Julia Gets Wise with Billie Jean King
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I don't exactly know. I became a sports fan because I was not an athlete when I was Young. I was born in new york, and early on I learned to ride a tricycle, and I was good at that track.

I wrote IT in the hallway of our building. How much fun is an apartment on a try call like, you know, just imagine being on a race track up and down and up and down. Although as I say this, i'm now remembering the shining.

And of course, not so fun in that movie, but in reality is, in fact, a lot of fun. But I lived in the city, and so I never learned to ride a bike until I was like, I don't know, eight. And everybody was riding bikes by then, you by eight.

But I kind of a miss that window, and I was so embarrassed because I had to have training whiles. I was always unsure of myself on a bike. And I still am really, I don't really love riding bikes.

They scare me. And bikes were the gateway of sports in elementary school. And so I ve just kind of fucked and I just didn't play sports. I went to in all girl school and the sports that were available to us were filled hockey, basketball, tennis and dyna CS. Um I did not excel at any of these things at a girl school.

You know the sports girls were popular, and I think that's one of the great things about in all, girl school women are the very top of the sports world. You cheer for girls. And all my best friends were athletic, so I IT in on that.

So I tried gymnastics. I even competed in an event. I think this was in thirty six grade or something.

I was a big meat. Is that what that would be? A gymnasts s meat? I don't know. Anyway, I had used routine on the baLance ed beam that I practiced and practice.

So I got up on the beam, big smile and everything, probably pretending i'm ola corbit or whatever. And there is a crowd there. And at that moment I swear to lord jesus, the whole routine went out of my head completely.

I mean, just telling you this right now is making my palm. I could remember nothing. So I just started to make things up.

You know, in the movie version of this, I improvident routine, and, you know, everybody, applause. But in real life, I got the lowest score ever on a beam. IT was like, less than one out of tent, by the way.

That's my big sports memory. Oh, wait, in IT, here's another one. okay? So we had two gym teachers, mrs.

Navet, who everybody loved, and mrs. Moody, who is english. This is probably the best moment of my high school sports career.

We were in pe and IT was tennis day. And all the sudden I hear mrs. Moody, the english one.

SHE goes, cover your eyes. Girls, cover your eyes. And a bunch of boys were seeking.

Anybody remember seeing running around naked? IT was the thing back then. It's a federal fence now, of course.

But anyway, a bunch of boys were street king naked across the field by the tennis courts. I don't know who these boys were. This was in all girl schools.

So I suppose IT was further ground for teen ash middle streakers. So like, anyway, four boys go running by, and I did, just as mrs. Moody instructive, I covered my eyes, but I remember I was laughing so hard that, you know, I mean, it's not a great come from behind Victory.

It's not a championship game. This is the kinds sports memory that I have. And the funny thing is that I consider myself athletic now. I mean, sports and exercise are huge part of my life, and our family life is totally sporting. My kids are great athletes.

My husband, the sports, not always riding a bike or surf border, kite foiling or snowboarding or something and I work out literally every day and I love IT um and growing up, my dad used to bet on a lot of sports. He had a bookie and everything and he's throws fts about the mets and the new ork giants and the nicks and I paid no attention at all, except when he gets and the full of cash, which was great. That was always very exciting.

But then my kids started playing high level sports, and I started to see what I meant to them, and started to get to know the other kids and their personalities and the stories that came along with the me. And I became a pretty knowledgeable basketball fan, and I fell in love with college basketball and abcd abra. I'm a sports fan, you know, in our current time, when everything is fragile and unsteady and so complicated, where so many things seem like lose, lose proposition, here are sports which, despite the dubious character of some of the participants and the corruption of the leagues, and, you know, sports always come down to a definable contest.

There's a great line in that old walter hill b movie, cult film the driver, Bruce dern, who's always so good, love Bruce n. He plays this rough cop. And at point he says, you know what I do first thing every morning, read the sports page.

You know why? Best part of the newspaper. Winners, losers. How IT happened? Final score.

I love that the clarity of that god is that appealing. No bullshit. You can't editorialize a final score. Winners, losers, heroes, heartbreak, ealing, what's not to love? That's why i'm so glad that today we get to talk to one of the greatest of all champions. Do we drinking?

Hi, i'm Julia lui drive us and this is wiser than me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me.

Okay, let me set the stage here in nineteen sixty six, when today's guest first reach number one in the world's tennis. Women couldn't serve on juries in any of the fifty states. They couldn't get an undergraduate degree from almost any I ve.

The college, they couldn't run the boston marathon, they couldn't legally refuse sex with their husbands. Of course, there were some things they could do. They could get fired for being pregnant, they could be denied a credit card without a male cosigner, and they could play any sports they wanted, just none professionally except golf.

And that's in one thousand nine sixty six, not eighteen sixty six. Then a long came billie jean king, thirty nine grand slams, twenty wimbleton titles, a lifetime of battling for and winning women's right to equal pay, not just in tennis, but way, way beyond. SHE founded and let the women's tennis association and is the first female athlete ever to receive the presidential medal of freedom.

Not to mention over ninety million people worldwide watch the match. We now call the battle of the sexes. I mean, seriously, folks let that sink in.

Almost a quarter of americans tuned in to watch her beat bobbi rigs in one nine hundred and seventy three and three straight sets. Might I add she's a sports icon. She's an L G B, T, Q plus icon, a feminist icon.

And let's face IT, she's just basically iconic. It's no exaggeration to say that Billy jean king has changed the world. SHE is arguably the most important athlete of our time. I could not be more thrilled to talk to all woman who is so much wiser than me, the one and only Billy jean king.

Hi, hi, after that, i'm going to stop.

Don't stop. You gotta keep going. You ve got to keep going.

No, i'm not done you getting everything well. Now there's so old you would have to do and I said, i'm not done .

an energy so well.

So speaking of age.

are you comfortable? We say.

I love you. I never eighty. I just lady, last november number twenty second.

But how well do you feel?

I don't know. It's eighth to feel like every I always asked myself like when I was sixty, when I was fifty, I was forty, when I was thirty, when I was twenty like what am I supposed to feel? I don't know. I am what I am the number is there. But it's really how's my health I think.

right? Yeah.

you have your health and how you feel and how do you feel? How do I feel physically, emotionally, mentally? You know, I asked myself those questions. So I mean, I still do therapy every week. Psychotherapy.

psychotherapy and physical therapy. I don't need .

physical therapy. Well, a lot of my wife got me out during cover to hit, to hit tennis balls again. I had for twenty years, I had a lot of the Operations and shoulder out everything.

And I said, okay, let's try because I just love IT so much. I mean, I love hit the ball. So we do two, three times week. Now he was, you know, a long A I was no one in the world and doubles and he still plays a lot so she's she's Young ger, she's late sixty. So SHE is the all right to me. It's just amazing I meet people are playing and that we have a one hundred and under you've been category for people that are one hundred and hundred and IT is hilarious. I know what shop they use all time is a draw shock because you can't move .

and it's families but way of IT IT we're MIT who's the old?

I don't know the this one is, I don't. I have to find out. No, I don't.

You gotta a find out. I have got to be in there.

Ninety, right? Oh, no, no. 那你 那你 呢？

And I for sure. Hey, so what's your relationship with your body like now, Billy jean, I mean, has IT changed as you've gotten older? Is your brain moving faster than your body?

How is brain finally? Is fast body now? But my brain, I think i've always been in tone with my body, my brother, my, I just saw everybody knows if a lot of people do know this, like people do not have.

A Younger brother is five years, almost five years Younger, four years or a months. Ri mofo fts our birth name, and he played professional baseball for twelve years. Most of us with this, the transitional giants.

But the third word we learned was ball, mommy ball, daddy ball, which just we are infatuated. They can roll IT on the ground, they can throw in the air. We didn't care. And then if you as you get although you start to realized its science and art together um and you want to be playing in front of people, your performer um it's so much fun, it's very expressive, is like I love dance, I love, I love all that I like .

to my son charlie is that was A D one athlete. He played basketball. He had a teacher when he was in six grade.

He had real trouble sitting still, by the way. His first word was also ball and a right. And so he had this teacher, who is incredibly intuitive and SHE, let him bound to borders in class.

Smart, smart, right? very. So he was able to a concentrate as a result. Tracy shout out to Tracy, do that.

Ah brilliant. That's very interesting because in school I got demoted with my grades when I did do well in sports because i'm a girl.

dee moted with grades .

yeah I got unsatisfactory is at a safe factory and fourth grade because miss politics said that I had done too well in sports. And you know, kind of like bragi o show, I guess, to her. I didn't say anything.

I just did IT. And he said i'm going to give you an unsafe factory because of that. Now that would never to a boy, he would be honored.

And yeah, he would be loaded for.

correct? That's the difference. Growing up, always getting negative feedback for doing what I want to do.

But wait, how did your parents react to that when you got the unsatisfactory .

they just let you go to? Just ignore IT don't worry, just keep going. My my mother didn't not want me to play football and other sports because you want to be a lady at all time and I said, mommy, what is SHE said, oh, you know and I said, no, mommy, I don't know what that means. I just remember that so when I playing tennis, SHE was happier, happier but my dad understood totally. He was basketball our first love so um he was a best ball player and he got to ask back in the forties, two join the the NBA he didn't because I wasn't any money in the time and he's very risk adverse that generation with the depression war war two but now he came home and became a firefighter and which I love that he was a firefighter.

I god, yeah I love that too.

I loved that, but I was very difficult when he would go to work because I never knew he's going .

to come back. So he was a proper hero.

right? Well, to me, he was because he believed in me as much as my brother as well. Yeah, I mean, he he told me to go for IT and everybody also around using, huh they didn't really care what I really wanted to change the world through sports, through my I know you dead and that's really what you know it's I wanted us to be a prosper. We were an amateur ort IT was so terrible, I used to scope crazy.

Hey, listen, let me ask you something just because i'm interested about this because you're obviously so fit. And here you are, eight years old. You are.

You're right. I am fit for eighty years old.

but I don't give .

me something again. I think a lot of IT this.

Okay, so that's my question. What's your exercise regime playing tennis two to three times a week with alone? And what else are you're doing? Lifting weights.

I started lifting weight again. I made a promise this year, instead of doing this phrony ally and be pretty consistent, which I have been um but we're still working full time. It's not in work itself and traveling like we do yeah I think also keeps me fit, also keeps my mind active, solving chAllenges, not problems. And I am so happy I was in sports because it's made me strong IT just helped me be strong in every way. There's something, well, IT must be like you and you're acting. I always wonder what actors go through in terms of what like the pressure that's on you like they say, let's go, you know, you have to start the scene of course, if it's not alive, which i'm sure you are thrilled with, sign filled and others that you didn't work live because I don't know you guys get through a sea without cracking up at each other.

Well, sometimes we did, but having said that, there are endorphins that are, know the butterflies whenever you are calling through. It's a, say, racing through your body when you're working. Yes, I mean, even now talking to you, I can feel that, you know, I want to have a good conversation with you. I can feel that driver, you know that in place, and, uh, I can paralyze you, but I can also be great fuel. And I usually use IT for fuel.

I'm a fuel person. I like pressure. I have the same pressures of privilege.

I know I love that saying IT is a privilege vilely to .

have our opportunities for you to do what you, i've done and continue to do and what I do and what I did and yeah, you know what I don't like about getting over as people give up on you.

Oh, come on.

who's given now others ages ism involved .

there are really talk about, let's take .

commercials on television. This is take commercials and not just television, obviously everything. Now, yeah, i'd like people when they watched commercials to really pay attention who's in them.

Let us talk about the ones athletes are in is usually male athletes. They're older, but they are the ones who get the ads. If you see a woman, she's usually a lot Younger, probably around thirty.

They don't give us the same opportunities, right? Do you know many times you'll have a woman ask or idiot woman and y'll says she's a great role model for a woman. Now go to a male, if a males a role model didn't say, oh, he's a great role model for men.

There was even a great room model. I mean, I know it's like everyone can be a role model for somebody if that's what the person like like for me. Ela gibson was my first shiro and SHE was the first to win.

And I didn't think of her that way. I thought of her as the number one player. And I want, if you can see that you can beat IT, right? So I saw her alive when I was thirteen, and I realized how good i'd have to be.

I went, oh my god. H. I'm going to have to be that I would have to practice so hard. Oh.

my god. But, you know, you're going to do IT well.

I shouldn't inly hope to. I, of course, that was my goal since the time I was eleven, to be number one in the world, there was no question in, but still, still to see. Ethier made a huge difference in my life in that SHE was a number one. And if you can see, you can be, you know how good you have to be in what made her great.

I'm just so struck by the realization that you have when you were twelve, I mean, you were saw that so many people were being excluded from tennis, and you decided to .

work on changing that. No, wasn't tennis. IT was life. IT was like watching little rock nine or watching that black kids could not go to school with the my kids.

And I asked my dad, why is that? That's ridiculous. He is what the south. And because of something I really that never happened to me, I mean, I didn't matter. And that really bothered me yeah.

of course. And you also noticed that IT was like only White people .

playing tennis, right? When you in that White clothes, everybody play with White balls and everybody played with White yeah, I said that's not right. This belongs to everyone is such a great sport, although I didn't have to know how twelve years old that there were black people playing, but I had never seen them, but they were.

They form their own association, the one thousand nine hundred and sixteen. So they had their terminals, but they weren't allowed to play in the White turntable is in just like if you go to the U. S.

Open today, which a lot of people do is huge as one of the majors yeah and well, black people weren't allowed to play until thousand nine hundred and fifty. And that's when althea was a player, the fifties, and that's when he won everything and SHE won the U. S.

National als. Now there would be the U. S. open. And SHE was the first to win without her, to win a bit of Arthur ra, aris and Serena or Venus or all these great players. And so I think that was a good example.

It's time for a quick break. But don't worry, there's more with billions and king are just a bit.

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And i'm wondering where you think how did that happen? Where did that sort of intuition that you had? Where did that come from with the culture in your family? Or I, like my parents.

were good to each other, a kind to each other, which I think was huge, just watching how they related, not to say that was perfect, anything god knows that, but they get into IT, but not they're very good to each other and very kind and thought about others. But also, you know, leaders don't choose followers. Followers choose leaders.

And a lot of times of sports, you need somebody to choose a team, for instance. And the kids always chose me to be the leader of the captain. And I was on a bicycle committee that I was only going to be the secretary. But I, they end up always saying, you, you, you do this, I know. No, no, no.

You mean bicycle committee?

Yeah, we have a in in elemental, which I have no idea what that means now. No, I think we had to keep our bikes in certain area. We had to take care of them.

We had to put him in these racks. You know, you got to a, just do the right thing and all that at the school. Keep him in the right place.

I love that. So I was on that come and then, but I always, I was always pushed into leadership positions. And finally, in tennecy, even when we're older, you know the players. So no, you're the one, you're the one. I go, no, no, no.

Why not you when I know typical girls, you know, when you're trying to go out to dinner where you want going to eat, oh, I don't care what you so a guy group, I always want you, he goes, I to go here we got great. Someone made a decision because we're taught always to think about somebody else, okay, always take care of the other. So um anyway, the players push me.

Finally, I just remember one night just kind of daydreaming, lying down on the bed and just thinking, you know, what i'm going did not only accept this, i'm going to thrive on IT. Because I meant to, I thought back to my epiphany is a kid how I felt about everything I got. What am I doing? I meant to do this.

And that was IT. I just embraced ed IT and absolutely decided to be the best leader I could be. But to be a great leader to me means, for instance, you can be a me. You have to be we, or you can be I. You have to be us, you know um you have to include others in years.

It's always about what can I do to help the people have a Better life? How can I make IT Better for all of us, but particularly them first, and that's what makes me tick, is creating opportunities, others. That's really what I love like starting to when the sport foundation I found in at fifty years ago, we have our fifth anniversary this year.

I am so stoked, we've given out over hundred million dollars of just helping kids, especially girls of color. Also, we work with the national women's lost in her over title nine. Those are the things that that matter to me a lot.

Have you ever very deeply doubted ge yourself as a leader?

Oh, for sure. You always wonder, especially when you didn't make that happen. If I didn't make that happen, I go, god, where did I go wrong and but you know what, you're always good as the team is um also relationships to everything they really are. Yeah right.

IT starts from that. But like blin was an example where I didn't go the way you wanted, and then you had doubts what IT would be an example of that ability chain.

Well, the thing I love, the most problems in tennis is world in tennis started in one thousand nine hundred and seventy four in law, and I ended up running IT over time. Over the last part of that, we sold IT to billionaire because we thought we really need more money in this if we going to do IT, right? And they wanted IT.

So we saw that to them. But, you know, they let you go so and so I was very upset with myself and I thought, god, if I could start over because so easy in hindsight, know there wasn't, there wasn't the money and seventy four that there is now. Now people are investing in women sports. They're actually investing in IT, not helping us. They think it's a great .

investment now for the is for an economic opportunity by way that over one .

hundred years late. Yeah, I mean, it's like this is really a lot of work in long term investment, but it's worth IT because because IT gives women and girls a platform that didn't have yeah and and to help these kids, I keep telling everyone of you is a leader in your town, your state, your country, your world. You if you decide whatever makes you happy to do things, but look at how much you can give back to kids coming up.

But more importantly is about how can we help others that don't have as much. And women should try to make a lot of money. I tell women to be ambitious. We need to have more women on boards.

Yes, we do. We need more women on boards. We need more women positions of leadership. We need more women, period, making decisions.

Oh yeah.

which oh god, this reminds me. By the way, I want to ask you about renay Richards, the first transgender woman to play for the W. T.

A. Back in the seventies, correct. Can you tell a sad story about how you convince the players at the W.

T. A to allow rene to come on board? Can you tell us that story? So good.

A lona. My wife, she's the only person ever to play renne as a male, and rena is a woman I keeps. IT is amazing. Okay, that's.

by the way, an incredible fact. But tell, I mean, how did you get the other women on the tour to let rena play? Tell that part?

Well, I went and talk to doctors. I said, how should we perceive this? I'm very ignorant.

And they said, now she's considered a woman. I said, okay. I said, do you think she's be able to play as a woman? I said, yes. I called me, which for me is hard to call if you know me well, i'm very actually shy and I have a hard time calling people. So okay.

I I do have a problem believing what .

you you can ask, go on shit. I sucked IT up. But and also, it's not about me here.

It's about others. I'm good. good. Won about the team. OK. Yeah, here that and I call her, I said, can I listen to you and talk to you and she's great. So we talk for four hours. I listen to her and I went back to the woman.

I said, you guys, we really should let her play according i've gone to the, i've done some homework and they said, no and I said, okay, I hear you and I had this thing with the woman that always used to work. I finally figured that out, which is, I said, how about if we try to let play for two weeks? I would cut the time down really height short so it's like a sample yeah you know and like IT won't be too much for them psychologically, emotionally to handle and like, okay, we'll try that, kay.

So SHE comes on the tour and within three or four days I coming SHE is so nice. SHE is so great because they were worried about the locker room, know there's a lot of things to go through your mind that we're so ignite, we don't understand up. They loved her.

They were fine. They were fine after that was fine. Now it's very different though, because there's a lot more transgender athletes there.

And should they be allowed to play in a elite competition, some people were very pratic about IT that they shouldn't am on the side of inclusion is my first want. And so I don't want anyone to be exclusive. So we've got to figure this out.

So yeah, we got to figure this .

out because I don't want anyone not to be able to participate. That's what kills me.

So you ve spent so much of your life making the world, as you'd continue to do today, a Better place for everybody else. Have you always taken care of yourself? Do you think that that this is a way of putting off, taking care of yourself next?

For sure, when I was Younger, but I took care of myself when I was playing because as part of the goal, like eat, so many college they work out, take good care myself that have to as part of my job, I say that I was very good then. But then, you know, I have an any disorder and and i'm a bengel. Every morning I wake up, I tell myself I have a lily disorder.

I still go to therapy. I still think about IT is interesting with the new injections, you know, with the olympics of the world. And right, very interesting. Because my doctor wants me to try.

And do you want to?

I I don't want to lose weight fast, because I think IT and IT looks horrible. I don't think it's healthy. I would like to lose IT slowly.

But the important thing my therapies asked me, which I had thought about, is that he said, has quit your mind because i've taken a few. And Jackson now I went, wow, that's interesting. Because within any disorder, I have like two voices in my heads sometimes that argue.

And what do they say?

It's it's two two sides. Let's say, I want a quarter of an ice cream one side say, yeah, baby, i'm gonna have that ice cream no matter what and the other size is, no, don't do that. It's not healthy.

You don't need IT you're not going to miss IT the other cycles screw you. I'm having the high score. So you have that. I have this this discussion that goes on in my head and sometimes it's very elevated. I mean, that really elevated.

And that's why I thought I was very interesting because this is we talk about this and eating disorder and IT was such a great question because if IT does do that, quite is quiet the voice, if that's a part of IT. Now I am. Now i'm on IT because that would be really great because that gets exhAusting entiring.

And I don't want to fight over these things. You know, it's like, god, do I have to go through this again? Every day is not every day.

It's just different moments. And then I say, I under more stress. Is that why this is happening? No, that doesn't follow IT all no, i've tried that. So at the point is I still get IT doesn't matter, so I gotto pay attention.

That's the main thing. When exactly did you start to sort of look after yourself? Take really.

i'd say and one was around fifty and i'm going through all my sexuality stuff like, oh my god, I was a mess. And that, I think caused a lot of my eating disorder as well.

So what happened at fifty?

I went to rain through and philadelphia back in ninety five fish, and I went to therapy. And I lived there for six weeks in when you go, when you go there, you cannot communicate with the outside, really. And I would go to therapy three times a week. I would go to is there's also couples you have to go to, which is long about fainted. She's what he comes.

What rent through is an eating disorder clinic. Is that yes.

I you'll live there.

okay? yeah.

And every friday a family, oh boy, it's rough. And then you have every hour on the hour you have a different like movement therapy, sculpture therapy, everything throw.

Whatever did your parents come?

They finally came after. I just kept pleading with them to come.

They came once.

And how does that go? I went, alright. I went pretty good, except my deadly over to me.

And he so cute. He goes, Billy, you're not like these other girls here. And I looked at him, and I go, dad, i'm exactly like these girls here.

what?

What are you laughing? I started laughing because we always have, you know, you always laugh at anything which we started calling. And I got this, and there's a there. No, because he thinks i'm fine. He thinks i'm great and I go, dad, and I go, dad, i'm just like them. I'm struggling and he goes, okay, honey, I hear you'd when things you're good and size when I was Billy jane, if I came though, I knew as a big travel.

And what about your mom? What was that like harder .

time than my dad with my being gay or trying to fear who I am by sexual in the beginning? I don't know, but no. And I noticed you call your mother mommy. I call my mother mommy too. I love calling my mother mommy SHE SHE also loved hearing IT and receiving IT.

Yeah.

it's cozy is so it's like a big hug.

It's a big hug. That's exactly right.

And my boys called me mommy and I .

love IT her yeah.

And you call your ddd all them yeah, yeah, yeah. Obviously, i'm aly and are not alive anymore. Unfortunately, I wish they were.

Were I got rand, my brother. I talk about how how fortunate we were to have them, and they never really ask if we won. You know, so many parents go, did you win?

Did you win? Did you win? They go. How do they go?

Course, if I lost, I was just crazed. I, I love match. I lost my match.

I was so Better. My dad, I just have one question. Did you try your best? I said, of course, I tried my best. He goes, that's good enough.

Yeah, you're lucky. Yeah, your lucky. What I I have to say, our son that I mentioned to you, yes, he was baseball player when he was Young. And if he lost a game, my husband and I would negotiate who was going to drive him home if we were there in separate cars.

if you often.

because he would be screaming and rising in the back seat they lost.

I should have been with them. We would had a great time.

He was, his said, I mean, IT was so fucked and bad with him in the back seat, i'm telling you. So how did you .

decide you want to be entertainment? Can I ask this?

Yeah, you can ask me anything.

Yeah, i'd rather ask you questions really.

I just always wanted to be an actor, just like from my earliest memory, I was always performing.

Yeah, you work because your your mother explained that you asked, how was I as a girl remember in one of your energy yeah when you talk to her in the SHE said you were dialog, you know, you had dialogue going and you had this going and yeah, he said you were always, you were always .

basically acting. But used in when we were in nursery school, they used to have nap time, you know, and I would get, I would stand on my blanket and I would dance for people during nap time.

So you like dancing, I do well.

I'd like performing. So my nap time dance was IT seemed to be a big hit among the early .

school would be great. Oh my god, I heard. Remember kini garden?

That's what was obvious. Little maps unlike, huh, about play. Can I go play basketball? Can I go play .

baseball on one? Can I go? You know, I was, I have to tell you, when I was in, I didn't play much tennis because I the one thing that I get, I get when I started to compete physically in a sport, I get very anxious. It's not for me and but I did go to tennis camp when I was an eighth grade, our seventh grade and um they gave awards out at the end and they gave me misconstrue.

Okay, but it's like, yeah I got to see that. But it's interesting that you feel anxious, and when I listened to you how when you how you feel when you perform is how I feel when I play tennis, I don't feel that anxious that you feel of the tennis camp at all. Yeah, right.

I want to be where. And I love that. I love that.

I want, in fact, i'd love tennis to be more boysterous. I think it's too quiet. I think we have names on the back of the shirt.

I think we are just so out of IT because, you know, they can. I keep saying you guys, everybody, I think you're talking to forty years old. You're talking fifty years old.

I said, what about the seven, ten year old? Their concentration spends seven seconds now I mean, yeah, no kids. We i've wanted this forever far sport.

Okay, because I grew up in the other sports like have, hey, how have you know? And one of them went backwards ago, oh no, we're going to go back to all White what I said, oh, great. So now you all White.

White.

White, no, no, predominated White anymore. So I turned IT on. I go, oh, great.

Both people have why to gin? Okay, great. Who zoo? It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous throughout the lunch.

How do you make that change? That's actually an interesting change to try to you know.

i'm just going to keep trying, right? Because we have the Billy jean king cup, which is the world cup of women's ten us now and they renny ed IT after me. And now we're involved in that and we want to make that like the socket role cup is the world tennis in the men's of Davis cup, and we're working with them.

And I think there's a real a culture to IT we are missing out on that would be fun for the audience because when you perform is, you know everything is about your audience and that tennis court is our stage. When I look at the tennis, that is my stage. A, B, give me the ball and type feeling.

And so so when you walk out there, you know, here's what most players think are athletes. They think everyone is there for them. No, we're there for the audience.

Our job is to make the audience have a great day, a great moment. And when they go home, and I think, god, that was great, that was whatever. And I want to go back and I want to take up this or I want to do that, it's like we are there for them. And everybody, intense, thinks the audiences is there for them. And i'm like, oh, my god, if so, I I, I it's we then you I don't know that's how I think.

So can we just let's talk about for a second, female empowerment. Have you always in your life felt equal to men?

I've never felt equal to mean.

ha, talk about that Billy jean king.

let me let me correct that. I do feel equal. The world doesn't feel we're equal.

That's what IT is. The world looks at is differently. I don't particularly look at this that much differently, just personal on a personal level. But every single day I have to deal with some mesage ini.

If i'm .

around a malathion, i'm definitely in the background no and yet people who are in the know sometimes I say, hey boy, you should move over. You're not even close to what she's done or something occasions. But I.

We're in class citizens all the time. Yeah and pay in attention. The money we make is always less. That's why I want women sports to do well because I know the more we make, the more people appreciate is the more they think about every single job though it's about thinking, oh, women deserve to have the same. Yeah, we shouldn't have to be going through this.

But the way a lot what you start, how you started the program is exactly what the chAllenges is, not to be able to give a credit card. When I was playing, and also right in one thousand nine hundred and sixty six, actually title nine hadn't happened. Title nine happened in seventy two.

So I didn't get a scholarship. I didn't get paid to go to how I work two jobs, and nobody gave. I think i've been reverse, let's say I am the one that got to go to school on a to college on a scholarship and the guys didn't.

I guarantee everybody be absolutely crazy that the men don't. When the men don't get something, they go crazy. Well, they they need to do that more and more for us and they're listen to.

you know, it's funny. I was talking my friend paul about this just yesterday. We're saying, you know, it's interesting how many times in conversation, just social conversation, if a man starts speaking and holding fourth, right everyone, right, everyone shuts up and including myself, by the way, which I now, as I say this, very irritated with myself about that but there is the sort of unspoken, well, that makes sense that he's bloviating and right, that's too bigger .

words for me. But just isn't .

IT a good no, isn't that a good word? Doesn't that totally describe what IT is?

But this what happens in boards? A woman will have an idea. SHE comes up with IT. But until the guy says exactly the same thing he did, they go, old joe, that was a great idea. Even though the woman are provided earlier and they steal the ideas all the time and take create fort.

I mean, and in my own life, I mean, of course.

there's massoni well entertainment. It's unbelievable.

It's unbelievable. And I had to struggle enormously and really push back to try to get credit as producer on various projects i've worked on. And I got big time push back, despite the fact that I had had decades, decades of experience. Yeah.

you and you truly wear the producer of the show, one of the producers, at least of the show.

exactly. And I got push back from studios, from various other producers. I mean, IT was a it's infuriating and it's also sometimes it's it's just i'm not lie.

It's intimidating. Yeah you know, because there is that little voice that says, oh, really should do I not deserve this? Am I wrong asking.

you know, I hope you don't get that that much. No.

I don't. I don't. But IT is been there. I don't .

like how we've won. I mean, we'd say win and sports all the ends, the awards. And yeah, I mean, you really have to suck IT up.

I suck IT up all the time. I just yeah because when I ve because you're not going to win, you know that too. They're certain times you go okay, i'm to let this one go. I don't like IT, but i'm going to have to let you go.

We'll get more wisdom from Billy jean king after the super quick break. Stay tuned.

Okay uh let's let's go back in time for a second for our listeners okay. Um so it's thousand nine hundred and seventy three that's robi wade and the equal rights amendment era yeah and women are in a real fight for equality at this time.

And you, Billy gene, you get approached by this guy, Bobby rigs, who had been a good player back in the day, but at this point was really more of a showman, right? And he chAllenges you to an internally televised match, the battle of the sexes. And this is after he'd already beaten ten, the formidable Margaret court.

So you had to wait. And people, you really have to understand how big this was. IT was huge, and you played him. And thank god, oh my god, I am so happy on that .

village in was big. IT was a huge turning point, really, and IT just been past year before. Yeah, we were in our third year of women's professional tennis. IT was very crucial that I went because we had our tour.

And I think if I lost, I don't know if the tour would have made IT or not, because I really helped enhanced what we are trying to do. Also men's professional tennis, Young as well. The day after that match, you couldn't get on a test court.

That's when we had a big tennis, bob. That's just for tennis. But for a society. Finally, in seventy five, we are allowed to get a credit at our own. Would be .

congratulations.

What I did is peak the interests of people. Both genders are all, all gender, we say now. But then both gender, man and women and women IT really helped yourself confidence.

I could not believe how they change. They would want up to me thanking me. And then they go, you know, i've been wanting a race for ten years.

And I finally the courage to ask for IT know, I said, well, more important, did you get IT? And SHE said, I did get IT because girls are taught not to ask for what we want in need. We are taught, do not go there. Okay, do not ask.

And they did. Well, there was a cultural shift because you won. And did you know, did you keep in mind what was sort of on the line? Or did you have to sort of tuck that away and focus on the how did that work in your head as you were actually playing?

I knew six weeks out and six weeks out on a mess. I'm thinking about all the consequences. I'm picturing myself running every ball down and picture myself making every shot and picture bad calls.

I picture how i'm gonna react to that. I'm gonna react. I'm gonna stay.

I'm looking at in the next point right away. I'm gona stay focus. I'm not gonna talk. I picked him myself, making every shot running, every ever shut down.

I picked a mention of getting every serve and everything, and but also responding to things that aren't ate. I also go out the day before and meet all the security guards. I meet all administrators.

I meet everybody there. And now this is is an astronomy. Nothing's worse than not, is getting lost in an arena. I get to know everybody.

I went in the stands and going up to the top and the cheap seats to see what I would feel like as a fan. In other words, I totally prepare. I really big on preparation.

I think processes just how you went. You stay in the now, you stay in the present. Well, I know when when you're acting, aren't you in the present totally and when you don't do well.

we're not right in that sense. It's like a meditation. It's just a singular focus, right? Yes.

if you talk to other people that are the best than what they do, IT always comes down to being in the present I call IT. In the now do you meditate? By the way, I do meditate?

Yes.

every day probably yeah, I think so. And I get meditate for fifteen seconds, even help yeah and even in a match, if you're changing in and you sit down as a great time to meditate for fifty second, you get about, you get ninety seconds. So take take a part of that, and just meditate.

Just get your breathing down. Get, you know, here, just be, just be. And yes, I can do that, but I can partner lize very quickly. My brain goes very fast. I can compart realize really quickly, which I didn't realize, others couldn't do, which I think has been a big help to me.

I also knew that if I were going, if this was going to be my life, to try to make this world a Better place, that I wouldn't win as many titles. And I was willing not to win as many titles if off the court, if you would make the world a Better place. That to me is winning more than ever, winning a map tack against Bobby riggs.

But by the way, you've done both. You've made the world a Better place and you've one a gazillions titles.

I'm not finish yet.

but I know you're not okay.

I not do you?

So IT sounds like I mean, you are obviously incredibly competitive person at and as certainly as a tennis player, but also as a business woman and as a leader, you have a sense of lets get IT done, let's win this thing. yeah. Yes.

you're write. And to me, what does that mean? Creating opportunities for the generation right now and the generations to that will follow.

That gives them opportunity, that gives them hope, that gives them and then gets scholarships, just helps them be a Better player, a Better person, Better human being. Yeah, because know is an athlete, you're done early. So what do you can do with the rest of your life? You like singers, can keep singing.

You can keep working in company forever, forever. We know that in a very Young we cannot do that. Okay, so what are we going to do? So those are the kinds of things we have to think about.

Yeah exactly. Which by the way, leads me to this question. Oh so um this is from um I have a niece who's A D three athlete and m age.

Play soccer yes.

great. And I texted her, her name is Grace and I text yesterday I said, gracy, i'm talking to bilging tomorrow and I said, you have any questions and he said the following to your point he said, what advice do you have for Young athletes transitioning into the working world and leaving behind life as student athletes? Because, you know, I think he feels, you know, all of untethered without the sport that she's been playing her whole life.

What the two things, okay, that he could think about. I can stay in soccer but not play soccer. There's a thousand jobs.

That's another great thing. There's jobs all around your sport. If you want to stay in IT.

There's three things that ed wallet and I you know our mentor ed waler, whose the president do on and CEO and dear friend, to just pass, he and I, I said, I need three things for graduation, but I need three things I can give them. It'll help him the rest of their lives. I want to do this.

I want this to make IT simple, easy. The three things are, and they do not have to be in this order, relationships or everything. So while Graces playing soccer, meet as many people as you can get to everyone really enjoy them as human beings. Get to know them because you never know, okay, you just don't know. And it's fun.

I think it's fun. Well, I I love people so works for me.

But the second one to keep learning and to keep learning how to learn like technology for my age group is rough. Okay, so i'm going to asking next year old, come over here, help me. Um yes. And then the third one is be a problem solver and an innovator and that means in real life and in work or whatever you do. And those three things, I think as I go through each day, I know I hit on those at least one of them every day.

This is great wisdom, what you're imparting. I mean, for real.

do you think they will help? Grace, though.

that's why I didn't let you know. I know I really appreciate IT. I'm gonna tell her.

But being in a sport, SHE can stay in the sport. And another different capacity, if he loves like this, I want to leave a soccer. But more important, what else do you want to do? But those three things, I think we'll cover just about any direction he wants to go.

okay. So now listen, I want to ask you something. I'd like to know if there's something you'd go back until yourself at twenty one.

twenty one, let me think. Or was twenty OK twenty ones right before I won one and and all that. I probably didn't understand enough at that time about being my authentic self. Like, who am I? I didn't know who I was yet.

And nowadays, I think that's the one great thing with today is that I think I we've had a chance, a bigger chance, a Better chance to be my authentic s self, being a Younger person today, that not to say IT wouldn't be difficult, sure, or whatever, because we never know. I think trans people have a really hard time today. I think the LGBT communities having a harder time again, I don't like IT.

I think that we should just be kind of good to each, each other, actually human beings first, we all bleed red ah doesn't matter what color our skin is, doesn't matter what yeah how we self identify sexually IT. Doesn't matter that we be that we just start I always think when I meet somebody that I think of IT as I go blank, I try to go blank in my head to start with a blank piece of paper in away before I start drawing who this person is, and that I really always want to think the best than first. And then if they prove differently over time, then that's a whole another discussion.

But I think it's really important to start out with this being kind of good to whoever you meet and don't have any preconceived ideas about them. And we're all biased. But the important thing is do a good check when we are. I was going to stop. Start with nothing first, just be kind of good unless they proves you that they're just they're bad news.

You're bad news. But is there anything before we go? Is there anything that you want me to know about aging?

You know what I found? I think aging has been in some ways the greatest in some ways is tough. Tough physically, there is no question.

And also your mind, you know, mentally where the I don't want to get dementia for incense. Scared to that because my parents had IT things like that. But i'll tell you, it's really been fantastic and that is emotionally.

I am so happy compared to the my Young day. I cannot tell you really, but i've worked at through therapy s thinking through. Just going through tough times but I just emotionally am in such .

a great place now oh my god.

I know that but I don't know ever yes.

I know I am. I in a touch with i'm a very good place yeah um I totally amen I but i'm so happy that you say that and you're not actually you know because on this show we speak to older women about their wisdom and that you're not the first person who has said that there is something that you're able to sort of sit comfortable ly in and let go of a lot at a certain age which is a complete lessing.

right? yes. And also when you're older had perspective that you didn't have as a Younger person.

哼， you have perspective .

if you've live on things, don't bother you much, right? That's why kids love their grandparents so much.

right?

Because the great and for girls, yeah and they say, oh my god, I can tell him this but oh my god and then you'd tell me, go okay and they go, yes, you're not of sunday no, are you okay? Where's a parent? What is so yeah.

a lot of hand ringing. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, completely.

They are more understanding. It's true. It's completely true. I can't thank you enough for talking with me today. I really enjoyed every .

second of this. Appreciate, say, how to really tell us your team of people because everything starts with team really totally. Hello, thanks again for all their help.

We're really appreciate. Good luck in your lives. Go for IT.

Oh my god, Billy jean king, that woman is just so impressive that human is impressive. Um my mom is going to love to hear about this when it's time together on the zoom call.

Hi mommy, I love, how are you .

IT is rainy, rainy here is IT .

raining there? I wish no, it's full sun. But we talked to bly drinking .

today and you .

would just love this woman billiam king mom IT was just SHE is such a positive human being um let's talk about the bobbi rigs match because you know you originally wanted to have this match with her Billy drinking is obviously a serious professional athlete has no time for this bulls ship match with bobbi rigs and the Margaret court, who was another professional tennis player at the time and he did play him and he lost and so then when Bobby riggs came to Billy jean, say, now i'm going to beat you Billy jean king realized what was at stake here. SHE knew that what the symbolic of this match was critical and that .

he had to win IT me sera joke match no in many ways and then .

IT wasn't because .

right exactly is he won and um and then it's her humorous way that changed the the flow of history .

where did not I mean, he says generally speaking, uh, women's self confidence was lifted up in a way. And it's funny because I think IT really sept into the win really seeped into the culture in terms of a feminism and women empowerment and sense of self.

And he was such A A ragdoll o and he was gone to win and he was going to win and he was gone to win and and that made IT even more delicious, the fact that he just played the .

game and SHE played him and killed him in three straight sets, you know and um I asked her if he feels equal to men and he says he feels equal to man but that the world doesn't feel that way. What has been your experience as a woman in in a world where manner in .

charge from generation? I would say that one thing um in the beginning I just went on with that I mean I just I I I accepted that and you know when I went to do and went as a premier, well I had to do in the south that time in the the fifties will say I we're gonna go to medico say no women don't go to medical and I said, oh okay so so I mean that that shows you that that I was whatever they said was fine and it's it's only I said with a friend of my one time that I think my generation was sort of sidewalk feminine.

The feminine movement out of happen to us. We didn't welt. People like begin king made IT happen.

But but most of us so resort of living living with the reality of IT and start keeping keeping our skills and our power to ourselves。 So women with other women could be do all kinds of things, but IT IT let a man under the room. And IT was a very charge in different, different atmosphere.

And I described what that means, like how is IT charge and how .

is a different the women the women were sort of the um the the generators when they were together and talking but if a man came in, there was a kind of A A giving over.

It's like, oh well, yeah, what we have to say, what do you have to say? What do you think that's what's really important? And then in so many instance is even now in a room it'll be the men that what I mean for a woman to be heard in a room sometimes even is is like um people sort sit back and I mean it's it's serve noticed not so much. Now maybe because of course .

we maybe no mom, maybe no. I mean i'm certainly aware of that you know certainly aware of the .

fact that if like in .

a in a writers room, for example, um male writers are much more comfortable taking charge and saying what's what and speaking up in a way that women aren't necessarily I mean I really such a big generalization， of course is not always the case but its funny how it's sort of that in equity has tiny little routes that have filtered into the culture in a way that is poisonous without our even realizing that.

I think that's really want a way to put IT. And you know what's interesting is that when you get older, and I would say that there are more women now living longer than men yeah and they are taking charge. I mean, they they do they take charge and they don't think too much about IT. I think IT just like I i've also been waiting always i've always done this or i've been waiting to do this or they is within them as something that hasn't oyster helped and they're just waiting .

for the guys to die and then they're going to.

That's one way. But you know, one thing that i'm excited about, you having talk to ability, jing king, is because SHE truly was iconic. A is iconic. I mean, yes, the figure that represents so much right turning, correct being and SHE SHE seem to have that like a motor in her that was just gonna know if she's got the life force in her. And I I say there's a woman that is used at all of her life.

all of her life and for the greater good, by the way.

thanks to her for, you know, women getting paid in athletics. Now with thanks, yeah, getting looked up to in athletics of a woman.

enough that period even, you know, back in the day, the only professional sport women could play with golf, yes, right? That was IT can play any sport professionally, I E, B, paid for. And um by the way, he loves that I call you mommy. Oh, because SHE calls her mom or call her mother's past when now. But he called her mom mommy and her dad daddy, just like we do.

I love that there's something so crazy about that.

That's what I said to her. He says it's like .

a giant hug IT is, IT is and went and when you hear mommy, you know like when you here, I don't know what your boys call .

you but when mommy, they call me mommy or ma.

yeah, it's just, it's too wonderful. It's too wonderful. So yes, keep IT up for all, for for everything.

one hundred percent. Mommy, I always will. All right, mom, I say goodyer to you.

I love you. Thank you. I'd love you too, honey.

There is more wiser than me with lemonade premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content from each episode of the show. Subscribe now in apple podcast. Follow the show at wiser than me on instagram, tiktok and facebook.

Two, why do than me as a production of lemon auto media created and hosted by me, july li drive us. This show is produced by crissy peace, jella era Williams, alex michelin and oh lo pez. Brad hall is a consulting producer, Rachel neal is VP of new content, and our S V, P of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson.

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