JJ Redick on Lebron James Podcast, Rapping in College, & Untold Kobe Bryant Stories
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How did the pod with LeBron come to fruition? I've known Bron now like 24, 25 years. We saw each other in December with the folks on his side, had a conversation and that got the ball rolling. So he picked you or you picked him? There's no good answer to that. Seems like there's a great answer.

Is there any heckle that you laughed at? During warm-ups, I had noticed there was a group of students sitting front row, and they had T-shirts with my picture on it. On the picture, it said, when I grow up, I want to name my kid JJ Redick. So I went over before the game to get a closer look, and then they turned around, and it said, and beat him every day. Ha ha ha!

Did you know that I've recorded rap songs in college is this a bar for me I was the inspiration for Martin Luther King. Mmm. I'm the reason Ray Charles can sing Was that you I wrote that White chocolate was on the spot. Yeah, which I was on the pot. He fucking killed it. But uh, but I chocolate chocolate Yeah, I played chocolate J. Well, this is one-on-one the Duke J. Well, yeah, Duke J. Will yeah one-on-one anyone come on, bro. Oh

You won? Yeah, of course. Oh, you don't know the story?

I don't know the story. I've never lost to an NBA player at basketball. I'm just telling you. I've never lost. Spotted him six in a game. Listen, we had to play until seven. But listen, he gave me six. I didn't ask for six. He gave me six. His hubris got the best of him. And then, you know, I had to beat him. I had to hit him with a little crossover, teardrop, no big deal. How many would you take from me? How many do I need to spot you? In one-on-one? Yeah.

No, I'll beat you straight up one-on-one. I'll beat you straight up one-on-one. No, no, I'll beat you straight up one-on-one. Because think of it, like, J. Will is, you know what I mean? He's the best player to come out of Duke ever, man. No, no, okay, what would I do? How would I handicap you? Okay, no, you can't shoot threes.

Oh, you're getting destroyed. What? How? Bro. Going to the basket? I remember my going into my junior year, my senior year of college. Okay. I had my girlfriend was she lived in Minneapolis. And so we were going to go to Big Sky for July 4th weekend. So I went to Minneapolis first.

And so I grabbed her little brother. He was in like sixth grade at the time. I was like, I need to rebound her. So we went to her local LA Fitness, whatever it was. I don't remember. Get my shots up. And there's this guy fucking lurking over on the sideline. And I get done with my workout and he comes up to me and he's like, man,

I know you could shoot, but like, I played D2. I bet I can beat you one-on-one. I need to see you take me off the dribble. Yeah, yeah. And I beat him 11-0. Easy. With no threes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like that Wayne Gretzky clip we just watched. You have no idea how athletic I am. No, no, no. This is the thing that I like. You're comparing me to LeBron and Ja Morant? This is the really funny thing. Is it like, you're an elite, elite athlete, but because you have to play against LeBron. Yeah.

Sometimes guys look at you and they're like, I think I can get a few points on JJ. Right, right. But that's not even close to the case. No, that's racism. That's what we call racism. Dude, you're a victim of racism, dude. No, this is racism. All the time. You think you can beat him because he's white? No, no, because I had a roommate. Dude, you're such a victim. You think you can beat him because he's a white guy. You're lack of privilege, dude. Come on. For real. What's the scowl thing? The scowl quote? What is that? Some guy, some fucking numbnut challenged him to a one-on-one.

Oh, Scalabrini. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's like, dude, I'm closer to LeBron than you are to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Destroyed the guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, obviously I think that you would smoke me. I mean, with Jason Williams, with chocolate chocolate Jason Williams, you know, he did have like his foot was hanging off or whatever because of the motorcycle accident. Sure, sure. He has what's called a dropped foot. Yeah, I mean, the way you said it though.

Why? Because I said it was hanging off. And it seemed more severe than it was. Your foot was pretty severe, actually. It was really severe. And I was going at that foot. Fuck.

I was targeting the foot. As an animal. Yeah, come on. I'm a competitor. Do you still think you can beat Kaitlyn Clark one-on-one? Yeah. Well, I do think I could beat any female basketball. But I don't want to take down the sport because they're doing so great and I love what's happening in female basketball. But I don't think. And I have a daughter. I have a daughter. Do you think that's true? Do you think he could take it? Jay, they keep it a buck. Mind it a game, bro. Mind it a game. Mind it a game. Listen. You're not beating Kaitlyn Clark.

Did you see my paddle skills on my dragon net just up there? Are you telling me? You don't think I could beat? Why? Because she's such a good shooter. You know, me agreeing to come on this show. I knew I was going to get roped into some shit. I knew I was going to get roped into some shit. I'm looking over here for me. I'm like, I think I get a point on it. You know what I'm saying?

It's so racist. My roommate in college swore he could beat Eric Snow one-on-one. Remember Eric Snow from the Sixers? He was like, I got Eric Snow. I was like, you're out of your fucking mind. Eric Snow, I don't know if I could beat because he's so dense. You mean black by dense. Oh yeah, he's black. No, but it is fucked up. We got to stop that.

We got to stop what? Racism. Do you agree with that? JJ, we have to stop racism in America. Do you agree with that or not? Now that it's affecting us, we got to do something about it. Oh, my God. Do you agree or no? Do I agree? We should stop racism? Yes. Okay. Thank you. Oh, my God. That's a fucking softball question. Did you know that I recorded rap songs in college? No. We have to hear these.

Okay, we might need to bring back some racism. Hold on, hold on. I can't get rid of it completely. Hold on. We knew about the poetry. Well, so the poetry was really just rap lyrics, right? This is so interesting how racism turned into black poetry. When a black guy's a poet,

a poet he's a rapper when a white guy's a rapper he's a poet okay break it down break it down again it wasn't it wasn't good stuff like it wasn't good i actually have some i just want to point out okay it's because they can't catch from you i have one of your raps um but anyways so i like i didn't have any of the tracks right yeah and the guy that i recorded with who was black that was the issue um yeah yeah but he like we would be in dorm rooms like it was literally a you know a uh

You guys were alone in a mic, right? Were you allowed in the same dorm rooms down there? Yeah, we were. That was like 1920. They got rid of that. Oh, did they? Oh, even at Duke? Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. But anyways, so a couple of years ago, he's like, dude, I found the songs. And I'm like, send them to me. So he sends them to me.

And this was 2003. Okay. And me and him did a song. It was an anti-racism song. Jack J. Jack J. I was, hey, people accuse me of being this woke guy. I'm the woke guy on ESPN. I'm like, nah, man, I've always been like that. Do you have it? Can we listen to it? That one, I don't have my phone.

That one you don't have. Wait, there's other raps that you have? There's somewhere on my files, somewhere on my phone. That's awesome. I actually have to go find, because somebody did find some of, F.A., who does phenomenal research for us, found one of your poems, which might be a rap, so maybe we even say it. Some of them were more...

But here's the thing that I need to understand, because you were getting through like you were getting heckled like an insane amount when you're at Duke. Right. Like you just become this like poster child for all the hatred. And I think Duke kind of represents it's not only like a race thing. I think Duke represents like elitism. For sure. We look at them. We're like, oh, this is where all the money is, the power, the control. Yeah. And your face matched up with it.

even though you're like a homeschooled kid from Virginia. He does point when you say, when he pointed, it made it way more aggressive. No, I'm just saying it did. Wow. Coming from the guy with that haircut. Listen, I'm just copying him. I'm just trying to support my boy. The guy with that mustache. Okay, but I do have one of the... So here's the thing. They're calling you gay nonstop. And then in order to...

that, you start writing poetry. Take us through that. Take us through that line of thinking. It wasn't just like... Were you like, maybe I am. Think about this. So, you know NBA players...

College players, high school players, when you hit a shot, sometimes you hold your follow-through. And there was this guy at NC State who publicly, in an article, said he holds his follow-through like he's gay or something. LAUGHTER

I'm like, that's a good one. Nothing happened. Nothing happened. There was no like, hey, we need to cancel that guy. It was just like, oh, that's what he said. Yeah, he's kind of getting away and fucks through his shot. It was just different time. Different time. The worst, though, was like, it wasn't...

There was some stuff I was sensitive about. I had bad shoulder acne in college. I remember going to a UVA game and they had all these fake Duke number four jerseys and they painted red dots on the shoulders. The shit at Maryland was like... And Florida State too. Those two places were talking about raping my 12-year-old sister. No!

Like all this stuff about my older sister and my mom. So like there was a lot that wasn't just like, oh, this dude's a douche. It was like really targeted stuff.

I think I may have done it. I think I did a thing for ESPN where I was like, to combat this, I started writing poetry. The reality is I was writing rap lyrics from the time I was like 14 years old. We used to go to like, I remember vividly, you would say basketball camp. We'd get done with the camp and we've got like six hours till like everybody's going to go to bed and whatever.

And we'd fly out the next morning and we're like, hey guys, should we go like Cypher in the room? Like we just fucking freestyle in a battle rap. You were saying this to other dudes. Yeah, yeah. At Duke? Oh yeah, so I was in a fraternity my first two years. We couldn't be in a real fraternity, so we came up with PDF, which was five drink of 40. Okay. Five drink of 40. It was like nine of us. We had like sick gear. Hoodies and shirts. Yeah.

Basically, the fraternity's activities consisted of playing beer pong, getting drunk, going out to Chris Duhon's car, turning on an instrumental beat, and then freestyling. You're a better rapper than Chris Duhon. Could Chris spit?

He was fine. But you had him, though. Yeah, I had him. Okay, is this a bar from you? Just tell me if it's a bar, okay? A sharp thorn once cut my soul. The blood flowed, but no bandage would ever cover the wound. Is that rap or poetry? I don't know.

I don't know either. I asked the Lord, what am I to do? He said, son, I made the sky blue. The rain falls because of me. Leaves change colors on a fall tree. I was the inspiration for Martin Luther King. I'm the reason Ray Charles can sing.

I'm giving the strength to others through and through. And my son, I'll do the same for you. That's boring. That's kind of funny. Yo, you're like a white DMX dude. Was that you? I wrote that. You stuck the landing. I gotta be honest. You stuck the landing. I was really uncomfortable. You stuck the landing.

That religious one is fire, bro. So diplomatic. I wrote that. I wrote that. The MLK one. You don't have to answer that. You don't have to answer that. Come on, man. God can do all things. It's very simple. If DMX spit it, you'd be like, you'd have a few more N-words in it, and you'd be like, that's hot. I contributed to the racism by laughing that he's rapping. Dude, that's bars right there, bro. I'm telling you, man. That's bars. That's bars right there, bro. I was very uncomfortable. I'm the reason Break Charles can sing. Oh, man.

I'm going to take the others through and through. And my son, I'll do the same for you. I won't take away that back knee. Be the reason Ray Charles can see. Why would you help him do that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is a good point. Okay. I shouldn't have done this.

Okay, so listen, you're coming off of... Right now you've got the biggest podcast on the planet. Of course, you came on here so it won't see a second episode. But it's good. Go, go, go. I don't know why, but there is something very funny about those lyrics. Yes!

You don't know why? I can't stop laughing because of your delivery. Should I deliver it like you? No, no, no. Let me deliver it. Do more emo. I'm going to deliver it like you back in the day. Like a white boy. Hey, hey! I asked the Lord what I'm about to do. He said, son, I made the sky blue.

Okay, yeah, that was a rough one. The ending was good. You can't focus on the individual lines because then it really pops out at you. Okay, what was the funniest heckle you ever got? Was there ever a heckle? I want people to understand. There's going to be younger people probably watching this. You were arguably the most famous non-NBA player in the world at the time. Indisputably.

Who else? Who else? Who else? Non-NBA. I'm sure there was somebody. I'm sure there was somebody. I'm sure there was somebody. Great answer, dude. Do you not remember what was happening at this time? It was insane. I remember it vividly. No, non-NBA basketball player. Yeah, yeah. Oh, basketball player. Basketball. And one of the most recognizable figures. And this was at a time, I don't think it's as much now. The college game doesn't seem to maintain the start. You went four years. Yeah.

Yeah. And my, my draft class was the first year you couldn't come out of high school. So like, I was like the end of, I was the end of college basketball, not me personally, but like,

I was like the last guy to come out before everybody started the one and done thing. Kevin Durant was right after me one year. Then he went out to the NBA and he would come out of high school. Right. He was good enough to come out of high school. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was part of that was part of it was still college basketball then. Now I don't know what it is. Yeah. What is it now? I don't know. Did you watch the UVA game last night? No, no. Why? Why?

They had 14 points in the first half. They went nine minutes without scoring and then 10 minutes later on in the game without making a field goal. This is the women's game? No, this was like a play-in game. Two 10-seeds. No. Yeah. It was bad, man. And what do you think it is? It's just there's no reason for the talent to stick around. They're not even thinking about it. The G League, maybe? I don't think it's the G League as much. I think, truthfully, the one-and-done...

creates an environment where the best players are now one and done guys. And they never unpack their bags. Coach K, you should always talk about unpacking your bags, right? Being all in. Yeah. Their mind's somewhere else. You don't get any continuity. The transfer portal now, like Duke, you know, we've gotten a couple transfer portal guys, but...

We still are playing like 18 and 19-year-old kids. And then NC State, like the guy that starred for NC State in the ACC tournament is 24 years old. He's a full-grown man. Yeah. So it's just, it's a weird game right now. Have you spoken to Coach K about it at all? About the NIL and the transfer portal stuff? Or just in general, college basketball. Is he like this new...

I don't think he's a fan. I don't think any coach is a fan. Yeah, that makes sense. They all have to re-recruit every year. Every year. I got a kid. I recruit him in high school. He comes in. All right, now I got to re-recruit him so he doesn't accept a bag from whatever school. Yeah. It's totally different now. Announcements. United Arab Emirates. Not to be referred to as the towels. The Chamakis have spoken.

And your boy is coming back. They want more punishment. The Chamakis want more punishment. Okay?

I'm coming back. I will be out there May 22nd for another show in Abu Dhabi, the Etihad Arena. We are coming out there for Abu Dhabi Comedy Week, May 22nd. Okay. The presale for those tickets. Remember, presale went crazy last time. Show sold out on presale. So get on this. The presale for those tickets is Thursday, March 28th at 12 p.m.

Towel time. Not to be referred to as towel time. At 12 p.m. local time. Okay? 12 p.m. local time. Password is Andrew. I will see you all there. Also, America. God bless you. I'm coming. Houston, April 5th.

We added a late show in Charlotte, April 13th. Nashville, April 18th. Austin, the Moody Center, April 19th. And we added a late show in Phoenix, the Arizona Financial Theater, April 20th. I will see you all at TheAndrewSchultz.com. More tickets, more shows on sale at my website. Go check out those cities. Let's get back to the show. All right, guys, we're going to take a break real quick because I got to tell you about this.

Gaslit. Keep watching it. Keep telling people to watch it. Hey guys, I got 1.3 million subs. I love that. Thank you guys so much. You don't need to sub, you don't need to subscribe. What you need to do is watch it. Tell people if you like it, tell everyone, you know, let's get these views fucking crazy. Gaslit on my YouTube. Also there's Gaslit merch. If you enjoy the special on my website, you can find the link for Gaslit merch. And then a couple of quick dates. Uh,

Next week, I believe, next weekend, April 11th through the 13th, Tempe, Arizona. April 18th through the 20th, Denver, Colorado. May 10th, LA, all sold out. There are tickets available for Tempe and Denver.

But Gaslit, the special, guys, check it out. Thank you so much. 1.5 million views in two weeks is wonderful, but I want to keep that shit going. Thank you, guys. I love you. Let's get back to the show. College basketball back in the day was so much more interesting, especially your era. So you get all this scrutiny. It's insane. They're saying all this crazy stuff. Is there anything funny that people say to you? Is there anything that like a heckle that you laughed at? So-

Probably the worst, not the worst, because I didn't think it was that bad, but the same game that there were signs talking about anally raping my sister, she was 12. That was the same game where at the end of the game, the entire arena, I'm at the free throw line, we're up five, I've got basically like the game ceiling free throws. The entire arena is chanting, fuck you, JJ, right? Fuck you, JJ. Fuck you, JJ. Like that.

During warm-ups, I had noticed there was a group of students sitting front row right at half court, and they had T-shirts with my picture on it. Okay. And on the picture, it said, when I grow up, I want to name my kid J.J. Redick. So I went over before the game to get a closer look, and then they turned around, and it said, and beat him every day. Yeah.

I would never condone any sort of child abuse. But that's clever. That's clever. And so I make the free throws and I go over them at the end of the game and I'm like talking shit. I need a t-shirt. Give me a fucking t-shirt like that. And coach was furious. Did it fire you up when they were talking the shit? Or was there part of you that wanted to melt under the pressure of it? No, I didn't want to melt at all. It was like my first 10 games at Duke.

We had a bunch of home games. We played UCLA in Indy. Yeah. In like the Farmers Classic. I don't remember what the fuck it was called. Then we played Ohio State in Greensboro in the Big Ten ACC. And then we played all home games. So we come back from Christmas break and we go to Clemson. It's our first real road game. It's our first ACC game. And I come out for warmups and it's like, oh. This is how. Okay. I'm the guy that they've now chosen. I'm the next Duke guy they're going to hate.

And it, I mean, I had 22 and six that game. It was not about melting. It was like, all right, you're, you, you want me to be an asshole immaturity, but it was like, you want me to be an asshole. I'll be an asshole. What I don't understand is some of it was deserved. I mean, I, I look back, there was a, there's a moment in the tournament. That's why I want to ask like, why were you getting so much? I, I'm,

We're playing Illinois. This is the year before they made the Final Four. We made the Final Four in '04. They made it in '05. So we're playing Illinois in the Sweet 16. And I hit a couple shots in the second half on Luther Head. And I'm like doing weird shit with my head. I'm bobbing my head. I'm doing this. I'm smiling and laughing. - But you're not allowed to enjoy yourself 'cause you're a white man playing basketball? - I think Steph changed it for us.

I'm serious. Steph does that shit all the time. Yeah. Like, and everybody's cool with it, right? It annoys me a little. No, there used to be, I mean. There's not a single person who would say Steph Curry is annoying. Yeah, I don't find him annoying. You don't like him. I love him. I love Steph. What?

What are you talking about? You hate his game. You've said this many times publicly. You hate Steph Curry's game. You love Kyrie's game. This is blasphemy. I don't understand what this role reversal is. Did I say that? Did I say that? I'm going to have to check it. Back in a day, but. I'm going to have to check the clips. We just have them. I don't know.

Back in the day when we talked sports on the podcast. Yeah, you used to hate us. What did I say? I probably had a good argument. Go. No, you just didn't like his game that he was just all shooting and nothing else. Oh, yeah, but the argument for me was that I can't shoot. Yeah. It was sarcasm. I can't shoot, so I don't like the fact that the game is now three-point shooting. I just go to the basket and I get buckets.

So I like the guys who go to the basket and get buckets like Iverson because that was how I played the game. Like Allen Iverson more. Wow. But you did hate on him. I just love LeBron and he's in the way of LeBron.

And so I'm like, well, you kept LeBron from getting four more championships or whatever. So I've chosen to root against him. I'm sure he's an amazing guy. I love every single thing he does. Yeah. I just get annoyed that the guy that I want to be the greatest ever could have probably eight championships if it wasn't for the Warriors. But you're saying he made celebrating. OK, yeah.

Yeah. Got it. Okay. I'm wondering if there's anybody before him. I feel like a lot of people. Yeah. Before him. Like all the... No, but it was like... You had to be dunking and shit like that, I think is his point. Like being a shooter wasn't ever cool in our childhood. Name a cool three-point shooter. Reggie Miller wasn't cool. I loved Reggie. Reggie Miller was hated. I hated him. Reggie did all the shit. Yeah, he was hated. Yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah. But people hated Reggie.

Yeah. So shooting wasn't cool in Telstan. I didn't hate Reggie. I love Reggie. But where do you get the confidence, though? That's what I'm trying to understand. Like, where do you get the confidence to handle that kind of hate and scrutiny? Yeah, when you're 19 years old. Yeah. You know, I would say it was not confidence. There was the competitive part, which was very much easy. Like, I'm in the arena. I'm on a court doing what I love. That was easy. The confidence part was...

We haven't fully developed our egos at 18, 19 years old. I don't think it was confidence at all. It was actually insecurity. And I mean, I had to start seeing it there. I saw a therapist every week for three years at Duke from my sophomore year on. And it was because of like this, this whole notion, like I grew up a Duke fan. I wanted to go to Duke seven years old. I watched Leitner hit the shot. Mom and dad, I'm gonna go play at Duke. Right. I want to go to Duke and I get to Duke and I'm like, oh, this shit's fucking hard. Right. It's hard.

Not only that part of it, the scrutiny, but playing at Duke was hard. Yeah. It was a mental fuck every day. People get their... They bring you their A game every day. I got tested every single day. For? Oh, for whatever. Body language, chewing gum, you're chewing gum. My senior year, I set the ACC scoring record against Temple and...

They played a box in one on me. They had a guy, Marty Collins, who I'd played USA basketball with the season before. And Marty was like, he's like, hey man, John Chaney said, you're not getting the record today. We're throwing the whole fucking kitchen sink at you. We're going to play box in one. I needed like 11 points, right?

So I ended up scoring like 13 or whatever it was. They played a box and won the whole game. We win the game. We go to film session the next day. And occasionally in my career, when I would have like an okay first half or a bad first half, I'd put a piece of gum in my mouth just to like change things up. It's like a superstition, right? And coach, the next day in the film session, stops early in the second half. And he's like, what the fuck are you doing? Chewing gum. Your head was not right. And I was like,

Was it that or was it the boxing one? Yeah, it might be the boxing one. Was it that? So it was like shit like that. It was just like, it was just constant, right? So-

Through that process, I think ultimately it prepared me for the NBA because the NBA ended up being easy. Did you? Oh, sorry, go. Yeah, what was your reception when you first got to the NBA? Coming from this school? The NBA wasn't easy. I shouldn't say that. The NBA was easier. Was there any friction with other players who were like, oh, that's this fucking cocky kid. I'm going to humble him. Yeah, yeah, for sure. My teammates. Did they call you milk? Were they like, milk? Did they milk check you? That sometimes happens in football. Uh-oh.

Did they milk check me? No. I never heard that. So if there's a white player out there, they're like, milk. And then if there's a white DB, for example, you yell at your quarterback, you go, milk check. And then the quarterback looks and sees the guy guarding you is white. And then you just go long. No, I didn't get that. You never got milk checked? No. I mean, I got targeted. Yeah.

On defense? Yeah. Every single play? No, not every single play, but early in my career and then late in my career. I got targeted a lot. And are your teammates going beyond normal Ricky Haysing because of your U, or is it just like, and what are they doing? It was all normal. I was late for a couple practices in the second time.

They tied me to a chair with my clothes on and shoved me in a cold shower and then left me there. This is in Orlando? Yeah, this is in Orlando. Did Dwight stay in the shower with you? Oh, God. I should have told you. Shout out to Dwight! Dwight's like, I have a great idea. Honestly, strip him naked and throw him in a shower. The reason I say that it was easier, though, was because

The Duke experience, whether it was just the scrutiny and the hatred, whatever you want to call it, and...

for Duke and the intensity of that day-to-day. The spotlight. It was like, you get to the pros and it's like, okay, I know how to navigate these things now. I'm well equipped to navigate the pressures and the competition and all the shit that comes with it. And I guess you're not the biggest name in the NBA. You're the biggest name in the NCAA. But in the NBA, they got LeBron. I didn't expect to be. I didn't expect to be. I remember I was doing a...

the 21 Underworld Championships in Argentina going into my senior year, and Hoopsype wanted to talk to me. And one of the reporters wanted to talk to me. And so like the USA Basketball comms person was like, "Can you get on the phone with this person?" And I remember them asking me about my expectation level for the NBA.

And I started that was the same year I started taking Italian at Duke because I'd be like, it'd be cool to go play overseas. I didn't know expectation of like a long NBA career. And I was like, yeah, if I get to the next level, I don't expect to be a star. I'll be a role player. OK, so you knew that going in. I want to talk about NBA for a second, but I first want to talk about high school. You're playing basketball in high school.

And I imagine it feels like you're a superhero, right? Like you score whenever you want. It is. I just need to understand what that's like. Every single time the ball is going to you, every single time you put it up, nobody's upset about the shot. Is it the easiest game? Is it exciting? Does it get boring? Like what is high school when you are the best? Yeah.

It's interesting. So high school and AAU are two different things. Okay. Right. So my freshman year, I played varsity. Yeah. And I averaged like 17 a game. Wow. And then I went and played 17 and under. So like that's all rising seniors. I went and played 17 and under with Boo Williams, which was the other side of the state.

Didn't know any of the guys. Didn't know Boo. I had a person who had reached out to Boo and was like, hey, do you need a shooter for the summer tournaments? So I meet them in Atlanta. That experience, that was hard because I'm going against DeJuan Wagner. I'm going against Tyson Chandler, D-Wade, Darius Miles. All those guys are rising seniors. So that was hard.

I went to a public school in Southwest Virginia. Yeah. So like game to game. Yeah. It was like, well, I wasn't saying I was ever on cruise control cause it was like, but it was easy. You could do whatever the fuck you wanted. Yeah. But I couldn't because I had a great high school coach.

Okay, so the coach is limited, but if you want to put up 50 a game, do you think that... The most I scored in high school was 43. That was the most shots I took in a high school game was 25. It was the state championship my senior year. The most shots I took in high school was 25. I was not like... Let's say you were like DeJuan Wagner where they're basically just going every single play, do whatever you want. 50 easy? I'm just trying to understand how easy high school basketball is when you're a superstar.

Again, I think it's like night to night. If I said to myself, I'm going to get 30 tonight, I'm going to get 30. That easy? Yeah, easy. Okay. Yeah, especially junior, senior year. By that time, I'm grown. I'm fully developed as a high school player. Nobody could bully you. Yeah, I was like, that was easy. But I also like... The other thing, again, Billy Hicks, my high school coach, we played a very specific motion system. He had gotten this...

I think we called it thumb up. It was like four across the elbow and the free throw line. So wings, two guys at the elbow, and it was just a movement set. Like a Stanford offense or whatever that is? Oh, that's Princeton. Princeton, that's like back doors. This was more like...

curls into pin downs curls into pin downs so like i learned how to play off the ball in high school we didn't run like high pick and rolls or iso basketball and so we all kind of ate in that system it wasn't like it wasn't geared toward yeah exactly there were i had a couple plays like i would get an iso on the left block if they need a buck and then if i got hot i would just kind of like give my coach a look i remember like my senior night coach k came i was coming off an injury

We were playing at one of our rivals in our district and I got hot in the first half and I kind of like looked at him and he's like, let him go, which was basically my clearance to get a heat check in. Okay. Okay. So that is one of the questions I have. And I do want to talk about NBA stuff and there's tons of people I want to talk about in the NBA, but is getting hot real? Yes. Cause I'm sure you've spoken to the analytics guys and they say there is no such thing as getting hot. Momentum is not real. Whatever, blah, blah, blah. But,

You felt it. I'm sure you remember the times in your career where you feel it. What is getting hot? Do you know what flow state is? Yes. Yes. It's just flow state. So it's no thinking. Yeah. Doing. Your body, it's every shot, every motion. It's just like perfect muscle memory. There were games. I'm being serious when I say this. There were games where I would shoot like eight for 12 and I'd be like, man, my shot didn't feel good tonight.

And then there could be a game where I shot eight for 16 and I was like, I was in the flow state tonight. Yeah, wow. Because it's like, again, at that level in the NBA, your margin at my size is like... That's why the analytics guys don't get it because they're looking at the data. I did a senior project in stats on the idea of like the hot hand. Yeah. And at the time, it was very much undisputed. There was no such thing. Yeah. And so I do the project.

And I came to the same conclusion. And of course, now I think pretty much that has been debunked. There was a book about it a few years ago.

about the theory of the hot hand and it was pretty much debunked. It was debunked that there is no such thing as that. No, there is. There is a hot hand. Oh, that they actually can prove. But no, the idea that there isn't a hot hand. Yeah, the idea that we're not real, et cetera. Got it. There is a hot hand. For sure. So we believe it. There is data to back it up. When you're on stage, man, you know it. 100%. When you're on stage, you know. Perfect connection. You know exactly. When you're killing it, you know it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're not operating in the deficit. You're not worried about what's going wrong. You are fully present and you are locked in. Was there a way for you to access it frequently or was it just random?

There were ways to try. A lot of it became about like the prep, the routine. Even going back to high school, I was always like a visualization person. So I had this free period.

And I would walk through the gym. And I don't know why. Because we had an auxiliary gym. I don't think there was really ever like gym class by the time you were like a junior or senior. So like I would walk through the gym on game days. And I would like picture the spots on the court. And I'd leave the gym. And then for the rest of the day, I'm visualizing coming off of pin downs. I'm visualizing my footwork. I'm visualizing like the angle with which I want to release the ball, where the defender is. I always had the ability to do that.

And so that was one of my sort of like preps to get into the flow state. Wow. That was one of the preps. Even at like 16, 17 years old, you're doing that. I was probably doing it at like 15. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. But Steph, Steph is able to access better than any basketball player. It's kind of, it's miraculous. Yeah. Unbelievable. It's unbelievable. He's, uh, you know, something that's interesting about like the, uh, the Steph, I got to watch Steph up close when we were in San Francisco doing shot shooting shows. And, uh,

I don't think his speed translates on TV. When you see him up front, he is by far the fastest. It's like no one's even close. But on TV, it seems like the game is operating in slow motion. It's the same thing with Brunson. I'm watching Brunson be so fucking effective, get to whatever position he wants to get to, but I don't see him as a freakishly fast dude. So I'm trying to understand what creates game speed here.

All right, so I'm going to actually grab this real quick. Yeah, you got something for us? He's got to take a call. Oh, no, I got something for you. I just got to find it. You got some more lyrics for you, bro. You got bars for us? Can you explain this in a run? No, I just want to get all this stuff in here. So this idea of like an athlete in basketball, basketball athleticism.

So what goes into that? So historically, or traditionally, I should say, we think of basketball athletes as being vertical and linear, right? Fast and up. All right, so-

These are the things that go into being a great basketball athlete. Change of direction, balance, coordination, change of pace. We talked about the deceleration before we started, which is the most fascinating thing in today's NBA. Strength, vertical plane, pliability, which is just flexibility, mobility, reflexes, stamina. And then the cognitive side of that is pattern recognition, spatial awareness, which is an easy way to say court mapping. Nicola Jokic, court maps,

anticipation, and then cognitive load. That's the mental bandwidth piece. How many things can you process at once? At the same time, yeah. Right? So it goes back to what you said about me as an athlete when we first started. Like, I am not a great athlete in the NBA.

I'm not relative to the average person. I'm a great, I'm in the 1%, but I'm not in the 1% of the 1% of the, you know what I mean? Yeah. So all these guys that you're like, how do you explain it? It's because they have all of this shit. Maybe they don't have vertical. Maybe they don't have linear. Luka Doncic is not a vertical or linear athlete, but he's got the best breaks in the fucking world. And can you explain why breaks make it so effective? Well, so,

What he does, actually, this is what I wanted to talk to you about. All right. So what he does is like there's a constant change of pace. He's on balance. He's trying to get you off balance. Once you're off balance, he's still on balance. He changes his pace. He has created an advantage at that point. So now he's got you on his hip. Potentially he's blown by you. Maybe you reach in, he goes through, he can draw the foul, whatever. But let's say you catch up to him.

You're now going in acceleration full speed, and he goes into deceleration, you fly by. So on his drives, his ability to decelerate is special. Yeah. And he's very effective without having to create immediate acceleration. Like I remember, and I'm not in any way comparing myself to him, but I remember for me, in order to have any competitive advantage when I was playing,

I had to make a commitment to going to the basket after one move and put everything into it because I didn't have that extreme. I had a maybe decent first set, but I'm committed 100%. Now, at that commitment 100%, I didn't have the brakes to stop if the guy was with me. But that was the only way that I knew. And when I started to play at higher levels and guys could stay with me, it was way more difficult for me to score. To see him do it at medium speed, it feels like,

And the second you're on his hip, it's over. Right. So it's like, it doesn't, it's not like he needs to blow by you. He just needs you here. Once he gets you off balance, it's easy. And he's 6'8". That's it. Yeah, yeah. 30-ish, depending on the day. Seems incredibly strong. Yeah, his lower body's insane. Okay, so what about- His lower body's insane. Wait, wait, wait, wait, what do you mean? Like, it's all legs. Oh, yeah, it's strength. So that's the brakes. Yeah. What I was gonna say about Brunson and Lucas in this category, and I put like Kyrie in this category, is-

like i i was thinking last night before i went to bed because i watched some of the mavs game against the spurs and then once the nuggets game came on i really wanted to watch that game so i watched the full nuggets t-wolves game and i was laying in bed and i was thinking about how we break down certain players and like what a scouting report is on a certain player and for some guys it's like i was at a very simple scouting report right but for some guys it's like what was yours what was what was yours

You have to be aware of where he is at all times. He's in constant motion. I like to turn over my left shoulder. You could force him out to the right side where he turns over his right shoulder. Turn over your left shoulder means you're getting the ball. So the basket's that way. I wanted to turn this way over my left shoulder. So you're coming around. So the defender's on this side. Yeah.

my right hand is here, you can't get to the ball. I turn the other way, I have short arms, alligator arms, negative wingspan. But I was thinking about certain guys where it's like, all right, this guy in isolation, he likes to go left. This guy, if he's playing and pick a roll, he wants to come to his right hand, he's going to shoot a one-two dribble pull-up. This guy's better finishing right. There's some guys that just defy breakdown.

Luka defies a breakdown. What is his scouting report? Jalen Brunson, by the way, I've watched him over the last two years. I played with Jalen. I knew he was good. I did not know he was going to be this good. Jalen Brunson, it's like, is there an answer for him? Because he can score going right. He can score going left. He can shoot threes off the dribble. He can shoot catch and shoot. What makes Jalen so good, going back to that, he's got a lot of those qualities, right?

I don't think he's the fastest guy. Certainly not a vertical athlete. He's always on balance. And he does everything, every trick, the footwork, the body shifts, the handle. He does everything to get you off balance, but he's never off balance. The handle's underrated too. That's another thing. Incredible control of the ball and ability to change directions. And he has that kind of almost like, you know, remember IT's dribble?

Oh, yeah. You know, where it's like he kind of lulls you to sleep almost and then first step. Yeah. See you later. I feel like Jason's got a Jalen's got a little bit of that. Do you know what a keep action is? No. A keep action. So Draymond Green does this a lot. So you throw him the ball and you go to chase it or he goes into a dribble handoff on the other side. Dribble handoff is just mean you dribble at somebody and you hand it off. Right. So when you keep action is you dribble at somebody and

Your guy then tries to help and you just keep it and go, right? So Jalen Brunson will bring the ball up on the right side of the floor and he will go to a dribble handoff with the other guard and he'll do this and just keep it, right? I'm at a game. I have a friend who has courtside seats. So he invited me and we're at a game and I'm sitting courtside across from the Knicks bench and looking at Tibbs.

Knicks are going that way. Everyone is sort of backpedaling near Tibbs. And Tibbs calls seven keep or whatever they call their keep action. Audibly, anyone sitting there can hear it. Hear exactly the... And I'm like, Jalen Brunson, keep action. Here we go. And Jalen Brunson drills to the right side, does his thing. Keep action. Wide open layup. I'm like, how? Yeah, how? How?

Memphis was playing a bunch of G League guys. So that was part of it. But also like, you know, it's coming. Yeah. The best players, you know what they really want to get to. And you can't stop. And they still get to it. They still get to it. Michael Jordan wanted to get to his right hand. And it's going to go. Have you seen this shit?

Are we done with the 90s? I hate this. Who's paying for this? This is your podcast co-host. There's a media smear campaign out there for Michael Jordan. And there's all these people that are taking these clips and saying how trash basketball was in the 90s as if we didn't fucking watch it. You thought it was trash? No.

So MJ does whatever he wants now. And they tried to say MJ doesn't have a left hand and then they broke it down and it's like he goes to the left just as much as he goes to the right now. This is a smear campaign. This is a smear campaign. I don't love it. This is... I, you know, because of some things that have happened on First Take and The Old Man and the Three, which is my other podcast, because of some things that I've said, I get to have this reputation as like destroying the older generation. And it's like,

what did you call them janitors plumbers and firemen there we go but here's everything i've ever said no it's even smeared in fact what are the facts here then michael jordan's a fireman in the night no i was talking specifically about the players that bob koozie played against the 1950s okay this is different in in the 1950s nearly every professional athlete in every sport was white had what

Don't get me started on the quota. Talk to us about the Utah Jazz. Go. No, don't get me started on this. But every professional athlete, not every, but most professional athletes...

had a summer job they didn't train year-round like we did they literally were plumbers and firemen and welders and farmers so it was a matter of fact that he was you also say that i i think the implication is they're less athletic they're less good but they were less good let's be let's be in the 1950s but that's just a matter of what they got paid and they had to be they weren't like hey i want to be a plumber and i'll play basketball on the side

You know what I mean? Like they're very good basketball players who had to make ends meet, as was Bob Cousy. I can absolutely, I've been so consistent on this, and yet people are like, you trashed prior generations. I've been consistent on this. The first time I ever commented on any of this was right after the top 75 list came out. Yeah, and you were pissed that fucking Dwight Howard wasn't on it. And all I said was, we should absolutely celebrate the greatest players in every era. What they accomplished, who they were as players. We should celebrate that.

But you can't tell me that Dolph Shays was a better basketball player than Tracy McGrady or Kyrie Irving or Klay Thompson or Dwight Howard. It's not based in any sort of fact. Now, relative to the competition, you could make an argument, right? Relative to the competition, which is what I've been consistent on. Celebrate what players were able to do in their era. So I get knocked for, you know, I trashed Larry Bird. Dominique Wilkins has been on like 19 different podcasts talking about how stupid I am.

for saying that Larry Bird is a top 10 player of all time and one of the greatest shooters ever. But objectively, he's not a top five three-point shooter. He's just not. And the argument against that is, oh, well, if he had played in today's era, he would be a top five. What? That doesn't even make sense. That's not based in reality or fact. Wait a minute, but was there a three-point line early in his career? Three-point line was 1979, 1980, I believe was the first year of the three-point line. Chris Ford.

Made the first three-pointer ever. But when does he come in the league, Bird? He was the class of 79, wasn't he? Okay, so right. So he's in it. So the game is a little different. But you're saying the data doesn't show that he's a top three-point shooter. Yeah, he shot like three a game or something. Yeah, I mean, 37% for his career. Draymond Green just passed him in the all-time three-point list. I believe Richard Jefferson is right above him, too.

I'm going to say Richard Jefferson's one of the best. So what was Larry Bird good at? Larry Bird was one of the greatest players ever. He was a great shooter, first of all. He was a great shooter. Incredible passer. Insane passer. He's also, to me, like when I watch, because I watch full games and then I watch, of course I watch the highlight montage that we all watch. I love watching full games on YouTube. It's one of the greatest gifts ever of YouTube. But

He's another guy who defied a definition to me. He defied a definition. Jordan defied a definition. He defied a definition. They're transcendent players. Transcendent.

That's how I look at him. But not a good three-point shooter? No, he was a good three-point shooter. But one of the best shooters ever? But Mad Dog that day said to me, but Larry Bird won a three-point contest. I'm like, are you serious? Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's been a lot of guys that have won three-point contests. Did you ever win three-point contests? Nah, I fucking never made it past the first round. Wait, why? Well, the first year I shot it. Ah, okay.

Because the rack is not on the right side. If you had the rack on the right side. What drives me crazy though is like, again, like. You need people talking shit to you while you're shooting. That's the problem. And then there's like back.

Yeah. We have like cameras in the arenas now. Yeah. We track everything. Yeah. I can tell you that Wemba Yama's release point is at 9.4 feet. I can tell you that LeBron James this year on catch and shoot threes, his right shoulder is turned six degrees more to the right. So he's more square to the basket. You would know catch and shoot threes very well. So my point is- Are you a catch and shoot guy? I was for like-

No. Of course I was. But I was also one of the top off-the-dribble jump shooters in the NBA for years. I knew that about you. Was one of the best mid-range shooters in the NBA for years. It wasn't just like, when people say spot-up, I'm like, I didn't even practice spot-up three. Yeah, you didn't even practice it. No, I didn't practice spot-up three. I didn't practice it. Why would I? Why would he? Why would he? He's funny.

on the floor. What am I getting? He's putting it on the floor. I'm moving. Also moving, dickhead. Yeah. Come on, bro. Yeah, dude. You see how these Browns try to fucking take us down, man? It's fucked up, bro. You don't have to take this. This is what your senior thesis was about, actually, is you not being Yo, did you ever cross anybody up in the league?

Is there anybody that you put on the floor? On the floor? No. I mean, I had one on LeBron. You crossed him up? Yeah, but I missed the shot, so it doesn't count. Damn. Hold on. No, Steph was off a jab step, though. I mean, he hit the deck. He hit the deck? Yeah. You made Steph hit the deck? Is this early ankle Steph or late ankle Steph? No, this was game seven of the 2014 playoffs.

Jab step. That one hurt a lot. No, so like he was in help. Yeah. Chris swung it to me and the angle he closed out on me, I would always, especially on the left side so I get to my right hand, when guys would close out that way, I would drive against the closeout.

That would drive against the closeout. Wait a minute, do we have... Oh, there we go. Oh my God. Look at this. Hold on, hold on, hold on. I think the CP just swung it to an early out position. Wait, here we go. Bye! Dropped him. That one hurt me. I'm not sure how he fell, though. It was not like a special move. That was the most basic move ever. Hold on, hold on. But you faked what? I didn't fake. I just drove away from his...

his body angle because he was terrified of you putting it on the floor right no he was trying let's watch that again dude yeah let's watch that again because he read the scouting report he's like he's jj he's a catch-and-shoot guy that is fucked up that they use that against us they really do okay so you drop you put steph in the dirt

You crossed the fuck out of LeBron. I don't know. Who do you not take down? Why do you try to take down this generation's heroes? You try to take the last generation's heroes. I'm not taking anyone down. Bro, Larry Bird, you said couldn't hold your jock straight. You said Steph is on the ground when he plays D against you. Obviously, there's some ego here, you know? Mm-hmm.

Yeah. You sent Mark the clip before the pod. You're like, yo, bring this up randomly. I don't know why you said to me that. Google YouTube, right? It's from our town. But I think Steph killed the white boy shooter. I think that error is... Yeah, because that used to be us. Yeah. Except for me, I never was a shooter. I would go to the bathroom. Explain that further. All right. So back in the day, and I know it sounds crazy, but whenever there was a white boy on the court, we would just assume he's a shooter. And most of the time, they weren't a shooter. Yeah.

And so now that he's turned the game into shooting, everybody's a shooter now. So it's like...

He took away the one thing I had left. He took away the one thing. He took away our superpowers. Him making shooting cool made black people be like, oh, I'll shoot too. And now, what place is there for you guys? You know what I mean? They're taking your jobs, dude. They really are. Sorry. That's because you dropped them. He's like, oh yeah? So what should we take back? What should we take back? Deceleration. We're good at that. Oh yeah, we can go slow. We don't have abs.

acceleration. We just had a 15 minute conversation on the part of, you know, the coolest thing to play slow down. Luca guy's really good at getting slow out there on the court. Dude. So good. But being slow is the new fast. It's the new fast. It is. You can do it like Luca. Then it's cool. But yeah,

Like, you can't. But also, don't you think that Luca gets away with stuff because he's so charming with the female refs? I've never noticed that. Oh, you didn't know? Oh, he's just so suave, dude. He's got that Balkan suave. I love that what you put in the Google bar was Luca Riz. He's a female ref.

I'm not my brain. It's the first video, right? Gen Z Google. Yeah, yeah. It's the first. Yeah, exactly. Look at this. Look at him riz this girl up. She can't even control herself. Look at this. Oh, what's up, shawty? Uh, yes, I fell. Oh! Oh!

That's what we can take back, flirting. We're good at flirting. Yeah, we can take that back. Yeah. White guys are the best at flirting. I mean, you saw his co-host the other day on a bench, but... Wait, what happened? What happened? Why are they giving LeBron so much... LeBron can't even be friendly with the owner of the team he's on without everybody making a big deal of it. It's a shame. That's... What do you call that? Sexism. Yeah, that's sexism. That's sexism. You know what I realized just coming on the show? What is that? Just so...

you guys are here you guys are here for the right reason you're here to just break down up institutional barriers yeah yeah just like you dude you would do it through rap we do it through podcasting man we're trying to break the ceiling bro yeah we're allies exactly you're not late to practice you are an ally why were you late to practice what do you think that was about you were on cpt

What is that? Shut up. That was great. They don't teach you that at Duke, bro. That was great. CPD? Chinese people time? No, no, no. Alex is the one who can only tell you what it is. It's color people time. We're known to be a little late. Indians are too. Yeah, we call it IST, which is weird. Indian Standard Time. Indian Standard Time. But white people, we always show up on time. You were 15 minutes early.

That is true. You caught him before me? I was 19 minutes early. You know what's crazy? He's supposed to be 30 minutes early, but C.P.

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forthepeople.com slash flagrant, or dial pound law, that's pound 529 from your cell phone. That is forthepeople.com slash flagrant, or pound law, pound 529 from your cell. This is a paid advertisement, but that don't mean I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. Let's get back to the show. Okay, so you're going into the NBA going, how long do you think your career is gonna be? I know you're learning Italian. You're like, I might play overseas, but you get drafted and-

How long do you think you're going to play? One. And two, are you just thinking about, okay, this is my chance to make generational wealth and then I'm out of here? Or are you going, I'm winning an NBA championship? What is going through your mind when you go to Orlando? The first thing was like, can I get on the court? Which that took a while. There's a process. I mean this. There's a process for every NBA player. It was like, can I get on the court? Can I get playing time?

Can I like show that I'm good? Can I get paid? And in a lot of times, like for me early in my career, I played on the greater Orlando team. It was about winning a championship. I played against the Lakers in 2009, which was my third year. I was still on my rookie contract. In terms of longevity, like,

I stayed four years. So I turned 22 right after the draft. Yeah. So I play the four years. I'm 26 in 2010, first time being a free agent. And I really thought I was going to get a five-year deal from Boston for the full mid-level. Were you guys talking? No, no. I did not think that. But I played well against them two straight years in the playoffs. So they're like, okay, we won this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then Perk gets hurt in game six of the finals against the Lakers.

So they used the mid-level on Jermaine O'Neal because Perk was going to be out that season. And so I sat there for 10 days and I had to wait on LeBron. So a bunch of guys signed. And then there was like a few teams that still had cap space that were waiting on LeBron. Milwaukee. Chicago was one of them. So I signed with Chicago. But it was a three-year deal. And I remember thinking at the time like, all right, 29, maybe I could re-up.

But the reason I wanted a five-year deal, because I was thinking 31, I'm an undersized shooting guard with a negative wingspan. I'm likely this is going to be my last real contract. So you're already looking at your mortality. And then I made more money in my last four years than I did in my first 11 years. Okay, so take us through that. You're going from Orlando. I thought you go Orlando, Milwaukee. I was a restricted free agent. So I'm on my honeymoon.

So I spent 10 days stressing out on my honeymoon. I finally signed with Chicago. I'm in Florence. I signed with Chicago. I've got to wait. We then go to Barcelona and the entire, we didn't even like, we didn't do shit in Barcelona, but walk around and talk. Cause we were like, are we going to Chicago? We don't know any Chicago. Should we, should we move to Chicago? Should we live in Chicago? Should we have an off season home? Should we like, what do we do? Like we need a home base. Like it was just like this really

uncertain period yeah so i didn't really even enjoy barcelona to be honest with you and then the last day there orlando had seven days to match yeah so on the seventh day they said we're matching the contract you have to go back right so i then went back to orlando the big thing for me was my last year in orlando was our sort of our rebuild dwight left got traded to la and

Stan was let go. But you're hooping. They bring in Jacques Fon, and Jacques came to me in preseason, and he's like, I don't want you to start, because if you start, it's you, Aflalo, and Jameer. We're super undersized. We're going to start more heartless. So you're going to come off the bench, but I want you to be my Ginobili. I'm going to literally, it was the first time in my career where it was like, we're going to run plays through you. When you're on the court, we're running offense through you. So I play well, and that was like, to me, that was the turning point in my career. So I signed with LA, and...

The summer after my first year in LA, the season ends, I'm 29. I'm getting ready to turn 30. I'm getting ready to have my first kid. Steve Nash lived like two blocks from me. So I keep running into him and I didn't really know Steve, but he was always super kind to me. And one day I ran into him and I was like, hey, can I have coffee with you? So we went and had coffee and I just said to him, dude,

You're one of the few guys at that point that had gotten better in their 30s. He was an all-star in Dallas. It wasn't like he was a bad, but when he went to Phoenix, he got better in his 30s. How did you do it? And he gave me some advice. What did he say? Shorter and harder. You don't need to shoot 800 shots. I know what you're going to say. Can you not be a child for five seconds? Yeah.

He cannot. What do you mean? Dude, I didn't do anything. You know, what? Okay, I'll reword that for you. The two white basketball players, what's the best thing, short and hard? Be more efficient in your training. And I'd always worked and I'd always worked on my game, but it wasn't about volume. It was about every specific thing that you were going to do on a basketball court, do it at game speed,

And you don't need 20 reps, do 10 perfect reps. So my workouts ended up being the same amount of time, hour to an hour and 15 on the court every day. But they were more taxing.

Is that a better word for you? Yes. They were more taxing. Thank you. Okay. So you started working out. I really feel there's a Jewish side. Yeah. More taxing. You started working out harder or more taxing workouts and you found that that benefited you more. You weren't like tired for the games. You didn't feel like your body would be down more. I actually, I ran like on a track. Yeah. Or like I would go run like five miles at a specific speed to like build a base level heart rate. I did that throughout my 20s. By the time I got to like

30, 31 and all my off-season workouts, my basketball workout was so difficult that I didn't need to supplement it as much. Now, two weeks before the training camp started, I would go find a turf field or I'd go find a track and I would do those cardio workouts. But

my basketball workouts were so difficult that like by the end of it, I've lost five pounds in water weight. I've built up my cardio. And so being able to like play and move at that speed all the time, that was essentially what created an advantage for me. Okay. So you go to the Clippers. You're already balling before you go to the Clippers though. You're already showing the league that you can score. Yeah. Doc Rivers didn't save my career, if that's what you're asking me. I wasn't going to ask it, but it's funny. Okay.

What's up with you and Pat Bev going at it, our boy Pat Bev? That's my guy, man. Okay, good. That's my guy. I don't know. Okay, so you go there. You're already hooping. You go there. Do they bring you there specifically for that? Is this just a good match? Do you get a conversation where they're like, hey, we see what you can do. You're going to get a lot of touches here and make it happen? Well, so I get traded at the end of my last year. My contract is expiring. They trade me for Tobias Harris, who was a young player at the time on Milwaukee who wasn't playing a lot.

So I go to Milwaukee. We lose in the first round to the Miami Heat. And I thought I was going to go back to Milwaukee. And by the time it got like three... Typically, like the team, your incumbent team can have some contact with you right before free agency. They can, you know... It's not like a full negotiation, but they'll like... They'll check in with you or whatever. So it's like crickets for like two months. And I'm like, okay, Milwaukee's not going to happen. So...

My agent calls me in. I was on vacation for my birthday anniversary. I'm in Napa. My agent calls me and is like, can you be in LA in two days? The T-Wolves and the Pistons want to meet with you. So I'm like, okay. So I'm going to meet with Flip. I'm going to meet with Joe Dumars.

So we decided to rent a car. And all they had at the time was like this two-door Nissan. Nice. It was great. Drove, literally it was my first time doing that drive. All the way from Napa, all the way to LA. We made stops in Big Sur. We made stops in Santa Barbara. It was awesome. Get to LA. I meet with Flip. I meet with Joe. Flip offers a contract.

And on our way down there, Chris Rivers, Doc's wife at the time, had texted Chelsea because Chelsea had taught her in Pilates. She said, can JJ have Doc's number? So Doc reaches out that night when free agency starts. Can you have dinner tomorrow? So I've now met with the Pistons and the Wolves. I go have dinner with Doc. And at that dinner, he said, he said, I think you've been used wrong. I want to use you like Ray Allen.

Now, I don't know if that was a recruiting pitch because I had talked a lot and Ray knows this. I just had him on my podcast. Ray knows this. Like Ray was the guy I wanted to be. I wanted to be Ray Allen. I didn't want to be a white shooter. I wanted to be Ray. Yeah.

Early Ray or late Ray? Early Ray. JJ? Early Ray. JJ. He was dunking on people. I know. I'll never forget in high school when they would do the rankings and they would give comps for players. My comp was always a catch and shoot guy. One time, I got Ray Allen as my comp. And it was like a dream come true. I was like, I've made it. Ray is my comp.

Anyway, so when I went to LA, I got all the Boston stuff that Doc ran for Ray. I got all that shit. It was great. And he was forthcoming with this. He was like, listen, we really want you to cook. Go out there, shoot. But I didn't even know I was going to start. That's the thing. I remember first day of training camp, we went to San Diego that year. And...

Jamal Crawford was still there right and Willie green had started the year before they'd used Jamal is like a bench player or not six man, whatever and I remember having a conversation Jamal's like do you know who's gonna start? He's like no, I don't know you asked Jamal Yeah, so then I go to T Lou who was an artist at the time I go to T Lou and I'm like I was like who's who's starting who's starting like I want to have some like headspace as I go into my first practice with the Clippers and

And he looked at me and he goes, you motherfucker. Like that. And I was like, okay. So that was like a big, I mean, I did that. Was there an ego issue with Jamal? No. With fam? No. He's the man. No, him and I are, yeah. Also, I love him coming off the bench. Yeah, that's what I think he knew. Just give him the ball. Great, because Doc also liked having all bench, at the time at least, had liked having all bench units. Yeah. So Jamal just got to cook when he was out there. Did you ever try, like in practice, just try to stay in front of him?

Jamal and I will never forget this one practice. It was probably Glenn Davis was there. So I think he's doing porn, but yeah, he is filming. Yeah. Filming it for now. That's how it starts. Yeah. But we were working on like some, some player we were playing against was going to play ISO. So, you know, I'm on the starting team. Jamal's on the second unit. So Jamal gets to be the ISO guy.

And he scored on me once. And Jamal carried the ball, let's be honest. Jamal carried the ball. The hate. The hate, bro. By the way. So he scored on me once. Everybody's fucking gassing him up, gassing him up. So then I get a couple stops or whatever. And I'm like, all right, now it's my turn. Give me the ball. So I'm kind of going to him. And I score a couple times and talking shit. How did you score on him? Yeah, who would pass you the ball? I crossed him over, hit a little floater in the lane, that sort of thing.

Come on. Mom and I, so it's like literally we're on the right quadrant, high right quadrant. Everybody's cleared out and we're just like dancing. Yeah, you don't got to lie here. Yeah. Anyways, baby gassed me up after practice. Yeah, what he said, he's like, yo, he can't hold you.

Jamal and I never once had a rivalry. Really? No. From day one. He's like the greatest teammate. He's the man. I've heard he's like, he takes incredible care of his body. Greatest teammate. Super smart guy. Doesn't smoke. Doesn't drink. Yeah. Gets to sleep. Handles the basketball. Unbelievable. Never done a ball handling drill in his life. Get the fuck out of here. That's what he claims. So a guy like that, what does he just have? Like incredibly fast wrists or whatever that is? Or...

It's just super long. He can get to the ball. So he's got it on a string. I think that's part of it with Kyrie too. I don't know his wingspan relative to like his body. Like everybody's shaped different. I remember DeAndre Jordan. I'm like, dude, you have no torso.

He's all legs. No torso. He's all legs. Vince Carter and I, Vince is like 6'6". I'm like 6'4". So if Vince Carter and I sat next to each other like this, I'm like two inches taller than him. Oh, he's all legs too. He's all arms and legs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't know. I feel like Kyrie, maybe, I don't know his wingspan, but I feel like Kyrie's like, you know, anatomically is just like built so that he can handle the ball. Yeah. He's obviously worked at it too.

Yeah, and just unbelievable touch like finishing ability. What is that? What do you think that would be touch to describe it like technically? Yeah, did you oh here's a better question Did you think you had good touch prolific shooter? But did you think you had good touch around the rim a few years where my float game was pretty good? Okay My finishing numbers were pretty good like prime of my career. I had a shoulder issue in to the summer of 2016 and

It was right after season. I led the league in three-point shooting that year. I used to do the walkaway, you know the Steph walkaway where you shoot? Like that year I had a few of those where like I'd shoot and I'd turn and run up court. It felt good. I'm not gonna lie. It felt pretty good.

But my wife and I went to Santa Barbara after the season, and I've got a soon-to-be one-year-old, and I'm throwing him in the pool. And I, like, fucked my shoulder up. I got an MRI. There was nothing, like— Structurally wrong with it. Structurally wrong with it. The rest of my career, my shoulder was fucked up. So you know how Mark Tolfolz, when he shoots, his shoulder goes like this? Yeah. So the rest of my career, I did that. It really actually affected me the most on floaters and layups.

Like even I coach my kids and I'll be demonstrating a drill and like sometimes like I'll go shoot an uncontested right-handed layup and I'll miss it because my shoulder just like I can't activate my scapula correctly. I have a bad scapula movement. Yeah. Same exact thing. Yeah. And you make up for it by just moving your entire shoulder. Yeah. Instead of doing this rotation. Yeah. I used to when I when I would shoot free throws at the end of my career. So normally I would just shoot free throws like this. Right. But at the end of my career, I had to put the ball out.

And keep your shoulder down. Otherwise, this thing would come up and I'd be shooting like this. Okay, so what happens with the three-point shooting then? I compensated. How? I'd sometimes shoot like that and then I'd just compensate for the angle of my shot. What does that mean? Well, again, I wasn't a catch-and-shoot guy. Spot on. But on the move, you're not actually shooting at a moving target, but you are.

So like if you're coming off a pin or like I remember there's one shot I made. You can pull it up if you want. I'll go on the text. There was one shot I made. We were playing. It was LeBron's first year in L.A. So it was my second year in Philly. We were playing LeBron on like a Sunday ABC game.

Ben gets a long rebound. I'm over in the right corner in front of their bench and I'm on a dead sprint to the right corner. Ben's doing his little thing and he throws it to me and I'm on a dead sprint and I look down to make sure I'm inbounds. I catch the ball, kind of turn all in one motion and I shoot it behind the backboard.

And the shot did not feel good because my shoulder did the thing. It wasn't like I would occasionally get to shoot a pure shot where like my shoulder didn't do it, but my shoulder did the thing. So I'm like behind the backboard, Reggie Bullock fouled me. It was a four point play. He's in my lap. And so I'm like, literally like, all right, I've got to, you know, in the split second, I'm like, I got to shoot it and point at that moving target. And the ball went in and I turned to TJ McConnell and I go, that was tough. Like that.

And I still think to this day, that was the greatest shot I ever made in my life. Okay, what would we put in to get this shot? I don't know. Who were you playing? Lakers. JJ Redick, four-point play, Lakers maybe? I had 21 points that game. Wait, I still don't understand what you're doing to compensate for the shot. So shoulder goes up. If it happened, my point is, if it happened, which it did, no, that's a different one. That's just a normal four-point play. It's not that hot.

Wait, here's the question. I see why they hate you. I see why they hate you. She was justified. I thought it was wrong until right now. Actually, while we're pulling this up, basketball players have crazy... Is that all basketball players that have recall like that? I've always heard LeBron do any play from any time in his career. What about Bill Russell, too? Bill Russell. A lot of players do. A lot of players do. What do you attribute that to? So...

someone... Can you do this with stories your wife tells you? When I first... I remember a lot of shit. Really? Yeah, I remember a lot of shit. Yeah, that's it right here. Let's go, let's go. Is it right here? Simmons passed it to you. Bang. Great shot. That's ridiculous. Wait a minute, hold on. But I don't see your shoulder coming up. Go back, go back, go back.

- I can get the zoom in. - Oh, look right there. It's up. It's up. - Oh, you're saying you're up here before you even bring your arm up. - Yep. Yep. - And then, oh wow. - I'm curious, was the team aware of this injury? - Oh, wow, it is. Look at it. - Activation, I do it all the time. - Oh, I see it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Look at it. Look at it. - Yeah, you can see the slant. - That's not how you should shoot a basketball. Yeah. - But like, did you hide it because? - I wouldn't hide it 'cause I shot 43% from three. - So it works.

So it helps you. It's kind of a rookie of the year situation. It's kind of a, yeah. The injury makes it better. Rookie of the year, bro. This is brilliant. So, and why didn't you try to do more catch and shoots? Because that was actually really good. It seems like you're really good at it. No, I did a lot of catch and shoots. I was a good catch and shoot player. It's fine to say that.

Yeah. The way you said it, though, was spot on. It's like he called you a honky. I was going to say the recall thing. So when I first started calling games. Like when you recall when I called you a cat. When I first started calling games, I remember I had a Warriors game and we were in the green room and we were talking about my recall. So Raymond, who's their head of PR, and Steve Kerr walk in.

And whoever, I think it was Ryan Rucco, but he was like, hey, Steve, do you have recall? He's like, oh yeah, I have recall. Yeah, I'm getting older now, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, apparently JJ has crazy recall. So Raymond's in the room. I've called 12 Warriors games since then. Every single time he has a question for me about a specific game. So I'm like 11 for 11. And he comes to me on Saturday night and he's like, what's the biggest lead your team has ever lost and to lose a game?

And I was like, I think it was the lockout year. And he's like, do you remember who, anything about it? The opponent, the thing? And I said, I can't. And it was the first time I didn't get to. Wow. But then once he said the game, I was like, I remember. Were you worried about lockout year? It was the lockout year. The Boston Celtics, each one more, came off the bench, had five threes. Avery Bradley, just complete. We were up like 24 and we lost. Yeah, I remember the game. So what do you attribute that to? Because it seems like a thing a lot of, maybe pro athletes, but NBA in particular have.

Is that something that helps you as a pro? I just don't know where it comes from. If I could turn my brain off, I would. It's not necessarily like... It's not a good thing. Yeah. It's not a good thing. I was in the green room today at first take and Kimberly Martin, who does NFL, I didn't even know I was doing it. And she was like...

what is going on in your brain? I've never, like, what is that face you're making? What is going on in your brain? You're staring at her feet. No, I was literally, I was looking out the window. I was looking at the fucking East river like this. And she's like, what's going on in your brain? And I,

I had had one of my friends that still plays in the NBA and said, I want to come stay with you this summer and work on some catch and shoot stuff. And I was literally going through the drills. Wait, what kind of, what kind of stuff? What did he want to work with you this summer? Like movement shooting, movement shooting. Not spot up shooting. I'll do that on the show. Okay, okay. I want you to know I was kidding and I was trying to jab you. But you hit a nerve. Confirming. Your brain is just like this. So like, you know, it's a good thing, but then it's like,

You're constantly being reminded of every... I'll have shit... I'll literally some days, I'll be like, man, that one shot. No. Game five against the Boston Celtics in 2018. If I make that shot, we probably win game five. We go back to Philly. Maybe we force a game seven. How open were you? What? How open were you? I was wide open. Yeah, T.J. McConnell drove baseline. I was on the left wing. They helped on him. We had a cut. Maybe... Side's been on the pass in defense, but...

And my shoulder did the thing. And my shoulder did the thing. And I was short. Damn. Yeah. But do you overthink sometimes? Like, because you're always on, constantly, like, calculating? Does that ever happen in-game? This is...

Occasionally, but no. I don't want to compare, but there's a similar comic thing. It's too fast. That's the thing I love. It happens on the golf course. It happens on the golf course for sure. It's a static sport. Basketball's freedom. It's dynamic. No, it's freedom from your brain. You need to be present every single second of the day because you're slow and white. So, you know...

You know what I mean? Like in high school, you could check out. You could think about all these different things. But no, no. Remember Coach Collins. Chris Collins came to a high school game. I committed to Duke at this point. Came to a game. And I had 28 points, 12 rebounds. And he called me after the game. We played Salem. And he called me after the game. And he's like,

He's like, bro, I was so disappointed in your performance tonight. There were so many possessions that you took off. So your point, yeah, in high school, I could go get 28 and 12. But the league is perfect for you because for, what is it, an hour a night, two hours a night, your brain actually shuts off. Yeah. I think people feel that way about like surfing, definitely paddle, boxing. As a comic, crowd work. I have a similar, my brain doesn't shut off. It's not always a good thing. I can't sleep a lot. My brain is just going. But,

Part of the reason I think I'm good at crowd work is my brain just gets to listen and react. I don't have any time to overthink anything. What do you say? What's a clever response? That's it. First take is like that for me. Yeah. Gotta stay in the moment. It's live. Yeah, it's live. You're just in the moment. I remember... Calling games is like that too. Oh, yeah. Calling games, for sure. Calling games is the hardest thing. Yeah. It's the hardest thing. Why? It's because even first take, you have the...

The topics ahead of time. You can prepare. I learned my first year, I was like, I got to be on every production call. So every time I'm on first take, I get on the production call at 7.30 in the morning, do the production call, then take my kids to school, come back home, get ready, go. So I know ahead of time exactly what we're going to talk about. Now, sometimes...

Mad Dog may say something, Stephen A may say something that you react to in real time, but you're prepared. A game, I don't know what's going to happen in a game. And I've got to talk about it in a way that's not repetitive or redundant. It's not like, okay, I know Jokic is going to get post-ups. Well, I can't just keep saying he's posting up. So you have to think like on the fly all the time about what's happening and how you want to say it.

Plus, I've worked a lot of three-person booths. So last year, this year, I worked a lot with RJ. Now I'm working with Doris and Mike. And that is a challenge.

It's more of a challenge? Versus a two-person booth. Really? Because probably there's less time to talk. You have to do everything quicker. Like, explaining things that could take... You have unlimited time here. The game is so fast now, too. The game is... Like, it's not the NFL. It's not baseball. Yeah. Where there's 15 seconds between a pitch. Or NFL, where you have two different replays after every single play. Real quick. What are they saying your responsibility is in the booth? To celebrate the game. It's about the game. So, but they're not saying that you have to do play-by-play. Mm-hmm.

That's Mike Breen, Hall of Famer. Exactly. So they're basically, you're doing color commentary. Color commentary. Right. So what does that exactly mean? Are you describing what that player is feeling in the moment, what play they should do, why they did that play?

Hopefully it's a mix of technical and conversation. Got it. Particularly in a three-person booth, you want to have chemistry with the people you work with. Yeah, when there's camaraderie, it's awesome. For sure. And then the other responsibility a lot of times is timeouts. Going to timeout, typically you get one or two replays. And then something called podbusters happen.

which are essentially within a quarter or at the end of a quarter. They may show like a two or three play highlight package of LeBron scoring in transition or whatever it may be. Porzingis spotting up from three, right? And you have to sort of cover that. But

The play-by-play, I mean, that's like a skill that you have to go to school for and practice. It's like I didn't practice to be a color analyst. No, no, totally. I'm just wondering what they say your responsibility is. Like what do the producers, when they hire you for it, say that you have to bring to the broadcast? My insight to basketball. Got it. Yeah. Got it. Yeah. Yeah. I remember my boss said to me, he was like, as much as you can share, share.

But you have to do it in a way, something called laying out. Yeah. You have to be able to lay out too, which means laying out means you shut the fuck up. So like Tony Romo at the end of the Super Bowl didn't lay out. He didn't let Jim Nance set the stage, right? Yeah. Apparently, I heard a few people talking about this. It's a game-winning play in the Super Bowl. The announcer makes one line and then you just let the crowd speak. Yes. The noise. And Tony Romo started talking. Even after a big moment. So that was the one piece of advice I got. So I never called a game.

I begged my first year at ESPN. I was like, can I please call a game? Can I please call a game? So they were like, fine, you can call Philly, New York. And I think it was New York, Miami or Philly, Miami. So my first two games were regular season games in March. And the only piece of advice they said was like, you just got to lay out sometimes. Don't over talk. Joel Embiid texted me after the first game. He's like, dude, you didn't speak in the first quarter. I'm curious if one of my favorite young up and coming players makes it to the league, like how would you pronounce his name?

It's a good thing that you don't announce football, huh? Yeah, but, you know, I'm just saying. You want another water? Did you see this guy? Did you see this story? I know. This poor guy, right? We're not going to see that name in any of your poems, are we? Yeah.

Okay. Have you ever had a player get mad for your commentary? Yeah. These are your friends. You're contemporaries. What do you mean by that? Like you say something and you're like, oh, he did this thing wrong. And someone hits you up and they're like, no, that's not what happened. I did it differently. You didn't see it properly. Not on a game. On some commentary, yeah. Yeah. And how do you handle that? I just talk to them like we're friends.

And then they understand? Well, no, so I try to understand them. Right. I try to understand them. Yeah, it's happened. It's happened a few times. I can think of two off the top of my head. For example, can you share? No. Private stuff. Ever been threatened? No, no, no. Ever been threatened on the court? Yeah. Where? KG.

Oh, KG came at me a few times. Wait, what'd he say? I don't remember exactly what he said. So in 09, I didn't play a lot at the time. And so Courtney Lee broke his face. Dwight Howard like hit him at teammates. Hit him with a double. He was a starter. So game six against Philly, closeout game in Philly. I start, play well. So we then play the defending champs, Boston Celtics. And Stan comes to me. He's like, you're going to chase Ray Allen for the next however many games.

He's like, you have no help responsibilities. Just chase Ray. What's that like? This is Ray. That's your guy. Hell. Okay. Okay. But fucking cool. It was the coolest thing ever. Yeah. Okay. So you're chasing him. So I'm chasing him. So anyways, KG was hurt that series. Yeah. So he's on the bench and, but he's still KG. You know what I mean? He's still animated talking. And it was like, every time I would go by their bench, he's got a comment, you know? And then I remember, uh,

One time we were playing him when he was back in Minnesota. This was like 2015-ish, whatever. I was with the Clippers and he tried me. You know what I mean? He tried to get me going, tried to get me to respond to something and I didn't. And then I hit a big shot.

And he told Sam Cassell after that game, he was like, yeah, I knew that white boy was going to hit something. I knew I had to try to get him out of the game. I mean, this KG, man. So the finals that year, you make it, you play the Lakers. It's Kobe. And I mean, it's disrespectful. He's probably thinking on some level, oh, I got to avoid the Celtics who beat me last year. KG was hurt. What's that whole situation like? You're playing the finals for the first time. You're playing Kobe. What is that like for you?

It was interesting. So I started seven straight playoff games. And then we played Cleveland in the conference championship. I didn't play in game one. I played nine minutes in the second quarter, had seven points. Did not play any of the other games. So go into the finals. Did not play. Why though? In game one, it's a blowout. I get it at the end.

And the Lakers filled in and take his starters off. So Kobe's still out there. So I'm guarding him at the end of this game. And I hit a three and I think I got like, I'm going to be not generous, but factual here. I think I got two stops against Kobe in the late in the fourth quarter. They're going to win the game two stops, but it was like, I battled them. You know what I mean? Felt good about it. So then I'm like, Oh, so then I played in game two. We lose, we go down to, Oh, I don't play in game three.

Game four, I play a lot. Game five, I don't play until the end of the game in the fourth quarter. So it's a very like up and down thing. I always tell people this. It wasn't like a highlight because we lost and it fucking hurt so bad. And it was the closest I ever got. But truthfully, like the high point of my career was getting to guard. I guarded Kobe Bryant in the NBA finals. There's like, you know, I have multiple pictures saved of like me and him.

There are pictures of him and I'm in the background. But it's like, that's something that, you know, my grandkids, for sure. Greatest player you've ever played against? You're going to put it there? I'm really curious. Um...

He's the greatest player I ever guarded. Like, I had to guard. I didn't have to guard LeBron. Right. I didn't necessarily have to guard Steph. Right? But those three guys. Yeah. And I'll put KD in there, too. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Those are the four. Those are the four. And did you feel like when you were going up against him, outside of natural gifts, extreme preparation, did you feel like he just knew what was happening on the floor at all points in time? Kobe? Yeah. I've told this story once before. So...

My senior year of college was the first year that they did a pool for USA basketball. They do this now all the time. They say there's 40 names or 25 names, whatever it is, that are being considered for these 12 roster spots. At the time, it was the 06, it was World Championships. So me and Adam Morrison get named as pool players. That first summer, I had a herniated disc at L5-S1, so I didn't do Summer League, I didn't do USA basketball, but I got to go out and watch. The next summer, because they didn't win, they had to qualify.

So this was like a 12 day training camp prior to qualifying. So I got to spend time around everybody. Two stories from that. Number one, first day I get there, I land at whatever noon Vegas time. I hit up coach Collins and coach Wojo who were helping coach K out. And I said, I need to get in the gym. So I get in the gym. Coach Dawkins comes, he looks haggard. Like he looks exhausted. I'm like, JD, what's, what's, what the fuck's going on?

He's like, Kobe, man, he had me in here at 6 a.m. He was in here for three hours. He was working on the counter to the counter to the counter. And he had to make 10 shots in a row. Like this was the type of dude. All those stories about Kobe being a psycho worker, they're all true. So that was cool. End of the first practice comes and Kobe is like, hey, do you want to shoot? And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'll shoot. And at the time I'm thinking he wants to shoot with me because he's being a good guy. And then we shoot.

like 15 minutes into it, I realize he's watching how I shoot. Watching how I'm catching the ball, watching my footwork. He's trying to pick something up. And I'm not saying like, oh, he's picking it up. But he was just always trying to learn. He was always trying to get better. Oh, I was thinking to defend you. I thought he was trying to demoralize you. Like you think you can shoot one. No, he was watching my form. I had a reputation from Duke. Like he was literally watching me.

to try and pick something up. And do you think that he caught anything? No, probably not. Probably not. I wasn't that good. I wasn't that good. My, one of my favorite parts of the, what is it? The redeem team documentary is when everybody's talking about, you know, Kobe told everybody, you know, we're up at six in the morning. Everybody's like, so we started getting up at six more. We're working out. And then it cuts to mellow. And he goes, I'll be honest. I ain't waking up at six in the morning. Ah,

I've told the story where they all go out. They all go out. They come back. They get back to the hotel. Kobe's like, they're back at 6 a.m. He's at the breakfast table with ice on his knees because he just got done working out. Yeah. This fucking psycho shit. Are there any people that can excel in the NBA at that level without...

an extreme work ethic no you just can't do it no right no so like explain what braun and i were braun and i were talking about this on episode one of our show mind the game also if you haven't watched the game no no let me literally is because if you haven't watched it it is the best podcast out right now if you are a casual fan of basketball you will be obsessed and if you're obsessed with basketball forget this is everything you want they're not trying to water down the game

There are two basketball nerds geeking out over basketball and don't give a flying fuck if you understand it or not. And I actually like what you did in the beginning where you explained a few of the plays. I thought that was really important. And then bringing it out during it was very helpful. You get the graphics. I saw a social clip and it didn't have it, the little clip I saw. You know what's funny? It was the only thing we couldn't find something for after the fact.

we found it on WNBA and we found it in college basketball. Because that coverage of the baseline out of bounds play, we couldn't find it in the NBA. It's interesting. And now like people have posted shit on like, this was the thunder in 2019. Motherfucker, I couldn't find that clip. But I remember seeing that clip before I watched the episode going, oh, it'd be so nice if they had like graphics or something so we would understand. And I remember, and then the beginning of the episode, you're explaining these few plays. Anyway, it's,

Fucking awesome. I'm sure all of you already watch it. If not, go watch it. And they're continuing to release episodes. So you were sick. Anyways, the only reason it popped in my brain is because we put the social clip out today where he talks about this. Like the idea of not, of like being elite in the NBA and not being,

working to an extreme level right it's impossible and the thing he says which i laughed at and i think it's hilarious is he said what does discipline mean discipline means you sacrifice loved ones yeah that was crazy and but and it's like it's actually yeah i thought what you said was great too which is like you're like i've said to my wife and family this is a selfish endeavor i had so much guilt over that and and then my wife my wife met she like

I'm traveling all season. Yeah. I'm traveling all season, right? We have 41 road games, playoffs. I'm locked in.

There was a time I had to guard James Harden a lot when I played for the Clippers and he was on the Rockets. And we had a Sunday ABC game and her family was in town, her parents and her aunt. And we went to this little Mexican place in Manhattan Beach and I was fucking zoned out. Of course. Kimberly Martin in the green room today. I was zoned out thinking about what am I doing with my footwork when James goes to this move, right? I'm thinking about this shit.

We get home. Chelsea's like, where the fuck were you at dinner? And I was like, I'm literally thinking about guarding James Harden tomorrow. I'm sorry. I couldn't be there. So not only when I was in season, when I wasn't like on the road, I wasn't there all the time. Yeah. Right. And so I had this tremendous sense of guilt. And I found this quote about, uh,

Striving for greatness is the stupidest thing, but it wasn't the quote. But it's like, that is a selfish pursuit. And I had to accept it and live with it. Yeah. And the people that love you also have to accept it. Yeah, and Chelsea has. Thank God. Thank God. But it's a good perspective to have because it's very easy to like...

flip it and frame it as, hey, I'm a provider and that's all I do. And it's like, no, no, no, we do this for ourselves too. Yeah. And the people that love us understand that it feeds our souls as well. And we also happen to provide a pretty awesome life and that's great. People benefit. But once you got that 23 million from the 76ers, you could have taken off a little bit, but you're like, fuck it, send me to Dallas. This is my problem in life. Yeah. It's a good thing and a bad thing. Okay. So-

I was very routine oriented and it wasn't just the routine of like, oh, this is how I'm gonna put my socks on. I meant the work. The work was very routine. And so what happened throughout my career is this is my baseline level of work. And once it became manageable,

this is my baseline level of work and once it became manageable this is my baseline and the same fucking thing is happening right now i can see it in media three podcasts it's like like last year i added a second show on monday right i started calling games full time it was a little bit of a trip and then i got to the point i was like okay i figured out how to manage this and also it's like all right let's do a lebron show yeah yeah and it's it's

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Oh, yeah. I want to tell you this while we're on air. I'm not being hyperbolic. I think you are truly changing the way basketball is analyzed. I think a lot of it before was guys kind of like me who are not really athletic, just saying things. And then to have a basketball player who played at a high level wasn't just a catch and shoot guy, but then talking about like unapologetically, here is what my opinions are at the highest level.

I think it sets a precedent now for what this starts to become. Basketball analysis. Maybe sports analysis. And I'm not being hyperbolic. I really think you are changing the trajectory of what a sports analyst is. That's really interesting because before, maybe the basketball guys weren't skilled at the analysis part and then just speaking on camera part. The communication part. Yeah, the communication part is hard. It's an art also, right? And people are doing that, you know, dedicating their whole lives to do it. But now you have an expectation where not only...

should you be able to communicate effectively, you better have also played the game. Yeah. I want to respond to what you just said, and I appreciate that. And it's like, truly, I mean this, it means something to me to hear you say that. It doesn't mean a lot, it just means something. No, no, it does. It does. Because...

Because you recognize, I think, what is important to me. I want to be clear on this, though. I don't want to change anything. I want to fill a void. Because there are always going to be people that want to be entertained in a certain way. Sports is an escape. Fandom is an escape. And that's important. Yeah.

How am I taxed as an NBA player? I'm taxed as an entertainer. I know what I'm providing. Fandom is part of people's identity. It's an escape. And in some ways, sports media is that too. So I'm not trying to change anything. I'm trying to fill a void for what I see. When you first came on the air, I remember thinking, oh, this has been missing. And now I'm looking at you and like, oh, I don't know. It's not a Pandora's Boxing only parallel. But now that we've seen this,

Maybe there's another way to add to the ancillary coverage of sports. Yes. And the ancillary way we talk about sports. It kind of feels like when Tony Romo started announcing, and he started breaking down the game a little bit more, and less just trying to entertain, and that's what I feel. And he was guessing plays, and it was really exciting to watch, because he'd be right. And the difference here is, when you hear guys who comment on sports, like broadcasting, they will say Romo seems to have gotten...

for lack of a better word, I don't think anybody's ever going to say that about you. It's constant prep. It's constant knowing the game in and out and just like obsession. How do NBA players go broke? They don't anymore. Is that right? Why is that? Shocked, bro. I'd be shocked. Tell me, tell me, tell me, tell me. All right. So I'll tell you how it happens. Yeah. Happened more.

So I don't know what the average, but during my career, the average NBA career was like four and a half years, roughly. Okay. So if you play four and a half years, that means you're not getting to a real second contract. You're likely making 750, 1.2, 1.5. Maybe you get an exception 2.9. Okay. So you've made $8 million over four and a half years. Let's call it. You've made $10 million over five years.

All right, you've got $5 million to spend. You're in the NBA, you're gonna get a nice car, you're probably gonna buy a nice house, but you're gonna take care of your parents. Before you spend another dollar, you're like, you gotta pay your agent. Right, so you're down. How is that supposed to last you the rest of your life? There were guys that I played with that I felt at the time

Oh, you played 10 years and you made $35 million. All right, do the math on that. Do the math on that. Add in the spending. Add in the spending. That's how it happens. Like my financial advisor, he told me that from day one. I'm like, it's all about spending. It's not all about the intake. It's the outtake too. It's what you go spend money on, right?

Now, the reason I say it's just not going to happen as much now is have you fucking seen these contracts? Yeah, they're making big money. Yeah. Even the rookies? What's a rookie contract? They changed the rookie scale. Okay. They changed the rookie scale. So like my rookie contract was four years, 8.9, which was, I mean, I was broke. We did not have money. That was a shitload of money, right? Very grateful for every dollar I made. The 11th pick now...

I don't know the exact number. He's probably making 20. Okay. So even with your- For reference, most of my career, the mid-level exception was around $5 million a year. And now- Which was like, you're a rotation player. Yeah, yeah. What is it now? The average- It's 12 and a half. So a max contract, think about coming out of the lockout. Coming out of the lockout, there were a few guys that were on their rookie deals that went and signed a max contract, right? And it was like four years, 58. Yeah.

Vince Carter and Chauncey Billups when you're signed max contracts, four years, 64. Jalen Brown just signed a max contract, five years, $304 million. Jeez. There's a difference. Wow. Okay. So even those guys that are just getting that rookie deal are probably making life-changing money. Zion Williamson, number one pick. He made, he's going to make four, he made $44 million on his rookie deal. Four years. And if you get to that second contract, forget it. Yeah. But you, it was your third or your fourth that were you actually really made money?

I did, were you pocket watching here? Yeah. Son, I got the notes. I got the notes because I know about the big- The Philly deal, yeah. The Philly deal was- So I did a three-year deal with Chicago that was good money. I did a four-year deal with LA that was good money. Those were both around like six or seven a year. Yeah. And then Philly. And then I did another one-year deal with Philly. And then I did a two-year deal with New Orleans. What'd you get for yourself when you got that Philly deal? Because I know that that's a nice, real special thing. You had to get yourself something nice. It's interesting.

That was 2017. Yeah.

for like five years, I was obsessed with vintage watches. Obsessed. Okay, okay. Like I'm an obsessive deep diver person. Yeah, yeah. So I like, I collected whatever. At one point I was like, am I a dealer? Am I a watch dealer? Okay, what'd you get yourself? So I'll tell you. So 2017, my parents were fucking stressed to the nines. They'd been retired for a few years, but like not enjoying it. So I...

I called them up to New York. I'm one of five. All the siblings come in. They were basically like, pick a city where you have grandkids. So you can live in New York, you can live in Denver, you can live in Raleigh. But you got to pick a city. I'm going to buy you a house.

And I'm going to, you know. Take care of it. Yeah. I'm going to take care of you. Take care of it. So that's essentially what I did with, not all the money. Man, I thought you were going to tell us a watch story. Did you sell the watches to get to it? I didn't have a car when I moved to New York. Yeah. Because I had like a deal where I had a free Tahoe. So I had this Tahoe.

And I moved to New York. I'm like, I have a Tahoe in New York. So I gave it back to the dealership in LA. And I get to New York and I'm like, what's the cheapest nice car I can lease? This was after I signed my deal. I've got to get a Range Rover Sport. So I'm driving that to Gainesville River. You're driving a Philly. I forgot you lived in New York. The valet guys at the arena, Ben's pulling up in his shit. I think you're driving your wife's car. But everybody's got like nice cars.

And I remember them saying to me, like, why don't you have a nice car? It's a Range Rover Ford. It's a nice car, man. How did you not let the money affect your desire to be great? Like, have you seen that with guys where they make that first check and they go, let me kind of, let me coast a little bit. I found a great quote at one point in my life.

You've it's it's so corny. I'm gonna say it anyways. You've never arrived. You're always becoming right. Yeah idea I remember there were guys so my McDonald's all-american game was in Madison Square Garden Okay, first time I ever played on national television, right? I remember being there and getting the sense like everybody all anybody was talking about like I'm going to league I'm going to leave I'm going to leave that was not my mindset. My mindset was like I want to destroy these motherfuckers this week and

And then I got the Capitol Classic next week in D.C. I want to destroy them. I want to get ready for Duke. There was never like this sense of I've made it. Even like late Mike, there was a paranoia. You know what I mean? I'm sure you feel that. A paranoia about what? You guys don't feel that? No, no, we might. We might. Just explain what you're saying. A paranoia that somebody's going to take your shit. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That everything you work for isn't really going to work out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't want to call it imposter syndrome, but there's a, like I think people that are just like,

I want to be great at this thing. I guess what? There's a lot of people that want to be great at basketball. There's a lot of people. Young guys would come in every year. There's 30 first round picks. There's 30 second round picks. There's guys coming over from overseas. You're like, all right, my job. Everybody wants my job. I'm going to have to do everything I can to keep it. It wasn't a problem.

I wanted to make money, don't get me wrong. Fuck. Is it hard to- I wanted this suit. But is it hard to separate that? Like you have to be on a team, you have to congeal, you have to believe in these guys, they have to fight for you, they have to support you. But at the same time, their ability to provide for their families could be affected by you. And your ability to provide for your family could be affected by them. They're trying to come for your spot.

Can you ever really like love one another and really get on the same page? There's a, there's a, that's always underlying in professional sports. I think particularly in, I really believe this, particularly in basketball, you know, baseball, you bat every nine times. It's, it's, you play a position, you're specialized. You don't know when a guy's going to hit a grounder to the shortstop, right? Pitchers, they pitch every five days.

Football, same sort of deal. I'm sure there's internal competition for a position. But again, there's a job that the left tackle has to do. There's a job that the tight end has to do. In basketball, it's like everybody has a job for sure, but it requires a lot. Soccer's a similar thing. It requires a lot. And typically, the people that score the most get the most, right? There's a finite amount of resources. So it's always underlying. But I never felt like...

at least the locker rooms I was in, there was this competition to like, if, if, if I get this, you don't get this. I never felt that. Really? There was never anybody coming for your spot when you're starting with the Clippers. You never felt, well, I guess Jamal would be the one coming in, but like there was never at any team where you were starting to get more minutes and you were taking them from somebody. My first year in Philly, we made the conference finals. I was the second leading scorer on the team. And we, um,

our five-man starting lineup had the best... It was the best five-man starting lineup in the entire NBA that year. In terms of net rating per 100 possessions or whatever. And...

They come to me my second year and they said, we want to start Markel Foltz and have you come off the bench. And I said, okay, that's fine. No. No, because I... Because you just made 23 million. No. No, it wasn't that at all. It was like, I remember Brett Brown, he got like a six minute recording from Manu Ginobili talking about, Manu was talking, it was to me. Manu was talking about

You know, these emotional experience of pop telling me he was going to come off the bench and not start. And I, we got done with the recording. I was like, I love Manu. He was one of my favorite players ever. I was like, Brett, you didn't have to do that. I literally don't care. That's kind of nice. Because I knew, no, because I knew like I was going to, I was going to play 30 minutes a game. I was going to, I was going to get two man action with Joel. I was going to be on the break with Ben Simmons doing catch and shoot threes. Like it was like, I knew all of a sudden was going to happen. Why do I, why do I, I don't care about fucking starting.

It was important at one point in my life to be like, I'm a starter in the NBA. Once that happened, I didn't care. Okay, so once you checked that off, it wasn't there. Okay, Coach K. Oh, yeah. Exceptional, my understanding is exceptional leader.

That's what I've been told by people. Maybe not the X's and O's or offensive genius like Mike D'Antoni, but in terms of his ability to get people on the same page and lead, exceptional. Was that your experience with him? Yes. Okay. And what makes him so exceptional? I'll say three things about Coach. Number one, my dad is like my hero.

Coach is the next guy. And then it's like everybody else. And I've been around some fucking phenomenal people and had some great mentors and some great coaches. But those two guys, they're just they're special. Second thing is I never saw him have a bad day.

Did he make mistakes? Sure, he made mistakes like a substitution or a game plan. Like he made mistakes, but I never, he put every single thing into every day. Wright Thompson wrote this article on him during his last season. It's this notion like coach would light himself on fire. And we all saw that. We all saw that. We get back from Blacksburg, Virginia after a loss and we have a two hour meeting at 3 a.m. in the morning and come to practice the next day.

Coach was in here at 6 a.m. watching film. He went home, showered, said hi to Mickey, said hi to his dogs, came back. He was fully invested at all times. It was an incredible lesson to learn when you're 19 years old, what that looks like. And I got to see it. The other thing I would say is when people talk about him, the good qualities, the leadership qualities, the communication, the motivation qualities, they're all true and then some.

They're all true. And how would he motivate you? Did he lock in specifically to a part of your personality and coach you in a unique way? There were certain guys that required a little nudging. I was not one of those guys, but I still got tested a lot. And sometimes it was just like a word test.

You're being... Catch and shooty. No, you're being, yeah, you're being this. A bitch? Yeah, like that sort of thing. Oh, really? He would use curse words? No, I mean, not like, I'm not using that word, but like the implication that, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or something like that. It was like that, or like I remember one time it was, you're being a brat.

You're a fraud. You're an entitled prick. Like it was stuff like that. So he would play into what he thought maybe your insecurities were. And then- Some of that came from Coach Collins too, but I, you know, they obviously talked. So it's like, yeah, it was just like that stuff. You know, the worst thing that any coach has ever said to me was came from Coach K. And it was after my sophomore year, really struggled that year, wanted to quit. That was like the height of like, everybody hates me. Yeah, everybody hates me.

Tried to quit in December. My sisters talked me out of it. Really struggled second semester. I played well for most of the season, but I really struggled. Started taking antidepressants, started seeing a therapist. And I was a fucking knucklehead. I was out. I was like living the frat life and trying to play Duke basketball. And like they knew that this was happening. So the season ends.

So for four straight Saturdays, he made me come in at 8 a.m. to meet with him. And in one of those meetings, we lost to UConn in the final four that year. And in one of those meetings, he said to me, we didn't win a national championship because you weren't worthy of being a champion. And that fucking crushed me. And it changed my life also. How? No coach could ever say that about me again. In that you were always prepared, always dedicated. Yeah, great teammate, all that stuff.

Now, does Coach K know—this is what I'm assuming—he knows that you have the constitution to handle criticism like that? And that that is a motivator? Where some people, that might kind of crumble them. I think that's one of his gifts. I think that's one of his gifts. As to what measure of character? No, no. Just, like, knowing what is required with each player. I—

coach my uh my kid's travel team and it's it's some of that is like i can talk to this kid this way i can coach kid this it's not just like verbal confrontation it's how you coach a kid trying to figure out how they're motivated uh what their triggers are like getting them to get by and like all that stuff he just he has a gift with figuring that out for each individual guy that was that was part of his gift i think well would he like

Would he set aside time to figure out each one of you? So there would be non-basketball activities. You guys were just meeting in the office. Like what? Two meetings that stand out. As soon as I got on campus, I just turned 18 years old and he met with every freshman. We were doing summer school before our freshman year. And he had me in there and he said, what do you hope to accomplish at Duke? That's the framework. So he holds onto that.

Going into my second year, we had the same sort of meeting. What do you want to do this year? And I had written down these goals. I tell him the goals and he goes, and what exactly have you done this summer to accomplish that? Like, I think going back, we're going to go full circle here. Going back to high school, I always practiced and I always worked. I didn't miss games. Like, I was always in it. Going back to high school, because it was easier, there was this

It was wrong to think this way, but it's the truth. In high school, it's like, well, I'm gonna grow. I'm gonna get stronger. I'm gonna get a new level of testosterone and I'm gonna be better than I was last year. And I'm gonna be better than I was the year before. And then you get to your senior year, like, okay, I'm really good. I'm better than I was as a freshman. And the older you get, it just doesn't work that way. You step up a level of competition. And it's like, so I had a good freshman year and...

And my mindset was like, I did what they asked me to do, but I didn't do extra. I didn't go above and beyond. Here's a conditioning. Okay, I'll do the conditioning workout, but I didn't try to win the conditioning workout. That's the difference. And so once I, and it was really between my sophomore and junior year, once I got that in my brain of like, what are you willing to do that no one else is willing to do? Okay, now I can like actually write down some things on a piece of paper and try to go accomplish that. What'd you write down that year? I never wrote down another goal in my life.

Why? Why would I? I can't control the goals. I really believe that. I learned I can control what I can control, and that is the work. That is my approach. That is my preparation. I can control how I interact with people. I had a couple blowups in the NBA. I joke all the time with people. I'm like, NBA is so...

competitive and so high stress, everybody should be allowed two blowups a year. What were your blowups? So like, I just remember like a couple of them. There was one that I had in Milwaukee and one that I had in my last year with the Clippers. And both were with coaches, honestly. I don't think I ever had a blowup with a teammate. I certainly like

Certain teammates, we would be direct with each other, but it was never like a blow up. To coach in Milwaukee, I was guarding Ben Gordon and they were running a dribble handoff on one side

And the big would dribble handoff with him and he turned the corner and it's Ben Gordon. I can't go underneath the dribble handoff because he's got insane shooter. So I would chase over the top and obviously I'm chasing. So I'm behind him now. The big wasn't providing help and he scored a couple of times on floaters. So we go to a timeout and the big was Josh McRoberts, who I played with the Duke insane passer.

So they're like, top lock him, which means basically get on the high side of him, deny him from coming off the dribble handoff. And I said to him, but he's just going to backdoor and get a layup. Why would I play the defense that way? And that led to one thing to another, and I blew up, and I regret that. I do regret that. And then Brennan O'Connor, who is one of my favorite coaches I've ever had, we tried to implement a defensive coverage against the Pistons mid-game that we'd never practiced before. Yeah.

We went over it in film afterwards. It didn't work in the game. It's actually a good concept. We just never practiced it. And so I was kind of like, when you're unsure in the NBA on coverage, you're going to get fucked. Like the split second you hesitate, you're done. So we talked about it in the film session the next day. And I like pushed back a little bit on the coverage. And one thing led to another.

And then he said to me, just shut the fuck up and do your job. Whoa. And that was very hurtful to me because I'm like, that's all I do is my job. And I just, I went ballistic. I blacked out. I don't know what I said. And I went and sat on the bus while everybody else shot around for 30 minutes. No way. Yeah. And have you spoken to the coaches since?

Well, Jim, I never really came across again. I would always be friendly with him. That was Jim Blaine, not the coach from Chicago, but Jim, who was the older guy. He ended up going to Cleveland with T. Lou. It was fine. Things happen. It's all good. Brennan O'Connor, every time I see him, we joke about it. About it? Oh, yeah. He calls me Bubz because I called everybody Bubz because of white chocolate.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, Jason Williams is the man, dude. Who's the best player leader that you played with? Someone in the locker room congealed the whole group or you were like, I'll fucking go through a brick wall for this guy? So CP was a great leader. Really? He had a very direct style of leadership. I thought everybody hates him. No, he had a very direct style of leadership. Okay. And so...

That was... That's a nice miss. He does have that rep. Yeah, yeah. That people don't like playing with him and hate it. Honestly, probably the two best guys, and they were very influential for me for how they led...

was early in my career, I had Rashard Lewis and I had Jameer Nelson. And those guys for me were like the best. And what did they do that inspired you? Jameer was a connector. So Jameer was big on like team dinners. He would have everybody to Philly for a week. He would set up paintball. He would set up a Phillies game. We did batting practice with the Phillies. Like he was just like a connector. So it was that idea of like,

We're on a team. Let's be friends. It's a very simple thing. And we all had that probably in high school. But you don't necessarily have that in the NBA and professional sports. So he was like a connector. Rashard, it's funny because I talked with Ray about this on the podcast. But Rashard learned how to work from Ray. I learned how to work from Rashard.

I'll never forget like Rashard Lewis, first day he shows up after he signs at the time the biggest contract in the NBA. 100 million, seven years. Six years, 123 million. Keep pocket watching. Yeah. We got it. It's the only thing we can do. No, but he, I'll never forget. Again, I'd been around the league one year and he had that mentality that I talked about where it's like, it's not like I didn't arrive. I didn't make it.

I still got to do the work. And I'm watching him work out and he's like hour and a half, full lather, working on every single part of his game, comes back the next day, does it again. And that's how he was the whole time I was his teammate. It was like a consistency to him. And I think the best leaders are consistent. Consistent, yeah. The same guy every day. Best compliment I ever got as an NBA player. And I really mean this. Philly, my second year there, Philly wrote an article about, I don't remember the angle of the article, but there was a quote in there from Jimmy saying,

And he was like, I love being JJ's teammate because he's the same guy every day.

And I was like, fuck. That's dope. And in an incredibly chaotic environment like the NBA, having that consistency is probably amazing. You don't know if you're getting traded. You don't know if you're getting minutes. You don't know if the defense are throwing at you. But there's a guy every single day that's going to show up and get to work. And that's probably helpful for a coach, too. Jimmy Butler, what makes him different? He was not a highly drafted player. Second round, I want to say. And now he's... What makes him different? Watching, his mentality seems different than everyone else's. He...

He has a constant chip on his shoulder and he's incredibly intelligent and he has a real like belief in self. He has a real belief in self. Yeah. It's like unbreakable. Yeah. It's unbreakable. Yeah. You mentioned you regret blowing up on those two coaches. Do you regret the low blow up you had with Doc? I regret the tone. Not anything you said? No. I mean...

What I said is what I believe. There's not an agenda with that. My job is to comment on the NBA. And that's one of the biggest stories in the entire NBA ecosystem this year. I was just making a point. It's like, what had happened since he got the job? Even that morning, I'm driving into work and there was something in there about him

you know, basically taking credit for the James Harden trade. And it was like, I just was like, hmm, interesting. And then they played the sound and I was like, hmm. And then Shannon didn't say anything. Stephen A didn't say anything. I was like, hmm.

I regret the tone. You filled the void. The tone seemed too personal and I regret that. Okay. And there was no person. And Doc, I assume, would get it. He was a commentator as well. You have to have something to say. Yeah, I've talked to him since. Okay, yeah. It's all good. How do you feel about... Oh, sorry. Well, when do we see you coaching? I know that we got to wrap this up, but when do we see you coaching? Is that of any interest to you? It is of interest. I'm not putting any timeframe on it.

But that is something that, given the opportunity, it will happen. The one thing I'll say, like, so when I retired, it was very difficult. I think for any athlete, you can have a secure sense of self and a secure ego and a secure identity. It's inevitable that

What you do becomes part of that identity. And so letting go of that, I'm not being hyperbolic here. It is a fucking death. It is a death. It's very hard for me to let go of that. And my therapist that I talk to now, like he was very helpful in get, I knew I wanted to retire saying the words, I'm retiring, I'm done. That was, I couldn't do it on my own. And so we talked about it.

It was a very helpful session. I was like, okay, I'm ready. So I did it. Very next session, he's like, all right, let's look forward. By looking forward, we need to talk about what are the things you loved about playing that you hope to get in the next phase? And it was competition, performance anxiety, and collaboration, being on a team, right? Yeah.

Fast forward a year and I realized there was a fourth piece that I loved and it was particularly like fulfilling at the end of my career in Philly, in New Orleans, and that's leadership. And so when I think about coaching, it's like filling all of those things. And so I'm not, it's like coaching to me is about timing and it's about situation.

I love what I'm fucking doing right now. I'm good. I'm good. It's going to be hard to pull you out of it. Yeah. But the right opportunity, maybe. I'm going down the rabbit hole right now in this thing. So it's like, I can't be pulled out right now. Yeah. Okay. Just tell me real quick why retirement was so tough and the immediate sensation after you announced it. Why it was so tough? Because I...

I just genuinely loved it. It's like... Like, did you stop? My understanding is that you're still doing drills and you're still working out. You're still getting shots up. No. My understanding is that you may or may not have a key to a gym out east and you get some shots up. No, I'm with my kids. I'm with my kids. That's my understanding is that you got guys rebounding for you out east and then you're getting shots up. I swear, this is what I've heard. It's not true. That's not true.

It's not true. It's not true. Okay. The most shots I've ever taken at one time in retirement was like three weeks ago over All-Star break. I took my kids to Disney World for the first time. And the hotel had like a really nice outdoor court. And so that's all they wanted to do. Once we got back at like 12, 31 o'clock, the rest of the afternoon, they would just play. We're up in New York. It's freezing. It's nice out there. So they're just like, I want to be outside. I want to play basketball. So I'm like, great. So the first day,

They were on one side of the court because they didn't want to do drills. So I was just like, I'm going to grab a ball. And I started shooting and I probably took 50 shots. I worked my way out to like the NBA line of the NBA line. So just inside half court. And it was like, but I was like shooting jumpers. You know what I mean? And then I woke up the next day and I was like,

Yeah, yeah. I'm so sore. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I probably took like 50 shots by myself. Like that was it. Wait, sorry, you said you wanna coach. What player would you most like to coach in today's NBA? Wow. Great question. Wow. I'm hoping. I'm gonna actually, you know what, I'm gonna go with an easy one for me. Yeah. And hopefully this is non-controversial, but he was my teammate.

And he's also one of the best players in the world. And to coach in the NBA, you need one of the best players in the world. It's Luka. I'm from Dallas. That's why I was hoping you'd say Luka. And you didn't actually really play for us, but you know. I didn't. I didn't. I had a fucking partial tear in my Achilles. What do you want me to do? I was saying we could have used you. That's all. So does it heal? You just had it heal naturally? No, it's still there. So basically, I have something called Haglunds in my right heel.

which is an overgrown heel bone. So my heel bone looks like a golf ball. And so just through wear and tear playing for so long, the bone started pressing into the Achilles insertion. So when I went down...

to New Orleans that year. It had been bothering me all fall. They did like full tendon scans, knees, ankles, all that stuff. And the guy was like, you have a partial tear in your Achilles. And so I tried to rehab and I tried to play through it. I did PRP in New York over All-Star break. That's right before I got traded to Dallas, which is why I didn't join the team for like a week because I was still rehabbing here. And the PRP didn't help. And that was part of retirement too. Honestly, they were like,

The surgery is not the same as a full Achilles repair, but it is like four to six months. They literally shave your heel bone down. Wow. And then my bursa sac has inflammation. So they clean up the bursa sac and then repair the shredded part of the Achilles. But the Achilles part that's torn. That's part of the reason I don't play pickup though. Oh, really? I'm terrified to tear my Achilles or my calf. That's what I was about to say. So you can't even play paddle with this. Oh, I'm giving you buckets, bro. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Half court, one-on-one. No, I'm not going to do this to you. I've already taken out one guy's ankle. You know what I mean? Every guy from Duke with a busted foot, you know, comes across me and it's bad news. Yeah.

I mean, disrespect. Guys, I have other work to do. How did the pod with LeBron come to fruition? Yeah. And is it intimidating to sit across from one of the greats ever and talk the game or do you feel completely comfortable? Greats ever in anything. Yeah. It's not, it's not intimidating. I've known Bron now like 25, 24, 25 years. Wow. We met when we were like 15 or 16 at USA basketball camp. Yeah.

It's funny because I've never hung out with LeBron. He's not my boy. Oh, I thought you guys were friends and that's how the pod came about. No, no, no. We've always had a mutual respect, great interactions. I'm not going on vacation with his family. I'm not going to his house for dinner. Oh, you don't have a dap with him? No. There's always been a mutual level of respect as players. I mean, like... And so we...

We saw each other in December with the folks on his side and just had a conversation, and that kind of just got the ball rolling. So he picked you or you picked him? There's no good answer to that. Really? Seems like there's a great answer. Okay, so this thing comes together. The first episode, we've seen the first episode, which is actually half of what has been filmed. So there's another episode coming out.

The first episode, do you know you have a hit? Like when 15, 20 minutes into the conversation, are you going, oh, this is the most fun and this is going to be crazy? Yeah. Okay, immediately. Yeah, immediately. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Wow. And by the way, the second episode, so we recorded, the plan is to sort of record two episodes at a time. Yeah. Yeah.

The second part of the conversation was the part where you're in the room and you're floating because it's so pure. You know what I mean? Yeah. And it's funny, Jason Gallagher, who's our head of production and has been with us since day one on The Old Man and the Three, since we started this company, he's listened to fucking, I don't even know now, 220 episodes of The Old Man and the Three, plus all the shit we do for DraftKings. He's been in every conversation.

And he texts me afterwards and he's like, dude, he's like, I was floating today. That's the best shit you've ever recorded. And I'm like, yeah. So by the time this is out, episode two will most likely be out. And you listen on all listening platforms, but...

I would watch the YouTube video. I think it's the most instructive. I think you need to see the graphics to understand what you guys are talking about. And I like how you're not watering it down. Yeah. I love that. Like raise the level of intellect of the audience. Yeah. Is there anything that surprised you hanging with him? Like you guys hadn't hung out a ton before, but now you guys are face to face talking about the game. Is there anything that surprised you about the way I had the dinner? Is there anything the way he dissects the game that surprised you?

No, nothing surprised me. I think what is interesting is, you know, we typically have seen LeBron in a press conference, right, when he's talking. And to get him in that setting, it's just like...

He's awesome at it. Yeah. He's awesome at it. I think you're both excellent. And yeah, you guys don't have to explain yourself. When you talk to us about basketball, you have to. It's the same thing if we're going to talk like comedy to anybody. We have to kind of dumb down what we're saying. You're talking to someone who knows exactly what you're talking about, probably specific plays. You can reference a play of his from some playoff game that you are watching and he knows the exact play. There's way less fluff.

And it's really, I think you're going to see a lot more of this

in not just basketball, but all avenues. Changing trajectory. Yeah. By the way, there's nothing wrong with the sugar. I want to be like, I was talking about it earlier. There's nothing wrong with the sugar. There's nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with that. I'm not against the sugar. I like sugar too. I'm on Twitter. Like, I like the sugar. Sugar's fun sometimes. But this is sugar for people who love basketball. Sometimes too much sugar becomes toxic. Right. Well said. Yeah. What are we talking about now?

Just like talking about commentators that are super entertaining. Guys who are sports analysts, like I'm a sports analyst where you're just kind of watching and just saying things. But that's awesome too. It's entertaining. It's so fun. You look at a guy. It's amazing. I work with Stephen A. I was about to say, he's incredible. He's amazing. And you want that. I want that. Sometimes I just want to hear crazy hot takes. They might be true. They might not be true. Who gives a fuck? I enjoy that as well. But.

But there is a time and place when you see people who are obsessed with a thing. It doesn't have to be basketball. It can be two nerds talking about robots. But they're obsessed with the thing, and they're just talking to each other about that thing, and they don't care who's listening, and that's what it feels like. It doesn't feel like you guys care who's listening. And because of that, I want to listen. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, I don't know exactly what you're saying. Are you going to try to bait him into the goat talk about himself? No.

Literally in the setup, he's like, we're not talking about who the greatest is. Episode three, it's top five. There's an element of what has become not only the take industry, but the second take industry. Everybody's chasing? No, no, no. Meaning like...

- The reaction to the take. - Oh, it's all-- - That's like, and then there's the reaction to the reaction. - Bro, that's all YouTube is becoming. - Like I don't want this to be reactionary. I certainly will react to what's happening on the basketball court. - Yeah. - But it's not-- - Your phone flashed. - Sorry, it's not reactionary. - It will be reacted to. - Yeah. - But you wanna create the source.

The source material is always better to create than reacting to the thing or reacting to the reaction. Just like basketball. Yeah. Like outside of my kids and my wife, it's the thing I love the most. Go watch. Go watch. Everybody go now watch. Guys, JJ Redick. Amazing. Thank you, my boy.