The Fight for Rural America
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It's entirely online and super flexible. Fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a therapist and get started in minutes. Visit betterhelp.com slash runup today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com slash runup. How do you think candidates talk about rural issues and rural communities? How do candidates talk about rural communities? I think it's generally an afterthought.

They don't. I'm peanuts to them. I don't think they really relate. They know what counties, what states, what it takes to win. They care more about the electoral college than they do about us. I think cities win elections. I don't think we mean anything. Do we? We spent the vice presidential debate on Tuesday with a group of voters in Faribault, Minnesota. And there's a reason we were there.

This year, both parties are trying to tell a story about the importance of rural voters. After decades of Democrats losing support among voters in rural America, Kamala Harris appointed Minnesota Governor Tim Walz as her running mate. That, along with Trump's selection of Senator J.D. Vance of Hillbilly Elegy fame, kicked off a kind of battle over the story of rural America.

As told through the two vice presidential candidates. With Walls, a former high school football coach who grew up in a tiny Nebraska town, bringing folksiness to the national stage, juxtaposed against Vance's harder, angrier, anti-elite outrage on behalf of a rural America that says it's been left behind.

So ahead of Tuesday's debate, we went to Walz's former congressional district, a district he once turned blue and which is now held by a Republican, to see how the two messages were landing. How have Republicans grown their rural advantage to historic levels? And can Democrats do enough to remain competitive in 2024? But first, I wanted to talk to someone about how we got here.

From The New York Times, I'm Ested Herndon. This is The Run-Up. So to talk about these voters that each party is chasing. My name is Nicholas Jacobs, and I'm an assistant professor of government at Colby College in Waterville, Maine. I call it Nick Jacobs. Part of my focus is on the growing rural-urban divide in American politics. He and his colleague Dan Shea.

wrote a book that came out last year called The Rural Voter, The Politics of Place and the Disuniting of America. And he's a rural resident himself. I call the wonderful rural community of Vassarboro a main home. I would not live anywhere else but a rural community. I raised my family in a rural community, and that is a choice I am privileged to make. He and Dan surveyed more than 10,000 voters in rural America for their book.

trying to understand their views. In terms of their partisanship, ruralness and a rural identity is becoming nationalized. And part of that nationalization is that wherever in that vast swath of rural America you are, the likelihood has been year over year for about the last 40 years that

you are increasingly drawn to Republican candidates, particularly at the top of the ticket. That shift, Nick says, means that these voters, who make up about 20% of the electorate, have now become a hugely significant voting bloc, particularly for Republican presidential candidates. Rural voters made up a larger share of Donald Trump's 2020 coalition than Black voters did for Democrats.

than the youth did for Democrats. They are almost as important to Republicans, or rural voters were almost as important to Donald Trump's win in 2016 and his coalition in 2020.

as union voters were to Democrats. Interesting. It's interesting to think about the communities as a union for Republicans. Yeah. One question I had is also like how much does this map on to racial changes? How much does this map on to some of the things I think we're more familiar with in terms of the political realignments of a post-1960s era? Is something different happening that's causing an even greater divide?

Racial context is, I think, one of those trickier ones. Some other really interesting work that has tried to track this historically has come out and said that rural and urban divide is primarily driven by white rural voters.

who today make up around 80 to 75 percent of the rural populations. And so I think that's one argument to be made, is that when we talk about a rural and urban divide, maybe what we're really talking about is a white rural divide. And rural voters are a group that increasingly sees ruralness as an identity. We find three characteristics of that identity that are more important than others.

One, it's a different way of thinking about the economy than we often think about. It's much less individualistic. Deep concerns about the well-being of my community.

There are parts of this rural identity that are inseparable from attitudes towards government, right? To be rural is to feel that government has treated rural communities in a particular way, in a negative way. And so there is a grievance that is a part of that identity. At the same time, there's enormous cultural pride in being rural, right?

despite all the talk we hear about rural poverty and as important as rural poverty is,

When we ask people, would you leave rural America, they say no, because it's a part of themselves and they love living in rural America. There is also a shared belief of what contributed to how things got this way. I can tell you when you go into many parts of rural America, they know a five-letter policy, and it's NAFTA. They know who signed NAFTA, and they have a very clear understanding of

Maybe it's wrong, maybe it's right, but they have a very clear narrative of how NAFTA affected their community. And it's not only that they lost, right? Not only was it that their community that lost, their mill that shut down, right? And in some of these communities, it is the single mill. It is the single factory. It was done to their detriment and to somebody else's benefit. It would felt zero sum.

When you're talking about a group of people who do not feel heard, that they lack influence, that their perspective is not respected or not included when it comes to government decision-making, some of that resistance is, of course, driven by core values, a principled belief in limited government. But some of that resistance is also driven by the belief that when government comes in to fix your problems—

It's going to make things worse. And Nick says Republican politicians did a better job of recognizing the growing sense of being left behind that rural voters were feeling and trying to speak to it. Undeniably, you do see this rhetorical strategy that emphasizes...

a sort of a lost America throughout the late 1980s and through the 1990s. There's talk of a real America. Pat Buchanan is on the side of a sort of nascent conservative populism, hell-bent on an America first, with George W. Bush, a Texan who puts on rural airs, right? Bush on the ranch becomes a popular image.

Doubling down with Sarah Palin as the vice president with Hockey Moms in 2008. The party that was country club chamber of commerce elites becomes the party that likes to stylize itself as the throw on your boots, get in the mud, go chop some wood, even if it's not true. And then, of course, came Trump.

Nick says Trump did better with these voters than any president ever. 10 to 15 points better than Ronald Reagan. 5 to 10 points better than Franklin Roosevelt. The guy that has done the best in rural America in history.

makes no pretensions of being rural, right? He doesn't pretend at all. In fact, he kind of lays it on thick in the other direction. That's a curious way in which rural identity politics manifests itself, because we often think that the trick to identity politics is to out-identity the other person.

He wasn't rural. He didn't pretend to be rural. He didn't lean over to the kid at the rally and say, you catch a big one lately, son. But he was authentic. And I think that had an appeal among a lot of people that felt like their own way of life was precarious or under assault. And I think that was true in rural parts, as it was among the millions of Trump voters in non-rural parts. Mm-hmm.

And what about the Democratic side of the story? So we see that trend in rural partisanship begin to take off for Republicans in 1980. It almost becomes a lost cause midway through the Obama administration.

And by the time you get to 2016, right, and it's in the aftermath of the 2016 election that we all start talking about the rural-urban divide, even though it had been percolating for nearly 30 years, that it almost seems like the Democrats not only have given up on rural areas, but almost seem to openly celebrate the fact that they do so poorly in rural areas.

Hillary Clinton, in the aftermath of her loss, goes on a speaking tour and openly celebrates the fact that she won the places that were dynamic moving ahead. Right. Oh, I forgot about this quote. Yeah. Reed Urban. And was almost gleeful that she lost the places that were moving behind. That is a mentality that

has been and maybe is still alive and well in the Democratic Party. Even after Hillary Clinton said all those things, Chuck Schumer says every voter lost in western Pennsylvania, read the rural part of western Pennsylvania, is two voters we're going to pick up in the suburbs. Yeah, theoretically, they could say we're going to lose less voters in western Pennsylvania. But you're outlining a Democratic Party that's kind of said,

We're okay with these losses because we're thinking about something else or because these people are not people we can contort to win. I think there is a mentality that has made up its mind on that question, that these are voters that cannot be won over. They're irrational. They're extremists. They've been radicalized. And boy, that isn't to deny that there isn't the occasional rabble rouser out here in the countryside saying,

but to just write off one-fifth of the electorate as irredeemable. I don't know if there's another segment of the electorate that we do that with, in all honesty, like a legitimate segment of the electorate. And yet, that seemed to be commonplace with thinking about rural voters. Should we think about the selection of walls, do you think, as the Democrats trying to now give a message to rural voters? And if so, what is that message?

I think Walls represents this really interesting moment in the rural and urban divide. I think you are seeing this

fascinating contrast between the two parties over what rural is and how we should think about rural in a larger conservative movement and in a larger progressive movement. And that's something that the Democratic Party, at least in presidential politics, hasn't talked about in over 20 years. And so I don't think we overplay it by thinking about what it means to

for rural progressivism and the Rural Democratic Party. I don't know what was on the mind of the Harris team when they selected Walz. You know, Walz represented a pretty rural district during his time in Congress, and he now is the leader of a state in which ruralness is a deep part of their identity. Walz has not recently done really well in the rural parts of Minnesota.

And that, on its own, wouldn't be unusual. You know, he is a Democrat. We are talking about a rural and urban divide. Except that compared to other Democrats in his state, compared to other Democrats that were on the same ticket as him in the same election year, there were Democrats that did really well in the rural parts of Minnesota. Amy Klobuchar wins deep into rural Minnesota, wins those communities that do not choose walls.

I am not denying Walls' rootedness in a rural community, his love for rural communities. I'm simply pointing out the fact that when rural people were given a choice, there were actually other Democrats on the same ticket who they voted yes for, but they didn't vote for Walls. And what do we know about Vance? How has he performed in these communities and among these voters? So with Vance, we turn to rural Ohio and

When you compare Vance's run for Senate, he wins rural Ohio. He doesn't do as well in rural Ohio as Donald Trump does. And part of that is because he was going up against a Democrat, Tim Ryan, who campaigned deeply in rural Ohio, who tapped into this sense of civic pride that rural people feel.

And, you know, Ryan doesn't win. Vance does win statewide. A majority of Vance's Senate coalition comes from urban and suburban Ohio. But there was something about Ryan that cut into Vance's could-be rural electorate, a rural electorate that came out for Trump that he didn't do as well. So neither J.D. Vance nor Tim Walz has been an overwhelming favorite of rural voters in their home states.

And Nick thinks there's a larger way in which politicians as a whole are generally failing to capture the full picture of rural voters. And I think you see that in the current presidential race, right? You see these like two competing visions of like what rural should be. Like rural is the pull yourself up from your bootstraps, poverty in Appalachia, you know, you made it on your own, right?

which is given to us by Vance, versus a sort of down-home neighborliness, being kind to one another. Mind your own damn business, which is being given to us by Walls. And I actually find that most rural people would feel stuck in the middle when given those two options. To be rural isn't to be boiled down to eating hot dish and wearing a camo hat.

And being rural is not about being angry and bitter and having this unreflective belief and pull yourself up by your bootstraps mentality. When I think about the values of rural people and what I find through my research and what other scholars have found throughout your research is that those two stereotypes, those two images...

which dominate our politics, it dominates our media portrayals. It speaks very little to how rural people view themselves. And when you ask rural people, do you feel like you're represented in those depictions? Either one, they will say no.

And so what's interesting is at the same time that you have these stylized images of ruralness that are being constructed for you, you see these shifts in partisanship, but you don't see any greater satisfaction with how the political system is working. You don't see any leaps and bounds, differences in whether or not rural people feel like their vote is going to make a difference anymore.

And lost in a lot of this conversation about Donald Trump and the hold he has on rural communities and lost in a lot of this conversation of the rural voter generally is that even though we see these sharp partisan divides, that doesn't say anything about satisfaction with the political system.

That doesn't say anything about trust in government. And the most shocking figures that we discuss in our book are not the ones that show a growing divide in vote share between rural and urban areas, but the growing divide in trust. Not just trust in government, but trust in your average American. I hear that. And I appreciate you kind of going through this with me. Thank you so much. It's a pleasure speaking with you.

After the break, my colleague Caitlin and I head to Minnesota to find out how some of these messages are being received in Tim Walz's former congressional district. Are you dreading another political cycle heavy on punditry and light on substance? Liberties is a journal of consequence, essays of ideas to inspire and lead our culture, our politics. Mario Vargas Llosa called Liberties a triumph for freedom of thought. Ralph Fiennes said, Liberties opened my mind to subjects unfamiliar and points of view unexpected. I

I am hooked. Engage with today's brightest minds. Subscribe now at libertiesjournal.com forward slash run-up or at your favorite bookseller. That's libertiesjournal.com slash run-up. This fall at the 92nd Street Y New York, experience talks with luminaries like Andrew Garfield, Law Roach, and Saoirse Ronan. Enjoy groundbreaking dance performances by The Bang Group and Omar Roman De Jesus. Delight in concerts featuring international stars like Heather Headley and Jeremy Deng.

Don't miss out. See the full lineup and grab your tickets at 92ny.org. The season starts with 92NY. Hi, how are you? Welcome to New York. I'm Jennifer. I'm Jennifer. Nice to meet you. On Tuesday evening, we joined a viewing party in Faribault, Minnesota.

a town of about 25,000 that went for Trump in 2020. A lot of people will be coming in between now and 8 o'clock. They're just going to be coming in whenever. Does that make sense? Jennifer, who was hosting the watch party, told us ahead of time that people of all political leanings would be there. So we found some couches and started chatting with people. Hi. How are you doing? Good. Good. Nice to meet you. This is Caitlin. Hi. Caitlin. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you.

Like Anne and Carl Voss. Can you tell me, have you been in Faribault for a while? Are you in this area? We were both born and raised here. Oh, okay. So we're native. They were in their 70s and had owned a flooring company in town. Do you have a party that you identify with? Are you Democrats, Republicans? No.

I'm a Democrat. You're a Democrat. Lifelong. Lifelong. Have you, so I imagine this may not be your first time voting for Tim Walz. That's right. Coming up in November. Have you ever met him before? Yes. Tell me what you thought. Well, he's just like he is on television. He's a really regular guy. Very approachable. I'd say he's even more regular than...

than he is on 10 of them. I mean, when you get to be the vice presidential candidate, you kind of got to pump it up a couple of notches from when you're being the governor in Minnesota. But he's always had that folksy style, and that is who he is. I mean, the way he talks...

how he articulates things, how he thinks. He's just all Minnesotan. I mean, he's stuck with being that. I don't think he's ever going to be able to get out of it. When you see him, do you look at that and you say, hey, that's a Minnesotan? Well, I think so. I just like the fact that you feel like you could talk to him. You feel like you might know someone like him. He makes people comfortable.

And he's happy to go out and shake hands and greet people. One question I have is Democrats have done worse and worse in rural communities and in smaller communities over the years. And I'm sure that's something that you all have probably felt.

We're the minority. Yeah. We're the minority. Yeah, I'm sure the people around you have gone from being more mixed to just being increasingly Republican, too. Can you tell me what that's been like, and what do you think is driving that shift? Well, I think partly it's bad information. I think in our community, we have a pretty good number of immigrants, and that's hard for some people because maybe they haven't left the city limits yet.

And so the face of Faribault looks different. But I just, I worry about the rural area because a lot of these folks work in processing, food processing. They also work on dairy farms. And they also work in health care and assisted living, senior care. I don't know if people get deported, how they think they're going to have people to work on their farm, people to work in their small towns. But I don't know that some people...

Other Democrats spoke to that same sense of division. They do. And very polarized. And both sides have very strong feelings. Yeah, tensions are high.

more rural areas around here are Trumpland. Yeah. I'm curious, like,

Why do we think that is? And is there anything they can do to reverse that? Lobotomies. We also met people who were still deciding about November. Like Jane Spooner. She told us what she likes about living there.

I think more people are just more approachable. They're more apt to smile at you and say hi. I don't always get that in the metro area. You kind of feel like you're just a number up there.

And you kind of get to know people. You see the same cashier at the grocery store, and they kind of get to know who you are. And then you see them someplace else. And they're like, well, how are you today? So it's just like you're kind of seen out of place. I work for a local greenhouse in the spring, and so I wait on a lot of customers there that I end up...

they serve me at another store. So it's just kind of, you have just more of that camaraderie, I think, you know, that more familiarity with people. Can you tell me, like, are you, have you been a Democrat, Republican, Independent? Have you identified with a party throughout your time? I identify as a Republican. What would you say were the issues that made you more identify with Republicans? What was the, is there a specific thing? I think, you know, I just saw a lot of people taking advantage of a lot of things, you know, just as far as the Democrats, they just seem to be

you know, their social programs and their social programs. I just saw people taking advantage of it a little bit. I mean, I worked really hard. I was a single mom for a number of years. And they told me my car was six months too new and I made $75 a month too much to qualify even for food stamps. And I had to take a second job, you know. But they told me if I quit my job, I would get this, this, and this. So they made it too easy for me and I just didn't want to...

show my kids that that was the easy way out. Can we talk more specifically about the last couple years? Did you vote for Trump in 2016 and 2020? I did, yes. And, you know, that's been someone who's shifted the Republican Party a lot and specifically has grown its appeal in rural communities, small communities. It's kind of a funny match that this kind of New York guy has become such a big figure in these rural communities. I guess one question I had is like, why do you think that is?

You know, sometimes I think people are just away from the career politicians. They're tired of the career politicians. And I'm not saying that Trump is the whole answer. It's just the party in and of itself. I'm really struggling with it. I'm struggling with the rhetoric that's going on within politics today. And I'm really struggling with who to vote for just because of Trump's demeanor. Sometimes the way that he presents his message, I think, is...

is where I struggle a little bit. Is there anything that's specifically changed from last election to now to make you more undecided? I think when he came out and just was so upset over the fact that he felt that he won because the voting was rigged. Yeah, the rigged election stuff. The rigged election thing. And it was just like...

I serve as an election judge, so I guess maybe it resonated with me a little bit, and I know the steps that we go through, and I know that I'm looking at a small town, a small community, the way that we run our elections. I don't know what goes on in a bigger city. Is it happening out there? I'm sure it probably is, but I think it just created even more division, I think, overall between parties and between...

the Americans. And I think that's what's been frustrating these years that we've, you know, that's happened. It's interesting because you hear people blame different types of people for the cause of that break of unity. For you, is there something specific that you think, or is there a politician? Is there a party? Do you think Trump's a part of that? Who do you blame for that? I don't know who to blame. You know, I think it's just, it just becomes kind of like,

a snowball starting at the top of a mountain and it just starts and it just takes that one person to start it and as it rolls down the hill it just gets bigger and bigger because you find like-minded people and you just start to... Well, let me ask it a different way. How do you think you'll end up making your decision then?

Because, you know, Trump is Trump, you know? He's not going to change. I don't know if he's going to. Yeah, he's, you know. So what are the factors you're looking to to make decisions? Is it something like tonight? Is it something like, like, where do you think? I really kind of want to see how Vance and Walls handle one another. The presidential debates lately have just been about, you know,

He's a liar. He's a crook. You know, that's not what I want to hear. I want to hear what you're going to do for us. What are you going to bring us back to the day when we reached across the aisle and we could all work together? I want to see that they become respectful of one another. Well, I'm curious about laws. I mean, that's your current governor. That's someone who has represented, you know, the first congressional district in Minnesota where we are. Is there anything about laws

The Democratic ticket that could appeal to you this time? Are you really having a choice between whether you're going to vote for Trump or just not vote? I guess I'm looking at it for the fact that our vice president is really kind of the feeder program to become the next president in four years. As far as Governor Walz, I have a few issues with him. I'm not overly fond of him, but I just want to see how he...

blends across the aisle with. Can you tell me the issues you have with him? Is there something that has stuck out? I don't. I think the Feed My Starving Children here in Minnesota, the $250 million gap that happened there, a $17 billion surplus that could have probably been handled a little bit better. And then there's small issues like Minnesota still taxes Social Security recipients, and I'm on Social Security. But can I just make sure I have it clear? Sure.

you're deciding whether to vote for Trump. If he doesn't change, if Pence doesn't move you, what would be your option then? If it doesn't seem like the Democrats are an option. I really have to see what... There has to be something specific that he comes out. And I just really want to see how they...

they react back and forth. And I might not walk away even having a decision yet tonight. Great. Well, let's check in on it. All right. Let's go. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

The debate started. We all watched for a bit. And after a little while, we checked in with someone else at the party. Can you tell me your name and a little bit about yourself? Yeah, my name is Jack. Jack Gravois. I'm 25 years old, born and raised in Faribault, Minnesota. I'm a lawyer.

Yeah, I work in sales now up in Bloomington, right outside of the Twin Cities. And as of right now, I'm currently undecided. Jack gave us his first impressions. One thing I do like about this debate compared to previous ones, even recently, is it seems like they're talking about the right things. Like, you guys remember when Biden was still running, when they started talking about golf and stupid things like that? I'll never forget that.

So that's one thing I do like about this debate so far. It seems like regardless of what you believe about what they're talking about, they're at least talking about it, right? They're not getting distracted. They're not jabbing each other, talking about their golf handicap. You mentioned how Vance was performing a little better than you expected. Can you just explain that a little bit?

I don't know, coming into this debate, I kind of always thought Vance was kind of just Trump's puppet, you know? I'm not saying this debate, you know, 20 minutes in, changes that. But I do think he's coming off better than I thought. Walls is about, I mean, he's been our governor for years. So I know what I'm going to get with Tim Walls, you know? Like, how do you feel about what you know about Walls? I like Walls. I think he's a good guy. You know, I think he's been a good representative of our state. He's done some good things.

He's also done some things that I've massively disagreed with. Is there anything you can point to on both sides of that coin or something that jumps out? I think the way that he handled the riots in 2020, I disagreed with. I felt that they were a bit too loose on it. I wasn't anti the movement. I wasn't anti the protests. But when things got ugly...

and they started burning down police stations. That's definitely my biggest issue with Wallace. And I know it's more than just him, but that's my biggest issue. He was the governor of the state at the time, and you just thought that there was a little, it was a different way that could have been handled. Yeah, I thought the way he handled COVID too was a little extreme. Yeah.

you know, with some of the restrictions he put on restaurants. It was a bit extreme. It's interesting because so much of his brand is, you know, small town. Yeah. And I think that's legitimate, right? You know, that's who he is. That's where he comes from. And that's one of the things I actually do like about him. He doesn't feel like a, you know, a big politician. He doesn't feel like a Donald Trump, right? He feels very small town. He resonates with people like me, I think. You know, obviously me being from Minnesota, there's going to have to have been a bonus there because, you know, he's one of us, quote unquote. Yeah.

But yeah, that's one of the things I do like about Wallace is I do think he cares. I think for the most part, he cares about the right things. Yeah. That's kind of how I feel about him. I think he's a good guy. You know, I think both of them are good people. Can you tell me who you voted for in 2020? In 2020, I did not vote. You did not vote. I was 21 years old and I was in college and I had COVID. Listen, you don't have to justify it. You can do whatever you want. Yeah.

Looking back, I think you should vote. I disagree with the choice I made. But at that time, I just didn't really care. And it was less because I didn't care about politics or our country.

I just, you don't care about a lot when you're a sophomore in college, you know? So this is going to be your first presidential election? Yeah. Yeah, because in 16, I was 17. So yeah, this will be my first one. Okay, cool. I'll ask you the same question I ask a lot of folks who are undecided. Like, do you know when and how you're going to make that decision? Short answer? I don't know how. There's things I agree with on both sides, right? I care about our economy. I,

I care about a strong border, you know, but I also really care about, you know, women's reproductive rights. I straight up disagreed with Donald Trump overturning Roe v. Wade. I care about the climate, you know, I care about things like that. So it's,

What's going to come down to me probably is at that moment, what do I care about a little bit more? That's probably what's going to guide me that way. Which one do I care a little bit more about? Yeah, the hard part with a guy like me who's in the middle and, you know, I don't completely align with the Republican Party, but I also don't completely align with the Democratic Party.

It's hard because you kind of have to prioritize certain views over others. When I make my decision... There's not a ton of, like, tough-on-immigration, pro-climate candidates. Yeah, right. You know, like, there's not a ton of those people. It's tough because, yeah, there's things that Trump did that I liked, right? Like, I think he was good for the economy. I liked how he was, you know, strong in foreign policy and...

I kind of like that part of him, but I also really disliked... I mean, honestly, I thought Trump was a... I'm trying not to swear, but I thought he was kind of a... You know what I'm trying to say. You could actually swear, too. I thought he was a dick. Okay. I thought Trump was a dick. Like, I do think there's something to be said about being a good person, right? Like, there's something to be said about, you know, being kind of the, quote-unquote, face of this country. And I think that's something that...

Donald Trump wasn't great at, kind of put a bad face to the country. Last piece for right now is I kind of get how you feel about Trump, but when we think about Harris, like, what is your sense of Harris? Because that feels like a big factor in this decision. If you kind of know how you feel about Trump and the issues, it kind of feels like you're weighing it against her, and I'm wondering how you feel about her. How I feel about Kamala? Yeah. I will say I do like Kamala better than I like Joe Biden. And, um... Why? I think Kamala is...

Okay, so let me rephrase that. I like Joe Biden. I thought he was a good man.

I thought he was a bit unfit for office. You know, cognitively, to be completely honest with you, if this was still Biden versus Trump, I would vote for Trump. And I would say that right now. With Kamala, I don't know a whole lot about her. I do like her, though. Did you watch the debate? I did watch the debate, yeah. What did you think of how she did? I thought she did well. Yeah, I thought she did well. I thought she did better than him in terms of... Again, a lot of the issues I have with Trump is just the way he acts, right? I think he gets in his own way a lot of time. You know, I think one of Kamala's strengths is I do think that she's a strong...

firm presence. You know, when she says stuff, you know, I feel like she believes it, right? What's stopping you then from saying, okay, Harris did well in the last debate. I agree with Democrats on these things. And Donald Trump kind of gives, makes me uncomfortable personality leadership wise. I'm going to vote for the Democrat. What's stopping you from saying that? Policy. You know, I do think... You go back to those two issues, econ and immigration. Exactly. It's a little bit for me, it's weighing, you know,

How much do I care about, you know, the policy and the black and white and forget about all the other stuff like the face, the personality, the, you know, division that it might bring throughout the country. And how much do I care about the feels, right? You know, feeling better about a candidate, you know,

I think that it's also about voting for a change. You know, I think Kamala could be a little bit of an extension of Biden. Not that she won't do things her way and change things. But, you know, when you're looking at an incumbent versus, you know, someone running, there's that factor of it, too. It's like, well, do I like the way things are now currently? And if the answer is an emphatic no, maybe I'd vote for, you know, the person running. Thank you so much. Yeah, absolutely.

During the first commercial break, we wanted to get a sense of the larger group sentiment and how the debate was hitting folks. I love it. Hey, y'all. Thanks so much for letting us talk about some political opinions. We're really happy to be here. We're just made sure to come here partially because we wanted to be in Tim Walsh's old congressional district.

And it's been great talking to people individually. We haven't been able to talk to everyone, though, so I wanted to ask a couple group questions. Is there a moment that stuck out to someone so far? If you could just raise your hand and let me know, we would love to hear it. Not to put anyone on the spot. Putting everybody on the spot. I just think it was so nice to actually have a classy debate. I thought that was refreshing and new, maybe. It does stick out. The tone's much different than the last couple debates we've seen. Yes.

I just appreciate that they're being respectful. Yeah? Yeah, right? Is that most people's big takeaway? Yes. How do you think your governor's doing? Great. I don't know. I just don't think he's coming across. He's always been said that he's such a good debater, and I'm not seeing that. He seemed real nervous at first. What have you thought about J.D. Vance? It's kind of his big introduction. Thank you.

Seems a little smoother. Oh yeah, very articulate. I think he's articulating his point very well. One question we have for We've Been Asking People is specifically about smaller towns or rural communities. Obviously these are two people who have both their political stories start in smaller towns. We're here in Faribault. I'm interested, is there any moment in here that you all have thought, oh, that looks and sounds like us and smaller communities? Or is there things you wish they talked about more that would better highlight that?

I would like it if they would address education a little bit more and educate our youth and what we can do for them better. College expenses. Yeah. I wish they would like talk about how to help small businesses and the retail economy, retail markets, how post COVID there's just everything shutting down. How do you bring that back?

I mean, Walmart has taken over. Amazon has taken over. We need to stop these monopolies and let the creators, the creative people, and the small businesses open up shops again. Stop corporate capture. Yes. Of our government and our people. Our farms, everything. If I could just add one thing. For those of us that are old enough to start paying attention to politics in the 1980s,

Candidates used to run to their extreme on their base to get the presidential nomination. They got their base, they got their Republicans, they got their Democrats in late summer. And then they would move back to the center by election time to draw in the popular vote. The thing that has now changed in this society

They are still out on the edges. No one's coming back. You ask a question about, is this anybody like us? Not really. They are still so far out there. It's not Faribault. It's just not. Faribault is middle of the road. Yeah, everybody is. Most people are a little more in the middle. But yet our voices have been silenced somehow. We have no voice. Thank you all so much for that. I want to make sure we can listen to some more of it, and then we'll grab some more folks at the end. But we really appreciate you all. Thank you.

A little later... My name is Jana. We connected with Jana Vescomi-Reese. And what do you do? I own a restaurant. I own a few buildings downtown. I was on our city council for eight years. I raised my family here. What's your favorite part about Faribault? I like the people. You know, here people will do things genuinely well.

you know, because we get caught in the ditches a lot. So somebody's got to push out. So you always want to make sure you don't burn bridges. You know, people here just try to have a good path, create good karma. Yeah.

You mentioned a fact to us earlier that really stuck out, which is that you said that you have voted for every president since you've been 18. Can you just literally take me through when that started and who you voted for? No, I can't. I just know that every time I voted for somebody, they got elected. And it's been Democrat, Republican, Democrat, Republican. Well, let's work our way backwards. So in 2020, you voted for Biden. Did you vote for Biden? I did. And in 2016, did you vote for Trump? I did.

And then the two times before that, you voted for Obama? I did. Okay. I did Clinton. I did Bush. And Bush too? Yeah. You know, so I really considered myself independent. Yeah. Tell me what led you to vote for Donald Trump in 2016. Because I gave Obama two terms to do what I thought he was going to do, which was unite the country. And I felt like he divided it. You know, unity is not making things worse. Unity is calling it out and having solutions. Okay.

You know, so creating divisiveness doesn't solve problems, it only brings them to light. Is there something that you point to as a sign of the divisiveness of the Obama era? I just felt it. You just felt it was getting more and more... I did because I was called out things that I never considered myself to be. Just because I'm Caucasian doesn't mean I'm racist. And so many times people made that assumption.

But again, you don't know how I was raised and the people that are in my family. You don't know my background. You know, so to make those assumptions are wrong on your part. Got it. So that leads to Trump in 2016. Yeah. I found Trump maybe being divisive, especially divisive, but he talked about things that nobody else would. Well, before we get there again, so you voted for Biden in 2020. I did. Yeah.

Now, you mentioned how this time, though, you feel like the pendulum has swung a lot from 2020 to now. So now take me through what has really changed for you over the last couple of years. Immigration, the border security. Every day I got somebody asking me for a job here. Every single day. Do not speak.

speak English. I feel terrible for them. I can't care for them. But our community was already hit with a great deal. You know, we had a huge flux of refugees into our community. It dropped our medium income. I'm all about caring for people, but tell me how it's going to happen. And that shift, specifically on immigration around here, has been the biggest driver for you? That's one of them, yeah. And two, border is a big one, letting folks into this country without a plan, not talking about our debt.

creating more. To me, it's irresponsible on both sides. You know, it's interesting because you sound somewhat like the people we were talking to earlier who kind of expressed a dissatisfaction with the status quo and said part of their problem with Harris is that she feels like it would just be a continuation of what Biden is doing. Is that what I hear you say? Absolutely. She's had three, four years to do whatever it is that she thought was important. Well, what have you done?

If I had that position, I was on city council for eight years. There's a list of things I got done for this community. What has she done?

What has she done? And now she's representing us without any election. Nobody picked her. She was picked by them. You know, so again, if I was going to choose somebody, I feel like I would be more involved if we had a process to get there. But we didn't have a process. And we've not really heard much about what she, what's her plan. But for you, I'm curious, like, in the previous times, have you been going through presidential elections? Have you been decided this early?

Are you? Are you decided? Yeah, no. Yeah. It sounds like you're voting for Trump, right? Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So I'm saying... Who decided you?

My debt? My food costs? My labor costs? Her presidential pick? Her sidekick coming from my state and what he's done to my business? So Walls made you less likely to vote for the Harris pick? Yeah, because now I know what direction we're going. We're even going even more left. What happened to being in the middle? Do you worry about the level of divisiveness a Trump administration could bring? Absolutely. But it's the same thing. No matter who gets elected. But you just don't feel like

Either way, that's coming. You know what? There's a lot of things I think need to be done. And I don't feel like her administration has the ambition to do it. Got it. Okay, the Trump administration, they got nothing to lose. They have, you know, they're not trying to make friends. They're trying to make good decisions. All change is going to create havoc. Somebody's not going to be happy with it. Who's willing to stick their neck out for change? I don't think it's her.

You're saying that's the thing you feel most common. Because it's interesting because I can see you going from party to party but looking for change each time. I'm looking for a candidate. You know, I look for people that I think are strong and that have my values and things that are going to make a difference, I think. I do want to see somebody that's willing to take risks. But if she was going to take risks, she would have done it in the last three years. I don't agree with how they handled the abortion issue.

I'm a woman. It should be blanketed equally across the United States. So it's the one thing I disagree with with that party. So you're talking about with Republicans. You actually do wish that there was things like Roe v. Wade still in place. It should have been on a federal level blanketing women's rights. Okay, that I agree with. So I don't fit into a camp very well. No, I like folks like this because it allows us to ask these type of questions. So the Democrats have definitely seemed to have lost you over the last couple years. Do you think that loss is permanent?

It depends on if they make things more important. Energy independence is important to me. Making sure our food is safe is important to me. Making sure the education of our children is not focused around our gender at eight years old. You know, it's already confusing to be somebody grown up right now. We don't need to make it more confusing. Again, I never saw this side of the left before. And again, they're only running on the platforms that other people have decided for them. But I'm not in that camp anymore.

I might have been back in the 80s and 90s, but I'm not there. My priority is not that. That makes sense to me. Thank you so much. We really appreciate your time. And thank you for sticking around to have a more detailed conversation. We appreciate it. As the debate ended, people started heading out.

We caught Jane, the undecided voter we talked to earlier as she was leaving. Just give us your impressions of the debate and if anything stuck out to you. Sure. I certainly liked watching this one a lot better. I feel that you had an opportunity to hear them speak a little. I thought they were very respectful for one another. Tim Walz has always been deemed as a great debater.

I didn't see that in him tonight. I do like J.D. Vance, and so I think my decision is a little clearer now that I will probably lean to my party. Vance is reassured. Made you feel a little better about Trump. I think he's the type of individual that might be able to keep Trump in check a little bit more. I think during Biden's administration, Kamala Harris...

She was never very present in things that she just always seemed to be

just kind of like, oh, I'm the token woman on the cabinet. You know, like Mike Pence was even just kind of a figurehead. And I think J.D. Vance is going to probably be a little bit more, make more appearances and have a little bit more impact on what Trump decides to do and maybe calm him down a little bit. So, yeah, it did make my decision a little bit easier today. Yeah.

That's great. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. We'll let you go. We really appreciate it. At the end of the evening, it seemed clear that to no one's surprise, the VP debate didn't change much. The people who already liked Tim Walz, their governor and former congressman, still liked him. And we're proud to see him on that stage.

And while people had been impressed with Vance, his demeanor and respectful tone, it seemed like the only people moved by his performance were people who are already considering voting for Donald Trump and just needed some extra reassurance.

But what was also clear is that Trump, more than Vance, Walz, or Kamala Harris, is still seen as the champion for the rural voter and their interests, despite his origin in New York City or his inconsistent record on things like gun rights and abortion. Because on the biggest issues that matter to this group, like the economy and immigration, Trump spoke most directly to their values, which mattered enough

to set any concerns about divisiveness aside. Hi, I'm Robert Vinluen from New York Times Games. I'm here talking to people about Wordle and showing them this new feature. You all play Wordle? Yeah. I have something exciting to show you. Oh, okay. It's the Wordle Archive.

- Oh! - So if I miss it, I can like go back. - 100%. - Oh, that's sick. - So now you can play every wordle that has ever existed. There's like a thousand puzzles. - Oh my god, I love it. - Actually, that's really great. - What date would you pick? - May 17th. - Okay. - That's her birthday.

What are some of your, like, habits for playing Wordle? I wake up, I make a cup of coffee, I do the Wordle, and I send it to my friends in a group chat. Amazing. Thanks so much for coming by and talking to us and playing. New York Times game subscribers can now access the entire Wordle archive. Find out more at nytimes.com slash games. You don't understand how much Wordle means to us. We need to take a selfie. That's the run-up for Thursday, October 3rd, 2024. And now, the rundown.

In the wake of Hurricane Helene, former President Donald Trump visited Georgia on Monday, praising Governor Brian Kemp. He's working hard around the clock. And criticizing the Biden administration's storm response. Vice President Harris also traveled to Georgia Wednesday to survey the damage and highlight the administration's recovery efforts.

Earlier this week, the Harris campaign continued its strategy of focusing on nontraditional media outlets. I just feel strongly people should not be going to jail for smoking weed. The VP participated in a long-form interview with the All the Smoke podcast, hosted by former NBA players Matt Barnes and Steven Jackson, in which she suggested legalizing marijuana. Harris is set to sit for a more traditional interview with 60 Minutes next week.

According to CBS, Trump had also agreed to an interview, but has since declined. We are 33 days from election day. See you next week. The Run-Up is reported by me, Ested Herndon, and produced by Elisa Gutierrez, Caitlin O'Keefe, and Anna Foley. It's edited by Rachel Dry and Lisa Tobin, with original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, Pat McCusker, Diane Wong, Sophia Landman, and Alicia Baitube.

It was mixed by Sophia Landman and fact-checked by Caitlin Love. Special thanks to Paula Schumann, Sam Dolnick, Larissa Anderson, David Halfinger, Maddie Maciello, Mahima Chablani, Nick Pittman, and Jeffrey Miranda. Do you have questions about the 2024 election? Email us at therunupatnytimes.com. Or better yet, record your question using the Voice Memo app on your phone and then send us the file. That email again is therunupatnytimes.com.

And finally, if you like the show and want to get updates on latest episodes, follow our feed wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening, y'all.