A Look Ahead to Season 2 with Showrunner Ryan Condal
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Errors were made in the hours following King Viserys's death. The war be fought, many will die, and the victor will eventually ascend the throne. I love a passive construction. Errors were made. Errors. For instance, Sir Lyman Beesbury, the Master of Coin, opened his fucking mouth to make a reasonable objection.

Welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon. I'm Greta Johnson. And I'm Jason Concepcion. The season two premiere of the HBO original series, House of the Dragon, is coming June 16th. This...

Sunday night, 9 p.m. on HBO and Max. So close, Greta. We are closer than ever before. And that night, right after the premiere drops, we are going to have a fresh episode of this podcast so you can hear us unpack it with you all. But today, we have one last pre-premiere episode to get us fully ready for what is to come. Or I guess as ready as we possibly can be, given the circumstances.

On today's episode, we're going to catch up on all those loose threads from season one, but we'll start with the rest of our interview with our dear FOP, friend of the pod, House of the Dragon showrunner, Ryan Condal. We heard a preview of that conversation in episode one, but here's the full Monty. Here we go. We must play the board before us. Fuck dignity. I want revenge.

We are thrilled to welcome back House of the Dragon showrunner and executive producer, Ryan Kondal. Ryan, welcome back. Thanks for having me.

Thank you so much for having me. So where are you in the world in this moment in time? I'm in London, where I spend the vast majority of my life these days. I'm coming up on my fourth anniversary of living abroad in the UK, and it's home now. I mean, my kids were babies, essentially. We moved, and they've been in school for four years here and all that, and it's home now for the foreseeable. And what did you call it before we started recording your nerd castle?

My nerd outposts, my nerdery. Your nerd outposts. Yes. It's perfect. Yes. So Ryan, as we go into season two, we have two sides competing for the throne. Team Green led by King Aegon and Team Black led by Queen Rhaenyra. I wonder if almost like a scouting report, you could give us your read on these two sides, like the advantages, the disadvantages, the strengths and weaknesses.

Team Green has to have the advantage coming right out of the gate. They have the throne, they have King's Landing, the city where the throne is, and the city that everybody has accepted as the seat of the sovereign of Westeros. They're on the mainland. Dragonstone is an island, which makes for good defense, but bad for raising armies and making an offensive.

And though they don't have as many dragons as Rhaenyra's side, they do have Vhagar. That's the LeBron James of dragons. It makes the whole team better and eats up the most of the salary cap. It's very...

Vhagar is a big threat. But yeah, so I mean, it has to sit with them. And they also have the male claimant, which I think is the that's sort of the subtextual advantage is that kind of most of the realm, I think, would happily go along with that. Rhaenyra is really in the position of being a challenger, an uprising. She's really in the position of running a rebellion in season two right out of the gate, which just makes her the natural underdog.

I would love to talk more about how you approach writing this conflict because you're doing, at least you did in season one, and I anticipate the same with season two. You've done such a great job of not making this just like a very straightforward, like good guy versus bad guy situation. Like it's all extremely capital T complicated. And that's fascinating. Thank you. That's the hope. We, as I think artists are much more interested in the individuals on each team, um,

And who do you side with personally? Who are you worried about? Who do you want to see succeed? Who can't you stand on either side? And is there a cause or a side that you can root for despite all the complications of the capital C on either side? Okay, this is the perfect jumping off point for our next questions, which are about getting your read on some of the things that we saw in season one and where things were left.

In the moments after Viserys' death, Team Green and Team Black are both scrambling to get allies on their respective sides. What mistakes did each side make, and what

would you have done differently if you were in their shoes? I mean, I think, honestly, I think Rhaenyra's side should have been more prepared. They were caught unawares. I think it was just like Daemon and Rhaenyra just didn't want to think about the day that Viserys died. And I think both of them, and I think that blinded them to a lot of what was coming. And on the green side, I mean, I think it's just very simply, let's not have Vhagar go out and chomp Rhaenyra's son and his dragon in half because

Because had that not happened...

The Greens have this very clean sort of classic, like any order where it's like, hey, we like the system as it exists. It's been this way for a thousand years. Let's not mess with it. Let's not change it. They have a very clear story where it's like, Aegon is the male claimant. He is the firstborn son of the dead king. Thus, by all rule, by all precedent, even by the precedent set by Jaehaerys, the greatest king that we've ever had, he should be king. Right.

Rhaenyra's really only case is my dad said he wanted it to be me.

And that and and and also there's a bunch of you bent the knee and swore an oath and don't forget your oath because I'll take your head for it. So people like the Starks and things like that who never who never forget an oath are kind of challenged to go back on on their word. And I think that's where the before all the morality that comes into play. And believe me, there's a lot of new morality that will be introduced into the equation in season two of who's who's right and whose side do I want to fight for and so on and so forth.

You know, the greens really had a big advantage coming out of the gate. That's what makes Rhaenyra really playing off the back foot. And she's trusting that these lords that all in episode one and that all came from far across the land and bent the knee and swore to her are going to remember that oath and also remember the oath that they're possibly their father or their grandfather swore because, you know, a lot of these lords have changed over. And that's going to be part of the problem that Rhaenyra is faced with.

So another issue that I think would be worth rehashing a little bit here while we have you is the fact that Alicent misunderstood Viserys's last words. I think we should listen to the audio and then we can unpack it a little. Don't you remember Aegon? Alicent. His dream, the Song of Ice. In fact, it is true. What he saw in the North, the prince that was promised. I don't understand what you're saying. Ah, it's...

The prince. Prince Edmund. To ignite the realm. Against the cold. And the dark. It is you. You are the one. You must do this.

I do think that's a really interesting moment because obviously, I mean, Alison had been thinking about a lot of this stuff before that moment, but it does seem like that is an instance that really solidifies her own convictions. Is that a fair assessment, you think? Sure. And look, you know, I think there's multiple ways to interpret it. We really didn't want to make any of these big moments too definitive on either side. Life is very complicated. Humans are very complicated. They make decisions for all different reasons.

You can have smart people do dumb things and smart people that don't see the whole board before them. Alicent is very honorable, she's pious, but she devoted her entire life and her body, really, if you think about it, and her health to bringing forth a male son for the realm to put him on the throne. And I think she just has her entire youth invested in this moment

So I think when Viserys says that, and I was really moved listening to it. God, he's Patty. We miss Patty so much. Phenomenal.

The desire for confirmation bias is so strong that she's looking for anything to grasp onto. And look, there's a version where he just breathes his last breath, says, I love you or something, or I never loved you or whatever it is on the bed, dies. And then Allison goes downstairs and we're off on this conspiracy anyway. I think that moment matters so much for Allison, as you will see.

But I don't know that that moment really matters for kind of anybody else on her side. Because I really don't think that Egon would wake up the next day and say, well, if my dad didn't want it to be me, then it's not me. And that Otto Hightower wouldn't.

So that is more of a character moment between a wife and her very elderly, very sick, infirmed husband. And the last moment they shared together and trying to see that Alison is looking to grasp on the thing that she wanted to hear her entire marriage ever since that boy was born, that he was going to be the one. And it made all of the things that she gave up in her life worth it.

How are the common folk of Westeros receiving all of this tumult and chaos? How are they perceiving this internecine squabble that's just beginning to take place? We actually do get into that a lot this year, Jason. I mean, you'll see we didn't really do a lot of small folk stories in the first season, but for a very good reason, we do get quite a bit of ground level view of certainly of King's Landing, of what's going on and how people are thinking about it.

But honestly, in this immediate moment, I think everybody's just really nervous because

small folk desire stability. They don't really care who's on the throne. I mean, they love to gossip about it as my country folk do here about our royal family. But really, the day-to-day movements of the royal family don't affect them. It's whoever's the hot celebrity at the time. But they're worried about, is there going to be a war? Is the war going to come to King's Landing? Is it going to affect my ability to feed my family or to have a job? Is it going to cause supply shortages, et cetera, et cetera? Those are all... Because the

The small folk are the ones that are affected first. George said, I believe in Feast for Crows, which is my favorite of the books thus far, is basically the nobles fight the war and the small folk bleed for it. So I think that's what our small folk are the most worried about right now, not necessarily who has the better claim, because those are the games of the 1% and the nobility. That makes sense. Yeah.

So I would love to unpack with you a little bit about where we left off in season one with Damon and Rhaenyra, too. I mean, you talked about Rhaenyra kind of being on her back foot, but those two...

Seems like if ideally they would be on the most stable footing as possible to as a couple at this point. For sure. I mean, they definitely have a complicated relationship. They've been through a lot together. But Damon is just a man and one of a cause. And he's found his cause.

in the Hightower usurping the throne, and he's kind of delighted by it. Not by what they've done, but by what it gives him the license to do, which is kind of anything that he sees fit because he can call it fighting for Rhaenyra's crown. I think it's Rhaenyra that is going through the more complicated emotion because not only has her father died, her crown had been stolen, but she's, as we know at the end of season one, she's just received news that her middle son has been murdered by the other side.

So yeah, you're saying essentially that Daemon just wants to fuck shit up, which I completely understand and respect knowing Daemon as well as I do from season one. But do you think that he does in fact respect her claim to the throne? It's very complicated. I think Daemon sees it as...

his brother's throne and claim, and it passes through that bloodline, which I think he sees as more of theirs. And certainly, he sees her as queen, and it's not that Damon is making a challenge or anything like that. But I think Damon, he's still very injured by the fact that his brother...

passed him over. And as we saw when Rhaenyra mentions this Song of Ice and Fire and then sort of realizes with a laugh that Viserys never saw fit to tell Daemon this deep secret that was supposed to go from king to heir all the way through the history. And that meant that she was saying that Viserys never took him seriously as an heir. So I think there's a complicated psychology going on there that we certainly excavate over the course of the season and beyond.

But Daemon is really, he just doesn't want to see the other guys on the throne. I think that's his motivation today. He hates anybody that wears green, any Hightower, anything, and that aligns him with Rhaenyra. This coming season is going to be the first in which we really see Aegon's ruling style. You know, the way that that side of the struggle is really set up is interesting because, of

had enormous influence on the policies for the Greens pulling strings. But now neither of them really has the power. So what is that balancing act going to be like? Yeah, I mean, that's part of what I'm delighted for people to see. I mean, it's just that this is where all the fun character nuance comes out of this world. And Egon wasn't necessarily prepared to rule. Look, this poor kid has grown up his entire life. He's the only male in

in this entire history of Westeros that's written so far with kings, who is the firstborn son of his father, the king, who is not the incumbent, who is not the presumed heir, who is not seen as the rightful heir. And that's got to do something to somebody that grows up in a world that so values the firstborn son. Who's the heir? Who's going to inherit it all? And to him, I think it just said that I wasn't good enough.

And I think Egon has definite issues. And whether he's the best candidate to rule or to be a monarch is up for debate. Is it? Yeah.

You can see how that is a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way when somebody is just told that, hey, your sister's getting the job. Sorry. I mean, it's emasculating for a male-centered society. He's going to have to drop right into this. He's got two great statespeople in Allison Donato Hightower that are certainly going to try to steer him and walk the right path. But he's going to have other voices in the mix that want him to prosecute the war differently.

Hmm. It's interesting to thinking about Rainera and her own motivations for being queen, because it seems like we've lost so much of that at this point in the story, too. I mean, at this point, sure, you could argue she certainly has more to lose. But also, what does she really have to lose at this point either? You know?

Well, the rest of her family. I mean, that's the thing. And we'll get more into it in season two. But these two sides are marching off to war in a world where there are essentially nuclear weapons involved. So everybody is doing the math constantly of we have to try to win strength to our side without...

setting fire to the entire realm and burning down everything and everyone we love because that could it could very quickly go that way and the idea of mutually assured destruction even though they don't have a word for that the way you know the way we did during the height of the Cold War that is certainly on the minds of everybody and

And no one in this life has lived to see a dragon battle. They know it's probably horrible, but they don't know what it's like at all. So I think that's also in the back of everyone's mind. So Rhaenyra knows, and she's studied the Valyrian history. She studied at her dad's feet. She knows how awful this is likely to be, how bad the cost is likely to be if she is ever going to sit on that throne in King's Landing.

Is there a storyline or a character that you're just super excited for this season? I mean, there are a bunch. I mean, two sort of answers without showing bias to anybody. I mean, I really love them all.

We love them all. I'm very excited for the audience to get to spend a lot of time with Tom Glenn Carney as Egon because he is such a delight both as a human and as an actor. And I think just there's so many preconceptions coming in as to who Egon is and what he is that I think a lot of people will be surprised with what he is.

what we've done with the storytelling, but with the humanity that Tom has brought to it with his performance and the humor. I think some of our best laughs this season might be Egon laughs. Sometimes it is expense, but sometimes because he's just funny. And the other story that beyond our central story of Rene and Allison, which continues to be, I think, the proudest thing that

I think we have done in terms of crafting this tale and bringing it to life from Fire and Blood and to the show. But beyond that stuff, I think it's Damon's story this season that I'm the proudest of. And it was a challenge to...

to, to kind of craft and, and, and figure out, but all credit to Matt Smith for, I think, knocking it out of the park. And I'm, I'm just, I'm not going to say anymore, but I'm very excited for people to see it. Awesome. Well, Ryan, thank you so much for joining us. It's been wonderful. Yes. Thank you. Always love talking to you guys. I love how deep you go on the show and I really appreciate the podcast and everything that you do. It, it warms my cold heart. So thank you.

Uh, Jason, Ryan just said a lot of thought provoking things. I think we should hit on some of the big ones that he just shared so that we can kind of take stock of how we left things off in season one. Yeah, absolutely. So let's start with some of our key characters. What about Damon and Rhaenyra?

This is one that even Ryan himself called complicated, which is certainly an understatement. But it is a really interesting one, too. I mean, he talks about this in the interview, right? I mean, it's

obviously a deeply imperfect alliance, but I would still like to have faith that Daemon is on Team Black after all. Yeah, same. I think I'm with you, and I think part of my concern comes from the fact that, you know, Daemon's relationship with Viserys was really easy to read. He just wanted his... He was like that little brother that's always poking you. Yeah, totally. Pay attention to me, pay attention to me, pay attention to me. Let's hang out. With Rhaenyra, it's a little unclear. I think, honestly...

There's clearly always been an attraction, which is weird. It's okay. We can put that aside. This is a, it's a cultural thing with them. But I also think, um,

In my mind, he's primarily driven by revenge and pettiness. He wants to punish Otto. He wants to punish the Hightowers. Remember in season one, the name day tournament for the late Prince Balon, aka the heir for a day, who didn't have a chance to make it. He had the opportunity to whoop Otto Hightower's son's butt in the tournament and clearly enjoyed it.

And I think that's what this war is for him. But where does that leave him?

his relationship with Rhaenyra and how does that serve her interests? I'm not sure it always does. Yeah, it's interesting. I do think, I mean, would you agree that it's a fair thing to say that, like, he does have respect for Rhaenyra, I think? Yeah. So I know that last episode gets a little rough on that front with, you know, the abuse and all. Yes. Do you think if Rhaenyra didn't need Daemon so desperately in this war that...

After he put his hands on her, that would be it. He'd be done. Like, off to you wherever, you know, I guess kinslaying would be an issue, but the dungeons or somewhere, do you think she'd be done with him? That's an interesting question because I do think, I mean, she definitely does need him, but also...

I don't know. I think that's one where it gets really complicated. It's also like, I think a Damon, and this came up a little in season one when they tried to get him on the City Watch, is like, I think you want Damon close, you know? You want him close, yeah. I think if you can have him under supervision, it's probably going to be a better outcome. What do you think? No, I completely agree. And I just think City Watch is a great example because the complaint about Damon on the City Watch was he was taking it too seriously, I guess, spending too much money on the City Watch guys. Yeah.

cleaning the streets with a little too much aggressiveness ahead of the name day tournament. And I would imagine that he would attack his duties in this war with much the same aggressiveness. You know, I'm thinking about something that Ryan said. He said that Damon still feels wounded by the fact that his brother kind of passed him over. And in season two, they quote, excavate that complicated psychology. Yeah.

What do you think that looks like? I don't know, though. That's another one where, like, I don't know that he actually wanted to be on the throne. So I'm not sure. Yeah.

I think, again, that's more of like he's wounded as a little brother and not as someone who actually thinks he would be a good ruler. Yeah, my completely unscientific read on Damon is that if he was ever given the throne, he would use it for however long it took to exterminate all his perceived enemies, and then he'd give it to somebody else and be like, I'm done.

I don't want to do this anymore. Yeah, I'm out. I don't think he wants it. I think he wants to be perceived as someone who could rule but doesn't want the mess. You know, it's like in school where you're – I used to get report cards that would say, has potential. And that was good enough for me a lot of times. So it's like, hey, teach as long as you understand. Yeah.

That I could do better. I'm for sure not trying here. Yeah. And I think that's kind of Damon's mindset is like, hey, hey, why are you all discounting me for King? Yeah. Excuse me? What? Do I want to do it? No, but don't just discount me out of hand. And I think it's...

a lot of that dynamic. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Okay. So let's talk about another character. One of our main players from season one, who is Alison, which obviously, I mean, that's someone we've been talking about over the last couple of episodes. I think we both have a lot of compassion for her. She's in a really tough spot. And,

I'm sure you recall there was a really interesting conversation between Rhaenys and Alicent in episode nine of season one. Let's listen to it and then we can talk about it. You are wiser than I believed you to be, Alicent Hightower. A true queen counts the cost to her people. And yet you toil still in service to men. Your father, your husband, your son. You desire not to be free, but to make a window in the wall of your prison.

Have you never imagined yourself on the Iron Throne? I love that so much. Yeah, that was a great, great scene. You're wiser than I imagined you to be. That's such a great sneaky insult. How much power do you think Alicent really has right now? Could she seize the throne if she wanted it? Or did the moment...

If it existed, has it passed? I think the moment if it existed has passed. What do you think? Yeah. Right? Yeah, no, I agree. I think that what Rainice is saying right here is...

some version of, you know, throw your dad in prison for treachery and say that you were going to rule as a regent instead of your son until he comes of age, something like that, you know, that some kind of, you can finagle something and bring peace to the realm. And I think that if

I think you're right. If that moment ever existed, it was vanishingly slim and it is gone. And that begs the question, like, who can she trust? Who are her allies? I think Laris is an ally, but you know he's definitely... He's playing so many different games that I'm not sure how much I would really actively rely on him. It also seems like there's such a tit-for-tat, if you will, in their deal, which is a little weird. Yeah.

Kristen Cole, I think, for sure. But that's another interesting one where it does seem like she's really leaning on the potential for them to maybe get together or something as part of it. I agree with you. I think that Laris is a good ally to have and the head of a powerful family at this moment. But I think in terms of people who she could use to actually build a power base, I don't think she's got a lot. Like, Laris, to your point, the relationship is too...

It's too weird to be relied upon all the way. What is the weird pun that we can put in here? There's something. I can't put my foot on it, but there's something. Oh, there it is. Thank you. Perfect. I'm glad we got there. And Kristen Cole is a good guy to have in the palace, but he's not somebody that you could rely on to do anything.

to make political moves with. And so I think if she's going to be a power player in this story going forward, she's going to have to exhibit some,

over her son, over her sons, over her dad somehow, and find people within the capital and beyond who she can rely upon to make moves for her. And I would imagine that she's really going to try and steer Aegon, who from what we've seen is not ready. Yeah.

Do you think she trusts Aegon as a ruler? No. I mean, I think she has to be hopeful that as his mother, she can have some influence on him. But it is interesting to think about how much of Alyson's role at this point has to just be to keep the men in her life in check. Yeah. Yeah, it's like she really is...

Sadly, Rainice is 100% right. She is just there to smooth things out for the power brokers in her life, all of whom are men, to try and find a landing spot that is most amenable to keeping her family together. I think it's a very, very complicated spot. How much do you think she trusts Otto at this point? I mean, a lot happened between the two of them just in the last couple episodes of that season. Yeah.

I would hesitate to quantify it, but I think that certainly her relationship with Laris, which is something no one knows about, and would be something that I think Otto would be shocked to not know about, shocked that his daughter didn't tell him, is an indicator that she realizes that Otto kind of moved her around the chessboard. Yeah, she literally uses that analogy even. Yeah, and that she needs to figure out a way to...

that she can make moves that establish a level of trust in the circle that she has around herself. I think she's the most, to your point about compassion, I feel like she's the most tragic figure in this. Like she never had a shot. You know, the Queen Emma's dead for an hour and her dad goes to her and says, put on your nice dress and go see the king. Yeah, put on your mom's dress. Yeah.

And it wasn't until it was really too late before her eyes opened and she realized the extent to which she had been manipulated. What do you think? Does she trust Otto? I think in a lot of ways with Alicent, she, at least when it comes to her dad, I don't think she gets to choose whether she trusts him. Like, I think she has to be aligned with him, right? And she does need him. Yeah.

But it's very clear that she's increasingly frustrated with the choices he's making on her behalf. I think partly what's so complicated and what Ryan kind of talks about too in that interview is the idea that for Alicent, like she has never been able to look at just her own personal interests. It's always about taking care of others and, you know, her other roles as wife and mother and queen. And I think that's very clearly going to continue to be the case.

Agreed. It makes me think Ryan said something about how Alison has devoted her entire life, essentially, and body to bringing forth a male heir to keep the realm going and maintain the status quo. This is the mission of her father and of her late husband. And now that that's been accomplished, what is her life about?

Right. I mean, she doesn't have a lot to work with. And I think it's really shocking, too, to remember, you know, in those final episodes of season one...

Her own shock when she realizes that everyone on the Green Council has sort of been planning behind her back to make sure that Aegon would take over after Viserys, regardless of what she wanted. That was clearly a massive jaw drop moment for her. Yes. That this group of people who should be paying her the utmost respect, fearing her,

Actually meeting behind her back to make these moves that directly impact her and her family. And she has no idea about it. That's a shocking thing. Yeah. I'd love to see her try and assemble her own kind of council around her to make sure that never happens again. Yes. I think that must be key for her, that and doing whatever she can to secure the safety of,

and well-being of her kids. Right. Ryan, I thought, laid out really interestingly how, and Team Black fans are going to be saddened to hear this, that Team Green really does have huge potential

structural advantages when it comes to making their case to the other houses about who they should back. They have the male heir, which sadly everybody loves. They have the male heir who has the name of their most famous king ever who conquered the continent. Everybody loves that as well. They have King's Landing. They have the Iron Throne, all these symbols of legitimacy. While Team Black is,

Rhaenyra, who's essentially a rookie at this, making the case that, you know, come on, we said some stuff like years ago. So it is worth a quick revisit here. Just what did the lords actually promise? Let's play that clip. What is our standing? We have 30 knights, 100 crossbow men, and 300 men at arms. Dragonstone is relatively easy to defend, but as an instrument of conquest, our army leaves a lot to be desired.

I've sent word to my loyal men in the City Watch. I'll have some support there, but I cannot speak to the numbers. We already have declarations from Keltygar and Staunton, Massey, Darklyn and Bar-Emon. My Lady Mother was an Arryn. The Vale will not turn cloak against their own kin. Riverrun was always a close friend to your father, Your Grace. With Prince Daemon's acquiescence, I have already sent ravens to Lord Grover.

Lord Grover is fickle and easily swayed. He will need to be convinced of the strength of our position and that we will support him should it come to war. I'm going to treat with him myself. What of Storm's End and Winterfell? There has never lived a Stark who forgot an oath, and with House Stark, the North will follow. Lord Boros Baratheon will need to be reminded of his father's promises. I love that. Such a convenient rundown of where everybody stands.

Yeah, it's really good. Also, it strikes me that Damon, who is a wild card, as we all know, prone to making insane, irresponsible, inflammatory statements such as air for a day.

when it's time to go to war is like Mr. Lee Iacocca's top CEO businessman. Like he has all the stats ready to go. It's true. He's telling you like he's got like the pie chart and it's like there's never been a more prepared guy for this moment. That is not the has potential, Damon, that we're familiar with. This is the like, oh, I'm here and I've thought about this a lot and here are the binders I made for you. Yeah.

How binding do you think these oaths are? Of course, the Starks are cut from a different cloth, I think, than many. We love the Starks, yep. But, you know, it says several times, many times, dozens of times, many dozens of times in these...

A Song of Ice and Fire books, words are wind. Many people say it. And I think that's going to be proven true once again in this show. Yeah. Well, I think it was Beesbury right before he got axed who said that thing about, you know, like, yes, they swore an oath. But in many cases, like the people who are actually in charge now aren't even necessarily the ones who made that oath 20 years ago. It could have been, you know, their fathers or grandfathers. So I think...

This is another one where, like, I mean, how many episodes was Viserys, like, actively disintegrating? It does seem like it really would have behooved someone like Rhaenyra to have been, like, making some, you know, doing ambassador-like work for some time before that. Great point, which makes me ask...

Ravens? Really? Don't you think they should? Right. Right? Yeah. Don't you think someone should go? Someone should go. Absolutely. But not your child on a tiny dragon. Not that. Don't do that again. But I think, you know, funnily enough, I think the logic was kind of sound, but like, you know, reality unfortunately intervened. But I think that's going to be really important that they go.

in person to make these connections. So something else that came up in our conversation with Ryan, which I thought was really interesting, is the whole prophecy situation. And I loved his read on like, yeah, no, it doesn't really matter what Alicent, like what Viserys actually meant at that point or what Alicent's interpretation is because it

Like, here we are, you know? Yeah, I think that one of the most fascinating things for me as a book reader is trying to unpack how the reveal of Aegon's dream, this prophecy that he had that had been passed down from ruler to successor since his reign, has affected the way the story has unfolded, you know, all the way out to the time of Game of Thrones. I mean, listen...

Rhaegar Targaryen all of a sudden starts doing things that seem to his father, the Mad King, as if Rhaegar wants to take control of the government, possibly to usurp him. And he's making all these connections with...

Stark family, with other powerful families at tournaments and things. What's he doing? I think it's plausible to wonder if he found out about the prophecy and thought, my dad can't handle this. He can't. He's crazy. I think I need to take control. There's all these little things like this all throughout the fictional history of this story that make you go, huh, this

I wonder if it's because of this prophecy. And just to remind non-book readers, this isn't in the text at all, right? This is solely in addition to the TV show. This was a reveal from the TV show, but I think it's absolutely reasonable to think that it is something that will be revealed later on

That's really cool.

And Rhaegar says of the child, he is the prince that was promised, is the song of ice and fire. In retrospect, a nod towards the prophecy, but one that I think fans also thought of in the context of Rhaegar's relationship with Lyanna Stark. Rhaegar Targaryen, fire, Lyanna Stark, ice. But this is always something that's been there under the surface, right?

that has only been really revealed in the show in its kind of like, to its full extent. It's really interesting. I mean, so who knows about it at this point? Rhaenyra has mentioned it to Daemon. He did not like hearing about it. No. Viserys had passed it on to Rhaenyra. He is no longer with us. And then he talked to Alicent about it, but she did not know what he was talking about. It was very clear that she didn't understand. Correct.

Correct. I mean, I guess it's possible that Viserys mentioned it to someone else, but that really is, those are the only people we know have been exposed to it. That's right. And you know that there's, going forward, we don't, if Rhaenyra knows about it, we don't know how it then passes on again. Obviously, I guess people could put the cat's paw blade into the fire, right?

Mm-hmm.

Okay, so speaking of things that we are anticipating or hoping for in season two, I think we should put together a little bingo card that we can revisit throughout the season. Each square of the card, of course, is just going to have like a thing we think might happen or that we would like to see or what characters might say in season two. Jason, are you up for this?

I'm up. Okay, so we're going to do eight squares total with one free square in the middle. So, Jason, that means you and I can each choose four things that we want to fill in the squares with. Okay. Jason, do you want to pick the first bingo square? I will pick the first bingo square. Okay.

I need to visualize a bingo board, but okay, here we go. I'm seeing a bingo board. Nice. I'm going to fill a square with dragon death. Ooh, God, what a fun start, Jason. Yeah, number one, dragon death. Okay. Can our second square just be foot stuff?

Is that too weird? I love it. Laris-centric foot stuff or just anyone foot stuff? Well, I guess I do mean Laris-centric foot stuff. But we could keep it more vague if we wanted to. You know, could help out the squares.

Okay. Mistaken identity. Oh, that's such a good one, especially with all that Targaryen hair. Yeah, and there's so many twins running around. Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot. I think Helena Prophecy would be a really fun one to have on. Oh, that'd be great. That'd be great. What's your third one? My third one is going to be surprising friendships. Oh, that's so sweet. Yes.

I was thinking about saying surprise murder. I think there's going to be a lot of that, folks. Surprising friendships is lovely. I think instead of surprising murder, I want to do like a close-up shot of Amon with his eye patch grinning maniacally. Yeah.

That's one of my favorite things so far from season one. And I imagine we're going to get a fair amount of that in season two as well. And then for my final bingo square, shocking romance. We need some love, folks. Where is it going to happen? Where is it going to come from? Who's going to fall in love with who? Where's the passion? Where's the heat?

Great. It's got to be there. We've seen lots of couples already form and break up and reform. It's going to keep going. So who's next? I love that one. For my final bingo square, I am going to pick something that we saw a couple of instances of in season one, and they were some of my favorite episodes. And I hope we continue to see more. And that is like a party that goes terribly wrong. I love it. Yeah.

Yeah, just like a really bad Westeros party. There's nothing like a Westeros wedding. Exactly. Never, ever been anything like it. Yeah, yeah. I think that'll be a good one to have on there too.

Okay, Jason, thank you very much for indulging me with this one. I think it's very fun. So our final bingo card is going to be as follows. Dragon death, foot stuff, mistaken identity, Helena prophecies, surprising friendships, Amon grinning maniacally, shocking romance, a really bad Westeros party, and let's just make our free square Damon's murder cloak. Okay.

Perfect. I think that's going to be really fun. We can see how quickly we can get some bingo cards filled in this season.

That's it for now, folks. We will be back this Sunday, June 16th, right after the season two premiere comes out on HBO and Max. Be sure to subscribe so we are in your podcast feed and ready to go. Yes, we will be unpacking it all with some very special guests. And of course, if you like what you're hearing, don't forget to leave a five star rating and review on your podcast player of choice.

And you can find us on the Game of Thrones and House of the Dragons social media handles. You can also find me at GretaMJohnSen on X and Instagram. And you can find me at NETW3RK on X and Instagram.

The official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon, is produced by HBO in collaboration with Pineapple Street Studios. This podcast is hosted by Greta Johnson and Jason Concepcion. Our executive producers for Pineapple Street are Gabrielle Lewis, J. Ann Barry, and Barry Finkel.

Our lead engineer for the show is Hannes Braun. Pineapple's head of sound and engineering is Raj Makija. Pineapple's senior audio engineers are Marina Pais and Pedro Alvira. This episode is mixed by Hannes Braun. Our editor is Darby Maloney with fact-checking by Melissa Akiko Slaughter. Our producers are Ben Goldberg, Elliot Adler, and me, Jason Concepcion.

Special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt, Alison Cohen, Kenya Reyes, Savon Slater, and Aaron Kelly from the Max Podcast team. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you again soon. There is more than one way to fight a war.