Ep. 3: The Burning Mill (with Bethany Antonia and director Geeta Vasant Patel)
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If you are successful, well, when you are successful, what then? We march on King's Landing and take the throne. The throne? It's a big chair made of swords.

Welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon. I'm Jason Concepcion. And I'm Greta Johnson, and war in Westeros is feeling more inevitable than ever. People in the Riverlands have picked sides, and it is getting ugly. Today we're going to get into all of that as we unpack the third episode of season two, titled...

the burning mill written by David Hancock and directed by Gita Vasant Patel. And Gita will actually be joining us on the podcast today, which I am super excited for. And we will also be talking with Bethany Antonia, who plays the wonderful Bela Targaryen. But first, let's get into the episode. And yes, there are spoilers. We're going to be talking about everything that happens in episode three. You have been warned. Alicent is in King's Landing. Her son sits my throne.

There is nothing more to be said. Okay, Jason, you want to give us a quick recap of season two, episode three? Sure. We go to the Riverlands, where the centuries-long feud between the Brackens sworn to Aegon and the Blackwoods sworn to Rhaenyra reignites, resulting in thousands, it appears, of deaths. On Dragonstone, Rhaenys counsels Rhaenyra to move quickly to make peace when she mentions a surprising possible ally, Alicent.

In King's Landing, Christopher Cole is, I don't know, I think shitting his pants a little bit. First day on the job as Hand of the King. And it seems like no one thinks he's up to it except maybe King Aegon. And that includes Cole, who seems like he's quite anxious about the whole thing. Aegon is thrilled at the news out of the Riverlands.

He claims the Battle of the Burning Mill as a green victory, but now the region is in chaos and needs to be brought under control. Cole suggests riding out of King's Landing with their own force to take Harrenhal and the Riverlands. Sir Gawain Hightower, Alicent's high-handed brother, attaches himself to Cole's army. Christopher is annoyed at this, but what can he really do? He asks for Alicent's favor, a.k.a. her breast napkin, which she grants to him...

And off they go. Aegon recruits Larys to be his master of whispers, while on Dragonstone, Rhaenyra gets closer to Mysaria, while most of her council is eager to send dragons out to war. Except Rhaenys, of course, because Rhaenys is level-headed. The queen then decides to send her youngest children, Joffrey, Aegon, and Viserys, to Jeyne Arryn in the Vale in exchange for her support. They're bringing a dragon. She asks Rhaena to accompany them. Rhaena

doesn't want to leave the fight, but agrees, and she brings four dragon eggs with her to safeguard. Daemon flies to Harrenhal alone in the pouring rain and seizes it for Team Black. That was easy! Plus, in Harrenhal, Daemon has a strange dream or a vision or something, and

And he comes to and there's a mysterious woman telling him that he will die in this place. Great energy, good vibes. In the Riverlands, Bela, a bored Moondancer, spots Cole and Sir Gawain. She gives chase and maybe gets a little closer than Rhaenyra would have liked, but then returns to Dragonstone to report that the Greens are on the move.

This is the thing that Rhaenyra needs to finally, I guess, get into motion. She reads Alicent's letter that was sent in the wake of Luke's death, and she finds that Alicent was surprisingly remorseful at Luke's death. Rhaenyra, with Mysaria's help, hatches a Hail Mary plan to avert all-out war. She sneaks into King's Landing by boat, disguised as a scepter, and proposes peace.

Alicent is shocked, but eventually says it's gone too far. It's too late. But Alicent is surprised to learn that the thing that she heard Viserys say in his final moments about Aegon and the prince that was promised was a reference to Aegon the Conqueror, not her son. So we open with the Battle of the Burning Mill and...

the long-running feud between the Brackens and the Blackwoods, who are this world's Hatfields and the McCoys. Let's play the clip. This is our land. It's Brackenland. Babe killer. What did you say? Your false queen Rhaenyra is a kinslayer. Your uncle declared for Aegon, did he? Well then.

And then we smash cut to the results of the Battle of the Burning Mill, which looked like it went badly for both sides. This was definitely one of those cold opens where I was sort of like, oh, I bet Jason knows a lot more about who these characters are than I am piecing together right now. But I have to say, in general, this was my favorite episode so far this season. And I think partly, or maybe largely, that is because of the pacing of the storytelling in this episode. And I think this battle is a really great example of that because...

I think there totally could have been a version of this where there were like four episodes leading up of like increasing ratcheted tension. And then we see the very gruesome battle and it's like, it's half the season right there, as opposed to this cut where the devastation is there. We've seen what we need to see and we're moving along with the story. I thought that was so well done. I liked it as well. And I liked it from a thematic point of view, because while it's,

The leaders in King's Landing and on Dragonstone are sending letters and making moves and trying to figure out where to place their forces and who will ally with them. It's already happened. The war has already started without them.

So this whole thing is just a train wreck. It's out of control. And both sides now are trying to impose some measure of authority over a thing that's happened without them. Yeah, I think, too, that idea of sort of like, how do you navigate the aftermath of this stuff was very clearly, like, symbolically wrought. Not only with that scene, but also with our next one, which is the Cargill funeral. Rhaenyra and Rhaenys have...

a very long-awaited conversation. Let's hear it. Otto Hightower would never have allowed this. Hotter blood has prevailed, I think. The young men have taken the bit in their teeth they wish to punish, to avenge. Soon they will not even remember what it was that began the war in the first place. That is easy enough. They usurped my throne. That is one answer. Or was it when the child was beheaded? Or when Aemond killed Luke? Or when Luke took Aemond's eye?

We teeter now at the point where none of it will matter. Rhaenys speaking facts. And I, this was the best Rhaenys episode. My favorite character in the show, I think. And just someone that Rhaenyra needs to listen to. I think I almost want Rhaenys to say to Rhaenyra, okay, what is the version of this that you could live with? I understand they took the throne. We get it. Aegon's sitting there. He shouldn't be there. Everybody did this behind your back.

The lords were promised to you and they switched their allegiances and that's unfair. But how do we get out of this? Because they're there and they're not moving. So what do we do? Let's think outside the box, Rhaenyra.

Well, also, what better character is there to say that to her, given that she herself has been let down in such a similar way, right? Completely agree. She has that moral authority of, like, I've been here. I've been exactly your place. Yeah. I think also going back, rehashing, like, did it start here? Or did it start here? Or did it start here? The fact that this has been a very long time coming. And as we've discussed many times, like, there were so many moments of no return. Yeah.

Yeah. It's nice to see Rhaenys not just on patrol duty. I think we need to get somebody else to be flying over the gullet, keeping watch, because we need Rhaenys at the table. Yes. And we get her at the table in this episode. I think that's also partly why I liked it so much, because it was like, oh, thank God. Like, at least they're starting to kind of get some things in order. Yeah.

Let's talk about Damon, who arrives at Harrenhal in this episode. And it also appears that Damon was absolutely correct that they should have gone to Harrenhal earlier because it was quite lightly held. I mean, that was like candy from a baby. I'm claiming Harrenhal. Apparently so. Peas from a baby. Yes, just...

Yeah, no, that was wild. I also just have to say, very briefly, seeing anyone flying a dragon in the rain just really stresses me out. I just don't think they should be doing it. It's too dangerous. It's a bad idea. I just loved the visuals. It was so epic in scope, and you really got a feel for the size of it.

Of Heron's shoulders? Oh, yeah. Yes! He looked like he was... He looked like a linebacker. That armor! The size of Heron Hall and the state of it, you know, it is in...

Very, very poor condition. Yeah, I was shocked by that. I guess I've been thinking of it more as like a strategic stronghold and not like a shithole. So I was really surprised. I was like, oh, there's like active leaking everywhere. It's like seven people live here. You know, it's like, oh, this is a mess. Yeah, we've got a maintenance request out for that. Yes.

It's mentioned by Sir Simon Strong, the castellan of Harrenhal, that the castle is in disrepair because Aegon the Conqueror melted it around its previous owner when he was conquering the place. So it's never really been fixed up because it took...

a tremendous time to build and it was very expensive and any kind of repair on it will be equally expensive and nobody wants to do it nobody really wants to spend the money on it plus because it's cursed everybody who lives there and starts thinking about maybe i should fix this place up has some tragedy befall them like being set on fire probably by a family member for example if you've not yet surmised you are welcome here and what of your lord

Larys Strong, hmm? He who sits at the false court of Aegon. Larys Clubfoot is no lord of mine. He's a scourge upon this castle and this family. Do you not think it strange that his father, my nephew, Lord Lionel, perished by fire? And his son too. Here, in this damp place. It was the first fire here since Balerion ended the line of Harren the Black.

Even in summer, we struggle to light the hearths. So no, you will find no loyalty to Larys Strong here, my prince. Your Grace. Forgive me, I'd only assume that as consul... And we are reminded of the perilousness of assumption. Indeed. Your Grace. Okay, so Jason, can you explain that whole Your Grace, my prince situation? Sure.

In theory, if Rhaenyra is queen, Daemon is merely the king consort, meaning he would be king, but not with any kind of portfolio or authority. As Alicent was his queen, essentially. Yeah. Correct. So here, Simon is essentially assuming that that's the case, but Daemon appears to be taking more authority for himself than I think...

Certainly Rhaenyra presumes that he might take, and this was a worry of hers and as a worry of everybody that knows Daemon, that he might seize more power for himself. That's his ambition. And it certainly appears with this move and this titling that that is the case, that he considers himself co-equal ruler with Rhaenyra or even the ruler. Troubling. I would say that it's quite troubling. Yeah.

I was fascinated to learn that it's quite openly assumed that Larys killed Lord Lionel and Harwin. Were you surprised by that? I was surprised by that, but I thought that line about them catching fire in a place as damp as this was pretty funny. And, I mean, it makes

sense then, of course, that they would align themselves with Team Black. But I can't help but wonder, like, do you think if Team Green had gotten there sooner, they would have... It's not like they put up much of a fight. It's not like they can put up much of a fight. That is my sense as well, is whoever's there is who Simon Strong will pledge Heron Hall's allegiance to, because...

I mean, no one's eager to fight a dragon, but it was one guy. And no one really tried to stop him. One guard kind of did. So you get the feeling that this place is up for grabs regardless. Can we play the clip of Damon and his very spooky vision? Ooh, yeah. Let's do that. Oh, he's coming and going, aren't you? And I have to clean up afterwards. Yeah, creepy. If you perceive this as a dream...

and not a vision that is projected upon Damon, then I think it strangely puts him in a kind of positive light in that it would seem as if he has some kind of self-awareness, a feeling of guilt at the events that he put in motion with regards to the murder of Prince Jaehaerys, and at least an understanding of the way that he is perceived as a person who's unreliable, who...

in the words of this vision of young Rhaenyra, just creates messes that other people clean up because he won't be there. What do you think's going on there? I guess my interpretation of it was that it was just all Harrenhal. Like the fact that he's there and it's just like a deeply...

And it's more like the fact that he is there as opposed to him potentially having visions. I mean, he is a Targaryen. I know there's precedent for that. So it is interesting to consider that.

And he himself is obviously deeply haunted too. Meanwhile, there is some conflict going on at the Greensmall Council. Should we jump over to King's Landing and talk about Kristen Cole's first days as the Hand of the Kings? Chris Cole. Let's play a clip. The Riverlands are the key to the war. Harrenhal is the key to the Riverlands.

I will ride out with those I can muster here. Men I know, men I've trained. You need time to raise the numbers to challenge the Rivermen. Speed is my ally. I will turn the Crown Land Houses who declared for Rhaenyra to our cause. We will add their numbers to our own and then turn west, where I will enlist the Brackens, subdue the Riverlands, and take Harrenhal. So impatient to ride with so few men.

So like to be destroyed by the first stronghold you meet. Bold scheme indeed. Oh, the gods favor the bold. They did not favor Sir Eric. I just want to say, I hate Chris Cole, okay? But I love the dynamic between him and Allison in public where they just bicker. It's just like they want to be back in Allison's chambers having a vigorous, bottomless brunch. Yeah.

But they can't. No. And they're mad. And they're mad about it. So all they do is just like, oh, yeah, nice job with Sir Eric. He's dead. Just go off rashly, send him off if he's dead. Oh, yeah? Well, I didn't see anybody else saying anything. It's like, guys, cool it down. So I'm curious to hear what you think of this plan because –

At least based on last episode, I don't think Kristen Cole is our best schemer. No, I don't. This doesn't seem like the best plan to me. I also wonder how much of it is like him just dreading this job and being like, I need to get the fuck out of here. Yeah, I think that Kristen Cole is a soldier. Yeah. And to him, every solution is...

Let's fight. You know, I think that that's his worldview. That said, I think having seen the state of the Riverlands...

I think it could work. I think the mistake would be, as everyone seems to notice, except for Aegon, let's not send the king into this. But considering the chaotic state of the Riverlands, considering the weakhold that Lord Tully has on the region in general, considering the fact that fighting is already taking place actively there, and that there are at least two green armies converging on the Riverlands, plus...

Cole's proposed force to head out and the fact that the you know, Heron Hall is held by basically one guy, Damon with a dragon. Yes, but with no real army to speak about. Right. I think that this can work.

How often, I was trying to think of precedent of like sending your hand away. And I mean, I guess we got that very briefly in season one of House of the Dragon when Otto goes to Dragonstone, but that didn't even go that well. Yeah, it's not unheard of. In later years...

When the Mad King was the ruler, his hand, Tywin Lannister, was very active and was, in fact, thought to be running things directly. So it's certainly not unprecedented. That said, if Aegon's going to stay in the capital, which is the case, you definitely want good advisors around him. Now, you could say that's Alicent. Sure. I'd certainly...

trust Alison more than I would trust Chris Cole in that role right now. Yeah. What'd you think of Christopher's chair gripping, staring off into the middle distance before he went into the small council chamber? How'd you read that?

He is in way over his head and he's super stressed out about it. I mean, even him being late to that meeting is like he cannot wrap his head around the insane level of power he has just been granted by like an extremely irresponsible king. And I don't know if he's even thinking about it that hard because I'm not sure that he can. Yeah, it really just seemed like, oh no, oh God, oh God, I have to go in there and I have to say things and I have to act like the hand of the king. And I thought it was...

Very interesting the way everyone else was reacting to him, like the new Kingsguard and the people that he was until the day previously was in charge of directly as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

It's like when a friend gets promoted and now the dynamic is different at work because they're a boss. Everybody's looking at him like, oh, now you're a boss? And he, I didn't ask for this. I didn't ask for this. I don't know how to act right now. Yeah.

I do want to talk about the scene when they're about to take off because I think there are two noteworthy things in that. One is... More bickering between... Yeah, more bickering between Allison and Cole. The bickering is really good. But also we meet Allison's bro. Gawain. Yeah. Gawain Hightower. How did you read his arrogance towards Cole? Clearly wanted to put Cole in his place by reminding him, oh...

What an incredible come-up story for a young man like yourself. Still mud on your boots, huh? It's a good window into...

how people probably view Christopher Cole, particularly people of noble birth, and how Cole views himself as this guy that nobody believes in because he didn't come from a family that anybody cares about. Totally. Speaking of people coming from Old Town, did you catch the reference to Alicent's other son, unseen up to this point, with Viserys, Aegon's younger brother, Daeron, aka Daeron the Daring, who's been living at Old Town this whole time? Jason, to be completely honest, I had...

completely forgotten about him until in episode two of this season, we get Otto when he's about to leave and he's like, fine, I'll go hang out with Darren in Old Town. So I assume we will be hearing more from him in this season. What did you think of Aegon's reaction to seeing Aemond with Madame Sylvie? I thought it was terrible. I also feel like it was... I mean, we know we can't trust Aegon to make the best decisions, but you would think...

If you're worried about your younger brother with a very powerful dragon who's like obviously actually a better warrior than you are trying to overtake the throne, don't you think that you would not be an asshole to him and push him farther away? It's a great point and I think it speaks to the complete disregard that he has for Aemond as any kind of threat to him, option to him in anyone's eyes. I think he maybe fairly thinks that

The family has gone through so much to put me on this throne. Nobody is thinking about Aemond. They're not thinking about him. It was really bad. I mean, it's just like petty and mean, which is not actual power. For sure. It was like a return to their...

Yes.

And I thought it was really sad the way Amon had to put up that wall and pretend like, I don't actually care about this woman. Yes, he had to put up that wall. And he also didn't even let himself get angry. I mean, he really just, like, removed himself from the situation. What did you make of the story from the...

perhaps apocryphal tale told by this bar goer who's like, oh yeah, well, I'm the son of Baelon the Brave. My grandfather was King Jaehaerys, the conciliator. And we hear this word dragon seed. What did you make of that?

It's not often that you get a character like that in this franchise, I feel like, where they just kind of walk in and they're like, I could be a pivotal part of this entire story and you've never met me before. It means potentially another Dragonrider, right? I think it could mean that. It's also...

A really wonderful window into the way information travels in this world. This is just hearsay. I know a guy who said he saw something, who heard something, who has a story, and maybe this is true. The way he presents this story is as if he has some special...

into current events. Like, it's not just that he says, well, you know, my dad was Bale on the Brave. Bastard brother. Bastard son. Yeah, yeah. It's more like, and they still pick up the phone when I call, which is very interesting. Right, right. I got one nephew on the throne. I got another nephew who's the right player. Very lucky for him that that was not overheard by anybody. That timing, yeah. Uncanny. Yeah.

But yeah, I'm very curious about that gentleman. I guess we'll see what happens. Before we leave King's Landing, let's talk about the conversation between Alicent and Helena, which I thought was really evocative. That horrid procession where the small vocals stared at me. I warrant they thought I had no more right to grief than they do. Surely they lose their babes more than highborn ladies. The stranger comes for us all. Queen and commoner, you have as much claim to grief as anyone.

You? I love Jairus, but my concern has been more for you and what you've endured. Helena. I forgive you. What? I said that I forgive you. A very interesting scene. I read that as Helena saying, I forgive you for having brunch with Sir Christian Cole. I don't know what she's forgiving her for, and I think that

I think the fact that there are so many likely suspects for forgiveness is really interesting. It could be that. I thought of that as well. It could be that Allison is partly responsible for the series of events that led to her son, Jaharis's murder. It could be any number of things that haven't happened yet. It's really, really interesting. But clearly, Allison was shocked.

and surprised by that. And it really seemed to hit her on a very, very deep level to hear this. I think that Alison is carrying a lot of guilt for a lot of things going all the way back to her relationship with Viserys and the way that started. Totally. What did you make of Helena's speech about grief in general?

I thought it was heartbreaking. I mean, just thinking back to that idea of like, you can't show grief now, but you definitely have to when we put you on a carriage behind your dead kid and you have to tour around town to show everyone how upset you are. Yeah. Yeah.

I think the way this conversation ends too with the forgiveness, the way that Alison says, well, I'm thinking about you, Helena, and I'm here for you if you need. And she just immediately with that, forgive you. It's such a power switch too, where all of a sudden-

It's the child who becomes the person comforting the parent. Totally. Let's talk about Team Black over in Dragonstone. The Black Council is trying to get the engine started on the war, but there are problems. And a bunch of guys just trying to tell Rhaenyra what to do. Your Grace, you have witnessed firsthand just how vulnerable you are.

Prince Daemon is abroad and Aegon's factions are enraged at the death of his son. You have never been so exposed. Perhaps it is time for you to think about secreting yourself somewhere safe while we remain here as a source of distraction for the enemy. He proposed to conduct the war in my absence. It would merely be a precaution. It would be treason. Oof. I was shocked just to see people at her council like laughing at the queen. That can't happen.

Yeah, no, they seemed so disdainful of her, too. That idea of like, why don't you just go hide and we'll deal with it? It's like, I'm sorry, what? Yeah, that is not good. And it's such a perilous situation because, you know, I think as we have talked at length about, part of the mistake of Viserys in his reign was not...

doing the thing that he said he would do when people crossed a red line. And here is Rhaenyra kind of facing that. Like, I think she needs to meet this kind of disrespect to her authority and

very strongly or this whole project is lost. That said, she also needs every lord and every sword at their command and can't just start throwing people in the dungeon. So she is in a trap right now. She is in a very, very dangerous place where she has to do something. She can't do the thing that they're asking for, at least not yet. I think that's a fair read. And she has to bring her

followers in line, but she can't do it too strongly or she will lose them. Very dangerous. What did you make of this? I really liked the moment shortly after that when Rhaenyra leaves and Rhaenys is like, listen, motherfuckers, y'all need to get in line. I thought that was exciting, partly because, you know, as we talked about even in the last episode, like, Rhaenys is obviously an asset, and to have her just on the dragon side

doing her thing in the sky is like not actually the best place for her given the state of the council. Greta, how do you think Rhaenyra is feeling about Daemon's absence? She's a little cagey with her lords about it. If I were her, I would be really relieved that I don't have to deal with him. But on the other hand, that's a huge liability, right? Yeah.

So yeah, I mean, what's your read on like getting her kids out of town? Because I did sort of read that as like she is taking their advice to a certain extent, right? I mean, she is preparing for war enough that she's like, okay, I need other people to take responsibility for these children and to make sure that they are in safe places along with these dragon eggs. Yeah, it was sad and prudent all at the same time, which is one, let's safeguard the future. Let's get the kids out of here. They can't do anything. Yeah.

Let's send them to my ally, Jane Aaron, who said, well, I want a dragon around. Okay, she didn't say an adult dragon. So we send a couple of baby dragons and some eggs. Hopefully that will tide her over and we get her support and we get the kids out of harm's way. It was quite responsible, but also I think very, very sad. What did you think?

Oh, I thought it was super sad. I mean, especially, you know, the moment that you're asking someone else to mother your children in case of catastrophe is just like, all right, well, that's it. I think this is one where it did seem like she actually was balancing her roles pretty well in terms of knowing she needs to put being queen first, but still making sure that the kids are being taken care of and that there are people she trusts who are taking care of them. Yeah.

So she sends Reyna to be that person because, as we know, unlike her sister, she doesn't have a dragon. So at least to that extent, she's of no use to the actual war effort. And she is clearly feeling a little put out by that and put out by the fact that she's being asked to sit on the sidelines. Right. I wanted to...

Yeah.

We could lose and it could be the end of us, and so we need this for the future. But here's my question. Do you think these are Danny's eggs in the future? There's four of them, not three, so maybe they lose one along the way. But they do go east to Pentos where Danny is then gifted eggs that may or may not be these eggs. But quite a tantalizing thread, no? If this is the eggs, this is how the eggs got there?

It is. And you probably remember when we did the Game of Thrones convention together a couple years ago now. And someone had like DM'd me on Instagram and was like, those are the eggs. And I was like, I don't know, man, this seems like a stretch, but we'll see, maybe. Do you think Rhaenyra regrets not reading Alyson's letter sooner? I understand why she didn't. I think their relationship is so complicated. I'm not sure...

That it necessarily would have helped. But I loved that they talked to each other in this episode. And that was another pacing thing I wanted to bring up. Because again, we have a conversation between Rhaenyra and Mysaria where Rhaenyra's like, I would love to see Alicent. There's another version of the show where that would have taken a half a season for them to actually make that happen. The fact that the next scene she is disguised as a scepter walking through town was just like, yes, let's do it.

Let's listen to that.

I came away both downcast and hopeful. Hopeful because Alyson did not turn Rhaenyra in.

But kind of down because I love the idea from Rhaenyra to find any way to forge some kind of peace. That's a good thought and one that should be pursued. And the outside of the box thinking that maybe Alicent, taking the advice of Rhaenys, maybe Alicent is the way that we can forge that peace with.

At the same time, I find myself so frustrated that with that good idea, she offered nothing. Like it was basically, guys, just surrender because this is, you know, you guys are in the wrong, so just let me be queen. Can you give us something? Let's marry Jace to Jaehera. What is the thing that you can offer that might give them a way out?

To accept peace honorably, because at this point, everybody's blood is up and nobody wants to look like they lost. So how do you give them the thing that they can take to their side and present it as a win? And I was really saddened that Raniera didn't do that. All she offered was just quit.

What were your thoughts about this scene? I totally hear you. I do think the fact that they cleared up the prophecy misunderstanding... That was important. ...is really important. I think it introduces doubt for Alicent in a very real way. And I do think it's going to be interesting to see how she reflects on that information and what choices she makes from here. But, I mean, her immediate reaction is more or less like, it's too late.

Like, it's been very clear for a very long time that it's not about Rhaenyra and Alicent being able to mend things anymore. Yeah. This is not in the book, by the way. Oh, really? Why do you think they added it? I think they added it to show that there are a lot of things that didn't make the historical record that drove events. And that those things were happening between events.

Alison to Rhaenyra or other people that are kind of roundly ignored as leaders. You know, obviously a theme of this show is that women are not seen as power players in the realm. And I think this scene was in part added to show that yes, they are. And when they are,

It's either ignored or easily hidden because they're not seen that way. Right. Yeah, it wouldn't have made the books even if it were monumental. Why do you think Rhaenyra asked what Viserys said on his deathbed? What do you think that was about? I think she has been wrestling with doubt about whether or not Viserys really thought she should be queen after all.

And you kind of see it in her face when she's asking and when Alicent is responding when she says he mentioned Aegon. Yeah, it really seemed like Alicent took those words as true. Viserys, sure, he never said outright that he thought Aegon should be king before then, but he also, as we have discussed, didn't do a lot to shore up support for Rhaenyra when he was in a position to do so. In which case, I could totally see why she would...

wonder what his last words really were. The performances of these two actors is fantastic. And like the vulnerability of Rhaenyra when asking what it was that Viserys said, it's clear the way it hit me was, okay, did he really change his mind? Like, if you tell me right now that he changed his mind, I'll believe you. Yes. If you tell me sincerely. And that was...

It was really sad and really vulnerable for Rhaenyra, and I was very moved by it. I think that's what was so striking about that scene in general, too, is that you can tell they both still trust each other, right? It's like also when Rhaenyra was like, I had nothing to do with beheading that child. Alicent was like, oh, come on. You know, she was like, okay, I believe you. You know, like they both still really do believe each other. Yep. Do you think that Alicent could stop the war, like convince people to do that?

I don't think so. And part of my reasoning is around the fact that Alison's power, I mean, like the power of most women in this world is so contingent upon the men that surround her. Kind of get that in this clip too, where she's like, Otto's gone. Kristen Cole is gone. Like nobody's in my pocket the way I would need them to be in order to make that happen. It's kind of how I read that.

Especially like Aegon's kid has been killed. Aegon's just furious, obviously. Yeah. But I'm still optimistic that they can have some positive change as a little team. Same. Well, shall we go to our interview with Bethany Antonia, who plays Bela? Let's do it. We are so excited to welcome Bethany Antonia, who plays Bela Targaryen, to the show. Thanks for being here, Bethany.

Hello. Thanks for having me. Thanks for coming on. So we're really excited to talk to you because Bela has taken on already such a bigger role than she had in season one. You really see her. I mean, she's at the Queen's Council. She is an advisor. She is riding that dragon. It's really cool to see. What's it like from your point of view?

Oh, it's so amazing. It just feels like such a blessing to get to play this character now at her full potential. It felt like we waited such a long time to see all the kids of the dance really step up into the characters we all knew they were going to be. And it just feels like a real privilege to get to play her.

So we have to talk about the huge moment that Bela has in this episode, which is when we finally see her riding Moondancer. It was awesome. Of course, this is the sequence where you're like chasing Kristen Cole and Gwaine Hightower. What is it like to film a scene like that? I mean, you're you're not.

riding a literal dragon, obviously. Hey, I'll have none of that. Sorry, I shouldn't have put it like that. It's so cool. The way they film the dragon scenes is really, really fascinating because you kind of get given an animation of what it's going to look like, like before you've even shot it, before both sides of the scenes have been shot.

So I got to see like Bela's POV. I got to see what the different weather options were all before I even sat on the Dragon Mount. By the time you've kind of got up there, you know exactly what the director is looking for. And then the last bit of the magic is just to sit on the saddle and...

Fly into the air. So what is the prep like for a dragon scene? Do you talk to the other actors who have filmed on dragons? You watch other dragon scenes. How do you prepare for it? Yeah, it's really funny because everybody has a slightly different take on the dragon riding scenes. Some people absolutely love it. Some people think it's the worst part of the job because it's so uncomfortable. Yeah.

So I tried to just like take little nuggets from everybody who had different advice. And then I suppose with the actual dragon riding, each dragon is so different visually and they've all got their own like quirks and features. And we'd seen so much of what they were going to look like in the lead up between season one and two. We'd been, we'd been shown pictures and stuff.

So you kind of got to decide what the relationship was between you and your dragon and how you'd move and how you'd fly. And yeah, so I think part of it is like a character building process, which was a bit that I loved. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Well, that's also an interesting scene from the point of view of like getting to know Bela's character because, you know, the instructions she gets are to scout. Like she's not supposed to interfere at all.

But she gets in there. And I think that's a really cool thing. Like, it's...

It's such a, you know, arguably small thing, but at the same time, it gives you such a sense of who Bela is going to be, you know? Yeah, definitely. And I think it's just a really cool scene because it's a reminder that she's Damon's daughter after all. And that, you know, you can be told one thing, but you can absolutely do another. I think we really get to see Bela grappling with what's right and wrong this season and

and where her loyalty actually lies. I think we've seen her kind of scrambling to find her main parental figure. And I really had fun this season trying to figure out who's the person she goes to when she needs different things. And I think she's found a lot of that in Rhaenyra. But she's also found Rhaenyra can also be the person that she doesn't have to listen to all the time because she's not her immediate parental figure. So yeah, it was really, really fun playing around with that.

Speaking of that, Rhaenyra said, don't engage, don't get low. At the same time, had Kristen Cole and Gawain Hightower and the rest not escaped into the trees, do you think Bela would have taken them on? Yeah, I think she would have. And I think people will be interested to know that we actually shot a few versions of this scene. We shot kind of like alternate endings. Oh, really? Maybe not alternate endings, but alternate motives.

And there was a version where Bela saw them, delayed her response, and then they got away. There was a version where she saw them and tried to go for them and miss. And then there's the version that we see in this, which is that she was just a little bit too late and we don't know what her intention was going in. And I like to think that she would have gone for them if given the chance.

I kind of love of those three. I think that is my favorite option is what we see where it's like because it does leave open that possibility, which is really interesting. Yeah, absolutely. So in this episode, Bela also has to say goodbye to her sister Raina. And I wonder what it was like to film that sequence. I mean, these are two characters who have such a huge backstory, but we haven't seen a whole lot of them interacting with each other in the show yet. Yeah.

Oh, it was so heartbreaking. The scene that we see in this episode was actually the audition scene that Phoebe and I did together way back in like 2021. A million years ago. Yeah, like four years ago. And it was so nice to finally get to do it on screen. But it was also just so sad because I think for both of us, you know, so early on, they're ripped away from each other. So the emotion in that scene was very real from both of us.

Tell us about the relationship between Raina and Bela. Obviously, very complicated family dynamics, both very young, thrust into the heat of this civil war. How do they feel about each other? What's their relationship like? Yeah, I think their relationship has been a tumultuous one because as children, they were so inseparable and they were so close and they had this shared upbringing in Pentos. And then when Raina passed away, Bela was sent to Ward with Rainis and Corliss at Driftmark. And Raina...

Raina stayed at home with Rhaenyra and the boys and Daemon was kind of in and out of, you know, all of their childhoods. And although Driftmark and Dragonstone are very close, they were still like actively separate. Yeah.

And just in the way that in Westeros, the eldest child is kind of favoured, that had happened between the two of them. And Rayna felt quite a lot of resentment towards that and towards the fact that Bela got to be raised with Rhaenys and live kind of in the footsteps of her mother while Rayna didn't get to do that.

And so I think there's kind of this rift that has come up between them and where we meet them now in season two, episode three, that's where they are. And it's really sad because they're kind of on the brink of fixing it because it's the first time that they're back together. They're back in the same place with all their family at the same time. They're all living under one roof now. They're all at Dragonstone and they're separated again. So I'm really interested to see where that goes in the future.

Well, you mentioned resentment. Also, just like how different they are. It seems like one of the huge differences also is the fact that Bela has a dragon. Yeah, of course. And that's something that started way back when. And another thing that's led Raina to feel...

kind of like the lesser sibling. It's just another thing that Bela has that she doesn't. She's the eldest sibling. She's got the dragon. She gets to live with her grandma and she gets to learn about being the leader of Driftmark. And yeah, not having a dragon is something that Reyna really is devastated about because she's the only Targaryen that doesn't have one.

You mentioned Bela and Reina's biographies and childhood histories. How important is that, putting those pieces together, even if they're not things we're going to see on the screen, towards you really being able to inhabit this character? Oh, so important to me. I think for me, the backstory of any character is like...

the most important part of being able to play them, especially when it comes to finding your relationships with different characters and finding where the nuances are between how you interact with each other. There's so much of, for example, Bela and Jace's storyline that happens off screen.

And we really needed to build that before we could start filming it this season or else it just didn't feel right. It didn't feel natural. We didn't know where we needed to fill in the blanks of where they'd been off screen before we could bring it to real life this season. So, yeah, really, really important. That makes sense. I mean, you and Jace do or Bela and Jace do have such a nice dynamic this season. We were actually talking about like that, you know, in an earlier episode, how sweet their relationship seems to be, which is.

You know, like you don't get a whole lot of like just nice relationships on this show. But I'd love to hear how it's been to work more closely with Harry Collette, who plays Jace. I mean, how do you prepare for your scenes together?

Oh, I love that boy so much. We had so much fun this season because, you know, Jace has lost Luke and now Bela's lost Raina. And so they're like the last duo standing at Dragonstone. And they really learn to lean on each other and to become each other's like wing person. We had so much fun working together. We had so much fun, like creating these little backstories of our characters and

Just, yeah, he's such a brilliant, brilliant guy. Are there any of those backstories that you could share? Yeah. We had the idea that when Bela was at Driftmark with Rainice...

they would fly their dragons over to meet each other. And they would go in the scene that you've seen in episode two, where they meet when Bela's crossbow training. That's their like secret, sacred place that they meet at. And they have done that all off, all the while off camera. And maybe it's somewhere in between Driftmark and Dragonstone and they'd fly there on their dragons and just like gossip about the grownups. Yeah.

That's really cute. Yeah. And we also sort of said that like after every Black Council scene, maybe they just like go off and have a debrief and they get to talk normally, not like with the formality of being at court. They get to just like chat like kids in the group chat. I love that. That's really cool. Yeah. Of course, these two characters are betrothed to each other. How do you envision their marriage? Yeah.

Just like really harmonious, no drama. They really love each other. And something that Harry and me have talked about is that they probably would have ended up together without the betrothal. They care about each other so much. And there's a really beautiful thing that you see with the younger versions of

of the characters at Lena's funeral, where they kind of hold hands just for a tiny two second moment. But it meant so much to like the development of our characters. And I think that they're probably the only people that have openly talked about the fact that Harwin is Jace's real dad. And it's like second nature to them to have that conversation. And so they can both talk about having lost a parent so openly. And I think that like bonding through grief has just like solidified what their relationship is now that they're grown up.

I love that. You've been a part of a lot of small council deliberations on Dragonstone this season. What's it like filming those? And how do you think Bela feels that it's going at the moment? The black council scenes are the longest scenes to film because there's so many people. So you kind of do like,

four days on one scene. But they're really fun to film because it's one of the only times that everyone's together, really, and that you get to see the whole Black Council. And I think Bela gradually, as the show goes on, is just starting to feel more and more afraid of losing the people that she loves. I think she can see that this war isn't going as seamlessly as they'd assumed and hoped.

And I think we see her realize that it's not just about having dragons. We're not winning. Nobody's winning. I think that they all thought the war was going to be very clear cut. And as the council scenes go on and on and on, we see her realize that that's not the case.

This is such a personal story, too, beyond just being a story about two warring factions. You know, both sides have long histories. There was the kid fight years back when Eamon's eye was cut out. So you've been feuding since y'all have been kids. How do those kinds of personal feelings affect what's going on here?

we should have just said sorry when we were 10 and not taken the mick out of him and literally nobody would be dead literally nobody would be dead

And you know, it's really funny you bring that up because I think one of the things that we did this season when the directors made us watch that scene again, the initial scene where just before Eamon claims Vega, just to remind us of like where that kind of kid bullying began and how nothing really mentally has shifted. We've just grown up. We've all grown up and now our actions have like bigger consequences.

And I think it's really brilliant to just like go back every now and again and remember that that's where it started because the personal feelings is all that's fueling this war. And now we're kind of in tit for tat ground and people are one-upping each other, but it all comes back down to that initial moment where a child was bullied. That is really wild. Yeah. I have another sort of like behind the scenes question for you, which is about the wig you wear. I assume it's a wig. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, it's a wig. How, what is that process like? I mean, it's got to get, like, is it itchy? I don't know. I just have a lot of wig questions. Yeah. No, funnily enough, in season two, I actually shaved my head to make the wig process easier. That makes sense. That makes sense. I had a big afro in season one and the wig time was like two hours to braid my afro away, an hour to get the wig. I was like, absolutely not. We're shooting for six months. The hair's going. Yeah.

So I shaved all my hair off and then it made it so seamless. It was like half an hour to get it on and then they do some cool braid thing to it and it looks amazing. That's awesome. Yeah. Well, obviously Bela is quite strongly team black, but Bethany, what about yourself? Team green and team black and how do you feel the war's going? You don't need to ask me that question. You know what team I am. Yeah. Oh, dang. Yeah, I know. Yeah.

Good answer. Blasphemous. And I think the war is going terribly. Like so terribly. Like the worst it could possibly be going. Yes, yes. Uh-huh, uh-huh.

So here's another potentially blasphemous question. Do you think Bela would make a good queen? Oh, you know what? I think she would, but I don't want that for her. This track record of kings and queens is not going well. It doesn't seem fun, right? I just want Bela and Jace to go off on a little Caribbean holiday with their dragons, drink pina coladas, and look at Westeros from afar. Good for them. I respect it.

Well, Bethany, thank you so much for chatting with us. This really was fun. Oh, thank you so much. This was so nice. That was the wonderful and winning Bethany Antonia, who plays Bela. And next up, we also got a chance to welcome director Geeta Vasant Patel back to the podcast. She directed this episode and we had a lot of questions for her about it. Let's go listen.

We are so excited to welcome director Geeta Vasant Patel back to the podcast today. Thank you for being here, Geeta. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Last season in our conversation, you told us about how directing House of the Dragon was a long-term ambition, a dream of yours. You did it. So now going to season two, does it feel any different?

It just feels like the dream keeps going. It's been so great. I still pinch myself when we're shooting, you know, knowing that I'm here making this show that I love with these characters that I love with these writers whose writing is just so profound and these actors who are the top of their craft. It's it really is still a dream.

That's really cool. I have to say, I'm extra excited to talk to you about this episode, obviously, not only because you directed it, but also because I think it was my favorite so far. Oh, that's great. Well, it's definitely something we worked very hard on. So it's been a really long journey with this episode. We took things out, put them back in, for example, the

the dragon chase into the woods. That scene was gone for a long time. Bethany actually told us a little bit about how like you shot it in three different ways, right? You know, it's one of those scenes that it was there when I read the script. And when I came aboard, I unfortunately felt like we could take it out and it wouldn't make a difference. But then it

As soon as we took it out, we missed it because there was a certain tonal quality to it that we really needed for episode three. And there...

I think there's a threat in that scene or that group of scenes that we needed in order to raise the stakes for the rest of the season. So actually, we went back in, the writers, myself, our AD, our DP, and we just sort of put our heads together and thought, okay, what is it that we're missing? It's not that the scene shouldn't be there. It's more that we need to hone it. We all realized that the reason for this scene was twofold.

One is we needed to care about Bethany's character. Bela is someone we don't know much about. We didn't really get to know her first season. And so one of the things that I wanted to do was really bring her forward as Maverick.

You know, she's this feisty character who doesn't play by the rules, that has a deep-seated pain that she's carrying that drives what she's doing. She's lost things. How do you bring that to the screen without words? Because that's exactly what that was. So it was a really great experience working as a team to make sure that this character is someone we cared about. So that was the first thing.

The other thing that we needed to do was to understand that this scene was there in order to scare the living hell out of Cole and his team. And that is something that we also worked on in trying to raise the stakes when they're in the woods. It can't be easy. So the fact that the dragon circles and they're waiting, all of that was added and sort of

honed as we went along. In the end, I hope it is as powerful as we were trying to craft it to be. I think it's one of the scenes that I'm most proud of. And I'm so excited that we truly worked as a family to make sure that it was important and vital to the episode. It's interesting to hear you use the word family in that context, too, because I mean, so much about

Like, the heart of this show really is family too, right? I think especially as we're moving into this season, we're seeing it's also more and more about war. But even then, it still comes back to family. And there's another really intense scene in this episode where...

when Rhaenyra makes the very difficult decision to send some of her children away. I think this is an interesting scene for a couple of reasons. Kind of what you were talking about with Bela, this show has to do so much building of kind of invisible backstory between especially the younger characters that we didn't get a chance to see much of in season one.

And I think that scene is such a great example of, like, you see these tiny hands, you feel so much, you know? That's exactly right. I think one of the wonderful parts of prep on this show was taking these two characters, Bela and Reina, and figuring out who they were. So one of the first things we did is we got in a room with the two actors and we improvised

And we played around. We've, we talked about what their pain was, each of them, where they came from, how are they different? How are they alike? And they, you know, they brought their characters to life. They, they,

just rift. They had arguments. They fell back in love. They didn't support each other, and then they supported each other. And these are the things that happen in behind the scenes when you're trying to bring scenes to life that don't have the exposition. And this is one of the things that I credit the writers with, is they don't dumb it down with exposition. They trust us as the directors and the cast to

to bring it to life when it comes to us. They tell us, look, this is what the scene is really about. The writers knew exactly what they wanted out of this. And so I think one of the great things about this show is that there is this literacy in the visual realm that we are challenged to bring to life. One thing I loved with the both of them is when we did the improvisation, we thought, you know what? Bela...

has always been the iconoclast, and she's done everything against the grain. And here she gets a dragon.

And Reyna has done everything right. She got straight A's. She stayed in. She made her curfew. And she doesn't get a dragon. And this is it. She's done. You know what? I'm going to go get drunk. I'm going to go sleep with people. I'm going to get tattoos. Why am I being the good daughter? Because everyone got a dragon except for me. And I think that's what came out of those experiences.

rehearsals where the two of them found themselves and they and we all know this and this is one of the things that's great about the show as well as I think the technique on this show of going away from fantasy and really grounding the characters in something that we all understand is what Ryan really challenges us to do is how can everyone relate to this? Well, I can relate to that. I'm sure everyone can relate to that.

Then the second part of the scene is where Rhaenyra has to let go of her family. And I thought the treatment of that part of the scene was also interesting. You know, if you think about a mom saying goodbye to her kids, what do you think? Oh my God, I'm so sorry. Oh, she's crying. She's weeping. Rhaenyra is Rhaenyra in this. She's natural. She's real. And that she's a powerful woman who...

lives a very complicated life and she has had to make decisions for her job. I'm a working mom. I don't cry all the time. You know, I dropped my kid off to school. He goes into school. We're all different. And I think one thing about the, you know, the way that we have,

portrayed women in this show is that they are everyday people. And in this case, she's got a job to do. And she goes back to her home after she says goodbye to her children and she cries holding their toys. I thought that was a really great choice that was made by not just the performance, but by the writing. I think one thing that really comes through to me too, thinking about that scene is

And Rhaenyra's point of view is the particular bind she's in. You know, she's getting all this pressure from her advisors. We have to do something. And at the same time, she is doing something, which is...

vulnerable family members she cares very much about who are very important to the continuing legacy of this family out of harm's way before things really get hot. How did you approach that balance for Rhaenyra where she's trying to balance this active war that's currently getting more and more intense and the job of trying to shepherd this family safely through this storm while she's

getting criticism from all sides, this generational criticism too, where the younger folks want to do more, don't think they're doing enough, want to put themselves in harm's way. Yeah. In trying to craft this storyline of Rhaenyra balancing what she has to give up in order to get what she wants, there is this really interesting element underneath it all of ego, and we all recognize it. And I feel like there's

this grain of ego that starts getting larger and larger. And I think part of the charm of her storyline in this episode is actually exposing this flaw that she wants this. And we tried very hard to be in Rhaenyra's point of view. And what I mean by that is not just showing you what she's seeing. That's not point of view in my mind.

Point of view is the air, is sitting with Rhaenyra, walking down the hall. There's, for example, Rhaenyra's walking down a hallway and coming down the stairs in order to talk to Mysaria. We don't have her just walk into the room. We walked with her. We stayed with her. The vulnerability, but also the drive. And we recognize it because it's primal. She's an animal. She sees what she wants, and she's giving up something to gain it.

I think so much of the show also ends up being about the difficulty and balance between being a good ruler and being a good parent. And I think we especially see that in this season with being a good queen and being a good mother. You know, we see Alison struggling with this. We see Helena struggling with this. I think that's another that the scene we've been talking about is a great example with Rhaenyra too, where,

How do you think Rhaenyra is doing at both of those things at this point in the story? I think Rhaenyra is in an episodic part of her life where she walks into one room and she understands what she needs to do there. And then she walks in the next room and she understands what she needs to do there. And it's not until she sits down alone again.

where it all comes together for her. I think things are happening so fast that she hasn't had a chance to plan through or process what it is she's doing. There is a freight train aspect to this where she's in a war room. And when the men are saying, we need to do something, we need to send dragons, her only response

way to deal with that is to say, look, I'm not ready yet. Let me just deal with a couple of things at home. I got to take care of my family, make sure they're not here. I don't even know what I'm going to do yet. She doesn't know what she's going to do yet. So I don't necessarily know if it's thought out. And I think that's also quite human that she's got a family, she's got a job. She can't control everything. And same with Allison. I think Allison's

greatest conflict in this episode is that she can't control her sons. The summit meeting, the secret meeting between Rhaenyra and Alicent, I think came as a surprise to us and I'm sure to a lot of the audience as well. What was your reaction when you read that scene?

It was a surprise to me, too. I think the scene where Rhaenyra goes to Alicent was a surprise in that if we look at the beginning of the episode, Rhaenyra was so charged with emotion. And, you know, I've spent a lot of time in war zones. My first job was working in war zones and documenting, you know, these eye for an eye type of situations.

That can get to a point where everybody's blind. But there are people who have risen above it. So we're looking at a story about a hero. Someone who is willing to look beyond their pain. And she is willing to reach out to do the right thing for this duty that has been put upon her. And she wants to avert war because...

As we've heard in this episode particularly, Rhaenys says there is no war so hateful to the gods as a war between kin and no war so bloody as a war between dragons. What Rhaenys is saying is this is nuclear. If we involve dragons, it is the end of us, all of us. So Rhaenyra has no choice. She believes that there is a way to turn things and that's through Alicent. And by the end...

She finds love within herself, which is heroic. I think that scene is another reason why this is my favorite episode so far, partly because it's just such a pleasure to see those two acting together. They're both so phenomenal. And it's been a while since we've seen that. The last time that they interacted was actually...

in season one, episode eight, which you also directed. You know, it's such an honor to work with these two actors. And it is as if we've come straight from that episode into this episode, in my mind. We walked into the sept. And for example, Emma and I remembered

When Viserys said, you're the one, you know, as he was dying. Alicent, she had a scene in episode eight where Viserys died just after he told her that her son needed to stand on the throne. So there's, it was all very fresh for all of us because it was the same. It was the three of us. Rhaenyra seems like she's out there doing business and,

She came to Alicent to make sure there's no war, but let's just talk about the truth. The whole time she wants to know, does my father not love me?

I just spent all that time waiting for him to walk into that room, and he walked into that room. He came down the aisle of the throne room. He couldn't even walk, and he did it to tell me he loved me. Are you telling me that was all a lie? And that's what happens in this scene, is underneath it all, maybe she didn't come to make amends. Maybe she needed an excuse to know for sure, to look Allison in the eye and know if Allison was lying. Mm-hmm.

And on the other hand, then Allison is hit over the head with, was this a mistake? But Allison being Allison holds her ground and cannot process this in the moment. It's overwhelming. And so she holds her ground, although we feel her entire world falling apart because she has been pushing her two sons away.

To lead. And there's a part of her that is now perhaps feeling honest. And we'll see this go into the next episodes. When they leave each other after this secret meeting in the Sept, you know, on the surface, it feels like neither really got what they wanted. Rhaenyra didn't get a peace deal.

Alicent didn't get an end to the war. At the same time, it also feels like some unexpected door also opened. Where do they leave when they part from each other? Rhaenyra came to this hoping that she could make some kind of deal with Alicent. What she didn't perhaps realize is that she had nothing to give Alicent. When Alicent says, okay, well,

You're going to come and, you know, allow me to move forward? No. And so they actually, what Rhaenyra wanted was for Alicent to just give her the throne. Right. And there was no compromise. And I think that's the big realization they both have at the end of the scene. There is no, no one is willing to compromise. So that thing that we talk about, an eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind, the pain's still there. Neither of them actually lets up.

What is really evident in this scene is the love between the two of them. There's this beautiful vulnerability at the end of the scene when Alison, in her last words before she leaves the room, tells Rhaenyra, look, you've seen what I'm going through. You see my sons. And we feel it there. And Rhaenyra feels it there. Alison is basically leaving the room powerless and having admitted it.

And what she feels is a space of speaking with her sister. And Rhaenyra is disappointed in Alicent. I don't know if Rhaenyra fully realizes that she wasn't actually compromising in that room. Again, there is this ego that's forming. And this is my opinion. I just think that there is someone growing here. I think at the end, Alicent is spinning with the truth.

And Rhaenyra is galvanized to push the button, which she didn't want to do. Yeah. I don't know. It's funny because I think so often I find myself getting frustrated with a plot point where I'm like, well, if they could just talk to each other, it would all be fine. Yeah. And so it was partly really satisfying to see like, oh my God, they're actually talking to each other. But also it's not all going to be fine. It's actually much worse. Yeah. Yeah.

We have to talk about Harrenhal. Yes. Seeing as this is, we saw it a little bit in Game of Thrones, but never to this degree. And there's this wonderful spooky vibe that the castle puts off. Tell us about your approach to filming Harrenhal. When I first read Harrenhal, I thought of Silence of the Lambs. I...

I really wanted it to be pitch dark, to be honest. I wanted him to just be lost because I felt like it was a metaphor for what Damon...

is going through right now. And so that was the entry point into this, is trying to make Harrenhal exemplary of what Damon is feeling throughout the season. And this is the beginning of that story. He comes into a place that puts him on his back foot and scares him, to be honest. And Damon doesn't get scared easily. If we go to the very beginning of that scene, we

We knew that the last time we saw Damon, he had been fighting with his wife and she had pushed him away. When someone pushes you away and tells you you're worthless, it hurts and it drives you into a spin. And so the way that the dragon was entering that scene, I really wanted it to be a guy getting in his car, drinking and driving and just feeling pain.

Like, my life sucks and fuck her, you know? And so that's what we did. We kind of created this drunken dragon entry into the scene and this darkness. And then he comes around Harrenhal and the weather is terrible. It's not just, you know, that was all done in order to help us get into Damon's head. He's entering Harrenhal with troubles. Yeah.

So Harrenhal is really fascinating to see. I would love to hear about some of the visual elements that you wanted to make sure to have there to create the creepiness and the witchiness and the general eeriness. I think a lot about even like the sound design in those scenes because like something is always dripping. Yeah.

When we first sat down, and a lot of this started with Ryan and Jim Clay, our production designer. When we first started creating Heron Hall, it was about a place that doesn't make sense and a place that constantly surprises you and is mercurial. So one of the big things, and we got this from the books as well, is that there's

big, epic, wide spaces and all of a sudden it would go into a space that is tight and small and then it would go back out to big and the stairs would go down and the stairs would go up. It

It's a confusing space. It is disorienting. That was one of the words we used the most. And so when I came on, I think it was just trying to deliver that. And I mean, it was a very, very long process of making sure that when Damon enters Heron Hall, you feel how big it is, but we didn't have the set that looked like that. So everything you're seeing on the screen is actually a very small, small set of

that we played games with. For example, he goes down one hall and turns a corner and goes down another hall. That was the same hall. We just lit it differently, dressed it differently. You see a hall and it looks like it's very long. It's actually very short. Visual effects busted out the back of it.

There's so many things like that. I think the biggest thing for me was making sure that it was haunting. Yeah, I think that's very clear. One final question. Last season, you told us that you were Team Black, all in, Rhaenyra all the way. How are you feeling now? I am still Team Black.

Yeah. Is there slightly more? Did I hear some hesitation in your voice? No, no. I think I'm still team black. I've always been team black. I think Raniere will come around. I think she's going to come around. I feel her getting a little out of hand. And I'm hoping that she finds her way. I'm hoping that I'm wrong, that she's not going in the direction it feels like she's going in. But I feel like I relate to her the most. Wait, what team are you guys?

Right now. Team Black still. Yeah, I'm Team Black with notes. With notes. Are you seeing what I'm seeing with Rhaenyra? Like, are you feeling it? I mean, Rhaenyra walked into the sept and was like, let's end this. Here's my deal. You give me everything. It's cool, right?

Also, did my dad hate me? Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, come on. Yeah. You can't, nothing, no intermarriage, no trading and stuff like, come on. I don't think Raniere took the class in college of how to strike a deal. Yeah. Yeah.

No, for sure no. Allison and Raniro both went through this. They both want to be number one in everyone's eyes because they've always been overlooked. So neither of them wants to compromise because they're both tired of compromising. It's tragic. It's tragic. Well, Geeta, thank you so much for coming back on the show. It's always such a pleasure to hear your insights. Thank you. You too. I love your show. You guys are doing such a great job. Thank you. Thank you.

I love Gita. She's my favorite. I mean, this is true of everyone that we've had on. That's true. They are all of our favorites. Okay, Jason, before we go, we need to do our weekly check-ins. First up, who is winning this week? Team Green or Team Black? Oh, gosh. I think it's a push. Okay. Obviously, Green's armies are in the march. At the same time, they lost Harrenhal. They don't know about it. Yeah. So I'm going to say it's a push. Who do you think is winning?

I also am probably unrealistically hopeful about the potential alliance here between Rhaenyra and Alicent. I think team friendship is winning, and I'm so happy about that. So unfortunately, we are not marking anything off on our bingo cards this week, but here's hoping for bingo next week. We'll see.

That's all for today's episode. Don't forget to join us next Sunday night right after episode four airs on HBO and Max. If you like what you're hearing, we would love it if you would leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice. You can find us on the Game of Thrones and House of the Dragons social media handles, and you can find me at GretaMJohnsen on X and Instagram. You can find me at NETW3RK.com.

on X and Instagram. The official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon, is produced by HBO in collaboration with Pineapple Street Studios.

This podcast is hosted by Greta Johnson. And Jason Concepcion. Our executive producers for Pineapple Street are Gabrielle Lewis, Jay-Ann Berry, and Barry Finkel. Our lead engineer is Hannes Brown, and Hannes also mixed this episode. Pineapple's head of sound and engineering is Raj Makija, and Pineapple's senior audio engineers are Marina Pais and Pedro Alvira. Our editor is Darby Maloney with fact-checking by Melissa Akiko Slaughter.

Our producers are Ben Goldberg, Elliot Adler, Melissa Akiko Slaughter, and myself. Special thanks to Michael Gluckstad, Alison Cohen, and Kenya Reyes, Savon Slater, and Aaron Kelly from the Max podcast team. Thanks for listening. Tales take on a life of their own. My weeds, unless they are tended. But tend to them then.