The Democrats’ Plan to Combat Cynicism
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They're part of the more than 300,000 jobs BP supports across the country. Learn more at BP.com slash investing in America. There's a message that Kamala Harris and the Democrats have been trying to send in these final weeks. And it was all over the place at the Democratic National Convention. And the chants of USA that broke out on the floor.

in Harris' speech as she accepted the party's nomination. The awesome responsibility that comes with the greatest privilege on earth, the privilege and pride of being an American.

And in a speech by Maryland Governor Wes Moore, a former Army officer and one of the party's rising stars. We are a nation of patriots who serve when the mission is hard and who serve when the destination is uncertain. It's a vocal effort to, quote, reclaim patriotism. On the one hand, it could be read as an effort to win back some of the white rural voters that the party has lost to Donald Trump and Republicans.

But listening to Wes Moore, it seemed like something else. And I know our history isn't perfect. The unevenness of the American journey has made some skeptical. But I'm not asking you to give up your skepticism. I just want that skepticism to be your companion and not your captor. An appeal to disaffected voters who have lost faith in the system altogether.

So after talking with undecided voters last week, who were torn between the two parties and candidates, I want to focus this week on the Democrats' efforts to reach the skeptics, the voters torn on whether to participate at all. Today, Governor Wes Moore's case for patriotism over disengagement, and an expert on the challenges that theory faces. From the New York Times, I'm Ested Herndon. This is The Run-Up.

Hello. Hey, thank you, Governor. Appreciate you joining us. I hear there's an echo, so we're going to try to fix that. Okay, no worries. I've been wanting to talk to Governor Wes Moore since 2022, when he won his race to become the governor of Maryland. And in that campaign, he also spoke openly about his love for country.

and said that Democrats need to, quote, take back this mantra of patriotism. How do you even think this idea of patriotism or symbols like the American flag became associated with Republicans rather than Democrats in the first place? I'm so shocked that the Democrats allowed the Republicans to take this thing over. I mean, it's amazing to me because I think about who have been some of the most patriotic people ever.

that we have ever had in this country. There were people who knew that the country needed healing. There were people who knew that the country needed to live up to the ideas and the ideals that it has found in the first place. And there were people who were not just oftentimes skeptical, but people who had a reason to be skeptical, but people who still fought.

On behalf of this country, people who still believe in the hope and the promise of this country. And the idea that an individual or a group would allow another political party or another group to be able to wrap themselves in the flag and call themselves patriotism is absolute lunacy to me. And, you know, and I know I saw that.

When I was running against somebody who was clamoring on to this idea of patriotism and how Maryland should elect a patriot. And I'm thinking to myself, you know, I left my family.

And I put on a uniform for this country. And I'm listening to somebody talk about patriotism who was busing people down to the Capitol on January 6th. It's this type of thing that just, it didn't just make my blood boil. I was like, there is absolutely no way that we can just stand pat when people's definition of patriotism was trying to overthrow a free and fair election. That's not what patriotism is. And I know because I come from a whole family of patriots.

I come from a family of people who are educators and preachers and civil engineers and postal workers, people who fought for this country and who believed in this country. When did Democrats lose that mantle, though? I guess I'm trying to pinpoint when you think this started.

You know, it's difficult to point to a singular time or, frankly, a singular person. But I do believe it's over the process of this past decade, something has shifted. Something has changed where the idea of making America great somehow also means not criticizing and not being able to be, you know, to be able to have an honest examination of the country's history.

And I think when you watch how it showed itself in elements of things like the book bands and telling people which part of their history is worth remembering and worth debating and discussing and which ones are not. So you can't point to a particular movement. You can't point towards a particular person. You know, you can't point towards a specific moment.

But I do think over the process of this past decade, something has shifted. And it was just, you know, again, I think it would behoove not just Democrats, but it will behoove just true patriots and people who believe in this country to take a moment and say, not on our time. We are not going to let you bastardize nor take this term from us when we understand what patriotism really means. Do I hear right that you're saying Donald Trump is kind of an outgrowth of that rather than the cause?

of the singular cause of that shift in terms of, okay. Yeah, I think it's that Donald Trump, I don't think Donald Trump created it.

But I think Donald Trump has done a great job of riding the wave. OK, how would you relate then that kind of patriotism you're laying out, one that can criticize the country while seeing its opportunity to your personal story? I read about your grandfather's journey from South Carolina to Jamaica and back. Can you take me through that? And what lessons did you learn from kind of your own identity and growing up that contributed to your sense of pride and country?

You know, I really do believe that a lot of my love of country does come from my family's journey because, you know, my grandfather on my mom's side was the first one on my mom's side of the family that was born in the United States. He was born in South Carolina and the Ku Klux Klan ran

ran them out and they went back to Jamaica. They said, many of them will say, I will never come back to this country. Many of them did not. But my grandfather did because my grandfather believed that this country, as he said, would be incomplete without him. And he became a minister just like his father. And what was amazing to me that was that my grandfather, even when he became a minister, the same threats that were coming to his father started coming to him. The same threats of violence.

The same threats of the same threats to his family. And he stuck. And he always believed in this idea of this American promise, even when it wasn't showing itself to him in front of his eyes. And and so, you know, I say that my grandfather, he had a deep Jamaican accent his entire life.

And he was maybe the most patriotic American I've ever met. And I always found myself not just with a love and admiration for his level of patriotism, but also with a deep...

respect of this country's history, of this country's journey, of the incompleteness of the United States and of the American, this American promise. Yet at the same time, feeling like I had a distinct responsibility to be able to help to heal it. I think that's a helpful transition to your speech at the DNC because you really laid that kind of personal story out in relationship to how it shapes how you view the country and your faith in it.

But it strikes me that, you know, the message of kind of patriotism can run in a lot of different ways. It could be a message that I think calls back to some of the more disillusioned or cynical people you're talking about, maybe people who didn't think the country story included them. It could also be a message to I'm thinking of the more like moderate Republican types who kind of always saw themselves in the American story, but they're kind of upset with Trump's refusal to respect presidential norms, thinking back to January 6th. Was there an

audience you were thinking about as you were laying out this speech? Was there a person you were trying to specifically motivate with this story of America in that speech? You know, I think there were multiple audiences that I was trying to touch, but it really was the person who has some form of skepticism in their heart and letting them know it's okay.

That whether you are skeptical because you felt like this American system has not worked for you or your family. Some of the earliest memories I have of my life was watching my dad die in front of me when I was three because he didn't get the health care he needed. And that has left many people in my family skeptical of this system. And so it was speaking to them because if you're not doing it, you're not being honest. Because I think that one thing that people are just like, people are tired of being lied to.

Um, they're tired of being told about a hope that never comes to fruition. They're tired of being told about policies that helped everybody when they weren't supposed to help everybody.

We talk about things like the GI Bill in history as this great momentum, this great thing that moved people to the middle class. Yeah, if you were white. Right. Right? But there were clear problems with the way the GI Bill was let out that actually increased a racial wealth gap. We talk about things like home appraisal values and why people should become homeowners and how that helps to create long-term economic wealth. That is absolutely true, unless you happen to live in a historically redlined neighborhood. Mm-hmm.

And so I think there is – we've got to be honest with people. And if you're not, if you're willing to gloss over this country's history, if you're willing to gloss over the fact that we have children who are growing up in poverty, not because that's just the way it is and not because, oh, they were born inferior, but because they were born into a system that puts people and keeps people in poverty.

If we're not able to be honest about that, then you're not going to move people. But I think if you're willing to say that and you're willing to acknowledge it, acknowledge our history, acknowledge our past, but also then provide a pathway for how we can fix it, I think you're going to be able to pull people off the sidelines. I want to—that's, I think, an important distinction. Because to your point, I do think Democrats have gotten better at acknowledging the history that has led us to this moment. I guess I'm saying, why haven't we seen that translate then into a growth—

in terms of Black support? Why is it trending the opposite direction if the Democrats are saying the right words about history and about what brought us to this moment? Well, I mean, I actually don't know if it's a universal thing to say that we're saying the right words. Okay, fair. And I don't know if it's a universal thing to say that we're pushing the right messages. You know, when I ran for governor, we didn't just win people who were the super voters. Yeah. We won people who hadn't voted before.

We want people who literally registered for this race. We want people who were engaged in a new type of way, who were volunteering in a new type of way, who are door knocking and waving signs when they're like, I've never voted. Now you got me out here door knocking. So I think what you're able to do, you're able to speak to people in a way that is genuine, to be able to see people for where they are. They're just looking for, do you see me when these decisions are being made? Mm-hmm.

Do you understand my family? Do you understand our history? Do you understand the things that we have seen? And you're willing to incorporate that into the work that you're actually trying to get done. And I don't think that a party has done that right. I don't think that I don't think that a party has done that wrong.

I think you have individuals that have been able to capture that. As Maryland's first Black governor, one of the few Black men elected statewide across the country, how do you think your identity impacts how your message of patriotism is received? Do you think, frankly, you have to be patriotic or it's harder to be patriotic because the way people come and receive you as a Black male? I mean, it's a good question. I mean, it's something that I generally don't, I don't,

think about it or like, I shouldn't say, I don't, I don't overthink this, right. Where I'm like, you know, how much should I wear a flag or how much red, white, and blue? I just, I try to be who I am. And I, and I think that the way, because I do understand that, that I walk different and I represent something different than what people are

accustomed to because I'm not, I don't fall into an easy box, right? I'm a person who had handcuffs on my wrists when I was 11 years old. And I'm a person who ended up leading soldiers in Afghanistan with the 82nd Airborne Division. I don't fit into the normalized box. And frankly, I'm the first person that Marylanders have looked up and are in the entire history of our state. And they can say,

And my governor is black. I ask specifically because not only, of course, are you a black person or a black male, but you've also had a specific set of experience. I guess I'm somewhat asking, like, when we think about the ways that politicians are trying to package a message of patriotism or optimism to cynical communities, and we can use black folks as an example here.

Is it difficult in any way, considering that some of the experiences you had are atypical of what we would maybe consider larger Black communities? Like, is there a way that I think the optimism is linked to the fact that this country kind of has worked out for you? And there's a lot of Black folks who may not...

Agree with that. Yeah. No, and I think it's a fair point that in some ways people will watch an evolution of my personal story and they'll see a hope for a larger narrative. Yeah, yeah. Right? Where it's like, where in many ways you embody the hope. Right. That people have. I think that's absolutely right. I think that the thing I caution people of is,

is I don't want to embody the exception. And that's the problem. That is the line that I think we have to be able to understand is that luck should not have to be a prerequisite. Like we shouldn't have to be able to be a society that when every once in a while someone makes it through, that that's enough to make us get to bed at night. You know what I mean? Like we've got to actually change the human condition that people are existing in.

You know, it's not a great thing to talk about what I have been able to do and where I've been able to go if you're not also willing to talk about the people who I came up with who are doing nothing near what I'm doing right now. Right. I feel like a need to mention the book that you wrote, The Other Wes Moore, which was about the story of you and someone else

named Westmore, who grew up in the Baltimore community, but had two very different results. If I remember it correctly, the other Westmore was a drug dealer robber. You're a Rhodes Scholar, White House fellow, former Army officer, yet your roles could have been reversed. I mean, doesn't that kind of speak to the fact that luck is kind of at so much of the core here? Absolutely. And that understanding how thin that line is between our life and someone else's life.

Understanding that sometimes, like, as a society, we are just real quick to either congratulate or to castigate without being actually able to, willing to, and having the intellectual courage to be able to really delve into that. We have to wrestle.

With this idea that if we do not fix these structures and fix these policies, you will repeatedly and intentionally leave people behind. And that is something that should weigh too heavily on all of our conscience. Are Democrats doing a good enough job of that right now? And is there any specific message that—

If we, again, take black men as a proxy, as a rightfully cynical group that you think would speak to that person of that identity, whether it be a policy or a campaign message that you think you want to hear more of? No, we're not doing a good enough job right now. And I think the data continues to show we're not doing a good enough job.

And I think we need to do a better job of engaging our surrogates. And when I say surrogates, I'm not even talking about the elected officials, because quite honestly, I remember before I was an elected official, the people who I would probably most listen to weren't necessarily elected officials.

It means actually engaging community members and business leaders and clergy and people who actually have the ear of the people. And so doing a better job of actually being able to highlight the key differences in what we're seeing in this campaign because, frankly, Vice President Harris, you actually have someone who's presenting plans.

You have somebody who's talking about things like childcare and enhanced child tax credit. You have someone who's talking about raising a minimum wage and making sure that you're not disincentivizing work. You have someone who's actually putting together policies to increase housing inventory and giving more people the potential to be home buyers. You have someone who's talking about increasing capital and liquidity to black owned businesses and making more of our people, not just employees, but making them employers. That you have a candidate who's talking about work, wages, and wealth,

And then in Donald Trump, you have someone who's talking about gold shoes and criminal records and black jobs. Like this is not close. But I mean, but if you're not actively out there making the point,

then you can allow a lot of noise to become so distracting that you're getting people to actually say, I'm just opting out because I don't see a difference between the two. Considering all that we've kind of talked about here, what do you expect to happen with this vitally important electoral group if we take young Black men or Black men largely? We've heard the Trump campaign previously think it could win two out of five folks. Can Democrats stop that from happening? And then my second follow-up question is, has Harris helped or made those efforts harder?

I think we absolutely can win the demographic, but I think it's not, you know, people are not going to vote. Young black men are not going to vote for the vice president because she's black. It's not that simple. You've actually got to go work for it. You have to go speak to the experience. You actually have to present a vision. You actually have to show a track record.

And you actually have to have a measure of coalition to show people that not only is this the hope for what we're willing to accomplish, but here's what I'm required and here's what is going to be required from all of you in order for us to actually make this happen and get people to buy in. And Vice President Harris is the one who's actually able to do that. She's the one who's able to speak to people's experiences.

She's the one who's able to actually present a track record. She's the one who's actually able to present a vision. And she has the wisdom to show younger black men and folks who really are going to be the one that's going to help to determine which way this election goes, to show them that hers is a vision that actually sees them, that lifts us up, and makes sure that we're included inside of that process. And we're seeing enough of that right now. We're seeing enough of that.

Well, I think we're seeing it from her. We're seeing it from her surrogates. And I think you're going to continue to see it. She is someone who has the receipts and has actually put in the work. And I can tell you that for a fact because I've had the joy of working with her. Thank you so much, Governor. We really appreciate your time. I really appreciate yours. Thank you. I'm excited. Yeah, thank you. Thank you.

Just the day after I spoke with Governor Moore, Vice President Harris set for an interview with representatives of the National Association of Black Journalists. Madam Vice President, the

Black men, as you know, are closely watched voting bloc. You've hosted black men at your residence. You have engaged black men and censored them in your economic opportunity tour. But polling shows that some black men, particularly young black men, are considering voting for Donald Trump. And they see him as better for the economy. What is your message to young black male voters who feel left out of this economy? And how can your economic policies materially change their lives?

So I appreciate the spirit of the question, but I'll tell you, I've often been asked this question in a way that I've had to respond by first saying that I think it's very important to not operate from the assumption that black men are in anybody's pocket. Black men are like any other voting group. You got to earn their vote. So I'm working to earn the vote.

Not assuming I'm going to have it because I am black, but because the policies and the perspectives I have understands what we must do to recognize the needs of all communities. And I intend to be a president for all people. More after the break.

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What are some of your, like, habits for playing Wordle? I wake up, I make a cup of coffee, I do the Wordle, and I send it to my friends in a group chat. Amazing. Thanks so much for coming by and talking to us and playing. New York Times game subscribers can now access the entire Wordle archive. Find out more at nytimes.com slash games. You don't understand how much Wordle means to us. We need to take a selfie. For many months, it felt like much of the focus in campaigns and in media

was on the group of Black men, mostly younger, who seemed to be gravitating toward Donald Trump. But that was before Harris became the nominee, and people like Wes Moore sought to refocus the party on appealing more directly to this group, which made me want to talk to someone I met a few months back. Hey, can you hear me? Hey, how's it going? Hey, man. It's going good. Prentice Haney, a political organizer based in Ohio.

I am a strategic advisor with the Democracy, Power, and Innovation Fund. I've been organizing in communities for about 14 years. Who is specifically focused on Black communities. Every time an election cycle will come up, you know, people will pander and try to get the Black vote. And then a lot of times you'll hear that the Black vote did this or didn't do that. But me, as someone who's been in community for all these years, would know that the Black vote is diverse and has different perspectives and there's different folks who move.

The different perspectives Prentice mentioned are actually the reason I wanted to talk to him, because he was recently involved in a national survey of Black voter groups

that broke down the electorate into a number of subcategories that could often get lost in broader conversations about Black voters. So the first cluster is legacy civil rights. Prentice calls these subcategories of voters clusters. Think about your grandma, your great uncle, the folks that walked from Washington with MLK. These are the bread and butter Black voters, the Black electorate we think of today. Right.

day, that these are the folks that no matter what happens, what barrier, they're going to show up to vote. They understand why this democracy matters because they fought for it. They fought for it to happen. Their grandparents fought for it. These legacy voters, often older and religious, are about 40% of the Black electorate.

Next cluster. Secular progressives. Think about like the folks who are attracted to like an AOC or a Summer Lee. Like these particular voters, they care about the issues. They care about abortion. They care about voting rights. They care about economic justice. They care about every progressive issue that are out there.

there. But they're not necessarily like driven by faith. They're more secular. They will be the folks who think that their vote matters, that there's power in their vote. And also they might have some critiques of the system. But at the end of the day, they're looking for progressive values, progressive candidates. They're looking for folks who can show up that way, that are out there. These two groups, Prentice says, are solid Democrats, and they make up over half of the electorate.

There are also some other clusters. Race-neutral conservatives. Tim Scott. These folks don't see race as the primary driver of what's happening in American politics. They don't believe... There are two important clusters that make up a significant portion of the Black electorate that I really wanted to focus on. So the first group is next-gen traditionalists. This particular group is a group of folks who have a very strong Black identity,

They also are guided by their faith. And they also have like a more traditional value system. Like, you know, they like to see more traditional homes. And they tend to skew a little younger. And so what's so interesting about this particular group is that sometimes people might view them as conservative, but they actually tend to lean more moderate in their orientation. Right.

They're really weighing all the options. They want more information. They want to understand who are the candidates and really make a decision that's best for not only themselves, but their families. I like to think about these folks as like, you know, the sort of like millennial pastors.

Like, you know, someone who's like in the church talking about how they need to build their families, build their wealth, have a very strong Black identity. But, you know, they're not going to just vote progressively up down the ticket. They're going to be looking and seeing who best represents their values. Interesting. What's the next group? The next group is my favorite group, which are the rightfully cynical voters. What does it mean to be rightfully cynical?

It is someone who is engaging in this political environment who feels like every institution has failed them. Whether it's Democrats, Republicans, school systems, churches, courts, all the places that they feel like should have been there for them have failed them. And so they don't believe that these systems could work for them.

So the rightfully cynical voters, I have a quote that really brings to light how they see the world. There was a person in a focus group. He told us a story. He said that my life didn't get any worse under Trump. It didn't get any better under Obama. So why should I care who's president, who should be in the front of office? Yeah. That really encapsulates a sentiment that we hear among a group of people, especially Black voters, pretty often. Absolutely. Absolutely.

This group, they tend to be more working class. Less of those have been to college. They tend to skew more male. And some of the motivating issues that matter most to them is economic security.

They care about inflation. They care about how they're going to pay for the groceries. They care about all the ways that they can make money to take care of themselves and their families. But they also feel very distrustful of people in the institutions that are trying to persuade them to act.

But the persuasion that you're doing is not persuading them what candidate to vote for. You're trying to persuade them to come out and vote at all because they're swinging between being voters and not being voters altogether. And so this universe is probably the biggest universe for growth.

I get what you're saying. Those next-gen traditionalists are choosing probably between the two candidates, whereas your rightfully cynical group, which trends more male, more focused on economic security, and more distrustful of people and institutions, pushing them to participate, their real point of contention is not really which candidate to back, but whether to participate in the system at all. Completely. And those two groups in American politics...

are the most ignored groups of Black voters. Oftentimes when you hear political pundits talk about these voters, they tend to either group them like, oh, Black men are running away from the Democratic Party or Trump is having inroads with these particular Black voters. I think that's a fundamental misunderstanding of what's happening with about at least 40% of the electorate, which is there is half of them deciding who they're going to vote for and the other half is deciding if they're going to vote at all.

So if you were isolating the importance of these different groups, and we thought specifically to the November election, who would you say are the most important for the candidates to be thinking about come election day? Is it these next-gen traditionalists and the rightfully cynical? Oh, completely. I mean, if I was talking to any candidate right now, what I would say to them is that for next-gen traditionalists, your main job over the next 50 days is to make sure that you are

providing an agenda to them that is persuading them to think that you are the candidate that can deliver the kind of future for their family and for themselves that they want to see happen, especially in places like Pennsylvania and Michigan and Georgia. And when you're thinking about rightfully cynical voters, I don't know if any candidate is going to get a rightfully cynical voter to show up to vote. But you know who can?

A guy like Fred Ward in Ohio, every Thursday, he has at least 30 to 35 guys. And what they do is they sit down, they learn about how politics work, how government works, and ways that they can get more resources and money and to take action on it.

And what's so interesting about that is that these are guys, when they walk out, when you ask them, do they believe in how the system works, they don't believe that. But part of what they say is they believe in Fred Ward. I remember I had a guy, Antonio, I asked him, what is making you vote? He's like, well, it's not that I'm being made to vote. It's that I believe in Fred Ward. And Fred Ward says voting makes a difference. So I'm going to take that action because he's someone making a difference in my community. That's what cynical voters need.

they need to hear from people like them, cynical voters like them, who are taking action in their community, that if they join an organization and organize, that they can make a difference too. I mean, so much of what you're laying out is so distinct from the type of questions people normally ask about Black voter turnout and what the factors that affect it. But I guess I'll ask you a kind of a way to get at this in reverse. Because one thing I asked to Wes Moore is,

is that I think we were both in agreement that Democrats have done a better job of talking historically about the impacts of race and racism and speaking honestly to cynical voters about why they feel the way that they do. But...

It's not like they're saying democracy isn't working, let's improve it. They're really kind of telling a story that seems to often start and end with Donald Trump's breaking a political system that they are the restorers of or at least the defenders of. Why do you think Democrats have had trouble motivating Black voters over the last couple cycles? What would you identify as some of the places in which they've left votes on the ground? Yeah.

So, I mean, I will say over the last couple of cycles, Democrats have focused on like defeating Trump, focusing on him being the issue of American democracy. And like we said, if your whole entire voter engagement program is about legacy civil rights, democracy is their number one issue. So talking about him being the person that's attacking democracy and undermining democracy, it works, but not for majority of the Black electorate.

So one of the things that is very exciting about the last couple of weeks is

is that you've seen the party shift their conversation, not just about we need to protect American democracy, that we need to fight back. They've been talking about, one, moving away from the politics of division to one where a country could actually work together. And we know that multiracial solidarity is a very strong message for Black voters across all clusters. But the second thing that we know

is that talking about who this country could be, us moving forward together and laying out that path of not just hope but joy. We've never seen joy in our politics before. That that sort of interaction in the last sort of four or five weeks

has offered a new entry for Black voters, that maybe I can show up in this election not just angry at a candidate, but joyous about the kind of future we could work for. And to me, if the Democrats want to be smart, they need to lean more into that

And if they want to build a new party that not only focuses on the 40% of voters that are already with them, but the other 40% of Black voters that want to show up, they actually have to offer them something different. Clear policy platforms, a politics of joy, ending that division so that they can actually have a path where they could be a part of the party and not just on the outside. Mm-hmm.

You know, looking at the categories you laid out, it helps me think about the conversation around Trump and black men a little differently. Because, you know, on one hand, the topic is usually that he might have made an appeal to people specifically on misogynistic grounds or on grounds that kind of speak to folks' business acumen or things like that.

But when you lay out the categories of rightfully cynical, more male, focused on economic security, distrustful of people and institutions, it strikes me that that's kind of Trump-like. There's no piece of any of those three planks.

that is outside of the message Donald Trump is offering. And specifically, he talks about distrust of institutions a lot more frontally and directly than a lot of Democrats do. Is some of that, you think, causing, but we at least see in some polling, which is an interest in some of Black folks to Donald Trump? Yeah, I mean, what we know, we've seen this over the last eight years, is that Donald Trump has been a masterful politician since,

of preying on people's isolation and fear of systems. And so part of what he's done as a man who's been able to be successful through institutions, through generational wealth, is that he's been able to say that, like, I could be the person that breaks this system and build a better America.

But let's be real about it. Donald Trump is not actually a candidate that doesn't believe in these institutions. He's leveraging for himself. And also, Democrats have leveraged institutions for themselves. So part of what we see happening right now is that Black people, especially in the rightfully cynical group and the next-gen traditionalists, are really deciding, who is the candidate who's fighting for me?

Who is that? And you've seen, especially since the DNC, that the conversation has shifted from a conversation about democracy, but about who's going to fight for you. Because even the national campaigns are noticing that in the margins, people want to know who's going to fight for them.

And based on your research, that's a better place for Democrats to be is on how we're fighting for you rather than defenders of democracy. For two of the clusters. For legacy civil rights, defender of democracy will work.

But for the clusters, they have the hardest time winning over for November. Yeah, because the thing about democracy is that it's an elusive idea. Like people want to know what democracy will deliver for them. It's not just democracy in and of itself. It's an idea that matters. It's about what democracy delivers for them. And so when you get super clear and granular about what this democracy can deliver for you, that's when you get closer to those voters. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Talking to Prentice serves as a reminder of the one-dimensional ways both parties often talk to Black communities. On the Republican side, an unwillingness to acknowledge the lasting impact of racial discrimination is disqualifying for many Black voters who view the political system through that lens. On the Democratic side, the desire to blame Trump for much of the country's political problems is at odds with key groups,

whose skepticism of both parties predates Trump's arrival on the national stage. Which is why people like Governor Wes Moore are calling on the party and the Harris campaign to take a different approach, a tactic that affirms the very cynicism that could lead someone to not vote at all rather than try to lecture it away. And hearing Harris' pitch to Black journalists, it's clear she's gotten that message.

The open question is, is she the right messenger? That's The Runner for Thursday, September 19th, 2024. And now, The Rundown. It's a dangerous business, however, being president. Donald Trump returned to the campaign trail on Tuesday after a second assassination attempt against his life. It's a little bit dangerous. You know, they think race car driving is dangerous. No, no.

They think bull riding, that's pretty scary, right? No. This is a dangerous business, so we have to keep it safe. The FBI is still investigating. But the suspect, who was hiding in bushes while Trump golfed on Sunday, has been arrested and charged. No, but today, a little while ago, I got a very nice call from Kamala. No. It was very nice. It was very nice. It's...

It was very, very nice, and we appreciate that. But we have to take back our country. We have to win. We're going to win, and we're going to make America great again. That's all there is to it. And a new poll from The New York Times and Siena College shows the race relatively unchanged after last week's debate. The latest poll shows Harris and Trump both locked in at 47 percent nationwide.

with Harris leading in the key battleground state of Pennsylvania. There are 12 days until the vice presidential debate and 47 days until the general election. We'll see you next week. The Run-Up is reported by me, Ested Herndon, and produced by Elisa Gutierrez, Caitlin O'Keefe, and Anna Foley.

It's edited by Rachel Dry and Lisa Tobin. With original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, Pat McCusker, Diane Wong, Sophia Landman, and Alicia Baitu. It was mixed by Sophia Landman and fact-checked by Caitlin Love. Special thanks to Paula Schumann, Sam Donick, Larissa Anderson, David Halfinger, Maddie Maciello, Mahima Chablani, Nick Pittman, and Jeffrey Miranda.

Do you have questions about the 2024 election? Email us at therunupatnytimes.com. Or better yet, record your question using the voice memo app on your phone and then send us the file. That email again is therunupatnytimes.com. And finally, if you like the show and want to get updates on latest episodes, follow our feed wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening, y'all.