are that way, but not a call in two years. Nothing. Not from the news media, nothing. Terry's father, Tony, also did all he could to keep the case in the media spotlight.

Once the case goes cold, if you don't have people such as yourself and other people that are kind enough to bring it back to light, it just goes in a box. That's the end of it. In this world we live in, unfortunately, there's always a new one and they can't spend time on it. But Superintendent Cliff O'Brien said investigators never forgot about Terry Ann Dauphiné.

It is a balancing act with loved ones because the reality is we have hold back evidence or we have evidence that we're going to need to prosecute if it gets to court. And even if that means it gets to court 16, 17, 20 years later, we still have to protect it. And yet, what do the families want? They want answers. And we have some of those answers, but we can't share them all with the family.

As the years passed, Calgary police hadn't given up trying to find Terry's killer. I think that's our job as homicide investigators is to get that closure, get the answers for the family and work hard to get some type of closure for them. That is, that's paramount for us.

I can tell you that there's nobody, none of the primary investigators before me or since me ever gave up on the file. You know, on the anniversary of her death, we were always calling back in to, even after we left the unit, we're calling back in to find out is there anything else going on? What's going on? Sometimes we would call the family and just, you know, just say, how are you doing?

And just to connect there. So that personal connection with the family became very strong over 20 years, basically. In January 2018, nearly 16 years after she was killed, her husband and children were living in Winnipeg. Here again is prosecutor Ken McCaffrey.

He had custody of all the kids and with the insurance money he got from Terryann's passing away, he had bought a house in Winnipeg and I believe he had various jobs.

That's when Ken Dauphiné became the target of an undercover Calgary police sting. It's a tactic police often use, known as a Mr. Big operation, where an undercover officer plays the role of a criminal kingpin, or a so-called Mr. Big. Basically, it was an organization that was involved in trucking, but that they had a couple of people

side businesses involved with illegal gun trading and also the sale of forged passports. The undercover members befriended Mr. Dauphiney and in the course of befriending him, they offered him a job and took him out for some meals, things like that.

Dauphiné's defense lawyer Balfour Durr gave further insight on the sting, dubbed Operation Homefront. The very first meeting between Mr. Dauphiné and the undercover officer was relatively innocuous. It involved a small amount of

cash for something or other. It was quite small. But there was also a sort of a friendship component to it where the officer was befriending Mr. Dauphiné. And not only did they bring him in to work sort of in their gang doing some of this illegal activity, but it also gave him a social life, some fellas to hang out with, people he could talk to. After months of building trust, the operation intensified.

He received a phone call in the presence of this undercover officer. He received a phone call from a homicide detective, again, all set up, saying, "Listen, we're going to bring you in on the murder of your wife."

That's when Dauphiné met the perceived leader of the network, Mr. Big. Mr. Big sort of lays it out that he's quite impressed with the work that Mr. Dauphiné is doing. The boys are really happy with him. They'd like to include him in what they're doing going forward, give him more responsibilities. That'll come with more pay. But there's this trouble.

that I've heard about. And in order for me to help you, Mr. Big says to him, like, I need to know the details because I have connections with police, with judges, with prosecutors, but I need detail so that we can make sure we get you out of this or we can move you someplace where they'll never catch up with you.

The identity of the undercover officer who plays the role of Mr. Big is protected by a court-imposed publication ban, so we have to alter his voice. In that meeting, Dauphiné tells the officer there's no evidence for homicide detectives to find. I keep telling you that I know there's nothing. Because there isn't anything. Nothing.

Mr. Big pressed Dauphiné for more information.

Here again is Dauphiné's lawyer, Balfour Durr.

Mr. Dauphiné never made a full confession to Mr. Big, and everything that was spoken would be, inferences would have to be drawn from it. Days later, Dauphiné had another videotaped meeting with an undercover police officer.

So his friend, the undercover officer, is then saying to him, "Okay, look, we've got to, we can't let you get arrested. We're going to move. We're going to hide you." And they're going from hotel to hotel, here, there, and everywhere on a daily basis over four days trying to keep him away, supposedly, from the Calgary police who want to come and get him for the murder.

I'm going to share a few excerpts from that meeting with undercover officers. The audio quality is poor, but it's important for me to include it. And a warning, there are a lot of profanities. I mean, there was precautions so that there wasn't DNA. Like what? You were wearing gloves? Yeah. Okay. Stuff like that. So, that stuff's all gotten disparate too. So, it's...

That's why I keep saying there's fucking nothing left. And it's even the little bits that I can remember are fucking feeling really terrible. And it's extra stressful because I've been so vehemently maintaining this other sport for family, friends, and everybody. And whatever, going through this fucking fight all over again.

Going through the whole drama of turning myself in, having the lawyer show them that this is bullshit, that they're making stuff up, and having it be talked out would be fucking marvelous and worth it. Again, the audio of this part of the undercover operation is really hard to hear. Dauphiné mentions to the officer that he thinks he was about to leave when there was a push. We're in fucking trouble. They're going to make us go out.

The day after he made that statement to undercover police on May 21st, 2018, Ken Dauphiné was arrested. It's those little pieces of information that the public has that finally comes forward. And once we receive that information,

it often pushes the file into a great place. And that's what happened here. After waiting nearly two decades for an arrest and the murder of their daughter, the parents of Terri-Ann Dauphiney are speaking out for the first time. Nancy Hicks has been working on this story. And Nancy, this is a huge development for these parents. Linda, Terri Dauphiney's parents have committed their lives to making sure someone would be held accountable for her death. So getting the call from Calgary police this week was huge for them.

And I said, "Is this the call I've been waiting 16 years and 22 days for?" And she goes, "Well, sit down. Yes, it is." So naturally, you know, I almost fell over. It was an unbelievable feeling after all that time.

Tony and Sue Martin were told earlier this week their former son-in-law, Terry's estranged husband, Ken Dauphiney, had been taken into custody, charged with second-degree murder in the case. They say from the day she was found dead in her Northwest Calgary home, they were told that he was a suspect in the case. No, I really didn't think anything was going to happen. But thankfully, Terry had warriors on this case that never, ever gave up that took this case

to heart and they do every case, but it haunted them. The trial was scheduled for 2021. Senior Crown Ken McCaffrey led the prosecution. The Crown's theory was that at some point on the evening in question Kenneth Dauphiné got angry and

put the children in the bedrooms and strangled Terri-Ann and left her dead in the, just outside the front door of the home. But before the trial could begin, a voir dire was held to determine if key evidence would be allowed.

Well, the Mr. Big operation is what's called presumptively inadmissible. So the onus is on the Crown to establish that the evidence gleaned from the Mr. Big operation, that its probative value outweighs its prejudicial effect. So that means that

The evidence has to be very strong, pointing towards guilt, and it must outweigh any bad character evidence that might come into play, any things that would conflict with society's sense of fair play.

The hardest thing that he said in terms of evidence against him was that he grabbed her and that he knocked her out of the way and that she fell down funny. He then went into panic mode and he left. So although that certainly implicates him, it's not the strongest confession by any means.

defense lawyer Balfour Durr argued the Mr. Big operation should not be allowed. Our position was that this evidence was not admissible primarily because it was unreliable, that there wasn't any corroboration support for the things that Mr. Dauphiné was saying to the undercover police officers. And so it really could have been the result of just the inducements, him wanting to stay involved with these undercovers and their gang.

There are strict rules on this so that the police don't take liberties with citizens. You don't get to pressure people unfairly. And that was one of the problems for the police in Mr. Dauphiney's case, that they had pressured him so that there was actually physical changes to him, personality changes over four days where they had him on the run, and they had involved his teenagers.

suggesting to the teenagers that their father was going to be charged with killing their mother in the hope that the teenagers would tell their dad this and that may prompt, soften him up in his communications with Mr. Big, what he said to Mr. Big.

To give a bit more context about what Balfour Durr just said with reference to the teenagers, court heard investigators sent two uniformed officers to their home and said their father was wanted and would be arrested and charged with the murder of their mother and to inquire about his whereabouts. Court heard that the investigators sent two uniformed officers to their home and said their father was wanted and would be arrested and charged with the murder of their mother and to inquire about his whereabouts.

Court also heard the intention was to make the manhunt more realistic to impress upon Dauphiné how seriously the police were searching for him. His defense argued this showed a lack of care towards the teenage children and the effect the police message may have had on them.

There was another key piece of evidence the Crown sought to have entered, videotaped witness statements provided to investigators 16 years earlier. That witness was a four-year-old child. Well, it's very difficult when you have a witness that young, the child.

Obviously the biggest issue is you don't want to lead the child into saying anything or implanting anything with the child so that they say something that isn't true. So police officers are trained to

interview children very carefully with open-ended questions so that what comes out is coming from the child and not from the interviewer. You have to appreciate that standards have changed over the years and the interviews done in 2002 could have been better.

The name of this witness is protected under a court-imposed publication ban. You know, this girl, the four-year-old, was at one point talking about the Cookie Monster having been there and the Cookie Monster having had a flashlight or something like that. And the police were surmising that the Cookie Monster was supposed to be her father.

and that this flashlight was in fact, you know, like a stun gun that was used. And none of that was ever supported medically that there had been a stun gun. And the business of the Cookie Monster was never clear that that was indeed her father because she would know her father and wouldn't need to call him the Cookie Monster. So it was a confusing part of the evidence that seemed to lack any real basis in reality.

The videotaped interview was played in court. During the trial, the evidentiary hearing, that videotape was played for the court and for the girl herself, who was now older, so that she could watch, listen, and see the things that she had said.

So when the trial came along and the prosecution called the daughter so many years later, it was clear that she had a good relationship with her father. He had raised her and that she clearly was supportive of him. Her testimony was basically, "I have no memory of what happened when I was four, no memory in the house. I may have flashes of things, but I can't tell you that they're legitimate and that they're really tied to that night."

I hear myself or see myself in this video that the police took of her four-year-old making the statement, of herself as a four-year-old making the statement. She says, I hear what I say, but I have no recollection today whether that's true, untrue. I can't substantiate it.

Nearly two decades after Terry was killed, it was now up to Court of Queen's Bench Justice Rosemary Nation to decide if both the videotaped statements made by the four-year-old child and the undercover Mr. Big sting operation would be admissible in the trial. The judge ruled most of the statements of the four-year-old inadmissible and also ruled that the Mr. Big operation was inadmissible.

In her decision regarding the Mr. Big operation, Justice Nation noted Dauphiné, quote, never gave much detail, nor did he describe what happened on the evening of Terry Ann's death other than a few fragments of memory.

Adding, the totality of the interrogations led to confusing and contradictory answers against a background of the accused constantly reaffirming that he has no or limited recollection of events. End quote. She set everything out fairly and then...

was actually critical of the police for the tactics they had used in this one, for them using, involving the teenagers at Mr. Dauphiney's home with no one being there and telling them dad was going to be charged with killing their mother and just sort of leaving them on their own to sort that through, however emotionally, physically it took a toll on the children. She was, you know, highly critical of that, as she should have been.

Crown Prosecutor Ken McCaffrey said he was disappointed. The judge and her reasons for decision made comments about the police and basically saying that they went too far in this case. And I know that the police feel strongly otherwise. And I respectfully disagree with some of what the judge said about police conduct.

The problem is that is a finding of fact and the Crown is not allowed to appeal findings of fact. We can only appeal on the basis of errors of law. So even though I may respectfully disagree with the judge,

It's not an appealable ground. With the key evidence in the case now ruled inadmissible, the prosecution decided to stay the proceedings. That essentially halts the court process. Police had up to one year to continue the investigation and revive the charge against Ken Dauphiné. But that didn't happen.

So if the police all of a sudden got new evidence today, what would happen? Nothing. Because to charge him again would be double jeopardy. That's a violation of our charter.

You know, the system is designed that it's better that one, that 100 guilty people go free than one guilty, one person who's not guilty be convicted. And we've had cases of wrongful convictions in this country. We don't want to repeat that again. So although I disagree with some of the judge's findings, I respect her decision.

Here again is Belford Durr. Some people who don't understand the justice system have trouble with it. They think, well, if it wasn't Mr. Dauphiney's, he's not guilty, then someone else had to do it. But if there is no somebody else, then it had to be Mr. Dauphiney and he should have been found guilty. But that's not how the system works. The system works this way. If someone is charged with an offense, the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the person did it.

Terry's parents, Tony and Sue Martin, said it's hard to come to terms with this outcome. Nancy, before the trial, the pre-trial, the trial within the trial and the border trial, and after that call, I gave it to the creator. I put it in the creator's hand. It was too much for me. So whatever happened, it was in the creator's hands. And it is. It doesn't mean that I'm ever going to stop caring and thinking about Terry and missing her.

and hoping the worst for him, but I can't spend every minute of every day anymore dealing with this. I just can't because it's just taken too much already. In the summer of 2022, Calgary police officers met with Tony and Sue Martin, including Superintendent Cliff O'Brien, one of the original investigators on this case.

Just earlier this year, we did sit with the family and we spent an entire day with

Terri-Ann's mom and dad and went through all of the work that had gone on over the last 20 years, including from the primary investigator and the forensic and the patrol officers that responded right up through even after charge and all the work that went on post-charge. And that was the first time that they had heard a lot of the effort and work that we had done.

From my perspective, I'm super proud of all the work that went on. And frankly, I think the community would be proud if they could hear all of the work that went on to get answers for Terryann's family. The Calgary Police Service said it was unable to comment on the Mr. Big Sting operation or Justice Nation's decision on the case, including the criticism of police in that decision.

Although police participated in this episode of Crime Beat, CPS said privacy laws and legal issues prevented them from discussing details of the case that weren't disclosed in court. And I respect the legal system and it is a legal system. It just personally is heartbreaking that I feel that

We weren't able to give that closure to the family as we set out to when we found Terri-Ann deceased. That means with no trial and no chance of future prosecution, most of the evidence gathered during the police investigation will never be made public. Terri's parents said they just want to make sure she's never forgotten.

I just want her to be remembered as a really kind person who loved her kids and she was a very devout religious person. She just loved life. I just want her kids to understand at some point in their lives that they had a wonderful mother that they didn't get a chance to enjoy. That's what it comes down to. It's more important to me than anything.

Thank you for joining me today. And a special thanks to Terry's parents, Tony and Sue Martin, for helping me to share her story. Crime Beat is written and produced by me, Nancy Hixt, with producer Dila Velasquez. Audio editing and sound design is by Rob Johnston. Special thanks to photographer-editor Danny Lantella for his work on this episode.

And thanks to Chris Bassett, the VP of Network Content Production and Distribution and Editorial Standards for Global News.

I would love to have you tell a friend about this podcast, and you can help me share these important stories by writing and reviewing Crime Beat on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. You can find me on Twitter at Nancy Hixt, on Facebook at Nancy Hixt Crime Beat, and on Instagram at Nancy.Hixt. That's N-A-N-C-Y dot H-I-X-T. Thanks again for listening. Please join me next time.