The Other Game: How Athletes Become Brands
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How can a microchip manufacturer keep track of 250 million control points at once? How can technology behind animated movies help enterprises reimagine their future? Built for Change listeners know those answers and more. I'm Elise Hu. And I'm Josh Klein. We're the hosts of Built for Change, a podcast from Accenture. We talk to leaders of the world's biggest companies to hear how they've reinvented their business to create industry-shifting impact.

And how you can too. New episodes are coming soon, so check out Built for Change wherever you get your podcasts. This is Andrew Osorkin with The New York Times. You're about to listen to some fascinating breakout conversations from our annual Dealbook Summit live event, which was recorded on December 4th in New York City. You're going to be hearing experts, stakeholders, and leaders discussing some pretty vital topics that are shaping the business world and the world at large.

Well, y'all, I am so honored to be here. My name is Jess Sims, and it is such a privilege to be surrounded by such incredible human beings. We've already started to talk before the cameras started rolling, but this conversation is going to be great. We are here at Dealbook, and this task force is called The Other Game, How Athletes Become Brands. So without further ado, we got Bomani Jones.

host of The Right Time with Bomani Jones. We got Nafisa Collier, a.k.a. Fee, forward of the Minnesota Lynx and the co-founder, which we're going to talk about, of Unrivaled. We have Renee Montgomery, co-owner and vice president of the Atlanta Dream and two-time WNBA champion and birthday girl. Happy belated. It was yesterday. Let's get it. Let's get it. Right? We got Jesse Palmer, television host and entrepreneur.

Jordan Childs, gold medal winning Olympic gymnast. We got Justin Tuck, retired NFL player and managing director in Goldman Sachs private wealth management. And we've got Hope Solo, World Cup and Olympic champion and activist. So y'all, we're getting right into it. All right, branding. When you hear the word brand or branding, I want you to think of one word or a phrase that immediately pops into your head. Bomani. Money. Fee. Self.

Renee. You stole my word. Come on, wait. I knew. I was going to say. Great minds think alike. Jesse. I feel like it's Price is Right. Now I have to come up with something different. You do. Yeah, I would say Truth. Jordan. Education. Justin.

Opportunity? She stole my adult. Oh, wow. So there was a consensus on authenticity. Go the other way next time. That's a good theme. Start with hope. Right? My initial reaction was exhausting. Oh, that is real. That's by far the best answer anybody gets. 100%. But Justin, okay, so you were going to say authenticity, but you also said opportunity. Now, you specifically...

A lot of us here have already been thinking about what we wanted to do before retirement was even knocking at our door, right? And you specifically, that's part of your story. How are you able to stay so present as an NFL player while also planning for your future? A lot of people ain't going to like this answer, but playing football is very easy. All right. So I didn't find that to be challenging as much. I mean, obviously the talent level in which we play the game, but like just the X's and O's around football was pretty easy. So like,

Whenever I had some down time or some down days, I just tried my best to just go out and really, really...

navigate the world in New York City. And obviously we're talking about branding, and I said opportunity. There's so much opportunity in this city to learn more about what's out there. What is the opportunity in this city? So like, you know, most times under Coach Carlson, we would have Mondays off or the evenings on Mondays off and Tuesdays off. Tuesday, I was trying to be in the city meeting with hedge fund managers, you know, real estate agents, a person that might own 50, you know,

Wendy's or whatever it may be because I grew up in a place where there wasn't a lot of opportunity and I didn't necessarily get exposure to a lot of different things. So when I came to New York, I just looked at that as being an opportunity to be exposed to a lot of different things, especially given the brand that we had as football players in the city. I just want to point out that

Justin said football was easy because he played defensive end. I am the only person up here that played and started at seven different positions and lined up at 11 different positions in my time in the NFL. Justin never had to read a coverage or throw a pot. Gentlemen, gentlemen, it's the first five minutes.

He's already diving into it. I would like to pitch in here. I mean, I had a sack at left end, right end, left tackle, right tackle, outside linebacker, safety. Yeah.

Jordan's got her hand. I would like to say, I appreciate that. You say that football is easy because every football player. And as a gymnast, they tell me that gymnastics is not hard and that football is hard. So I appreciate, that's crazy. I appreciate you saying that, but to go off of what he was saying about the opportunity,

As a gymnast, we do have opportunities within our sport. It's a little different. We don't get to just wake up as NFL or NBA players and just go do our stuff. We actually have to educate ourselves. And that's why I said education, because as a brand, you have to educate yourself and you learn things throughout your lifetime of who you are trying to be. So with gymnastics, that's something that I was able to focus on and educate myself what it's like to, one, we do flip on a four inch piece of wood. That's education itself. Wow.

Like trying to navigate China, you know, which direction this, that and the other. So I definitely would say, you know, the opportunity is always going to be there. But that's why I said education, because it's something that you get to educate yourself. Not only the younger generation gets to see you branding yourself or branding whatever you're trying to do, but also yourself.

You're learning yourself as well. And that's that's I was going to say the authenticity as well. And once you said I was like, man, I got to find a new word. But I think that all goes into play with, you know, every single word that we did say goes into branding.

Absolutely. Yeah. I was going to say, and I was curious to kind of hear everybody else's perspective on this too. Um, I think sometimes when we all get done as, as athletes, you're obviously stepping out of your comfort zone into the next realm or facet of your life and what you're, what you're going to be doing. I always felt like one of the biggest challenges was trying to find the next thing that gave you the rush that you had when you were a player.

I feel like as a player, sometimes that feeling of competing and being, being out in front of people, millions of people at home watching, there's a performative aspect to that. And I think oftentimes for athletes, it's really, really difficult to simulate that in the quote unquote real world once you get done. And I think when we talk about branding and what the next step is and what we want to become when we're finished, have you guys ever felt, um,

a challenge trying to replicate. I mean, he is still competing at a high level. I would say for me, my journey is a little bit different because I went from one year I was a player to the very next year I'm a team owner. So competition still looks. First player ever. Thank you, Jessica. Come on, do your homework, Jessica.

But I feel like the competition in the sports world is still the same. And it's actually moving faster being in the WNBA right now. I'm sure everybody has seen that it's, it's exploding. Like every team there were, I'll call it the coaching draft this year. There were seven. Yeah, there were 17.

teams that had to get new coaches this year. There were new GMs happening this year. It's an explosion. Everybody's asking like, why is there so much change happening in the WNBA right now? But that's what always happens when a business is leveling up. Like that's, that's what always happens when a business goes from one, uh,

let's say level to another one, everybody, you don't want to be left behind. And it's not necessarily the coaches. The coaches are just an aspect of it, but it really is the league as a whole. The business side is booming. Like we're doubling the amount of employees. We're doubling the amount of everything because the resources are going up everywhere. So I think like I'm still in a very competitive space. Like sports is always going to be competitive. Like did we win this year? No. Did we sell out 20 of 20 games? All right, we got a little dub then. All right, we go pop a little.

But I do think that thing that you're talking about, that search, I don't know. It's interesting because it's like I'm a little bit psycho and I'm just competing at all times for you start to compete about things that ain't even competitive then when when you get to certain things. But I do know what you're talking about. I was going to say, I feel like as athletes, like you get that rush from the competitiveness. I get that rush more on away games. Like when we score, we can silence the crowd than I do at home games like when I'm scoring.

And so I'm still playing, like you said, but I also get that rush through unrivaled. Like every time I get a brand deal, it feels like I won. That's what I'm talking about. So I think like, I don't know how you guys feel, but I get that rush when I win at something. So even whenever I'm done playing basketball, whatever field I'm in, I'm going to be super competitive in it. And I'll get that rush whenever I win.

accomplish something. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Like you get a big deal. Y'all not turning up. Like y'all not like excited when you hit that. Come on, you managing money. You're not excited when you... Yeah, but to your point, I think for me it's about, you know, I acknowledge the excitement, but it's also like the risk factor. Like,

Not knowing what's around the corner like in football is obviously a lot of things as well Like not knowing what the play is gonna be and how to react and respond to it But it's the same thing in finance where it's like not knowing like I have clients who call me out of the blue that phone rings and I pick it up I have no idea what they're gonna ask me about I got to be prepared I gotta have my T's crossed my eyes dotted. I don't know what the market is gonna do Everyone thinks that cuz we're in the in the business. We just have this crystal ball of saying hey, you know, I

Fortune 500 is going to go up 6% this year. We have no idea. We have educated guests, but we have no idea. So that rush is important to me. But I just want to go back to something because we didn't pause on this. I've heard of player coaches. I've heard of elite players. I've never heard of player-owner coaches.

We just skimmed right over there, by the way. I heard you do it, but then you said player owner? Yeah, owner exec, because shout out to Lisa Leslie. She was the first player turned owner. But I think owner exec, the thing for me was like being a part of the front office because there's ownership and then there's like,

what what are we doing to market our players you know like there's there's different levels and so for the dream I felt like as a player they would post stuff of us and it's like this is trash I'm not reposting this of my and it was of myself you know so I wanted to like we wanted as a whole group because it's not even just me Suzanne and Larry we wanted the players to be like you know we love our content we love what y'all are doing we love playing here a lot of people in the WNBA they

had a certain mindset about Atlanta. It's like, we had the city where a lot of athletes live, but we can't get free agents. Like, what is going on? Like, everybody loves the city of Atlanta, but we couldn't get free agents. So that was my main thought of like, we are a destination. Like, we got to be that. But the owner, exec, I have to give it to my wife because when she first told me, why don't you buy the team? I was like, baby, what you talking about? What?

So it was never even a thought before your wife brought it up. No, it was. I mean, kind of because if everybody knows the story, it started to get very tumultuous with our previous ownership. And so everybody was kind of whispering that like there might be an ownership change and

I'm thinking like, well, I hope somebody good comes in. And then that's kind of when LeBron sent the tweet and I shot my shot. Like, I'm ready when you are, boss. And, you know, that's that's the rest was history. But I think it was just that's why I think the circle around me has given me nuggets my whole life about like, why don't you do this? And then I start to think about it. I'm like, why don't I do this? And so, yeah, no, I can't take credit for that. It was not a thought process at all. I thought I'd be an entertainment person.

But here we are. Well, so it's interesting when you think of the health of an athlete, obviously hydration, food, recovery, sleep, all this good stuff. But you don't automatically think social network, the people that are around you. How important is that network around you as you are not just building your brand, but then evolving into new spaces? It's very important. I just have to say, man, as many circles I've done, gone through and left, I

I would say the biggest thing is like how you're saying with the health part of it. I think having the right support system, my circle is literally the size of like I can't even say a pea, but I can't because I get smaller than that. And I think just understanding that the people that you have within your, you know, your circle, your relationships, whether it's family, friends, you know, cousins, uncles, however it is, your own coaches, understanding that those people can uplift you.

is a little easier for you. And that is where that health does come into play. Yes, we can drink water. Yes, we can, you know, go have a salad here and there or whatever it is, go eat a cookie. But knowing that you have that support system sitting on your shoulder can give you a better understanding of what your dream is. For me, I went through...

a crazy coach situation. Back in 2018, I was verbally and emotionally abused and not mentally being okay. That's health, right? You go through trauma. You go through a lot of things. You, you know, I went through, I basically, how I explained my life during that timeframe is being in a box that is completely black. And every single time you think you find the light, it disappears.

And during that time frame, I couldn't figure out anything. I thought, you know, gymnastics wasn't for me. I thought the people in that circle didn't want me. There was just a lot of things. But when I finally found those bright people in my circle, I got better and I was feeling healthier and I was feeling, you know, the importance of what it's like to actually have a good support system. And to understand that, that goes back to what you were saying about, you know, you never thought of

becoming an owner like first off that's crazy in itself like that's crazy for you to play pro for one year and then being like you know what I'm just gonna go on a dream I played for 11 years well 11 years that's so crazy like first off I don't know how WNBA do what they do I say WNBA is harder than gymnastics personally that's how I think of it I would disagree but no that's

No, no, no. That's what I'm going to say. But it goes back to how you were saying that you never thought of becoming an owner, right? Until somebody nudged you to do that. And I think having those people constantly nudging you and constantly doing those things...

it brings you more health into your life and you're at ease and it's easier. So I definitely can say like having the right support system is like the biggest thing that you can really just rely on. I think it's important too, that people are in your circle are genuinely behind you and happy for your success, which I think as athletes sometimes isn't always the case. I think sometimes you have teammates that high five you after you score and they're excited about that. But when you sign your new contract,

They're upset and they're talking behind your back and Justin and I played in locker rooms in the past where we you know we kind of experienced a little bit of that as well. And I think that support group is obviously really important personally and I think in business

It's important as well. It's like picking your teammates or trying to find a system offensively that you feel like you fit in, that you can thrive in. When I started my apparel brand, Jay Palmer, I was so new to the sports apparel space. I had no idea what I was doing, but what was really important was finding the right people to partner with.

that have done it before, that knew the answers, that could really sort of hold your hand through everything. And so, you know, with 05, that have done that before with other people and created apparel, and then with Fanatics that has the licensing deals with the NFL. I mean, that was paramount. So it is really important, that support group, what you're talking about,

personally, obviously. And also I think whenever we're stepping into the, into entrepreneurial stuff or into business, it's really, really important as well. Yeah. Hope, you're going to say something? Not necessarily. I mean, you guys have my thoughts going every which direction. This is a great conversation. I think, um,

Most importantly, I want to take my hat off to many of you here who are able to be entrepreneurs, who are able to basically be a full-time athlete, professional athlete, many of us, and also a full-time social media presence. And I know it was never for me. It was exhausting. We talk about trust and having this core group of people around you.

But then there's this other sense of opening yourself up to the world through social media. And my whole story is a little bit different because when social media really started coming into play during our World Cup and Olympics, we looked at it as toxic. It was a distraction. Players cared more about what fans would say about them prior to the game, after the game. They'd spend more times on their phone than actually interacting with your teammates and

So we came from this really different timeline where we didn't appreciate it. And so thinking about building a brand, for me, it wasn't there. I guess you're always building a brand in essence, but for me, it was about winning. I was a straight athlete.

I had my blinders on from a very young age. I wanted to play in the World Cup. I wanted to play in the Olympics. I wanted to win every award I could win and be the best goalkeeper I could be. And I wanted our defense to be better. And it was always working to be better on the field. Also at that time, as women athletes, our national team was looked at as the girls next door and the ponytail posse. And I was competitive.

I was hardcore. That was my brand. I wanted to win at any cost. I wanted to win. But I didn't play, like, the games, the social media. I didn't do any of that. And so at some point, you know, I had my agents. I had everybody telling me to go on Dancing with the Stars, to do all these things I didn't want to do. I had so much anxiety and so much other things to take care of outside of the sport that

that I didn't see the benefits of it. So then I realized, well, shoot, I'm not making enough money just playing soccer, so I better get into it. I better figure out how this works. And I still didn't like it. I didn't have the energy for it. I felt like I was opening myself up to everybody. It isn't really until right about now, 10 years removed from the game,

where I see the benefits in my branding and I am excited and I can roll with it and there's good opportunities, but it took a very long time. And I think it took so long because I wasn't always able to tell my story. It was traditional media coming up with headlines saying Hope's solo's outspoken or she's this or she's that. And so what's amazing is now I appreciate social media because we as athletes can take control of our own stories. And I never understood that.

I just was trying to do my job, hardcore athlete, get the job done. And now I'm actually seeing the benefits. So I'm learning, you say education. I am learning from all of you guys all of the time. And it wasn't really until my Netflix series came out. It's called Solo vs. U.S. Soccer. I was the first female athlete to sue their employer for equal pay.

And when you talk about getting that feeling like you're playing in a stadium World Cup final, the only time I've ever had it was when I was fighting passionately for equal pay. And I realized when my passion for fighting for equal pay was bigger than my passion to play soccer, I knew I was done with playing soccer. But anyways, when the Netflix documentary came out, I cried for three days. I saw it first before it aired.

I called my manager. I was so scared for it to come out. I was bawling for three days. And then it came out. And to see people's reception towards it after I was vulnerable and I opened myself up, I couldn't believe the amount of support that I had. And so I guess that's a long way of saying I'm starting to really reap and see the benefits of putting myself out there more. That sounds like authenticity.

Right. I know where you're getting it. You're getting real something. I'm getting a little tinge out of here. And that's so beautiful, Hope, as I watched the documentary, as I told you before we came in here, and your vulnerability was beautiful. And as a longtime follower of you and fan of you, I was like, wow, this is a whole different side of Hope that I've never seen before. So I'm so excited for your future and your branding and your evolving. But speaking of the social media aspect of it, I'm so happy that you said exhausting because it can't be.

100% it can be. And Bomani, I wanted to ask you, as someone who's been in traditional media, new media, everywhere for over 20 years, you've been covering sports, culture, politics, everything. What have you been seeing? All right. So I was about to say, my athletic career ended in 1994. I didn't know what in the world I was going to be able to do to make this go. Social media, the thing for me with social media was I was an early adopter and figured out very quickly how it worked. And...

A significant portion of what I have personally or professionally is a result of me being able to figure out how to manipulate social media to get people to see the work that I did, because I knew how to speak specifically in the cadence of that space. Right. And I could do that. And I did a bunch of different things. So I was able to pull it off. So my perspective on it is informed very much so as a user.

And to a degree as an observer with like some sort of profile and the idea of branding, because people in journalism at this point have to establish themselves as brands and you have to figure out what you're going to do. The thing that I found interesting about the evolution of social media is that what was very attractive about it, I think, to people in the first place was you got your opportunity to see famous people act like regular people.

And then as the time went on further, it became a place for regular people to act like they were famous. Right? No matter, like, whatever little room you get. Like, if you think about this, if you're a person who has 5,000 followers on a platform, we don't think about that as meaning anything, really. It's not something you can really make money on. But the idea that 5,000 people care about what you have to say, that's a lot of people. Right? Like, whoever would have thought that. How many of those 5,000 are real? That's not the point, is it? Right? So...

All those spaces then started to take on a different level of seriousness in the ways that people use them. Like the days that as soon as businesses started putting statements out using social media,

It couldn't really ever be a truly natural space again because it became the language. It became a language of corporations, even if people don't think that is what they were doing. Like you started seeing regular people putting out happy Veterans Day posts. They ain't thinking about no veterans, but that's what you do. If you're a business, you say happy Veterans Day. You say happy Columbus Day. You do whatever these things are. And so regular people.

began to kick it like that. So what do you think then happens if you are somebody with a legitimate profile, right? You are a professional. I think you were an actual real life celebrity. It becomes a permanent branding game to see what then changes. What I think is most interesting in the evolution of the change is it starts so much younger.

and high schoolers and if we're being honest middle schoolers have this sort of established branding and presence or at least what people think is branding because one thing we haven't done in this discussion is talk about like what we what different people mean different things when they say branding like i hear justin talking about meeting with the hedge fund managers that's leveraging the level of celebrity you have but it's not because of like justin tucker inc

Right. And when Jesse talks about the different things like what you were able to pull off for The Bachelor and then turn that into a clothing line and all of that stuff, like I think a lot of times we mean different things about how you leverage whatever the publicity is that you've got. But a brand fundamentally, when you say authenticity and all that, fundamentally, a brand has to say something when people see it.

You know what this means when this thing comes up. It's the Frank Lucas speech about blue magic and American gangster. It means the same thing as General Mills or anything else. When I see this, oh, this is what I think about. Boom.

It's being adopted so much younger where what becomes interesting to me to watch about the ways that people position themselves is the safe play is what people think is the Michael Jordan play, which is to not really say anything interesting. That only worked because Michael Jordan is the coolest dude in the world. He didn't have to say anything, right?

Charles Barkley is in Deion Sanders are the market in place because whether you liked it or not, what they said was very clear. It felt like something when people saw it in 40 years later with Charles, 35 years later with Deion. Deion is the greatest marketing success, branding success of all time. And that is it's not about whether you like him. It's about whether you know him. No, you see it and you know what it is.

But I think the ways that people are approaching this is to try to make the safe play and don't get in no trouble and don't mess up with all the stuff that you've had. And so people kind of turtle back and just post a bunch of stuff that is entirely inauthentic because this is what it all is supposed to look like. So to me, the biggest change that we have is I find in watching athletes that athletes are less interesting from a distance than ever because –

No, no, no, no, no. But you think about how it proceeds and who different people are. I said from from a distance, you know, but from a distance, people afraid to give you anything. And I get why they are. But as that happens, it doesn't seem like it's that much fun for anybody involved. It's just an attempt at a money play. They're very often money that doesn't ever come.

I think it's the opposite. I think you get more money by being really politically correct. Like, because if you are really controversial, only very like certain brands that are aligned with what your controversy is will align with you. So if you are more like generic, like you said, then you get more deals through more people. I guess. And I think that's, that's certainly a fair point, but I think I'm speaking less about being controversial. Like I'm not saying you're going to get a bunch of deals being Colin Kaepernick, right? Like you're not going to be out here selling cool whip,

and taking a knee at the same time. No, that's not going to happen. But I think giving people something to hold on to, something to differentiate yourself, something that creates...

a feeling rather than simply an alignment. I have a hard time believing that that isn't long-term, that that won't be an effective play. It's tough because of social media. I think like that same social media that you're talking about, think about when you do make a statement, like, and especially, I mean, we're in the WNBA space. So I know that I've seen people online say that when they're fans of men's sports and when they're fans of women's sports, some things get, let's say taken differently, but kind of the fees point, it's like,

Everybody ain't able to speak their mind and have a brand still back you. A lot of times brands don't even want it. Like we have a couple NFL players here, but there's a lot of brands that will support the NFL, support the NBA and are not sponsors of the WNBA. Like even if you take it to our city of Atlanta, there's multiple companies that have a deal with the Falcons, the Hawks, Atlanta United, you name it, the Braves.

but they don't have a deal with us. We're the only team in the city they don't have a deal with. Now, imagine you take that, we already don't have a deal, and now you have an outspoken player. What do you think will happen with the grand deals-wise? I guess you, but that's the change, right? The idea that we are definitely a less conservative society than we were 40 years ago, but in terms of what we're talking about, you had more room for individuality 40 years ago than you

And to that point though, being a sneakerhead, like, so there are ways to differentiate. If you're talking about like, hey, I'm a sneakerhead, like I'm about to show y'all my sneaker collection, that by all means. But when you talk about Charles Barkley and Deion Sanders, they're not differentiating themselves by just being like a sneakerhead. Charles Barkley says whatever he wants to say.

Everybody ain't able. Like, I'm just like, that's a luxury actually that you're discussing. It's interesting because I feel like there are so many copycats out there that feel like they have to try to be Charles Barkley to keep their job on air. I mean, at ESPN, I feel like there are a lot of people out there on TV right now, especially talking about sports and they're yelling and they're arguing at people and they're screaming at them and they don't even believe what they're saying. Yeah, that's crazy. I mean, Charles Barkley,

Charles is the most unique figure. You're correct. We cannot use Charles as the master. No, that's not. No, no, that is not my point. Everybody looked at him like, I need to do that. Yeah, my point is not that you can be Charles Barkley. My point is that the change has come in that

It paid more to take some chances at a different point in time. I mean, but can we go? I was just going to say, I'm just going to throw two names out there and just, you know, polar opposites, but they've won in their own brand. Like think about Steph Curry. He seems to be more conservative, more direct, but it still has his brand and like a phenomenal player. But like, I guess controversy, Jake Paul, like,

Is that the outliers? The outliers that you're talking about? As far as like on one side, they're both making a ton of money on branding, marketing, et cetera, et cetera. But Jake is like Floyd Mayweather in the sense that you can be a jerk if you sell your own stuff.

You know, like Floyd was charging you, come watch somebody try to beat me up like you want to try to beat me up. The greatest unstoppable brand. I don't need no endorsements. There's a million reasons why you shouldn't endorse them, everything else. But when you go and direct a consumer in that way, it's a little different. And I do wonder with Jake Paul, who I have trouble thinking of as an athlete, he just boxes people for money. You know what I mean? And so I think he's playing, I think he gets to play a different game. But I think what we're saying, though, we've seen this all time.

It is what is most different, is that people are prepared to be pitchmen much sooner. And to prepare to be a pitchman is a very safe play to make.

I also kind of think like the allowance for that for like men and women is also very different because you have no people like Charles or Stephen A or like those people on the women's side who are allowed to be that controversial. And like we have areas that we can be different in, but they're like small areas. Like you can't be too different or you can't be too. We just don't have the same like allowance as the men's side does. I think that is absolutely true.

And something I'm thinking about still when you first started talking about money was about brand, knowing what a brand is and who a brand is doesn't necessarily mean success and vice versa. Right. Like I'm still trying to like grapple with this a little bit. Cause it's like, I'm thinking about a brand, like everyone knows McDonald's. It doesn't mean that all of us eat at McDonald's every day, but like, or I might never have it the rest of my life, but is it a very, very well-known brand? Yes. Will it be successful? Probably. But does that equalize?

Yeah, but you associate when you hear McDonald's, you got something that hits you. It may be that. It may be how you used to love the fries. Childhood memory, like emotion. Right, stopping on trips and the coach go get the bags full of quarter pounders. You got something that you think about when you think about McDonald's. And that's my thing is that if you're really talking about having a brand, you're giving people something that they think about this. So if you're Steph Curry, you're so excellent. Your brand is, I am excellent.

right and when you think about him you think about excellence if you're not at that level you're probably gonna need to give somebody something you might get some money because you're like a ball player but i don't think that's the same thing as having an a brand if you if you don't mean something it ain't to me it's not a brand that's a good point because i think the better you are at whatever you do the less you have to worry about branding like i disagree what

Our best players are not our most popular players. No, but I mean, okay, so let's just take, like, I'm not going to use WBA players for the allowance of that, but let's just say LeBron James. Like, if we, if I go to a company and say, hey, I have LeBron James here, NBA 2K, what you want to do? I don't.

I don't have to sell them on the concept, the idea. They're going to pitch me on 100 ideas they have with LeBron. Now let's say I take your favorite WNBA player then and say, hey, I have this person right here. How are we going to figure out how to? So I'm doing the levels of women, but also when you're great.

People will figure out how to work with you. When you're branding and really having to get creative, sometimes it's because you're having to try to get attention. Like branding stunts, marketing stunts are because you're trying to capture attention. If you're already a superstar, you don't have to do any stunts. Your branding might be like, I just saw the Joker put out his shoes and it's a Joker symbol type thing. And it's like...

I get it. He's the Joker. It's like, I don't need nothing else. Like, okay, that's the Joker's branding. I don't know anything else about his branding. And it's with Nike. I saw the whole rollout, but I don't need to know anything else. He's the Joker. Do you think celebrities can dilute their brands though? If it's not necessarily authentic and they're just grabbing like Shaq and Snoop do everything.

And it's like literally everything. I don't know what their brand. I know they're famous. I wouldn't use those two. Their brands are the same. I mean, I hear you saying it, but I wouldn't use those two. Like, I agree with you. They do everything and a lot of things, but like, it's worked. Snoop Dogg was the face of the Olympics. It's worked. And I did just see Shaq in my Houston mall. It's worked. On a campaign. Not to cut you off, but when you said the biggest marketing person, I forget how you phrased it, but you said Dion. The first thing that came to my head was Snoop.

Like, think about Snoop. Snoop created Dogfather. It's a lot going on, right? And now he's the face of the Olympics. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, that's... My only thing there was, like, he coaches youth football. That's the only, like, thing I have with sports. Like, I'm like, okay. Like, think about this. Think about this. Think about the movie Snoop did that was just, like, I couldn't show it to my kids because of the language, but then he's, like, Martha Stewart's best friend. It makes no sense. It makes no sense. What's the brand? The...

The moral of the story is everybody loves the G-Funk. That is what it fundamentally comes down to is everybody loves the G-Funk. No matter how deep in the country you went in 1994, everybody loved the G-Funk. Did you see the commercial with Snoop and Warren G selling fire pits? And Snoop was basically telling the consumer, the only reason why I'm on here is because I'm Snoop. He's basically telling you, why am I selling fire pits? I'm Snoop. Why are you going to buy them?

But also their first campaign was Snoop announcing that he's no longer smoking. I thought that's how they, I thought that's how they launched that by the way, by his brand. So speaking of Snoop's branding, there is one thing we do all know about Snoop. That's correct. What, like there's one thing that we all know about Snoop doggy dog.

he has made that a brand within itself too, because that's why they got him. The whole announcement, it went viral. It was, you know, all the clicks, all the things just by him saying, Hey guys, I'm stopping smoking. I'm going smokeless. I think that's what that, um,

So that's a brand, though. But Shaq's brand is different. You notice Shaq couldn't sell shoes. Big men do not sell shoes. So he had the big Reebok deal or whatever. He had a hard time with that. Stuff that requires you to be cool like that doesn't so much work. Shaq sells stuff that...

It ain't designer. Regular people need. Yeah, the general. His shoes are like... He's got a giant couch now at Rooms to Go. Yeah, yeah. It's like... Big man couch. He is selling stuff to... It's hard to think of the right ways to put it without being rude. You know what I mean? But he is selling his stuff to regular people. And that is what is so interesting about him is that...

For him, it doesn't really dilute the brand. He is telling people who might have to deal with some shady people from time to time to get some business done, no, it's okay, they cool. Because the general...

That does not sound like a trustworthy brand. I'm assuming that if Shaq says it's cool, it's cool, but I would not want to get my insurance from the general. Part of the magic about Shaq though. And Snoop, I think is that what we're talking about, they're approachable to so many different people. You don't, you're not just basketball fans that are, but they're, they're excited about Shaq and what he's doing, that there's something to be said for, I think in, in our branding is, is,

the demographics, the target audiences, and just, you know,

different groups of people and different types of fans that relate to you. There's an ultimate brander now, and I would say Kai. I don't know if anybody heard his Mafia-thon. That touched athletes. That touched entertainers. That touched singers. I think that the new age influencer is kind of doing what kind of that thing is where they're crossing whole platforms, different countries, and

Direct to consumer, though, I think is that thing that you're talking about where there's no better branding than when you can get direct to your consumer. I think that's where artists are trying to go. Athletes with the podcast. I think that like now the new age, kind of what you're talking about to hope.

You can talk straight to your consumer now. You can tell them, hey, my brand is blank. Like, I'm comfort. I like to be comfort all the time. So that's what I'm going to be like. You can tell them and then almost build that brand before you'd have to have like an interview person come to you, ask the right questions, and then trust that they write exactly what you really are. Because they might even took your answers, mix it with a little bit of their bias. And it's like, that's not that's not really my brand. Like, you might.

You might have showed up also in a way that you didn't recognize and you did it to yourself. Is this true? Okay. Just throwing it out there. It's crazy to me too because I think part of what makes athletes and people likable, approachable, I think is obviously access. And you were talking about that earlier. I feel the same way you do. I'm a very private person by nature and I just don't want to share a lot of my private life more than I need to. But I wonder in the sports arena now,

Jesse, you did The Bachelor. That's true. I was going to let him live, Justin. That don't sound private. We'll be right back. Elise, we've seen how industries can change in the blink of an eye. It's true, Josh. One minute, you're the top video rental store in the world. And the next, nobody even knows what a video rental store is.

Some enterprises can't handle change. Others are built for it. On Built for Change, we talk to the business leaders who've embraced reinvention to thrive in turbulent times and come out on top. So what can you learn from three inventors today? Check out Built for Change, a podcast from Accenture, wherever you get your podcasts.

I gave my brother a New York Times subscription. She sent me a year-long subscription so I have access to all the games. We'll do Wordle, Mini, Spelling Bee. It has given us a personal connection. We exchange articles. And so having read the same article, we can discuss it. The coverage, the options, it's not just news. Such a diversified gift.

I was really excited to give him a New York Times cooking subscription so that we could share recipes. And we even just shared a recipe the other day. The New York Times contributes to our quality time together. You have all of that information at your fingertips. It enriches our relationship, broadening our horizons. It was such a cool and thoughtful gift. We're reading the same stuff. We're making the same food. We're on the same page.

Connect even more with someone you care about. Learn more about giving a New York Times subscription as a gift at NYTimes.com slash gift. Get a special rate if you act before December 26th. Do you think like it's going to become more normal in sports?

to allow like Antonio Brown to be on his phone during Mike Tomlin's like post-game winning speech. Like when we played, if you, I don't think we even had like phones like that, but if like we would have gotten fined so quick. You might not have had a job. It is wildly unhealthy. Right. But I think we are starting to see some measure of generational compromise to move the work around. The fact that, Hey, if they're all like this,

It's kind of hard to change them, right? And so maybe to a degree it's going to happen, but that's not a win for anybody.

That is the best way to put it. Because you know where it's going to go now. It's not just going to be locker room postgame. It's going to be you get subbed out of a game and you're on the sidelines and you go, hey, guys, I just finished a six-point run. I just hit a three. That was crazy. We're still down. We've got about 10 left. We've got to go out and play defense. Okay. And it's like check back in. Imagine, like, got a penalty kick coming up. We've got to stop. This thing's going to golden goal. Like, what?

It's going that way now. And the access and what athletes are wanting and obviously up management, all that kind of stuff, they're not going to want it to happen. But I just, the boundaries are always changing. Like, it's just, the landscape is changing so quickly. Well, I do also think the only reason why some of these things are changing is because the powers that be, not, you know, obviously it's 32 owners. Not all of them are going to have those views as they become younger, as different, like,

Cuban coming into the NBA really put a ripple into how ownership think about their relationships with players, right?

You're an owner, right? You probably look at that list of owners and you're completely different from a viewpoint, from how you think about where this league should go, et cetera, et cetera. Over the course of a couple more years, there are going to be more people that have more of your thought process than the older guard. So I think that might lead itself to exactly what you're saying as far as like they'll be more lenient to allow some of these things. Because think about it, right? At some point, right? Yeah.

These owners are very old. There's going to be a changing of the guard in some regard. It ain't going to happen overnight. But as you mentioned, I do think there's going to be a time where...

How we interacted with media, how we played the game, and what was access and non-access will be completely different. And again, I don't think it's going to happen in a term where it's going to be like, okay, we switched the lights over and it's there. I just feel like it's going to casually happen over time. And then we're going to look back at this conversation 10 years back and be like, yeah, it actually happened. But I don't think it's going to happen in such a pace in which it's going to feel like it was pressed upon us.

That's funny because I don't like social media. Like, listening to you guys, this whole, like... I'm so sour on it, too. Like, I don't... I personally don't like social media. Like, it's not... I know, like, it's a brand now. It's something that, you know, you have all these brand deals coming in and you have to post on social media. You have to go to Instagram. You have to add brand partnership. You have all these rules. Like, one, can I just post the thing if I have to post it? Like, there's so many things that go into play. But at the same time, just as an athlete and as we're growing...

It's something that I feel like more and more, like you were saying, more and more time of where people don't get to see the real you. And it's getting pushed and pushed and pushed because it's like you are doing these things on social media and then you see them in person. It's like.

Well, why are you putting on a face on social media when in reality you're totally opposite? But then you try to be your normal self. You're getting looked at and it's like, well, what happened to you? What's going on? So social media was never something I like. What I put on social media, that's truly me. What you see on the post that I post or I'm doing flips and all that, that's something that you're going to see in person. But that's also when it comes to what I'm getting...

coming in as you know whether it's money whether it's a sponsorship I look at those before I accept I look at it as if it you know they are in my branding of who I am as a person because I'm not going to go and go be like okay I'm going to go um be with some drink company and I don't I don't

Never seen this before. That's not me. I've never seen them in the store. I've never seen them at a Target or a Rosser. But, you know, they came to me because I got a $1.5 million contract with them. That's another thing that I feel like a lot of athletes do is they just want the end result of it besides having something come towards them authentic to who they are. So with social media, I'm always just like, look,

I don't like it, but I'm learning a lot hearing you guys because it makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense of why my generation is so inclined with what it, you know, how can I be this person? But in reality, you know, I'm on social media being this person, but then I have like this money in behind me and all this stuff. And it's like you're overwhelmed and it gets exhausting and you have so many things that come into play and you're just you're stuck.

And I think that's how a lot of like my generation athletes are feeling and they don't know what to do. And they try to fit themselves into certain areas and they try to do this and do that because they're not educating themselves or finding their community or, you know, like doing all those things when it comes to them just focusing on social media. I've never seen so many of my like old teammates be on Snapchat, post so many Snapchat stories.

Snapchat, you apparently get paid for every story you put on. Oh, snap. Snap. Wow. No, I'm being so serious. Like Snapchat, I kid you not. I'm like, you know, Snapchat was so cool when we were younger. You know, you get the dog filter, all this stuff. And then all of a sudden I'm like, yo, why am I seeing your whole day in your life? Like, hey, guys, here I am going to this store, eating this food. And I like looked and I was like.

Like I asked somebody, I was like, so are you guys getting like paid for this? And they're like, yeah, so this is what you do. And I was like, makes sense. So now it's like came into this is how I live my life through social media.

instead of trying to just be you know hey guys I'm here this is me in person it's more like okay yeah I'm at this you know basketball game or I'm over here on this train or you know it's just that's why I don't like it it's just not giving what it needs to give also I always think about when I see those videos you see them like walking down the aisles like how much time does it take to set your tripod up and then like walk towards the camera and then run back and turn it off like how much of your life are you wasting recording your day in the life like it gets

it like makes no like the airport one gets me like how are you setting your phone up to get your ticket to somehow make it seem like you put your bag on the way or when I know in reality probably didn't do that you had your friend do it then somehow record yourself with your phone sitting in the chair on the plane like there's there's so many tools now that I'm just like it doesn't make sense and it takes too it's too much time

I mean, social media is a wild, wild world. Like, I feel like every day there's a new app that's trying to erupt and say, come join us here. We'll, you know, throw this amount of money at you. And but at the end of the day, though, too, it's not going anywhere.

So how do we leverage it as the tool that it is and still engaging? Because I know Fee, you run your social, as I'm sure a lot of us do here, but you run your social and you take great pride in that. And you don't partner with just anyone. You want to partner with brands that you truly believe in. How do you make sure that you can still be Fee and still engage with people? You know, they take the time to comment on your posts. You want to take the time to comment back. How do you do that, but then also protect your peace?

Um, I think it's hard. I think like it's really easy to get wrapped up in it. And I'm not naturally like a social media person either. For me, it is really exhausting as well. But you have like you're you understand that you have to be a brand presence to make money. And I feel like I, too, have just kind of learned that. So I try to it's like a conscious effort for me every time I have to post like, oh, I haven't posted in a while. Let me try to find some pictures or you take a picture of me so I can post this on social media. Yeah.

Like for me, it's embarrassing. Like I don't like taking pictures. That process is just like really exhausting for me. So I think it's just like a constant thing that I have to think about. But yeah,

To that point, like when I partner with brands, I want to make sure it's worth it because I don't like doing it. But I know it's like a necessary thing that you have to do. I want to make sure that I'm like supporting people who back what I believe in, who are things that I actually use, who like Opal is something that I'm really passionate about. They give free birth or not free. They give over the counter birth control, especially in states where like things are happening politically that you don't know what's going to happen. So like women's health is something I'm passionate about.

So partnering with things that, again, are really authentic to you, I think just makes it a lot easier to kind of do things. We all have to do things we don't want to do, like for your job, whatever it is, even if you love your job. I don't really want to be in the gym every single day, but I want to be a good athlete. So you have to do things that you don't want to do. And so for me, that's kind of how I think about it. If I'm going to do this, it has to be worth it. So I want to partner with people who are aligned with what things I like and what I support.

Absolutely. And I think that social media too has shifted, especially with athletes, but really with any, you know, fields is the aspirational versus inspirational. Before we would, you know, go to the store and buy a huge poster of Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, and put it on the wall or like get the magazine, rip it out, put it on the wall. And we didn't know what they did before or after they took those photos in. Nowadays, you're getting behind the scenes.

And so when that, you know, then that goes on the front cover of something you're like, oh, well, I felt like I was there. Like I saw he ate like a cheeseburger right before he went on and filmed that. Like I saw that. So it's so interesting because we do need to be able to peel back the layers because no longer do we look at someone and say, I want to be you. It's like, no, I see you crushing it. How do I do what I need to do to crush it in my own lane?

So how do y'all inspire on your social versus us to have people aspire to you? I think just being really honest, like about how much work it takes to get there. Like I still get questions every time. Like, oh, you had a daughter. She's almost three now. Like, oh, you had a daughter. How did you come back? I'm like, it was hard. It took a lot of hard work. Like that was the hardest thing I've ever done. And so I think just showing people that,

If you want to be good at anything, it doesn't have to be sports. It takes work and sacrifice. And I think that's what like aspire people see. I want that. I'm never going to get it. Like, how can they do that? And I can't. They worked really hard. Like I sacrifice a lot of time away from my family growing up, like sleepovers, things you want to do with your friends. Like this is a lifelong sacrifice that I've made to get here after having my daughter.

I thought I wasn't going to play the next season. Like I haven't talked about that a lot, but the toll it took on my body was so hard. The hardest I've ever worked that off season rehab. I was in there every single day just trying to get back to play the next season. So again, that's time away from my like brand new baby that I want to be with. That's time that I have to spend in New York when I don't live there normally. So we had to move there for like rehab.

So it takes a lot of sacrifice to do those things. So I just try to be really open with that so people don't like idolize you. You know what I mean? You want to inspire people, but you don't want them to idolize you. I want you to know that like I'm a real person just like you. I just...

I happen to have gotten the opportunity to be a professional athlete. Like, yes, I had the talent, but the people that got me there along the way also, if I didn't have those opportunities, I wouldn't be in the place that I am now. For example, like my brother is just as talented as I am, but he didn't have the same opportunities that I did to play football in our small town. I happen to have opportunities to play basketball in our small town.

So it's really about that. So I try to be, again, just really open with like the road that it takes to get there to you only see the success, but you didn't see all the stuff that takes to get there. I think a big thing too is connecting, I think with the fans on social as well. I think it's, it sometimes goes beyond just posting something and then, you know, you

you know, liking a comment. I think sometimes, and again, that this takes time to do, but when you're interacting with comments that, that fans or followers have left, and I think, you know, when you, not saying you have to do this for every single post, but I think sometimes when you leave thoughtful, thoughtful comments or answers to questions that they ask about your recovery and doing that, what was it like, you know, in, in, in the world cup final, what was it like being at the Olympics cheering on, you know, all your teammates?

and you take those moments to engage, I think that's part of how people at home feel more connected and feel like it's real.

And they're getting to know you personally versus just what a lot of people are, like to your point, trying to put out there to paint this perfect image of what my life is instead of the realness. And it goes back to being vulnerable and admitting when things are hard. Everybody's a real human being that goes through struggles. So I think that there are tools within social media that I think help inspire based on our realness and our interaction. Yeah.

And I think also just understanding you can separate your lives.

I learned that from not just, you know, having the greatest of all time in my sport be my best friend, but understanding that she went through a lot. I witnessed it. I've been through four Olympic cycles and only got to compete at two. But it definitely is something to understand that you can separate your life. You can separate the fact that you are human, that you do go through struggles and you do. You know, I went through a lot of family issues. I had a bunch of things that I was still trying to cope, but.

the only thing that you were seeing at that time was my sport and thinking that, oh, you know, the expectation and doing this and doing that, that's all you're seeing. But it does go back to the fact that just because I'm not showing you that side of me all the time doesn't mean that I'm not trying to inspire you to be the greatest that you need to be within your dream or within your path.

And, like, yes, there are tools. There are ways that you can kind of navigate what you're trying to put out into the world. But I think how I had to navigate who my audience was, I had to show them, this is me. I'm going to give you, you know...

Hey guys, I'm not doing too well. I'm going to separate myself from social media, give my time because this is something that I'm actually going through. I'm going through a lot. I hope you guys can understand and do people know majority of everybody's like, Oh, you know, she's lazy. She's this, that, all that stuff. But I think just still being able to show that side is also the biggest thing. But I also can say like separating the two, I learned that it's so hard because you're right. Like you're not obligated to share anything with anybody.

But it feels like we are, I think we feel pressure to do that. That's part of my job now. We're in the limelight 24-7. Like, we're constantly in the camera. I'm sorry, TMZ could be following us, like, anywhere. You know what I mean? But it is true. We're constantly in the limelight. So, yes, that obligation is, oh, this is what I'm doing, da-da-da. And it's like...

How a lot of celebrities now, you know, there have been things now all of a sudden, you know, for instance, the platform, the Shade Room. Shade Room knows everything. How do we know this? I don't know. But they know exactly everything. But it's because...

everybody nowadays talks about, okay, this is what happened. This is how it's going to play out. This is who I'm going to go, you know, fight if I have to, you know, like those types of things. And so it's definitely is, I feel like an obligation now to where you have to be like, this is, this is what's going to happen. Do you remember a time when like,

Angelina Jolie, you never saw her. But if she showed up in the Milan Film Festival, everybody had to be there on the red carpet because that was the only time you were going to see her. But I'm not convinced that you can't still pull that off now. Even if you're not LeBron or... I mean, so if I take this out of the sporting context, right, Faye? Beyonce still does it? I'd say the biggest star of 2024 is Kendrick Lamar. He don't give you nothing but music, right? Good point.

I feel bad when I hear people talk about feeling the obligation because it totally makes sense, right? It's a totally valid opinion. But I believe that there's so much stuff that people are flooded with on such a regular basis, hardly anybody's going to notice if you just don't do something for a little while. And even if they do notice...

I don't know. I don't know how much time people have. It sounds like they really care and they sounds like they're really invested, but I don't know how much energy people have to keep up as much. And so I think for a lot of people, there probably is an option to fall back a little more than it feels like in the moment of.

Right. That you can decide that there are going to be boundaries that you put in place and what you are going to do, what you're not going to do. I think people could probably get away with more of it because my question has truly been more and more. And I say this is somebody used to be a very active social media participant that isn't anymore is how much there is to gain anymore from that stuff. Right. Like it feels like it's the baseline level that they tell you that you have to do.

But I'm not sure. I think there are a lot of people who are really out here thriving who are not in those spaces and you just don't think about it. But somebody comes and tells you, hey, you got to do this because da-da-da. And it makes perfect sense why you would think. But I'm not sure exactly.

I think there was a time where you could really come up off a social media presence. Like, Jared McCain right now is really coming up because they only made one of those in the NBA, right? It stands out, and he's balling, but, like, he has become really big off of it. He's really good at it, right? And it's not just that he's just putting stuff up.

And so I would hope for the sake of the people involved that there will be a movement of people to figure out that you could probably fall back a little bit. Because if y'all get some solidarity amongst yourselves and say y'all going to stop being animals in the zoo, then there ain't going to be no zoo no more. You know? I think that's more. I think because you said a male athlete, I think as women it's different.

Because as women, if we disappear, right, we go off of social media or something like that, it's, oh, she, you know, they start giving these negative comments or the biggest thing is she's pregnant or this, that, and the other. So I think there's a difference when it comes to male and female when you have that platform because...

You never know. Especially if you posted something, hey, I'm with so-and-so, da-da-da, and then the next two days later, you're MIA, then there starts this whole line and this train of, well, what happened to her type deal. But if a male did that, like I'm not trying to be sexist or anything, but if a male did that, it would be like, oh, he's fine. He's great, right? It's like with anybody who gets divorced, oh, he's fine. But then the female is like, oh, you know, maybe she did this, you know? So I think that's where...

it's kind of hard when it does come to taking yourself away from social media as a female, because there's always going to be something the moment you get back on, those comments are going to flood and be like, oh, well, so what did you do? You know, that's why it's like just that difference. Yeah, I understand you. I ask this question sincerely. It's like,

How much of that, and I think this is just a society-wide question, is just how much of this do we actually have to indulge? Because in the end, it's dismissive to be like it's just a comment because I know it's not that simple, right? But at the same time, for all of us, it's kind of a question of

okay they're gonna be doing this they're the ones and zeros are gonna have this thing to say do we have to be bound by it and i imagine that has to be incredibly stressful just like like i say hearing people hearing it verbalized has been very interesting to me like the idea of feeling like you were obligated to give people these little kernels and god like to me i'm like no you're not but that's easy for me to say i think it's also too it's like

If you are going to use social media as a way to connect to fans and to sell things, you can't only pop out when you're like, hey guys, my C-Suite 21 collection's dropping and then I'm going to go MIA because I don't really want to tell you about none of my life. I feel like it's almost building. When you talked about connections, it's like,

Fans buy into the brand. Like fans will strictly purchase off of like, I'm buying this because I like her. I want her business to be successful. You take away those kernels of why they like you and who you are. Even how simple it is. Like almost every morning I write like, good morning, good people on Twitter. It's basic. But to your point, I respond to like 10 people every morning. I got regulars that say good morning every morning now. Like, you know what I mean? Like there's a community. It's a community of good morning.

where it's like, good morning, good people. What are we doing? Like, you know, like, and it's that little simple thing that I don't really have to do it. You're right. But it's also like,

There has to be a give and take. It's like, there's a lot of things I don't really want to do kind of to your point. It's like, there's a lot of things I don't want to do, but that little bit, how much is that going to, like, there is a gain, I think on doing just those little things. Or even if it is like, I don't like, I'm kind of agreeing. Like, I don't know if y'all seen the Netflix show black mirror, but it kind of makes fun of how far are we going to go with this social media stuff to where like your social media occurrence is your currency almost like it's how one of the episodes showed. And it's like,

I don't know to the point of how fast we're going to get there, but I am going to keep making deposits. Like I'm going to keep making deposits on social media and I'm going to keep on connecting with different people every day because we do have to use, it is an avenue. Like where else are you going to be doing business if you're not doing it on social media?

Like, where is those other platforms now to do business? Like, straight to consumer. Like, where can you go? It's also important to remember there were times, like, even my parents would say, do you know how lucky you are that you have direct-to-consumer? Like, if I had this platform, I could have sold anything. Like, my dad used to say all this while. I'm like, calm down. But it's true. But to our point and to Jordan, your point specifically, and to the point of exhaustion, hope, is we're in control of our social media. So we can change and evolve. And I'm actually really curious about Justin because...

No, I'm bringing you right in. Social media when you were playing wasn't really popping yet, was it?

You just called them old. Sorry. Damn it, Jesse. Okay. But wait, time out. I don't follow Goldman Sachs, but I'm sure their Instagram is not popping, right? Because it's not. Okay. The reason why I didn't want to get in this conversation is because it's going to sound like me patting myself on the back. No, let's pat. I heard everything you guys said, and I agree as far as the fact that social media is exhausting. There's this pressure of these continual kernels every time.

I just didn't subscribe to that. And I think one of the reasons why I don't feel those pressures is because, like you said, I work for Goldman Sachs. There's no $100 million client that I have to go see that's going to care about me posting on Twitter or Facebook or anything else.

And that's just, you know, that's just the nature of the beast as far as the transition that I made. So I didn't necessarily want to jump in this conversation because that was more of a singular thing. But like, I was going to ask the question around, like, do you guys think the pressure that you feel or the pressure that some people might feel in social media is predicated on the fact that the transition from your sport or the things you're interested in developing a paycheck is

is because it's in that media, it's in that business, it's in that branding, marketing sphere that you need social media for. Because for me, I don't feel those pressures because it doesn't impact my day-to-day. But I definitely understand what you're saying because I obviously used to be in that world a little bit more than I am now. I still have branding things that I do for previous, still existing opportunities that I had with brands.

branding companies or companies that I used to be branded by. So I, but again, I, it's hard for me to verbalize what I'm trying to say here because I mean, I listened to a podcast, Kevin, um, Rich Klein was talking about Kevin or teaching Kevin Durant about the fact that he didn't have to go say that on a commercial. Like all of us, you know, none of us are Kevin Durant and like, you don't have that power walking into that room to be able to do that. But I was thinking about that from the perspective of,

You don't have to say those things. Like, at the end of the day, what I feel like social media allows us to be is authentic. It allows us to customize the experience that we want to have with the interface. And I just grew up in a world where I don't really...

Again, I was about to say something like locker room term. I don't know if I can say it on this air. Try it. I just don't... I don't give a damn about anybody else's feelings towards how I live my life and how I choose to give you access to my life. Right? If I put something out there that's authentic to me and you don't like it, God bless you. I actually don't mind social media, by the way. Yeah, I don't mind it at all. I'm one

I really don't mind it because like I give them what I want to give them. Like I treat social media like, you know, like I might be MIA for a couple of days and I might be on Twitter all day for a couple of days. Like I'm live tweeting the game because I want to see, I'm watching the same thing we watching as a family. Like I'm like, what are we watching?

today? Like, are we like, you know, like, because as I'm watching the game, I know somebody's having the same thoughts I am. So I'm watching it with my family in the house and we all saying the same thing. So I go on Twitter and I'm like, boom, there you go. I knew everybody. I knew it. Like, you know, like, so it's like, it's almost like a

a sample subject to there where you can soundbite things off of, hey, what y'all think about this? Or what you think about that? I feel like social media, to your point, we control it. To a side note, I get hate messages every single day. It's the nature of how I opted out for social justice, what I stand for, kind of all those things. Every single day I get

like death, rape, all of that every single day. Like it's in my, it's in my mentions, but it's just like, I just scroll past those. I'm keeping moving. Like, you know what I mean? Like, and I know that everybody, I'm an athlete, so I have thick skin. So I'm not saying the people that struggle with that. I understand when they do struggle with that. Cause it's like, dang, right.

right now I post a happy birthday and they enter my birthday post. I'm like, take a day off. It's my birthday. Like, come on, man. But I know some people can't get past that, but I really, to your point, I don't care. Like if, if you're saying all this stuff, you're DMing me, they even find the links in my bio and they email it. It's like, I really, it says more about you. It's like, yeah, that's why I didn't want to actually engage. Cause I was, I was saying like, that's more of a Justin Tuck answer, not a broad answer. Right. But like, I agree with you 100%. Like,

Make it what you want it to be. I think the tools that we have at our disposal now in this space allows you to make the experience what you truly want to make the experience. And I might be wrong from a broad perspective, but I know it works for me. No, because it's hard, though. It's hard for people if you're already going through something and then to get online as somebody. Here goes somebody else. I understand the concept of like...

Life is already hard for everybody. I don't care who it is. And then you get online and there's people just constantly like they talk about your family. They talk about your appearance. So I understand that it's not easy to brush off. But I was saying like for me personally, I'm just not I'm just not rolling. Like I just have a different mindset. Like I'm like toxic positivity to a T. It's like I really don't have time for for that negativity. But it's interesting.

Renee and Justin, your perspective from where you guys both stand currently with your jobs versus two current athletes fee and Jordan, right? I think it's also really important to note, like there's time for evolution of your, of your Instagram. I say Instagram, cause I feel like that's like the main one still as of right now, but you can go, you can have a period where you're off it for a couple months and then you can, you know, get back on and be like, I'm going to go hard on this or like, okay, I want to start building my brand partnership. So I know I need to start posting. And so I can show the

these brands that are going to ask me for all my insights, how many people are liking, what's your demographic, all of that. But it's also about knowing your audience. And so from someone who, let's see if I can do it, who played on the field, who analyzes players on the field, who hosts people playing the field.

You're welcome. I see what you did there. You see what I did there? I see what you did there. And with the Food Network, you're on so many different platforms. You have a wide array of people that tune into Jesse Palmer and are buying your clothes now. So how have you evolved?

You know, for me, it, it, again, it's the, the common, I think it's like the theme of this whole conversation for the last hour and 10 minutes now, but it's, it's just authenticity. It's just, I think whatever, whoever I am in all of the wearing all those different hats is just true to me. Football obviously is my wheelhouse. That's, that's my biggest passion in the world as a player. Now as someone that analyzes it and, and calls games, but,

That's my dojo. Like that's, that's where I feel the most comfortable on shows like the bachelor or on food network. Like I'm just passionate about people and I just like being around people and, and learning about them and being around them. But I, I, I'm so conscious all the time about really being true to myself, saying things I would say, reacting in ways that,

that I think I should react, not what I think people at home think I should react. Does that make sense? You know, and I, and I think, you know, to kind of connect it all together, you know, I think one of my biggest fears is just being, um, is not being authentic as being inauthentic because I think people can tell, um, on, on social media. I think they can tell sometimes when people know a phone. Yeah. Yeah.

They ain't been one phony that people ain't figured out eventually. I believe it. Especially for someone who's had...

the longevity that you had in these... Short term, you can get away with that. Yeah, short term, you can get away with it. Long term. You've been doing this for a long time. And maybe... I thank you, but maybe that's part of why. Because people are like, he's consistent. This is just who he is. And different types of television. It's just... I really am the same... I hope I'm the same person all throughout as I am in social media, as I'm at home with my wife and my daughter. It's just...

That, to me, has been the most important things. And with branding and partnerships in business, it's about that, too. It's the fundamental thing of a brand is what you describe is the consistency of it, right? Like, I see this name a half a world away from my house. I know what this means. Right. Yeah. And just like you said, you know, products that you use or things that you believe in and aligning yourself, I just don't think you can ever go wrong.

If you do that, and I think there are times on social media where if we do pull back or you are just being authentic, I think the right brand sometimes find us.

You know, instead of us, you know, always feeling I got to push this. I got to push that because I want this dealership and this sponsorship and this endorsement. You know, I think sometimes just being true to yourself, I think sometimes attracts the right people to you that it's all very organic that way. I think that's that's really, really important.

That's huge. And so we've talked quite a bit about our past. Let's move more towards like the present and the future, right? NIL, everyone's favorite thing, name, image, and likeness. What do we love about it? What do we hate about it? I love that players can get paid. Definitely love that. And that's long overdue. I hate that college football has now become free agency.

And you're essentially now... I was going to say, is it even free agency, though? Because if I sign a player for four years, I don't have to re-recruit that player every four years. But don't forget the other part. Sometimes they ain't got the money. It is just a handshake deals on paper, right? Like, maybe they got the money.

You know what I'm talking about, Jesse. Sometimes you got the money. Sometimes you don't got the money. Sometimes you tell a dude you're going to pay him $10 million. Then you got to go to another school because y'all say we ain't got the money. It's no rules. But here's also to add to that. Like, I feel bad for the coaches now, to be honest with you. And that's never been the case in my life. Not one time in my life. But think about this, right? All right. I went to Notre Dame. Coach Freeman. I'll just use him as an example.

If you think about it, you have to recruit a kid whenever you start recruiting. Let's say you start recruiting at 16. You got to recruit him from 16 until he commits when

When he commits, typically you're done recruiting, right? Not anymore because he can commit to you and if he feels like, oh, you didn't show him the love until he got there, he can decommit, go somewhere else, blah, blah, blah. So you got to recruit this kid from 16 until he gets to your campus. Oh, it don't stop there. You got to recruit him for however long he stays at your campus. Well, guess what? Because of the portal, if he feels as though you haven't continued to show him love, he can just willingly just walk away. Wait a minute.

Not only do you have to recruit that kid from whenever you started recruiting him until he graduates or goes to the league or whatever his end product is in your school, you got to recruit every other school. Because if he leaves, you got to be like Deion and be like, hey, we're going into Port to get this other kid from San Jose State or wherever it be. So I just don't understand how coaches even can coach anymore because they're constantly recruiting. They're recruiting 24-7. They're recruiting the kids that are on their campus. They're recruiting the kids that are in high school. They're recruiting kids on other campuses. And heaven forbid you have a kid blow up.

And have a big year, especially for a smaller school. Well, I can't. I mean, like Alabama and Ohio State, they're on the phone with him now. Dude. Yesterday. I can't give you any specifics.

But I just had this conversation with a player and his family and a university, and he's about to make a lot more money than what he was making because he had a phenomenal year. And you just said the name. Alabama, some other schools were calling him and his mom and his dad, and their price went up, so our price had to go up. I mean, that's crazy. There's a balance. And the one thing I never liked as a player was

I'm going to commit to this head coach and I'm committing four or five years of my life to go live in this city and play my career. That coach can bounce whatever he wants. That's what made all this possible was that they had to get rid of the one-year transfer rule, which was necessary. That's what slowed everything down was that you had to sit out for a year. But the coaches kept dipping for money and it became morally impossible. Right.

to justify that. And so now it's the wild, wild West, but that's like, that's football basketball. Like I'm curious. I don't know as much myself about how that's affected women's sports at this point, because the money isn't quite as big. And I think the money becomes a lot more important there because we're talking about a lot of people on the men's side who can go get some money later in a way that's not guaranteed. If you're playing women's sports, like now there's the idea that you can get some real bread in this moment where for so many women, they are most marketable as college players.

That's a huge game change. Unfortunately, it is chaos because there's no plan on how to do this because they were so afraid of paying players that they kicked it down. They kicked that can down the road, down the road, down the road. Congress will save us everything else. And then they looked up and nobody has any idea how to do it. I mean, I know a few schools. I'm not going to put names out there that have all of a sudden just been on the bars of all bars, not just in my sport, but in other sports.

But I feel like I never cared about money just in general. For me, going pro was not anything that I... Before they changed the rule, I was like, you know what? I'm about to go to college. I verbally committed in eighth grade. Why? Why did I do that? It was a dream school of mine. I wanted to go to... Because you're talented. They don't recruit people in eighth grade. Now they don't. They can't. It's a rule. But before the rules changed, you were allowed to recruit...

Whenever, right? So in eighth grade, I verbally committed. So like you were saying, you have to, you know, recruit, recruit, recruit until they sign. So I'd signed yada, yada, yada. But one thing that I had told myself was no matter what I was doing with my sport, with my life, I was going to go to college because I recruited and recruited myself, my life to a school that I wanted to compete for. Now that the NIL changed,

It was like, oh, okay, I get a double whammy. I get to be able to go pro and also be the quote-unquote face of my school, which I don't think there's truly like a face of a school because there's so many talented athletes that go in and out of that school that have been the faces of the school. It just doesn't make sense. But quote-unquote get to be the face of my school now. But when it comes to...

certain things, now I feel like it's just an outlet. I feel like it's just something that, oh, you want money for this? Here, I'll take it because you're the face of the school. Or you want, you know, it's, I feel like it's no longer like a hardworking era of things. I feel like it's kind of just been given. As gymnasts, it may be different for women's basketball. I don't know how that works. But as gymnasts, I feel like now it's like, you're working, but you're not.

It's just different, like the dynamic and the pressure. You can now be like, okay, I'm going to do one year here. This is what I did. I did one year, then I went and did pro. Then I came back and did another year. And I feel like that's just, you know, it's crazy. But I had a dream of mine since I have the ability. But it's like, I feel like now...

There's just like a different outlet when it does come to the gymnastics side of things that I feel like I feel. I don't know how it is for basketball, but that's just kind of. I kind of feel like I also think NIL is great and like what I would have done with that money, not the 1500 stipend a semester that we got. Like that would have been awesome.

But also, like, there has to be rules because I feel like it's taking the purity of the sport away. Bingo. Yeah. And I'm so surprised to hear that from somebody like you. But I do want to ask, what are the team dynamics like for, you know, players that do have NIL deals and then the players who don't?

For me, and I talk with my husband about this all the time, he was a former Husky, Division I football player, played in the NFL. Husky like a Yukon Husky? The only Husky that matters. Washington. West Coast. The real dog. The real dog. It's escalated quickly. We feel pretty, like dinosaurs, you know, prehistoric in our bodies.

thought process. And it's not dissimilar to how social media came about and kind of broke up our team dynamics on the national team, players being distracted and caring too much about that and not enough about what was going on on the bus, on the way to a game or whatever. And now you have this NIL and these college athletes are very young. I mean, we're not in our 20s, 30s. We're

Very young and impressionable. And you want to build up that team culture in college. That's what sets the tone for everything. You want that college experience, that team experience, a positive experience. And then you bring in, you know, we used to all have our Nike cleats given to us, you know, and now somebody gets a particular deal and they're wearing the baller cleats while everybody else is in their Reeboks.

And it just changes things. And so my question to you guys is, do you feel that? Oh, 100%. 100%. Not within my, because I, as UCLA, like I have not done that. Because how I see it is very much we're as a team and this is what we're doing. I went to my campus in a way of showing that

Just because I'm a two-time Olympian doesn't mean I'm still a college. Like that does not mean anything. I'm still a college student. I'm going to school. I'm doing everything that you're doing. So don't like disclude me for anything that, you know, get, thank you. I appreciate it. You know, you see me on my scooter. Woohoo. Like, hi, nice to meet you. Like, but I don't do that with my team personally. Now, have I seen it with other teams? A hundred percent. Now, do I think that is, I feel bad for everybody else because

Because it's like, if you're going to do that, why can't you give it to your whole team so they feel included type deal? That's how I see it. Personally, because I, NIL, I wish it was something that was sooner. I feel like all pro athletes from 2016 or even before that, like literally, I felt like NIL should have just been a thing in general. Because there were so many amazing athletes that did go to amazing schools and lifted up that school in a lot of ways. Yeah.

That's how I see NIL, but I have seen it through social media that that has happened. When NIL first happened, I was in this mode of like you just said, Jesse, man, a million dollars. But when I think about it, right? You'd have been at the library. You'd have been the linebacker. I would have, yeah. I'd have paid more money to get better tutors. The linebacker. That's so funny. It's very similar to...

How I think about Reggie White and Lawrence Taylor and all these guys who came before me in the football side, they made the product that is the NFL better when they were there so that guys like myself made more money than they made. Now you got guys in the league now, you know, Dexter Lawrence, Brian Burns on the Giants now making more money than I made when I was there.

So it's like, I don't get in this world of like, man, what if? Because at the end of the day, I'm sure there was Hall of Fame players that built the NFL way before I even picked up a pigskin. And I was living off of their backs, vice versa now. So when I think about this NIL money, I honestly don't think we're giving these kids enough credit.

Because they've grown up like this. I wouldn't have had the ability. It would have been so brand new to me. I don't think I would have been able to handle it. I think they're going to be okay handling it. There's still going to be some, obviously, some things that... You think it's going to change the nature of it, though? It's definitely going to change the nature. But, again, everything else around these kids are changing, too. How we got recruited and how we thought about what schools to go to and why we went to them, that no longer exists.

So I think it's still in line in a lot of ways with what their day-to-day is anyway. Like the loyalty around, hey, I love this coach. I went to the University of Notre Dame thinking I was going to be there for four years. I don't think none of these kids think like that. Like if it happens, genuinely happens, then they would be like, okay, cool. But I don't think any of them sign that letter of intent thinking that like, hey –

I'm occupying this one scholarship, this one school for four years. No, I think they're going in and saying, this is the place I want to be now. And if something changes...

Where we are, where we are. How do you think that's going to affect, like, in the future, boosters? Because, you know, that diehard college fandom that you have? Like, how is that going to affect fans in the future? They just keep ponying the boosters as a different animal, man. No, I was going to say, that's actually going to help. Do you think in the future? Like, there's no loyalty to your school. Let's get to the finances, right? Let's get to the world which I really, really live in. I know every million and above check that goes into Notre Dame, those checks have increased.

I know how the Big 12 thinks about boosters and every school in the Big 12 thinks about boosters. All that stuff has increased because now they are actually, they're really, really owning a piece of those products, those football, in most cases, the football basketball teams. And it's almost like being able to put your name on their jerseys.

because they could go tell their friends at the country club, hey, I helped buy that kid. This is their time to shine. I guarantee you they will not feel that at all. Now they don't have to do it with cash. They can do it with checks. And they can be very direct with where that money goes. This is very much so like, oh, now I can buy my weed at the dispensary with the

debit card. That makes my life a whole lot easier. I might even pay a little bit of extra money. I ain't got to go run and get this cash and meet you at the corner no more. I can go right in the store. This is their time. Like SMU making that move to the ACC and saying we don't need the revenues from the conference because the boosters will pony it up. This is the day they have been waiting on that they could trick all this money off on all these dudes and tell everybody around them that they are personally, imagine being saying I am responsible for

For my school, winning the first national championship in 50 years. You know what I mean? Ferraris and Lambos was outside of Notre Dame Stadium when they was in the NIS. Think about that. Notre Dame. In the snow, they're making uninformed decisions, these kids, obviously. They need better advice. It's snowing there now. Yeah. Insuring an 18-year-old to drive a Lamborghini, by the way, is setting money on fire. But to me, what is...

The thing you were talking about before, about going to school. It's not a four-year decision, it's a 40-year decision. Yeah, that's game, but it's also true. If you're doing it right, that's the best play.

I'm glad the cats are able to get the money and the ladies able to get the money. But I do worry about that part. Like that is not something you should make a decision on college based on money. You shouldn't go somewhere you can't afford. Right. So I don't want to act like money is completely irrelevant. But man, it's a long play. Like that's every time I see these guys bounce from school to school. I know I stay wherever you are for years and live on scholarship for life. You'll always be able to come back. You'll always be able to get a job. You'll always be able to do all these things. If these things don't go the way you think they're going to go down the line.

You're getting upfront payment right now. But if you transfer to three schools, they don't give a damn about you and none of them. I actually think it's going to help the leagues better and more. You're going to get a more matured kid coming. I actually think I don't even know what the number is as far as how long a kid stays in school before he decides to defer for the leagues. But I guarantee that number is going to go up.

Because if I was making a million dollars a year, why am I going to the NFL? No, the draft is about to be a different animal. These cats are sticking around. If I could make, I mean, some of these kids are making two, three, four, five million dollars to stay on campus. Like, I just saw Mr. Sanders buy his old lineman a Maybach. Okay. I mean, really? Really?

Okay. I'm never leaving. I'm devastated right now. We have to put a pin in the NIL conversation just because I would be remiss if we did not talk about one last thing about the future, right? We got to talk about the fact that the two lovely people next to me, Jesse Palmer and Ray Montgomery, just launched clothing brands relatively recently. We got Jay Palmer. Yep. And we got C-Suite 21 from Athlete to C-Suite.

That sounds better than J. Palmer. Okay, you know what? That's a nice ring to it, right? And Jordan, you just announced that you wrote a book named I'm That Girl. Okay! Period. Period. Coming out when? It comes out in March of 2025. And how did you come up with the name? So, I'm That Girl, basically. I'm pretty sure everybody knows the song from Beyonce's album. I don't use it in a cocky way, though. I realized throughout my whole entire... Ever since I was seven...

my time frame of doing gymnastics, I've conquered so many things. So I use it as an affirmation. And the affirmation I get to tell myself every day is, you know what? You are that girl. You get to wake up. You get to do things. You get to inspire the younger generation. And basically what this book is about is just the life story of who I am as a person, but also, you know, what just happened and everything, you know, leading up to who I became, being a two-time Olympian and all that stuff. So it's kind of just like a nice little memoir of who I am and

honestly, just like the love and resilience that I've been able to put out into the world and also accept myself. That is so beautiful. I cannot wait to read it. Oh my gosh. And then last but not least fee, talk to us about being the co-founder of unrivaled. And I don't know if the world knows how huge and transformational this is. So tell us what's, what's coming out in January. Yes. First game, January 17th in Miami. Um, yeah, it's a three on three league. Our premise was just like the best women's basketball players in the world playing against each other every night. Um,

Yeah, we're super excited. We have the highest average team salary in women's sports. All of our players have equity in the league. And it's just going to be a really great experience, a really deep dive into the athletes, like who they are, building their brands, which we talked about ad nauseum today about how important that is. And yeah, it's just going to be a great product for people to watch and then also for us to play. I think it's going to be really entertaining.

Well, speaking of entertaining, I was highly entertained this entire time. And I'm very, I can't believe how quickly 90 minutes comes and goes. I know. But hopefully this is a springboard for future conversations and more brand building. And I just want to say thank you again for your time. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. The hostess with the wallet. Yes. Period.

Special thanks to Sam Dolnick, Nita Lassam, Ravi Mattu, Beth Weinstein, Kate Carrington, and Melissa Tripoli.

Thanks for listening. Talk to you next time.