Billionaire Who Ages Backwards & Lets AI Control His Life | Bryan Johnson
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Do humans have to die? This is the first moment where we can say death is a maybe. Brian Johnson is determined to live forever or die trying. Which he believes may happen in our lifetime. Everything we understand about reality may be called into question. The tech genius is worth 800 million dollars and has pledged almost every cent of it to uncovering the secret to eternal youth. If you had an algorithm that could give you the

best physical, emotional, and spiritual health of your life. Would you say yes to it? And so we looked through all the scientific evidence, and we put all the science into me, and then I became the most measured person in human history. What's your relationship with God? This is such a delicious conversation because I remember in Mormonism... Delicious is great, right? What's up, everybody? Welcome to Flagrant, and today we are joined by a 46-year-old man.

With an 18-year-old cock. Yeah. And if that doesn't get you interested, I do not know what will. He has spent millions of his own dollars to never die. Give it up for Brian Johnson. Okay, first question. And we're going to get to the cock. We're going to get to all these different things. But do humans have to die? For the first time in human history, it's a question. It's a maybe.

This is the thing. This is the most significant revolution in 200,000 years of being homo sapiens. Okay. Death has always been inevitable, and that leads to all the solutions we've had about death. We say live fast, die young. We create religions. We create stories about death, how it renews and how it's great. But this is the first moment after 4.5 billion years where we can say death is a maybe. And why do you feel it's a maybe? Yeah.

If you look at the speed of progress of artificial intelligence and the gains in medical technologies, it's possible that we will be able to arrest aging. Can you explain how AI would help? So if you take... All right, so we... Humans are the most intelligent...

We are a formidable form of intelligence. Humans can solve things that other biological species cannot solve. We've built computers, we've built the internet, right? We can go to the moon. And so humans have this formidable form of intelligence. We do these things. Now, if you say AI is this new form of intelligence, it can do the things we can do and it can do other things better. And it's improving at a rate that we can't even imagine.

So if you apply AI to the problems we're trying to solve in any domain, it's stunningly good. So for example, you take a problem where in AlphaFold, this is DeepMind, Google owns this AI company. They try to figure out how do proteins fold. Proteins are a string of amino acids, and there's more possibilities of proteins folding than there are atoms in the universe. It's this computational problem that is unimaginable. And everyone thought it was going to be impossible. AlphaFold solved it computationally.

And so it's able to take these impossibly hard problems and solve them at stunning speed. So the idea is it could be applied to reversing aging or reversing the decay of organs. And if you could position it in that way, we could solve these problems that look like they're outside of our realm. Yeah, you said arresting aging, but it seems your goal is reversing because arresting aging, if you're 80, who gives a fuck? You can take me.

So you think reversing aging now does arresting? Both, yeah. There's slowing the speed of aging, and then there's reversing aging damage that has happened. They're two distinct problems. Do black people age better? Have you ever tried shooting some black guy in? I've heard it doesn't crack. Maybe that's why you age so well, because you have a very black name. You might be an albino black guy. If I had Johnson, we did think that you were a black dude. It's a little cultural appropriation right there.

But do they? I mean, you've looked into how people age. It seems like sometimes black people age really well. Yeah. Yeah. So it's just like people know how much money they have in their bank account. They know how many social media followers they have. They know how much they weigh.

soon everyone's going to know their speed of aging. There's a clock inside of you. The one time black people are slower. Yeah. There's clocks. There's clocks to show you. You're proof that not all white people age bad. But you're aging like a regular black guy. That's right.

Millions of dollars. Okay, okay. But have they found that out, that there are certain races that just age a little bit better? That is an interesting question. Al's 73 years old. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he drinks Kool-Aid four times a day. Three. Come on.

I mean, there's data showing that different people in different circumstances, in different environments, different lifestyles have different clocks. So we're starting to get a bigger picture where we can get a very granular understanding of what it means to be a given person in a given environment with a certain lifestyle. And so, yeah, I started doing this. I lowered my speed of aging the equivalent of 31 years. So my body now clocks age at a speed slower than 86% of 18-year-olds.

So as you age, as you get older, you age faster, it compounds. You see this? - Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. - You just see it, it just starts. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, it's a compounded law. And so younger people accumulate aging damage at a slower speed. And so you wanna take your aging clock

down as much as possible. Is there a predictive power to that? So like in 10 years, how old do you think you'll look or how old will you have aged? Yeah, so these clocks are new. They're based upon a technology called DNA methylation. They're not yet gold standard evidence. They're still what's called silver standard because they're not tied to all-cause mortality. Where if you have markers like cholesterol or other things that have a lot more data, phenotypic markers. And so it's really an emergent phenomenon, but it's cool to say like, what's my clock?

So, you know, like having a baby stressful for you and your partner, everyone. And so it would be interesting to look at your clock before pregnancy, during pregnancy, post birth. The clock is the rate of aging. It's not your what we would call like true age. So you're 46 years old. But what would your true age be if you could? I don't know how you would figure that out.

- Yeah, so I'm hundreds of different ages. So for example, my left ear is 64. My heart is 37. My cardiovascular capacity is in the top 1.5% of 18 year olds. My diaphragm is age 18. So I've measured, I've been becoming the most measured person in history. We said, the only way to understand age is you have to look at every organ of the body and then age that organ. And so, you know intuitively that a baby's heart is different than a 90 year old heart. They look different, function different. They have different cells.

And so we basically said, how do you age every part of my body? Sorry, the ear thing is like your hearing is bad or just the ears? Because I know ears continue to grow. Is that all it is? Yeah, looking at my ability to hear sounds. So between 4,000 hertz and 12,000 hertz, I'm basically deaf.

because I shot a lot of guns as a kid. And so I was right-handed, and so I got the exposure on my left ear. Holy shit. And so we still haven't been able to figure out how to fix aging or hearing damage on the ear. But yeah, that's one example where you look at my 18-year-old son, same test, and he's got straight line hearing all the frequencies. I'm deaf in that range. So you get this good enough to actually turn back age, let's say, hypothetical scenario, right? Yeah. Where people can...

bring their this real or actual age there to bring it down do we start treating people based on their actual age then or maybe we don't use actual uh their health age what is the biological age or yeah i mean like yeah i mean a woman was hitting on me yesterday i was like yuck i don't know if i'm of age right like it's but you could be complicated you're too young for the belt but i'm saying oh she could be molesting you that's insane oh

He's just an 18-year-old boy. Oh, my God. Yeah, you can't even have sex anymore. Exactly. I'm playing, but kind of. Are you afraid your erections are going to go too young? Right now they're at 18, but what if they keep going down? Yeah. Pedophiles are going to come after you, so it'll be kind of legal. Yeah.

Also, they found a way around the system. It's so funny. He's such a man. The things they figured out first is cock his abs. You really figured it out. Good job. You can't hear women and you can have sex all the time. I mean, that was the true goal, right? The perfect man. Stop working. The perfect man. Okay. Okay.

Are there, because the average person is not going to do what you're doing, right? Like at this point in time, the average person just doesn't have the time. I know that you think it's capable, they're capable of it, but we're going to go into like how sophisticated your routine is. And they might not just have that discipline. They might not have that time. You might have not had that time at a different part of your life.

Can we just start baseline? What are like the five, six, 10 things that the average person can do that doesn't change their life too much, but can greatly impact longevity or slowing that clock? So it's really good news. There's a few power laws everybody has access to. Okay. And you get the majority of the benefits that I've achieved. So one is don't smoke. Okay.

That takes around 13 years of life off. 13? Yeah. What about an occasional? Like, yeah, I did a ball once a week. Yeah. Is that still taking off 13 as the same as somebody who smokes daily? I don't actually know what the quantity is. Yeah. But I suspect it probably, if the power law is probably just don't smoke generally. Okay. All right. Don't smoke. Don't smoke. Fuck. Yep. The second power law is exercise.

Six hours a week. And so that's, the nuances are four and a half hours in zone two through four. So that's your heart rate of like 120-ish through 150, 160. And then 90 minutes above, 159-ish, depends upon your chronological age. Number three is a blueprint or Mediterranean-like diet.

Number four is a BMI of 18.5 to 22.5. What is Mediterranean-like diet? What does that mean? It's like the blueprint diet is a lot of vegetables, lentils, berries, nuts, seeds. I personally am a vegetarian. I'm vegan, but people can do meat. It's fine. Basically, it's a diet that excludes junk food.

Fast food. Packaged food. Packaged food, sugars, yeah. Just like trying to avoid the bad stuff. And why meat? Why aren't you on the meat? It's because we are baby steps away from superintelligence. Okay. And I hope that as superintelligence emerges, there is a scaling law that as intelligence increases, compassion increases.

corresponds with a one-to-one ratio. So it's not a health thing, it's an ethical thing. It is a, I hope we survive existence thing. And so I- It's not what- You're trying to control all these internal variables. You make compassion to like the chickens.

Compassion for all intelligence. I was like, we're going to get nice to each other once we get super intelligent. I really think he's doing all this work internally. And imagine the environment falls apart. This guy's trying to live forever. And then the earth explodes. And it's like, well, fuck, dude. Why do I have to do all this work for? Yeah, yeah. So here's the essence of everything I'm doing. So the thought experiment is this. So imagine if we could whisper in the ear of those who lived in 1870. We would say, psst.

There are new ideas about these microscopic objects that cause infection. They're called germs. Now, if you lived in the 1870s, you'd probably hear that and be like, that's fucking nuts. You're telling me the shit I can't see with my eyes. What a conspiracy theorist this guy is. Misinformation, yeah. Now, if you were open-minded, you'd say, huh.

Okay, so you're telling me the doctor should maybe wash hands before between surgeries clean the instruments before doing this or that Like the majority of people would be like that's fucking stupid right and you probably died now if you were open-minded And so the question for us is the 25th century could whisper in our ears. What would they say? Yeah, they say Stop drinking what stop smoking? Yeah. Yeah stop the cruelty and the suffering of other organisms on earth probably and

I don't know if they're going that far. Yeah, for sure. I don't know if they're going that far. Especially because there will be- I think they're still gonna be eating chicken in the 26th century. Here's a question. When there is 3D printed meat and all that stuff, you have no issue at that point of eating- Who ages the best? Black people. Not saying they love chicken. I'm just saying there might be certain protein solutions that fit within the diet.

Sure. I mean, this is the thing is like meat is veganism or meat. It's so tribal. The moment you bring up the topic, it's just warfare. Yeah. And it's like, I just don't want to step into it. It's fine. Do your thing. He's like, keep killing yourself. I think what the 25th century says is they say, don't die. If you think about this from like a century time scale, we look at the 15th century and we say, okay, there's 20 things from the 15th century that matter.

Everything else, we're just like, ah, didn't happen. And the same thing is true for the 17th century. Like we just 99.9% of what we do today in this world is going to be gone. Completely forgotten. Just forgotten. So from the 25th century vantage point. And so don't die is don't die individually. Don't kill each other. Don't kill the planet and align superintelligence

With don't die. If you basically say, okay, we are baby steps away from super intelligence. What do we do? Do we use AI to fight better wars? Do we use AI to kill people better? Do we use AI to create more social media followers? Like what is the essence of what's happening in the universe in this moment on this planet at this moment? Can you break down super intelligence to us plebs over here? Yeah. It's probably how...

like an insect intelligence and views us. Like somewhere on that spectra of what can an insect accomplish with its intelligence? And then what can we accomplish with our intelligence? And you make that, you do that comparison and you say, we are probably a few orders of magnitude more intelligent than that form of intelligence. And AI is going to be orders of magnitude more intelligent, like a million- Is it limitless intelligence?

I mean, TBD on what the scaling laws of intelligence are, but whether it's a million times smarter than us or a billion times smarter than us, it's that. And so if you say, and if you look at the speed in which it's progressing, it's we can't internalize. Like we are, even though we try, we are blinded to a speed of progress. And so if you say, if this is a situation where we are on this continuum of intelligence and there's this new thing emergent, what do we do?

And then you say, okay, hey, capitalism, what's the answer? Or hey, socialism, or hey, religion, or hey, whatever. Whatever ideological movement you want to point to or structure. And to me, there's no answers in society. Nobody knows what to do. So you talk about the 25th century. It is conceivable in your mind that you could be talking about yourself 400 years from now and be like, oh, this is what I thought 400 years ago. Yes.

Basically, when you listen to their conversation, they say, we appreciate the 21st century because in that moment, they did this that allowed intelligence to thrive in this part of the galaxy. What did they do? How did they compress the whole 21st century? They figured out the only thing to do was don't die. That was the single imperative of all intelligent life. So you want to be a Magellan?

Yes. And Ernest Shackleton. Yes. Oh. Yeah. Basically, I view myself as an explorer to say in this time and place, what is the most ambitious and impactful thing? I genuinely, I care more about what the 25th century thinks of me than I do right now. I see you talking about that a lot. I don't care what anyone thinks about me right now. And is it because you have admiration for these people in the past? Because my education is primarily from reading biographies.

And so I'm reading people of previous centuries who do impossibly hard things. And it's as predictable as anything that they do a given thing or see a given thing. Everyone shits on them. Yeah. They do it anyways. It becomes inevitable. Yeah. And then society adopts it. Galileo. We all forget that. Yeah. Take your pick of any number of examples. And so if you care what people think right now, you're playing a game of the moment, which is fine. Like definitely a cool game to play. Also, it's going to be swept away in time.

history. Guys, come March, I'm going back out on the road. I took six weeks off, obviously, for the little one. Now I got to go out there and build a college fund real quick. I will see you guys on the road. Thank you guys so much for grabbing tickets. We have Nashville, okay? Houston, Austin, Texas, and we added another one in Phoenix.

You guys can go grab tickets to those right now. This month, it's going to be wild, man. Philadelphia, thank you for selling out the shows. Then San Francisco, thank you for selling out all four shows. And damn, Tampa and Miami, thank you for selling those out. I appreciate y'all so much. TheAndrewSchultz.com, the life tour, man. Go check it out. Also, guys, your boy got some dates. Oklahoma City, I'm not going to lie to you. Them tickets ain't selling. I've been selling out a lot of shows, and then Oklahoma City came along and fucked me right in the mouth.

Can I be honest with you, Oklahoma City? I don't know what the fuck else you got to do. That state sucks. You know how much it sucks? White people put the other Indians there as punishment. The fuck you think you got to do? You think you got better things to do? You don't. I'm telling you that right now. February 23rd and 24th, bring that ass through. Native Americans, come up off the reservation. Let's fucking make fun of the white folks together.

And if you're not there, we'll make fun of you because you're not there. Also, March 1st and 2nd, Greensboro, North Carolina. March 8th and 9th, Stanford, Connecticut. And this is big. March 14th through 16th, Donia Beach. That's Miami. I'm coming back to my past and future home, hopefully. Buy the fucking tickets. AkashSingh.com, Donia Beach. There's other shows, Tempe, Denver, other shows, Jacksonville. I'm coming through Duval County. But

Point is, y'all need to buy those tickets. Also, real quick, May 10th, Los Angeles, y'all should buy those tickets for the improv because I promise those will sell out quickly. But March 14th through 16th, Donia Beach, let's sell out. You know what I mean? Miami, let's do this. Akashling.com, let's go. When did you develop that? Do you always have that? Because you used to be a much more emotional person, it seems, based on the way you talk about your past life. I really, yeah, I guess I've really always enjoyed playing on different time zones. Like school was very hard for me. I really hated being sitting in class playing.

It was so slow and boring. I just wanted to go out and learn on my own. And I found biographies to be the coolest way to learn because you could really sink in and understand the person in their time and place. Like not just read about World War II, but like read about someone who lived during World War II and what was happening. Like how did Nazi Germany rise? Like what was it like to live in that society versus like this person got assassinated and it triggered this war and then this army moved from this front.

So, yeah, I really, I wanted to understand reality with the level of granularity that I'm to model out what happened to that timeframe. Hmm. So you thought understanding their specific lives gave a better understanding of the scenario that they were in. Yeah. And they, they were my friends in my mind. Like in when I wanted to talk to somebody about a given problem, I had studied them so much. What would Shackleton do?

So your peers, so your peers whose approval you want is past figures in history, not the people you're around from a young age. Exactly. That's fucking fascinating. Does your wealth not play a part? Because I've noticed a lot of billionaires get a lot of money and then all of a sudden they don't want to die and they're all trying to live forever, put their consciousness in some AI and freeze their body or something like that. Like is, does the wealth have anything to do with it?

So actually, it was a goal of mine at the age of 21. I just I came back from Ecuador. I lived among extreme poverty there, dirt floors, mud huts. And my reality had changed after being there for two years. I'm fully immersed in this culture. I came back to US. The only thing I cared about was trying to make the human race better.

I just had this fire burning and I didn't know what to do. I wasn't good at anything. I didn't really have any, like any skills. So credit card processing is a natural help for humanity. Yeah. Like fog and mirror, you're qualified. Like legit. I just had nothing that was really, I was good at. Yeah. So I said, I'm going to make a whole bunch of money by age of 30. And then with money, I'm going to do something interesting. And then I set off to make money as the only objective. And then when I made the money, the question was, okay, I made it.

what do I do? Like back on that 21 year old goal. - Now you can live forever to work your way out of the debt. - That's interesting. Okay, so the goal was just get as much money as you possibly can and then you can make that change. But it was always make change. At what point does it become, I'm gonna stop us from dying?

It was that thought experiment. So after I made the money, it was in 2013, I made a few hundred million dollars from selling my company, Braintree Venmo. But then like my life was on fire. So I had three kids. I was depressed for a decade, chronically depressed for a decade. - Suicidal? - Yes. I desperately wanted to end my life.

Like every day, it was my only wish. Okay. So you have this goal burning inside you, which is to save humanity. Yeah. And at the exact same time, you want to kill yourself. Yes. Wow. Desperately. Yeah. Put the oxygen mask on first, bro. Yeah. I mean. It's true. That's what they say. It's legit. And, you know, I was in a 13-year marriage that we were struggling and then I just sold my company, then I was leaving my religion. So like everything was broken in my life. Mm-hmm.

And so I first had to get the mask on the face. And so in one year's time, I ended the marriage. I sold my company. I emerged from chronic depression and left the religion. And then I moved to New York. And you went to Brooklyn and you went to a house party for six hours. Is that true? I went to Brooklyn. I went to a warehouse party.

I did. And it was my first time. I went with some friends and I, for the first time in my entire life, I started dancing. And it was because I grew up, like we didn't really move our bodies very much. And I started dancing at midnight or one whenever we started. I believe it's called soaking, right? That emerged after me. I missed that. Okay.

- Dude, he would've been so happy. He would've been Mormon to this day if he was sober. - His spirit would be forever changed if he could just soak in that thing. - Okay. - For sure. - Okay, go on. - Yeah, so then I danced for six hours and then I was asking my friends. - Molly? - Molly? - Molly, were you on some-- - No. - No drugs, nothing? - This is just sober.

Yeah, for a Mormon, it's like, you know, you don't need the Mormon's don't party. Now, he was drinking a lot in his unhappiness. No, no, no alcohol, no caffeine. Were you not drinking a lot? No, just party, like music and dancing. So tame. It's so tame. Yeah. I thought you were drinking a lot. Yeah.

Before that, right? When you're depressed and that's still, okay. No, no. Yeah. It's just not part of the culture. Okay. Yeah. So yeah, at 6 a.m. You're dancing, you're rocking. And what does it feel like? Is it the greatest night of your life? Best night of my life. To this day? To this day. On one of the biggest, one of the most important moments of my entire life. And it was just like my mind up until that point had, I had lived in an existence where it was, here's what you can do as a human, a list of things you can and can't do.

And that moment, it became a list, not a list, it just became everything I could do. And my body moving was this representation of my mind now being able to move in any direction it wanted. And it was just this spectacular moment of existence where I, I don't know, somehow unlocked the body, unlocked the mind, and it just worked. And in a warehouse in Brooklyn.

- Next day, what happens? What's going through your mind? You wake up. - I'm like, where are we dancing next? - You start chasing a little bit. - Yeah, I had a crew, we were hanging out, we went to parties all the time, we were always dancing. And like, I'm not even a good dancer. I just really enjoy moving my body. And yeah, then it was this question where I just got fixated on this question, what do you do? So you have a few hundred million dollars, you can do something, one thing, what do you do?

And I knew if I, when I chose that given thing, it was going to take me a few decades to build. So you can't miss, you can't be off. Oh, wow. I see. I see. I see. I see. I see. Okay. Okay. Okay. So,

How long is that deliberation period? A decade. So it's 10 years figuring out what that project is going to be. What are some of the other projects that you've dabbled in that you're like, eh, this ain't it? Yeah, so the first thing I did... Yeah. Yes? No, I wanted to start DJing because I wanted to do the music. I just started tap dancing, though. I want...

Brian, we need you to tap dance. We have to do it. At some point today, we're tap dancing. I just started. Yeah, that's good material. Okay. Tap dance is getting better. Okay, okay, okay. Sorry. So yeah, the first thing I did is I put $100 million into a venture fund. I started investing. So this hypothesis was,

Science allows us to engineer atoms and molecules and organisms. So we can engineer physical reality. So we're very good at computers and programming software, but if we have a problem like, hey, the coral reef can't sustain the heat levels in the ocean, how do you redesign coral reef? Can you actually design the biological system of coral reef? So I started investing in companies doing that, and I made 42 investments. And like one company, for example,

If you take a problem like you want rose oil, because rose oil is an input for a fragrance or something. You plant a seed, it grows into a plant, you water it, you fertilize it, you harvest it, and you get rose oil.

Now, the other alternative is you take a yeast cell, you program the yeast cell to manufacture rose oil. You don't need to grow it in a field. You don't need the fertilizer. You don't need the water. You don't need all the- Much faster process. Much faster. And you can do that with almost anything. And so I invested in companies that were programming physical reality or even another company doing atoms, like atom by atom by Lego structures to build new filters or to build new structures to hold gas or like there's infinite number of varieties. And so I was trying to basically say-

We as a species, and this is before the pandemic, I said we need to build a global biological immune system where we build the infrastructure that allows this continued survival. But we need to do so at a biological and atomic level. So I spent, because I wanted to basically be in the trenches of deep tech, like what's happening in science? And so I had to hang out with these PhD entrepreneurs and I learned about all things science. It was for the first time in my life.

That was fun. And then I built a brain interface company where we were trying to figure out. So just like when you buy. It's just kernel. It's kernel. Yeah. So just like you buy a washer and dryer before you buy it, you don't look whether the door is big enough.

for it to come through the door. You just know it's big enough because society has engineered standards. When you buy a car, it's like, can you get out the measuring tape, honey? Will it fit in the garage? Will it fit in the lanes? It would never make, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's going to fit in the lanes because we build according to engineer standards of what we can measure. But when we can't measure things, we can't build accordingly. So our brains is one thing we can't routinely measure.

And so I wondered if you build a brain interface to measure the human brain, could we build society around our brains and specifically around the wellness of our brains? And so we built this device, this wearable fMRI. It's like a bike helmet you put on your head and it's the first mass market device. They've done little things with this. Like I think the reason why...

phone numbers are seven digits is because we can remember up to seven numbers or something like that. I think our like short-term retention is up to seven numbers. So they have tried to do certain things around the way our brains function. We just don't understand the brain enough. - Exactly. - Oh, that's so interesting. So you understand the brain, we could be walking on the wrong side of the street.

Elevators could be moving too slow. It could be too cold in the rooms or whatever these things are. You understand the brain and how it functions at the optimal level. You build society around that. Yeah, what a great hack. Yeah. And how do you come to that even idea? Dancing. Exactly. No, it was like, again, I've been obsessed with superintelligence as a species.

We are at a make or break moment as a species. We either are gonna win big or we're gonna probably annihilate ourselves. Do you have examples of how our brain is out of sync with how society is built? What happened to you? Where were you where your personal brain was out of sync with society and you're like, this is a problem that needs to be solved? What is that moment? Because that seems to be the catalyst for the company, right? Yeah, so science begins with counting, right?

When you can count a phenomena, you can engineer it with precision. And we can't count our brain. And so, for example, like I was, when we built Kernel, we were trying to find things we could do to make this intuitive. I thought, I'm going to do psychedelics.

on with ketamine. They're going to use ketamine, which is not psychedelic. Ketamine is like an anesthesia and a, you use it for surgery or whatever, horse tranquilizer. So I did ketamine with this brain interface. And so the question is people are using ketamine for the treatment of depression. It's also used for a party drug, et cetera. And I wanted to pose this question, what happens to someone's brain when you take ketamine?

Because right now you take it and people are like, how did you feel? What did you experience? And like, well, I was in a different dimension or whatever, but we don't have numbers to explain it. And so if you're trying to use it for the treatment of depression or any other condition, having a quantified framework really helps. Or is this drug going to work for depression? Or is this drug going to work for anxiety? Or like all the thousands of questions we have about our brains,

What does this diet do? What does exercise do? What do my friends do to my brain? What does social media exposure? What does, and I fill it in with a thousand questions. And I wanted to provide a easy, low cost path where we could pose all these questions and then connect it with AI, where now you've got this closed loop experience. Like imagine before you go to bed, you're like, hey, AI,

help me get ready for bed and you give ai like a few thousand sounds a few thousand images like you know and use access to your air conditioning everything your

your shades in your apartment, the music that can make you go, oh my God. And give it real time, like use the Sora, OpenAI's new video generator. Play whatever show. And be like, help me get ready for bed or help me get ready for this conversation where I'm going to have a hard conversation with a friend. And you're also feeding that AI your biological data in real time. So it's adjusting a

according to your biological data. As you get deeper into sleep, maybe the volume slowly starts to decrease.

Whoa. Within milliseconds. So your house is like a living organism that's reacting to you. Exactly. And an extension of you. Exactly. This is the fusion of all intelligence. This is what I'm talking about. That's why Don't Die matters. It's not just about you, but it's about our entire organisms of species. We're all fused. Don't look at your house as just this shelter. Look at your house as an extension of you. This is, oh yeah, it's, I mean, not to be critical of it, but like,

If you're looking at Neuralink as just putting the chip in your brain to change that thing in your brain, it doesn't solve the things that your brain is reacting to in your world. But if everything in your world is not only extension of you and other people, it's almost how the cells in your body work. Yeah. Aren't they constantly reacting to one another?

Whoa. So now it's kind of like an internet of things. Yeah, we're one organism. Yeah. Is that... We're linked. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Are you familiar with this idea of transhumanism? Yes. Would you consider yourself a transhumanist? I've avoided saying yes to any frame to avoid adopting...

frameworks I may not be familiar with. Like I'm not entirely sure how people understand that word. So like for example, when I started doing this, people were like, hey, this is a tech bro or a biohacker or, and I said, actually none of those things. I'm a rejuvenation athlete because people would look at me, they say he's nuts, he's weird, he's eccentric.

But then you look at LeBron James and no one's like, LeBron, that's stupid, man. You're going to bed on time. You're eating well. You're an idiot. You both spend the same amount on your body. We do. I'm eccentric and weird and he's amazing. So just reframe it. I'm an athlete. I'm a professional rejuvenation athlete. Yeah, that is true because you can get the negative connotation that goes with some of those framings. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, okay. Okay, so back to this. So each...

apparatus in your house becomes this extension of you and helps optimize you, right? Is that the idea behind this? But in order to do that, you need to know exactly how your brain is reacting to all these stimuli. Exactly. And have you been able to map the brain's reaction?

We've done, yeah, we've done a lot of emotion work. This was Inquest? What was the name of this company? Kernel. Oh, this is Kernel? Yes, it's Kernel. Okay, there was another one that you, doesn't matter. Yeah, yeah. Okay, Kernel, got it. Okay. Yeah, we looked at emotions. We've looked at brain age and response. We've looked at cognitive decline. We did a study around alcohol, for example, where we had a placebo low and high level of alcohol. And when someone is at the low level of alcohol,

They become impaired, but the brain compensates for the impairment. So if you do a behavioral test, you can't tell they're impaired. But if you put the kernel device on, you can see they're impaired. And this is what happens to cognitive decline, that people start losing their minds for decades.

But the mind compensates for it, and then it manifests when the brain can no longer do it, which we saw in the high level of alcohol where the brain became so impaired, the brain couldn't compensate for it. And so Kernel could show a mild cognitive impairment long before you start showing symptoms, and then you could do something about it.

So these are the things. It sits invisible, but it's really important to know if you're starting to lose your mind, you don't want to wait and find out later on in life. It's only invisible because we're not measuring it effectively. Exactly. That's why science begins with counting. You need to have the data. Otherwise, you just don't know what's going on. And is this successful? Is this functioning right now? It is, yeah. It's in clinical trials for both depression and mild cognitive impairment. My data is MCI.

So did my dad. Really? Yeah. Did he have, did it develop into Alzheimer's? No, it's still early stages. Early stages. Does he have the amyloid plaque buildup? We haven't had it tested yet. Got you. Yeah, this is my stepfather. He's pretty resistant to- A lot of these things. Doing much about it, yeah. Yeah, it gets tricky. And also as the disease worsens, they become increasingly more resistant. But yeah, it's really interesting how-

So this is like the equivalent to people getting full body MRI scans to try to catch cancer before it even comes up. Is the brain more difficult to reverse aging or prevent decay than other organs of the body? Each organ has its own opportunities and challenges.

I mean, for example, one thing, I reduced my brain age on one marker by nine years. And so it's called white matter hyperintensities. And it's like, think of it kind of like a scar tissue a little bit. I had it in large part because I had bad posture.

I read this up on your... Yeah, and so I did an MRI. I know it's a little uncomfortable, right? But it's like a very specific posture that you had to find, right? Yeah, so I did this MRI. I found that my internal jugular veins, these pipes on the side of the neck that come from the brain out, they allow blood flow. Mine are congenitally small, narrow. So my posture, which has probably like this,

further made those veins unable to have-- - Restricted those veins. - Exactly. - So you're not getting the blood flow that you need. - Exactly. - Oh, wow. - So we measured it with ultrasound, with MRI, and I started working on, that's why I worked on posture so hard, to optimize for blood flow in and out of the brain, and we measured this, and when I did that, it reduced my brain age on this marker by nine years. - Wow. - Did you feel immediate difference in cognitive ability? - I did. - And how did that manifest?

I had a lot of residual brain fog and I didn't know it was fog. You drink some coffee or you do some sort of upper to kind of push through it. But in reality, it's just your brain's dying. Yeah. You have no blood getting there. Yeah, exactly. And I'm curious, of course, going the natural way is best. But did you ever consider getting surgery, like putting a stent to just...

I did. Increase blood flow. Yeah, I'm open to it. So stents haven't worked. There's another surgery where they, it's really a risky surgery. They go in, they slice you up on the neck. There's all these delicate muscles. And so basically no one has a surgery to fix this. Oh, wow. I was open to it, but yeah. How many people do you think have this same type of thing where they're getting reduced blood flow? Thousands of people have emailed me being like,

"Oh my God, I have been trying to solve this for a decade and like no one has given me answers. I've looked into it and like I've got it too." So it's more common than people think. It hasn't been given a language. It's a very esoteric area of medicine. Have you ever experienced stress related breathing difficulties? I don't think so. Like almost like a hyperventilation state due to stress?

Never heard anything about this. I mean, I personally haven't experienced it. Yeah. Well, there goes my question. How did you fix your posture? I got a, so I found a specialist who is a specialist in this given area and he taught me. And so the easiest way to think about it is imagine you have a string right above your head and you pull it straight up. And to build these muscles, it takes about six months.

You can already feel yourself tired. And so you have to every day for the first few months, you probably have to remind yourself 200 times. It's constant. And then what now it's just become habitual.

But then in my family, we have a culture of posture. So my son was like, dad's like an AI. He's like this. And so now every time anyone in the family hears, everyone in the family pops right up. And it's just a nice thing for all of us to do because it's so easy to be like, you know, on your phone or like typing. And so just a cultural thing now we have. Do you think like homo sapiens earlier had better posture? Yeah.

I have no idea. Like, I'm curious how, like, the historic precedent for human beings, like, I wonder if you feel like you're at odds with our evolutionary past. Like, are you trying to resist our animal nature that we came from, or are you trying to embrace and return to those elements, like better posture, you know, exercise, things like that? Yeah, this is, I think, a topic a lot of people are interested in. A lot of people make the argument if it's time-tested over a certain duration of time, there's some credibility to it, and the new modern technology

science methods still have to prove themselves. I really side on the science and counting part. If I can measure it, now I believe it. I don't give a default position of strength that just because something's been around for some duration of time that it has the, it's in the correct position. I have a question. You left Mormonism, your faith. What's your relationship with God? I think it's one of the most beautiful ironies of our existence is

I mean, the universe is irony, ultimately, every time you look at this. And so the story has been God created man, and now we're doing this thing. If you look at the stories, all religions tell, it's typically that same tale. I think the truth is evolution created man, and man's going to create God. Okay. Or we will become God or something like that. So as a religious person, I think most faiths kind of say we all have God within us. Yeah. Yeah.

But then also they say kind of the goal of life is to break free of the life cycle, whether it's heaven and hell, whether it's breaking reincarnation. So as a religious person, it's interesting to hear. Part of me really agrees with what you're saying. Like, yeah, we all have the ability to be God, right? You could solve humanity. Yeah. Like God would make a utopia like God would. And then part of me is very unsettled by this idea of living forever and never like

Like essentially rejecting the goals of all religions. Yeah. Yeah, this is such a delicious conversation because I remember in Mormonism where like your... Delicious is crazy. It made me feel good about myself. It was great. To be honest with you. You ain't calling none of your conversations religious. Okay, but go on, go on, go on. I mean, I was told...

like you have these rules to obey. If you obey these rules, you get the prize. Yeah. And the prize is an afterlife. So the only thing you care about, you made a few hundred million. You're like, I got it. I'll take it from here. Yeah. It was like, so you, you, if the world burns around you, not only do you not care, you see it as fulfillment of scripture. Yeah. So I like,

Great. Like things are going according to plan. I have no responsibility to fix the world. I have no responsibility. This is great. Like things are going really well. So my only responsibility is to play the rules of the system. And that really poses a very serious question because we can be respectful of all ideas. And then there's a very practical moment where we say, we may all die.

And maybe we think we have this safety net where we're going to get this afterlife. Maybe we don't. But it creates a real fracture in the species. And so this is what I guess why I come back to Don't Die is the most played game on planet Earth every day, every second of every day is Don't Die.

We all breathe every few seconds to not die. If something happened in this room and we felt threatened, we would leave this room because we don't want to die. It's our number one priority, more so than this conversation. And so every human on the planet, every second of every day plays Don't Die. Now you take one step above Don't Die and we fracture into a billion different games.

We care about different things every moment of every day. And so if we have to say as a species, if we have to align ourselves around one thing, don't die.

And so in that way, I think every religious group could come together and say, don't die. I mean, it is, it's already our faith. It's already, it's already, it's played more than capitalism. It's played more than anything in existence. And now like, I'm not saying this to argue as if I'm right, but there is a difference that it's a don't die for that finite amount of time. You want to extend it, but the idea of living forever is different than, but given the opportunity to live forever, who's saying no to it.

But see, the thing is on Don't Live Forever, it breaks the human brain.

On don't live forever? On living forever. On living forever. On living forever. We cannot understand what it means to live forever. So you say those words. Yeah, I don't know if I want that. Exactly. As you're saying. Don't die is more digestible than live forever. Exactly. We already have a belief that we will live forever. Like as a religious person, you have this idea that our consciousness and our soul will prolong. Yeah. So like, have you read Denial of Death? Are you familiar with this book? I'm familiar with the book. I haven't read it. It's amazing. Like it's basically this idea that kind of like,

brings together all these different philosophers' ideas of this exact principle, that the ambient philosophy of all living things is don't die. Don't die. And that all things that we do, like even stand-up comedy, like the approval of other people, is to not get rejected by the in-group to then prolong our existence. Yeah. And yeah, I just think at that point, even if you're a religious person, you still believe that you will live forever. So it's kind of already baked into us. Yeah. So actually, Don't Die is the ultimate cooperation game because...

everybody can have their various beliefs. Yeah. And it's totally cool. Everyone's cool. We're all going to cooperate. You were right. This is delicious, dude. Delicious conversation. Yeah. I guess I still, I don't fully agree with that because I do think in religion again, in the end, eventually, I don't think a lot of religious people want to live forever. I just, I have, I don't, as it is now in this moment, your religion is the most run it back.

Run it back. And then the goal is to break free of the life cycle. But what is Nirvana?

Breaking free of the life cycle. Moksha is like... Living forever. That's the afterlife. But it is freedom from desire, essentially, all desire, I'm free of. And that's when you reach moksha, which is usually when you break the life cycle. But that is, again... But how long do you exist in moksha for? That's eternity. That's your soul. We're already on board. Yeah. The thing is, though, we don't... Brian's just trying to make moksha here. You understand the difference between...

The paradise and then just... Yes. Yeah. It's getting less delicious, I'll be honest. The elegance of this argument, though, is we don't need to grapple with... See the elegance? It's not delicious, but it's elegant. This guy's so good. He's so good. Okay, go. Don't die. Yeah. And tomorrow, wanting tomorrow is the same as living forever.

You just want to keep on wanting tomorrow. Yes. We care about tomorrow. That's it. Now, we can build reality based upon caring about tomorrow. And we all can have our own imaginations on what exists beyond tomorrow. Fine. Yeah. We all want tomorrow. And that's if we want to bind ourselves together, we can then crush all the things that divide us into the we care about tomorrow. Let's not die today.

And we just do that for some unknown duration of time. Hi, everybody. I'm wearing something different now. While we're sitting with somebody who is clearly optimizing his performance with the PEDs, with the performance enhancing drugs, I think it's a perfect transition to talk to other people who definitely should be using performance enhancing drugs. And those are athletes. And I just want to say that...

Jamil lost us a million dollars. Listen, he did lose us a million dollars. He did lose us a million dollars. We could have won a million dollars. And I think we hit everything except Clyde Hilaire. Edwards Hilaire. He bet on Clyde Edwards Hilaire? To get a touchdown. What is he doing? And I asked him, I was like, listen, there's a lot of money on the line here. Why don't you call up a professional buddy of yours who knows how to gamble and just pick the best ones and we could make some fucking money.

I didn't even see this guy enter the game. No, he doesn't play. Isaiah Pacheco plays there. There's like a seventh-round running back. This guy was a first-round pick. God bless. He does make plays sometimes, but he got benched for a seventh-round pick or whatever he was, Isaiah Pacheco. He might not even have been drafted. I don't know. But that was just – Because as the game – I mean, when it went to overtime, I was like –

Oh, we absolutely got this. And I think that we hit every other marker. You guys can tell me if we did or not. But anyway, shout out to PrizePix. You got away clean on this one, but the next one I'm on that S.

Oh, but you can still do NBA. I'm putting prize picks in today. I got Jacob Poteau. They're playing the Nets who just fired their head coach. So I think he'll get less than 12 and a half points. And I think Mikael Bridges will get more than 23 and a half points. Those are my prize picks for today. But you can play all year is the point. Yeah, go to prizepicks.com, man, and use the promo code Schultz, S-C-H-U-L-Z, and they're going to match your initial deposit bonus up to $100. It's the easiest fucking thing on the planet.

I genuinely mean this. They're going to give you these situations where you basically choose more or less. With basketball, more or less rebounds. They're going to put it out there. You choose more or less. And you know fantasy, you got to like set your lineups every week. Too much of an effort. Play this wherever you want to. Yeah, it's incredible. Anyway, prizepicks.com. Shout out to y'all.

Let's get back to the show. Okay, so what's this future gonna look like next maybe 10, 20 years? I feel like you have an idea where we're gonna go. Yeah, great question. What are the innovations that we're gonna see? It's delicious.

- Thank you dude. That means a lot. - Okay, what is it? Next 10, 20, what are we gonna see? - So I think there's, instead of predicting the actual thing, I'm gonna tell you how to think about it.

Okay, actually, do you want to play a game? This will take a few minutes to play this game. Yeah, I was about to. Does Alex get naked? Maybe. Maybe. Okay, so we're going to speed through this. This is basically a very abbreviated version of I've been hosting these dinners at my house about the future of being human. Okay. And I bring together 10 or 12 people, and it's a two-and-a-half-hour-long conversation.

People will dip into existential crisis multiple times and come back up. At the end, we typically find ourselves hugging and wanting to hang out again. So we're going to do a very compressed version. Yeah, take your time. There's no rush on this. All right. So first question. If you had access to an algorithm that could give you the best physical, mental, and spiritual health of your life...

But in exchange for achieving that, you had to do what the algorithm said. So go to bed on time, go to bed when I said, eat what it said, so on and so forth. Let's just keep it to health and wellness stuff. Like your mind is still doing its own thing. Okay. Do you say yes to the algorithm or do you say no? And again, give me it one more time. So the algorithm is. You have access to an algorithm that gives you the best physical, spiritual, emotional health of your entire life. Okay. You've never been better as a human.

But in exchange for that, you're doing what the algorithm says. Do you say yes to that or do you say no to that? Well, I say no, probably. Yeah, I don't know. I want to say I'd say yes. I probably wouldn't even stick to it if I did. I say no so fast it's not even fair. Yeah. Because I'm happy in doing the things that I'm doing. Like I'm not necessarily seeking...

More happiness if I was coming from like a really deep and dark place Maybe I would look for the salvation there But I'm like really happy really fulfilled and I really love what's going on and I love the freedom that I have and freedom is the most important thing for me under under the hypothetical can you reject what the algorithm is suggesting and

No. But you can't get that. For me, freedom is over everything. The only reason I want money is to have the freedom to do exactly what I want to do whenever I want to do it. Unfortunately, I'd probably say no. Yeah, I need freedom. If you must accept it, then I would say no. Yeah, if you must accept it, it's hard enough. If you can reject it, then I would be curious to know what the algorithm thinks. I need the freedom, Brian.

It's gotta be a no. Yeah. So four nos. Yes. But I feel like this is the setup. This is the beginning. Step one, baby. Don't worry about it. Step one. Here we go. I wanna say this. Here we go. Do you wanna see your parents again? Okay, okay, go on. All right, now, the next turn. I want my mom to do it. Yeah, exactly. You want everyone else in your life to be healthy, happy, but you wanna do Molly. Yeah. Okay.

All right, next turn of the conversation. Let's now be an anthropologist, okay? We're going to imagine ourselves transported in time to 25th century. We're observing this conversation right now, and we are trying to assess what do Homo sapiens value in the year 2024? What are their intellectual dispositions? What are the ethical and cultural norms?

How do they understand themselves? What are the characteristics of their intelligence? What do they observe about your comments you guys just said? Autonomy. Value of autonomy. Yeah, I would say so. Yeah, freedom and individuality. Yeah. And maybe a lack of foresight. I think that if we're at this time where they're living forever...

And we're essentially choosing not to live forever. And not be as happy. And not maybe be as happy. But maybe we don't know what that happiness is and maybe we're happy right now. So it's not anything that we're essentially sacrificing. And maybe the restriction of these rules could reduce our happiness. So we're looking at it as like a deduction. Yeah. But are they living forever in this hypothetical? Yeah.

In the 25th century? Yeah, the thought experiment that we're playing with is just the best, like the best existence you've ever had. No, I'm saying 25th century people that are looking back at us. Are they living forever by then?

Aging is solved, yes. Aging is solved. Okay. So they're looking back at us and they're going, wow, these idiots are throwing away living for hundreds of years or thousands of years and experiencing love for thousands of years, experiencing kindness and camaraderie and building these great societies so that they can eat Snickers and they could stay up until four in the morning. You know what they would look at us like? The way we look at drug addicts. Like you're choosing this perceived pleasure over what's actually good for you. That's foolish.

They never did drugs though, so they don't know what they mess with. They don't know what it's like. They don't know. They don't know what that is. They never danced in Brooklyn for six hours, Brian. Okay, Miles, you want to say something? Would they be mad because we're not doing the things that allow them to reach this aging solve faster? I mean, how do you feel about people of previous centuries who did various things that stunted human progress?

Probably angry, honestly. Oh, we're selfish. Yeah, that's my point on that. Are we mad that they're selfish? But also, we're talking about a future existence where people are as perfect as they can be. So I think anger is probably a negative feeling. That's also true. They could have got there fast. I don't know. Maybe they're laughing at us.

But yeah, like maybe if someone in the past, I don't know, maybe I'm extrapolating. These selfish fucks. They want to live for themselves. They're mad at like 17th century people for not allowing science to progress. Like that's adorable, I think. Yeah, they'll feel sorry for it. It's like, damn, if they only knew. Yeah, are you mad about people like pre-germ theory? Like I'm not mad. I'm not mad at them at all. It means nothing. Okay. To me, yeah.

Even like those people that locked up Galileo. I kind of like that. You need some rules. You need some rules. This guy's throwing everything around. I just painted this entire mural. All you do is flout the rules. That's your whole thing is flouting the rules. Yeah, I like to be Galileo too. Not everybody can be Galileo. You need rules in order to flout them. So we want the rules, but we want to break the rules. If there's no rules, it's no fun. We want to be a little dangerous. Okay, let's keep going. First rule.

provocation, you saw how ruthlessly you rejected the notion. The knee-jerk reaction was just violent. It was just like, get the fuck out. You flip the frame and we pull in the wisdom that we know exists. We look back at previous entries and we see them

as some form of primitive existence. We see ourselves as more enlightened. So you flip the frame and you see that we become introspective. We think, well, it's interesting how we behave this way. And so now we're a little open-minded, right? Like we're not as entirely closed as that first prompt. First prompt is just like, it dunks. Okay, now let's just say in our current situation, what could possibly change or what could possibly be happening that would change the circumstances of what we think to be the case?

And so if you say, all right, homo sapiens have been the dominant form of intelligence for 200,000 years. As a species, we've just dominated the planet and we've done remarkable things from the atomic level to everything else. We've been the custodians of information. So what we learn in school, we understand things, we have shared knowledge, but we are the shared custodians of all knowledge. This is primarily known as a first principles thinking perspective. It's known as engineering. So when you want to build something,

You want to acquire all knowledge and you want to make the fewest number of assumptions possible and walk your way through it. There's a new concept called zeroth principle thinking. And that is- Zero- Zeroth. Zeroth. Okay. Is that why you're zero on- Yes. Twitter? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Got it. Yeah. I came up with this concept, zeroth principle thinking. Okay. And it's

Einstein's theory of special relativity is a zero-principle discovery because you can't go from Newtonian physics to his special theory of relativity from first principles. He pulled it out of another dimension. A germ theory is a zero-principle discovery because if you say my eyes are the custodian of all knowledge,

And then you realize this thing is this microscopic object, you pull it out of another dimension. So pretty much any paradigm shift is gonna be in the works principle. Exactly, yeah. The vanishing point in Renaissance art

What is the vanishing point? You put the point and you draw the lines so you have dimension in art. Ah, like a road or something like that. Exactly. The vanishing point is a paradigm shift. It is a zero thinking. Exactly. Got it. So it's presenting something that has not existed before in any way, shape, or form. There's nothing that precedes it. It's not multiplication is built on addition. This is a brand new concept. And rejects the first principle theory of thinking altogether, like kind of renders it null. Exactly.

Yeah, exactly. Like Euclid's elements to Cartesian geometry. Like sometimes there's these huge jumps in mathematics. We need another thing. Yeah, so germs. I got you right away. We need another thing. Started glossing over. I got you, I got you. The germs? No.

I got you. I got you. He said, Euclid's? And I was like, I'm out! I was like, none of us know? I got what he said. So we all thought, I see everything. Everything that we know to be fact, science is based on what we can see. Then somebody came around. There's like, no, there's a bunch of microbes you can't see at all. Right. Germ period. That will kill you. So that took that. The way we looked at the world and it's like, that's actually completely incorrect. Here's the truth. Yeah.

That's the zeroth principle. That first principle thinking? That I get. What's the euclid thing you were talking about? I'll give you another example. I'll give you another example. I'll just do the example. I'm not going to explain the thing we knew. It's his example he used. Okay, euclid. Who is euclid? Well, I'll give you another example. Thank God. Start with that.

There was never a need for zero to exist. Zero had to be discovered. People knew that you had one fish, you were cool, one piece of bread, you're cool, you're one thing. But what's the utility of zero? I don't...

I don't subscribe to this at all. Okay. Because the Indians invented zero. Like, we know what zero is. How many children do you have? You're like, I have no idea how to fathom what number. How much pussy do Indians get? Like, there's got to be a number for these. Yeah, you do. That was a bad example. So, yeah, the idea of zero is there. We know it's there.

So there's this book, A Biography of a Dangerous Idea, which is the discovery of zero. It took humanity hundreds of years to discover zero. You don't believe that? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Zero broke mathematics. Zero broke religion. Zero broke philosophy. How many antelope did you hunt today, babe? Oh, we got no antelope. Zero. We brought back zero. We're going to starve. Are you talking about the mathematical application or the conceptual, like, social? All of the above.

There's no way that people didn't know that there was nothing there. Yeah, this is you. I would need for you to prove this because I want Indians to get credit for that. But please disprove. What were they doing before that? He's dumb. I just need you to tell him because I don't know. But what were they doing before that? Because I might be dumber. Yeah. So, I mean, you're talking about in, yeah, sure. Like you can say I didn't get anything when I hunted today, which is basically. Zero. Yeah. But without zero, you like even like on a calendar, you know, like year one, we didn't start at year zero.

Zero was not a number in operation across mathematics, across philosophy, across... Zero still is an issue in quantum mechanics and mathematics that still breaks all of our things. So zero... Let me give you another example. Like why? I don't... Zero... Let me try to bridge this.

I feel like this is the easiest thing that people understood. I think nothing might have been a concept, but zero as a number and an idea. Yeah, the mathematical application. Yeah, mathematical application, sure. But conceptually, people knew what nothing is because most of their life was nothing. I think they never thought to apply it in the same way. My stomach has zero in it. I need to go get some food. We understood emptiness. We understood nothing. So, yeah. Okay.

I concede your point. Like, the people understand. Sick. Yeah. You got me. You got me. Okay. So back to zero principle thinking. Yeah. It's like there are these discoveries in existence that change paradigm. The earth is not the center of the universe. Right.

that we are actually orbiting the sun in this larger galaxy, we're extended out. So ideas that come and they break our reality. And so humans have been able to discover zeros, one every once in a while. So not very frequently. We do it, we discover germs or we discover special theory of relativity. And then society is like, that's stupid as fuck. Then we roll around to it, we're like, actually, that's obvious. But it takes us a while to digest zeros.

Whereas ones are easy. If you just say, you know, we take this given thing, it's working, and we're going to make it better. So much easier to understand. Electric cars. But aren't all the zeroes predicated on prior technology and science? Then it wouldn't be a zero, bro. But what would foundationally make it a zero if...

Like, for example, like, I don't know, like any one of these inventions or even like the germ theory, like there is some type of scientific method that's in place that then is able to deduce that germs are actually the cause of these illnesses and things like that. Like what would make it zero if there are things that preceded like technological. How did we figure out germs? Who figured out germs? Yeah. Who zeroed that up? Yeah. I mean, Lister was one. There's a few others at the time who were playing with it.

Huh. Yeah. Well, who Lister? Yeah. And then where was Listerine comes from? Yeah. Get out of here. Did not know. And, and then, and how did he zero that? Yeah. I don't know his exact methodology. You know, like sometimes like, you know, penicillin, the antibiotic. Yeah. You know, that was, that was a discovery of accident.

So it grew in a petri dish over the weekend. Do you know how that was discovered? Somebody was dancing in Brooklyn for like six hours, woke up the next morning, piss was on fire. Yeah, it's related to that. Yes, exactly, relatable. I'm sorry, I have to use a bath. Go, go, go. Okay, okay, okay. So penicillin is a zero, but like what Mark just said, it's based on some sort of scientific research, right?

So a cure to a disease, is that a zero? Like what is it? What was it? Smallpox. They found that there was another type of pox.

Yeah. They could get the pus from. Yeah, exactly. Is that a zero? The idea of taking disease. Or is that a one? Yeah. So there's a gradient, right? Like things that we'd say are more categorically zero. Then there's things that are ones and there's a sliding scale. Okay. So there's a little bit of a spectrum here. Yeah. Got it. We're looking for this finite zero never exists before. Maybe Einstein's was a theory of relativity. Is that zero? Yes.

Got it. Nothing else comes into play before at all like this. And for that reason, we're like, this is the most mind blowing thing we've ever seen. Exactly. Even though when it's applied right now, you're like, well, yeah, obviously. Exactly. Yeah. Obviously the ball's moving as fast as me if we're both on a train. Like the wheel would be a zero. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Because like in terms of just transportation, it has changed.

drastically just because we someone thought of hey let me just make a wheel and at the time it was probably just absolutely insane like yeah whereas we're much better at creating mechanical structures and these objects whereas then it probably just absurd so the idea is like to this point is zeros change reality

Zero and we humans have been the authors of zero up until this point. We discovered these things. Now AI is the author of zero. Exactly. So we humans are primarily a first principles thinking species. We do things slow, like incrementally. Zeros come along and crush our reality. And you want AI...

to be curating zeros that benefit us, not it. And not only, yeah, so basically AI is a zero manufacturer. And they can churn them out. Yes. Oh my gosh. So you take the things that AI has been doing, like protein folding, and then it basically solves, even when you say when it played the world champion of Go, right? It introduced moves in Go that stunned people.

Humans have been playing this game for thousands of years. Human genius has played this game for thousands of years. And they couldn't even conceptualize it. You give AlphaGo 100 hours to play itself, and it crushes the first principles way humans play Go and changes the game in that instant. So you're confident that we'll develop an AGI, like an artificial general intelligence? I'm confident. So I would be hesitant to short AGI.

Sure. The improvement of artificial intelligence. Of all the things that were short in existence, that's one I would probably not short off. I've heard that hypothetical kind of... Just real quick to bring Akash up to speed. AI is a zero manufacturing machine in that it just constantly can conjure up new zeros. So to the zero point and kind of like this idea I think that we're touching on of this general intelligence, I've heard it put this way that level one...

And the numbers might kind of throw this off, but like number one would be, could you create a computer or an AI that could beat the best person in chess? And we've blasted that for, I don't know, 30 years or something. Then level two would be, could the AI create a move that's never been done in chess? And all the times and all the ways that we play this game, can it invent a new way to play? And then the third iteration is, could this AI invent chess?

Like this idea of chess, and I'm assuming that this creation of chess would be the zero that we're talking about. That it creates, and again, I'm using chess as just an example, but create the form of the thing rather than playing within the rules of the thing in and of itself. Yeah, well said. Yeah, you're getting your head around the structure of invention, gameplay, rules, like yes, that's exactly the play space we're in. And that's the zero point.

And it's important, I guess, that we create alignment with the super intelligence. Yeah. The zeros to Andrews. Yeah. So now it's creating chess for us. That's great. It's like, I have a game you'll like even better than this. You like playing tennis. I have a better tennis. Right. It's called paddle. It's called paddle. Right. But like it basically can download our, every reactive fiber tissue in our brain and see what the most, uh,

What is that called when you have the positive feelings? It's... Serotonin? Yeah, the serotonin-inducing moments of a game and then curate a totally different game that just focuses on those. Oh, wow. Customized for you. Yeah. So now if you map where we've been. So first of all, I posed a question to you guys.

And you say, get the fuck out of my space. Yeah. Okay. Then we frame it from a new angle and we say, oh, you're right. Like we actually don't have everything figured out and we're probably going to change just like every other generation has changed before us. And then we say, okay, what's different about now? And we're saying, okay, AI is here and it's going to manufacture these zeros at speeds which are insane.

faster than we've ever had in our entire existence. And therefore, what do we know about reality anymore at all? So can we take any of the games we play now in terms of wealth accumulation, status seeking, power, all the games that we humans have agreed upon playing, we're all playing the games, do any of those games survive a continued introduction of zeros? When zeros are introduced, they have the power of scrambling human affairs.

And now if you say the dominant form of intelligence is no longer Homo sapiens, the dominant form of intelligence is artificial intelligence. It's the custodian of knowledge. It's the custodian. And it's interesting zeros at the same time. So we basically are no longer the custodians and we're playing in a zero principle reality. And so it's kind of a nightmare for most of our emotions because we love certainty. We want to know.

And we hate uncertainty. And we're getting hit on both fronts. Do you believe that all zeros possess objective good? That for every zero that's introduced, it should be embraced and accepted? That's a great question. I mean, so this is where I come back to don't die. Is that if in this situation, so that question presumes...

that I as a homo sapien have some kind of authority over an opinion about some kind of social or ethical norm. And maybe that's true, maybe it's not. But the observation here is that we're walking into a future that is so different from what we have now, maybe none of our priors are going to carry over. We think we're going to play the same game. We think we're the architects of this reality, but that may not be the case. And so if we say, if that is the moment...

What do we do as a species? You're saying hang on. That's it. Don't die. The only game we can play is hold on and don't die because we have no idea. So the games of acquiring wealth, power, success are no longer valuable because these new zeros that will be thrown into the system could completely throw out of whack our ambitions. Yes.

You could spend your life trying to be the greatest race car driver. And then next year, race car driving is obsolete because there's this new system that we all watch and we all care about. And nobody gives a fuck about driving an F1 car. But wouldn't that only be the case if humanity all agrees to adopt using AI in this manner? Because right now, the way people are using AI is just to

keep playing the games that we currently agree to play better. Yeah. So how as humans are we going to decide to use AI? Yeah, exactly. So that's the most important question to me is, so we build these really powerful forms of intelligence. And then what do we do? Do we become better at war? Do we become better at killing each other? Do we become better at getting social media followers? Do we become better at making money in the stock market? Like, where do you apply it?

And if you say in any reasonable timeframe, AI is, again, going to become a million to a billion plus times smarter than us. This idea that we retain control of the system, like we don't know what's going to happen. But to me, it seems like walking into this future with as much unknown as we have. I mean, you think about this, like every...

generation before us you're back at religion dude i know you you look back so go back to the centuries any human could be born and say submitting yourself to the ultimate power and it's a will of god or it could be it's a man we created god again this is the irony this is where we're at and so whether it's god or something else we just agreed to not die but if you

So like when I was going through this decade-long process of trying to figure out what to do, I was thinking, okay, so I just left my religion, which was like this idea. It was a really cool game to play. You play by the rules. You get this prize. I didn't believe it anymore. It's like, what do you do? And I thought, okay, well, I don't want to die. That's the only thing I know. I really appreciate existence and I want to keep on living.

So there's three things that you know, you were wildly depressed and you were suicidal post this is after after the after the warehouse Yeah, now you found joy you found love there's something worth living and you're like I want to ride this as long as I possibly can yeah, got it and like that the critical thing for My mind was telling me that I wanted to die, but I'm so happy. I didn't listen to my mind. I

And this got me to the issue of my experiment with Blueprint is I said, okay, so if we're walking into a zero-principle future, and I was starting to think about the biographies I read. So if you think back to early American colonies, there are 13 colonies.

They were in a situation where they were debating whether democracy was a good idea or whether they should stay with the monarch. And they said the monarch is strong and sturdy. We've had it for quite some time. Let's just do that. Half the population was like, no, no, no, we should really do the democracy thing. And people are like, that's insane. I'm not going to trust so-and-so. That's stupid. So Thomas Paine wrote this pamphlet, Common Sense, and he said, hey, guys, we really should do democracy. The monarch does not understand our problems. They don't understand local on the ground stuff.

And democracy went out. It was a new system of processing information with a bunch of humans. And so I said, can I create a new system with my body? So my mind is the monarch.

My body's organs is the democracy. So I started measuring every organ of my body to say, hey, heart, lungs, pancreas, liver, how are you? What do you need? What do you need? Yeah. So I switched my power systems from my mind to my body. And I said, you run the show because my mind is going to want to eat the ice cream and it's going to want to drink and it's going to want to stay up late. Your mind is indulgent.

It's a tyrant that will do anything to remain in power. How much are you still battling with your mind right now? I've got it. For the first time in my life, I've got it.

- Do you think you could have snacks in your house? - No, there's nothing in my house. - But could you? Do you have the discipline? - I don't trust my mind. - Okay, so you don't got it. - Okay. Fair point, fair point. But I guess like it's at least I know. - But you know that enough about your mind. - Yeah. - So you'll set up those, okay. - Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. So this is the thing. So you piece all these things together and say, okay, we're building intelligence. As a species, we're trying to decide what to do. I'm expressing opinions about reality. I can't control myself. Like, what do we do as a species? I try to basically become the existential problems facing humanity. And so I said, okay, I, Brian Johnson, am a collection of 35 trillion cells. That's me.

How do I align my 35 trillion cells with one objective? Don't die. That means I have to stop eating ice cream and junk food and I have to stop going to bed at late. Now, when you say mind, can you parse that between your reason and like sort of rational thought and your emotions? Which those things I think comprise the mind. And now we're kind of getting into like a consciousness discussion. But like those two things comprising the mind, quote unquote.

I oftentimes wonder if like your reason might say, oh, I shouldn't eat the ice cream, but it's your emotional state that might say, oh, I do want the ice cream. So when you say you're trying to override your mind, do you mean the emotion or the reason? Yeah, you bring up a great point. There's definitely nuance. I oversimplify for the purpose of conversation. What I focus on is when food is in front of me,

whatever food it is is generated by an algorithm based upon my organs not based upon how i feel or what i want or what i think sounds good it's an algorithm pulling data from my body looking at scientific evidence and feeding it in and so this is the same way where it was unthinkable that a monarch wouldn't run a nation-state and that a bunch of the body's organs would run in a democracy i did the same thing for me and i proved to myself

than an algorithm. I built an algorithm that takes better care of me than I can myself. - Yeah, yeah, because your mind is gonna wake up and be a little bit sad and go, you know what? I want pancakes for breakfast. - And you know what? Today's the day, like today's Saturday, it's gorgeous out. - Mm-hmm. - Yeah. - I should get some ice cream. - So do you ever satisfy the emotion? Does the emotion ever want anything?

And do you ever try to satisfy it in some way or like exercise? Or do you have less of those emotions? I do have less. Because you're actually feeding your body what it needs. Therefore, you desire those things less. You're less sad. You're less depressed. Yes. Fragrance for sugar probably go down. Yeah. When's the last time you went against the algorithm, a.k.a. a cheat day? Yeah.

It was years ago. My son and I went and did it together. We were curious about it. What'd you do? I had some fries. I had some chili cheese fries, I think, something like that. And? I felt so sick, I wanted to vomit.

The second you ate them or a little bit after? A little after. But during eating them? They felt disgusting to me. No way. Yeah, they did. So you can trick your body into rejecting these things that it actually doesn't want. And he gave me a chip and it tasted like gasoline. Like it just, it felt abhorrent. Not even saying this teasingly, the food you eat now to us doesn't seem like it tastes good. To you, does it taste good? This is the thing is, I know people, they view what I do

And they assume I'm miserable. They assume I'm in a cage of my own making. They assume the food is not good. I've never in my entire life been happier. I've never been more stable. I've never enjoyed food more. I have never in my entire life felt better. So you have kind of trained it. Was it like that always? As soon as you started eating this kind of food, chocolate covered mushrooms and whatever, was it like, oh, this tastes good? Or did you have to train your body, your mind, et cetera? A little bit of both.

Okay. Yeah. We could say it's the opposite. We trained our body to liking that type of food. Yeah, I take no... We evolved for years to not eat processed foods. And now we've accustomed ourselves to it. I see this as a return to what we should... What we've always eaten. Because when you've been on a diet for a long period of time, the food that is your diet food starts to taste a lot better. It's easier to eat. Like you'll...

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Okay, we're not done with this game yet. Yeah, we're the last turn. Okay, I want to make sure we stay on this game. Then I have a couple of questions. Okay, so the last turn of the conversation. So we've been at the mind revolts. We become introspective. We assess what's happening in the world that might change our reality. That then points to the initial question. If you had an algorithm that could give you the best physical, emotional, and spiritual health of your life,

Would you say yes to it? Now, in some ways, this is a question that measures your level of insanity. Why would you not want the best physical, mental, and spiritual health? Andrew, is your presumption you would do a better job with your freedom? Was that the premise of your argument, that you care about freedom more than anything in existence?

And do you think you can actually beat it? This is the question that shines the light on the early 21st century of how strongly we prioritize the perceived authority of our minds. So you think it's just my mind telling me that I want to use and exercise this freedom.

And my body in reality doesn't want that. It wants me to tap into this algorithm. Your brain is an evil dictator that's trying to, you know, dispossess your body from an enlightenment. You'll be back. Time will tell. I guess I'm curious about the, I don't know. I think there's some objections to the first and second question. The first is like,

Best is a subjective term. So obviously within the hypothetical, we have to accept that best is ultimately the objective best. But it's hard for us to subscribe to it. But what does it mean to quantify the best spiritual position? Better than what you have now.

Yeah. Yeah. That you would basically say like... Rooted in his life. We also have to... I guess why this is tricky is that we have to trust that what you say is the best would be the best for us. I think the tricky thing is that I think that I'm happier than you. Wow.

when I might not be. You could be 10 times happier than me. And that could be my dictator brain telling me I am. Sorry, what were you saying? To add to your point, for thousands of years, as far as I know, we have valued autonomy over everything, whether it's perceived or not. So democracy, the reason we accepted that, even though it's a zero-eth principle, it is further autonomy. The monarch is not a part of me. So we need a baseline for that happiness, right?

that is not just you. We need a brain interface that can measure it and tell us. Yeah. And if I trusted you as that, and I was sitting here and I'm like, wow, I'm like 10 points below Brian. And I'd really like to experience what that is like for Brian. Or if you could point to a day in my life and be like, see how happy you are now? You would be

This happy you would be your wedding day happy every single day if you did this if you could actually Give me an emotional state that I was gonna live within I think it'd be very easy to get me subscribe to algorithm wedding day happy Yeah, birth of baby happy every day Burning Man Molly Like it and that is conceivable to me because that is chemicals in your brain just kind of and now it's a real feeling and sensation that I can tap into and

I do think that there's a variable here that makes it difficult for me to immediately subscribe to the algorithm. And that is FOMO. I think that I would probably feel envious of my friends and family that got to do these things that I knew induced happiness and joy and like the camaraderie, you know, everything that I tried to do in my life is so collective, right? I like being around people, I like talking. And, uh,

If I had to be at bed every single night at this time, if all of us did it together, I think I could get on board. But if just I did it and I saw all my friends doing these other things, I think I would really miss out now. When they all died later and I was hanging out with my great, great, great, great, great grandkids, I wouldn't have FOMO.

- Yeah, I feel you, yeah. - So yeah, it's a really complex question. - What if the algorithm looks at your life and says, oh, having a child will induce this much stress for the next 10 years. And so in your interest, you shouldn't have a kid. It's like an inconceivable idea that you wouldn't wanna go through with this human experience, despite the algorithm telling you based off data that your cortisol is gonna go up X amount over the next 10 years. - Very well said. - What do you think about that, Brian? - This is the central question of our existence.

So once you size up how intelligence is progressing...

And once you realize that when algorithms do something, when technology does something better than we humans, we will squawk and complain, and then we adopt it ferociously. So the first time a telegraph sent a message, the Pony Express was dead. The first time you could navigate in your car with GPS, the maps are dead. So we have so much to say about everything.

but how much of it is truly durable over time. And so this is the thing is these algorithms, what I'm trying to show with Blueprint, just like Magellan said, you can now sell around the world or Shackleton did his adventure or Amelia Earhart said you can go across the Atlantic. I'm trying to show an algorithm does a better job at taking care of me, of being me than I can myself. Now, on top of that idea, there's thousands and thousands of questions, just like democracy. Democracy, we said, hey,

structurally it's a better system to have ourselves in this manner versus a monarch. Now we've been working on the question of democracy for 200 years. We still haven't solved it. The same thing is true with this. Like if you have an algorithm that can legit keep you alive and be better,

thousands of questions spring up and we're going to fight over every one of those things. But the observation is, can we be sober enough in this moment to realize what's happening? And so if you take the same problem, so I've been talking about don't die individually, but if you take me and replace me with planet earth, the same concept applies. So measure earth within million measurements, make earth as quantified as we can. And you say, what creates a biosphere appropriate for

Earth, you know, humans who inhabit this Earth. Don't tell me Greta Thunberg was right, dude. You're going to break my heart. So you do the same protocol. You measure, you look at scientific evidence, you create a protocol. That algorithm runs the biosphere of Earth to make sure it's home for us. Same concept. How can we...

How can we be sure that the scientific evidence isn't going to be skewed to benefit certain people or organizations? With you, I feel like it's very authentic because you bear the consequences of bad research. But once you get...

Big pharma involved. That's a great point. Once you get government agencies involved. Yeah, military industrial complex. I don't want to make this whole vaccine thing, but there's a stack of vaccines that just go in your kid immediately and people get paid off of that. And listen, I'm sure there's tons of benefit to this, but how can we trust the efficacy of those studies when we already know that these organizations have manipulated research to profit? Yeah. Yeah.

This is why I'm a broken record. Don't die is the only philosophy of the human race. So don't die for me was a process of measure everything, look at all the data, look at scientific evidence and be open about everything. It's a closed loop improvement system. Don't die has to stack throughout society because what you're talking about is different groups have different incentives. I'm talking about the food pyramid. I'm talking about all these other versions of

It's not don't die, but like their early versions of it, if you look at it, hey, this is the best way to eat. And now the food pyramid is completely inverted. Sorry to add to your point. God damn. This is exactly what he said. Talk about.

carbohydrates, he got upset. This is exactly what he said. Food pyramid, if we're just trusting everybody, the government just like apparently threw that together. There's no scientific backing for it. The grain industry is probably lobbying for it. But then for us as citizens, we're just trusting the government, the authority. So how do you kind of safeguard against this? Yeah. The algorithm has to be open. It has to be transparent. It has to go across every stack of every layer of society stack.

that we can't have these parts of society who have these secret motives that do certain things that cause people to die. That's the way we used to do things. - And how do we, like you said, how do we safeguard against that? Like what would you do, for example?

I would apply the same open scientific process as everything. It's got to be open. Is it like blockchain where everyone can see every transaction? You have to see it. Like democracy, you have to open it up. Now, still, in democracy, people still play games of, you know, like concealment. But you've got to open this up and build this tapestry of intelligence of don't die. Mm-hmm.

Don't die individually, don't kill the earth, don't kill each other. Is there anybody, and I can't believe I'm suggesting this, but is there anybody managing this? Is there any kind of process or people put, is there any board? Is there anybody that's gonna make sure that,

make sure of the efficacy of these studies and data? Or does the AI itself make sure of it? We've got to build these systems. I wrote a book about this and I present all these arguments. For example, like in a situation where, you know, you're the control condition. So the AI is trying to build traffic maps and it's going to send you down a street to find out if this is a good route or not.

Is that good for you or bad for you? On an individual basis, it's bad for you. It's complicated. So I agree with you. These questions are all... But you need the data on a collective basis, it's good. There's so many questions we have to sort, but we have to agree on something in society. Because right now, what we agree upon is making money, acquiring status, acquiring power. We agree upon those things. We all play these games. We don't agree and don't die.

And so I'm saying that it's the basis of society. It's what we agree upon that we're playing the game. That's the thing. Once we agree upon don't die as the game, then we will all be incentivized to give proper data, true data, because those people are also trying to not die. Why would they tarnish their data that's going to hurt? Collectivizing all information. And if someone tries to make you die...

they lose status. - Ah, 'cause status is built on your ability to contribute to us not dying. - Exactly. - Where now status is built on money. - Exactly. So if I'm serving you up- - We have to change the incentive structure. - We have to change everything. Yes. - This is good, this is good. So how do you change the incentive structure? First, you need to convince people that this is even possible.

Wow, this is a lot different conversation than I thought we were going to have. I thought you were trying to like break the 120-year mark. You really do not want to go, and you believe that that's possible. And I think you believe if we don't embrace this, humanity comes to an end. Yes. Okay, this is— Like quickly. Yes. Okay, okay, okay, okay.

Where were we just at? I don't want to miss what we were just at. You were in a good spot. I want to support you. We all got to think differently and change the incentive structure. How do you change the incentive structure? We have a very clear incentive structure in America. Make money at it. If you make money at it, it's good. You were very successful at this. You want to also change that incentive structure. Money is not...

The end. Don't die is the end. How do you get every single person in this country to submit themselves to that idea? So I think there's an interesting moment that's coming. Someone said that sometimes weeks of progress are made in decades and sometimes decades of progress are made in weeks. As AI progresses forward, it's going to create corresponding existential crisis for the human race.

Can you give us an example, a hypothetical, just throw one out there. Yeah, so chat GPT comes out and we all have to rethink, do screenwriters have a place in this world? Sora comes out and we say, do movie makers have a place in this world? And it seems sarcastic even to suggest, but...

You 100% believe that with the exponential growth of AI, literally just telling Soro, which is this new AI that, what is it? OpenAI came out with. It's basically, you just give it some prompts and it can provide you with video, whatever you want. Make me another Harry Potter movie and it will just do it instantaneously. You'll watch a two-hour Harry Potter movie.

And it will be, they will create, they will be better at Disney. They'll be better at Pixar. They'll be better than, they will be better at all.

at all things we humans do. And this is like, we're just getting started with AI. - So that's, I think the thing about people who come from the tech sector is, is that you're already on board with what AI can be. So there's no skepticism whatsoever. And I think the average citizen of the United States, no matter any country in the world, has like a little skepticism. They're like, oh yeah, this chat GPT thing was cool. And then they just go back to using Google.

It's done cool things, but it hasn't really replaced anything that they actually use or indulge in just yet. Yeah. We're still waiting for that moment. Once that moment happens, I think eyes light up. I think that's your, what did you call it? Zero. Yeah, maybe that's your zero moment. Your pendulum swing where the actual culture shifts. That's a good point.

It is the tipping, but we haven't hit a tipping point just yet. We've hit, oh, that's pretty cool that it can do that. And then people just go back to their normal behavior. Exactly right. But you guys, since you know the exponential growth of the AI, you believe it's coming without a shadow of a doubt. You've driven in a car and you know that buggies will be obsolete.

Exactly right. Exactly. It's, I mean, it's, again, it's very hard to short AI. Now, whether you want to say it's going to happen in two years or 10 years, 50 years, doesn't matter. For all intents and purposes, it's now. Can I ask, in your estimation, if we don't all adopt something similar to the way you view the world, how long does humanity have left? I mean, so we...

yeah park yeah so we acquired annihilate species level annihilation weapons in the 60s yeah we've been fortunate enough to only use it once twice right twice twice yes yeah one moment and we we've avoided a bunch of accidents you know like where like bombs have accidentally been dropped from planes and they should have gone off like so we've survived a few decades of having just these annihilation like we bioterror weapons which can wreak absolute havoc you know little teeny virus like shut the world down like we are so fragile

So we have existential risk from our own weapons. We have existential risk from our climate not being sustainable. That's a runaway problem. And we have existential risk from AI. Like, what will it be? Not that it's going to come and kill everything, but just like, you know, what does it do to society? So like, I think we're in this very precarious moment. Now, we've been here before. Like, we're okay. But it raises this question in the eve of this happening on, you know, this is...

what do we do as a species? And this is my decade-long question of what do I do? I wanted to become the existential problems facing the species. So if you say, okay, we have these three risks, what do you do about it? Well, I don't, I

I'm not in government, I'm not negotiating with countries, I can't do anything. Climate change, what do I, do I recycle my Amazon boxes? And then you say like other AI risk, I'm not engineering AI, so what do I do? So the majority of us just feel powerless. I wanted to become all three problems. And so I said, I, as an entity, I'm going to align my 35 trillion cells around one objective, don't die.

That means I have to do a new system of power where my organs run me. I have to accept zero's principle reality. I have to become planet Earth where there's an algorithm taking care of itself. And AI, you've got to align all intelligence around one objective. So basically, don't die. I'm vying for it to become the guiding philosophical structure for all intelligence in the early 21st century. It's what the 25th century says now.

That's what they figured out. They figured out that one thing and we all surrounded ourselves around this one thing we agree upon instead of- What happens to government?

This is like, you know, you come up with democracy in the 13 colonies and it's like, how do you solve blank? Like we have so many questions to solve if we could just lock in on the objective, the mission, the adventure. But locking on that mission or objective or adventure might put certain people that are in positions of power in a very vulnerable position.

Yes. And they might not like individuals like yourself. They might show you how quick you could die. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, there's, but that's like such a short-term game. Like I, I'm going to die from the most silly thing possible. And people are going to laugh at it. You're going to be a meme for a week. I'm going to be the best joke. I'm going to be the best joke.

i'm gonna get hit by it on a banana yeah like tap dancing slip on a banana that would be that it's just like the universe is irony my death is irony and like there's just no way around it you know it's just like

Thank you. There we go. We got you. You just said the most fundamental problem with AI and with using these algorithms, which is alignment. Yeah. I guess alignment and predictability. But I guess how would you answer that question of how do we align ourselves with this super intelligence? Therefore, it answers our question. Do you have a framework for how you approach that?

how it answers our existential questions. - Like how we make sure that the super intelligence is fighting for us and helping us exist for as long as possible and not- - Not fighting for itself. - Not fighting for itself. Like that question of alignment. - Yeah, we're still the engineers of this intelligence right now. But we're just- - Barely. - Barely, just barely. And this is why I think it's so urgent for us to say, what do we do with our new tools?

Because if we bring it up and we point it at warfare, that's a different training set. And if we train it up to do all of our games, like if we want AI to play all the games Homo sapiens have been playing, to me, it seems like a pretty difficult spot to navigate our way through that. But wouldn't it theoretically just find different games?

That's what I'm saying. This is still talking about an AI that is within our control that doesn't have a general intelligence. But if we're talking about this AGI, which ultimately to me is the zero maker, we will point it at war and the AGI will say war is not good. Yeah, that's silly. I won't participate in it. It'll be achieving like this higher super intelligence, which I think is ultimately what we're looking at.

So, you know, obviously the dystopian sci-fi version of this is, you know, humans are a cancer to Earth and potentially a cancer to AGI. So it's in AGI's best interest to get rid of us. That's what I fear. So, and that is the alignment problem that I don't know if anyone really has a solution to. So in your experience, do you have, have you heard like interesting theories or have you thought of like interesting ways that we can approach that problem specifically? Yeah, there's, yeah, there's a,

so much debate and discussion around this topic. I mean, like one interesting frame to put this in perspective, like just a side tangent, is AI will be so fast that we will appear like plants to it. Like that's how fast we move the species. We'll be frozen in time relative to its speed. And so when you're in that situation and when it's a million or a billion times smarter than you,

Our ability to model out anything about this thing is very challenging. Now, you may fill the air with words. Who knows? And this is why this moment right now is if we have any chance in continuing our existence, we should probably lock in right now as a species and say, "We're not going to die."

Like whatever the future holds, whatever, we're at least going to say yes and go for a ride. But it's silly to be playing our death games right now. It just misses the point. After 4.5 billion years on this planet, this is our moment. And we could be possibly the most spectacular existence in the galaxy. This is us, like right now. But yet we're so consumed with our silly games we play. And if we miss it,

Who knows what's going to happen? Maybe the AI saves us from ourselves. I don't know. But to me, it seems like we want to do everything we can to increase the probability of our thriving. Or it annihilates us, which violates the main principle, which I agree is don't die.

Yeah. So to me, it's kind of like a coin flip when you ask the first question, do you want this algorithm to dictate your life that you can't opt out of? Is it this algorithm is benefiting me or is it not? And your assumption is that it will be benefiting us and creating and making us into a splendid creation, which could be true, but simultaneously it could be annihilating us. And that would also violate the principle.

So to me, it's kind of like until we can answer that question, I don't think you can answer the hypothetical effectively. - Also, and this goes back to a question Mark was asking before, how much faith do we put in this algorithm? What if the algorithm says you'd be happier without kids? - Yeah. - Do we subscribe to that? - We are evolutionarily hardwired. - Would you subscribe? You already have kids.

Would you subscribe to that? - Yeah, this is definitely, it's a great question. So basically I can see your point that if you take my situation where I say I've given power to the algorithm on sleep and food and exercise, and you go up one more level to say mate selection, children decision-making, career selection, do you say yes to that? And I agree with you, it gets complicated. Now, my experience has been,

that my mind is a terrible predictor about what I will like and won't like.

And I learned this when I was depressed. My mind would deliver to me all the time, you should kill yourself. Yeah, interesting. And I learned through behavioral psychology that my mind is constantly at error. So like I've learned my entire life to not trust my mind, even though it tells me it's the most important thing in existence. It's always trying to remind me, I know more than anything else in existence. Trust me, I'll tell you what to do. I do not trust my mind. And so I am predisposed

to say yes, that I would go on this ride. So let's say it was before you had kids. Knowing everything that you know now, the joy, the pain, the struggle, but the amazing moments of raising your children, would you still trust the AI if it said don't do it? In the moment where we're transitioning from one to zero, I'm open. Holy shit, bro. Yeah. I mean, this is like, this is a...

- But acknowledge that I think right there, like if his bias is that, oh, my brain is a lunatic trying to kill me. If you can't trust your brain fundamentally, I understand how you would draw that conclusion. That makes a lot of sense. - And it's also, if you go back in time, I had my first child 21 years ago. AI was not around 21 years ago. We were not on the precipice of this ability, the super intelligence. So like I would occupy a world where a first principle thinking would guide my behavior.

Now we're in a zero land. So it's a different game you have to play. I think that's something that's missing in your marketing is the importance in AI in all of this. That's something I've really gleaned from this conversation. And I've watched a bunch of podcasts with you and obviously a lot of your videos. I don't think you do this without AI.

Am I correct in assuming that? Exactly right. Well, it's inevitable. So this is more of an experiment in AI than it is an experiment in eating vegetables. 100%. You nailed it. And the thing is... Yeah. And the boner talk is kind of like a red herring kind of. Like, it's a fun detail. And I'm actually really glad that we got away from that early. Like, once you mention AI, yeah, you're...

You're a tech entrepreneur that's experimenting with AI. Yes. And you're using that AI on you. Yes. Internally as opposed to... That's what this is. It's the entire thing. Oh, it's not puree and sometimes I eat the hard vegetables and I use the red light. It's singularity. It is singular fucking larity. I don't want to put those labels. It is. We talked about transhumanism before, but it's kind of touching that idea. This is what the experiment is. And it is...

I understand maybe the marketing has to be done in a way where it's digestible to people and they can take these little bites. They go, oh, how can I get my sleep better? I'm going to copy his sleep thing. But that's not what this is for you at all. No. This is your experimentation with artificial intelligence. It's the only way for robots to not kill us. Take us there. Yes. This is good. Exactly right. I have a question about the second hypothetical you posed, like people in the future looking back on us.

My other objection to that is I guess I'm skeptical that the progression of wisdom and knowledge of Homo sapiens has been purely linear.

That I think that there's been times where we've possessed a lot of knowledge and then as a species, it is sort of fragmented or gone away and sort of gone backwards and gone forwards and gone backwards. And even to your hypothesis, like we have these species annihilating weapons. We're assuming that in the 25th century that homo sapiens are here, assuming we don't blow ourselves up. Right. So I guess I'm curious, do you believe that there is a linear progression that the future people will have to

you know superior morals and ethics than we do right now how confident are you in that in that belief zero like i just i feel like i and we can say absolutely nothing about reality three months from now that's how big the wall of fog is we

This has never been the case. We know nothing. And this is very hard because we know everything. Like we, as a species, how fast are we, each one of us individually, to know everything all the time? And how eager are we to say we don't know? It just doesn't exist. It's not our vocabulary. So it's like, it pulls on our reflexes in such a hard way.

From what I'm hearing of what you're saying, though, if we don't adapt these principles, there will be no humans four centuries from now to even look back on us. Right. And even if, let's just say it's not don't die. Okay. So like AI is improving very fast. Some unknown speed is going to change reality some unknown way. Who else has a competing approach on reality? Who do we probe?

Who can pull up and say, I have a practical plan starting from what you eat for breakfast to how you engineer AI? Like full stack societal development. Yeah, no, in that regard, I think your pursuit is actually quite noble. Like the desire to be a quote-unquote guinea pig to this sort of like algorithmic role in your life. It's not guinea pig. You're the tipping point.

So what I was talking about before with what ChatGPT needs, like Sora, was it Sora or Soro? Sora. Sora doesn't need to show me a video of these mammoths walking in the snow. What Sora needs to do is make a new Ocean's Eleven movie starring George Clooney and Matt Damon and have it scripted perfectly and I watch it. And then all of a sudden my head explodes and I realize we're there and I'm all in. Mm-hmm.

You are the Ocean's Eleven movie made by the AI. If you can convince us that we don't have to accept decay-

Because to me, that is the zero moment. I am a four-year-old guy. I make jokes all the time about, I'm 40, I can't hang out, we can't play with these young whippersnappers anymore. I have submitted to the idea of decay to the point where it's just part of my jargon and I'm joking around about it. I am submitting to this idea that my body isn't what it used to be and it never will be what it used to be. And I'm eventually just gonna die. My dad, who has MCI,

makes these jokes all the time as well. Oh, the aging process is beautiful, but youth, why is it wasted on the young? So the sentence says all the time.

If you can prove that you don't have to decay, that's the tipping point for me where I go, oh shit, why am I making these jokes? Why don't I just get on this fucking algorithm and stop dying? How long does it take before he proves it to you? That's it though. That's the zero moment. I don't know if that's a zero moment, but that is the tipping point for culture and society. I agree. Because right now we do not believe that to be true. Just like we don't believe chat GPT can do anything really. I know it can, but it can't.

I don't need to see mammoths. I need to see a movie made immediately. Every time they do stand-up jokes, they suck. It doesn't do anything functional just yet. If you do it, bare minimum, we're on board with a version of it, a tier of it. How does a social paradigm change therefore if we adopt it? I'll slow my clock down. You've already seen these adaptations that people have made to their life. Rogan's been so influential in this. People are getting in the ice baths.

People are looking at inflammation. Like Americans who are known as like the fattest people on the planet all of a sudden are obsessed with health. It's been really cool to see. Obsessed with like health isn't

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Are you getting any pushback from the scientific community or even government? Because theoretically, AI is like an experimental drug and you just jump to human trials. Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. Yeah. The scientific community, they're conservative in nature. They're structured. They have very good insights and feedback. So I've had a great relationship with them. Obviously, some people criticize me. Others are very enthusiastic. So it's just a typical bell curve of response.

Many of the scientists are just like, let me out of my cage and let me go with you. And others are like, you're doing things wrong. So it's fine. Like just typical stuff. The thing that's interesting on this whole thing, like if you stitch this together, like, so what in my mind I've imagined is having come from the world of biographies and seeing people over the centuries do things. It typically is a person who does a given thing.

It changes the zeitgeist of humanity. It could be the smallest, the four-minute mile or whatever it is. Or the discovery of penicillin or of germs. We just need to see it to believe it. That's exactly what I was saying right there. For the chat, for you, we need to see it to believe it. So question for you about him. What would it take for him to prove to you? How long would that take for him to prove to you he's beaten aging, he's the guy we need to follow?

Because if he lives to 120, we're not trying to wait 74 years. To me, it's not the how long you live, because I don't think that people are envious of year 100 to year 120. I agree with you. To me, it's like...

I fell in love with this new sport and I know that my athletic ability isn't what it used to be. Yeah. Like I used to be able to dunk whenever I wanted in a basketball, not on people, but like if I'm on a fast break, it's easy. I'm not dunking anymore.

If you could tell me that there are certain things I can do and all of a sudden I can play this sport that I really love, at least where I am right now for another 30 years instead of another 15, hey, let's do it. I'm doing versions of this already. I do PT and I do workouts designed to keep my body in shape so I can play this thing. If there's other things I can do that don't sacrifice too much from my autonomy or the relationship I have with my wife and what we do,

I'm down. LeBron is showing you that right now. I think a lot of people have subscribed to that, right? A lot of athletes have gone, wow, I can increase my longevity. I can get another max contract. I can add 50, 70, 80 million dollars to my playing career if I just invest right now. But I don't see myself in LeBron. To be honest, I see myself more in you. You don't see yourself in a tall, big black man? Just the big one. But yeah, I need to see you

And how do you show specifically a lack of decay?

That's a tricky one. Because you can't prove a negative. Like if you go, let's say you can run a five minute mile now and you can continue doing that for 10 years. There's part of me that could go, well, yeah, maybe you could just do that for 10 years. Why is it this that's making you better or not? Like there's a woman who's 100 years old who smoked every single day of her life and then she dies. Would she have lived to 120 if she didn't smoke? You don't know.

So yeah, we have to figure out what that thing is. Yeah. I think I would need to see like your kids not adopting the blueprint and- Ooh. Yeah. You need to surpass them with everything. I'm trying to think of like the data points that I got from you that were most impactful. And there are two. One was you finding ways to grow back your hair. Yeah, you use the minoxidil that's inside all the things.

So if I just coughed it up to the minoxidil, I'd be like, okay, there's a pharmacological approach, right? I've been on Propecia or Finasteride or whatever it is for decades. But it was that stopped it from graying as well. Graying is what got me. Like those things I go, I didn't know that that was possible. And I tried to like find a workaround for how you did it. You're like, yeah, it's growing from the root. And I'm like, well, maybe he's dying his scalp. Like I'm trying to not believe you. Yeah.

So I'm trying to like reverse engineer this. How can I be convinced? What could I do that would convince me? Have you thought through this? I have, yeah. It's why, you know, it's in part why I've become more measured than any human in history. I'm trying to show all the data. Yeah. And basically putting it out like each person is going to have their own thing. So this is why I play around with erections.

That is an understandable thing for- It is, and hair. It's like you tap into the insecurity points, and if you can find some sort of cure for the insecurity points, we're convinced. Exactly. I did my thymus, which is your organ. It's right behind your chest here. It's responsible for your immune system. We did a therapy where I reversed my thymus age by seven years. Now, we're pretty soft on that because it's brand new. If we want to be truly scientific, we'll say, ah, here's all the disclaimers, but it was really impressive.

No one cares about thymus. No one cares. But we were so happy. No one cares. You talk about 18-year-old boners for a 46-year-old, instantaneously get it. That is a legitimate measurement. So that is not something we're just making up. It's not like some... So we hit, we talk about the thymus, we talk about the brain, the lungs. It's not low-hanging fruit.

We're talking about dozens of things. And then people like pick and choose what they like. It's the most digestible fruit. It's digestible fruit and it's emotional attachment. Like there's, yeah, every guy wants to be able to, it's delicious. Every guy wants to be able to satisfy their girl or the girl they haven't even met yet. And they want to do it to the best of their ability as long as they possibly can. And there's a huge pharmaceutical industry that's built around this.

You're saying that you've gotten your 18-year-old boners back. And these are Mormon boners, too. You weren't even fucking... These are good to go. The wind blows. Yeah.

Okay. And can you quickly take us through those steps and one, what the AI is telling you? Yeah. Like what is the data telling you is missing as you get older and then how you change that? Yeah. Because it must start with the AI, right? It starts or it starts with the data. Yeah, always data. Okay. Yeah, so we started off because we were systematically going through

the body, like measuring every organ. And so one day as a team, we were talking and I said, what would it take for me to have the most measured penis in the world? Like, what would you do? And so we went through the literature and we said, well, we can measure the penis with these 10 different things.

So, for example, I went to a clinic and I did max urination speed. So I drank as much water as I could until my bladder was about to explode. And yeah, then there's like a device and you're peeing as hard as you can. And you see your urine max speed, right? So that, you remember? It was 29 milliliters per second.

Oh, that's pretty good. But you gotta take that to a fair. I topped it up. It's a clown. I topped it up. Like you remember as kids, you know, like when you're like seven, eight, nine, you can stand like five feet away from the urinal and you're like, let's go. And so these kids

There's a speed. You can measure what is your speed and how is that related to age. I then got a shot in the penis that gave me an erection, and then they used ultrasound to measure penile blood flow. So you can see how much blood flow is getting to the penis and what ways you can quantify that. This would be max erection because the shot induced a max erection? Yeah. So you had like a base point? Yeah, just so I can see what is blood flow according to ultrasound in the penis. Oh, okay. You're just quantifying. Okay, but it's just a normal erection for your age? Yeah.

Yeah, we're just trying to find out where it's at. Like, what is the data for blood flow? Got it. So we're trying to say, like, how fast can I pee? What is the blood flow in my penis? I answered, I did, like, three different surveys on, like, erection hardness, penetrability. I scored perfectly, so I don't have any ED.

But we went through all these different measures. We did, we have this device that's gonna come that measures nerve sensitivity on the penis. So as you age, your nerves wear and tear and you lose sensitivity. So like on my heel, for example, I've got sensitivity of like four millimeters, like something like that. Because it's calloused, right? And then as you're 80-

you've got sensitivity of like this, because you feel less. And so on the tip of your penis is no different. You lose sensitivity when you're having intercourse. And so we went through all these measurements to say, where's my baseline as a penis? Because I'm 46 years old. And then we said, what can we do about it?

And so we did a few therapies. We did electroshockwave therapy. That's crazy. Crazy. Why shockwave? And you saying it hurt was where I was really like, I'm not. It's actually okay. Did you bring the machine here? Yes. I think Andrew wanted to test it. Pause, dog. Hold on. Hold on. The shock does what?

So it's used, the technology used to, over the entire body. So for example, people who tear an ACL, you can use a shockwave to rebuild the ACL after surgery. You can use it on knees. You can use it on shoulders. So is this the idea that you destroy the muscle and then the muscle fibers build it back up stronger? It's like working out. In an extreme. In very focused ways. Got it, got it, got it.

And so it's like, it was used for ED. So people who had erectile dysfunction, they were given six treatments. So it was a great study. And we said, even though I don't have ED, can I apply it to myself and will it enhance performance? So we did a few of those. And then I did Botox of 100 units in the penis. What part? It's towards the base of the shaft. Okay. Okay.

And then I... What was the purpose of that? Make it look prettier. It increases blood flow.

So it is also successfully used for ED. So we took those therapies and then I had baseline measurements for my nighttime erection. So there's this little cube, it's like a centimeter cubed, it has a little string and you wrap it around the shaft of your penis, you put it at the base and you go to bed and you start the timer. And then over the night, it measures the engorgement of the penis. And so as you become engorged and you become less engorged, engorged, so it measures the number of erections and the quality of the erection and the total time of erection.

So my baseline was two hours and 12 minutes. So 132 minutes. And then last week, last Sunday, I got 179 minutes post these therapies. Thanks, man. Which took me between 20 and 29 year olds. The average is 145. So I destroyed the average erectile nighttime duration. Now, nighttime erections, they are a significant indicator of cardiovascular, physiological and sexual health.

It's not just like you're getting boners and it's fun. It is a function of how well your body is running in its entirety. And so I showed you could measure the penis, you could do therapies to the penis, and you could improve the penis. Now, in that regard, you'd be like, interesting. Like, you know, like, because a lot of my friends have been messaging me like, I don't think I'm getting any erections. Like, I think they're gone.

Like I don't remember a time when I've woken up and I've had an erection. Like as a kid, you're always erect. And they're like, I don't know if it's happening. I don't find it ever. So it's a pretty big deal. And so in that regard, like, is that relatable? Yes. Like we all experience it on a day-to-day basis. We have a partner. Did you have shock therapy parties? Invite the boys over? Honestly, we should. That's honestly a great idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tonight. Tonight. Pull up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay.

Shock therapy, Botox, which of these did you find had the best results? And do you even measure for those variables? In other words, can you separate them? Yeah.

We were going to, and then the device we were using had some technical problems, and it went down for a few months. So I just got the brand-new device with the new redesign, because I wasn't able to measure it until last week. So at this point, we don't know which one of them is most effective. It has two hours of boners in it. Three hours of boners. Oh, shit. Oh, wow. Yeah. Goddamn. Okay. Okay.

Okay. The three-hour boner, that's the mark we got to hit. You're one minute ahead. Yeah. Okay. This is interesting. So you'll figure out which one of those things is actually most beneficial. Yeah. And then maybe it's all three or maybe you just use one of those. Yeah. And that is the process. And then once you lock in that, are you still experimenting and still adding more variables? Okay. So it's not for everything. It's a constant. Constant.

Okay. And are there experts in each field that essentially are being got? Exactly. Yeah. And I just did my, go ahead. Are they your full time or do they work on other people's stuff as well? Other stuff too.

Got it. Okay. What are the health lines slash longevity trends that you kind of laugh at based on your own research? Like ice baths, do those help? What are some of the things that are like really trendy? There's one that's big, no seed oils. I know you're big on EVOO, but like what are some of these things that are really trendy right now, whatever, that you're just like, there is no evidence to support this and it's really kind of dumb. Yeah. What we did that was unique is we went through all the scientific evidence.

And we ranked all of them according to the power laws. We graded the evidence. And then we did the power laws. And so if you walk down the power laws, we try to apply all those power laws into me. Once you get to a certain level of like level 100 on power law, there's thousands of potential therapies. It's like ice baths.

It may be great. I don't do it. It may be great. It's not that it's not without benefits. It just doesn't rank for a power law. And so because my life is so structured with all these routines and because of power law focus, we focus on the highest effect items. And so- Yep.

We got to get into this. Mastering the basics. And so like I don't do sauna. I don't do ice bath. It's not that they're not without benefits. It's just that they haven't qualified yet on the power laws for what we're doing. But we're absolutely open all the time to making changes to anything. Like we have no righteousness or agenda. We are absolutely after power law. What are the power laws?

The basics that you're familiar with. Don't smoke, don't drink, diet, sleep, exercise. Yep. And then avoiding that stuff. Selfishly, I'm going to ask a question for, I think all of us. He has insomnia. I have a horrible insomnia, but also I know you go to bed at 8 PM or 8 30, not feasible for us. We finish shows sometimes on weekends, 12 31 in the morning. Yeah. You have a schedule that's not conducive to 8 30. We're not necessarily just going to quit our dreams. What can we do? Yeah. So it's not that you have to go to bed at 8 30, just choose a bedtime schedule.

and be consistent. And so the biggest change for me is I rerouted my identity to be a professional sleeper. I think of myself that way. And I don't live, I don't sleep so I can live life. I live life so I can sleep. And when you flip that on its head, you will have a different conscious existence. You

you will be more alert, you will be more cogent, you will be more stable, your emotions will run your life less. There's no higher yield in existence for us as humans than sleep. - So what is it that you say you had perfect sleep scores? What does that feel like? How long does it take you to fall asleep? What does that mean? - Yeah, I have a three minute, my head hits a pillow and I'm asleep three minutes later. I have on average, I'm up around 34 minutes a night

That's what I call my WASO, my wake after sleep onset. It's age-based, so you can see that number and predict age. And then I have about two and a half hours of REM, two and a half hours deep. So I get eight hours and 34 minutes of sleep on average. And I wanted to show, I wanted to do like an Amelia Earhart or a four-minute mile. I demonstrated eight months of perfect sleep wearing Whoop, this device. And so it was 100% sleep score, and no one in history had ever done eight months of perfect sleep. And I thought, can you achieve high-quality sleep? So I did it.

And I think a lot of people thought it was impossible. The sleep was like this unknown thing. When you lay down, it's like, good luck. You don't know what's gonna happen. So I wanted to show it could be done. - It doesn't affect you if you're like traveling, like say if you're at a hotel and you don't have all the same conditions. - It does. - So, and that didn't disrupt your perfect sleep or did you stay at home during those months? - No, I traveled and I still was successful. So like what I found to be the power laws is eating earlier and less is better.

If I ate late, then I would have a poor sleep. Having a nighttime routine, so 30 to 60 minutes before you go to bed, be able to unwind and separate yourself from the day. If your head hits a pillow and you're still upset or you're thinking about solving a problem or whatever, you're gonna ruminate about it all night long.

being consistent every single night. So set your time, whatever it is. If it's one in the morning, just be consistent every night. And that's the same regardless of what time zone you're in. So it's 8 p.m. your time zone, wherever you are. I mean, here, I'm from LA, so I'm on New York time for four days. I'll just stay in LA.

LA time. LA time, yeah. But when we went to Singapore, my son and I went to Singapore, I acclimated to Singapore time. Okay, got it. But yeah, there's like a long list of things, not long, 10 things I do for my sleep.

If you nail those and you're reliably consistent, most people can dig themselves out of sleep problems. It's just like my hypothesis for you would be you potentially don't have insomnia. You just have habits that are contributing to insomnia. - Quite possible. - Now you may have insomnia. - I wouldn't argue with you. - Possibly, but if people just give a go at the basics just for a little bit, I promise you it will surprise you.

how good life feels. - So what do you say for someone, he's easy to convince, right? 'Cause he's coming from a deficit and he really, it affects, let me speak for you, but it really affects his life, you know? And it's amazing how he's able to function at such a high level given he's only getting a few hours of sleep sometimes. Someone like me, we're like, I can sleep pretty well. Like sometimes I get six hours, sometimes I get nine hours. Like it's, I don't see the benefits

of sleep that you're talking about and many other people are talking about. What are these benefits? Like for me, it's a hard motivator because I don't really see it as something that's affecting me that much. It might be, I don't even know. Maybe I'm not even getting great sleep. - Yeah. - But do you understand, like it's not like a problem that I need solved.

Whereas some of the other things, like if I want to play this sport for another 20 years, I'm like, well, what do I got to do? Where's my motivation to do something like that? And even further for him, as a new father, it's like, well, I can't sleep eight hours straight. That's just not an option right now. Yeah, I would go to the data. So when you deal with perception of the mind, it's very, very hard to know if you're looking at reality. So I'd start with the data. I'd look at your sleep data, your patterns, and I would look at your respiration rate, your heart rate. Get the whoop.

Look and see how deep I'm sleeping. And then if I'm feeling pretty good now, what you're saying is I could be feeling so much better. Yeah. And there's age markers. You can look at your sleep data and you can see where you're at in the age graph. You may be sleeping like a 55-year-old. You may be sleeping like a 30-year-old. Just find out. Now, if you're sleeping like a 25-year-old, like you just have a good genetic makeup and you're good, great.

But just look at the data. Let the data tell you where you're at because subjective experience is going to lead you astray. And you trust Whoop over Aura or any of the other? They're all great. I use it because I like the form factor. But yeah, Aura, the form factor. I like the wrist, yeah. But yeah, Aura, Garmin, Fitbit, Apple Watch. Just get one of them. They're all going to give you different data. Their algorithms are all different. But at least you have some data. Which one do you find to be

Are you going to come out with a piece like that? That seems like something that would be. No, it's not on our development path. There's good graphs out. There's good comparisons out there showing the accuracy of the various devices. So you can just check one of those. They have different accuracies on different things. Have you accounted for social interaction in this algorithm? I have. I would say that I... Like how important is friendship? Yeah. Is that a first principle? Yeah. I have...

better friends than I've had in my entire life right now. And that's probably because I was in a, like I was in a community of people before in a similar religion and or whatever. So we had, we were bonded to buy this community thing, but there were some constraints on how far and how deep we'd go with each other. And now the people I'm in life with, I'm just in. And so for me, I'm like at peak personal relationship time.

Peak personal relationship. Yeah, like I've never had a more fulfilling relationship structure in my life. And how important is that to not dying and longevity? Probably pretty important.

And is there a way to get data on that? Is there a way to calculate that? I mean, we're social human beings. We love being around each other. We love watching each other laugh, smile, cry. Like you see something cool happen on the street, you immediately look for another human being to see if they saw it as well. So you can have this beautiful moment where you connect. You do something cool in a sport, you look to make sure someone else saw it.

Connectivity is crucial. And I just wonder if there's some sort of metric where you can see the importance of that. Yeah, you could probably tease it out using a whole bunch of different markers. I mean, our social bonds are a power law for our longevity. Right? Yeah. Okay. So how do you... That's actually interesting. By doing these other things, it's put you in a position to build this community where you've had really strong or peak social relationships. Yes.

So this is people hanging out the best of each other all the time. True. So this thing has helped you develop those friends. But what would you say to the person who maybe it's a little bit more difficult for them to develop friendships, knowing how important it is for them to not die? What do you say to them that? Yeah, I empathize with them. Yeah. I'm introverted generally and it's hard. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, it's hard being human generally. Yeah. And especially hard when you're alone. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, what is, yeah. Why else are we living? Yeah. Yeah. But it's like, you know, like being the difficulty of being human is real. And I know we all put on very pretty faces for each other every day, but God, it's suffering is intense and on all different levels all the time. Are you familiar with Dr. Huberman's protocols? Yeah. Do you, did you adopt any of the things that his research pointed out or, you know, as far as your protocols and his protocols, do you find that there's any like misalignments?

I mean, I'm generally, I welcome anybody who's working on Don't Die, I celebrate. I'm not trying to jockey in the power games of my community. I just want

us to thrive in this part of the galaxy. That's really the objective. And so, yeah, it is. So I, I try to overcome, um, I'm trying to transcend my own proclivities to the games I was taught to be human of status and power and wealth and jealousy. And those are just negative emotions to detract from where I think we can become as a species. So I,

Yeah, I've tried to embody that. Just say all, like, let's just all go. But like specifically for nighttime, do you not use like light or use your phone or things like that? Or for like daytime, do you try to like line up the way you wake up, like with the sun or things like that? Yeah, like those are some of the more commonly known scientific principles. Like, yeah, nighttime, I

I do avoid screens. I wear blue-eyed blocking glasses in the morning. I do get light. So he's read some of the very similar studies we have. So there are some that qualify as good enough evidence that pretty much anyone in the community is doing. That's awesome. Yeah, you said you had like 10 things that would help you sleep. What are those 10? Or is it too long to- No, I can give you a few. I found if I eat late, it chews up my sleep. Yeah.

And if I eat the wrong food, it chews up my sleep. Yeah, same. Yeah. No alcohol. It kills my sleep. Wind down the team. If I go to bed and I'm aroused, like if I'm mad or if I'm upset or if I'm trying to solve a problem or whatever, then it carries over all night. It would ruin sleep. How do you not do that?

So I had this situation a couple years ago. I used to overeat every single night. Like in my dark days of depression and 7:00 p.m. would arrive and I'd call this guy. Also, I would overeat because I'd put the kids to bed, I was exhausted and just wanted to die. I knew my partner was on the couch like waiting for a fight and I was like, "Oh God, I just wanna be like the opossum." I wanna be like an opossum, lay down and pretend like I'm dead. And the only thought that would give me

what soothed my grief was the idea of food in the kitchen. And like, if I could just

eat myself into oblivion and so i was 60 pounds heavier than i am now oh wow and i couldn't stop myself from that behavior every day i'd wake up and be like last day i'm exercising and i'm gonna eat out well all day and then 7 p.m would come like just disaster i get that so then like one day out of desperation i couldn't buckle my pants because it was too tight you know it's just like it felt so uncomfortable and i said evening brian you're fired like i

you make my life miserable, you're done. And so it was the first time in my life where I separated myself from my behavior. And it was this joke. I was like, that's kind of a silly concept. And then I listed out like, who is Evening Brian? What are his characteristics? What arguments does he use? Like today's the last day, tomorrow we're gonna work out really hard. He's very clever. And I just made a rule from 5 p.m. to 10 p.m., Evening Brian cannot eat. Like he, under no circumstance can he eat.

And that solved it for me. And so then at nighttime, I say, sleep Brian is in charge. So when sleep Brian, 30 minutes before bedtime, he's in charge. So any incoming thought of like, this problem is major and it's gonna cause a crisis or like, you feel really bad about this interaction. Say, you wish you wouldn't have said that.

The sleeper says, thank you for that observation. We are now in sleep mode. So we can think about that tomorrow. We have all day to think about that problem. Right now, we're going to focus on priority sleep. So it's a way for me, the trick I learned when I was depressed, when my mind said, you should commit suicide. I learned that that was not me. It was my mind suggesting things when I said, thank you, mind, for that suggestion. I'm now not going to listen to you.

So it's a way for you to take a meditative practice to filter out life that otherwise you're, you're unknowingly ruled by your mind, which is just chaotic. And it's spewing all day long, all the reasons why you should hate yourself and kill yourself and not love yourself. It's really quite difficult. I've heard people do this with like anxiety a lot.

like labeling their anxiety or even giving it a name. And then when they hear the anxious thought, like, oh, you're not good enough, you're gonna fail in the future, they're able to identify it as like, okay, that's insert name. Like, that's not me. That's a different thing in my brain that's trying to detract. That's a really smart approach to even just optimizing little things in your life, like sleep and stuff. Yeah, that's cool. You stop eating at 11 a.m. Wakes up at 4.30, right? So from 11 to 8.30, right?

At what point does the hunger start to set in? Because you have to get hungry, right? You don't just get used to not eating. I'm kind of used to it. Really? Yeah. Yeah. It burned me up for a while and now I'm pretty used to it. Used to it meaning the sensation of hunger has become normal and now it's your kind of like baseline. I'm more satiated and less hungry now. Before I was like excruciatingly hungry and now I'm pretty satiated. Okay. And this is part of, I think the same question.

Are you concerned about working out too much because it would increase your caloric intake? Yeah. Which would offset these other markers? So we've had the same question. I'm caloric restricted.

and I exercise an hour a day, and I'm vegan, and I'm on low protein, so I'm at 110 grams of protein a day. Those are all no-no's. - Yeah, that's right. - Yet, according to MRI, my body fat and muscle are the top 99.5 percentile. My cardiovascular ability is the top 1.5 percent of 18 year olds.

My speed of aging is among the lowest in the world. So according to all the data we can get, my bone mineral density is the top 99.8 percentile of 30 year olds, which is age min for the test. So by all the data we can see, it seems to be okay. And if there's problems, we haven't yet found it. Again, we're always open to being wrong, but right now the data looks pristine on every measure we're looking at.

Hmm. Are there any variables that you are accounting for pharmacologically? For example, blood pressure or you want to stat in like are there any traditional methods that you take? Maybe you don't have blood. What is it blood pressure problems? Yeah, you're just taking them. Yeah as a preventive measure. Yeah. Yeah, I'm on actually so we love drugs Okay, this is good. Okay drugs. Yeah, what everything yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I so I um, I

I went hiking and I hurt my shin and I had to go to an emergency room and get it stitched up. So I went in there and the doctor came down. He's like, all right, son, we'll get you stitched up.

before i do so are you on any any meds oh my god oh no so like all right what the hell i'll try i'll give it a go i said well yeah i'm on metformin he said the drug they give to diabetics yes i'm on rapamycin the drug they give to people who are doing organ transplantation yes i'm on the statinib the leukemia drug yes it's a good lord son what's going on yeah but it was just i it was such a sobering moment for me to

like how far we had gone in and how disconnected we were from standard of care. So yeah, so for blood, so yeah, I'm on metformin. I do 1500 milligrams a day. I do a carbose 400 milligrams a day. What's a carbose? It's like a blood sugar or blood sugar,

Same as Metformin. Yeah, I do Metformin. Yeah, we do Metformin for polyps prevention. But a lot of people don't take Metformin because they're worried about reduction of exercise gains. That kind of gained some popularity. If it did, all my exercise and fitness markers are at the top decile of performance. So fine if there's a cost for paying that. Then I do Rapamycin.

Maybe you've heard we do a pretty aggressive protocol on that. And like, for example, the interrapamycin, it's a drug discovered just recently. And it's really promising in terms of how it extends. The metformin-rapamycin combo was the 10th most powerful longevity study, extending lifespan by 20%. Yeah, there's a...

What is it? Atiya? Is that how you pronounce his name? I think he's a big... Peter Atiya. Yeah, Peter Atiya has been talking a lot about rapamycin. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So rap is a big one. So on that one, it's a drug that... So we've been measuring the half-life. So once you take it,

You have a C-max where it peaks in the blood and then it slowly decays through its half-life. So we take the dose and we measure my blood two hours after 24, 48, 72, and 96, and we watch through the decay curve. So we do it all these drugs. We try to measure it as extensively as possible to figure out what a dose to take and why. And so I'm currently on a dose where I do 13 milligrams of rapamycin on week zero, nine week one,

week two, et cetera. So I wrote it between 13 and nine milligrams per week. Not asking you to be a snitch on your doctor dealer, but how are you getting all these prescription drugs without having the medical necessities for these prescription drugs? Yeah. So they can be RX by any doctor. It's just a question, will the doctor do it? And he's willing to take that risk. Yeah, exactly. Because the doctor will, they may not be familiar with it. They may feel like it's going to endanger their license.

So it's not a commonplace thing and you have to dig into the literature to see it's actually... Sorry, one prescription drug everybody should try to take for longevity, quality of life, anything you think. Or two. It feels like you need to take a few to offset the side effects, right?

It's so hard. I guess I've learned enough about this to say it depends. Your age, your circumstances, your health profile, it's nuanced. Okay. Fair.

So there's not just one catch-all for everybody. It's really the power laws. As much as they're not sexy, sleep, diet, exercise, that's not what people wanna hear. And stopping bad stuff. Like sometimes stopping the bad stuff. People want to do good things because it's an easy thing to do. Like if you buy...

A bottle of pills, you pop it. When you have to stop eating a pint of ice cream every night, that's hard. So Moshe. How do you feel about Ozempic that's helping people stop the cravings for the bad stuff? So this is the question. If you had access to an algorithm that could, Ozempic is an algorithm. It turns off your hunger. And so this is the question. When we humans hear this question, we're like, fuck no. No.

when it helps us do something we want we're like yeah and it happens so fast we don't even think about it so zenbic is a good example of you assemble a few molecules you swallow it magic happens and we're going to have because ai is now the primary drug designer

we're gonna have fantastic drugs. Yeah. You did say there was something that was even more effective than Ozempic that's natural though, which is EVOO, right? Yeah. Can you explain that a little bit? Yeah, I was doing that a little bit tongue in cheek. Extra virgin olive oil. Yeah. Yeah, we call it snake oil. Yes. But you're pushing this stuff. You said that was the one thing that you would recommend to anybody. Yeah.

Yeah. So we went through my daily calories. I have 2250 calories every day. And we had a rule where we said, every calorie has to fight for its life. If it doesn't do something to the body, it's out. There's nothing that's cool or trendy or it can't be on taste. It has to give the body the ideal outcome.

And so, yeah, extra virgin olive oil is 15% of my daily calories. It has a bigger spot out of any caloric intake I have of any food. Wow. And so we had a problem because we, but it has to be of a very specific type. It has to be six criteria. Most extra virgin olive oil in the world does not hit it. It's lower quality or has other oils. And so we had this big problem of trying to solve high quality oil. And so we started sourcing it for ourselves. Then friends and family were like, I want some too. We're like,

Okay. So yeah, we did a brand. And so I basically sell it at cost. So that was my question. This is not a money-making thing. Yes. It's so low. We're basically getting out at no cost. Is that your intention with Mo? Because you have, I checked your website, you have products coming. You got protein bars. You got, is it all going to be around cost for us? We're very close. Yeah. Our margins, I've tried to be as low

EVO is like basically no profit. The other prices will be – other margins will be a bit higher, but just enough to let us operate as a company. This is genuinely trying to – we're trying to – the objective is don't die, not to make a bunch of money. Yeah. And the mode of delivery for olive oil, do you just drink it or do you use it as an actual dressing? Either. Really? Yeah. Hmm.

I do, yeah, three tablespoons a day. I do one with each meal. Like interesting data on extra virgin olive oils. When you eat, it causes your body damage. So it's just an unavoidable thing. Eat food causes aging damage.

And so Evo will lower blood sugar response, it lowers oxidized LDL, it lowers LDL. So it lessens damage that happens in the body. And then it's shown to be positive for mood and for weight and for blood pressure and for arterial. Like what happens when you have oxidized LDL is it builds up arterial plaques and plaque in arteries is very bad.

And so it eliminates the oxidized LDL. And so it has so many positive benefits over whole body. And so I jokingly said, like tongue in cheek, extra virgin olive oil is more powerful than NR, cold plunge, sauna, Ozembic, and your favorite podcast. And I was like, I was kind of fucking around. But kind of not. But kind of not. It's kind of like we talk about all this stuff, but if you follow the evidence...

You know, like it's a pretty solid food that everyone should just have in their diet as a staple. Interesting. Okay. AI is going to be, you said AI is already designing all of our drugs or designing drugs, right? Yeah. Where does that go? What drugs are we going to get in the very near future from AI? So now we have the ability to engineer atoms and molecules and biological systems. Okay. Yeah.

we have the ability to engineer digital reality. We've just entered the ability to engineer all of reality. Now we can't, this is the thing, that's the moment we're at. So we can put things on our eyes. Just explain that one more time. So we have digital reality, we got that. But now if you can engineer atoms and molecules, you can make whatever you want. This is the thing, we have- It's insane. It's like an absolute explosion of-

Explain that to it because you know where this could go because you're –

I don't know if it's a futurist or you've already subscribed, you know the power of AI. Again, there are so many people right now that are still just skeptical. They don't get it yet. It's almost like Facebook first coming out. What is this for? So just break it down for us. When you say we can engineer atoms and molecules, where does your brain go with that? What are we making exactly? - Okay, so here's an example. If you were to ask somebody a thousand years ago, how big is reality?

They would say, "Well, they kind of see, they feel, they touch." You use your senses to determine reality. And then we discovered there's this thing called the electromagnetic spectrum. It's like a trillion times bigger than what we can see with our eyes. And we've just discovered more and more of reality. And so reality is like orders of magnitude bigger than we ever thought possible. So now you take this basic question, what are the possible conscious states we could have?

So we're born and we say, well, we know what happiness feels like and sadness. I know what it feels like to get hurt and skin my knee. I know what it feels like to fall in love. I know what it feels like to get drunk. And then you could do psychedelics. You're like, that's a different experience. So we start to sample like what is roughly the size of consciousness. And we have in our minds like this rough idea. Now you apply AI and you apply the ability to engineer atoms, molecules, and organisms together.

How big is consciousness? Is it a trillion times bigger than what we realize? Like as other things have followed in the past where we have caught this very narrow glimpse. And so this is why it's so exciting of Don't Die is we have a hard time letting go of things in the past. Like we love our games of wealth and status and power. Like they're familiar, we're winning at them, like whatever.

to jump, it's like being on monkey bars. You want to let go of one bar to swing to the next to grab it. But if you can't see it, you don't want to swing. We can't see it. So we don't know what we want to swing. But if we have, you know, I've been investing in this for 15 years now, when you can take an atom and build them like Legos, when you can design a biological system to do a given thing, when you can design digital reality and you can do the full stack. What do we get? Just tell me what I'm looking at. Okay. It could be, yeah,

Like it could be a situation where not only do you not age, but you acquire superhuman abilities. So like dunking would be whatever. How would I acquire that? Let's just say... What do you do with those atoms and molecules? Are you shooting them in me and make me a black? I still can't dunk. I don't know.

- Okay, so let's just say what you have to deal with is your joint strength, your muscles. We have to just deal with your physiology, right? So let's just say we've got a few gene therapies that we would utilize. Yeah, just like a few therapies. And now you've got the joints and the muscles

To dunk and not just dunk on a 10 foot rim, but you know, like 20 foot rim, whatever. Like there's, you're augmenting, you're augmenting my body based on these molecular structures that you're building outside of me to give me whatever power superpower that I want. Fuck. There's a zero sports done. So here's an example. If you can pull this up, have you seen the full of that and dog?

- Okay. - What was it? - Type in full of statin dog or full of statin cow. - How do you spell it? - F-O-L-L. - You did full of statin, right? - I did. I just did my first gene therapy.

Yeah. We need to talk about, okay. Do you want to tell us before you tell us about this dog? Let's take a picture. Pull up the cow, go down, second one in from the left. So that cow has similar effects to the gene therapy I just did. That's real? Yeah. And you can do a full satin dog, you'll see one too.

i mean that doesn't look particularly healthy right it looks like the most healthy cow i've ever seen in my life and that cow's not working out right it's not like it's just walking around oh that's muscle yeah yeah yeah exactly it's muscle yeah go type in a full assent dog this thing's about to look sick so yeah i just did this gene therapy what in the yeah

Oh my God. That's just a hood pit bull. Yeah. Okay. So this therapy ranks number seven as all-time best performing lifespan study. It's over 30% in mice. And so I got the injection in September. I got two injections in my abdomen. This is in the adipose tissue.

And it inhibits myostatin, but I didn't do it to do that, even though it has effects on muscle growth. I did it because it has potential effects in slowing speed of aging, reducing epigenetic age, potential, like all whole body benefits. So I'm measuring, I'm doing my first set of measurements next month, whole body, increase the telomeres, a whole bunch of stuff.

We studied gene therapy for three years and we didn't do it because we couldn't find any safe gene therapies. Because once you do a gene therapy, it starts doing its thing in your body. If you don't like it, you can't stop it. And when that happens, that's cancer.

And so this therapy is a plasmid mediated gene therapy. So you have a kill switch. So if you don't like it, you take tetracycline, it kills it, it's done. And so it's safer. This is the issue with the peptides, right? Is if you're increasing cell growth and those cells are in some way negative or they're cancerous, you're kind of fucking yourself over. Always a give and take. So folistatin, there is a kill switch. With this therapy. So it's delivered via a plasmid and the protein just sets up shop in the nucleus.

And so it has increased muscle. So the delivery system is the kill switch, not the actual protein that you're delivering to the body. Yeah, exactly. The kill switch will kill the protein expressing itself inside the nucleus and the plasma just gets it there. But the cool thing is like you can do sleep, diet, exercise, you can get a few extra years in life, great, cool. But what you're talking about is like, tell me why to be pumped about this. It's coming. And

And so now we're getting these vectors. Yes. Like, you know, can I get a gene? Fuck you, genetics. Can I get a gene therapy for sleep? Yes. Like the whole thing opens up. I mean, theoretically, even if your diet sounds boring or you could just rearrange this super healthy food to taste like a chocolate brownie or whatever the fuck. This is the thing. Like, this is it, guys. Like, this is why we don't want to die. Oh, wait a minute. You're saying, holy shit. You could...

You can use gene therapy to make everything that you eat taste like the best thing you've ever had. Or maybe not gene therapy, but AI could do it if it can rearrange molecules, right? Ozembek. Reality is its own thing. It plays with reality however we want it to play with reality ideally. Ozembek changes your brain so you don't have hunger.

It just turns it off. Aren't there side effects to Ozempic? Like your fucking stomach aches or something? So I am not advocating for Ozempic. I'm just making the observation that it's happening. Now, like there's some serious potential side effects. Like it may be a disastrous idea. Like we don't know yet. I am not doing Ozempic. I wouldn't do it personally. But then again, I'm not 350 pounds and like really struggling. So like I'm sympathetic to where people are at and I'm not criticizing or judging. It's just like it's there. It's happening.

But yeah, this is why this is so exciting that... And we're like, how many years off from this? We're here. I just did it. I just did my gene therapy. I took my dad there to do it. It's in Honduras off the island in this special economic zone, Prospera. It's called Prospera. My dad is 71. His calculated life expectancy is 68.

So these models of lifespan are very good. He included his time of obesity in life, his hard drug usage. It calculates 68. So he's past due. There's a lot of people in that situation in life. And so I've been on project, you know, don't let dad die. So I gave him a leader of my plasma. I took him to the gene therapy. I'm taking him next month to do mesenchymal stem cells in the Bahamas.

So like, I think it's a really cool thing of like, what can we do in society to not die? Everyone. It's not like, you know, my dad is fighting for life. He's raging against death. I think it's amazing. It seems like a lot of Project Don't Die is actually Project Don't Let Dad Die from what I've heard about, from what I've heard of you in other interviews. Probably. Yeah. Which is noble. I'm not judging that at all. If there was a Don't Let Mom Die and I had a much smarter brain, I would be all over it. Yeah. So,

This is wild. The stem cells, what is he doing them for? Yeah, so in the Bahamas, there's a company called Cellco Labs. They do young Swedish bone marrow. This is why people think I'm just so crazy, right? Swedish bone marrow is the weirdest part. I'm just catching myself here. Why Swedish? He just said bone marrow would be totally fine. You got real specific. I say it because it's a company in Sweden. They're good at science.

They are structured. They're methodical. They do things at clinical grade. So we looked at doing stem cells for a long time, but you don't want to mess with stem cells. So they met our criteria for safety. And so I did an infusion of 100 million of those in, let's see, November. Where'd you get them infused? The Bahamas. No, no, in your body. Oh, just the vein. Oh, I thought stem cells go to like a certain part, a problem area. Okay. So yeah, in March, so I guess in a month from now, I'm doing the world's first whole body infusion

rejuvenation with mesenchymal stem cells. I just completed MRIs of every joint in my body and I'm going to get mesenchymal stem cells injected in every single joint so that I can play pickleball. We need to get you on paddle, bro.

You gotta go. You gotta go. Now that you have the joints, you should absolutely stop playing Pinkle. You play Pidel with the boys. If you beat his ass, he's gonna do all the protocols. That's true. That's the tipping point. Rip your shirt off afterward and he's in. That's the tipping point. Okay, so you're gonna get every single joint done. And can you tell me why we have to be concerned about some stem cells? Yeah, because they can lead to uncontrolled growth.

Why? You're just getting them from shady places. Yeah. You just like, you want to have quality controls around where they're from, how they're manufactured. Got it. You just don't want to be, have a friend with a hookup with stem cells. Stop. Yeah. Don't play games with the stem cells. Yeah. Got it. Yeah. Any of these advanced therapies, like you really don't want to play games. And then we hear a lot about stem cells. What is it that they actually do in the body? They're representing a more youthful state.

They do the job of a more youthful state. So they rejuvenize the joints or they replace? They rejuvenate. And how can you turn the clock back on the joint? Yeah. So that's what I, our objective is to get me to 18 year old joints.

Now that is, I think it's kind of a ridiculous idea. I don't know if it's practically possible, but that's our objective. And so we're wondering- Yet, it's not practically possible. Yeah, but like, why not? Like, why can't we set that goal? And can we try to give a go at this thing? But you need to like rebuild everything because you lose bone over time. Like your body just deteriorates over time. You're trying to reverse that. And so we're trying to figure out to see what we can do. Are you worried about microplastics?

We are mindful of them, yes. So I built this blueprint food stack where we build a bunch of products. We're trying to be the most nutritious food protocol in history. So food in our society is very dirty. And I've become painfully aware of how dirty it is. What do you mean by dirty? If you look at the testing profile of what's in it,

You mean it's just filled with horrible ingredients, right? Yeah, it's just like... Is American food the most poisonous in the world? I don't know. The testing we've done... Developed. I've become acutely aware of this because we test our own foods. No one tests first. Yeah. And then when you do test, you're eating shit that you assume. You pull up, it's like...

someone's got me, right? Nope. Exactly. That has been terrifying. It is like, the shit is slipping through. That's my concern with like, or maybe it's why your system needs to be open and why it needs to be constantly verified because

we could fall into the same trap that we're in with food. Like all this health food is actually horrible for us, right? So how do we make sure that the algorithm doesn't get manipulated for the benefit of some people? Anyway, but go back to what you were saying. So even good foods, you'll test and be like, good foods, quote unquote, but like whole foods that are grown from a garden or something like that. Are you noticing like, oh wow, even these have like bad traces in them? Like we, for example, we're building a product called Super Veggie.

And so it's just basically how do you get someone a clinically relevant dose, like three to six servings a day of veggies, and we put it together in a powder. So we start sourcing these powders like broccoli and cauliflower and carrot, and we get them and we look at the heavy metal and it'd be shockingly high. Yeah. And so we had to go back to the supplier and say, you know, are you aware of the situation? This is really terrible. So just even in us sourcing from the private supply chain. And what do they say?

It's a wide range of responses. Sometimes they don't know. Sometimes they need to retest. So it's not like, again, the presumption is someone's got me.

Systems are in place that are controlled. That's not the case. And so we've learned a whole lot. We actually did a 10,000 run of a product. We found it high in lead and had to scrap the entire 10,000 run. Oh, no. Yeah, because we didn't verify soon enough. We took the vendor specs and said, great. We didn't verify before purchase. So we're learning a ton of stuff. How do you get the cleanest possible supply? Then we're also starting to publish our testing to say, here's what the batch looks like.

Even with our olive oil, we publish a COA to say, here's what the pesticide profile looks like. Here's what the heavy metals look like. I do also think it's important branding-wise that people know you're not making any, you personally aren't making any profit on this. It just goes right back in. Because that makes it all that much more trustworthy to me. Because I would look at you and be like, maybe he's just doing all this shit so he can just make billions again down the road with supplements and olive oils. So it's cool to know that you're not really profiting on them. Yeah. Where are you sourcing your food that you can do? All over the world.

Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. We have 130 or so ingredients we're sourcing. So how do you eat when you're here? Like you're on the road, you're traveling. I assume you're staying in like a hotel or something. I'm not sure. Where do you eat and how do you eat? Yeah, I brought all my blueprint food with me. Powder form? Yeah.

I'm curious about that. I've heard from people, I don't know anything about this, but smoothies, for example, strip the fiber from the nutritious elements of the actual fruits and things. And I've heard from people that say, oh, you actually need the fiber in conjunction with the nutrients. Is that true or is that not true? I mean, we think that... We have a powder-based veggie product we're building. We think it's competitive with whole foods. And so you...

vegetables and fruits are mostly water. If you take away the water, you keep the same nutritional content. And in many ways with the powdered foods, if you have the right supply chain, you control for quality.

So you know exactly what you're getting versus if you have real foods like that may be not prepared correctly or may have certain pesticides on it. So it's not that it's powder is worse for you, for us it's a toss up. And so I'm on it myself to see what happens. We want to see with my body when I'm doing this. So I'll probably, so I have blueprint foods. I'll probably, if I go out, I have a dinner later with people. So I'll break my routine if I'm going out with friends

I'll want to socialize and be okay. If I have an empty plate, nobody can talk about anything except for why I have an empty plate. And I don't want that to happen because everyone's there to socialize and say what they want to talk about. So I'll get some steamed vegetables or a salad just so I have food and I'll kind of pick away at it.

But I tried to do social norm compliance like, "Hey, everyone, we're cool. We're fine. We can focus on having fun together. It's all, you know, make our jokes." It's actually an important thing to include in the blueprint. Yeah. How you can look normal. Yes. While trying to not die. That is the most important thing.

Because as we were talking about earlier, like socialization is crucial. Yeah. And if you put yourself in a position where you're trying to not die, but you've completely excommunicated yourself from all your friends, like that's going to hurt you as well. And you're all your scores and everything are going to go down. So, yeah, if it does mean, hey, if you're at a restaurant, just order this salad. Yeah. This is going to affect your macros or however you calculate stuff in the smallest way. That is so important. Yes. Yeah.

It's like why O'Doul's exists. You don't want to have to explain or you want to feel like you're one of the people. Or the soda with lime. Soda with lime. Soda party soda with lime. You're drinking it. Nobody's even asking the question. What about a relationship? Can you be with someone who's not on Blueprint? Boy, that's complicated. Yeah.

Yeah, I made this joke. You've created a new Mormonism. Only way you can be our friends, only way we can date is if you subscribe to all these rules. Wow. Okay, go on now. Yeah. I mean, how do I even answer this? Like, I guess, yeah, I think I'm kind of a statistical anomaly in terms of like my behaviors and the way I think, the way I behave.

And then if you say, what's the number of people that match up with that behavioral profile? It's small. And so it's a complicated question. I don't know. Yeah, that's tricky. What about caffeine? Do you have any room for caffeine in the protocol? I don't. I mean, caffeine is fine. I just find that it makes me go on a roller coaster and I get addicted to it pretty quickly. Oh, really? So if someone was on the protocol and they were like, hey, can I have a coffee in the morning? Great. Really? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I...

I'm really like, this is just measure. Measure and do what's good for you, but go to bed whenever you want, drink caffeine if you want, eat meat if you want. Adhere to the data, though. If the data is showing you have this wonky mood shift throughout the day, then go, okay, maybe caffeine isn't a thing for me. Creatine? Yeah, 2.5 milligrams a day, or 2.5 grams a day. Yeah, some people go up to 5 or even higher.

- What about, I know you said no alcohol, but what if the data shows the one glass of red wine is beneficial or not hurting you? Can someone do that? - Yeah, I used to drink three ounces of wine every morning. - In the breakfast or some shit like that? - Yeah, I did.

Because there are some benefits. There are some benefits to wine. Oh, okay. But it was 73 calories and I couldn't afford the caloric intake. Other calories provided a higher value if I stopped drinking the wine. What about those pills? Didn't you have like an alcohol pill? What happened with those? So we are thinking about making them part of the Blueprint stack. Can you explain to them what it is? Yeah. So basically we put two glasses of wine into a pill.

It doesn't have the wine. Yeah. It just induces the effect of the wine. Yeah. That's what is it? Methanol or something? Like what is that in alcohol that gives you the sensation?

Is that what's in the pills? It's just the health benefits of... Oh, it's not getting you drunk? No. Oh, what the fuck is that? So much less fun. He's like, ruin your day. Dude, I thought you figured it out. Oh, dude. But that's the thing. That's something that you can look forward to. So dunking and then all kinds of...

you know, mental experiences. Like, can you simulate being drunk? Can you simulate like all the things you enjoy? I mean, you can stop myself from being hung over.

Like all these are all things. Drink as much as I want, not be hungover. Yeah. How would we do that? Just induce that state. I have friends working on that. Yeah. There's a lot of people that are working on the no hangover pill, which is a little scary because that just increases. Yeah, exactly. I mean, if I'm like Bud Light or if I'm like some alcohol company, I'm putting all the research and development into no hangovers. Yeah, exactly. Because you sell way more. Yeah. Of the hangover inducing product, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Why are they not doing that? I know, I agree. Maybe they just haven't known the technology to do it.

I mean, that's a zero moment. You need a biologist. That's the end of society. Yeah. There is a way AI-wise to give us all the benefits of the blueprint without having to change lifestyle. Is that something you're pursuing or is another company pursuing that like, maybe I don't have to sleep eight hours, but there's a helmet that can give me the same effects in an hour. Yeah, that's Ozambic, right? Yes. Yeah, I agree. And do you know of companies that are working on this and how you can invest in them? Everyone knows nobody wants to do the hard work. Yeah. Everybody wants to take a pill.

So yeah, there's a lot of money going into that. Okay, before we get out of here, we could ask you questions about this forever. Before we get out of here, any last thoughts you'd like to leave us with? I love how this was more about AI than your daily routine. Yeah. That was really surprising. And I hope people tap into that. There's another layer to it. There are tons of people who are like hacking what you eat and how you work out, but using AI to do it.

And as being an expression of that synergy with AI is something really novel. Potentially our only path to survival. Yeah, it's kind of cool. Okay, so what do you want to leave us with? Yeah, first I would say thank you. Yeah, dude. Sure, thank you. You guys were really cool. I didn't know what to expect today. And like most of the interviews I've done over the past year since things blew up is

very predictable, right? It's like what time you get up, how many pills you take a day, like tell me about your erections. Yeah. And that's why there's the appetite to talk about this larger picture just really isn't there. They just don't know, dude. I think you need to tell them more about like people only are aware of what you give them, right? Their expectation is what you serve them. And in a lot of your marketing, you're

I don't see as much of the AI component like you explained it now. I have a totally different idea of who you are after seeing this. I've heard it talked about in other podcasts, but the other stuff is just so much easier to get stuck to. Yeah. I've tried. We're going to talk more. I need to figure out how to repackage it. We're going to talk more afterwards. I mean, cool. I would love your take on that. I've tried very hard. But I would just say, yeah, I appreciate you guys because if we could really internalize

the possibility of how extraordinary existence could be, and we could fully occupy that, we may be willing to drop everything, everything. That's terrifying. Everything to have this. I mean, everything we're attached to, our identities, our status, our power, everything we care about, we may be willing to say we're in. And it's the biggest jump of faith

that the species has ever been asked to take. And it's the most terrifying thing we could ever imagine doing. That's just not us. We like to step into known things for the most part. Like there are at times in life where we feel adventurous. We go to college and there's like a new thing

thing it's emerging and we get married to have a baby and but still it's within a relatively like we can model other people's experiences and say it's going to be roughly like this thing right whereas this there's no one that can tell us what it's going to be like right you're doing your best so yeah so i appreciate that the more the more we can talk about this as a society it's going to take all of us i learned this game this a couple years back i was teaching my son how to swim

And I did a quick Google search of how do you teach a kid how to swim? And I don't know if there's any science behind this. I just read this article that you can think about it three ways. One, you could get in the pool yourself and say, jump to me. The second is you can push them into the pool. And the third is you can show them their friend swimming. And they said the best way, show them their friend. Because we all want to be part of the tribe. We want to be with our friends. We want to be respected. We want to be there.

And if we could lock in when these existential moments of AI crisis happen and we say, what the fuck? What now? If we can pull up and say we have a new game to play and we're ready to play it, that to me would be the most extraordinary thing we could do. And that's what I think we in our 25th century states would say we did it. We were prescient, we were present, and we sought. And we stepped into it when it came up.

So if we can, as a species, do it. And that's very hard. Everyone's very busy and we're all locked in on our games. And so it's a big ask, but I really think we can do it. Well, I'm looking forward to see what's happening. Thank you so much, Brian. Appreciate you. Brian Johnson, everybody. Go check him out. He's all over YouTube. Type the name and all the videos are going to pop up. I am so glad that you came by. Thank you very much.