The Trump Plan to Flip Georgia Back
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Oh, this is some crowd. This is what a group. I know so many of the people, all these people. They're tough as hell. They're from Georgia. They should be tough.

— On Tuesday, I was at the Trump rally in Georgia. — Early mail-in voting in your state is now underway, and early in-person is underway. But I'll tell you what, I'm hearing very good things now. — A state he lost by around 12,000 votes in 2020, and which became the center of his claims that the election was stolen. — So if you have a ballot, return it immediately. If not, go tomorrow. As soon as you can, go to the polls and vote.

Trump went after Republican state officials and voting machines, many of the people and systems that are still in place there. For the next 21 days, get everyone you know to get out and vote. We don't want to take a chance. We can't lose this country. Which raised the question of how he would navigate that in 2024, asking people to participate in the system he says is rigged.

This rally gave us a clear answer. We want a landslide that's too big to rig. Too big to rig. Nothing will sway us, nothing will slow us, and no one will stop us. We will press forward to our magnificent American destiny, and together we will fight, fight, fight. Today, inside the Trump ground game in Georgia—

and why state Republicans are confident that 2024 won't be a repeat of 2020. From The New York Times, I'm Astead Herndon. This is The Run-Up. How are y'all? Hey, thank you guys. I'm giving it to you. If you wouldn't mind hanging up on the phone calls just real quick. We're going to get started here in just a second. I spent a lot of time reporting in Georgia back in 2020. And one thing I've noticed is that from four years ago till now,

There's been a big change in how both parties are thinking about their voting coalition. Thank you guys for coming. This is our phone bank, huge bag of phone bank, day of action. We're knocking doors. We're making calls for President Trump. We're three days out from early voting, so we're getting fired up for the president. We're going to get him elected, right, guys? Let's get it done.

Back then, Democrats relied on the playbook made famous by Stacey Abrams, who argued that Georgia was an artificially red state. And if Democrats registered more voters, especially Black, Latino, and Asian voters, they'd turn it blue. So here with us today, we have State Representative Jordan Ridley. He's going to say a few words, so I'm going to pass it over to him. We're going to get fired up for President Trump today, so let's get it going. Woo-hoo!

Today, polls tell a different story. We appreciate y'all being here today for this day of action. They show Trump doing better than expected among minority voters, which has helped him gain an edge in the more diverse battleground states, like Georgia and Arizona.

While Harris does better in the wider ones, like Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan. We got to get Donald Trump across the finish line. We got 24 more days left. And it's the people like y'all that are going to get us there. Every phone call matters. And that's what led me and my colleague Alisa

to a Trump campaign office in the Atlanta suburbs this past weekend. — Y'all are reaching to those low-propensity voters, those swing voters, the ones that we know. We have to talk to them. We have to talk to them two and three times to make sure they're going to vote for Donald Trump and that they actually show up and vote. So everything you're doing is highly important. And thank you all for being here today. — Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!

State Representative Jordan Ridley, who'd been canvassing that day with the state's young Republicans, spoke to volunteers ahead of the phone banking to remind them of what's at stake. And when we talked to him, it was clear Republicans had their own theories about why Georgia flipped four years ago.

2020, we had COVID. We had a whole list of different things. People didn't want to go out to the polls. People did mail-in voting. So this year, no one's taking it for granted, while four years ago, I think there was some factor of taking it for granted. Tangible differences, you didn't see these offices here four years ago. They're everywhere in metro Atlanta and across the state now. There are volunteers being out in the community. So that's the tangible differences. According to Ridley, the Trump campaign is now using a multi-pronged strategy.

First, getting the most people out to vote early as possible. Every day the Secretary of State's office puts out who voted. So when you vote and you vote early, we know it so we can go target those people who aren't. Because once we get people to the polls to vote, then we know we got them locked in and we can focus our efforts on those who haven't voted.

One of the things I wanted to ask also is that I remember being here in 2020 and part of the story of both those Senate races and Georgia's flip was in the suburbs kind of shifting. And some of those were, you know, places like this who seem to be a little annoyed with Trump or at least less interested than they were in 2016.

Have you been able to win those people back, you think? I think so. I think people who may not have been happy with Trump in 2020, they voted for the new option. They've seen the new option isn't that great. They see all the problems, all the failures of the Biden-Harris administration. So if they were even annoyed with Donald Trump, they know his policies work and they're going to come back and vote for us in 2024. The second prong is targeting people known as low-propensity voters.

People who don't always vote. People who are low propensity, they may have that hiccup or they may be people who want to be involved. They support Trump's America First policies, but they're just like, I'm busy, I can't do it. So when Trump's trying to reach out to them, like, hey, you like my policies, I need your vote this time. We saw what happened in 2020, anomaly, whatever you want to call it. We got to make sure we don't do that again. So we need you to come show up because if you like my policies, the way we continue for four more years is you show up and vote.

A big piece of how the Trump campaign is targeting these low-propensity voters is something called Trump Force 47. It's an organizing program where people can sign up to phone bank or door knock in their communities with a special focus on people who don't vote consistently.

Jay Wilson and Lori Wood are Trump Force 47 captains. I was curious to hear about their experience.

and what it's like trying to convert people to Trump's side. Some undecided voters, when I start talking with them and I bring up the economy and I bring up Trump's policies versus Biden's policies,

The last four years have been very difficult for a lot of people. They can't afford groceries. They can't afford life anymore. And how I position it with the voters, and it's been very effective as I tell them, I said, if you want...

Eight years at this, that's what you're looking at with Kamala Harris taking the reins. She would be in office for eight years. We know Donald Trump's policies work. You might not like his personality, but his policies absolutely worked.

and we'll have him for four years. He's not a dictator. That's the media throwing that out there. And he would be there for four years, and then you get all new leadership in four years. It's like a fresh start for everybody. And when I did that, I've talked to many voters. I had a woman yesterday, as a matter of fact,

She was on the fence and at the end of our conversation, she said, I'm voting for Trump. And she took two Trump signs from me and bumper stickers. And when we left yesterday, we were like hugging it out. One of the things that the state rep mentioned as he was talking, you know, is the low propensity voters, people who don't come out often. And so I was going to ask, as you all are calling and if you're on doors,

How much of your convincing effort is about getting people to vote at all versus the- - Big time. I spent a couple of hours on a corner of the street in my neighborhood. I put out a sign that says register here, you know, and that's all I did. I put up some balloons and I put up a Trump sign and I sat there with a stack of, you know, three part paper.

whatever it is, application for voter registration. And people would just come up and say, I had a lady come up to me and say her dad was 90, her mom was 84, she was their caretaker, and they had never voted before. And she wanted to find out how to get them involved in being able to vote. So we're seeing things, I'm seeing things that...

are people that don't normally get active or getting more active. It's been a big part, I think, of the Trump campaign here recently and certainly ours on the ground that we've got to find these people that maybe not necessarily would have taken the time in the past, but convinced them to vote early because it can rain on election day. We've got to bank the vote, and I think that's been a...

Big play on the K-10. Is it hard or difficult convincing people to vote early considering a four years ago? I know a lot of people were nervous about some of those things. They were nervous about it, but it's changing. They're not anymore. You're saying you don't run against any opposition when you vote early or for people who may have been skeptical of that four years ago? Generally, it's improved. Here's what I think. I don't know if you agree. We have to outvote

The margin that normally they get away with in inner city and other precincts, they get away with a certain amount of this kind of stuff. And it happens behind closed doors. And it's all Democrats that run the administration from up till down. So people like us, we feel like we got to get more than the margin of cheating. I'm really confident that we're going to be able to do that. I mean, the groundswell is there. I mean, we're hopeful, I think.

When you think about the pitch that you make to people, whether it's on the doors or calls, are you mostly saying what Democrats are doing right now is bad? Or you're saying here's what Trump is going to do and that's good? Which pitch is more effective? I try to focus on what he can do that's good. That's what I would try to focus on. But there's so many other rabbit holes to go down. It's hard. But what you do is you show up and say, who do I want to put first? I want to put Americans first.

citizens first, legal American citizens first. Whoever's in the productive class, I don't care what race, color, creed, I don't care about any of that. Are you part of the productive class? Do you put in more than you get out? That is what he cares about. So anyway, I try to focus on what he would do. We've got to close the border. We've got to focus on Americans. That's really where I would go, but there's so many other rabbit holes to go down. Somebody

to use this analogy on me and I thought it was a good one when you're picking a surgeon and I personally had this experience I had to have some sinus surgery years ago and I had to pick a surgeon that

that was competent because they were going to drill a hole in my head. Okay. And the guy that is the most competent in Atlanta, he's so cocky. You don't call him for an appointment. Your doctor has to call him for an appointment. And I didn't want to go to him. So I went to somebody else first and guess what? It didn't work. And then I had to go back to him and I went back to him and he fixed the problem. And I should have known, I should have

Just swallowed my words and just gone with the cocky guy with the horrible bedside manner. But he's a gifted surgeon. That's what I look at President Trump. He's the cocky guy, but he gets it. But the better option. Better results. It's better results. Can we get to like a mini little role play? Like, let's say I'm some voter or some person you're talking to on the doors. And I agree with you all mostly that Trump's policies were better.

that I don't really like how things are going right now. I'm unsure about Harris or whatever. But say, like, the thing that makes me nervous is January 6th. Or the things that comes in my head when I think about it are what happened at the end of the last one. I didn't like how 2020 ended. What would you say to me? I think it's Congress's duty to secure the Capitol. They should have had people there. I, you know, I think January 6th, I think...

There's a lot more questions than there are answers. If you did break property, if you did hurt somebody, you absolutely deserve to be in prison. I support that 100%. And all my door knocking, I can honestly say, I think I've only had one person bring up January 6th. Only one person. The biggest rejections I see are from super nice people

I've met several nice ladies, nice women. You can hear they're family women, but they're scared and they're worried about, you know, the kind of the abortion question. That's what that comes up a lot more. That's what I hear. And the only thing to say to that.

The only thing I say is that abortion's not going away. Trump is not a pro-abortion. He doesn't have that ideology, anti-abortion, no-abortion ideology. He doesn't have that. He doesn't have a pro-abortion ideology. He doesn't care. He wanted to get it away from what everybody agreed that the Roe v. Wade decisions, 1973, the year I was born, was bad law.

Those were men in robes making that decision for women. We have states that can make those decisions. But if I was a voter who was saying, you know, I'm worried about abortion access and Trump installed the judges that put that into question, your response would be what?

I would say it's in the States. And now you've got a local place. You can go to your state house. You can get fired up and signs and protests and demonstrate and write letters to the editor right here in your community. And you can have a greater impact on your access to abortion or if you're in opposition to abortion right now. There's never been more.

possibility for you to affect change in the world that matters to you. I also believe IVF should be covered by insurance. I was fortunate back in 1999, almost 25 years ago, that my IVF procedure was covered through insurance. It was a blessing beyond belief. You are upset at the Republicans who don't necessarily agree with that because it's been an open question about IVF and abortion. Some loud Republicans that are...

Of course, Trump has been in a different place. We know Trump has been in a different place. There are some people that are like, oh, abortion. But that's not... I don't think everybody that's involved in... Trump has changed the dynamic on everything. It's no longer the evangelical Christian Republican Party. It's no longer the country club Republican Party of the rich businessman. It's no longer that. This is now the party of the working person and the reasonable America-first people.

Not everyone at the phone bank was as experienced as Jay and Lori. Take Julia and Sean Banks. They're a married couple who are both Black and caught my attention in the room. So after talking to two experienced phone bankers, I wanted to talk to them, rookie campaign volunteers.

who are both part of a closely watched demographic this election, as polling shows Harris' support with Black voters in swing states slipping below expectations.

I've always been more conservative as black people. I think black people in general are more conservative, but we get pushed into this Democrat plantation from, I guess, the 60s or whatever, and then it just continued generation after generation. Did you grow up as a Democrat? Yes. My family, you know, they're probably still Democrat, unfortunately, but, you know. When was the first time you remember voting for a Republican?

I voted for George Bush when I first could vote and then I unfortunately I repented every day for it. I voted for Obama twice. And then you voted for Trump in 2016? Yes. What was it happened between 2012 and 2016 that made you think I'm going to back to Republican?

So Obama, to me, first of all, I feel like he betrayed us. Some of the values that I have, he was like, I don't stand for this, I don't stand for that. And then once he got in office, he did everything for the gay community. He did nothing for black people. He was against gay marriage, and then he was for Obama. Yeah, and he did that to get the Christian vote, the black Christian vote, and then he just like,

Oh, this is who I am. And he took off his suit. His devil horns came out, you know. Interesting. Does your, did you vote for Obama? I did vote for Obama the first time. I actually voted third party the second time. And I realized both sides is tainted, you know, left wing, right wing, same turkey. And I always agreed with that. But to me, Trump was sort of a wild card. A wild card is good.

The wild card is good. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, some people can say wild card. I'm just clarifying. You're using wild card as a hypothesis. Yeah. A lot of people would say that a bull in a china shop is bad too, right? Right. But I believe he's a bull in a china shop. And sometimes you got to break eggs to make an omelet. That's what makes me like him. Why do you think such an overwhelming amount of black people vote for Democrats? Well, I hate to say it like this, but

They've given us things, whether you want to say it's welfare, but they've given us certain things. They've looked at us as defranchised, and I think they're replacing us with the illegals. So now we got, I want to say what I want to say, but now we got some new people to give stuff to.

And I think they thrive and they give stuff to people they think they need it. You know, it's like a lost puppy or whatever. So I think that's why we normally vote that side because we look at the Republicans as being the elite.

the rich white men who don't care about nobody else but theyself, which they still paint Donald Trump as. I don't see it that way. I would say 2004, I imagine black Republican was a more lonely position. Do you talk to more people about it now? Do you think things are changing? Do you think the relationship between black folks and Democrats or Republicans are changing?

I think Trump is changing that. Anytime I see a lot of these podcasters go out in the street and ask people, a lot of times they go to the black neighborhoods, to barbershops. And what you're hearing from a lot of young black men like my age and middle age, what they're saying is things were better economically under Trump. And I think it's not just black men, it's white men too, white young boys too. And I think why they're gravitating towards Trump and not gravitating towards Harris and Wallace is the fact that

Deep down inside, young men want to have a wife and take care of their family. You know, we have this whole thing with Andrew Tate or Jordan Peterson teaching men to be men again, but

The Democratic Party seems like they want to call that, you know, they want to say that's toxic. What's toxic about a man being a man and taking care of his family? And I think the Republican Party shows that strength. I mean, it's one thing to vote for him. It's another thing to be at a phone bank and kind of put yourself in a more active position. Why did you decide this time I want to be someone who's organizing votes? I want to be an ambassador for Trump rather than just organizing.

I'm voting for him in the booth. So to me, it's Kamala Harris is so, so bad. And she's fake. I don't think she's qualified to run the country. It's not because she's a woman. I don't care about. I'm going to try to put a filter on it. I don't care if she's black or not. Her policies are bad.

And do I want to see a woman in the, I don't care if a woman is president or not. I want someone qualified. She's not qualified. And I will add this to it. Obama actually, we saw him campaign. We saw him earn the spot that he got. I don't see that with Harris. I see more of it's been given. She ran for president. She got knocked out and then all of a sudden get picked up only because of what she looked like.

in her gender. That makes me feel like she didn't earn it, just like she didn't earn the presidential candidate. The guy dropped out, you're the next one up. You all are doing these kind of efforts. I'm curious, like, what comes up as you talk to people about trying to convince them to vote for Trump? What are some of your interactions like and how have you, what strategies have you used? Do you have some go-to things that you say to say, this is why I think you should vote for Trump?

Well, for me, one of the things that come up is he's a racist. So I'm able to pull up the thing that they use to say he's a racist and show the whole clip. What clip are you talking about? Oh, there is people, good people on both sides. He specifically said, I am not talking about the white supremacists or these other people. He said, I'm only talking about there were people that protested because they wanted to keep the statue. Everybody that was there was not bad.

So when you hear people say, you know, Donald Trump's racist or I won't vote for him because of that, you go back and say, hey, what you think about Charlottesville actually wasn't what he fully said. Correct. Do you have a go-to strategy that you said? I can't convince my own family. They think he's racist. My mother said, and my mother voted for Bush.

because of his policies. But for some reason, she said she hates Donald Trump's voice. She doesn't like it. And me and her, we stay away from that conversation. Yeah. I appreciate it. This is really helpful. I think we're just going to sit down and listen to some people make some calls now. Thank you all for helping. Thank you. So Julia and Sean may not represent the low propensity voters the Trump campaign needs the most.

But their story, and transition from Obama voters to Trump volunteers, speaks to some important themes that will shape this election, as do their efforts to convince their family members and friends. Four years ago, Georgia's demographic shifts seemed to spell doom for Republicans. Now, the party is working to bring these voters into the fold, efforts that seem to be reflected in the polls.

And it's part of the reason Republicans are confident that 2020 will go down as an outlier, as long as their party remains united and energized. After the break, the first day of early voting in Georgia, and the first clues on whether they actually are.

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That's modern made simple. Shop now at allmodern.com. Okay, so what's our plan for today? Well, currently we're at the Red Eye Mule Diner in Marietta, Georgia. And today is Tuesday, October...

And it's the first day of early voting in Georgia. So after spending the weekend hearing the strategy from the Trump campaign on how they were trying to reach people who don't traditionally vote, or maybe people who are more interested in Trump more this time than they were last time, we wanted to see if we can find a voter who really represents someone

who has heard that message and responded by voting early. The Trump campaign mentioned over the weekend the importance of early voting because they're trying to have these votes banked so they can increasingly target voters as they get closer into Election Day. And it's something that the party's really shifted on. So we're going to go around to this all-important county in the state and see what the early voting sites look like. And then we'll finish the day at Trump's event, which is also in Cobb County.

We started at a rec center in Cobb County, an area of metro Atlanta, just outside the city, which went for Biden in 2020 by a margin of 56% to 42%.

And for many, especially Democrats, it was about convenience. One thing I do is I check the map to see what the wait times look like. And it's five minutes. Yeah, he said, so it's time to act right now. I'm retired. I have all the time in the world off. So I decided, let's get it done. I think it's going to be very contentious. I think the lines are going to be pretty intense.

And I had the opportunity to do it. I'm on break right now, fall break. So I wanted to avoid the chaos, the crowds. The contention. Yeah, well that and people just get crazy, especially in Cobb. The main issue was whatever we needed to do to stop Donald Trump. But for many of the Trump fans we spoke with. Good, how are you all? Fine.

You interviewing for what? We're from the New York Times. We're talking to people about early voting and what decided to make folks come out on the first day of early voting. You all have a couple minutes to chat with us before you head inside? Sure, but now you can't campaign. You know, we're within the spot where you can't campaign. We're not campaigning or anything. We're just talking to people about their decisions and what may, yep, and about early voting generally. Well, the reason I came for early voting is because of 2020. 2020 was a big factor, too.

What do you mean? The fraudulent ballots were counted. So were you someone who didn't vote early last time? Did you vote on Election Day last time in 2020? I'm saying, how did it make you think, OK, this time I want to go early? Because for one thing, I don't trust the Dominion machines. It is fraud. It's fraud. So when you vote early, even though I'm going on the machine...

They're supposed to count the number of ballots and the number of people who voted and make sure that's equal. So it'll be a lot easier for them if people come and vote every day rather than just the last day. So that's another reason. One question I have, though, is how do let's say let's say your candidate is not successful. Is there a way that you would still trust that it was fair if your candidate loses? Yes.

I'm not sure, because if they're going to use the same machines that were crooked last time, why won't the same machines be crooked this time? Thank you so much. You're very welcome. Hi, how are you all? My name is Estep. This is Alisa. We're from the New York Times. We're talking to people about early voting, what's the top issues that matter to them in this election. If y'all maybe have five minutes, we would love to chat with you all. Georgians have been so nice to us today. Sure. Why did you decide to come on the first day of early voting? I just wanted to make sure I got my vote in. Have you typically voted early?

In the past, I have a couple of times where I'll go on voting day. But this time you wanted to make sure? I just wanted to make sure I got it in. Are you a Democrat or Republican? Have you identified with any party? I'm independent, but I'm voting for Trump. How did you come to that decision? Is there a top issue that mattered for you that really closed the deal for you? Economy, immigration.

I voted for Trump since the first time he came down the escalator. So it's been 16, 20 and this time. Yeah. Cool. One thing I was going to ask is, I remember four years ago being in Georgia and there was concern among Republicans about trust in the electoral process. I'm wondering, how do you feel now? And do you think that issue is still kind of top of mind for people?

I am worried about it. That's actually one of the reasons I wanted to come and vote early. The last time I voted, I felt there were some strange things that happened when I was voting in Cobb County. Kind of felt like my vote really might not have been counted. And you were voting early four years ago or that was on election day? It was still early. I think more Republicans are thinking like that this time.

I do, and I think a lot of Republicans feel that the last election was stolen. Relating that to this one, how is this going to be trusted? I guess kind of the way I want to ask it is, is the only result that's going to be trusted a Trump victory? Yeah. That's how you feel? I'm hoping that he has a land side victory so there's no questions about it. But you feel like if we come to, you know,

November, if we come to election night and it's, you know, a slight Harris victory like last time, you think those same things will pop up? I won't believe it. I just see all of the rallies Trump has and everyone that I talk to that's voting for Trump, even people who in the past were Democrats. My family's always been Democrat. My mother, strongly Democrat, is voting for Trump. So there's a lot more people getting out and voting now, I think, for Trump. Which leads you to feel like the result you'll trust is a Trump victory. Yeah.

Cool. You got any more questions? We got it. Thank you. Thank you so much. We appreciate your time. Hey, how are you? My name is Ested. This is Alisa from the New York Times. We're talking to people about early voting and what their top issue is in the election. We were hoping to just talk with you maybe for five minutes. Georgians have been so nice to us today. Can you tell us why you decided to come on the first day of early voting?

Well, the Republican Party of Georgia wants people to go ahead and if you vote, then your vote is then, it is counted and it is banked. And the Republican Party then does not have to continue to reach out for people who have not voted yet and spend money and time and effort contacting them. So that's the theory behind it. And

And so there's also the idea that they wanted to have a lot of people vote on the first day just to show the enthusiasm for Donald J. Trump and J.D. Vance. Did you vote early four years ago? Yeah, I did. You did. So you've typically used the early voting option. Yeah, but not like on the first day. I just write on the first day kind of because of that specific request from the Republican Party. Right. Sure.

the idea of voter integrity in Georgia is paramount and people have got to really understand that we are having free and fair elections because 2020 was an absolute disaster and a chaos. What do you think the effect is? I mean, because you're laying out what I think is the kind of the MAGA argument of how they seem the last four years. Do you think that kind of MAGA base

will have trust in the results of this time around? It depends on how transparent it is. So the question is, you know, there are a lot of people looking this time.

It won't be a question of trusted results. It'll be a question of we've got to see the evidence and we've got to be able to count it. And just last, which we say we I'm saying, are you working with a specific organization? Have you like or you're just someone who has been. I'm somebody that goes down to the state election board meetings, that stands up and says something about it. I'm a guy that shows up on the first day of voting as asked to be able to do this. I'm somebody that I'm.

I'm an eighth generation Georgian. And the idea that this state has got the worst, the most, the least transparent voting process in the country is beyond preposterous. But the whole idea, as Trump has said, and other people in the great state of Georgia said, we've got to make...

we've got to make the turnout too big to rig. It's got to be too big to rig. — And so that's the focus right now? — The focus is right now is to, yeah, to have the Republican base turnout big. — Thank you so much. We really appreciate your time. — You're welcome. — All in all, the message from Republicans was coming through loud and clear. But we still had one more stop before our day was over.

What are we walking by now? It is late Tuesday afternoon, and we are outside the Trump event in Cobb County, Georgia. He's doing an event to encourage people to early vote, which coincides with the first day of early voting here in Georgia. And we're here, though, to continue our search for...

Someone who really matches up with what the Trump campaign was saying as their target, like their most interested voter for November, which is someone who either obviously flipped from voting from Biden to Trump from 2020 and 2024, or someone who wasn't voting at all, one of those low propensity voters who they've encouraged to get involved.

So we're going to talk to some people, try to see if there's anyone here who fits in that category and maybe didn't vote last time but is voting this time. The Line for Trump's event snaked around the building with no end in sight. And it had all the usual signs of a big MAGA gathering. A lot of red, white, and blue. A lot of t-shirts railing against Democrats. — Hi, how are you? — And a ton of red hats. Which is when we met Caleb, a 27-year-old who works in auto sales.

And was standing in the line alone. Can you just tell me a little bit why you came? So I came because I was bored, honestly. I saw an ad on Instagram, and I do support Trump. I had nothing else better to do, so I was like, come on out. And I'm interested in politics. I would love to be a politician one day.

But I've never been to a rally, so... Can you tell me how old you are? 27. 27. Are you someone who just has been a Republican and that's why you're interested? Or is your interest more in Trump than the Republican Party at large? So I would say it's more in Trump than the Republican Party at that point. So I don't identify with any party. I just like some of the things he says...

I'm only 27, so I think Trump first got elected in 2016 at that point, so I was a freshman in college at that point. I wasn't, had no parent support anymore, so I was living on my own. They still paid for school, but I had to buy my own gas, things like that. I've noticed that things have been increased since then. I get less money in my paycheck than before, and it doesn't go as far, which...

I'm not saying Trump's going to fix everything at that point by any means, but I think he'll be better off than Kamala Harris would be in office. Did you vote previously in 2020 or in 2016? So believe it or not, the only time I voted have been in my local government. I've never voted in a presidential election. Why is that? So the biggest change comes from local government, in my opinion. Like a lot of people push change, push change, push change, but they don't do anything local at that point. I mean, I think change is from ground up.

Not from top to the bottom? It's not like it's one or the other. You could vote in both of them, right? Like, I'm curious, why didn't you at 19 when you were hearing, yeah, or in 2020, the last two times Trump was running, it doesn't seem like you took...

So I'm saying, what was it that made you not participate? Honestly, I thought Trump was going to win by a landslide in 2020. Yeah, last time. I am going to vote this year at that point, but I thought he had for sure going to win last time. So you partly didn't vote because you just thought he had it in the bag? Basically, I just thought he was going to win. So what did you think about it when it happened?

I was surprised at that point. I wasn't as surprised as some people were, but I was genuinely surprised. I mean, I don't think there was like any cheating or anything done like that, but you never know. I mean, I wouldn't put it past anybody, but I'd say I was just, you ever like been watching the news and be like, oh crap, that happened? And then the next day you just kind of forgot about it?

That's how you felt about what? About the election? Kind of, sort of, yeah. I mean, like, oh, crap, he lost. And then I just went on with my day. Uh-huh. Because I can't do anything to change it. Yeah. One thing, you know, there's a lot of talk about kind of people who irregularly vote. Honestly, people like you. Yeah. And, you know, what motivates them to get involved versus what doesn't. So for you, what's made you say, I'm for sure going to vote this time when you haven't voted the last two times?

So a couple of different things. The number one reason, honestly, is because of my mom. She's African-American and a lot of black people have died for black people without the right to vote. She got mad at me last time for not voting. So, which I mean, I guess a lot of Trump is going to win. But this year I will vote to make my mom happy. And also I've learned that, I mean, one vote does make a difference. I used to believe that it didn't make a difference. But at the end of the day, I think it somewhat does now.

Is it easier to believe that your vote matters because Georgia is a swing state and is close and important in the presidential election? So I am actually a registered voter in South Carolina. Oh, okay. I'm just in Georgia for work at the moment. You're in Georgia for work. Correct. That's interesting. Okay, so would you describe, you mentioned kind of prices, would you describe your top issue as like inflation and the economy? Is that what's really driving some of your support for Trump or are there other issues that also matter? I mean, so there's a

couple other issues as well. I think Trump is an outsider and they don't like that as well. I'm a big conspiracy theorist depending on what it is, but I like conspiracy theories. And I think that him being an outsider kind of scares some people in politics who've been lifelong politicians. And especially this past, I'd say year and a half going on. I mean, I don't think Joe Biden's controlling the country anymore. So I'm kind of curious who is at this point. And

I feel like whoever is controlling the government or country at this time will not have an influence over Trump. So you're saying all of that kind of leads you, if I hear you correctly, to be more interested in someone who you think is an outsider.

Correct, at that point. Not necessarily the Republican Party, just in general. I mean, because I'm a vote Democratic. The next four years, you never know if I just like the person running. You're saying you don't consider yourself, you're saying it could be very, you could see yourself in four years voting for a Democrat for president if you like the individual person. Correct. I am not loyal to any party. Thank you so much. We really appreciate your time. That was awesome. So Caleb isn't technically a Georgia voter.

But he does represent the type of person who both campaigns will spend a lot of time targeting in the race's final weeks. Someone who's pretty sure they're going to vote, and pretty sure who they're going to vote for, but may leave it to Election Day itself. But one thing I learned from my time in Georgia is that early voting efforts help with that cause. A record 300,000 people cast ballots on the first day of early voting, according to state officials.

Which means the campaigns can focus more on the Calebs of the world, people who could be the deciding factor in a razor-close race. This is essentially what Democrats did in 2020, and what Republicans refused to do at the time, led by Trump, who often railed against early voting and encouraged his base to only vote on election day. But all that has changed now that November 2024 is around the corner.

Republicans, including Trump, are all in on early voting. And they found a message that resonates with their base. Don't vote early because you trust the system. Vote early because you don't.

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That's modern made simple. Shop now at allmodern.com. That's the run-up for Thursday, October 17th, 2024. Now, the rundown. Only three weeks to go to the election. Will you commit now to respecting and encouraging a peaceful transfer of power? Well, you had a peaceful transfer of power. On Tuesday, former President Trump did an interview with the editor-in-chief of Bloomberg News,

a peaceful transfer of power compared with Venezuela, but it was by far the most, the worst transfer of power for a long time. Thank you. I appreciate that because this is the, you know, what they like to do. This is what they like to do.

And, you know, it's very interesting. The question President Trump is, would you respect the decision? When I found out about this interview, I did a little check. He's a man that has not been a big Trump fan over the years. So I had a choice. Do I do this interview or not? I'm glad I did it. Trump would not commit to a peaceful transfer of power. If you think an election is crooked...

And VP Kamala Harris, who will be in Georgia this weekend.

did an interview with radio host Charlemagne Tha God. It's two very different visions for our nation. One mind that is about taking us forward and progress and investing in the American people, investing in their ambitions, dealing with their challenges. And the other, Donald Trump, is about taking us backward. The other is about fascism. Why can't we just say it? Yes, we can say that. Where she went further than she has before in casting Trump as an authoritarian leader.

We are 19 days from the election. See you next week. The Run-Up is reported by me, Ested Herndon, and produced by Elisa Gutierrez, Caitlin O'Keefe, and Anna Foley. It's edited by Rachel Dry and Lisa Tobin, with original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, Pat McCusker, Diane Wong, Sophia Landman, and Alicia Baitube. It was mixed by Afim Shapiro and fact-checked by Caitlin Love.

Special thanks to Paula Schumann, Sam Dolnik, Larissa Anderson, David Halfinger, Maddie Maciello, Mahima Chablani, Nick Pittman, and Jeffrey Miranda. Do you have questions about the 2024 election? Email us at therunupatnytimes.com. Or better yet, record your question using the Voice Memo app on your phone, and then send us the file. That email again is therunupatnytimes.com.

And finally, if you like the show and want to get updates on latest episodes, follow our feed wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening, y'all. From New York Times Opinion, this is The Ezra Klein Show. So it is Monday, July 29th when I'm recording this, and we are deep in the pivotal week of Vice President Harris's veepstakes. It is reported that she will make her decision by August 7th.

And as somebody who wanted to see a sort of mini primary for Democrats who made the argument that at the very least there should be a sort of contest of the vice presidential candidates and town halls and forums.

in a way that's not organized.

One person we have not heard as much from is Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer. Whitmer said she is not interested in the vice presidency. At the same time, there was reporting that she was being vetted. She denied that reporting. But Whitmer is an interesting figure for Democrats. She was considered by Joe Biden for vice president in 2020. She has won the governorship of Michigan twice by significant margins each time. And

And she made her name nationally when she was the state Senate minority leader fighting against a very anti-abortion bill. I have a lot more prepared remarks here, but I think it's important for me to just mention a couple things. When she gave a speech on the floor of the Senate revealing, which is something even her own father had not known, that she'd been raped in college. So I'm about to tell you something that I've not shared with many people in my life. But over 20 years ago, I was a victim of rape.

And thank God it didn't result in a pregnancy. Because I can't imagine going through what I went through and then having to consider what to do about an unwanted pregnancy from an attacker. And as a mother with two girls, the thought that they would ever go through something like I did keeps me up at night. I thought this was all behind me. You know how tough I can be. The thought and the memory of that still haunts me. If this were law then...

and I had become pregnant, I would not be able to have coverage because of this. How extreme, how extreme does this measure need to be? After that speech, Whitmer became a national voice on abortion, not just a Michigan voice on it. She became somebody you would see on cable news, somebody the party turned to, to think about how to talk about this issue.

She won the governorship in Michigan on a fix-a-damn-roads platform in 2018. And then in 2022, the Dobbs decision came down. She ran for re-election, putting abortion at the center of her campaign. So there's a lot, I think, to learn from Whitmer's campaigns here, both in terms of how to run and win in Michigan, which is something Democrats very much need to do this year, but also in terms of how to make elections about the thing you want them to be about.

She's also the author of a new book, True Gretch, which is now a New York Times bestseller. As always, my email, EzraKleinShow at NYTimes.com. Governor Gretchen Whitmer, welcome to the show. Thank you. I'm glad to be with you. So in 2018, you ran on one of my very favorite campaign slogans, which is Fix the Damn Roads. In the book, you tell a story about how that slogan came about. How did it come about?

So, when I decided to jump in and run for governor of Michigan, I know Michigan is a huge state, and I wanted to get into all 83 counties. I know that I'm always learning when I'm showing up and asking people what I could do that might make their life better or what's going on in their world, and

It was over and over again in response to that question, whether I was in the most rural part of the state or downtown Detroit or Grand Rapids, people would often reply, fix the damn roads. And ultimately,

ultimately, I started talking about it the same way. I think for people, it was a daily reminder of an area in their life where government's not getting the job done. And that's why it was top of mind. But it was really a conversation that I had with a woman in the Detroit Children's Hospital that crystallized everything for me. This was a mom, her son is there, he's in a brace, and she's obviously, you know, focused on her child. I

I asked her, what could I do that would make your life better if I get elected governor? And she looked me in the eye and said, fix the damn roads. And I was not expecting that response, especially in that situation. I figured she'd want to talk about health care or child care or education, something about what she was there for that day.

And so I wanted to follow up. I said, tell me more. Why is this the first thing on your mind as you think about what you need done? And she explained to me. She's from Flint, Michigan, north of Detroit, and she was driving to Detroit to go visit her son and hit a pothole that absolutely destroyed the rim on her wheel.

It sidelined her for a whole day. She had to go get her car fixed. She had to spend hundreds of dollars she wasn't planning to spend. She never got to see her son in the hospital that day. Had to pay for child care for the other two kids who were at home.

And it was just such a massive hit to her and her family, money out of rent or child care. And that's why she said, fix the damn roads. And so that conversation with Bridget Bonds is something that I include in the book because, yes, it was a great tagline for a campaign, but it was really focused on people. And it resonated with people. And it was through that act and that sometimes lost art of listening to other people that

led me to that phrase, fix the damn roads. I want to know why you think it resonated with people. So I've covered a lot of campaigns and campaign slogans are generally...

a very wide blank canvas on which people can imagine their own version of the campaign. Hope and change. Make America great again. I've heard make America America again. Putting people first, right? Most campaign slogans have a tendency to try to say everything and nothing at the same time. This was very, very narrow, very specific. Why did it work?

I think it worked because it came from the people. You know, I've been asked, what is the next campaign slogan going to be? And I would say, I don't know. I'm going to ask people, what do they need? When you do that, I think it helps give you confidence that you're focusing on the right things.

It also resonates with people. The thing that you learn when you're talking to people and you're listening to them. Fix the damn roads resonated because everyone, no matter what status you are in life or what part of the state you live in, after decades of disinvestment, everyone was feeling the pain of that. And so this was something that kind of took the politics out of the

the political conversation and said, let's just be practical. Let's do the things that are going to make your life better or easier or your business thrive fixing roads. You win that election. You come into office with a Republican legislature. They don't want to fix the damn roads, or at least they don't want to pay for fixing the damn roads. You proposed a gas tax to fund road construction. That tax was rejected, didn't even make it into a vote. So what did you do?

Well, first goal is always to find common ground and work with people. But if they're not going to be partners, then I'm going to work around them. And so we did a bond. I was able to get a lot of long overdue resources into our infrastructure. And to be honest, a lot of the Biden-Harris work and around infrastructure, I know every president talks about infrastructure week, but this presidency actually sent resources to state to do more on fixing the

the dam roads as well as dams and bridges and internet. We're doing a lot on the infrastructure front. And if someone wants to be a partner, I'll always make a seat at the table for you. But if you're not going to work with me, well, I'll roll up my sleeves and work around you. You have a line in your book where you write, quote, if there's any one motto I live by in my political career, it's get shit done. How did that become the motto?

One of the things that we know is that a chief executive doesn't just take positions on issues like folks in legislative bodies. We've got to deliver. I have had to sit at the table with Republican leaders in my first term who shared stages with the men that were plotting to kidnap and to kill me.

I can't hold a grudge. I can't throw a punch. I'm capable of it, throwing a punch, but I can't do it as the chief executive because at the end of the day, I got to get shit done. I got to get a budget done. I've got to be able to negotiate with the legislature on what that budget's priorities are. And so I think it's an executive mentality that we can't

slow down. We've got to move fast. We've got to be nimble. Sometimes we're going to get it right. Other times we're going to have to adjust course. But at the end of the day, my job is to get shit done for the people of Michigan, and that's what we do.

I was looking in to try to understand whether or not the roads got fixed, and I saw a lot of coverage of it. But I found this one Reddit thread of people in Michigan saying, well, did Governor Whitmer fix the damn roads? Everybody's saying, yeah, it's unbelievably annoying. There's construction everywhere now. Everything's getting fixed. I can't drive anywhere. So that made me think you actually did get something significant done there. The next election, you don't run on roads. You run on row. Right.

And you don't just run on it rhetorically. You're challenging a 1931 anti-abortion law on Michigan's books in court. You have a ballot measure protecting or codifying access to reproductive freedom. Tell me about how that campaign for reelection as governor, which happens after Dobbs, differed from the 2018 race and how you thought about it differently.

Well, you know, Ezra, I have been in office in Michigan for the better part of the last 25 years. And I have been on the front line making the case on behalf of women's reproductive freedom when we saw the Ruth Bader Ginsburg's passing.

I knew that there was a very real possibility that Donald Trump would make another appointment to the court. And despite what his appointees said to Congress, that they thought Roe was settled law, I didn't believe them. So I got to work with my legal team. We filed a lawsuit in Michigan to ask our court to determine under the state constitution that women have that right to privacy, that the right to choose comes from

and filed that lawsuit. And I took a lot of grief for it. A lot of people said, well, you're overreacting or it's premature. You don't have standing yet. There's no case that's been decided. And yet we forged ahead and I was really glad for it because when the Dobbs decision came down,

It was because of my lawsuit that women in Michigan had access to abortion care throughout the pending days and weeks that took us to collect signatures and put the matter before the voters. So I do talk a lot about abortion in my book because I gave a speech in 2013 and shared that I was a survivor of rape when I was in college.

10 years to that day, I was able to repeal the law that I couldn't beat down at that moment. But I do use this to remind people that

Never give up. These fights are worth having. We are on the right side of these issues. And if you feel that strongly about a right that's threatened or being taken away, we got to fight for it, even if it takes longer than it should. And so as we went into the reelect in 2022, a lot of folks were making the assumption that after the pandemic and all the heat and ugliness that came my way, and with a Democrat in the White House, I'd never get reelected.

But I was out there talking about our reproductive freedom, doing roundtables with women and our allies across the state to give people the ability to weigh in and tell me what's going on and why this right matters so much. And not only did I get reelected by almost 11 points in a state like Michigan, which is pretty remarkable, we got the Constitution amended so that we did protect our rights again.

But all this still remains in jeopardy, and that's why I'm such an enthusiastic supporter and co-chair of the Harris campaign. I know she can and has and will continue to fight for a woman's reproductive freedom.

That was a very big election. I mean, as you mentioned, you won by almost 11. The ballot measure protecting abortion rights, that won by 13. It ran even ahead of you. Democrats took control of the Michigan legislature for the first time in 40 years. So what have you learned running on reproductive rights in a swing state about which arguments work and which arguments don't work on this issue?

Well, I appreciate that question. I'll share this. I think one of the things that has become very clear to me is we have done ourselves a huge disservice by calling an abortion procedure by any other name.

So let me explain what I mean by that. When a woman goes through IVF and they implant multiple embryos to increase the likelihood that one of them will implant and ultimately end in a live birth of a baby, when you have multiple that do, I think, look as though they're going to make it,

sometimes they will do what they call selective reduction. That's an abortion. That is aborting an embryo that has been implanted to increase the likelihood that another one will survive and result in the birth of a baby. Another example is when a woman has a miscarriage at home, but it doesn't complete and she needs to go to the hospital to have that completed. Some people call that a DNC.

It's an abortion. And so I think it's really important to use the language that is all the same type of health care. And as we get around the state in 2022 and preparations for the election, these roundtables shed so much light on what was going on with people.

and I think humanized the issue for many voters. When you sit across the table and a woman shows up and she's in a wheelchair and explains and educates everyone around the table as well as the media in the room that people with disabilities are more vulnerable to sexual assault. She shared as well that if she was assaulted and it resulted in a pregnancy, she would die if she was forced to carry that pregnancy.

And so it was an eye-opener for everyone at the table. And I think it's those stories that humanize this moment for people. I sat across the table from a different woman who had seven pregnancies. She shared with everyone there, and you could tell it was very hard for her to talk about.

She had a live birth and then a miscarriage, then a miscarriage and then a live birth. And so like between every pregnancy, she had a miscarriage. So three of those pregnancies ended in miscarriage. Three of them, she had three daughters, and then she got pregnant a seventh time, even though they were using birth control. She and her husband chose to have an abortion because they have a child who's on the autism spectrum.

And they don't have the resources and bandwidth to bring another person into the family without compromising everyone's ability. And so I think that those stories matter when people can understand this is the most personal question any one of us will ever confront. It carries the biggest economic impact when and whether to bring a child into the world.

And it can only be made by that woman. And so that, I think, is the most powerful way to message on this, that it is individual liberty and health, and it should be vested in that individual. And government needs to get the heck out of it. And then the other piece of that is to remind people, the most consequential economic decision any of us will make in our lifetime is whether and when to have a child. And the only one who can know the answer to that is the individual.

How do you approach disagreement here? One of the threads running through your book is how hard you try to find the good or the point of commonality, even in people who disagree with you, fight you, insult you, plot against you at times. Obviously, people who have deep pro-life beliefs, those beliefs are held sincerely. How do you talk with them about it?

Well, that's why I raised that example of someone with IVF. I do think that there is some room for common ground, even on this issue. I hear Republicans say they don't want to take away a person's ability to access IVF, but then I watch how they vote, or I read what they write in their Project 2025. And so I do think that the average person

agrees that this is a highly personal decision. And so even if their political party is listed as Republican on their voter ID or whatever else they might identify that way, I'm going to try to engage. Because once you see the humanity involved, I think that changes everything. And I would share this too, Ezra.

In those roundtables across Michigan, I sat across from people that we invited. We didn't screen them and make sure they were all in the same place we were, but we wanted real voices at the table. And I had a number of Republicans sitting across from me who said, I am not a Democrat. I did not vote for you in 2018.

But I'm here and I'm going to help you because you're the only one fighting for this most important freedom to me and my daughters. And so that's why I'm here. And I think that that shows even on this issue, we can draw people into the conversation and maybe find common ground. I want to play you a clip of J.D. Vance talking about this issue on a podcast a couple of years ago.

okay look here's a situation let's say roe versus wade is overruled ohio ohio bans abortion um you know in 2022 or 2000 let's say 2024 and then you know every day george soros sends a 747 to columbus that's a load up disproportionately black women to get them to go have abortions in california of course the left will celebrate this as a victory for diversity

That's kind of creepy. Health justice is only exterminating black people. Something like that could, I mean, that would be a really weird turn of events that could happen. And it's like, if that happens, do you need some federal response to prevent it from happening? Because it's really creepy. And, you know, I'm pretty sympathetic to that, actually. If he was your opponent in a campaign in Michigan, how would you respond to that?

Well, it's really stunning how he combined misogyny, anti-Semitism, and racism all in one response. I mean, that is some of the worst of what we're seeing in terms of political rhetoric that is used to inflame or mislead or divert your attention from what's really at stake here.

He has many different personas, apparently. The only word he used that I agree with is creepy because I think that the strange metamorphosis of J.D. Vance is something that I can't get my head around. At the end of the day, every one of us should have the right to access the health care that we need. Every one of us should have the right to make choices about our bodies and our future, and the government should get the heck out of it.

you

Donald Trump's position is that he just wanted to return this to the states. And I'll play you a clip from him as well, because he's certainly trying to move at least the party's positioning on this. My view is now that we have abortion where everybody wanted it from a legal standpoint, the states will determine by vote or legislation or perhaps both. And whatever they decide must be the law of the land. In this case, the law of the state.

Many states will be different. Many will have a different number of weeks or some will have more conservative than others. And that's what they will be. At the end of the day, this is all about the will of the people. What's your response to that?

The will of the people was that each of us has the ability to access health care and make our own decisions. You look at J.D. Vance's own state of Ohio. The voters said overwhelmingly, stop messing with these rights. We saw that in Kansas and Kentucky and Michigan, etc. The people of this country, I think, have been sold a bill of goods. And we know that the former president has had, I don't know, 18 different positions on abortion.

He's going to say whatever he thinks is going to help him get elected in the moment. What we really deserve is someone who's going to talk straight to us, deliver for us, and fight for our freedoms. And that's why I think this matchup between Trump and Vance versus Harris and whomever she chooses is going to be stark, and it's going to be a reminder to all of us, even in states where we've secured this right, we can't for one second assume this fight is over.

Let me focus on that question of delivering. One problem Democrats have running on Roe, on Dobbs, is that the Senate filibuster makes it impossible for them to credibly promise to pass a federal law restoring Roe. When you ran in your reelection campaign, you had a ballot measure that was going to enshrine this in the Constitution. They can't really promise that. They're not going to get 60 votes in the Senate. They don't have the votes to get rid of the filibuster, at least I don't think they do. So,

In terms of making this concrete, in terms of actually promising something you can deliver, which it seems to me is a hallmark of how you run, what's your pitch for what Democrats should promise to do if they win? What would be credible and real?

Well, I know that President Biden is talking about some Supreme Court reform. I think that's interesting. He's not fleshed everything out, at least I've not seen it yet. So I can't talk a whole lot more on the substance of it. But that would have the filibuster problem too. It would. And, you know, I am not a Washington insider. I've always been based in Michigan. It's home and it's what I love. But

I do think that, you know, at this point, we're fighting on the ground and state by state. It's a terrible situation because you've got a third of the population is under some really extremely restrictive and punitive and cruel policies that make women second-class citizens. And we're fighting state by state right now. But ultimately, we

We do not want a national abortion ban, which is what I know Donald Trump has suggested as something he'd signed more than once. So I do think that this election matters. Can we undo everything in one fell swoop? Probably not because of what you've pointed out with regard to filibuster, but we at the very least need good people who are going to stop the continued erosion of these rights right now.

There's this way in which a 2018 Fix the Damn Roads campaign can feel very pragmatic and non-ideological. A Republican could want to fix the damn roads too. And the 2022 campaign on Fix the Damn Row feels much sharper edged and more ideological. But both campaigns are focused on something you could actually do. And in 2022, you had the ballot measure as well, showing that there was something really people could do.

And this feels important to me. How do you think about making the stakes of campaigns, of government, tangible and realistic to people when so many people are so cynical about whether anything actually changes depending on who gets elected?

Yeah, I think it's challenging, right? Because we do have so many candidates who will promise the moon and stars when they don't have any ability to deliver it. And I don't have a lot of patience for that, to be honest. In my first election for governor, I had some opponents who were talking about how they were going to deliver universal health care in Michigan. And I think it's a value we all have.

But I know enough about state government to know what I can and can't do. I also know enough about politics in Michigan and how the lines are drawn for our legislature, especially when we were in 2018, about what was doable and not doable. And I'm not going to promise people to do something that I know I can't accomplish. I'd rather be the person who sets optimistic expectations but realistic as well.

And I do worry about people losing faith in government because so many people exaggerate what they can accomplish. I do worry about people checking out because...

Over and over again, these people who make these fake promises don't deliver. And then they think we're all that same way and that government can never get anything done. So I think it's not just smart to manage expectations and over-deliver. I think it's responsible, too, because we can't let more people...

be frustrated with government and check out. We need people to check in more than ever. With Vice President Harris becoming the top of the ticket, we're hearing a lot of people's theories, fears, excitement about what it means to again have a woman running for president. And I was struck by a profile of you by Jen Palmieri in Vanity Fair.

where she noted that now six of Michigan's 13 House seats are held by women, the Secretary of State, the Attorney General, the Senate Majority Leader, and of course you, the Governor, are women, that the last male officeholder to newly win statewide in Michigan was Gary Peters in 2014. So does the success of female politicians in Michigan have any lessons for Democrats in this wider election, or at least how they should think or what they should or should not worry about in this election?

I do think that there is a lesson to be taken. I mean, the reason the whole world is going to be focusing on Michigan and a handful of states is because we are a microcosm of the country. We're a swing state, and we, I think, have rich diversity. And so for all of these reasons, Michigan takes on a heightened importance in elections. I think that

Always being cognizant of the fact that that is the case centers me as a leader and as a Michigander who was raised by a Republican father and a Democratic mother back in the day when you could still have a marriage of mixed political parties. All of that being said...

We've got to be able to get things done and deliver for people. And in this environment, it's very challenging. But I also think it's that much more rewarding when you're able to show, yes, we can get things done. And this is how government should work. You sort of sidestepped the question on gender itself there.

Do you think there's anything to learn in the success of women politicians in Michigan in particular? Are there different ways that one runs or they're just – I hear a lot in democratic strategist circles of, you know, what you have to do to be strong, what you have to do to –

To sidestep things that the electorate might assume about you, there's, I think, a frightened hangover from Hillary Clinton. But at the same time, like, I know the political science here, and women candidates do great. So I'm curious what the lessons of Michigan are on that specifically.

I'm so glad you reminded me that that was part of your question. I knew I missed something. You know, in Michigan, with all these women at the top in these important executive offices, all at the same time, I can tell you every single one of us was told at some point in our political journey to these offices, we can't have too many women on the ticket. Every one of us ignored that noise.

and showed that when we are on the ticket, when we work together, when we give one another legitimacy and space to show up as we are, we all win. We win literally in that election, but we as a state win too because we are now setting an agenda that is a lot more inclusive. And so when people look at this presidential matchup,

I know that Vice President Harris has got the benefit of Hillary Clinton doing this already once. No, she didn't take the office, but she ran a campaign, and that gives Vice President Harris more license to show up as she is. And people respond to that. But it was because there was someone who made the path a little bit easier, and I often think about Jennifer Granholm, who was governor of Michigan before I was.

She made it a little easier for me to show up. And so I do think that there are so many gender aspects to this upcoming election. And I hear the commentary, she's got to have a white man running mate. I don't know that I buy that, looking at our experience in Michigan. I do think she's got a lot of great people from whom to choose a running mate, and it's going to be a great ticket.

But I am mindful that our job is to make sure we keep showing up as we are and make the path for the people who come after us a little bit easier. People talk a lot about women and gender when women run, but I actually want to talk about masculinity and gender when men run because...

This election feels very strangely gendered to me with Trump and Vance. And this was true before Joe Biden stepped aside. I mean, I think if you watched Trump's night of the RNC and watched Hulk Hogan, you know, ripping his shirt and UFC lead Dana White introducing Donald Trump, there was a kind of, I mean, it felt very actually Judith Butlerian, like almost like a gender play of masculinity happening. And it seems very...

There's something strange about it this year. Vance's comments about cat ladies, about people without children not having a stake in the future of the country. It feels very sort of insecure and overdone. I've had a little bit of trouble putting my own hands around it. But for all the talk of Kamala Harris as a woman atop the ticket...

The sort of gender and family politics and presentation of Donald Trump and J.D. Vance has had a strange, I guess maybe Governor Tim Walz would call it weird, dimension to it. And I'm curious what you've made of that side of it and what you think its roots in our politics right now are.

I think that really struck me watching the Republican convention as well. I think he also walked out to it's a man's world. You know, I think that the language and all the strange, weird things that they have said over the years really ultimately are small. You know, I can't help but think about something that Bill Clinton said, which is strong and wrong beats weak and right every time.

And I thought about that in the first presidential debate. I think about that with regard to Donald Trump. But the funny thing is, in this vein, it's really small and weak. Strength is having the humility and wisdom to make a seat at the table for others, to recognize not one of us has all the answers, which is why many voices need to be at a table. Real diversity, real representation, real empowerment.

And so those visuals from that last night at the RNC, I think are going to be in sharp contrast to what I anticipate will be a joyful, happy warrior type event at the DNC. And in my book, the last chapter is called The Happy Warrior. It was advice that a debate coach gave me. And he said, the happy warrior wins every debate.

You got to be tough, but you don't have to be tough and mean. You can be tough and joyful or tough and kind at the same time. And I think that's a striking difference from what you're going to see in Chicago versus what we saw in Milwaukee.

That debate coach also had some counsel for you on what to draw on a sheet of paper to remind yourself to be a happy warrior. That counsel didn't quite take, but something else did. Do you want to say what it is that you used to remind yourself to be a happy warrior? Okay, I'll tell the editors to get ready to bleep. So during that debate, the coach also said to remind yourself to be a happy warrior. When you go into any debate and you go to the podium,

and there are blank pages there. Take your pen and write a big smiley face at the top of the blank page to remind yourself to smile and be happy. Now, like probably every person on the planet who's ever been told to smile, it has the opposite impact. So I knew writing a smiley face was going to irritate me, not make me feel joyful.

So I went to, I've been thinking about what could I write at the top that'll keep me loose and happy? I couldn't come up with anything, but I was going to a Kevin Hart concert at Little Caesars Arena in downtown Detroit. A man named Niall Lynn opened up for Kevin Hart, and he was talking about how women today are so much more empowered, right? This is stand-up in Detroit saying, back in the day, if you wanted to see your girlfriend, but she was menstruating,

she would come up with some demure kind of obtuse excuse for why you couldn't come over. She'd say something like, oh, my aunt's in town. Aunt Flo, right? So that was the code. Try not to say I'm on my period or whatever. He said, women today are way more empowered. If you say, I want to come over and see you and it's that time of the month, she'll say, you're not coming over because it's Shark Week, motherfucker.

And that cultivated the happy warrior in me. That, I thought, was so funny. It's about women's empowerment. And so on the top of my notes, I would write SW, MF to remind me to stay loose. And so before every big speech, one of my staff people, Zach, who's been with me since the campaign and through all these years as governor, always says, Governor, don't forget it's Shark Week. And as I was going to give my speech for the DNC,

Four years ago, it was virtual because of COVID. He said, Governor, don't forget it's Shark Week. And I said, oh no, it's Shark Week. And then I mouthed, motherfucker. But what I didn't anticipate was

was that the DNC, this is before I went live, by the way, I didn't anticipate the DNC would somehow let that footage out and that the world would see. That's what I was really saying. So I was initially very embarrassed and dismayed that that was public. And then people started making t-shirts and candles, and it's become this hilarious kind of call to action. And so

I do apparently love Shark Week because of what's on television, but also every week in this business is Shark Week. Yeah, I can imagine that. I also did not know that ended up showing up on a candle. I want to ask one more question on the gender dimension of the election, because you can talk about the top of the tickets, but there's also something changing down in the electorate. So the Wall Street Journal had this huge story over the weekend on the gender gap opening among voters under 30.

So in 2020, voters under 30 went in big for Joe Biden. And this story was built on a poll when Biden was still in the race. But in this poll, Biden had a 30-point lead in 2024 now among women under 30, and Trump had a 14-point lead among men under 30. The poll asked after a huge number of issues, young men had become much more conservative than young women, and

I'm curious why you think that is. This is a much bigger gap than we've seen among young people in the last couple of elections. We're seeing it in a lot of polls, not just one. I'm curious if you notice it when you're out on the trail, and I'm curious if you have a view on what is sort of shifting young men to the right.

Well, one of the things that I think is a source of pride for us is that in Michigan, we had the highest youth voter turnout in the country in 2022. I mean, it was incredible. Ezra, I went to campuses at like eight o'clock in the morning on a Friday. We didn't even offer free food and we had hundreds of people showing up.

It was really exciting. And I think my big concern going into this election is we've seen not a lot of enthusiasm among younger voters. Now, that's changed quite a bit since Kamala Harris is at the top of the ticket, and I think that's really exciting. But I do worry that

Like every age group, the divisive politics, the divisive rhetoric, the threats, the villainization of your fellow Americans is taking a deep toll on

Tell me what you're going to do for me. Don't tell me why I should be mad or hate everyone. What are you going to do for me? How are you going to make my life better? And I do think that that's what we are going to continue to focus on. But it worries me, this polarization. We've got to be able to talk to one another. Because one thing I know, there's no way you find common ground with people if you can't even have a conversation with them. And it's really hard in this climate. But there's something specific here among young men, right?

When I talk to some young men or when I read the surveys or listen to the focus groups or read the books or go on the Reddit threads, the thing I see them saying is,

is something, well, one, there's like real problems for young men. Richard Reeves and others have written about that. A lot of their sort of job and wage and mental health outcomes have gotten a lot worse. But pretty over the past couple of years, a lot of them have come to this view that, you know, the Democrats don't like them or liberals don't like them, that, you know, the future is female, that a lot of traditionally male traits are sort of seen as,

as less wanted, at least in the liberal coalition, that they feel liked by the right. And they feel disliked, looked down on, like they're sort of always under suspicion on the left, that they're sort of always like a predator waiting to happen. Now, I'm not endorsing this view, but I do see it quite a bit. And I do see the sort of frustration that

at the way they feel that to be a man is to be viewed as, you know, sort of teetering on the edge of going bad, whereas like the accomplishments of women are something to be celebrated, to be honored. Curious if you see that or if you, you know, how you would answer to somebody who does feel that, who does feel that among Democrats, among liberals, that

They're not discriminated against, but they're just not well-liked. They don't feel like they have quite a place. The future is not, in that coalition, supposed to be them anymore. I think the most powerful thing we can do is seek to understand, right? In the book, I quote Ted Lasso, who incorrectly quotes Walt Whitman, but be curious, not judgmental, essentially, is one of the important lessons that I live by and that I try to comport myself by every single day.

You know, if there are people who are feeling unincluded, we need to understand why. You know, one of the things that I recall is when I first became governor and when I was running, I was in an event and someone said, can you say Black Lives Matter? All right. We've come a long way since then, right? But obviously, there's still a ton of work to do. But people are comfortable saying Black Lives Matter. Yes. Yes.

When you say that Black Lives Matter doesn't mean that no one else's lives matter. It's an acknowledgement that there is a segment of our population that is disproportionately hurt when they have encounters with police officers. And that's why it's important that we are educating and making opportunities available and learning and holding accountable.

That is true in this moment as well. If someone is feeling unheard, unseen, excluded, we're not doing as good a job as we need to because the Democratic Party is one where every person matters and there is a path to prosperity for every person. It also recognizes that there have been historical barriers for people and we seek to eliminate those as well. You can be both.

When you took office in 2019, you circulated a one-page document on how you wanted the government to run, your administration to run. And the Washington Post reported on some of it. And I found it very interesting. It said, among other things, quote, meetings were to be held without phones and according to her, her being you, her rules of pathological punctuality, meaning if you're on time, you're late. Be present, she wrote. Don't waste time. No distractions. Tell me a bit about your philosophy of meetings.

Well, I think it all comes back to respect. It all comes back to understanding that these positions are an honor to hold, even on the hardest day. It's an honor to be the governor of Michigan. And my whole team needs to understand that as well. And that's what it's about. You know, in the end of the book, I close with a story about my grandfather, Dana P. Whitmer, who was superintendent of Pontiac schools during the time of court-ordered busing.

Pontiac was a district where they were required to bus children of color into the school district, and the white parents in the district were protesting. The Ku Klux Klan in Howell, Michigan, targeted my grandparents and bombed buses in Pontiac. My grandfather was in Time magazine protesting.

And I share that story because when everything is so heavy, we've got to look to leaders who came before us. And I'm honored to have this lineage. But also one of Dana P. Whitmer's philosophies was you show up early. If you're on time, you're late. And if you're late, you don't get into the meeting. And he would notoriously start his meetings on time and lock the doors to the meeting room. So if you weren't early, you missed the meeting and everyone knew it.

He was, you know, pathologically punctual. Just, I guess that's where I get it from. Tell me about the phone side of it, though, because I'm in a lot of meetings with phones, with laptops. Why did you say no phones in the meetings?

My personal experience has been I am a much active listener and absorb the information and process it if I got a pen and paper in front of me instead of a distraction, which a phone can bring in all sorts of information. I know some young people, and my kids included, use their technology to take their notes and

But I prefer paper and pen. I get that from my father. There's an interstitial in the book about the power and the importance of taking notes. But I really learned in law school, the way for me to best process important information is to write it down in the moment and to stay engaged. And I think technology has done some wonderful things, but it also, I think, has really cheapened our time together when it is a part of it.

Then speaking of pen and paper, always our final question. What are three books you'd recommend to the audience? Okay. I am right now reading some fiction, Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow, which is a great book. I've loved it. Burn Book by Kara Swisher is a great book. And I mean, classic To Kill a Mockingbird, my all-time favorite. Governor Gretchen Whitmer, thank you very much. Thank you.

This episode of The Ezra Klein Show is produced by our senior editor, Claire Gordon. We have fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Kate Sinclair and Mary March Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. The show's production team also includes Annie Galvin, Roland Hu, Elias Iskwith, Kristen Lin, and Amin Sahota. We have original music by Isaac Jones, audience strategy by Christina Samieluski, and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Strasser, and special thanks to Sonia Herrera.

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