The Real History Behind Westeros with Medieval Historian Charles Farris
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May the luck of the seven shine upon all combatants. Don't worry about her. She's going to be fine. Childbirth in the Middle Ages? Great. There's never been any issues.

Welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon. I'm Jason Concepcion. And I'm Greta Johnson. Season two of House of the Dragon is just around the corner, and we are spending these weeks getting ready for the premiere on June 16th. Today, we're doing a deep dive into the world of Westeros. What would it really be like to live there? What inspired its culture and its leaders? And why is everybody so excited?

So desperate to rule this place? These are all very good questions, and luckily today we are going to be joined by a very special guest who actually consulted on House of the Dragon Season 2 in order to help bring an authentic old world grit to the screen. Medieval historian Dr. Charles Ferris. But first, let's take the express dragon to Westeros. Here is the hard truth, which no one else has the heart to tell you.

Men would sooner put the round to the torch than see a woman ascend the Iron Throne. Okay, so Westeros is obviously a very brutal world based on medieval Europe, which in many ways, certainly from my extremely layperson's knowledge of it, was also quite brutal. So here's the question. If you had to pick one technological advancement that would make living in Westeros easier for you, what would it be? Oh my God.

There are so many. Some kind of modern medicine. Yeah. I'm not talking like MRIs and stuff. You know, I have...

seasonal allergies and I'm an asthmatic. So if I could get my asthma inhaler, I think that would make me feel a lot more confident about living in this world. It seems like it's got a lot of pollen and things like that in it. Yeah, that's a good call. I would go glasses, which is kind of to your point too, around the medical stuff. Great one. Right? Yeah, actually great one. I don't know though, like flushing toilets are also pretty great. They don't know what they're missing, the folks at Westeros.

That's very true. So obviously, Westeros is not a real place. But George R.R. Martin, we know, of course, is like a huge history buff.

And he did take inspiration from real history when he was creating this world that we're seeing in House of the Dragon. I want to listen to a clip, Jason. This is actually of you talking with him at San Diego Comic-Con from a couple of years ago. And this was a panel that you moderated right before season one of House of the Dragon came out. I asked George and showrunner Ryan Condal and the others on the panel, you know, what is it about Westeros that makes them so anti-having a queen?

My books are fantasies, obviously, but I do follow history a lot. I get inspiration from history and then I take elements from history and I turn it up to 11, you know, obligatory spinal tap reference, or to 111. Game of Thrones, as many people observe, was based very loosely on the Wars of the Roses. This show was based on an earlier period of English history called the Anarchy. And, you know, I...

Pilfered freely from real history when Henry the first the the king of villain when his only legitimate son Drowned while trying to cross the English Channel He was left with only one legitimate child which was his daughter Matilda and he named her his heir and he made all the lords of the kingdoms where their fealty to her and

And then some years later he died and most of the Lords of the Kingdom forgot about that oath or said no it doesn't apply So that was the inspiration there. I don't I don't think Westeros is particularly More anti woman or more misogynistic than real life and what we call history How did that answer strike you?

It makes total sense. I mean, I think we always knew that George was a huge nerd and we love that. It's so much fun even just to hear his voice because it's like, oh, there's George. I'm not surprised that it's based on history and I'm excited to kind of dive in on that with you a little bit in this episode today. Cannot wait. So if you don't know much about the English anarchy stuff that George was talking about here, don't worry. You are not alone. We are going to learn much more about that period of history and how the House of the Dragon team melded fantasy and real world history next with medieval historian...

Dr. Charles Farris. Charles, thank you so much for joining us. Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm a big fan of your podcast, so thank you. It's really exciting to be here. That's super sweet. That's so nice. So how did you get this gig on House of the Dragon?

Oh, well, yeah, very exciting. I was just sent an invitation. I've done a little bit of consulting before, but I didn't really know what I was going to be consulting on exactly. I was sent a little bit of script, which was very exciting, but I didn't know about the questions. And I turned up one day and met a load of the directors and we just chatted medieval for the afternoon, which is basically what I like doing for fun anyway, but don't normally get to do with really important directors. So pretty exciting stuff.

The term medieval history, what does it mean? Ah, well, you know, if you had 10 historians here, they would all argue about when exactly medieval was. But to break it down into like the most simple terms is medieval or the Middle Ages, as it's also known, literally means the middle period. We're talking the period of time between the ancient world and the modern world.

If you want dates, again, historians are going to argue about that all day. But roughly from the period about 500 with the fall of the Western Roman Empire up until about 1500 with the Reformation in Europe. That's a European definition, but that's my specialty. So that's what I'm going to talk about today. Charles, what do you think is behind our continuing fascination with this period of time?

I mean, I think it's one of those things because it's really familiar to everyone in some ways. You say medieval to someone and they probably think castles and tournaments and banquets and great halls and things. They might have some places in mind. But at the same time, it's also really mysterious. It feels like a long time ago. A lot of the customs seem really mysterious. It's the familiar mixed with the complete unknowing, I think, which makes it really exciting.

Well, I think it's such an interesting time, too, because in so many ways they knew so little, right? You know, I mean, I think in terms of like scientific developments or even understanding, you know, like, is Earth the center of the universe? There were so many questions that were still questions even. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, definitely still questions. I mean, you know, if I had some academic historians here with me, they would say, you know, like, ideas of the Dark Ages are completely wrong. This is a very advanced society. And in many ways, that is true. But as you say, you know, their understanding of science was very much still evolving. They were very much looking to the ancient world and to the East in many ways to try and understand their texts and learn more about history and science and all these things.

But they were also very much guided by the church and their teachings too. So we talk about the Renaissance. There were lots of Renaissance's, you know, in the 12th century, in the 14th century, the 15th century. This is a time when everyone's very curious, but you know, there's a lot of uncertainty in the world as well.

I think that also allows for some really interesting elements like believing in things like dragons and fairies, you know? Absolutely. I mean, you know, this is a time when, you know, stories are very popular and, you know, they're listening to stories and hagiography. The lives of saints are very interesting and, you know, people are talking about dragons and things in there and,

people were told that there were strange places in the world where you could go, where strange creatures lived and strange things would happen. And so in some ways it was a very small world for many people, but also one that was looking outwards and slightly scared of what was around the corner. And yeah, a lot of uncertainty, but a lot of mythology as well.

George R. R. Martin has said, quote, I take elements from history and turn that up to 11. Yeah. Are those elements obvious to you? Like, do you see a certain scene or a passage or a collection of episodes and say, oh, I know, I know where that's coming from?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, there's definitely like, you know, lots of inspiration. There's lots of texture from the medieval world, for sure. I listened on your podcast when you interviewed him and he was talking about how he's really interested in history, reads a lot of history, reads a lot of public history, popular history. You can tell that with the way he writes, you know, he's very much inspired by the medieval world and Game of Thrones characters.

was inspired by the Wars of the Roses. This one is very much inspired by a period of history called the Anarchy. And you can tell that. And I see things and I think, oh, I wonder if that is what a tournament would have looked like. Oh, you know, that's an interesting detail. But what's wonderful about it is, you know, because it's not

historic fiction. You know, it's not set in a specific time. It's inspired by, as you say, he does it up to 11. And, you know, we get to enjoy that without worrying too much about, you know, whether the historical detail is absolutely accurate, which is what normally upsets historians. Well, you know, hopefully they don't have to worry too much in this sense. So, yeah. Are you able to just enjoy it or do you sometimes get stressed out about potential anachronisms or is it just like, well, it's a fantasy world anyway, so it's fine?

One of the great things about Game of Thrones is while it's inspired by the medieval world, but it's also a fantasy and you can see that engaging with lots of those sorts of ideas. And he's not the first to do it, of course, you know, Lord of the Rings and J.R. Tolkien. He was a medievalist himself, a great expert on medieval literature, and he took inspiration too. But I think also what makes it so believable and what all these great sort of world building exercises, when they're successful, it's when they really tap into human emotions too.

He plays on our own fears and ambitions and desires and anxieties in a way that takes this completely alien fantasy world where dragons exist, but also makes it very human because you think, well, what would I do like in that situation? So what is it like? What is an average consulting workday like?

for Charles to look like on House of the Dragon. Yeah, well, as I said, I didn't really know what to expect. You know, this is the largest thing I've consulted on, which might not surprise you because it's pretty big. And then I was suddenly introduced to all these, you know, amazing directors who were really interested in the medieval period. And so we had lots of discussions about everything from, you know, what a battle would feel like, what were the aspects of sieges, what might a medieval town have felt like.

The materiality of the medieval palace. I've worked a lot with medieval royal accounts, so that was really fun to get to explore that. Lots of conversations about that and some specific ones. Like, did they smoke? And I was like, no, they didn't smoke at this point. But, you know, lots of interesting texture, which they were clearly trying to bring into their work.

not only would I try and answer their specific questions, and sometimes the answer is, you know, we just don't know. The sources only tell us so much. That's the job of the historian to gather together lots of different evidence. So I'd give an interpretation. But I would also send them the sort of sources that we work with, you know, like little clips from chronicle accounts.

which they could read about, you know, the way they were writing about the past then and different types of medieval life. I mean, one of the really fun ones that I sent them was something called Fitz Stephen's Chronicle of London, which is a 12th century description of what medieval London was like. I'm talking from London today. And...

It's amazing. It's an amazing source because it basically describes what it's like going to London. And, you know, it starts off with like, well, they've got these big castles and they've got these huge cathedrals and all the people are this. But then it starts to talk about what they do for fun, what they do on the weekend, what the kids are like, you know, how the kids get in lots of arguments and fights and have debates on the weekend, where you go in London for great food and stuff like that, you know, which sounds so modern. You know, it sounds like a modern travel guide. And yet this was written in the 12th century by a clerk who worked for Thomas Beckett.

So, you know, pretty fun. And I don't think they were expecting that level of detail when I sent it to them. That's amazing. I love that so much. So what was your familiarity with Westeros before you started actually consulting on House of the Dragon?

Well, as I said, you know, I was going there very much as a medieval historian, not as a sort of like a text checker. And I've seen the Game of Thrones, obviously, and really enjoyed them. And I had seen the first House of the Dragon series as well. But I hadn't read the book at that point that it's based on, which I now know is sort of like written like a history. It's sort of like pieced together with lots of different fragments from historians. And reading that's really interesting as a historian myself, because you're just like,

all these chroniclers are writing this and this and all these different narratives, all these different people writing this account of history. And I think you even commented on this podcast about how they don't often agree and this is clearly a specific version of history and it's probably not necessarily right either. And that's a really familiar thing that historians do on a day-to-day, like can I trust this? Should I trust this? What are they trying to sell me here? So that was my familiarity. I knew the world, as it were.

But I wasn't familiar with this, like, prehistory really at all by that point. But I was familiar with the anarchy, though, which, as I said, is like an inspiration for these stories. Yeah, tell us about the anarchy.

Well, a lot of this is going to sound quite familiar having watched the first season. So the anarchy is set just before and just following the death of King Henry I of England. And what happens is it starts with a shipwreck. And during that shipwreck, William, the son of Henry I, dies along with lots and lots of other noble sons. But he is the heir of Henry I of England.

England, which suddenly means that he doesn't have a male heir. He had a lot of sons, actually. He had a lot of illegitimate children, but not legitimate male heirs. And that was a problem for him. He instantly gets married, tries to have more sons unsuccessfully. But he calls back his daughter, a lady called Empress Matilda, sometimes Empress Maud, brings her back to England.

She's called Empress because she was married to Henry II, the emperor, king of the Romans. And he says that that is his heir and he makes all his nobles swear to it. That does ring a bell. Absolutely. Absolutely. And...

This might not surprise you either. Not everyone thinks this is a great idea. Like women are generally not considered fit to rule. They're considered to be impulsive. I mean, queens are really important. They have a really important and valuable role at court, but they're not monarchs, you know, ruling in their own right. Right.

Then Henry also makes a mistake because if he really wants Matilda to be his heir, what he should have done is done everything possible to make her powerful. He should have given her loads of lands in England and in Normandy because, of course, he's got a sort of like dual realm at this point and should have made her completely strong with lots of castles and lots of people. And that would have helped her enforce her rule. But he doesn't do that. And I think he's probably always hedging his bets that he might have another son and maybe he doesn't want to make his daughter too powerful just in case. So...

He dies and Matilda is in Aquitaine at the time. She's married a chap called Geoffrey. He's the Duke of Aquitaine. They're down in France, you know, on the southwest coast of France. And when Henry dies, they don't find out quickly enough, basically. And what happens is there's a chap called Stephen. It's her cousin who is a direct descendant of William the Conqueror. You know, we're getting Egon the Conqueror vibes here. And he zips across the channel,

seizes the royal treasury in Winchester, proclaims himself as king. Everyone goes, oh, well, that's a great idea. He's a descendant of the conqueror. He's male. He's also incredibly rich. He's very charismatic. He's really nice and likable. Like generally people think he's a nice guy. And the Pope basically sanctions it as well, which is really important. So he becomes king and there's not a lot Matilda can do about it to begin with.

Perhaps that would be the end of the story. But Stephen, because he is, as I said, a bit of a nice guy, he's not a great king. Ah, this sounds familiar as well. He's a great knight. He's very energetic. He's really amiable. Everyone likes him. And so what he does is he starts being really generous, which is a part of kingship. And he gives lots of people earldoms.

you know, gives them these great titles. But basically by trying to please everyone, he sort of pleases nobody in the end. And suddenly war breaks out all over the place. People are spotting division and weakness at this point. And so what happens is Matilda decides to come to England to press her claim. She, and this is important, manages...

An alliance with her stepbrother, Robert, because, of course, as I said, Henry I had lots of illegitimate sons. And Stephen, good warrior, goes down, catches up with them, and takes her prisoner. And so this really should be the end of the story. What he should do, this is what, you know, a sensible medieval king would do, although it's not very pleasant, is probably murder. Murder everybody who protected her in the castle. Sure, sure, of course. Lock her up forever. Yeah.

And that would be the end of it. But he's supposedly takes some bad advice. It might be because of his chivalric nature. He decides to let her go. And then it all starts to go wrong. And basically, you know, you then have decades of warfare. There's lots of different battles. Some go one way, some go the other. All the nobles are enjoying the chaos and starting to press their own claims for various things. There's castles popping up everywhere.

absolutely everywhere because everyone's like, oh, there's a wall. I need to, you know, secure my claim. I'm going to build a castle. There's also interesting lots of religious houses being built and some people interpret this as because there's a lot of sinning going on and they've got to stop, you know, worrying about the heavens. So I'm going to build a castle. I'm going to kill lots of people and I'm going to sponsor a religious house as well so I can go to heaven at the end of it.

And then basically what happens after many, many battles, many, many people have died. The people of England have really suffered because they're not just having battles. They're also destroying each other's lands because, you know, that's the way you run warfare in those days. You destroy the fields. You destroy the towns. You cut out their economic base. So there's people literally starving to death during this period, you know, the common people. And at this point, Henry, who's the son of Matilda, because they're still not keen on having a queen, he turns up and...

And they agree that he is going to be Stephen's heir. And Stephen dies the next year and he becomes King Henry II. And, you know, that's the ruling dynasty for several hundred years. So, sorry, I said I'd be quick. That wasn't very quick. No, that was great. You did a great job with that.

So, Charles, obviously the story of the anarchy is super complicated, but it does seem very clear that Matilda's story is kind of running parallel with Rainera's. Yes. How does the show deviate from the real history?

Well, obviously, Rhaenyra has actual male siblings to contend with, whereas, you know, Matilda doesn't. And she ends up getting replaced by her cousin, you know, who's a descendant of William the Conqueror by his mother, but not even a brother. So I think Rhaenyra's

job is that much harder and in the medieval world she really would have had a an uphill struggle unless her father had done everything possible to secure her position and maybe that's similar to the show you know like uh she's named as heir by her father in the show but does he do everything possible to secure her reign does he start like making her the most powerful lord in Westeros does he start removing all her enemies one at a time and giving all their lands to her

No, he doesn't do that. And, you know, arguably because he's slightly hedging his bets because he's got some sons waiting in the wing and, you know, he doesn't know how it's going to pan out. Maybe he just doesn't have the energy. He looks pretty tired a lot of the time, doesn't he? So maybe he just doesn't have the energy for that.

There are parallels, but there are differences. And I think Rhaenyra's task is even harder. Right, right. It's really interesting to hear you also talk about Stephen being such a nice guy and how that wasn't necessarily the best thing for a king at that point. I feel like that's something that Jason and I talked a lot about over the course of season one of House of the Dragon because Viserys...

really embodies a lot of that too, that question of like, what is it actually to be a good king in this time? I'm curious what your thoughts are about that. I mean, it's a really, really difficult job. You know, it's not a job that most people can pull off.

off. You have to be a great warrior first and foremost. That way medieval society is divided into those that work, those that pray, those that fight. You're the head of the people that fight. You need to protect everyone. And if you're not, if your borders are getting attacked, if you're not protecting people's lands and their money, people are going to complain pretty quickly. So number one, I think you need to be a really

Strong knight. You need everyone to be really scared of you all the time. They say a medieval king used to be like a roaring lion. Everybody around you should be slightly afraid of you. And Stephen was like pretty affable. People thought like he always treated people like equals. And you don't really need that.

On top of that, you need to be really organized. You need a good administration. You need to know who owes you money. And a lot of those kings were like, you know, they got a lot of things written down. So they kept really good records like Stephen's finances, royal finances, should I say, went completely to pot during Stephen's reign, partly because they were at war, but also because he wasn't administratively able or didn't hire the right people for the right jobs.

You need to be wealthy. You need to please everyone to an extent. Like you need to keep people on good terms. Your family, you need to keep on good terms. The nobility, you need to keep on good terms. You need to choose good advisors. And that's obviously a big theme of the show. Like who are your advisors? Who are you listening to?

And you need to be generous, but not too generous. You don't want to give too much away. But at the same time, and this is the other thing that a good king needs to be, he needs to be completely ruthless as well. You know, a good king, and this is a theme that we sometimes have in Westeros, obviously, a good king needs to let people take the fall for him. If he makes a bad decision, that's fine. Here's this person that I know people don't like too much.

but hasn't really done anything wrong. I'm just going to let him take the blame. And if he goes to his death, well, I'm really sorry about that, but you've done your king a good service. You know, you need to be that level of ruthless. Let people take the fall for you, which again is pretty hard. And sorry, almost forgot. You need to keep the church on side as well because they're incredibly important too. There's of course a clear divide in the show between the lives of the noble houses and the great lords and rulers and the

folk. There's a really interesting scene from season one in which, you know, we see Rhaenyra and Daemon sneak out to watch a play, some entertainment for the common people. Let's actually play that clip. So which heir might the chair bear? Who will it be? The brother, the daughter, or the little princeling of three? LAUGHTER

Rhaenyra, the realm's delight! A girl so young and so slight, loved by all of her people. But would she make a powerful queen, or would she be feeble?

For Aegon the Babe Prince might long for a claim. He has two things Rhaenyra cannot. A conqueror's name and a cock. Lie! Slut! They are just a few, but many of the small folk are like to believe that as a male, Aegon should be the heir. Their wants are of no consequence. They're of great consequence if you expect to rule them one day. Couple of things there. One, to the extent that we know,

How critical could popular entertainment of the day be of their rulers? And secondarily, like, was this actually a thing that rulers of that time cared a lot about was what the people thought? Like, to what extent did they take public opinion seriously?

into their formulations. I'm going to take the second question first, if you don't mind about like, you know, did they care? And they had to, to an extent. Basically, to really simplify the medieval world, you've got people who fight and you've got people who pray and you've got people who work. And for medieval society to be successful, all those people need to do their part.

And so if the monarch is not being seen to doing their part as the head of the people who fight, they're not protecting their people, they're not caring about the dynasty, they're not securing their future, then they do have a problem because that will trickle down through society. So to an extent, they really do need to care. This idea about, you know, how accurate is this portrayal? Well, you know, theatre was incredibly popular in different forms throughout the medieval period. It's a really interesting topic. They had lots of religious plays. This is obviously not an example of that. LAUGHTER

They had things called mummings or disguisings where people were doing masked theatre. And at court, there would have been storytellers, jugglers, musicians. So entertainment is a big part of life.

Now, whether it would be that sort of like super contemporary, outwit, satirical criticism, I don't know. I'm a little bit skeptical, especially in a capital like this, because, you know, on the one hand, you know, the penalties would probably be pretty severe. But also on a pragmatic level, these entertainers, they're reliant on sponsorship and patronage.

And ideally, they want to end up at the court performing there. And that's not going to happen if they're known for being really subversive. The clip that we've just heard clearly is not ambiguous. And I think these people would be very brave to do something that bold because they're clearly making their feelings known. And if it were known that they'd done this, you know, I imagine they could be in an awful lot of trouble. Yeah, slander. And not getting the gig as well. Right, right.

The battles that would take place during the anarchy, how big would the armies be? Where would the soldiers come from? How would they unfold? How bloody were they?

I mean, they were pretty horrendous. I mean, you can imagine the noise would have been pretty horrendous. You know, these are people clad in mail and later in the medieval period, like plate armor as well. There would have been trumpets and drums and all these things that we associate with medieval battles, but they would have been attacking each other with swords and spears and shields and axes and

still at this point as well. So pretty terrifying, pretty bloody. As I said, the rules of battle meant that, you know, if you're a noble, you had a fairly reasonable chance of surviving that battle because of your armor and your training and your weaponry and your entourage. If you were poor, much less so. Incredibly bloody. Some of them are quite small battles, you know, skirmishes really, you know, later in the hundred years war, you do have sort of thousands of people meeting on the battlefield, but a lot of the earlier battles were a little bit smaller.

but terrifying is the answer pretty horrendous if things went wrong you know there wasn't a lot of medicine to look after you afterwards also we know from like archaeology that you know a lot of these people especially during the hundred years war they were fighting multiple battles as well so you know there were skeletons found on the battlefields like Towton during the hundred years war where you know you could see that they'd had several wounds and they'd healed at some point so these people are fighting multiple battles as well which

is pretty scary. But also, these battle would have been absolutely terrifying for the local population as well. They're having their fields burnt, their houses burnt. And afterwards, you know, they're dealing with absolute devastation. And all these armies are sucking up all the food in the environment as well. So very bad for the poor fighting the battle. Very bad for all the people that lived anywhere near the battle as well. And pretty scary for anyone involved, really. That sounds horrifying. Yeah, absolutely horrifying. Yeah.

Well, it's wild even thinking about the jousting tournament we see in season one of House of the Dragon, because even that is like, yes, it's fun and ornate, but it's also like pretty gruesome.

Oh, yeah. I mean, that's a pretty scary scene, isn't it, when they start with the joust. And, you know, jousts were pretty scary. Jousts are incredibly popular from the sort of like, you know, we get lots of references to them from the 12th century onwards. They happened a lot in France. And, you know, there's a sense that they came to England because there was a sense that French knights were better on their horses. They were better. And probably the reason for that was because they were having these tournaments when they were practicing. That's one sort of like theory of how jousting evolved in England. But, yeah.

Jousting, as you see, looks pretty scary. But believe it or not, it actually gets safer as the years go on. So in the 13th century, they have something called the melee, which is basically just a fight. I turn up with 50 men, you turn up with 50 men, and we're going to try...

We're going to try not to kill each other, but people are going to die. Wow. Especially the poorer people. That's what a tournament or a melee would look like in the 13th century. And popes tried to ban this. They were like, this is terrible. Kings didn't like it either because it gave nobles an excuse to meet up. And you don't really want your angry, violent nobles to be meeting up without you. So, you know, it's very much frowned on. But then through history...

It's always dangerous. But, you know, it starts to become a bit more formulaic, a little bit safer. They start to introduce safety measures, like when they're jousting against each other, they introduce the tilt. That's that wooden barrier down the middle. They didn't used to have that. So horses used to routinely crash into each other and they would die. But when they introduce that, that's a little bit safer. They also have something called fighting at the barriers, I think it's called, where literally we fight over a fence. We're wearing armor. I've got an axe. You've got an axe. We hit each other over the head over a fence. And, you know, whoever falls down first wins.

loses. But that's still safer than a melee where you're like on a battlefield, there's horses charging around the place. You're in a muddy field and everything's going wrong. And also you start to get things like, you know, the music and the pageantry and the entertainments associated with it. You know, the heraldry, of course, as well. But it's always dangerous. Famously, King Henry II of France...

he dies from an infection after a battle. Basically, a lance splinters and goes into his eye. He's not killed instantly, but he dies shortly afterward from an infection. And, you know, and that's the king of France. So, you know, it's still dangerous even when they start to make things a bit safer. You're not making it sound good, Charles. But,

But as I said, you know, they also loved it. There was a lot of romance around this, a lot of ideas of chivalry. People like, you know, William Marshall made their name from fighting these tournaments and everyone knew that he was great because of it. So, you know, there are advantages. Also, while you say this isn't great...

Medieval nobles loved fighting. That's their natural state. That's a generalization. Obviously, a lot of them didn't. But generally, these are people who love fighting. They wanted an excuse. If there hadn't been a war for a while, you know, they were looking for one. And so, you know, an excuse to go and practice how good they are at riding and killing people is great for them. Some of them, anyway.

Okay. As I said, a generalization. Fair enough. Well, Charles, thank you so much for joining us. It's been a really fascinating conversation. Yes, thank you. Oh, well, you're very welcome. And thanks very much for having me here.

I kind of want to get Charles on text and just like be able to group chat with him while watching every single episode. What a fascinating guy. You know, it's funny. I normally hate a group chat, but I feel like that would be perfect for it. Because, yeah, he's so charming and hilarious also. And such good insights, too. I wanted it to go on and on. Totally. So one thing that Charles said that really stuck with me was how there are sort of like only a few set rules that people in the medieval world could have. Remember this? He says people who fight...

And then you have people who pray, and then you have people who work. I wonder, does that feel reflective of Westeros to you, too? To an extent. There is a...

There's another group, like the people who do science and take down history, the maesters and stuff. I think in the real world, that would have been a job done by scribes working for the people who pray, to use his term. But basically, yeah, that feels like the groupings. Either you're working in the fields, you're working a lord's farms, their job is to fight when called upon. And

And then you have the various religions, namely the seven, and then you have the maesters who are...

basically praying and or doing scholarly work. So yeah, it feels like George really based that delineation on history. Maybe we should expand it out and have it be people who fight, people who read books, and people who work. What do you think? Yeah, that sounds great to me. Which of those people would you want to be? I mean, I think that's super obvious. I'm for sure going all in on the books, like a thousand percent. I mean, same for you, right? Yeah.

A hundred million thousand percent. Like, what would it take to get me there? Get me to the book place because I don't want to do any of the other stuff. And by the way, the book place doesn't look that much better either, but at least I'm not like doing backbreaking labor or risking getting my head cut off. Yes. Especially for like us on the nerdy end of the spectrum. Like it's a pretty obvious choice for sure. But here's a question. Like if you, if you had to pick,

Any character from either Game of Thrones or House of the Dragon to be, who would you choose? Oh, gosh. I think Samuel Tarly had a nice run and found his calling, which I don't think is a thing that you can really hope for in this world. He's kind of a bookish gentleman. Yeah. Of course, his family sent him away legitimately because he wasn't

Like military enough. He wasn't enough of a courageous killer. And so was given the choice of either having his being murdered and having his death executed.

framed as like a hunting accident or going off and taking the black. And then from there, though, that didn't quite suit him. He did manage to find his way to the Citadel, the Maesters, and I think that fit him quite well. What about you? Sam Tarly is a really good one. I think I always really admired, especially from Game of Thrones, like your Arya Stark, but really unpacking that and thinking about like...

child murderous, like generational trauma. There's a lot to unpack there that I would not sign up for. So yeah, I don't know. The more I think about it, the more I think I really would just choose like none. Like, you know, SEPTA, let's do that.

Corinna, what do you find appealing about potentially being a septa? I think part of it actually comes from having read a book a couple years ago called Matrix by Lauren Groff, which is a novel that takes place, I think, a little earlier. I think it's in like the...

the thousands. It's Eleanor of Aquitaine time. And it's from the point of view of this woman who essentially is like unfit to marry. And so she gets sent to a convent and turns out there's a lot of lesbians there and they just get to like read books and grow stuff. And it's like,

Sounds pretty great.

So that is largely what is influencing my decision on that one. Scepta sounds great. Now, let's say that you were born into one of these noble families. What do you think you'd be like? It's interesting reflecting back on season one and thinking about, like, I mean, they're marrying off girls at age 12, you know? Like, how do you even have a chance to really have a personality when...

especially if you're a woman, your role is child bearer. And that's so dangerous. And that's kind of all you get, you know? So...

I don't know. It sounds just like impossibly difficult pretty much on every level, I would say. Especially, I think it's interesting watching the show because so much about season one, and I'm sure season two will be as well, is about like the burden of the throne and like how heavy the crown sits. Yeah. Of course, there are aspects of life that are much easier if you live in a castle, but also, but also, but also, you know? You know, I was thinking what, you know, what would be the hardest part of living in this world is,

And there's a million different answers. But to me, I think it comes down to touching on something you just said, which is the aspect of duty where you're born into a role and that's it. You fulfill your role. There's no...

horizontal or vertical mobility. There's no opportunity to jump from kind of one role to the next. We watch it happen in Game of Thrones and in season one of House of the Dragon. You know, you see people try to do it, but they're mostly unsuccessful. And I would think that just must be frustrating is not even the word. It's tragic in a lot of ways. And I think a lot of the drama that we see, particularly over the

seasons of Game of Thrones is people just desperate to escape this one thing that they've been born into that they can't ever escape and no one will ever look at them in any kind of different way. I think you especially see it in kind of the higher classes in this world, just because it's like, if you are born heir to the throne, that's what you're stuck doing. And we see that so clearly, especially with Aegon, I think, in terms of

I mean, I guess there's a little more ambiguity around heir to the throne, but he very clearly does not want to be king. And by the end of season one, he very much is king. Do you end up having any sympathy for him given that? You know, Aegon is a terrible person. I think there's his parents...

bear a lot of responsibility for that. I do have some sympathy for him because it's an impossible situation. You know, he wanted more love and affection from his parents and family. And really what they had for him was this kind of like iron clad definition of duty there. I mean, they were telling him from a incredibly young age that like the entire Hope's

and safety and future well-being of the family and indeed the country. Rest on your shoulders, young man. Yeah. That's terrifying. So in that sense, yeah, I do feel bad for him. What about you? Well, you're right that he's a terrible person. It is interesting to reflect on like, it's not just telling him either. It was like grabbing him by the shoulders and shaking him. Yep.

But I don't know. I mean, I think it's an interesting question because I think you can also extend it to Rhaenyra. And I think I have a lot of empathy for her in the sense that, like, she's told she has to have this role. There's very little question even of whether she wants it at this point, but she's literally lost children because of it at this point. And the fact that people don't even have faith in her to do it is just devastating. Yeah.

You know who I feel kind of bad for also is Amon, Amon One-Eye, who clearly would be the better brother to be doing this. Yes, yes. He's the one who takes it seriously, is reading the histories, is studying politics, is paying attention in meetings.

And it must be tremendously frustrating to be him. Yeah, that's another one where it's like, oh, yeah, no, you're not firstborn, so you're out. Nobody apparently could call an audible and go, actually, this guy's the better one. Family meeting? Let's do this one. How about the one that reads?

It's interesting thinking about someone like Rayneese because it does seem like she sort of found a sweet spot. And it's weird to say that because she definitely got like completely looked over. Yes. Came to ruling. But it seems like once she was rejected for that, like she still got to have a fair amount of comfort in her life. She loves and respects her husband who also loves and respects her. I do wonder, like I think it wouldn't be terrible to be Rayneese at this point.

I agree. And we talked about this in season one of the pod, but I think Corliss and Rhaenys are maybe my favorite characters of season one. Yeah. And their dynamic is so interesting because to your point, Rhaenys was looked over, but also had come to a place where she was like, I've come to terms with it. That's what this world is.

Maybe I got my hopes up and they were dashed and maybe I was naive about that. But of course, could it have ended any other way? And it's so interesting because Corliss is the one who's like very, very angry on her behalf when she's like, stop enough. Yeah, it's fine. It's fine.

So, yeah, I think it would be useful for us in this episode to kind of go through which houses and lords on the show are going to back Rhaenyra this season and who will back Aegon. Oh, wow. Because, of course, at the end of season one, we saw Rhaenyra send her sons off to try to win over three houses, the Baratheons, the Arryns, and the Starks. Hmm.

I think we should go over the houses on the board right now and who is on which side. Let's start with the easy ones, right? We've got House Hightower. Otto Hightower has the family very, very deeply, deeply invested in Team Green. And I think that's

clearly unshakable and not going anywhere. Yes, clearly was also the word I was going to use. Another pretty obvious one, House Valarion is for sure team black. There was a little bit of question about that, but Rhaenys put her foot down, and that's pretty clear at this point, too. Okay, now we come to the strongly in one camp, but...

with maybe a question mark, House Lannister. So, you know, we saw that Tylan Lannister was in the small council and was part of the deliberations in the wake of King Viserys's death and, you know, watched our good friend, the bees, Lord Lyman Beesbury, get murdered when he dared raise an objection. So you would imagine he's pretty pot committed team green, but they are Lannisters after all. Exactly. I was going to say, you can never count on a Lannister that way. Okay. House Strong. What do you think?

I think probably from here on out, it's just a lot of TBDs, right? I mean, how strong is a really interesting one, because if we're actually acknowledging what our situation is, we've got some strong boys that are on Team Black. So you'd think they were Team Black. But also, I don't know. I could see them also being pretty bummed by the whole situation at this point, just kind of opting out. Yeah, I think Laris will probably have the family...

solidly team green, but also I think much like the Lannisters, I think what we know about Laris is he will do what's best for Laris when the time comes to do the best thing for him. So we'll see. Yep. House Baratheon, you mentioned poor Luke and Arax were on a diplomatic mission to Storm's End. Yeah.

And it seems pretty clear that Hasparathian was at least very, very strongly leaning team green. Do you think they might come out of that?

That is a great question. I guess we will just have to see. Do you have any special hypotheses about that one? I don't, but I do think it's a little surprising, but it also feels like, you know, it's nice to be wanted, and I think Team Green made them feel wanted. How stark? We haven't seen much of, but I think we'll see more of this season. The Starks are the good guys because they do what they say, and they keep their word as a family, and I think...

it is quite reasonable to assume that they'll say, well, I promised this, so I'm going to do it. What's your read on House Tully? Ah, the Tullys. So...

The thing about the Tullys... We haven't seen them much at all in season one. We have not seen them much at all. Riverlands houses, we've only seen a little bit. The thing about the Riverlands is they're in the middle of the continent. So whenever there's a war, it always seems to happen there. TBD, but I would imagine that we're going to be meeting a lot of

members of the Riverlands very soon because everything that happens is going to be of keen interest to them because it's probably going to be their lands, their people, their castles getting destroyed. That's a really interesting point. To that end, do you think they would want to side with the team that has more dragons or not? Because that just means more destruction on their territory.

I think they will side with the side that gets there first with the dragons. Interesting. Okay. Another house we haven't seen much of is House Aaron. What's your read on that? I think they have a lot of reason to not like Damon.

Good point. Yeah, we have seen enough of them to know that, haven't we? They have a lot of reasons to not like Damon because he was married to Rhea Royce, who we saw in season one, and the Royces of Runestone who live in the Vale that's ruled by the House of Arryn. They're one of the very notable families of the Vale. And then, of course, Damon not only never went to see his wife, but then the only time he did go to see her, he killed her. Yeah. And he murdered her. Yeah, perfect.

Pretty, pretty terribly. So another TBD, but they do have a lot of reason to not like him. Yeah. Yeah. That's a lot of reason.

If you were either Rhaenyra or Aegon, what would you do to unite the realm at this point? Wow, it's so hard because of the blood that has been spilled. Yeah. Rhaenyra, I don't know how she comes down off of this because she's already had the militant wing of her movement be agitating for war and now her child is dead. So I don't...

I honestly don't know what she does. What do you think? How would you bring peace? I don't know. My thought was to go kind of like Oprah with it and just give everybody cars. You get a dragon egg and you get a dragon egg and you get a dragon egg. Well, that was so much fun, Greta. And I have to say, thank the gods we don't live in Westeros. Yeah, no, like a hundred million thousand percent for sure.

So that is it for today's podcast. Thank you all for listening. I am sure it is marked on your calendars already, but House of the Dragon season two premieres on Sunday, June 16th on HBO and Max. And we have one more pre-premiere episode next week. And we are going to be welcoming back to the podcast showrunner Ryan Condal.

We're gonna try to grill him on everything that is to come in season two. - If you like what you're hearing, don't forget to leave a five star rating and review on your podcast player of choice.

and find us on the Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon social media handles. You can find me @netw3rk on X and Instagram. And you can find me @GretaMJohnson. The official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon, is produced by HBO in collaboration with Pineapple Street Studios. This podcast is hosted by Jason Concepcion. And Greta Johnson. Our executive producers for Pineapple Street are Gabrielle Lewis,

Jay-Ann Barry, and Barry Finkel. Our lead engineer for the show is Hannes Braun, and Hannes also mixed this episode. Pineapple's head of sound and engineering is Raj Makija.

Pineapple's senior audio engineers are Marina Pais and Pedro Alvira. This episode was edited by Darby Maloney with fact-checking by Melissa Akiko Slaughter. And our producers are Ben Goldberg, Elliot Adler, and my lovely co-host, Jason Concepcion. Special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt, Allison Cohen, Kenya Reyes, Savon Slater, and Aaron Kelly from the Max Podcast team. Thanks for listening. I'll see you next week.