What Undecided Voters Are Thinking
42:06 Share

This podcast is supported by BetterHelp Online Therapy. Masks are fun on Halloween, but some of us feel like we're already hiding. Therapy can help you accept and unmask all parts of yourself so you can be your authentic self at work, in relationships, and in life. BetterHelp Online Therapy is a great way to get started. It's

It's entirely online and super flexible. Fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a therapist and get started in minutes. Visit betterhelp.com slash runup today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com slash runup. When I thought about who to watch this week's debate with... Okay, so we should be pulling up on her house in one minute. The idea of visiting one very specific person came to mind. Alrighty. Hello. Hello.

A woman we met at a watch party for the first debate, named Corey Zeck. It's great to see you again. Hi, how are you guys? Thank you so much for making this work. Who, partway into watching Joe Biden's performance, stood up in front of the crowd and announced that she no longer thought she could vote for him, which she had been planning to do. Corey had voted for Trump in 2016.

For Biden in 2020. And now, in 2024, she was an undecided voter. So for this debate, we decided to throw a watch party of our own. At Corey's house in Middletown, Ohio. I didn't know before today that this is the J.D. Vance home. Yes, it is. Which, by the way, is also the home of J.D. Vance. And so being here and being undecided is...

Not fun. My colleague Anna and I met Corey and her husband Alex on their front walkway. These are the ones I was looking for. Oh, perfect. Awesome. We brought snacks. Corey specifically requested red Takis. Oh, I love Takis. They're great. And sat in folding chairs while we got the debate queued up. Some of the neighborhood stray cats also dropped by. They're like, we smell Takis. Oh, yeah.

For some undecided voters, like Corey, this debate was an important data point. How would Kamala Harris differentiate herself from Joe Biden? How would Donald Trump's mood come across when debating someone new? Today, how Corey and some other undecided voters we've talked to recently experienced the debate and whether they're now any closer to making up their minds. From the New York Times, I'm Ested Herndon. This is The Run-Up.

Can you just reintroduce yourself and tell me where we are? So my name is Corey Zek. We're actually located in my hometown of Middletown, Ohio. And yeah, we're actually at my home and I get to be in the comfort of my own place. Before the debate kicked off, Corey and I spent a few minutes remembering the aftermath of the first debate. At that time, I had

from being staunchly blue to very much undecided. Trump really won me over in that first debate, so that was helping me lean more towards him. But at that time, I was still very uneducated and still not really sure where I wanted to go with this.

with my vote. I remember the kind of moment after the first commercial break where you stood up and said, you don't think you can vote for Joe Biden after based on what you just saw. And you also said during that debate that you thought Donald Trump was a little less maybe radical or chaotic than you remembered. Yes. Is that right? Yes, that is 100 percent correct. What I knew of him, I had gotten.

mostly from very far left leaning people that he was radical and actually he prepared

presented himself as much more moderate at that debate, which is not what I expected to hear from him for sure. And if I remember correctly, that was specifically on the issue of abortion. You felt like he was not as kind of far to the right on that issue. And that came that made you a little more open to voting for him than you have been previously. Because if I remember correctly, again, you voted for Biden in 2020. I did. I absolutely did. How would you describe where you are right now?

I'm definitely leaning more towards Trump now than I was then, especially after RFK Jr. My understanding is that he is endorsing Trump now.

And that helps a little bit. I still need to learn a little bit more about where he stands on the issues of education and health care. Those are my two big issues that I really look at just because I'm a mom. I have kids. I work in health care. So those two issues are very, very important to me. And what was your and what has been your early impressions of Kamala Harris as she's taken over for Biden and really kind of changed the scope of this race?

I'm not her biggest fan because I feel like she's talking about all these issues, specifically talking about immigration and the things she wants to do. And my thought process is you've been in the White House for three and a half years with Biden. Where was the action then? And I think that's the sentiment of a lot of people that I've come across talking about this is that she's had all this time to do these things that she's talking about. Why is she not? Why is she just now wanting to take action? Mm hmm.

You know, for a lot of people, it seemed like because of Biden's age, they were more open to Harris than they were him. Are you still someone who considers yourself undecided or open to her in this debate as we're seeing coming now? I'm going into this with I encouraged myself and my husband to go into this with an open mind. I'm still pretty undecided. I think Kamala could still sway me. I think this debate will kind of make or break that.

because the election's in November. It's two months away. So if she can sway me in this debate, there's still a chance that I may be open to voting for her. As of right now, I'm still undecided, and I'm going into it with an open mind. I also wanted to understand her husband Alex's political views, because when we asked to watch the debate with them, Corey described their views as opposite ends of the political spectrum, with the crying laughing emoji.

Tell me, have you always been a Republican? No. In the state of Ohio, you don't have to differentiate. And over the years, watching presidents come and go, I've identified as a centralist because I look at both sides. The last eight years, starting in 16, I voted Trump. Trump was your first time voting for a Republican president?

Second. I voted for GW. Okay. So you went from GW and then to Obama. And then I did vote Obama both times. Both times. And then you went to Trump. And then I went to Trump. Okay. What made you switch from Obama in 2012 to Trump in 2016? You know, I'm glad you asked that question because in 16, I looked at Trump first.

the way that everybody back in the 80s looked at Reagan. We needed somebody that was not a politician, not a war hero, not somebody that was enveloped in that. We needed somebody that knew business, knew finances, and Trump was the only guy that knew it. Before tonight's main event got underway, I also wanted to hear a bit about where we were. How long have you been in Middletown? Been in Middletown, what, about six years now? Six years.

How would you describe it? Middletown? Both my wife and I have lived in a tri-state our entire lives. And there has always been the stigma of being from Middletown. Being run down, always having issues with drugs, you know.

crime, all that stuff. But the way I look, I mean, yeah, every city, every town's gonna have its bad areas. Overall, Middletown's not a bad place. It's really not. I asked...

because, you know, of the unique fact of the vice president nominee being from here and this place being a part of his story, too. I wonder what you think about the reputation that that has put out in the world. We both have very different opinions on that. I think as much as you want to think about the hillbilly elegy of Middletown, you know, like...

The book is fantastic. It was a great insight into him as a person then. I don't think it's the same community that it was when he wrote the book. I think there has been some major changes made.

Both for the better, like mostly for the better. And the book kind of seems to imply that the people here didn't want it to be better. Yeah. And that is really what I'm asking about. Like, it seems to not only say something about what was happening here, but about the type of people who lived here. Like, did you pick that up from reading it? I did. He seemed to talk a lot about how Middletown is another version of like a hillbilly town based on if you read Hillbillyology. Yeah.

That is not the case. I think there are still a lot of those same people that are here. And I think it does have elements of that. I don't think it is what he said it is. Finally, as the debate was moments from starting, we handed Corey and Alex a pen and paper so they could take notes on what stood out to them. Turns out, when it came to the issues, Corey and Alex were having a debate of their own.

What issues do you two find that you disagree on the most? Go ahead, Adi. Foreign policy is really where we have some of our biggest disagreements because he holds a more, I would say, a more conservative view on it. I am definitely more on, I think we should try diplomacy before anything else. We should try talking and doing that. He holds a very opposite view from that.

Another one is abortion. He believes it's murder. I don't. And I think that comes from... We've had this discussion before. My view on it is very much, you know, it takes two to be able to make a child. If your intention was not to have a child...

then don't do it, you know, abstain from it, you know, but the, there are, there are exceptions to that rule, rape, incest, and, and severe medical issues that would cause the child to not be able to live. You know, those are, those are the three big things for me outside, outside of that, uh,

Honestly, I firmly believe, you know, every child should have a chance. Do you try to, you know, your wife's going through the decision process about how to vote in November. Are you going to try to convince her? Are you going to try to drop arguments here and there? Or is it, you know, whatever decision she comes to is her decision? If you would have asked me that four or six years ago, absolutely. Absolutely.

But where we are, we are each our own person. I told her this the last two years. I said, you were wrong for voting Biden. I firmly believe that and we're paying the price. But I respect your decision for voting the way you did. So I will never be mad about that because that's everybody's right. That's everybody's right in the United States. That's what makes this country great is our freedom.

So let's now welcome the candidates to the stage. Vice President Kamala Harris and President Donald Trump.

The debate started a few minutes later, and Corey and Alex took notes. I am offering what I'd describe as an opportunity economy. I'm having an open mind, but it's like I'm... And gently disagree through it all. She's making it difficult. She's really making it very difficult for me. One answers about abortion. The presidential paper says abortion in the ninth fund is absolutely fine. I...

I'm with her. That's not true. That is not true. That is murder. That is murder in my eyes. I'm sorry about that. Foreign policy. We had pretty much one of the greatest times of peace on this planet when he was president. I'm not so sure I believe that, but we'll talk about that. Sure.

Healthcare. What about everybody else? Because there's people like myself who are type 2 diabetic. My insulin, even, it's still low. I'll give it that, but there are people that I know that I've talked to are paying $400, $500, $600 for a one month supply of insulin. So,

and noting the differences in style between Harris and Trump. He is. He's very angry. He is mad. He is very, very angry. But I can't tell if it's because she's actually making valid points or he's just mad about being there in general.

There were issues they thought were missing from the stage, like education. And others they thought were given too much importance.

Like the ongoing conflict in Gaza. I still don't understand why this is super important to people. It's not important to me because I hate that it's going on. I want to be clear about that. I hate that it's happening. And I guess my understanding of why it's important is because Israel is one of our allies.

But to me, they should be focusing on American issues. Why are we worried about Israel? Or fracking. Can somebody tell me what fracking is? I hear it, but I never know what it is. At the end of the night, we asked Corey and Alex to give their final thoughts. And if anything had shifted for Corey, who went into the night undecided, but leaning Trump.

Well, well, well. We've survived another one. Now that we're at the end of this debate, can you take me through some of the moments that stuck out most to you? The fact that they didn't touch on two, they barely touched on two of the issues that are super important to me. They didn't even talk about the education in this country, which is so beyond infuriating to me, but...

I don't, I don't understand. Um, a lot of it, let me see. I got to read what I wrote here. Um, I did like what Harris was saying about creating that opportunity economy that however, I don't think it's going to benefit a family like mine who we're already established. We have older children. Um, I liked that she was talking about giving $25,000 down payments to first time homebuyers, which we would qualify for that. Um, if we decide to move from here, um,

I think Trump was very angry. I was going to ask you, if you had a major takeaway from the whole thing, would it be more on policy or would it be more on the style between them?

Well, we didn't get a lot of policy, if I'm really honest, at least in my opinion. We didn't get a lot of policy in that it became very much about how they feel or the things in the past. And we didn't get any policy. We got very little policy. I won't say we didn't get any. We got very little. So because of that, it made the kind of Trump tone and anger stick out more. Mm-hmm.

That's the exact opposite of the type of person you were describing you were more interested in last time. It was because he wasn't acting like that on the stage with Biden that you seem to grow the interest. What does that do for you now that it is kind of seeming like the Trump of maybe old? I'm kind of torn because I'm seeing more of the old Trump come out. But it is interesting to see Biden or not Biden Harris push back.

Biden tried to push back, but he failed. I think Kamala Harris did a much better job of pushing back, which I think angered him. Does it sway me a bit? No, because that's not anything new for Trump. We kind of knew what we were getting ourselves into. But I still didn't hear much about his actual policies and what his plans are. They kept asking. It seemed he kept deflecting the question. Yeah.

I also wanted to ask specifically about abortion. Did you feel it was a little differently? Did you go a little differently in this debate than it did in the last debate? And what did you kind of think of the two candidates' answers on that question? I kind of expected the response from Kamala Harris because as a woman myself, I think that's an important perspective to have. And I think that perspective is kind of lost on Trump because he just sees it as

an issue for the states where I've always supported Roe v. Wade. I think it never should have been overturned. I understand why they may have chose that, but I think he just thought what he was doing was right. So he did what he thought was right in the moment. Can't fault him for that. I just don't think it was the right decision. But as a messenger, she certainly is communicating kind of an abortion position much better than Biden. Absolutely. I guess one question I have for you is,

You voted for Biden in 2020. And Harris at least seems an improvement on Biden in terms of the ability to counter Trump or lay out what they believe in terms of the Democratic administration. What is stopping you from saying, OK, whether it be abortion or character or protecting democracy or January 6th, I'm voting for Kamala Harris?

Because I want to be sure I'm making the right decision and I'm not making a rushed decision. A lot of people are standing with her simply because she's a woman. And I don't think that it's great that we have a woman running. Let's not discount that. And he likes what she said about that perspective, particularly in the abortion part. Yeah. And I think it provides a much needed perspective that we don't get. But for me...

I haven't had a chance to do much research into her background and what her previous policies were. I still have the big question, which she never really answered, of why it has taken her this long to act when she says her views have never changed. Now, I understand and I brought up the point to him that she is only the vice president. She does not have the power that Joe Biden does. But she could have said that. She didn't say that, right? She didn't say that.

She didn't say that. That was not said. That was not brought up. That question, though asked directly... Was avidly avoided. Yes. Avidly avoided. And that is really what is stopping me from fully committing to...

because even Trump is asking the question. You've had three and a half years. You've been there. What have you done? And the answer to that, to me, is seemingly nothing because we haven't really heard much from her since she's been in office as vice president. And the implication of that Trump question is that she's only saying this stuff now to win votes, that she wouldn't actually follow through, things like that. And I see that kind of argument. I guess I'm asking you,

If she feels less authentic or if you don't feel like you have that firm of a grasp of her beliefs, but you do have a firm grasp of kind of what Trump stands for, and some of it you like, some of it you don't, from what I hear. Yeah. It seems like you're dealing with the unknown quality versus a known quality that kind of makes you uncomfortable. How do you make a decision between that? It comes down to being an educated voter.

I think I need to go look at what her actual policies are, see if she's put them out there anywhere. Okay. I think looking at that and getting a solid sense of what her plans are, because I don't think the question of why she's waited three and a half years is ever really going to get answered. So you're looking for an answer. I would love to have an answer to that. But...

I think that it's going to take me being willing to do the research on what both of their policies are. But I mean, I think I'm going to be able to find more on Harris than I would on Trump because he literally said, I have a concept of a plan, but...

I'm not president yet, so I'm not going to tell you what that is, essentially. Honestly, that's that's his decision. And he's a he's allowed to make that choice. Do you are you more or less undecided than when you started this night? I think I'm about where I was before. I'm leaning. I'm I think I would consider myself right now kind of right in the middle.

They both have very solid points when you start talking about issues. The problem is I don't, we need details and we did not get any details. Maybe I'm not. What's Trump's biggest plus for you? Trump's biggest plus for me is that it seems he wants to, he really does want to better immigration, I guess. And that's not a super important issue for me, but it seems to be his biggest talking point is,

And I think that it is one that can't be denied and it can't be ignored because it does affect everyone as a whole. So for me, like the fact that he's willing to look at those things, um,

is a big plus for me. It's interesting because on one hand, you have him talking a lot about immigration, which matters a lot to people, when she doesn't super talk about it, only to say, we tried to pass this bill and you all kind of messed it up. But, like, she doesn't want to talk about it as much as he does. Right. Where she really wants to talk about abortion in a way that he doesn't really want to. But there's a lot of folks will agree with her on that kind of abortion front.

And then you have the economy in the middle, which they're kind of both fighting about. When you get to the end here, do you think it's going to be like about which one of those issues just ends up mattering most to you? Or is it how the candidates act?

in the next couple months, like kind of personally? What do you think is going to be the thing that makes it? Is it just at the end of the day, like, okay, maybe immigration will matter more, abortion will matter more, or is it maybe like you want to see her do more interviews or talk about her ideas more, or if Trump starts being a big bully, that might put you off? I guess I'm saying, how do we think? Is there any guesses we have of what might matter the most in the end or what you're looking for most?

I want to know what these they're going to do for the American people. That's the biggest thing. I want to know what you're going to do to make our lives better. Um, Kamala seemed to talk a lot more about that specific issue being that, um,

She wants to be a president that is clearly for the American people, the working class families, which for me is very, very important. I want to see if she talks more about that. I want to see if she lays out even more plans because I think we got more policy wise from her than we did from Trump. We got more about what her policy is. You know, she talked about the six thousand dollar child tax credit, which is something I think they did during covid. Right.

Which, that was Trump then. So, I mean, I don't know. She talked about the first-time homebuyer. She talked about abortion. She talked about all of that stuff. She did herself some favors for you tonight. Yeah. Because she came in saying that you were undecided, but maybe slightly Trump. And what I'm hearing now is, like, you're back to directly in the middle. Yeah. Okay.

Because we finally got some actual like policy and actual like ability for me to look at where their values align. Like they both made very valid points. But I think right now I could even probably say I'm leaning just a little bit more towards Kamala. And it's only because she talked more about what her actual policies were. Have you ever been this undecided in the presidential race? No.

Thank you for letting us come here. Thank you all so much. Thank you for working with us. This is perfect, a nice little summer Middletown night. Summer into fall, huh? We can help you pack up whatever you need. More with other undecided voters around the country after the break.

Are you dreading another political cycle heavy on punditry and light on substance? Liberties is a journal of consequence, essays of ideas to inspire and lead our culture, our politics. Mario Vargas Llosa called Liberties a triumph for freedom of thought. Ralph Fiennes said, Liberties opened my mind to subjects unfamiliar and points of view unexpected.

I am hooked. Engage with today's brightest minds. Subscribe now at libertiesjournal.com forward slash run up or at your favorite bookseller. That's libertiesjournal.com slash run up. Hi, I'm Robert Vinluen from New York Times Games. I'm here talking to people about Wordle and showing them this new feature. You all play Wordle? Yeah. I have something exciting to show you. Oh, okay. It's the Wordle Archive.

- So if I miss it, I can go back. - 100%. - Oh, that's sick. - So now you can play every Wordle that has ever existed. There's like a thousand puzzles. - Oh my god, I love it. - Actually, that's really great. - What date would you pick? - May 17th. - Okay. - That's her birthday.

What are some of your, like, habits for playing Wordle? I wake up, I make a cup of coffee, I do the Wordle, and I send it to my friends in a group chat. Amazing. Thanks so much for coming by and talking to us and playing. New York Times game subscribers can now access the entire Wordle archive. Find out more at nytimes.com slash games. You don't understand how much Wordle means to us. We need to take a selfie. Corey and her husband weren't the only people I wanted to hear from. For our episode this Tuesday...

Our team spoke to four undecided voters about what they were hoping to see in the debate. And on Wednesday, we caught up with them. Hello? Starting with Jerome Enders in Georgia. You said that you were excited for the debate. Did it live up to that excitement? Yes, I liked the flow of the debate. And I really liked the way the moderators kept the candidates on topic. Overall, it gave me...

enough information in which I could do some more studying on the candidates' positions and policies. And it helped me flush out what I was looking for and who I will be most likely going to vote for out of the two. And how did you come to that conclusion? Who are you more likely to vote for now? Well, now, yesterday I was really impressed by Kamala Harris.

It was my first time really watching her present. I like the way she expressed. I like the way she stayed on topic. But I also have to investigate some of the things that Trump said as well as migrants taking American jobs. I just want to fact find and see how accurate that is and make some decisions on that. But right now, I'll probably be leaning towards Kamala.

And what impressed you about Kamala Harris? You said it was the first time seeing her. What did you think? What I liked from the very beginning is when they announced her, she didn't stop at the podium. She walked over and shook his hand. It said a lot about her character on another level. And I can relate to her more. She comes from a middle-class family.

And she kept talking about small business. What caught my attention was she said she's going to give tax incentives to small businesses, $50,000. You know, she was talking about the American citizens, the regular American citizens. So that's one of the things that caught my attention. And what also impressed me when he was talking about the migrants and the immigrants, the illegals, Kamala said, well, she was the only one that ever prosecuted

Mm-hmm.

In what way was she different than what you expected? You mentioned being impressed because of several things, which she was saying. Was it a demeanor thing? Was it the policy focus? What exactly was the part that was most...

Yeah, definitely was her demeanor. See, I'm not the type to say a female cannot run the country. I'm not into that mentality. What I was looking for at first was how she was going to present and how would she go against Trump. It let me know a lot how she will...

go across the world. The way she presented, the things that she showed me, gave me an impression of when she's around the world in those meetings, how she will conduct herself in some type of way. Because I listen to some people, they have some concerns about, because she's a woman, if she goes into a certain country, because of their mentalities of that particular country, they may feel, you know how some countries feel about women. And I think she's going to do well.

And what did you think of Trump in the debate? I think the moderators kept him a little more on topic, but I still think he was spending more time trying to assassinate and, you know, throw mud on her instead of just taking time to talk to the American people about some real policies that he's going to implement. That's what I'm interested in.

My last question then is, why aren't you settled on voting for her? What's stopping you from saying, all right, I'm a Kamala Harris voter now? Because I'm just going to check out the independent candidate. I'm just into different topics and different policies people are trying to implement that's trying to help America. You know, I'm going to do some more research and listen for the next two months. And I'm going to go to the polls.

Well, thank you so much for your time, Jerome. I appreciate you laying out how you were thinking and letting us know what you thought about the debate. Okay, thank you very much. Yeah, you have a great rest of your day. Okay, thank you. Hey, it's Dr. Graham. We called back Charles Graham from North Carolina, who hadn't really been looking forward to the debate.

I watched a little bit of it live and then I couldn't take any more. So I caught up on the highlights this morning. My biggest issue with debates is they get asked a question that I want to know the answer to. And then they say, well, that's a really good question. I'm glad you asked. And then they talk about something else. A lot of it's rhetorical bullshit, right? A lot of the stuff they want to point out is a big, important issue is to me is like, I don't even know why we're talking about this. Right.

Like, oh, Donald Trump said some dirty shit 20 years ago. Yeah, well, so did I 20 years ago. Well, is Kamala Harris really black? I don't fucking care. I don't care. Right. You know, I don't think that the debate really moved me at all in either direction. I thought they both made good points and they both sort of pissed me off.

There was one thing that I thought was in the vice president's favor, and that was the very beginning of the debate when she walked over to him and introduced herself. And she met him all the way. I thought that was a gesture. That was a professional gesture, and I was impressed by that. The fortunate thing in this case is that we have four years of each sort of track record to work with. And I don't know. I can't escape the fact that life was better under Trump.

And it's frustrating for a couple of reasons. Number one, I would like nothing more than to stop having our country run by people who are in their 80s. I think Generation X might want to take a shot at leadership, but it's got to be the right one. And I do think we should have a female president. I think we're behind the times on that. But again, it's got to be the right one. You know, it's

I can't vote based on genitalia, but if it was an absolute tie, then maybe you say, yeah, okay, let's be progressive about this and see where it goes. I'm just afraid that that platform is going to take us in the same direction we're going. And I don't think any reasonable person could argue that we're going in a good direction right now.

I'm probably around 70-30 for Trump at this point. Like, my mind could be changed. And like I'm saying, if she shows me a plan that makes sense and can say, stop saying whose fault it is we got here and start saying this is how we're going to get out, I'm willing to listen. But I just haven't seen anything to change my mind. We also talked to Johnny Reed in Indiana. When we spoke to her the first time, she was sure she wouldn't vote for Trump.

But she was debating between voting for Harris and staying home. I kind of get more liking of her, but I still feel like they were arguing about all the wrong, you know, stuff. They really wasn't hitting what they needed to hit for the people. Still, Johnny was impressed by Harris in the debate. She was good at standing up for herself. She did good in that.

You know, I think she did really good in that position. When she said that her mom struggled to get a house for them, that's the majority of people's story, wanting to be able to afford a house to raise their kids in a nice neighborhood. Now, if she keeps that to be true, then I will go for her because I have daughters that have little kids and they can't really afford to go buy them a house that would be presentable enough

And being in a good neighborhood for the finished raising their kids. You know, with the house note, with the car note, insurance note, gas, electric. Who's fighting for just regular people for that? That's what we need. I still want to hear some more from her on, you know, what are you really going to do? And are you going to stand by your words on what you say you're going to do? I'm going to keep it open, but I know for sure I don't see me leaning towards Trump.

But I'm going to keep my option open. I keep hoping that somebody else can come in. I know that's impossible. So I'm going to keep it open for a minute. I'm going to hear a couple more of her debates. But, you know, she has all the right people fighting for her. Just hearing what Obama said about her, I'll go for her. You know what I'm saying? Obama and Michelle and Clinton, they made me lean more towards her.

We asked her what the odds are that she votes for Harris in the end. OK, so I'll do 70-30. But the question is, is my vote because I just, will my one vote help him from getting in there? Or would I vote because she's all the way the right person? Hello? Finally, we caught up with Fitzwilliam Vandermark Geary in Pennsylvania.

who wasn't sure who to vote for after RFK Jr. dropped out the race. I was not particularly impressed from either side, and my opinion remains rather the same. I don't feel like...

my questions were particularly well answered and, um, maybe they'll have another go at it before election day. Maybe they won't. I will remain undecided at this moment until then. Like neither candidate answered the opening questions to them. They just kind of deflected it. And, uh,

didn't provide the answer that was directly asked of them. So right off the bat, I kind of felt like it was just going to be a bit of a mud-flinging contest, which is kind of what it felt like to me all the way up until the end.

I felt like the reproductive rights issue, when it was directed to Trump, he didn't give a firm yearnay when they asked him about whether or not he would veto any type of nationalized bill. He didn't really answer that directly. And as far as a stance on border security or, you know, fossil industry, didn't really sound like there was a firm answer behind that either from Harris. Then

They mention it a lot, but it doesn't really seem like there's a strong answer for it. So we'll see you for next time. I'll definitely be voting as far as one of the two primary candidates. I'd really just love for a simple yes or no answer to anything that's asked of them. Long-form answers get tiring, and they just kind of muddy the water, and it's never a clear yes or no. And I really wish it would just be a clear yes or no when they're asked questions.

Out of all the undecided people we talked to, Fitzwilliam, Charles, Johnny, Jerome, and Corey, no one said that they had made up their minds after the debate. They all wanted to keep their options open, and in some cases, are waiting to make a decision until they're driving up to the polls on election day. Which, honestly, tracks for undecided voters. Because while debates are supposedly geared to help voters make a choice—

Most times, they're for the superfans, the politics junkies, people who already know who they're supporting. Which is why the topics and the answers from candidates often don't align with what undecided voters, who pay less attention to politics day to day, are looking to hear. So what will it take for this group to make their decision in the end? That's anyone's guess. ♪♪

What does the future hold for business?

Can someone please invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, HR into one fluid platform. With real-time insights and forecasting, you're able to peer into the future and seize new opportunities. Download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning for free at netsuite.com slash NYT. That's netsuite.com slash NYT.

That's the run-up for Thursday, September 12th, 2024. And now, the rundown. After the debate, Rachel Maddow was interviewing Harris' running mate, Tim Walz, when some big news broke.

She read it to him live on the air. I will be casting my vote for Kamala Harris and Tim Walz in the 2024 presidential election. I'm voting for Kamala Harris because she fights for the rights and causes I believe need a warrior to champion them. Taylor Swift had posted on Instagram that she'd seen the debate.

And she announced she would be supporting the Harris-Walls ticket. With love and hope, Taylor Swift signed Childless Cat Lady. I have to get your response to that, Mr. Governor. All those things, I am incredibly grateful, first of all, to Taylor Swift. I say that also as a cat owner, a fellow cat owner. When asked on Fox & Friends Wednesday morning how he felt about the endorsement.

Trump said, I was not a Taylor Swift fan. It was just a question of time. And then warned, And you'll probably pay a price for it in the marketplace. Late Tuesday, Harris stopped by to address supporters at a debate watch party. Our market's stuck, and we will win! And, fittingly, was played offstage by Taylor Swift. There are 54 days until the general election.

But early voting will be soon underway in some parts of the country. We'll see you next week. The Run-Up is reported by me, Ested Herndon, and produced by Elisa Gutierrez, Caitlin O'Keefe, and Anna Foley. It's edited by Rachel Dry and Lisa Tobin, with original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, Pat McCusker, Diane Wong, Sophia Landman, and Alicia Baitube. It was mixed by Sophia Landman and Chris Wood, and fact-checked by Caitlin Love.

Special thanks to Paula Schumann, Sam Dolnick, Larissa Anderson, David Halfinger, Maddie Maciello, Mahima Chablani, Nick Pittman, and Jeffrey Miranda. Do you have questions about the 2024 election? Email us at therunupatnytimes.com. Or better yet, record your question using the Voice Memo app on your phone, and then send us the file. That email again is therunupatnytimes.com.

And finally, if you like the show and want to get updates on latest episodes, follow our feed wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening, y'all.