Deep Dive
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This street right over here. It looked a little bit more shady to me. Today's not too bad, though, thankfully. The breezes make it nice. Yesterday was so hot. It's another spring day in Arizona. And once again, we're following around a group of organizers trying to reach voters on this November ballot initiative that would enshrine the right to an abortion in the Arizona state constitution.
But these organizers, Catherine and Heather, are targeting a more conservative suburb of Phoenix, and they're trying to convince people not to support the initiative.
And you work at Students for Life? I work for Students for Life, yeah. How old are you? I'm 21. Okay. How old are you? I'm 16. You're 16? Wow. How did you get involved in this? I got involved through a club that's at my school. I joined two years ago, a year and a half ago, because they started it up and I was like, oh, this is really cool. A Students for Life club at school? Yeah. Was that high school or was that middle school?
For me, it was eighth grade. It was eighth grade? Yeah. Middle school. Yeah. So we do a lot with all ages. And we also have like community things as well. For decades, the Republican position on abortion rights was crystal clear. Overturn Roe v. Wade and send the issue back to the states. But since June of 2022, when the Supreme Court's conservative majority did exactly that, Republicans have faced the question, what comes next?
In Arizona, that question is especially important because in this battleground state, Democratic groups have already mobilized around this ballot initiative, which is expected to motivate a wide range of voters to show up in November and could be a boost for Biden. So after spending time with organizers who support the ballot measure, this week we explored the anti-abortion movement in Arizona.
where a powerfully motivated group of conservatives in the state is continuing to push against the initiative and punishing the Republicans who have sought a more moderate position on the issue. Today, in part two of our reporting from Arizona, how abortion rights are exposing the fractures on the right. From the New York Times, I'm Astead Herndon. This is The Run-Up. The street was your typical Arizona suburb.
Quiet, not much grass, some palm trees, even an orange tree. No one answered at the first few houses. We can't answer the door right now, but if you'd like to leave a message, you can do it now. But Heather and Catherine left some flyers anyway. We'll just leave the information on your door. The most awkward part is when you're walking away and then they open the door and you have to decide, am I going to go back and talk to them or just be like, I left it on your door. How do you decide?
Depending on how welcoming, they open the door. If they're like, "Hello." A lot of it sounds like journalism familiar. I used to have to do a lot of door knocking and you're reading vibes in the moment. Eventually... Did someone... Yeah! What can I do for you? Someone opened the door. We're informing people about their local pregnancy resource centers. Have you heard of any in your area? No. No. We can just give you the information if you're interested. Okay.
These pregnancy resource centers offer free diapers, formula, pregnancy tests, anything that a woman could need during her pregnancy. They also offer like paternal classes for men who are helping their partner. And then we also have this. This is our decline to sign information. Have you heard of the ballot initiative that's going around in Arizona right now for abortion access? Yeah, don't worry, I'll sign that when I find it. Oh, so we're actually encouraging people not to sign it. Why? Generally,
speaking, so this will allow abortion up until the moment of birth. Is that something that you're comfortable with? No. Most people aren't. So that's kind of like we're offering that information. It'll also remove the parental consent law. So the parental consent law doesn't allow minors to be taken in to get abortions without parental consent. If that law is removed, then it'll allow
People that are trafficking children to go in. Stop with that stupid fucking argument. Okay, that's a dumb ass fucking argument. Yes, I will support this bill actually. Thank you. Have a good day. How often do you get responses like that? Not very often. Most of the time people are very receptive because they do have kids and they're like, oh, I wouldn't want my daughter who's 13 years old to be able to go in and get an abortion without me knowing about it.
You know, the bill is technically 24 weeks, yes? So, until viability? Until viability. And then it has some exceptions that are expanded from otherwise. Yeah. So, it says up until viability, but you can interfere after for health of the mother. But health of the mother is defined so broadly, it could literally just mean, oh, I don't like that I gained weight from being pregnant, which is like a natural consequence. That's what you're saying is leading to argument that you're saying it's up until birth. Right. Because the law is technically 24 weeks. So...
It is written in a way that persuades people to think that it's 24 weeks, but when we really break down the language, it would allow it up until the moment of birth. Because the exceptions are so broad. Right, yeah. This argument that Heather makes, that the ballot initiative's language would allow abortion up to the moment of birth, it's misleading, and it's one that abortion rights groups reject. Current state law permits abortion up to 15 weeks. The Arizona ballot measure would allow abortion up until the point of fetal viability.
which is usually defined around 24 weeks. Less than 1% of all abortions happen after 24 weeks. And under the ballot measure, any exemption following viability will require sign-off from a medical professional. But that didn't stop Heather and Catherine from making the argument. Let's definitely try to get that first house, because we don't want somebody to come back. We walked up to a house that had the sign out front.
It said, grandkids welcome, parents by appointment. Hi, how's your day going? That's where we met Vicky. Hi, we're informing people about their local pregnancy resource centers. Have you heard of any in your area? Well, no. Yeah, these pregnancy resource centers offer free pregnancy tests, free ultrasounds, free stuff after you have babies and even during your pregnancy. Yeah, we can give you both of these.
We're also asking people if they've heard about the Arizona for Abortion Access Act. Yes. So we're asking people how they feel about that. I am against abortion. Okay, awesome. As the king of babies. We're out here asking people not to sign for that. You would allow abortion up until the moment of birth, and it's something that's really scary and that we don't want to see happen to Arizona. So we're very grateful for your support. We also have the New York Times with us if you have a minute for questions.
to share your, you know, opinion. This is Ted, this is Caitlin. We work for the New York Times. We actually work for its politics podcast and we're following them around today partially to talk to Arizonans about how they're feeling, not only about this referendum, but about the election because Arizona is such an important state. Maybe in a couple minutes, I'm just curious on how, like, you know, we're about to come into a very crazy election period. Like, how do you, how are you feeling about that? How I'm feeling about the election? Just like, just like blue sky, first word that comes to your mind.
I feel that many people are deceived and don't really understand everything that's going on and that they'll listen to regular news that is not reporting both sides, sad to say. It frightens me. One of the reasons we like talking to people is so they can tell us what they think we're missing. What do you think are the things that folks aren't reporting on that you're saying you wish you heard more about?
the other side. I mean, so many times they'll report, like with abortion, they'll report about
"Oh, you know, we want to have more abortions, we want to make it available for people," but they're not reporting what actually happens during an abortion. Or like Israel, they'll say, "Oh, these poor people in Palestine and everything." Nothing about the hostages that were abducted or, you know, how Israel is just trying to protect themselves and keep from being annihilated. Do you have an issue that you think is most important for you in this election?
I guess those are my two most important ones right now. Can I ask you about the specific candidates? When you think about Trump and Biden likely to be on the ballot again from 2020, do you know how you're going to vote? Are you a Democrat, Republican? Do you consider yourself one of those identities? There's a lot of corruption on both sides, but...
I will not vote for Biden. I mean, he has just totally destroyed this country and he keeps sending money to people. They want to kill us and annihilate us and then open borders when you have so many people that you don't know where they're from and the fentanyl that's happening and the child, not prostitution, but human trafficking. Yeah.
And, you know, all of this that's going on and then him and his son and he is very corrupt and I do not want him president. Well, I have some question about Trump. You mentioned how you feel about Biden. How do you feel about Donald Trump?
Well, if he's the only one running, then yes, I will. I think that he did an awesome job as a president. He did a lot of stuff that, again, the media just sort of overlooked. He says stuff that he shouldn't say. I want to smack him, you know? But he did so much good. Our economy was better. Just...
Overall. One thing that's been interesting to me about Trump is he's backed away from endorsing a federal abortion ban, and he's recently kind of been like a couple other Republicans who've stepped back from really leading on a pro-life stance. Does that, as someone who feels strongly about abortion, like, does that bother you any, that he seems to have stepped away from that? I wish he hadn't. And yes, it bothers me, but being the man he is...
Because for votes.
That is a deciding factor for them. If they can't have an abortion, then they don't want that person in, even if it means that that person is going to totally destroy America. I mean, I do think that a lot of elections have told us that people are prioritizing that issue at the top. One question I have.
for you is Arizona's changed so much to become a swing state. You know, there's been a lot of influx of new folks. I don't know how long you have been in this state or anything. I guess I was just wondering, has that been tangible? I mean, does Arizona feel like it's changing? Because the numbers would tell us that it's becoming a little more liberal, that it's becoming more open to Democrats. It definitely has become more liberal and
I've been talking to my husband about moving because too many Californians came with their liberal ideas. They didn't like what happened in California. But then they come here and they still want the same thing and destroy our state. It makes me angry. But we all should have the right to vote as we feel. How long have you been in Arizona? Since 84. Thank you so much. Why don't you tell us your name or how old you are? My name is Dickie.
I'm in my 70s. That's all good. We'll take it. We're good? Thank you so much. We really appreciate it. My name is Heather. I work with Students for Life of America. Well, God bless you. Oh, thank you. I just wanted to say we're so grateful for your support. Okay. Thank you. Don't leave. We need all of our Republican voters here. We have a daughter and three grandchildren that said, no, you can't go, Grandma. You have to stay here. I see your sign. You're clearly the child of God.
Vicky is representative of a lot of Republican voters right now, who may not love that Donald Trump is rejecting the idea of a federal ban on abortion, but who are unlikely to punish him for it. But not everybody in the Republican Party gets a pass from the anti-abortion movement. In fact, on days when they're not canvassing against a ballot initiative, Students for Life have begun to target a Republican state legislator named Matt Gress.
who had, up until recently, been on their side. Now, they're handing out flyers with his face on them that say, "Wanted for the death of countless Arizona pre-born babies." And we wanted to talk to him about why he's become a lightning rod. So we said goodbye to Heather and Catherine and met up with Gris.
Do we sound okay? How do we feel? Yeah, you guys are sounding great. Are we good? Do we have a nice podcast voice? You have a great podcast voice. In a conference room at our hotel in Phoenix, right by his district. Can you just introduce yourself and tell us what you do?
Yes, my name's Matt Gress, and I'm a state representative in the Arizona House representing Scottsdale, Arcadia, Paradise Valley, and North Phoenix. Gress is in his first term as a state legislator, but he worked in state government before that under Republican Governor Doug Ducey.
When he initially ran, his platform didn't have much to do with abortion. It was about education. I'm a former school teacher, getting more money into the classroom, safe neighborhoods, ensuring that we are supporting our police, as well as addressing the serious issues down on the border, and then just keeping taxes and regulations low and appropriate.
Then on April 9th, that's when everything changed completely. I did not, it was not on my bingo card. April 9th is when the Arizona Supreme Court moved to change the landscape of abortion, reviving an 1864 law that had been on the books since before Arizona was a state.
A law that banned any abortion at any time, except if the mother's life was in danger. Yeah, can you tell me, like, what was the immediate reaction when the law went into place? So within a few hours of the court ruling, I came out with a video. I posted it and basically said that I...
do not believe that the Supreme Court's ruling can stand and that the legislature now needs to engage and repeal the territorial law because it is not in alignment with the values of Arizonans in 2024. Gress was initially the only Republican in the statehouse to side with Democrats in pushing to repeal the law. Eventually, two other Republicans joined him, and the law was overturned. But Gress made some enemies in the process. The reaction...
from Republicans was conflicted because many of my Republican colleagues who did not vote with me acknowledged why I was doing what I was doing. They saw the rationale. They obviously did not agree with me. And we're going to have to agree to disagree on this particular issue. Those people in the Republican caucus, the ones who believed the 1864 law should stand, punished Grass for his vote.
If I understand correctly, you were removed from the Appropriations Committee after this vote, right? Yes, I was. I mean, that's not a small thing. Did the intensity of the blowback surprise you any? Maybe. I mean, I really applaud the Senate for keeping their cool on this.
There were members of the Senate that wanted Senator Shope and Senator Bullock to be removed from leadership posts.
The other folks who joins with Democrats to repeal the territory law.
So it's, I think it's unfortunate, but I don't work for the speaker. I work for the people of the fourth legislative district. And I'm going to continue to do what they want me to do. Not just on this, but on other issues as well. The thing is, Gress really believes he's helping his party win. And that's what I ultimately wanted to talk to him about.
For you as a Republican, what have the conversations been like amongst the party about how to find a position that both speaks to values and has political relevance? I think for too long, we have seen the extremes on both ends.
want to pit women against new life. I don't think that it's a mutually exclusive situation. I think we can respect women and have policies that protect new life working simultaneously together. There's no doubt there are deeply held values
views on the existential question of abortion. And I'm not going to dismiss what some of my colleagues believe or view on banning abortion outright. I'm against abortion, and yet I also recognize that abortion is
What do you mean?
So if we were to allow the zero-week territorial law to remain in place, we would have created the perfect conditions for the errors in abortion access to pass overwhelmingly in November. You're saying if that law was still there, it would be easier for the progressive activists who are trying to push the referendum in November that would expand abortion access in
It would be easier for that to pass if it was up against the 1864 law. Absolutely, because you have nothing versus allowing abortion to be legal. And most people recognize that abortion has to be available in those circumstances when it's warranted. So we were going to create the perfect condition for...
in my view, a pretty extreme measure like the Abortion Access Act to pass overwhelmingly. We have to be strategic here because I think that most people are in the middle.
And I think that since Roe v. Wade was decided in 1973, we have done a very bad job on the Republican side of winning the hearts and minds of Americans, winning them over to the pro-life side. Republicans kind of, they had an easy out before Roe v. Wade was overturned to say, yeah, Roe v. Wade should be overturned.
And that was it because no one thought that it would get overturned. So you didn't really have to do the policy exercise at what happens if Roe v. Wade was overturned. Where do you want the law to stand if it was overturned? Exactly. And we didn't – we as Republicans didn't have to do the work ourselves.
around thinking through real-life implications of having a policy that is workable and reflective of the reality on the ground and that aligns with the values of the people we serve. And then there are those who are like, this is a matter of principle, this is a matter of moral conviction, and despite what the electorate thinks...
We have to stand firm on our principles. We've been fighting for...
outlawing abortion for all of this time. Now is the time to stand firm. A life is a life. Yeah, I was going to ask about what you do with the kind of moral conviction slice of your party, because it's not insignificant. You know, that's a driving activist and energy base for a lot of Republicans. And we've talked to so many activists, both in Arizona and nationally, who describe this in such human rights terms that there is no, for them, sense of compromise.
Can you describe how that was received by that wing? And then in a larger way, what can Republicans do if that group never budges? Well, that group does not represent the majority of the party. And...
Maybe it's going to take this election to show some of these individuals. And even some of them have acknowledged that they are in the minority. They acknowledge that, but they have deeply held beliefs. And again, I'm not going to dismiss that, but I'm not going to go along with that. It's not appropriate for my constituency. And when you're talking about widespread bias,
policy shifts, like completely banning abortion after it had been legal for 50 years. It just is not, the electorate, the governed are not going to shift like that. Yeah. You know, from our perspective, there's a lot of interest in how this could affect a presidential race. What do you think about that prospect? Like, is the reason this is happening now also to help Joe Biden win in Arizona? Yeah.
I'm not sure. I'm not sure the reason why proponents picked 2024 to run the Arizona Abortion Access Act. But that's the only issue that the Democrats have to run on. It's not the border. It's not foreign policy. It's not the economy. I mean, I'm straining to think what else the Democrats have to run on. The problem is that voters are not single-issue voters.
They have a host of concerns. And right now, President Trump is in Arizona, is leading President Biden. And his views and viewpoints, especially when it comes to the border, are resonating with Arizonans. The Democrats can continue to try to focus on abortion to hopefully win additional votes. But their absence and apathy on the border is
is what will ultimately do them in in November. So I think, you know, as long as we stay focused on being responsive to where our constituents want us to be and being able to talk about abortion in a responsible way, I do think that Republicans have the edge. Yeah. In one way, I see how what you're saying, that's all the Democrats have to run on. It also makes it seem like
That's the vulnerability for Republicans in that abortion and that the lack of kind of a consistent message or a lack of maybe a clear position on what to do going forward is maybe the sticking point when we think about optimism come November. Do you think by the time we get there,
Republicans will be united behind 15 weeks or will there still be, you know, the human rights faction versus another faction specifically on abortion? I think that the pro-life coalition will come together. The fact is the 15-week law is the law of the land for all intents and purposes. We repeal the territorial law, it's gone.
So now the pro-life movement has to think, okay, we could have a constitutional amendment that enshrines abortion in the constitution, or we can fight to defend the 15-week law, which was good back in 2022. It was considered very pro-life. I think that's where the pro-life factions are going to ultimately end up. They're upset right now, but my hope is that
They will see the bigger picture, but we got to be focused on talking about abortion in that way versus continuing to advocate for its complete ban and elimination. That's just not where voters are going to be. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And I think this was really helpful for us. Okay. Thank you. Have a great day. You too. Safe travels. Thank you.
For Gress, the most pro-life thing a Republican can do is find a consensus position on abortion rights that meets voters where they are, where some abortions are allowed, up until a reasonable time frame and with reasonable exceptions. And his thinking seems to mirror Trump's. It's pragmatic and calibrated for Republicans to win elections.
But there's another group that has an increasingly loud voice in this debate, pushing more extreme measures where people like Gress see compromise. These are the abortion abolitionists, the radicals, who refuse to give an inch and in doing so are boxing the Republican Party in. That's after the break.
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I'm Julian Barnes. I'm an intelligence reporter at The New York Times. I try to find out what the U.S. government is keeping secret. It takes a lot of time to find people willing to talk about those secrets. It requires talking to a lot of people to make sure that we're not misled and that we give a complete story to our readers. If The New York Times was not reporting these stories, some of them might never come to light.
If you want to support this kind of work, you can do that by subscribing to The New York Times. I think you're going in there. A couple days after talking with Gress and going out with Students for Life, Caitlin and I drove to Tempe, Arizona, to an unassuming office whose location we've been asked to keep private. Where? A little further up? We were there to meet the pastor of Apologia Church, a church focused on anti-abortion advocacy. It also has a studio space.
where they broadcast their message to more than 500,000 YouTube followers. The studio space was in the back of the building, and that's where we set up. That's okay, I totally understand. Take your time. There we go.
There were classic movie posters on the wall, next to another poster that said, babies are murdered here. Can you introduce yourself on mic? Yeah. Can you just tell me what you do? Yeah, I'm Pastor Jeff Durbin, a pastor at Apologia Church. I'm also the head of End Abortion Now and Apologia Studios. Jeff Durbin is 46, a father of seven, including three adopted children.
His wife and their two newest babies were waiting in the lobby of the building as we spoke to him. He's also a grandfather of six, and he has a colorful backstory. Yeah, so I wasn't raised in an explicitly Christian home, and...
Heard the gospel for the first time when I was 16, had a profession of faith. Moved to Arizona because at the time I was the national champion in martial arts. I was a full-time professional competitor and did a lot of different projects. Like when I turned 18, first thing I did was I was with Mortal Kombat, the live tour.
I did a lot of different projects like stuff from the Ninja Turtles franchise and video games and things like that. So that brought me out to Arizona to teach martial arts and be closer to L.A. And my life had a real transformation after about a year-long pursuit of drug addiction, drug and alcohol addiction. God got a hold of my life and my heart and changed my life. Durbin started Apologia Church in 2010. He says about 1,000 people come to services on a good day.
Durbin and Apologia have become synonymous with anti-abortion activism in Arizona and what's called abortion abolition. Yeah.
So the issue of abortion abolition is an issue that focuses in upon equal protection for all humans. It's a focus upon consistency, no compromise. The abolitionist says it is fully human and in the image of God from fertilization, and we must protect all humans and give them equal protection.
In Durbin's view, people who seek abortion should be punished. Abortion should be considered a crime. It should be considered murder. You're unjustly taking the life of a human being, and so that's murder. And what I've said is what is the historic position of the Christian church, that if you take the life of a human being unjustly, then what the state owes you, if it's proven and it's true, is capital punishment. You forfeit your right to live.
However, in this nation right now, we have strayed so far from just standards of accusation and prosecution that I can't even say and I won't say that I want capital punishment in any particular state because it could have an unjust system that leads to that capital punishment. So do I believe in capital punishment for murder? 100%. Do I believe that we are in the place right now where we can employ that with trust to our judicial system? Absolutely not.
Members of Durbin's church have done some things you'd expect, like protesting at Planned Parenthood. But one of the things that makes them different is that they also focus their efforts on pressuring conservatives who seek to compromise on abortion rights. The pro-life lobby will really boast in the fact that they are not explicitly Christian. They're opposed to using the biblical worldview and biblical standards as explicit in the legislature. The pro-life establishment
does not want to abolish abortion. They do not believe in equal protection for all humans from fertilization, though they say they do. They do not. So you'll see pro-life legislation like you can kill the children under 15 weeks but not over or 12 weeks or heartbeat. So the pro-life lobby, the pro-life establishment actually believes in partiality. They're inconsistent, wholly inconsistent, and that's the issue.
I really want to talk about actually the post-Dobbs era, but I think that was helpful context. When the decision came down, what was your initial thoughts? Thankful that God strikes straight blows with crooked sticks. Am I glad that Roe is out of the way via that decision? I'm glad it's no longer going to be able to be used as an excuse by pro-life legislators and leaders. I believe that the decision itself, however, was...
in terms of the justices actually just washing their hands of it and saying to the states, you decide if you want to kill them. And
I don't think that was a consistent or just decision. I think that it was cowardly. To be clear, you're saying that the delegation to the states is one that you find cowardly because you would prefer them to just outlaw abortion directly. I would prefer the Supreme Court be consistent, even the judges that have pro-life commitments, that they be consistent with how they address an issue like abortion and not simply say, I believe it's fully human from fertilization standpoint.
But I'll go ahead and let the states decide if they want to go ahead and oppress these human beings. To your point, it has really thrown the Republican pro-life position in flux for so many years. It was just the refrain of eliminating Roe. And now we have seen a kind of open question in a lot of states about.
about where a lot of these legislators fall. This is a big issue here in Arizona. But I first wanted to ask about national folks too. We've seen Donald Trump, frankly, step away from calls for a federal abortion ban. We've seen Republican Senator Kerry Lake
step away from calls for a federal abortion ban. What is your reaction to just the way national or kind of big name Republicans who were pro-life and anti-abortion four or five years ago have kind of become pro-state decide on its own? Yeah.
I think it's demonstrating that a lot of these politicians are not as committed to the principles they say they are. And they're, in fact, charlatans. You know, I believe this for votes. I believe this for the crowd. But I don't actually believe it in principle. And so I think what Donald Trump did and how he came out was it exposes his inconsistency, but also demonstrates that he doesn't really believe what he says he believes. And the same for Kerry Lake. And
And so you're right. There's been a big revealing after Dobbs as to whether or not people actually believe this. I have no affinity for the Republican Party. My challenge to them all would be to say, you guys don't really believe what you say you believe. You're inconsistent. And that inconsistency is so obvious. Your opposition knows you don't really believe it.
The pro-life establishment is not working for abolition and the end of abortion. They're not ultimately aimed at equal protection.
And abolishing abortion, like say we did slavery, it's a crime. It doesn't matter who does it. There is no one getting out of the justice that will be served. If you kidnap and enslave any of our black brothers and sisters, you will be punished. And we don't care who you are or where you're involved in the process, right? You're all guilty and we're going to punish you. That's abolition.
And these pro-lifers don't actually want abolition. Like looking ahead to November in Arizona, 1864 law is gone. Yep. Like what's the plan in terms of the current political reality around abortion in Arizona? Yeah, that's a good question. So in terms of methodology and strategy and establishing justice, if you're consistent at the bottom, you don't need to change your strategy. You're aiming at the same thing. Equal protection for every human being. Nobody is to be treated differently.
And so in terms of what we're trying to do, it's the same thing we've been doing, bills of abolition, equal protection, in whatever way we can get it. But in terms of this ballot measure, the ballot measure would mean that post-Roe, we would have the bloodiest and most brutal part of this Holocaust just beginning from my perspective. So it's very serious that we focus on the ballot measure. And we are. We are.
working very, very hard right now around the clock, and I cannot say what we're doing, to make sure that this ballot measure doesn't take place. Why can't you say what you're doing? Because there's too many people working on it, and I know that the opposition has a lot of money, and they have...
I'm not going to reveal to a man in me what my plans are. And they're all peaceful and all legal remedies to deal with the ballot measure. But we're working very hard right now. And there are a number of organizations that are working together with us. As a matter of fact, Apologia Church is leading this. And if we get to the point where it is
On the ballot, or is the goal right now to just keep it off the ballot? The goal right now is to kill the ballot measure. Yeah. There's no insight, like legally, or to not get enough signatures and validate the signatures, we can't get any visibility there? Can't. Okay. Is there any point of defeat here? Like, if we get enough of these in a row, like let's say Arizona backs the access bill. That is so far from abolition. Would that change anything that you all do? No. No.
No, because the problem is the same. The message is the same. And I keep bringing it back to this just in terms of it's something fresh in many people's minds in terms of in our own nation's history. It's the people still feel the wounds from it. Right. The issue of slavery. There was a heck of a lot of resistance to the abolition of slavery and a lot of people saying this isn't going to end. It's just going to keep going.
And it was, I think, just a grace of God that light really started to shine in people's hearts and minds to love another person like God calls us to. And that's how it happened. Also, huge war. Well, and where we are in the Civil War. Yeah. Yeah. And I actually believe that the Civil War was judgment in our nation for doing such a wicked thing for so long. Yeah. Do you vote? Yeah. Yeah.
When I think about the presidential election, like, how do you view this issue in terms of, I imagine, two choices now that, at least in terms of major party candidates, have stepped away from the idea of a federal abortion ban or really embracing abortion as a thing to be restricted at the national level? Where does that leave you? So you heard me say that I have no affections ultimately for the Republican Party or anything like that. What I'm looking for is consistency in principle.
But we're obviously, from my perspective as a Christian, as a pastor, in a very difficult moment because it would seem to be that both candidates, whether it's Biden or Trump, both have radically unchristian worldviews on so many issues. And so it becomes very challenging. I'm not saying that as a Christian you need to have the perfect candidate. But you're right. On this issue, it becomes very challenging for someone like me.
I don't idolize Trump. I'm thankful for some of the things that he did that are consistent with the Christian worldview. I'm thankful for a lot of those things. But at the same time, I think it's important to call out where he is inconsistent and where he demonstrates that I'm more concerned with votes than I am lives. I think the idolatry of Trump amongst Christians in America is shameful. But from what I'm hearing, he's more likely to get your vote.
Trump? Right now, I do not have any position on it at the moment. I'm hoping to see light and consistency happen. But yeah. The last question I have is, it seems like the Republican Party, even though
It's not something you personally identify with. It's in a rock and a hard place, partially because of the advocacy of abortion abolitionists. That has historically been a huge energy and activism base for them and a source of money. A lot of money. And they have really calibrated their message around some of that activism. And...
It does seem like right now their desire to reposition is being pulled from the desire to win votes, as you have identified, and folks like you who are, as they do that pivot, calling them out. Right. In their dream world, I imagine you all become more open to compromise and just let them pivot. Yeah. But that doesn't seem likely. Not if your commitments are first and foremost to the authority of Christ and...
the Word of God. No, we're not going to change because the Word of God doesn't change. The Christian worldview is consistent in this area. The problem we have right now politically is there's so many people who are just in this as a career, and it's just pretend. It's just something you say for votes. And I don't want to live that way. I want to live in such a way that I actually believe what I say I believe. And if I say this human being is valuable, I act like that's true. Would you rather...
carrie lake and donald trump lose with endorsing abortion abolition or when if it required stepping away i'd rather see them lose being consistent yeah because i think what god shows us over and over and over again is what he blesses is faithfulness in his people and at times he will change history with the smallest numbers of people through faithfulness so yeah
Would it be devastating to this nation to see more, from my perspective, economic injustices that are promoted by socialists and Marxists and things like that? Would it be devastating to have them employ more of their worldview with regard to children and sexuality?
Yeah, that'd be devastating, and I don't want that for our nation. But what I do want is to see actual transformation take place. And if that means that you have to lose an election because you're being faithful and consistent, I'd say God will bless that. Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Cool. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. This was helpful. Absolutely. I really enjoyed talking to you. Your point about the idolatry of Trump is interesting. Yeah. And I do think the way that a lot of conservative evangelicals have started to talk about Trump feels different than any kind of politician relationship I've seen. Yeah, it is interesting. And the thing that I thought was the most disturbing thing to me is we went during the Capitol breach. I wasn't there. I didn't do that.
We were there just on the ground that day to just provide like Christian media coverage of like this whole thing. And then that whole thing went off. We were a ways away. We did some stuff saying, this is not the way you do things. This is not the way Christians should approach this. But the thing that was, I think most disturbing to me that whole day was the
So when it comes to Republicans and abortion rights, there's enough finger-pointing to go around.
People like Matt Grass want compromise, which is anger pro-life activists like Students for Life and hardliners like Pastor Jeff Durbin are upset with both groups for not going far enough. This division could represent a problem for Republicans in November, the first presidential election since Dobbs. Because now that Roe is overturned, the anti-abortion movement has lost its chief organizing principle. And in doing so,
created one for the Democrats.
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Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Comparison rates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. That's the run-up for Thursday, June 20th, 2024. And now, the rundown. The work Jeff Durbin is doing in Arizona is just one piece of how religious conservatives are organizing to push abortion abolition and other causes and oppose for a world. To understand how that work is unfolding nationally and how it might show up in November...
I call out a colleague. I'm Elizabeth Dias. I'm the national religion correspondent for The Times. And I write about the anti-abortion movement and especially the conservative Christian power involved in advancing the anti-abortion cause.
Yeah. And we recently just spoke to Lisa Lair, who co-authored a book with you that is titled The Fall of Roe, specifically around these issues. How would you describe the goal of the anti-abortion movement in this post-Roe era?
Well, their ultimate goal is the end of all abortion, right? The fall of Roe was the beginning in a way, not the end. And it's a movement that thinks in these long arcs, right? I think in generational terms. So even though now there's been this enormous backlash to the overturning of Roe from liberals, moderates, even some conservatives who were not happy with that decision, they are
looking ahead to what are the kind of tactics that they need ultimately to push ahead with their goal. So they're finding some success, of course, in conservative pockets and conservative states.
You know, I know you covered the religious angle of this. You actually talked to the pastor that we spoke to in our episode today. How is this issue playing out amongst the religious right? Are they aligned on what to do next regarding abortion rights?
They're split. The pastor, Jeff Durbin, that you spoke with for your episode, he's on what many would consider the fringe of the anti-abortion movement. But it's a fringe that's been gaining a lot of traction. And that's a segment of this whole movement that we see doubling down, hardening across areas of society.
politics, public policy efforts that really is doubling down with the conservative Christian vision and following it through to its logical conclusion. We see that in places like the Southern Baptist Convention, opposing IVF. We see it with some of the
Republican lawmakers who are in the MAGA movement and the anti-abortion movement, where those things kind of mingle together in states, in places like Arizona, for example. Are there any notable anti-abortion candidates running on further restrictions in this climate? What are you watching for when it comes to November?
Well, it's been really interesting watching Republicans, even those who have been staunch anti-abortion supporters, even former President Trump, who made his whole, so much of his platform was to support for the anti-abortion movement. They've been
really running away from the cause in many ways. What was a political advantage to them before Roe fell is clearly not right now. And I think the politicians often see that, especially if they're in moderate districts. Restrictions on abortion, cracking down on IVF, these are very unpopular positions. And Republicans know that. Thank you so much, Elizabeth. We appreciate your time. Thanks so much for having me. It's good.
There are 25 days to the Republican National Convention, 60 days until the Democratic National Convention, and 138 days until the general election. We'll see you next week. The Run-Up is reported by me, Ested Herndon, and produced by Elisa Gutierrez, Caitlin O'Keefe, and Anna Foley. It's edited by Rachel Dry and Lisa Tobin.
With original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, Pat McCusker, Diane Wong, Sophia Landman, and Alisha Ba'i-Tub. It was mixed by Sophia Landman and fact-checked by Will Pyshel and Caitlin Love. Special thanks to Paula Schumann, Sam Dolnick, Larissa Anderson, David Halfinger, Maddie Maciello, Mahima Chablani, Jeffrey Miranda, and Elizabeth Bristow.
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