Michael Malice on Soulless Political Demons, Voting Being Useless, & Why Trump Won’t Win
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What's up, everybody? Welcome to Flagrid. And look, the world is in chaos. And there's only one man who can probably make sense of it all. And we got Michael Malice. Hey! Thanks so much, guys. Michael, thank you so much for coming here and being so opinionated about your musical taste. I walked back from the bathroom and there's like a, there's a, there's a pussy.

riot going on out here because mark assumed you like simon and garfunkel why was this offensive because it's like a blood libel like i mean simon and garfunkel you're a big old jew yeah yeah but i have good musical taste i mean some of the jews yeah but you don't think the jews have good musical taste the jews like i'm not here as the representative of the jews well then stop the pot

This is what we need. What's the point of this? Get Rabbi Shmuley in here. I don't think I listen to any music that's older than I am, from 76. Anything before that, I don't really like. Just give us something. Give us something that you like. X-ray. I mean, okay, here's the thing. Here's the trick. I'm not even joking, okay? Yeah. The key to... Don't give me that face. I'm just saying. There's a lot of explaining. There's a lot of explaining going on.

I just asked for a group and you could just tell me the group. You're not going to have heard of them. How do you know I haven't heard of them? X-Ray Specs. I listen to X-Ray Specs. I was there. I was at the concert last night. She died in like 94. There's a recovered band. No, there isn't. Yes, there is. There is a recovered

No, they're recovering. Who are you thinking of? They're recovering. MRI data. Okay. The point is, the key to being a good hipster is listening to music other people have heard of. Are you a hipster? Yes. Is that what these shoes are about? Look at my hair.

I need to understand. Listen, listen, listen. We got to cut this out. The Bumblebee fives, bro. This is nasty work right here, man. Transformer 2s. You are not ready for this. Nasty business right here. I need to understand what was happening before. It was hard to find a shoe to match this retro print. So you stole a homeless guy's shoe? No, I had these shoes for 20 years. 20 years? Yes. That's a Russian shoe.

No, this is not. This is a bowling shoe. This was given out at a brand launch. But it's like Russian. You think they have color in Russia? They have yellow shoes? Yeah, probably not. Maybe, okay. Maybe, maybe not yellow shoes. Are they Pumas? No, they're GBX. Come on, dude. You don't know a fucking GBX guy? This guy, he wears a music band, also makes sneakers? Okay, listen. Can we make

sense of the world. That's a thing though, isn't it? No, but he wore a shiny suit for Diddy. Oh, hell yeah. Oh my God. We had to explain that you weren't Diddy to him earlier before the podcast. Which some people could say is racist. I wouldn't say it is. I still think you're trolling. I'm not really sure. Do you think this is where Diddy's hiding? The one place nobody will find him. I'm on a run right now. He's Alex Meadey. Listen, he's either Diddy or Trudeau. It's one of the two.

It's good. The man is good. The man is good. He does both. He does both. Miles, can you make sense of the world? No. Come on. We brought you here to be completely serious and not use sarcasm at all. No, you didn't. Yes, we did. Yes. That's all we want from you. This is a serious business. Just give us a minute.

Can I tell you a back story? Because this is actually really, really funny. So there's a difference between being angry and having your feelings hurt, right? Yes. So if I lend a friend money and they don't pay me back, I'm angry, right? But if I ask someone for a favor and they don't want to do it, my feelings are hurt. But like, I get it. They don't owe me anything, right? So there were two shows...

that I wanted to do when I was doing the Roller for the White Pill. People who I thought had a good relationship. No one owes me to be on their show. People ask me to be on my show all the time. I don't do it for whatever reason. No one owes me shit. We had a good relationship. There's two people. I reach out to you. I'm like, hey, I'd love to do the show. And you're like, hey, what's the book about? I'm like, oh, The Rise of the Soviet Union. He goes, wow.

That's not even the funniest one. But I get it because I'm like, this is a serious topic. Hold on, hold on. The other person, I text them, they don't respond. I run into them in Austin. I'll tell you who it is off the air. And I'm like, dude, I thought we were cool. Like, you didn't even reply. He goes, you couldn't be nicer. You were messaging my old number. Here's my new number. I'm like, I felt so bad. I text them a new number. Blah, blah, blah. Crickets.

I'm like, God damn it. I thought we were cool. Can we guess who that was? No, I don't want to tell you because I don't want to call them out. They don't owe me anything. Right. But you do. You are. You were a little upset about that. Hurt. Not upset. Hurt. But now are you hurt? Now? Now I'm happy because now it's even funnier. But you know what? I asked you to come here for no reason besides you're being great. Well, OK, I can't think about that. But I can talk. Think about that. Right. I know. We can talk about the Soviet Union. There was a...

There was a horrible terror attack. I saw. In Russia. Yeah. What do you mean you saw? On the internet. Okay. That's the other thing about... Do you think I'm Putin? Is that what I'm doing here? You're on the perfect spot. I look more like Zelensky than Putin. But you could be. You could be controlled opposition. You're here to cause anarchy. Who does that serve more than China and Russia? Israel. Whoa.

Or Israel, a Jew that was sent here to cause it. What the fuck? Wow. This is the problem with smart guys like you. We never know. Like us, Andrew. Don't pull me into that. Are you a fucking Jewish spy? Are we Mossad? Do you think that we would work well? Yes. You don't think so? We would clearly work well. Maybe we are. People tell me I'm in control of opposition online. I always say I'm Mossad. And then they don't know if I'm doing a double troll.

If you were to be controlled by one government in the world, what would it be? America. 100%. Yeah. The best? Why America? Because we're the best country on earth. Talk that shit. Team China. Team China all day. Yeah. Really? Yeah, you see it. I can pass. I'm sorry, is that now?

He says this every week. Tell him, dude, China, we got... What do you like about China? Just the best. That's it. That's it? Yeah. Just like America used to be the best. China, we the best. He calls himself a Chinese synthesizer. That's what he says he is. That's how he says it. And he talks vertically? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Okay. How do we even... Okay. So you would be... We were on a pro-America rah-rah-rah thing. Good. Okay.

Okay, because we love America here. Hell yeah. It's very important that we love it. Are you American yet? What the fuck does that mean? You came from another land. When I was two. Yeah, he's been here decades now. No, I didn't answer the question. I'm just shocked that you'd ask me. Let's move on. Yes, of course, I'm a citizen. 100%. Okay, and you got the citizenship test and everything? No, I was a legal alien, which I thought as a kid was the funniest shit ever. My parents take it, and you become a citizen. Oh, you get the easy, yeah. Yeah. You didn't really even, we don't even know. Well, the easy one is just crossing the border. I mean, we did the easiest. Yeah.

Well, we did the easiest. We were born here. Yeah. The easiest. Oh, really? That's the easy way. You don't know how hard it was for us. You, on the other hand, we don't really know if you're loyal to America. Your parents, yes. But you, we don't know. My parents probably more suspect than me. Why? Because they weren't raised here. Wait a minute. Are you still considering yourself a New Yorker now that you've abandoned us for Texas? I haven't learned how to drive yet. So, yes. What do you do? I take Ubers. Yeah. Everywhere? Everywhere.

Well, where I walk, yeah. Wow. Yeah, it's not that crazy. Hey, do you get... I'm going to ask you a question. Do you get annoyed when people move to New York and then after five years, they're like, suddenly, I'm so New York, I'm a New Yorker. Does that bother you as someone who actually grew up here? Yes, but here's my rule. You know you're a real New Yorker if...

something happens on the subway and you know what plan B is without having to look at the map. That's my, when you know you're a New Yorker. Well, the yes part, I kind of feel that way about Texans suddenly moving to Austin, which isn't even really Texas and being like, Texas, I'm a Texan. I'm a Texan. I'm a born and raised Dallas kid.

So I'm here. I'm not a New Yorker. I'll never claim New York. This place, I hate. And Texas doesn't claim you. Texas claims me. Austin might not claim you because y'all ain't Texas. I'm not for a sweatshirt, though. I assure you. Damn. Damn. How do you reverse this? How do you move those cards? I don't trust you because you're a New Yorker now. From a New Yorker, I'll take that.

From a Texan, you're not a Texan. Can't let him do this to me. You think you're a Texan in them fucking shoes? You think you're a Texan in them fucking shoes and the mint socks? Don't talk about my sweatshirt and mint socks, my friend. I'm not wearing these shoes in Texas. I'm wearing them in New York. You don't wear those in Texas? No, they were on a shelf. You don't wear boots? I have my seal fur boots that I was going to wear here. Why don't you wear them? Because I couldn't figure out an outfit to work with the seal fur boots.

I swear to God. That's what you couldn't figure out? Well, I, like, when am I, the thing is in Austin, it's never cold. So I have these fucking boots that I got through from Estonia and they're fucking sitting on my shelf and I don't know what to do with them. Got it. Buy cowboy boots. That's what you wear with a suit as a Texan. I can't pull off cowboy boots because just because I'm a Texan is because I'm a cowboy. Oh, there are other versions of Texans. Yes. See, as a Texan, I'm understanding. You're an Austin Texan. That's the kind you are, which is not really, not really. But you're here. I'm here.

I know. You got to go in a different angle. And you pronounce it Houston Street, whereas it's Houston Street. You actually said it earlier as Houston Street. Yeah, because I'm in New York. Now that you're on camera, don't shift it up. Wait, you called it Houston Street?

Yeah, he tried to do a joke and he called it Houston. Okay, okay, just making sure. He was like, I've been in Texas so long, I call it Houston Street. I fucked it up off the camera, but I fixed it on camera. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're a fraud, dude, and I'm on you. You're a fraud. Damn, you really fucking riled up.

I haven't seen him this. Why do you rile everyone up? Yeah. Why do you rile everybody up? What is the purpose of all this? What are you seeking? What is it you really want? Entertainment. All right, guys. Life tour announcement. Atlantic City, man. Thank you all so much for selling out the show. At the end of the summer, we are adding another one. So we're adding a second date. Very excited about that. We have more dates that are up right now. I will see you guys at Rancho Mirage.

the Agua Caliente Casino. That's going to be crazy. A bunch more dates that are available for you guys to go get tickets for those that are not sold out yet. Man, thank you guys so much for buying all these. And dandrashills.com. Go grab them. Also, guys, dates real quick. May 31st and June 1st, St. Louis. June 7th and 8th, Indianapolis. June 21st and 22nd, Raleigh, North Carolina. June 28th

and 29th Buffalo, July 26th and 27th Jacksonville, September 6th and 7th Vegas, September 12th and 13th and 14th Miami, Florida. Guys, get your tickets for those shows and more at akashsingh.com. We're going to keep adding. We are not fucking stopping, guys. We're going to keep going. I'll see you out there, akashsingh.com.

What do you think about X? What is the future of X? I love X. Yeah. It lends itself to your skills, though. Yeah. Thank you. I think the great thing about X is people are always like, look, a majority of people don't agree with us. We're fucked. I go, you don't need a majority. You need an alternative.

So if there had been one social media site, for example, during COVID, where scientists could be like, this isn't making sense. I don't mean us randos. I mean, people like Dr. Drew being like, I don't understand this. And without having fear of being censored, right away, the whole dynamic changes. Can you walk me through the logic behind it?

Okay, walk me through both logic. Logics? Yeah, logic. Okay, walk me through both arguments, right? Walk me through the argument that's like, hey, the Don Lemon argument, which is like, hey, this platform should be responsible for the information on it. And then walk me through the opposite. I know it's an eye roll, but just take me through the thinking for both of them. And if you could make your best argument for both.

I can steal men. I just don't want to call it the Don Lemon argument because I think Don Lemon is like a soulless demon. Sure, sure, sure. And who's just a very evil, malevolent person who's imminent homeless. In a rational society, he'd be like living in fear for his life. So let's not call it the Don Lemon argument. Let's just call it the blue pill argument. You're getting more texts in the morning. You better run, boy. You're not in a position to make that. Yeah.

Just fucking digging the grave, dude. You've got to stand up for yourself, man. I'm too much of a New Yorker now. I can't stand up for myself. I'm a New Yorker. I'll lock down. Okay, go, go, go, go. So the argument is, it's a not complicated argument, that crazy ideas are often attractive to people because they're innovative. You've never heard it before. And it's like smoking cigarettes in school.

You want to be the ones like, look at me, I'm smoking a cigarette at school and getting away with it. So it can snowball and lead to crazy kind of consequences, which especially people who are marginalized in some way, they're the ones who are going to pay the price because they can't speak up for themselves, right? That's the not Don Lemon argument. That is the argument for some form of censorship on the platform. For some form of consensus, right, right. The other argument is the person, and this isn't the argument that's popularly made, but it's the argument I would make,

The smartest person on earth is going to be ignorant of 99% of knowledge. So even if you're brilliant, like I can know, I can be a very smart guy. If I go to a farm, that farmer, let's suppose there's a farm where the guy's really dumb, he's going to run circles around me about the farming and produce and all these other things. It's not even going to be a question or any other circumstance where someone who may be not as bright as me can run circles around me in any field. Yeah.

So when you have someone who's going to be the censor, how are they... Like any filter, you want to keep out stuff that you don't want and allow stuff that goes in. But it's going to be really hard to set up that field to make sure what gets through is what should get through. And how do you make sure those people aren't corrupt? Right. So it's really this kind of very arrogant...

attitude that doesn't really work. And the other thing is, these people are living in a world where the internet doesn't exist. Because if you just control four or five outlets, you can't just censor the internet. If we could, we wouldn't have child porn. That's a really obvious example. A complete consensus, or until five minutes ago, that child pornography is an abomination, we can't have it. But the FBI doesn't have, I think it's the FBI, CIA, whatever group it was, they don't have enough agents to fight...

Babies, videos of babies being assaulted. So this is, if you want to talk about free speech and like this is something we all agree on, or most of us, the sane ones, and yet we can't even control that. So they think they have a monopoly on the mic and they don't. So then, just so I can clarify, the argument is essentially it is impossible to properly control

police speech. Therefore, the better option is to not police it at all. Well, especially when it comes to political discourse. Yeah. Got it. Okay. So then it's not really this argument of or this discussion about. And I'm also going to say we got to try what we can to fight. I'm not saying we should have child. No, no, no. I just want to be clear. I didn't want to position in terms of child violence.

I want to position more, because I think a lot of people obviously are looking at this as a binary. Censorship's only good if it actually works. And it's impossible to get it to work. And because it's impossible to get it to work, the lesser of these two, and I don't even want to call them evil. Situations, yeah. The lesser of these two situations is a complete lack thereof.

Right. And that's assuming that, right. I think that's a better argument. And I think that's way more digestible because I think a lot of times the way it's positioned is this is, this leads to all good and there are no problems with this at all. And then people start chipping away and go, hey, there are some problems. People don't understand trade-offs in this country. But the other thing is, this is also assuming. Is that an American cultural thing? Yes. Just one more thing. People also assume, that's also what I just said, assumes that the people in power are genuinely good people who want everything well, as opposed to they should be hanging from lampposts.

Can you look up the C.S. Lewis quote, C.S. Lewis conscience? If the worst thing about our government is that it's like people are getting bribes, we'd be in a utopia.

Really?

than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber barons' cruelty may sometimes sleep, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. So I don't think the people in government are corrupt. I think they are fundamentally evil and depraved. And one of the things I talk about in my book, The White Pill, is they were covering up genocides.

And there's no question of like, let's suppose, God forbid, we did something where like millions of people died and we fucked it up. We would be like, like, even we're just chefs. We undercook a chicken, someone dies.

For the rest of our lives, we'd be like, how did I fucking get this wrong? The next day, we got to sit down. This can never happen again. But there's never this thing of how do we fuck it up? They don't feel guilt. They don't feel remorse. They are fundamentally depraved. And I think part of the work I've been doing is people in America who are naive about the nature of evil, who think it's a guy with a mustache banging his fist on the table, when it's really that bureaucrat who won't give you medicine just because they have a little bit of

they're starting to realize, oh, it's not just fucking Hunter Biden getting a fucking job. These people are fundamentally, here's another- - And you think, sorry to interrupt, but you think it's because they've convinced themselves they're doing it for our own good. Vivek said this about the- - Manjuro class. - The Manjuro class. - Yes, but there's, here's like another example, like this, let's talk about this, like the kiddie stuff.

I was thinking with like, okay, maybe it's like someone's got a crush on high school cheerleaders and there's a conversation about the sexualization of teens in America. And then you see a CNN's producer was arrested because he was bragging on a message board, not even talking about how this message board exists, about the infants he was assaulting. And it's like, guy, I tried to meet you halfway, but

But that is a level of evil that I don't think anyone in this room can wrap their heads around. Yeah. Yeah. I think most of us assume it just doesn't exist. Right. And it exists a lot. And I think these people do it just because they can. This Epstein Island shit. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, continue on this. This is actually really interesting. So you're saying that there's a group of people, and not a group of people that even know one another, but they all have that same lust for power and they have the same sociopathy that allows them to have no guilt or remorse about the people they hurt? And they do evil because they can and they enjoy getting off on it. But is it pathological? Yes. I don't think it can fix them. Interesting. So, no, no, meaning the...

doing evil, does it in some way bring them joy or making the decisions? It makes them feel powerful. And they are powerful because if you commit, if I kill someone and I get away with it, I'm at a whole other level than normal people. Can you give us names of people that you think would fall under this description that we would be aware of?

Congress? I think many people in Congress. But I mean, I think a lot of times Congress is just the public face, don't you? I think most of them are. But I think that just because you're a public face doesn't mean that you don't have a lust for power. I think- I think if you get into government, there is a lust for it. I agree. I think if you look at

powerful names in Hollywood. Some of these rumors get through, you know, these names get named. Yeah. And I think that a lot of these people's faces, we wouldn't know. We wouldn't know. Like, I bet you they released Epstein's book. Yeah.

We wouldn't know half of these people's names. You're saying the true power brokers that we don't understand. Because there's the power of like, look, I'm a celebrity, I'm famous. Which is not what they're interested in. Of course. Right. Because it's not real power. Right. Does anyone really think Biden's running the fucking federal government? Who does run the federal government? I don't fucking know. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. Does anyone really think it's Biden? No. No one thinks this with a straight face. You could say Trump sucks, I want Biden, I want Sandy in the White House, but he's not making these fucking decisions. He's only deciding when to ring the bell when his diaper's

So again, bringing it a lot. I don't think any anybody's making. Even when Trump was president, I think that there are a bunch of people that are assisting him in making the decisions. I think that that would be the same case for any business. Right. You're going to have a board of executives that are going to help you make these decisions. And ultimately, you're going to have to make the fucking tough ones. And that is the responsibility of the president. I don't know if Biden is even doing it. Sure. He's a figurehead. Fine. Fine.

The fact that we don't even know the people that are advising him is a little bit concerning, right? I mean, would it make a difference if we did? I think so. How? What power do we have? It's not about power. It's about holding people accountable. There's no accountability. No, no, no. I'm saying us as voters. Oh, God, voters. No, no, no. Listen, listen, listen. In some of this, you have to submit to the illusion of the democracy, right? If you...

If you're going to submit all you want, I'm the one getting the blowjob. Not submit, meaning you have to take part in it. But in order to properly communicate with the people that are reading your books, they believe in a system, right? So you have to at least meet them halfway at the system they believe in before you can tell them, hey, all this shit is bullshit, right? Yeah.

- Oh, I see what you're saying. - The most effective communication. - Sure, sure, yes. - Like if- - No, I get you, you're talking there in their house, not in your house. - Exactly, right? - 100%. - And then once they understand your house, now you don't need to talk about your house at all. - Correct, correct, that's fair. - You at least need to invite them in. - Yes. - So the idea for- - That's a great way to explain persuasion to people, yes. Superb, yes. - So right now we have, for this Biden situation, I think the average person is probably the closest they've ever been, the average person that's in their house is the closest they've ever been to your house. Meaning they're knocking on the door going, wait, yeah- - I'll tell them in one sentence.

We're not voting our way out of this. What does that mean? It means just think about it. Like if you think that this choice you make in November, like if you make, you have to look at it really carefully. And if you make that right choice, this problem is going to be resolved or even ameliorated. If you stop and think about it for five minutes, I don't think anyone who's quasi rational with a straight face would be like, wait, that makes no sense. Yeah.

But explain what you mean by- Meaning that if you have Biden again, or if you have Trump- We're in the same predicament. Right. So you don't see Trump as this great escape, this great rescue from- We ran that experiment. Like, I don't understand. It's not like he wasn't president before. So why do people see it as such? Because they're told that there's this binary.

Right. And if you don't like this team, you just got it. You got to like the other one. Like people were told with a straight face that if you vote for Jill Stein, you're a Trump supporter, like green party people. So, and you're, um, uh, what's his name? Noam Chomsky, who's another anarchist who are waiting to die so I can climb the ladder and be, no, Russell Brand standing in my way. So it's, it's, it's Noam Chomsky, Russell and then me. So at least I'm on the platform. Noam Chomsky has this whole point about the way to control the population is to have, uh,

very intense debate, but within strictly delimited parameters. Right? So the answer is always going to be between like five and six and one through five and six through ten. And it doesn't matter who wins. Right. Oh, it's genius. Yeah. So give us an example. I'll give you one example. Yeah, give me a real world example. Who was a great guy. I don't know if you guys have him on the show. I had him on my show. He goes, it's like you turn on CNN and the question is, do we bomb the fuck out of Syria or do we bomb the living fuck out of Syria? Yeah. And that's the range. The view, you know, the Karen mothership. That's the range.

That was Jimmy's example that he put together? The Syria. But the view, let me talk about the view. I was just going to give Jimmy credit. Oh, Jimmy's great. Yeah, Jimmy's amazing. So on the view, Kurt Metzger, who I'm sure you've heard of, he goes, there's a reason I call the views. The view is you have Whoopi and Joy hard left on one side. And the closest thing you had to a Trump supporter was Meghan McCain, who denounced Trump at her dad's eulogy. But if you're watching this as a female, that's your range of acceptable opinions.

So the way my friend put it was CNN is what you're supposed to think and Fox is what you're allowed to think. But other than that, like that's your little box. And labeling these other sides as extreme left or extreme right, is this all part of that? Exactly. Because that's the end of the box, right? You know where the borders are. So what are some solutions? Because you sound very black pill. No, I'm...

- It's a white pill. Well, the first step is diagnosis, right? Once you realize a lot of this- - You can't start treatment for the cancer if you don't admit you have it. - Right, yes, or recognize you have it, yeah. - Yeah, that's really interesting. We're debating something in such close proximity that if there were a powers that be, they really wouldn't give a fuck which side it went to. - You guys know magicians, right? So the guy's dangling his keys here while he's picking your pocket. Oh my, well, look at these keys. - Yeah. So do we not have a civic duty to vote?

Come to our house. Come to our house. Come to our house first. Come on, you're just laughing at us. We can't go into your house if you just laugh at us. Come to our house. There's some kid that's listening that just turned 18 that's like, man, I can't wait to vote in this election. He's involved in his community. Yeah. We just got the right not too long ago. Yeah, exactly. Chinese people can vote now? Yeah. Come on, talk to me. But not in China. No, no, no. Oh, no, they can vote from now. All right, yeah. Yeah.

I would never tell, I'm not even joking, I would not tell someone, especially a black person, not to vote because it does mean something for certain communities, like in all seriousness. Yeah. But the opportunity cost, that time it spends you to vote, you could be adopting a dog, reading to an old person who's lonely. Bombing a postal office. Not the, I can't advocate like violence against the government on camera, but I'd also don't know how to finish the sentence. Post office bomb, zero people dead. Who?

Who bonds up fucking postal? Postal workers. They don't go to work. They go postal. Have you ever heard the expression go postal? Imagine they went in there as just the co-workers. Yeah, but that was free Amazon. That was free Amazon. You've got to bond the Amazon. Don't do it. Don't do it. Michael Malice's fans. Don't do it. In all seriousness, the alternative is...

and be the best person you can be, be an asset to your community, be a good dad or friend or whatever. And that is the alternative to this facade and not buying in. There's not that much. The lie of democracy is this idea that like the president really cares about what you think. Like there's, how can he care about 300 million people? It doesn't make sense. So have the kind of serenity prayer, know what you have control over and maximize what you have control over to the best of your ability. Tolstoy had a book,

I read. He's also an anarchist. Yeah, anarchist. The kingdom of God is within you, which is we don't need government, but essentially we all follow Christ's nonviolence. And if everybody buys into that, then non-government is possible.

But you still have kind of some authority there, which is God, Christ, whatever. This is how we should all act in a moral way. And now we don't need government. You don't seem to have that. And I really do like what you're saying theoretically, but there's nothing higher that we are called to to act morally. Does that make sense? That's exactly correct. Well, I have it. There's a Tolstoy essay in the Anarchist Handbook. He was this.

It's garbage anyway. He was a Christian anarchist. Yes, he was a Christian anarchist. And that's, I remember reading that book and being like, yo, this is great. And he also seemed to kind of solve the problem of what still ends up governing our authority, which is God. But I mean, the other issue is government is doing a very good job, especially in cities,

of protecting criminals from their consequences, not protecting law-abiding citizens. So as a Texan, one of the reasons I lived in Texas now is if someone breaks into my house, I don't have to worry about protecting my home where I could shoot them. Whereas here, I'd be the one going to jail. And that's a complete inversion of basic decency of any society. Now, I'm not questioning your disdain of the government. I completely get that. What I'm asking for is...

No, I'm just saying we need security. A lot of people think anarchism means if you abolish the government monopoly of policing. I'm just clarifying for them. That's like, oh, you think everyone's going to be nice and no one's going to be a criminal. No, I'm just saying- I think it's important to clarify. Yeah, it's just important to know that, like, no, criminals aren't going to be able, on the street every five minutes, they're going to be dealt with. My fear of what you believe is the more you dive into it, there's still, like I've heard you say, music is anarchy. There is no governing body in music. But the second you try to-

make money in music the music industry is incredibly corrupt diddy is being charged for unspeakable crimes you are but the idea you're one of those oh don't put that diddy jacket on me but if the jacket don't fit you must acquit me but in a capitalist society

In a capitalist society, especially once financial reward is there, everybody's very corruptible and local government even then can be just as corruptible as- Not for local government. What do you mean? Or local governance or whatever. Whoever is that power within that small tribe, whoever gets power-

is essentially a dictator. I think he's saying no power. I think he's saying be a good neighbor. Let's talk about the music thing. So I'm saying that music is an anarchist system because you don't have to listen to any music. You don't want to. Anyone can create music. No one's saying it has to have four-four time. It has to have an F clef, whatever, S clef. I don't fucking know. So cuisine is another example. These are systems where millions of people over centuries voluntarily interacted, each contributed. You can take part in it. You cannot take part in it. Cuisine is not completely anarchist. Yes, it is. No. How is it not? Who's the government?

The FDA? I mean, there's a difference between cuisine, meaning recipes, and you can create whatever you want. The point is governments interject themselves, but they're not creators or the ones who are making the system thrive. I thought you were talking about currently what is happening in the culinary arts in America. There are things you just can't eat. Okay. You can't have non-pasteurized cheese. Right. My point is, sure, and there's that weird cheese from Italy with the maggots. Point being...

cuisine how it was created, language how it was created, music how it was created. - Historically, sure. I thought we were talking about-- - So people say, "Where does anarchism exist?" Anarchism is a type of government. - Got it. - It is a relationship. And the creation of these systems across time, across the world, across centuries are examples of anarchism in practice. - So for example, with food, if you sell people food that kills them, eventually people stop buying your food and then that restaurant, that food booth, whatever it is, no longer exists.

Sure, but that's not really an example of cuisine. I'm just talking about the way that French cuisine developed, the way that now I can cook French cuisine in America if I just follow these recipes. No one's putting a gun to my head. No one's forcing me to add eight sticks of butter if I want to make a croissant. These were all developed voluntarily through mutual interaction over time. So that is what anarchism means in practice. People always say, well, it's never happened, doesn't exist. It's not a type of government. It's not a type of

country. It's a type of relationship where there's no governing authority overseeing its development. Language is another example of this. And I'm not even trying to pick at you. I'm actually trying to make the connection, just for them also. I don't disagree with what you're saying. I just, in my brain, I'm struggling with the practical application, especially with capitalism. With capitalism, doesn't there need to be some kind of governance? Right, but the point is, if it

Security is far too important to allow it for any monopoly, especially a government monopoly. It's absolutely insane that in 2020, the police said, we're not protecting you. And the people who did try to protect their communities were the ones who were arrested. That's what happens when you have a monopoly on security. If you have a monopoly on food, people are starving. If you have a monopoly on education, people don't know how to read.

So when you say cuisine, when you say music, you don't mean how they're distributed within a country. You just mean the creation, the history of these things. Got it. That's where I was a little bit confused. Because within different countries, there are different rules about cuisine. In Canada, you can't have a medium rare hamburger or something like that. But anarchism teaches that these rules are not morally legitimate. Right. Got it, got it.

Okay, now I'm understanding. So there are these things that exist within the pure anarchist system. Yes. And then your argument would be governments corrupt them. Yes. And even the most pure anarchistic things can still be corrupted by a monopolistic approach from the government. Just like it's insane that in New York, I can't defend my own home.

against a violent intruder. It's absolutely crazy. And it's only government that can make that happen. And give me the argument. If you were to make the argument, I know this is an eye roll, but if you were to make the argument for the government,

What would you say? My strongest argument for government is food stamps. In that specific one about defending your own home. What would your... Okay, if I had to steal... So here's the other thing. I'm going to answer the question in one second. A good way to know if someone is full of shit or if they're someone worth talking to is can you give the opposing position as strongly as possible? And if they can't, walk away. Because they're full of shit. Because they're either full of shit or they're in bad faith or their brain doesn't work that way.

I can make the case. The case is, we all know, just walking around New York, there's lots of crazy people. There's lots of people who just broke up with their wife and they want to come back and do something about it. There's lots of kids. Do you want it to be the case where every crazy homeless person has access to a gun? No one's going to get killed? So that's the steel man argument for that. And then you would even acknowledge that...

There is some sense to that. Yes, of course. Like I don't want every little crazy person to be in a position where they can just go and shoot up a school with no repercussions. Another example is in New York, for example, like building laws, right? Maybe I'm sure in Texas or other places where you just have your property, you can more or less build whatever you want

I'm sure there's some bureaucracy you have to deal with. But in New York, everybody, somebody's next door, above you, below you. You have to consider them a little bit more. The fire department coming in, there might be a closet that you put, but it's not on the map, et cetera. So there are other people that deal with the repercussions of your building negligence, if you will.

So you acknowledge that maybe in certain cities or certain places, do you think should have more regulation or how would you solve for that problem? I think the regulation is a big problem in terms of you're not allowing enough people to build. So the rents are going to be artificially high and this fucks over poor people the most. Oh, no, no, not in that regard. Like, how would you solve that problem? Like you have the gun one in the city where these crazy people could get guns. So you want to limit guns in some way for your safety. Would you just take the risk?

Well, no, I think the issue is, you know, you have to limit the crazy people. So the fact that you have these public streets and these guys can walk around when nothing's being done to them is the problem. That's interesting. Okay, so that's- What was that guy who got- Jordan, what was his name? Jordan Neely, who was the one who was like- Yeah. He just punched an old lady in the face and broke her orbital socket and then he's out in the street. What the fuck are we talking about? Okay, so who decides-

Crazy and how long you should be locked down for being crazy. Well, I don't know be locked down I think it'd be much more function of if society's private then you just can't walk around wherever you want and

What do you mean by that? Meaning like public streets force you that literally anyone can do anything on the streets and you have to put up with their bullshit. If it's like a bar or if it's like Costco, you got to make sure you pass a certain criteria to be able to even step foot in here. So exile would be a very good way. So what would New York City look like in an anarchist, ideal anarchist system? It would be a crater.

No, no, no. Break it down. So like New York, the thing is, like I can't answer that question, but I'll answer in a way that you'll be happy with my non-answer. After communism fell in Eastern Europe, right? Let's suppose the capital of Budapest, Hungary, right?

all the restaurants had been government controlled, right? Then the free market came in. If I asked you how many restaurants agree in Budapest, what cuisines, you would have no idea. And neither would I. We don't know. We know there would be restaurants and we diverse and maybe there'd be some Russian ones. Maybe there'd be Chinese ones like you like or whatever. Who knows? The point is you can't, if you could plan

what people would decide to do, it would be a lot simpler, but we can't predict that. You know what it's like? It's like when you have sci-fi and people go to other planets and it's like snake people and all their buildings look like scales and tails. It's like, we don't have buildings that look like hands and feet. We don't know what that would look like in a society built by snake people because we haven't run the experiment. So we don't know what a New York would look like where it's far less regulated. Yeah, that's my only, you use the term wrap your mind around. That's my only struggle with

this idea of anarchy is I can't wrap my mind around what it would look like. And that is terrifying to me because it's so unknown and the anarchy could lead to anarchy. But the thing is, every...

what are presented as the strongest arguments about anarchism are inevitably descriptions of the status quo. So the concern is that it might lead to anarchy where people are burning streets, like cop stations down and burning down the street and no repercussions to them. We saw that. That happens now. Yeah. So for me, it's not about what it looks like. It's what it looks like privatized because I think that was the solution that you put forth. So is Times Square essentially privatized now?

Yeah. And then entrance to Times Square is decided by whoever owns Times Square. Or it could be just large- Like a Disneyland or something like that. It could be the default as anyone can go, but a lot of these stores, once you get arrested, you're trespassed. You can't go to Walmart. So you break it once, you're not going back. Right. Interesting. Or it could be twice, or it could be three times. You know what I mean? Whatever that group that lives in Times Square decides. Okay, okay. It's just-

These are one of those things where it's like you thought out these thought experiments and the average person has not considered it at all. So I'm just trying to like build foundation. But I'll just give a very easy metaphor. The places where we are least safe, all of us, are the places that are under government control. The subways...

Alley's public parks, whereas places like hotels where everyone is doesn't even live there. Bars full of young drunken men full of alcohol are still safer than these places where the government has control over security. Can you give us an example of a place that is frequented by as many people that is private?

that is not as dangerous as the subway. Because I think that that's also just- Yeah, there you go. Burning Man. Yeah, yeah. Burning Man is amazing. It is anarchy. But it's still not even close to as many people as a subway. I guess what I'm saying is these- Walmart. These public places that you're mentioning are frequented by millions of people, whereas the private ones you mentioned- McDonald's. McDonald's is shit. Hold on, hold on, hold on. If McDonald's was allowed to have private security-

If you had-- if restaurants were allowed to have bouncers who could actually do something, you wouldn't have any of this f-cking craziness.

How about malls? Because malls have security. And I think there's been shootings at malls and movie theaters. What's the argument for them not having private security? Because the government has a monopoly. But what is the steel man for them in that situation? I don't know. I don't have a good steel man on this one. Maybe I'm full of shit, but I don't even know the argument about how, why it's not allowed. Because bars have them? But they don't have like security in the sense of arrest powers. They could just kick you out.

God, all they can do is control entrance. They can't really, which you can do. So I don't know what the argument, I'm sure there is a fairly decent one. I don't know what it is. That's interesting because that seems like an absolute no brainer, right? Right. Because we have versions of this, right? You have a doorman for a building. The doorman, yes. Well, I know what it is. I think it's that- Level of security. It's like if you just hire anybody off the street to be a security guard and then they, that power goes to their head. Now it's like, oh, I'm shooting somebody just because they- Oh, if you're giving them the authority to shoot. Yeah, it's like- But that's just describing the cops. But to-

Yeah, but at least they go through formal training and even that sometimes lets them down. Imagine if you go through zero formal training and then you're given- No, but I would imagine they would have some kind of licensing, right? Some private licensing. So then that's- That would be some criteria. Yeah, now that's somebody controlling. But there's like- That thing is body. No, but it's like- That's government body. But there's like ex-military people, right? There's a lot of them who could be doing great jobs in their communities. Also trained by the government.

Sure, but the point is they have the capacity to provide security. I mean, I learned if someone learns how to read in like a government school, like it's not like everything that they write as a novelist is going to be a function of the government. Right. Yeah, yeah. Okay, okay, okay. No, this does make sense. I think we need more security and I think it's the government's job to keep us insecure.

And that's something as a Texan I've appreciated that a lot of people I walk around are packing and I feel a lot safer in Austin than I do here. Really? Yes. Interesting. And do you feel culturally like when you're in Texas? You don't feel safer in Texas? No. Really? There are more mass shootings and I'm an actual Texan and there are more mass shootings in Texas than most states. Yeah, but day to day.

Like, I do not feel like the same way on the subway here as opposed to walking around there. But you're not even seeing close to as many people. If I see big guns on people's hips, like, that scares me. Okay. That's not something I would want to see. Like, go to the park and just see AK-47s. Like, there's a shopping center in Allen I used to go to a lot as a kid. There was a mass shooting there a year ago. And it's crazy. My parents live five minutes from there. I'm like...

And now I went back after we had to go do something. We just went to the area. It's a fucking ghost town now. There was a place where everybody's allowed to have guns. There was a mass shooting. Now no one goes there. All these businesses are suffering. Even in kind of a you govern yourself type of place where it's like, yeah, we all got guns, open carry. The idea is anybody pops off, there's going to be somebody here with a gun. Something popped off, nobody was there. And I'm not a super gun control guy, but I know that. So the subway station that was across you from my house here in Brooklyn-

that I lived for like 17 years was the one that the guy shot up, like after I left. And how you shoot up a subway station and not kill anyone, now you're a real fuck up, right? Point being, I don't have a good answer for this. And anyone who says they have an easy answer is full of it. We have mass shootings in areas like that. We have mass shootings in areas here where there is the strictest gun control. And I don't have a good answer. I don't think anyone does. Your argument is I'd rather the freedom if it's going to happen in both places. Yes.

Which I think is reasonable. If we found out that it happened the same amount, if we found out that it happened way more on one side, let's say it happened way more here. We go, hey, we're doing something wrong. Maybe we should let some people have guns. I don't think people would. I think people just double down. Of course. I'm not saying what they do is rational. I'm just saying we could look at some data and then we could adjust it accordingly.

Yeah, this is interesting. Okay, okay, okay. I kind of want to learn more about this. What are other, where do you come up with this? Where do you come up with your ideas? Yeah, no, no. I'm trying to like, how does this enter your brain? Like you're a kid who grows up in Brooklyn. Sure. There's no reason why you should hate bureaucracy if you're going through what everyone else is going through in the city. Is it your ties to Russia and your parents being from there? That's from Assad. Yeah.

This is what Israel tells you. No, I mean, it's like you're leaving a place with tons of governing government authority and then seeing how that went. No, but I think there's plenty of Russians who left the Soviet Union who don't think like I do. So that's not really... Are you familiar with Cubans in America? Oh, of course. Okay, so Cubans, they're awesome, right? And they have this, obviously, they hear the tales of what happened in their country. And because of that, they're usually very conservative, right? Because they're like anything even close to socialism, nexus communism, they're

Then we're fucked. I remember exactly. One of the greatest moments of my life was being able to tell my Cuban friend that Castro had died. It was a great day. I'm like, dude, he's dead. He's like, what? He didn't even know? He didn't know. I was the first one. I'm like, dude, dude, dude, dude. He's not gonna get on his WhatsApp, yo. Okay. So is this the same for you or it enters you in a completely different way? It's...

Okay, it's a very boomer thing that this idea that socialism leads to communism. That's only happened in Venezuela. It's never happened anywhere else. And communism always comes about as a relative revolution. And it's kind of this Greta Thunberg hockey stick. Eventually socialism becomes communism. That's never actually happened.

There's no examples of this. It's always a revolution. So that's not a big concern of mine. But my big concern is a totalitarian mindset that is spread very consciously throughout the population. And we saw it.

pretty much on COVID, where one of the things I learned when I was writing the white pill is when you had these like secret police in these countries, I would have thought, okay, Andrew's arrested. He's being held at gunpoint. They're like, name names. He's like malice. He's like, I gotta name a name or else they're gonna kill me and my family. It's not even hard. I don't even blame you. What I learned is

People were tripping over themselves to snitch. They couldn't wait. They couldn't wait. They weren't given a lot of money. They wanted someone to, they wanted to feel important. This surprised you about humanity though? Yes. And they wanted to feel heard.

And then when COVID happened, we saw it. It's power. People were bragging. Oh, I got this person fired or kicked out of the store. Put them on fucking social media. They were ecstatic. Yeah, I think it's a couple of things. I think they want to feel important. They want to feel heard. But I also think it's you've given power to a group of people that have had none. Right. And a lot of power. Yes. Fire someone. They finally feel important. Cancel someone. Yes. Yeah. Destroy somebody. Yes. That is...

Intoxicate. Especially for white women. It's tied to an ideology of morality. Yeah, you get to be a hero while you fire these people. It's not just data. It's like, if you do this, you're a good person. Right. So they weaponized morality. But I would say that this is just human instinct. And they found a way to put the carrot in front of them. Yes. And then they gave them the sticks. Isn't that crazy? We'll do it all.

You don't even need, like human beings will do everything. It's not like you need to make all these phone calls and have this like, people think that the CIA is tapped into every single school and every single country and all these computers and everything is, no, no, no. You just need to put the carrot in front of them

And we will walk towards that fucking carrot. No dictatorship ever had like a huge percentage of the population as the police. You can't afford it. It's always going to be a small number. Then everyone else picks up the slack. So even the Soviet Union, where the idea is that everybody was listening on every phone call, it wasn't that way at all. Well, no, they were listening in. But the point is, if this was the Soviet Union, one of us would be KGB.

Like they would, they would flip one of those. And once you got one. Yeah, you're set. Or what they would do in East Germany, the Stasi, they would put someone in here. That person would be like, we should overthrow the government. The rest of us were like, dude, you're crazy. But then we're all arrested because we had someone in our group saying we should overthrow the government. So it was intentional setups. Yes, yes. I talk about this a lot in the book. All these tactics they use, they're very, very clever. So were you not as cozy to anarchist ideals before COVID? No.

No, I mean, the anarchist handbook came out before COVID. COVID just demonstrated to what extent the inside every slave beats the heart of a tyrant. To what extent people who are low on the totem pole are desperate to find ways to climb that ladder at the expense of the fellow man. Like to see it played out in America was to that extent was very surprising to me. How do you think quickly and easily it was? How do you think COVID would have looked had everyone had more of an anarchist relationship within them?

Well, kids wouldn't be wearing masks for no reason in school, for one. I think there'd be less, there'd be more opportunities for people, for kids to get educated, more spaces for kids to kind of not have to go through the bullshit. I mean,

And the Steelman argument was, and I still can't wrap my head around it, but this was the Steelman argument, that children who can't get COVID have to get a shot that they don't need every six months for the rest of their lives. And I don't understand how you're going to make this case to me. Shots are traumatic for kids. It's not fun. We all were kids. We all had shots. I can't wrap my head around it. Yeah. Yeah. And the fact that there wasn't a place where people could...

push back on any of these ideas is a little bit frustrating. Jimmy Kimmel, who is, whatever, was on TV joking and the audience laughed about if you're not getting vaccinated, you shouldn't get medical treatment. If you have to die, well, that's too bad. Ha ha ha. Yeah. That is evil. Yeah.

Yeah. Like if you're just joking about people like, like regular people, let's suppose they're idiots who just got brainwashed because Joe Rogan ate horse paste. Yeah. Like, and you're like, well, you're going to die. It's like, you're, we are, we have a problem here. Yeah. Hmm. So,

So suspicions you had about humanity are confirmed. Not just me, but now everyone else. You can't deny this. Sure, sure. I'm just saying. So they're confirmed. Did you think that culturally America was different? Yes. Because that's why it was so surprising? Okay. I thought. What did you think was different culturally about us? The independent thinking? I thought there'd be a lot more Texans who were like, fuck this. We're not doing this.

And the thing is, whether by design or not, a lot of very, very evil people have a lot of very useful information about the limits of American submission and docility. What does that mean? Meaning they learned, they ran the experiment, how far they can push things and have no one do anything about it.

Like they've got that data. It's like, that's something I'm very concerned about. Because now they know how far they can push it if they need to. Yeah. And we've done it once. It's really easy the second time. All right, guys, let's take a break for a second because I got to make sure you got the best wallet on the planet. And oh my God, they just put in a nice little secret compartment that you can keep whatever you want in. I'm not going to say what I would keep in it.

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that he's going to be the nominee. Talk to me. I mean, he's not, he's no spring chicken. Do you think he might not make it? I don't, I don't know that they're both going to make it. I mean, how old is he? 74? I think 76, 78. Yeah, look it up. He's not, he's not a spring chicken. And I'm sorry. 77. 77. And what the stuff that they're putting him through and if Tish James starts taking his house, like, I don't know.

How do you feel about Trump? I know you're not necessarily a fan. Can you expound on why? It's really kind of funny. So if you, what do you call someone who thinks Trump is dumb, doesn't have the temperament of a president, and kind of sucked as when he was in the Oval Office? A Trump supporter.

Because unless you think he's the worst thing to ever happen to America, you're a Trump supporter. Those are the two choices. And if you criticize him in any way, you have TDS. Like, this is the fucking retarded binary. I'm sorry. Trump derangement syndrome. This kind of binary we have where you either have TDS or you're a Trump supporter. It's absolutely buggered. What's TDS? Trump derangement syndrome. Okay. Like, where it's just like, oh my God. You hate everything Trump. I'm going to wear a pussy on my head and show him. Like, okay, yeah. I think he's done a great, great job at recognizing

at radicalizing people. I think he's done a great job at exposing the evil of the corporate press. That was one of his greatest accomplishments. But if people think that Trump's going to save them, like they're crazy. Do you think he's well-intentioned? No. Who thinks he's well-intentioned? I just want to hear that. I mean, I think he loves America, but he's looking out for number one, more power to him. But we saw who he staffed.

Like this idea that Trump at age, what was it, 78? 77. 77 is like learning from his mistakes. The fuck? Like at what point do you stop getting do-overs? Like no one made him hire John Bolton. He hired Omarosa. Yeah. Like, okay, like what the, like explain, like this woman on his own show is,

Her whole shtick was like being a snake. Why did you hire Omarosa? Who is her? It's not like she's strong in the black community. It's like, it's like, it was like little Kim or like Missy. It's like, okay, I get it. Like you making outreach to people that people like fucking Omarosa. You're the only one that liked her. You're the only one that liked her. Yeah. So it's just like these, and the thing is your entire name was spent on 12 years of

Firing and hiring the right people. So how are you fucking hiring and firing John Bolton? What are you talking about? But let's the other side. It could be that at this point, like who wants to work for this guy? Because as soon as I leave, he goes on Twitter and calls me a fucking idiot. Right. So then nobody's willing to step up. Except for the crazies. So you're left with the crazies. But the crazies are the ones who get things done. The

because the crazies don't give a fuck. Can you explain why John Bolton was such a peculiar hire? We used to see Bolton at Fox all the time. There's a picture of me sitting next to him giving the death glare. Okay, so explain Bolton to the average Laker listener. Okay, I'm getting triggered. No, no, here's why. I'll tell you why. Because one of my books is on North Korea. I'm like a North Korea guy.

And before he was hired in the Trump administration, he had an editorial in the Wall Street Journal, I believe, where he's like, if shit hit the fan between North Korea and South Korea, like America has the right to fucking bomb the fuck out of North Korea without even bothering to tell South Korea. And he knows and he says in the article, there's nukes.

pointing from North Korea to Seoul. Seoul is like, what, 20 miles south of border, some short distance. Like, you're willing to play roulette and kill, in a minute, millions of people, and you're putting this in writing in the fucking Wall Street Journal. So he never met a war he didn't like. He just wants to bomb the hell out of everything. Yeah.

I think that's the kind of thing that's got us where we are today. And he was Trump's Secretary of State? No, he was National Security Advisor. He was Secretary of State. And he fired him or he left, whatever. And of course, John Bolton turned on him. But it's just like, what the fuck do you expect? Yeah. So the idea was that he's going to go out there and clean the swamp and he's going to take outsiders, etc. And John Bolton is a pretty...

well-known political insight. How are you going to clean the swamp and your Secretary of State is the guy who run Exxon? Yeah. Like, what the fuck are you talking about? I guess the argument is like, with that is, you're taking guys from the private sector and putting them in positions. But Exxon, this, come on. But Exxon is obviously lobbying government. They're gigantic. They have a bigger...

budget than most government organizations here. I think that's the other thing that Americans are now a little bit more aware of. And maybe put him in Secretary of Commerce. He was Secretary of State, which is diplomacy. What the fuck are you talking about? And did he shrink government at all? No, he didn't even try it. Why do you think they're going to do it again? So if these things don't matter to people, if the data or the facts don't matter to people, one, why is that?

Because people are interested in narratives and others are interested in truth. And what is the narrative on Trump? Preach. Well, there's...

That they're seduced by. Which who? The Trump supporters? I'm sure there's different factions, but sure. I think one of the big narratives is, and they're not wrong, is he's the only candidate out there who cares about us who have been ignored for a long time. Which is valid. That's valid. That's perfectly true. I think that's true. And if he does care about us, they can look past these other shortcomings because that- Or they see what's the alternative. I'd rather have someone who cares about me than someone who doesn't, right?

Yeah, it's a lesser of two situations, like what we were saying before. So yeah, he might hire Bolton and he might put the Exxon guy in there for foreign affairs and that might help out all the oil companies and yada yada. But he's going to actually do something for us. No, I think people underestimate how for decades the only thing conservatism cared about is getting leftists upset.

And they consider that a win. It's like, okay, I'm going to sterilize your kids. You get to call me a moron. Which one of us is winning? Do you know what I mean? So the fact that he got people so upset is like, oh, I'm winning. It's like, what's this happening? But you're not getting any wins. You're just getting people upset. Where's the policy changes? But now we're speaking to what people really want. Sometimes people don't want change. They just want to dunk on you. Yes, that's it. Trump's the dunker. And he's going to come in. He really is. He's on the free throw line. Is that a rapper? No.

Close. He's a basketball player. That's what I said. Is that a euphemism? Basketball player? But no, that's a great... That is a great point. Can I say one thing? I got to say one thing. I'm serious. I was on the flight coming here. I was asleep. I was like taking a ride. I was like asleep. The guy behind me wakes me up screaming,

someone please help me. No. He has his hands around the person next to his neck and I turn around and hand to God, I've been spending so much time watching airplane freakouts that I wasn't even scared. I'm like, oh cool. I'm like, I'm having a story. And I, the first thought was, should I film this? Wait, what? I was already, my first thought was film, should I film this? And I swear to God, my second thought was, should I yell out, world star? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's supposed to film then do it. That's why I thought of that one. He's working on it. He's working on it. And it's a long story short. The guy's wife, mom, excuse me, was having a seat. She couldn't breathe.

And I've never seen someone having a seizure in person. There was no one there. It was like a statue. It was very, very scary. - So the hands around the neck were for- - I think he was trying to shake her. - Ah, got it, got it, got it. - But is someone a doctor for the love of Jesus? He called out for Jesus and Jesus answered. She's fine, I think. - You're welcome. - That's my show, yeah. - Okay. Anyway, back to what people want from Trump. I think that's a really great observation.

It's sometimes they want... They say they want all this change, but in reality, they just want revenge. They feel like they've been dunked on for so long by media, different pundits, late night shows, and all of a sudden this guy comes out and he's shooting. He's taking down everybody and he's the best at it. So it's...

Yeah, you feel this sense of, I guess, it's victory, freedom, revenge. Biden's the guy who comes in for garbage minutes and passes it on. The problem with Trump is if you're going to storm their forts, you got to rape their women and kill their kids. You don't just storm the fort and be like, you're a loser. Okay, bye. Like, what's the point? Maybe that was enough.

It wasn't enough. Look where we are. For what the people wanted. It was enough for them. It was their pound of flesh. We're not talking about like- It wasn't even a pound of flesh. It was a picture. That's all they cared about. But that's all they cared about. And imagine being in a situation where that's all you need. Like that's a pretty dire situation where you're not even like, all right, fuck change. I don't even need change. There's no way that that's actually going to happen. Just tell them they're fat. Yeah.

So that's a pretty... Do you feel the same way about like Storm of the Capitol? That was a symbolic victory that people felt like they did something, but it was completely trivial? I mean, this is another argument against Trump. These were your people and you fucking let them sit in solitary? Fuck you. I mean, what kind of man... What do you think should happen to them?

They should be elected. And put it, I mean, like, it's a good... You have a perfect answer for everything. And it's not a real answer, but it's a perfect answer. You got a little Trump in you. Perfect answer. You're fired. I think that when...

These people who didn't bring weapons were put in solitary confinement for a long time. And he did nothing for them except like later he's like kind of bringing their mantle. I think it's just absolutely fucking outrageous that they weren't charged for months at a time. The book thrown at them is just absolutely crazy. And I think it's a good thing when politicians are afraid. I think that's a very healthy thing for America, for any country. Yeah.

So you think our politicians have gotten a little too comfortable? Gotten? I mean, they've been that way for decades. Yeah. They're on planes. They're fucking teenagers on islands. One of the best things Trump did, and this is one of the great moments, maybe you guys could play the clip, was a bunch of congressmen were going to Afghanistan, I think, to a military base...

And Trump, as head of the executive branch, pulled their permission slip. He goes, you can't use a federal plane. And they had to circle the bus around and they drove him back. And they also had to get off the fucking bus. And they didn't know what to do. And why did he do that? What was the purpose? Just to fuck with them. Because Nancy Pelosi was like, you can't stay in the union while this shit's going on. He goes, well, then you can't get on a plane.

And they just, the bus ran around for like half an hour. Like, what do we do? And they all have to fucking get off the bus looking like assholes. So here's a perfect example. It was hilarious, but who cares? But this is, you like it. You like to see them getting dunked on. But I'm not a Trump voter. I'm not saying you are, but it satisfied that little itch that you had, which is okay, check these fucking- It didn't satisfy that itch. That itch should be satisfied and I can't finish this thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I hear what you're saying. Okay, okay, okay. And then now what do you think that, what do you think people on the left are feeling now or want now?

I don't think the left is like a monolith. I really don't like that characterization because I think there's a lot of, like, for example, I have a lot of friends who are lefties, like 2016, they hated Hillary. Okay. Let me, let me change the question. The people that maybe voted for Biden.

biden yeah last election the corpses yeah like the corpses or the people are like i can't vote for this fucking trump yeah sure but they're not these purple haired lesbians absolutely there's lots of them okay what are they thinking now what do they what do they need now do they feel satisfied do you think that they've they're embarrassed i think it's i think it's a mix i think a lot of people aren't going to vote for someone who's got a mugshot

I think a lot of people don't pay attention to politics. They see a mugshot, they're like, all right, I can't do this. So maybe they won't vote for Biden. Maybe they'll sit at home. That's a big issue. So they sit it out. Yeah, a lot of people, it's the supermarket. And that's the power of the mugshot. You fucking bring him in, get his picture taken.

And that's enough for some people. Yeah, and I don't blame him. Like if I'm not paying attention to politics, I know a guy's got all these charges. I'm like, fuck it. I can't bring myself to vote for him. Maybe this other guy sucks, but I can't do it. So I can understand that. Supermarket's a big thing. The prices. Yeah, it's just like, all right. Like this is a problem. It was easier before. So that's a big, those people are going to vote for Trump. I don't think we're going to know what the, what I think, here's the thing. And this is not a particularly bold thing for me to say. I think shit's going to get crazy in a way we haven't seen before.

Because if he's where he is in the polls now, Trump, where he's leading, which he never led at all in any poll in 2020, it was like one poll. He's leading in a lot of the polls. Things are going to get nuts. And one of the predictions I had is if they pull Biden, their plan B is going to be Hillary. Oh, my God. And she would probably win.

Really? Hold on, hold on. She got millions more votes the last time. Now that doesn't count in terms of Electoral College. But if I'm starting out with a faster time than you, you know what I mean? And I just got to switch a few thousand a few states. That's a really strong opening position. She doesn't have to defend Biden. She gets Newsom as VP. So he gets the suburban white woman vote.

She would go on that debate stage and go, eight years ago, you said I'd be in jail. You're the one with the mugshot. Right? And even you laughed, see? It's funny. I just find her so wholly unlikable. And I didn't, I don't know one thing or another about Trump. I just thought 2016 to 2020, there was so much fucking debate and everything was such a thing.

I kind of enjoy the relative piece, even though I don't think Biden's a good president. Hillary, though, I just find so... Biden, corpse or not, relatively sweet old guy, he seems. So as an uninformed guy who doesn't even really vote, to be honest with you, I would be... If I had to vote, I'd be like, all right, I guess just give me the fucking quiet corpse as opposed to the guy who's going to rile everyone up. But Hillary, I don't... I'm not voting. Can they even swap somebody in at this time? Well, if he dies...

or he's incapacitated. But they could just sit him down. Look, what happened in 2020... Mentally unfit. No, but I mean, to have your name on the ballot, I think you had to announce that. Yeah, I'll explain what happened. In 2020... In other words, just shut up. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that. I'm just implying it. So...

In 2020, there was something called Super Tuesday, which is a bunch of primaries in the same day. And Klobuchar and Buttigieg got the phone call because Bernie Sanders is leading in every state. They go, it's Biden. They just quit. They're like, oh yeah, we trust Biden. And Biden swept it the next day. So I'm sure someone could give Biden the call being like, dude, you're losing to Trump. It's a wrap. Because he's a function of the party. He's a party hacker since the 70s. All right, guys, we're going to take a break for a second, okay? Because I want to tell you about I Wanna Gummies.

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Apply, must be 21 and over to order alcohol, drink responsibly. Delivery and promotions available only in select markets. Now let's get back to the show. Are there any people or who's the closest to someone who has ended up with power? And maybe they seek that power, but they are benevolent. Oh, Gorbachev.

- Wow. - So this was a big theme of my book, "The White Pill" when I learned about it, because all these different countries in the Soviet block were calling him, they go, "Dude, shit's hitting the fan, send in the tanks or it's all going to hell." And he said, "Nope." - And why? - Because he's like, "I'm not having the blood of all these people in my hands." East Germany with the Berlin Wall where East Berlin was surrounded by concrete barricade and people were imprisoned, they were having protests.

And they were saying, we need another Tiananmen Square here, like your favorite place. And Gorbachev called the Russians in East Berlin. He says, we're not using force under any circumstances. Shit's going to play out on its own. And he went to East Germany and said in front of Honecker, who was the dictator, he goes, you're not a man of...

Some people get lost in the past and some people move forward. So he was an example. And I'm not saying everything is, people have mousetraps in their head. When you say someone is an example, like, oh, he's probably saying he's Jesus. I'm not saying he's Jesus. I'm not saying he was a king of any kind. My point being, to me, it's true though. When people have power and don't take their hands off the gun, that to me is, there's a great story that I learned writing this book.

So Reagan was taken down to the bunker and walked through a nuclear attack. And he goes, you're telling me that Russia's throwing nukes at us and I press these buttons. I'm killing like millions of people in minutes. They're like, yeah, he's like, uh-huh. And he leaves and he's like, I'm fucking putting a stop to this shit. Gorbachev was taken down to the bunker as well. And he goes, I'm not pressing this button even in a simulation. If we're getting nuked, we're getting nuked. I'm not fucking retaliating. Neither of them knew this.

So in the 80s, they're playing poker with all these fucking nukes. But both of them had committed internally, like, I'm not fucking fighting back. I'm not going to be worse. Where is this from? I mean, it came out. Like, one was Reagan's aide. The other, Gorbachev said it, not publicly, but he said it explicitly. I mean, what a cool piece of history. Isn't that amazing? How do you de-mousetrap people? I want mousetraps. Oh, you mean like, oh, you can't.

And how do we get mousetraps in there in the first place? And just so everybody knows what we're talking about, the mousetraps are the trigger words that immediately shift someone's thinking and make them- Stop their critical thinking. Yeah, immune to logic or, so the second you say- Trump. Trump. They've got a bunch of speeches. You say ivermectin. You know what the speeches are? We already know. So how do you de-mousetrap people?

Or why are people so prone to mousetraps? This is one of the reasons I'm not a Christian. Don't you fucking start with me. I don't think human beings are all fundamentally the same. I think some people, there's no one there.

Interesting. And I don't think you can make it that there's someone there. Do you think it's... You think, sorry, with the mousetrap people, there's no one there? For many of them, yes. Okay. Is it no one there? I think this is their analog for thought. But if you take out the mousetraps, it's not like you can build a house in there. I would think it's a coping mechanism for the fact that there's so much to think about, so much to care about, quote unquote. They're not thinking too much. So we're just looking for the exit ramp, to borrow terminology. No, we...

Yeah. So humans in general, a lot of times I see again, I'm not generalizing. I'm sorry. No, that's fair. But there, I think there's a large swath of humanity that is like, there's a lot to digest a lot to think about. If you can give me anything that gives me an exit ramp to not having to care about this issue. Cause I, my brain goes, well, that's what they are. Then I'm going to take it because we are wired to not exert too much energy thinking. So, so there's, so there's two things with that. One option is,

One reaction to that could be, I don't know, man. I just don't know. There's a lot I don't know, yeah. Right? The other reaction is, I need to say the thing that does not ostracize me from my in-group. Here is the thing. Now, that reaction...

There's a neediness in that reaction. There's an insecurity in that reaction. It's a rational one. Pardon? It's rational. It's rational in that the importance of the in-group for your survival is crucial, right? This is baked into us primarily on that. Yes, very much so. Yes, of course. But it is different than, man, I don't know. I just don't know enough. Do you hate Trump? I don't really know enough about it. Do you're a Trump supporter?

You should think I'm a Trump supporter, right? If you say I don't know, you're a Trump supporter. Right. According to those people. Okay. So then I guess what we have to figure out is what is the difference between the I don't know enough people and the people who are hyper concerned about being part of the in-group. And you think it's just an emptiness? Do you think it's an IQ thing? I don't think they have souls. Come on.

I'm serious. This is a whole psychedelics issue. What do you mean? Talk to me. Take me there. I don't think they vibrate in 4D. No way. Really? Yes. Are you being genuine? Hands to God. And what... I'm going with you on this. I'm going with... Why is that? Okay. So, I can kind of... Do you have a piece of paper? Yeah. We'll get you a piece of paper. Miles, can you just ask him for one? Do you want a pen? I got a pen. I'm an author. Okay.

honestly who's this fucking guy I know he has a will of course I have I had things on me I didn't know what to write hasn't written a book with a pen in 20 years of course I have I got fancy pens and I have nothing to do with them so I gotta carry them around okay okay go go I just want to draw something quick I'll draw the cup no no no we're gonna get you a piece of paper we're gonna be here in like two seconds I promise you but this diagram I'll show you I'll show you what I got oh what about we'll get it we'll get it did you text him yeah

Okay, is it crazy to draw on like that right there? Because you're going to leave these for us anyway. Oh, you want me to? Yeah, I would love to. And I wanted to sign it. You just stole his book, dude. Okay, let's do this. I mean, if you have to take them to your next thing, then... No, there's no next thing. Okay. Um...

Here comes the paper. I got it. I got it. No, no, we got it. This is even better. This book is worth trillions. You'll hear it once I say it, then you'll be like, okay. Okay. So can we, where's the camera? We got it on his phone. We were just looking at it. I think we're okay. We got it. Thank you, Tonya. So what's this a picture of? That is a- That's Michael Malice. Michael Malice. That's right. So point to him here and now point to him in real life.

Right. And what's this? That's Andrew Schultz. Right. So, and what's this? That's a house. Point to the house. Where else is the house in real life? Right. So these are 2D representations of 3D beings, but this house only exists in 2D. Okay. So I think a lot of people who exist in 3D don't exist in 4D where the souls are.

So we're talking about one more dimension. Yes. He's using this as an example. It's like an allegory of the cave type situation. Not really. Some people are just shadows. Yes, yes. But they're not actually the form that creates a shadow. Brilliant, yes. You thought he wasn't gone then? I thought he meant the people in the cave. No, no, no. This is good. Yes. That's what I think. I understand. So the frequency that... Yeah. So do you think those people are worthy of human consideration? Yes.

Yes. I mean, I'm not in favor. No one believes that buildings don't have souls, right? So I'm not saying, if someone says a building doesn't have souls, oh, you're saying we should break down every building? That makes no sense, right? No one believes buildings don't have souls. No one believes buildings have souls. Oh, okay. Or trees. Oh, you think trees don't have souls? Are you saying burn down all the forests? You know, that's completely not sequitur. Right, right. But you're not going to negotiate with a building.

You're not going to have an argument with them. You're not going to debate them. And you're not going to care about that building. And the differentiator. We wouldn't let buildings vote.

I don't believe in voting. Fair. I believe voting for anybody. To clarify, sorry, the differentiator between the soul having people and not is critical thinking essentially and not having those- I think this, I don't know what it looks like in there, but I think the more you go down these kind of rabbit holes and people without inner monologues, people who are incapable of any kind of steel manning, incapable of literally any empathy. I'm really glad that you steel manned.

It's annoying when people come on with arguments and they're not willing to justify the opposition. There's also nothing wrong with saying, I don't know. Because I'd rather someone think I'm honest than think I'm smart. Because I'd rather talk to someone who's honest than someone who's smart. Because then, like, okay, I don't agree with you, but you can be my friend. I can rely on you. I can come from a place of truth. Who the hell are these smart people? When you're around yourself. As obviously you've demonstrated. So...

I don't know why I'm like this. I don't know why I'm like this. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I love it. I love it. Never going to compliment you again. I'm excited about this. Okay, okay, okay. So then the question is, if you can be benevolent, right? Let's say you're in this position of power. I'm not saying that you would want this position of power, but if you could be as benevolent as possible to these people who are soulless, according to you,

how would you help them understand what is, and can you even know what's best for them? Maybe what's best for them is to just wrap themselves around an ideology. And like Akash said, it's like way less intellectual heavy lifting. They get to be part of the group and maybe that is the best life for them. Not only the best, it's also unavoidable. I think to your point, yeah.

We're taught in elementary school that it's really important for everyone to be an involved citizen and be informed on current events. What? That's ridiculous. But then...

So that's part of it. Now you've created a problem in the minds of literally everybody. And then the corporate press comes in and they're like, here's an issue and here's how you should feel about it. So right away, they give them a solution to the problem they've created. And I'll give you a very easy example. Everyone listening to this can watch it on their own. So when you have a play...

the beginning of the play of a cast of characters like mercutio you know romeo's friend who's got whatever lethargy blah blah and you describe who they are so if you're reading the play you can go back to the beginning who's this guy again

When the corporate press introduces a character into a story, they'll right away tell you whether you should like this person or not. So if we were describing Joe Rogan, we'd say an objective description, like Joe Rogan, popular podcast host, or Joe Rogan, king of the bros, something like that, right? They'll say Joe Rogan, comma,

who has a history of trans jokes comma that's the most important thing to define Joe fucking Rogan so any article when they bring a character onto the stage they immediately tell the reader how

they should feel about either the person or the event. So they create the problem in school where like, I have to care about everything. No one has the capacity to learn about everything or to know about everything. So when they write the article, like here's the facts, but here's the right away how you should feel about it. And,

And right away, everyone reading this be like, I can pass because not only am I informed in terms of I know the facts, I also have an opinion about it now. You're probably familiar with Jonathan Haidt. Oh, I think he's the most profound thinker nowadays. Once you read him, you can't go back. It's really interesting, this theory of logic and reason. He has a new book out. Are you going to have him on? I think so.

he'd be a really good guest. You'd love him. Yeah, I spoke to him at the cellar. He was doing Gnome, the guy who owns the cellar. Yeah, yeah, of course. He was doing his pod. Gnome is a great pod. You guys have great conversations. We went head-to-head. It was really fun. Was it good? I don't know. Not really. Okay, damn. Well, he's a sharp guy. I like him a lot. Yeah, he's in it. But he's like a boomer con. Maybe, but he's well-read. No, I like him. I like him. We're just saying we're kind of talking past each other. Anyway. No disrespect to Gnome at all. So Jonathan...

Jonathan was talking about that original book. The Righteous Mind. Yes, The Righteous Mind. Everyone reading this should watch that book. Fantastic, fantastic book. Even for my books. And you could probably articulate this better than I can, but it was this idea of logic and reason and what is being used and what is it? It's an elephant with a rider. And an interesting component I think that he's added to in the most recent book is the first emotional reaction that you have for something ends up becoming...

I think the elephant. So the idea is you basically use reason to come to your conclusion and logic to justify it afterwards. So whatever you feel about something initially is what you're going to try to retroactively justify. Just rationalize. I'll give you two examples, one that just happened to me. Okay, go. So he ran these tests and he'd be like, okay, here's a scenario. By the way, another good way to know if someone's worth talking to is if you give them a hypothetical, they're like, this would never happen.

It's like, okay, great. So you don't like fun. Einstein figured out one of his experiments. He's like, what would happen if you're running at the speed of light and you turn on a flashlight? And you know some people be like, you can't run the speed of light. It's like, okay, great, great, great. Einstein's an idiot here. Wait a minute, hold on. What would happen? Nothing would happen. Well, that's what he started to figure. I was like, okay, what if you're running at the speed of light in a truck? And how can you figure out the speed? You turn on that flashlight at the speed of light. It's just...

A light hovering at the tip of the flashlight because you're moving at the same speed as the projection of the light. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This guy's pretty smart, this Einstein guy. Einstein guy, right? So Haidt had these moral questions. What if brother and his sister had sex once? They used a condom. They had a fun time. They never did it again. Is that wrong? And a lot of people would say yes. And he goes, why? Why?

And then people like, oh, and they start spazzing out. And sometimes they'd be like, what if they had like fucked up kids? But we know they didn't have fucked up kids. We set up the scenario. We know everything that happened because this didn't really happen. But they'll still try to find rationalizations to make it work. And this just happened to me. I have six. Yeah.

And she said we shouldn't have kids. And I'm like, you're right. Wait until she went through menopause. So I have six light bulbs in my bedroom. One of the light bulbs is out. And part of me is like, I need to replace this bulb. I can't think of a good reason.

Who cares? There's only five light bulbs. It's not like it's fucking dark. There's no loss of utility. But my brain is telling me you should replace that bulb. I like the look of all the light bulbs. Aesthetically, one being off. Do I really care? Symmetry? I guess symmetry, but I mean... Yeah, I think you clearly care about aesthetics. Yeah, but the lights aren't off and on in the bedroom anyway.

My point is my feeling is stronger than the rationalization for the feeling. A lot of times people have a very strong moral opinion, but their moral reasoning is very, very weak. Because a lot of times you don't need strong... You don't need... Wait, what was it? The back end of that? Rationalization. You don't need strong rationalization if you're in a group that all agrees with you. You don't need steel, man. You're done. Isn't the illusion of power a little bit better than not having...

your voice felt at all. Take us, take us down. Because now it's like, every time I disagree with a, or every time I disagree with something, it's going to be a January 6th or it's going to be. So you want, what's the guy in the matrix who was red pilled and took the blue pill so he could go back? That's you. Yes, it is. The bald guy. He's a great actor. Joey Pants, Joe Pantelon. Yeah, Joey Pantelon. That's you. Yes, you're saying I want to go back and eat the steaks. You would go back. I would go back. You would go back. If I'm Neo, I'm.

But you're not Neo. You're Joey Pants. Maybe you can do more pants. Maybe. Yeah, I can do more pants. But yeah, you're right. It's like everybody wants to be Neo in the Matrix. Everybody else in the Matrix sucks. Driving that stupid spaceship around the fucking sewage system. They don't suck because they're

in their jobs. They have families. They have happy lives in the Matrix. Their lives are great. No, everybody outside the Matrix is what he meant to say. Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I'm saying in every... Oh, no, no, sorry. Outside... Everybody in the movie that has already taken the pill, they're driving around these stupid spaceships. They're away from their families that are in this underground dungeon. They're just fucking miserable. Eating sludge. Eating sludge. The one guy goes back. Neo, at least, gets to be fucking Superman every once in a while when he walks into it. But every other red pillar is miserable.

Yeah, but H.L. Mencken, the great newspaper man for the 20th century, he has this great quote. He goes, the average man does not want to be free. He simply wants to be safe.

And this is why we trade our freedom for security all the time. Don't say we. Okay. The average person. Yes. All the time. And I don't think it's just those people that you were talking about. It's not at all. We saw it during COVID. It's a human- It was a huge percentage. And frankly, I don't blame a lot of them. Here's the thing. Like I was saying earlier with my fans, if you're someone with a family and kids, like it's really, I'm not going to sit here and tell you to stick your neck out and put their fucking livelihood in danger. That's crazy. Yeah. The-

Martyrdom is overrated. That's another reason I'm not a Christian. I don't think martyrdom is always a good answer. I think it's often a bad answer. I can tell you even just getting married, my risk aversion has gone down. Of course. The idea of safety has become, as a father, I'm thinking about both for one day. Safety becomes paramount. Yes, and that's appropriate. This is my freedom at this point, honestly. So let's protect that.

Yeah. And this is what these countries did very well. They know if they get your kids, you're going to do whatever they want. Yeah. So which countries did that? Eastern Europe. Interesting.

like they when the what became the kgb they would arrest people and there would be your kid's death warrant signed on your desk wow and it's like let's name names and this is because stalin legalized the death penalty to like 12 or 14 so right away it's like if it's not you it's gonna be your kids what's it gonna be right you're gonna talk oh yeah i did 9-11 you're singing whatever you want me to sign yeah

So the great human experiment of the West or of America. One more thing. They did this with Canada.

So the corporate press, who are literal demons, when those truckers were, I'm not kidding. No, the truckers were having their protests. There were all these articles saying the police should come and take their kids away because these protests aren't safe places for kids. Isn't that interesting? There was no violence. There was no threats of violence. There were a lot of honking and they were advocating and the cops were saying it. We might have to come take their kids. Yeah.

You're telling me these people aren't demons? The idea that they were all white supremacists, like as a guy who knows a lot of Punjabis, I guarantee you a lot of them are truckers. Listen, you're 100% right. Hold on, no, seriously. If your choice is being called a white supremacist or having your kids taken away, I mean, this is- It's not even a question. I guess what you're trying to say is- Which is more evil. The way that they were making them radioactive is that they were calling them Nazis or white supremacists. And what people don't realize is the truckers in Canada-

A large percentage of them are Indian. Punjabis in particular often go into Jogging and there's tons of them. But it's got to be the racism or climate change. Of course. See if it's not climate change, it's racism. Yeah. Should the state have any role in child rearing at all?

God, no. Are you kidding? Really? No. Child rearing? Or I guess child protection. That's the big issue. If there's a faith healer, like a fundamentalist religious family and their kid has cancer and they're saying, we're going to pray this away. We're not going to take them to a doctor. Let's talk about this because this is a problem. This is a nice tree. We've got a lot of branches. This is something I take very seriously. I talk about it a lot. And I really hate when people politicize

like stuff with kids because they're like oh all these people are democrats who are molesting kids give me a break the the big problem biologically is that a lot of people who have kids

shouldn't have kids. I don't mean the sense that they're bad parents. I mean that they're doing horrific things to kids that none of us in this room can imagine. And a friend of mine named Matt, and he told me to use his name when I was on Rogan, came out to me as a child, a victim of childhood sexual abuse. I talked about it and I said, people shouldn't have to keep themselves quiet, right? If someone had a dad who was like an alcoholic 50 years ago, he couldn't talk about it. Now, if that happened to you, Andrew, it would suck. I wouldn't look at you any differently. People who were the victims

of this, they feel like they're embarrassed to say something. They shouldn't have to carry that burden their whole lives. They should be comfortable to say it and be like, dude, that sucks for you. I'm still gonna make rape jokes around you. You know what I mean? And when I talked about it in Rogan, a bunch more of my friends told me and a bunch of strangers reached out to me and I'm like, holy shit, this is a big fucking huge problem. And the thing is, I don't have any answer. And if anyone tells you the answer is voting Republican or having this kind of system or that kind of system, the problem is it's in the family.

And there's no system where people who have families have access to those kids. And also these predators know how to pass. They know where the prey is. Any animal. So this is something I think about a lot. I talk about a lot. And I really hate these kind of glib, you just got to do this. There's not one easy answer for this. And I really hate these claims that this is all tinfoil hat paranoia and you guys are making it.

If you're going to overreact about something, to me, this is the thing. This is another reason why I never identify as libertarian, because libertarians think it's just the government, or many of them do. This has nothing to do with the government. This operates independently of the government, and the system works very effectively and efficiently, and you just nailed it completely. The example I was talking about earlier with Roseanne is when I did my book on the new rights,

I'd never met Holocaust deniers before, right? And what was fascinating to me as a Jewish person is that all these people who were saying the Holocaust never happened were all saying it should have.

And I told that to Roseanne. She's like, oh my God, so funny. So she's on Theo Vaughn, comedy podcast, Theo Vaughn, who runs a popular comedy podcast, that's how an article should be. And she's talking about things like, yeah, you can't say, you know, the vaccine, whatever. And you can't say Biden got 81 million votes and the Holocaust never happened. So she's using examples of things that are like absurdities that you're not allowed to say. They clip it. Yeah.

Jewish Roseanne who identifies as a rabbi and never said I was a good one. That's her line. And Roseanne Barr, Holocaust denier. And it's just like you people and the thing is it's not possible to

to look at that whole clip and not realizing she's being sarcastic. It's not possible. Another lefty example, Cenk Uygur, who runs The Young Turks. Who? Cenk Uygur. Oh, yeah, yeah. I didn't know that's how you pronounce his last name. He runs The Young Turks. He had David Duke on his show, former Klansman David Duke. And David Duke is saying, I don't hate Jews. And Cenk Uygur goes, no, of course not. New York Times, Cenk Uygur had David Duke on his show. When David Duke said, I don't defend Jews, Cenk agreed and said, no, of course not.

You can't watch that clip. This leftist is agreeing with David. It's not, you cannot honestly think this, but when you read it, the transcript, it sure looks that way. This is my point about how it is often manipulated. And some people are lazy, but a lot of times they know what the fuck they're doing. And sometimes both of them are the exact same thing. Correct. The parameters create the laziness.

Because if you have parameters, I don't have to do anything. The people that will work there and work within these parameters are inspired really just by the carrot. And once I have those perfect people that are inspired just by the carrot, they don't give a flying fuck how the art comes out. Of course. And now you've got control. Now, here's the problem. Who the fuck is creating the parameters? Yes. Are multiple people creating them? Are multiple interest groups creating them? Like, how... We'll tie this in a second. Like, for...

The parameters of Me Too, for example, have been so bastardized. Can we talk about Me Too? Yeah, well, because the Huberman article, the hit piece came out. And here's the thing. I feel right now that we're at the point that people immediately rejected it. They're just like, another one of these hit pieces. This is clearly just a hit job.

I've not met one person and it might talk about the people that I hang out with, but not one person that actually was like, oh, this is a serious piece and we should look into this.

When I say these people are, these corporate journalists are literal demons, by which I mean entities which are only biologically human. Andrew Humerman's entire shtick is helping people with free information, which means it helps poor people more than people have money, how to succeed, how to be better human beings, how to sleep, how to be better neighbors, just thrive. It's all positive, no politics, and this is your villain.

So the hatred I have. And what are they accusing him of? Just dating four girls? Yeah, he slept around.

The hatred I have for these... The incredibly handsome rich guy got some pussy? Is that the shocking information? I get why you're laughing, but my thoughts are with this guy whose entire career has been about giving people free information to become better human beings. And now in this major piece, he has to know that everyone around him is reading about him hoeing around and looking at him differently. And it's just like, it makes me so angry.

I don't like that argument only because somebody can live their life in the most positive way but still do nefarious shit. But I don't think this is nefarious and it's not my business. I don't even know the story. What you're saying is just because you do good doesn't mean you can't do bad. I agree with that. But he's not doing bad. But here's the thing. One thing, I don't think he's doing bad. And two, I think that people are eye-rolling these pieces because they've become so frequent. It's almost like... Karenism. It's Karenism. No, Karen isn't.

Oh, Karen isn't. Because there's plenty of uninformed people, like we talked about earlier. It's also Karenism. Where if you say Andrew Huberman, oh, he's the guy who raped a bunch of women. Even though it doesn't say that in the article, that's what they're hearing. I think those pieces, I think those days are done. I think there was a time where- You're crazy. I think what often happens though, and this is not to just, not to say that these people aren't soulless demons or whatever words you're using, but what often happens now, I think, is what I think you're going to find with Huberman is he's going to get more popular.

because the people who are eye rolling at these articles who do exist are going to go oh they don't like them so I like them I don't redistribute them in the slightest my point is there's going to be plenty of people now in their head when they hear Andrew Huberman they're going to all they know about him is like outlawed here's the thing I think there was a time that we yeah but I had a friend from college he's like oh I hate that guy he could think of a reason but here's but but

But I think that was a different time. I think there was a time that we grew up in where we didn't know that there was a thing called a hit piece. We just thought it was information. Now we know there are things called hit pieces. Who's we? I'm telling you, there's a lot of people that still don't realize. We're debating the numbers here, right? You guys think that that number's higher. I think that number's lower. I'm not saying that there are no people. I think it's a majority are...

I think 10%. What? Temperature now taking the face value? Yeah. It's like 60. I think it's closer to 60 than 10. I think the number is growing. I think when we were younger, it was a lot. Maybe it's less now. But when you see what happened with Rogan, when you see what CNN, I'm not talking about some fucking online magazine. I'm talking CNN changes the color of his skin in a picture. When you see that CNN can do that,

And then you see this, when you see what's happened with Portnoy, when you see this happen over and over again, you're like, oh, this is a trick. Andrew, people think Kyle Rittenhouse killed black people. People think Kyle Rittenhouse shot black people. I thought that at first. Yeah, I know. I thought that until then. Then I thought I knew the hero. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fucking hero. Fucking Antifa kids in Portland or whatever it was. G's up.

Jesus. Malice. So... He's saying what we're all thinking. That's good.

I feel like the whole- I'm gonna text him again. He's back. I think the whole right has a distrust of the media though. So I think that they can look at this with skepticism. There's no one on the right that doesn't believe it. A lot of the boomers believe in Fox. They think Fox is like the, you know what I mean? Sure. But Fox isn't putting out the article. My point is a lot of the Fox- The New Yorker is.

Correct. But my point is that a lot of the right do have trust of some aspects of the media. Fair. But the left-leaning media, I don't think that they trust. So I don't think anybody on the right is reading this article and believing it. So that's 50%. No, it's not 50% because there's a huge percentage of the population that doesn't care. Hmm.

And they're like, you know, kind of floating along. And they're the ones who are now in their head, oh, Andrew Huberman, oh, he's a bad guy. And then I think he's saying the majority of people don't dive deeper than the sources they trust at large. Also, CNN, Fox News. And also, the New Yorker punches modestly culturally. Do you see how long the fucking article is also? No, I don't want, I'm just angry. So the article is so long that you'd never read it. So, and I think it's by design.

I think that they're just like, here's the headline. Look at all these other cursors still this small as it goes down. So I couldn't believe how much I had scrolled so much and this on the side, all that to say you got some puss. My, my, my hope. And I don't think it's much of a hope. And I'm sure I'll be in a room with him at some point is that this, like with Elon really radicalizes Andrew Huberman. And he realizes the depravity of the enemy class.

because with Elon it was like oh Elon's from South Africa you know they had apartheid there and it's like what the fuck are you talking about just complete shamelessness yeah

Yeah, what do you think about Elon's very open political opinions on X? I love it. Okay. I'm pretty sure he's read The White Pill, which is really cool. I wish he'd tweet about it. He followed me, which is really, really exciting. I'm waiting to slide into his DMs. I'm waiting for that fucking opportunity. I almost did the Jew hands. I almost did. I caught myself. Yeah.

When I'm at home and from the mirror thinking about it, I do it. It's not like I cast a reflection, but I do it. Malice, we have books that you need, that people need to read, many of which that you have written.

These ones are too... Try that sentence again. Well, there are books that people need to read. Many of them you've written, but there's also books you haven't read that they should read. He said Jonathan Haidt, you should read first. Yeah. I thought that was all. Okay, I take it back. Which one should we read first? Who's we? Us, here at this table. Whichever interests you more. If you want a collection of essays, it's an Anarchist Handbook, but I think The White Pill. I think The White Pill is the one. It's my greatest achievement. That's the one everyone should read.

It is about the rise and fall of the Russian Empire? And it's also about the victory of good over evil. Wow. And that's something that I think all of us can be motivated by and take. And the fact that this happened in our lifetimes, you know what I mean? You're saying the fall of the Soviet Union and the rise of Russia. No, the rise and fall of the Soviet Union. Oh, gotcha. The triumph of good over evil. Yes. And it's a very dark but very beautiful story. Mm-hmm.

Okay, I'm going to indulge in this. And then you have another thing you're working on. Can you talk about it at all a little bit? I do. I thought you were talking about the case for a civil war. Oh. Can we not talk about this? It's not called the case for civil war. You were like, put black people back in the, what, you said something? They were happier. They were singing their songs. They got jobs. Sometimes they're in the house. Okay.

Did you know much Disney Song of the South? They're singing with the animals. Birds talking to them. Except for that rabbit. Fucking rabbits, dude. Here's what's going to happen. When the book's done, I will text you and you'll say, what's it about? And I'll tell you. You go, wow. And then a year later, you'll have me on the show. That'd be perfect. And that other person will tell you about it in a second. But I have heard you talk about this a little bit. So you can. I think you might need to clarify it.

a little bit. Share this theory. America's in need for a national divorce. National divorce? How do you want to say it? I'm going to be, I'm actually doing crowdfunding for a graphic novel I'm doing that's kind of a pet project. But yeah, I'm going to be trying to get together my book about national divorce, which I started that whole bandwagon when I wrote 2016. And you believe that that should happen? It's going to happen. Based on

I don't think there's any mechanism in place other than extreme violence, which I'm desperately hoping to avoid, to bring America closer together as a country as opposed to further separating apart. And I think that's kind of indisputable. I don't think anyone— And do you think Americans are so young and unaware of history that we believe that that's not just something that happens to a country every few hundred years?

If you look at the size of the nations in Europe, they've changed drastically over time. I just think the difference is, especially because of social media, it's harder and harder to find a reason to talk to people whose worldview you disagree with. And when that's the case, what is the argument for having kind of this at least two, if not more, cultures under one roof? Yeah.

Especially cultures who genuinely despise each other. Yeah. I guess the reason would be safety, but I think that Americans are just so far removed from the idea of a water border and why that's valuable. Yeah, I'm also much more worried about being invaded by Washington than Beijing. Yeah.

- And also the invasion wouldn't be with personality. Invasion would be with culture. So the idea of having protection from invasion because you have water on both sides doesn't really give you the same advantages as it did back in the day. - Yeah, this boomer argument that if America split up then China's gonna invade tomorrow, it's just like they can-- - What do they want?

How? And Canada and the rest of the world is going to be like, well, they're divorced now, so I guess we're just going to let this happen. I'm going to talk about that in the book. It makes no sense to me. Okay, I want to hear more about it. You're a fascinating dude. Thank you so much for... I really appreciate you coming, but I also appreciate you, and I say this again, the steel man arguments I think are really valuable, and I think that they pacify...

anybody who's consuming this bit of information that they might completely disregard and disagree with, all of a sudden you hear the perspective that they feel and you're like, okay, so that does make sense. And he sees my point of view, but this other thing is pretty interesting as well. I think it's really effective. Thank you so much. And I'm glad that you shared that, man. Great pleasure. Thank you. You are welcome. Yeah. Fuck your shoes, bro. Thank you, bro. That's the closing. Your shoes are sick.