The Case for Democrats to Stop Playing Defense
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Hey, y'all. Before we jump into this week's episode, I want to tell you about a new show for my colleagues at The New York Times. It's called Matter of Opinion, and it's hosted by four columnists over on the opinion side. Ross Douthit, Michelle Cottle, Lydia Polgreen, and Carlos Lozada.

They take on one big topic in the news every week. But similar to our show, they don't just talk about the incremental stuff. They ask big questions like, is there a crisis of masculinity in America? Or this week, what should we do about aging politicians? The conversations are smart, nuanced, and funny. Matter of opinion. New episodes every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, on to the run-up.

As I've been talking to national Democrats about their strategy for 2024, it's clear that a big part of their plan to win is through defense. To watch what Republicans do and run on the promise that they are not that. They don't see that strategy as a weakness. They see it as a strength. But increasingly, I'm hearing from people who say that this is a plan to not have a plan. That it doesn't meet the urgency of the moment and isn't worth the cost.

So I wanted to talk to a Democrat who would make the case for that version of the plan, the Biden version of the party in 2024. And I thought of Alyssa Slotkin, a moderate congresswoman from Michigan.

What's happened in Michigan, in particular in this midterm election cycle, is huge and historic. A state where Democrats had huge wins in the midterms. A momentous night for Michigan Democrats. Governor Whitmer will win re-election. For the first time since 1983, the Democrats won the House and the Senate and controlled the governorship. And they did it by running what looked a lot like a Biden playbook.

The other big storyline from last night, Michigan voters passing Prop 3. Nearly two and a half million Michiganders voting yes to enshrine the right to an abortion in the state constitution. But after I talked to Slotkin, I realized that actually, she represents something quite different from Biden. Something a lot of those critics are asking for. Today, Congresswoman Alyssa Slotkin on what happens when Democrats go on offense.

and State Senator Megan Hunt of Nebraska on what happens when they don't. From the New York Times, I'm Ested Herndon. This is The Run-Up.

Congresswoman, can you hear me? Can you hear me? I can. Thank you so much for taking some time out. I'm sorry I'm a little late. I had a mic problem. No problem. You know, it happens. How's your day going? It's going good. I mean, in this place, we live day by day. And people aren't like losing their minds and doing performance art in front of the cameras. I consider that a good day. So, so far, so good.

In a lot of ways, Alyssa Slotkin's bio and her story of how she came to power makes her a very strong foil for Republicans. So I'm a third-generation Michigander, and my entire family was in the meat business.

We had a meat company and our specialty was hot dogs. So we did... This is a really... As a fellow Midwesterner, I'm already into it. I love a good hot dog. There's always people at every single Michigan event I do who like the hot dog line is an applause line. Like they're so excited that we're in the hot dog business. But we did all the meat for Nathan's hot dogs for the first 50 years. And...

And then we got the first contract at Tiger Stadium for hot dogs in the 50s because we figured out a hot dog that wouldn't shrivel in three hours of steam. And it became a favorite in Detroit, and that became the Ballpark Frank. So that was our sort of signature hot dog until we sold the company when I was a little, little girl. But my parents were not really political. I mean, growing up, very typical Michigan. My dad was a lifelong Republican, my mom a lifelong Democrat, right?

But, you know, in Michigan, that wasn't uncommon. Look, they got divorced, but it wasn't over politics. So she's a born and raised Midwesterner with ties to a hot dog dynasty.

And she also tells a powerful story about why she got into politics. One of the two big formative moments of my professional life was 9-11. I was on my second day of grad school in New York City at Columbia when 9-11 happened. And by the time the smoke cleared, I knew I was going to go into national security as a career.

So I had come into Columbia looking to be one day the head of a big international development organization. But I switched and I went into security policy. I went into hard security and got recruited right out of Columbia into the CIA. So it was definitely a change. That's for sure. You mentioned that as your kind of first political formative moment. What was the other one? When Donald Trump was elected president.

For the first time, as someone who had worked on preventing threats to the United States, I saw the threat as inside the country.

In a weird way, it was deeply connected to my life in national security because the threat to my country was the internal polarization that was going on and that was being used as a strategy by President Trump to divide us and split us apart. And in a multiracial, multiethnic country, that is a threat. So Slotkin entered Congress as a moderate Democrat from Michigan.

At the same time, more progressive voices of the resistance movement were also entering the scene, which was something she had to navigate. Well, and look, it's not like Fox News doesn't just, you know, use that constantly, right? And take what one Democrat says about, you know, defunding the police and saying that that's what everyone in the Democratic Party believes, even though that's demonstrably false, right?

So I think certainly whether it's reporters, constituents, the guy, the little guy who tracks me, you know, who's paid by the Republican Party, who follows me around with his camera and tries to get me mad, they're all using talking points based on what, you know, a number of folks on the further left have said.

So you just, you have to answer like a normal human being. I don't believe in defunding the police. In fact, I need more social workers. I need more training. I need more resources. I need to hire more good people into my police forces. You just have to constantly answer for that and

you frankly also end up spending money, right, on TV ads that make clear that there's a difference between that point of view and your point of view. But I also have this really amazing Michigan miracle story to serve as a counterexample for the country. Mm-hmm.

Michigan shellacked the Republican Party this past election. And we didn't do it with extreme rhetoric. We did it by being serious, pragmatic elected officials who spoke to people's pocketbooks and their kids. And we did not let them paint us all with the same brush. And they tried, right? They use all kinds of crazy culture war rhetoric.

things, these fabricated threats to our kids, that kind of thing. But the voter saw through that and voted for the most practical, normal person in each line of the ballot. And we have the numbers to prove it.

Yeah, I wanted to ask about last year because it does seem like Michigan Democrats had a big breakthrough, you know, not only in governor and down ballot, but as you said, the ability to respond to the Republicans trying to flatten the differences between Democrats across the country. What has the party learned that it makes them maybe better at responding to that in 2022 than they might have been in 2018 or 2020? I can speak for Michigan, and I think

Michigan serves as a really important example in a few ways. When Roe was overturned, frankly, when the leak of the Roe decision came out, so May, a year ago,

Michigan Democrats have plans. We don't just sort of have activism. We have concrete plans. And we had a ballot initiative already ready to go so that the morning that Roe decision was leaked, we started getting what would ultimately be 800,000 signatures in eight weeks for a ballot initiative. That's nearly one out of every 10 Michiganders. So we had a plan.

We motivated and used activism and energy to get all those signatures. We got it on the ballot. And then we talked about it in ways that appealed not just to the Twitter sphere, but to a whole broad group of people so that we pass this ballot initiative and codified Roe in our state. So I think Democrats in Michigan and the lessons we've learned since 2016 certainly are like good intentions are fine.

having a plan better. So that's what we're living in Michigan. And I'm particularly proud of. I mean, I think that that's a really interesting point because part of what we've been doing kind of in this journey towards the 2024 election is really asking folks, both activism and kind of party insiders, is there a plan, particularly when we talk to Democrats, for the ways that Republicans are going to seek to paint them and seek to

to target them. I mean, the way you talk about this model in Michigan is really specific, and it's really been proven out, particularly through the last election. Do you think that the National Democratic Party, I'm thinking of Joe Biden down, has been similar in terms of being proactive with this plan to combat the ways Republicans plan to characterize them looking ahead?

Well, I think even the way you're asking the question is your answer, right? We are constantly playing defense and we need to play offense. In this era that we're living in, right, we're living through what I consider a decade of political instability in the United States of America. I used to study other countries for a living.

And we would talk about these 10 or 12 years in a country's history where they're so polarized and turned against each other that nothing moves, nothing is legislated, nothing gets accomplished. We are in one of those decades, in my mind. I think we're about year six in, right? But in that decade, we need to do a much better job of playing offense on protecting our rights and our democracy. How does that happen?

To me, it's about leadership at the top, pulling the right people to the table and getting a coordinated message. And to me, this is, I think about it on the issue of choice, right? So Michigan, we had our plan. We talked about that.

But we're almost a year after the overturning of Roe. And where is our like five point plan where all the agencies, all the advocacy organizations, all the leaders in the House and Senate get together and say, this is what we're doing. What's our legal strategy so that we're pushing cases through the courts, not just the other side, so that a judge in Texas doesn't get to decide if women in Michigan get an abortion? What's our 50 state plan for more ballot initiatives?

What's our corporate strategy? Why are big companies having big conferences in Texas where, God forbid, one of the women has a miscarriage? We know that the doctors in Texas are telling women that they're not sick enough. They don't have a high enough fever. Come back later. Where is our offensive plan? That is...

is where you're going to see me agree across the board with lots of other people in the Democratic Party. We need, and that's one of the things I hope to bring, is some of that strategic planning from my own national security life to protecting our rights and our democracy. I have personally been kind of shocked that that plan does not exist.

But, you know, as a journalist, I feel like it's a natural place for us to be. As a member of the Democratic Party, when you look around and don't see said plan, how do you feel? Like I want to run for Senate. I mean, this is the thing. Like, if we weren't in this decade of political instability in our country, if we weren't so at risk, if we weren't under threat, then I would be off doing other things, right? But this is, to me, where I can do my piece.

And I think there are a bunch of leaders coming up, right? Colin Allred running in Texas, Lisa Blunt Rochester, who's going to run in Delaware. There is actually an opportunity to do some generational change in the Senate, but also across the board. You know, we have a new leader, Hakeem Jeffries, different generation. The tone was noticeable immediately. The responsibility of elected leaders in the House and Senate is different than it was 30 years ago.

And I think you're going to see a lot of leaders in the next couple of years, I mean, pushing the envelope and pushing on that idea that the idea is just to kind of like quietly maintain the status quo. Yeah. And to do business as usual. It just doesn't work for the moment we live in right now. And is that because Republicans have been on offense? What is the reason that does not work for this moment? Because from where I sit,

there has been more than a decade of Republicans using the courts, perverting political structures, thinking of things like gerrymandering and state legislatures to really lock in a sense of power. It's some of the things we've tried to document on this podcast. Why has it taken the Democratic Party 10 years plus, if we're still talking about this, to develop said plan?

I don't know. I mean, there's like if you ask members of Congress who were in the House in 2018 when we my class got elected, it's kind of a joke because I embarrassed myself by walking around Congress those first couple of months and being like, hi, I'm new here. What's the plan? Yeah. Right. What legislation are we doing first? What's the order? What's the strategic plan?

play? How do we message it? You know, my Pentagon background was pushing me to understand the strategic plan. And I went around all these leaders. And then finally, someone teed me up to ask our senior most leaders in front of 100 members of Congress, and we just talked past each other. There's a difference between a tactical plan to get one bill done versus the strategic plan. Like, what are we trying to do to protect our rights and our democracy? And I think it's, again, I

I can't answer you for why it hasn't happened in the past. I just know it can't continue in the future. I hear you. In some ways, I also hear a kind of vision of where the Democratic Party should go that's really embodied by the kind of new generation of leadership, by people who have kind of stepped up to say, we want to become the leaders that create

said type of plans. You mentioned Colin Allred, you mentioned Lisa Blunt Rochester, and yourself, who has made the announcement to try to run for Senate in Michigan 2024 as one of those leaders. But I also hear Joe Biden as a figure who has represented the kind of Democratic Party's typical response to these plans, a desire for compromise and unity. How has Joe Biden's version of the Democratic Party met those moments? Are you getting from the top

the type of response that you think is necessary? Because he doesn't seem to fit in that said new blood need. Well, look, I mean, there's a time when you've got to push and play offense. And there's a time like last week when we have a debt ceiling, you know, cliff looming where you've just got to buckle down, negotiate something and save your country from a recession.

Look, I have said for a long time in the House, the Senate, and the White House, we just need a new generation across the board to run for office, to start to take over. And I think I feel that from the public, right? But Joe Biden is the sitting president of the United States. He is running again. And as the sitting president, I support him. He's done things that have been important in my state. I can show you dirt being moved.

new factories being built because of his policies. But that doesn't mean I don't in general want my country to have that new cadre of leadership coming up. And that's what I'm focused on.

I hear that. But if you're talking about a moment of urgency, a 10-year kind of question of political instability, it does seem as if the same type of new blood you think is necessary in House and Senate would seem also necessary in White House. How is four more years of Joe Biden in line with the type of urgency of political need that you're saying is necessary? Well, like I said, he's the sitting president. So, you know, it's very normal in our system for the sitting president to run for a second term. And, you

You know, you can have any kind of debate you want about other folks. He's running and I support the sitting president running again. But that doesn't obviate the responsibility for House and Senate leaders for others to also do their part. We could be doing a lot more to push the agenda and increase.

you can also push the White House. That is what I do on lots of issues, lots of times. What do you think are the key differences between the type of Michigan miracle going on the offensive version of the Democratic Party you're describing and the Joe Biden version of the Democratic Party? Are they strategic differences or are they different issues that one is prioritizing over another?

I don't think there are different issues. I mean, you know, making more things in America and making sure people can get into and stay into the middle class. Those are issues that we talk about a lot in Michigan and also Joe Biden talks about a lot. So I think that the priorities of the Michigan Democrats are the same or very similar to the president. But sometimes execution is different.

And in Michigan, we just six years ago today, we were Republican up and down the, you know, the ticket and a Republican Supreme Court, Republican congressional delegation. And we just voted for Trump. So we looked into the brink and then we acted and did something about it. And messaging is good. Action is better.

You know, we've talked to kind of Democrats and state legislatures who are dealing with a real sense of powerlessness, a feeling like they cannot stop the Republican attacks that are coming down and also feeling like Republicans are dictating the terms of debate specifically on issues that they think are more favorable to them. Things like a culture war or specifically the idea of targeting trans children. I know that that is something that Republicans have also tried to use against you in a swing district. How do you as a Democrat deal with the type of issues that are

that Republicans are forcing onto the table? And how do you think the Democratic Party should be responding to them? So this is, again, it comes down, at least maybe we're all prisoners to our background. And so I see this offense and defense split, right? A lot of these culture war things are created by one side, perpetrated by one side, and then the Democrats just play into it and just sit on our heels and just play defense.

So let's take the issue of an issue that's really close to my heart, which is gun violence, right, in our communities and in our schools. I unfortunately became the first congresswoman in America to represent two school shootings, Oxford High School and Michigan State University. And gun violence in our communities and schools is the number one killer of children in our country. It's like an American disease, right? So we come out of COVID.

And there is this concept in American society right now of just parental rage, right? There is a lot of anger from parents that has just really bubbled up since COVID or from COVID, you know, and I don't pretend to understand every detail of it. But that parental rage has been successfully vectored on these culture war threats instead of the things that are literally killing our children.

And what I'm interested in is not just playing defense on culture war stuff, which of course we always have to do, but pushing back and playing offense and saying, while you're busy caring about banning books, children are being slaughtered in their sanctuaries, right? I'm having to give PTSD talks to 14-year-olds, the same talk I got when I got back from three tours in Iraq.

So I want to take the fight that way instead of just sort of waiting to receive their next round of culture war attacks and playing defense. And that, to me, is the difference. So, for instance, so I'm working with superintendents in my district, my K-12 schools.

to do what I think needs to be done to bring that issue home of gun violence to people's hearts. Most adults my age, certainly, and older have never done an active shooter drill.

But every one of our children has done an active shooter drill. So I'm working with the superintendents on having a parent-teacher night where the parents go through an active shooter drill. It's a drill, but they get to experience what their children experience when they go through these drills. They get to experience the guidance like telling an eight-year-old to go run, hide, fight. I mean, that is insane.

And so that's what we're trying to do is stop just playing defense, play offense, and focus on the threats that are truly harming our children.

I hear you make that argument really clearly on gun violence, but is it different on an issue like trans health care or protecting trans children when it's less defined publicly? Is it different? You mean playing offense versus defense? Yes. Is it easier to play offense on something like gun violence rather than on an issue where there isn't democratic consensus like gun control?

I mean, I just don't believe in bullying children. You know, so I just, I think we just need to speak plainly about these issues, right? Just, I don't believe in bullying kids. So I have no problem saying that. I mean, look, in Michigan, we're the state where we, you know, Mallory McMorrow, a state legislator, you know, very powerfully pushed back on some really horrible culture war threats. And so I just, I don't think it is as,

crazy as people think to push back on things if you just boil it down to like human beings talking to human beings.

whether it's security or culture. Is the Democratic Party as comfortable pushing back on this quote-unquote culture war stuff as maybe you are? Because it does not feel like as if there's a cohesive or, to your point, kind of strategic plan, even on things like this. Yeah, I'm not going to, you're not going to hear me arguing that there's a strategic plan. But I think the, we need more planning efforts

on all of these issues if we're going to protect our rights. I mean, I just, you're not going to get me saying that we have our, a perfect plan on these things. We do not. Is there anything the party isn't talking about right now that you wish it could be talking about more? Hmm.

Gosh, there's a lot of things. I think, to be honest, I think we need to have a conversation about reforming the filibuster and allowing the Senate to legislate on things that we care about. I mean, like voting rights. I mean, we literally are not able to vote on the John Lewis Voting Rights Act, which is an amended version of something we passed in the 60s.

because of the filibuster. And I just think, again, talk about not living in an era where we can let the old ways kind of hold. That to me is one of them. That is not a way that we're going to move the country forward by saying we're going to maintain the filibuster as it is and not vote on critical issues to people. But even to the point about the filibuster, I also hear another thing that Joe Biden does not support, right? Do you need a Democratic Party leader that is more willing to make things like these kind of structural fixes more plain?

Well, we also have 51 senators in the Senate. So, I mean, you know, I think that that, frankly, that is a Senate question. They don't need the White House to tell them what to do or not to do on that issue. So this is what I mean by like, just we need more leaders across the board to take ownership and making sure that the country doesn't

kind of languish in this polarized era that we're in and we have a way to get out of it. How do you speak to the kind of urgency of the political instability you're talking about and deal with the structural realities of what's possible? Well, again, I mean, you know, I'm sorry to keep using Michigan as the example, but it's just where I've come up in elected politics. Let's take the issue of gun violence in the state of Michigan, right? I grew up

with guns. Most Michiganders at some point in their lives, either their families had guns, they had access to guns. It's part of how a lot of people grow up in my state. A lot of people who are very serious about their Second Amendment rights, it was always considered this issue you couldn't touch in Michigan. When you start running, people are like, don't talk about guns. And

We just passed our first gun safety legislation in like 30 years. And why? Yes, because we have Democrats who flipped the House and Senate, but we also had some Republicans who bravely came with us. And because I've seen that in recent memory and because of the great work of the Michigan legislature, I feel like that's possible even in a world where the structural hurdles are significant. That when you get to the public and you get to their hearts—

they will move on issues. It just takes doing that instead of just railing

frankly, on Twitter. You got to get to people's hearts in different ways. So if I hear one version of the Democratic Party that's all out resistance, another version of Democratic Party that I think some people associate with Joe Biden, that's all about unity, all about compromise. I kind of hear a different version from you of a Democratic Party that isn't so much about just compromising with Republicans or isn't trying to necessarily return to the politics that you grew up in, but is instead offering a more proactive approach

to Democrats that can be responsive to what Republicans are doing, but not fully on the defensive. It feels like a kind of third way you're trying to build here.

Well, you know, good. Good. I mean, is that a fair characterization? Is that a fair characterization? I mean, I think so. I think for me, I believe in a two-party system with two healthy parties that just have a disagreement on the role of government in our lives. That is as American as apple pie to have that debate. And that's a healthy debate. Keeps both sides sharp.

But right now, the Republican Party does not represent a party that's sort of ideologically just about the role of government in our lives. It's something else entirely.

And I desperately want them to reform themselves. I desperately hope that they change. But in the meantime, you go on the offensive and the things that are truly, truly value driven issues. Yes. Is the Democratic Party too reliant on the other side being bad right now? Yeah, I think that that's what we have to ward against. Right. And I think about this, you know, even where we've had a lot of success in Michigan is like,

we can never rest on our laurels. The minute you sleep on Michigan, it will flip back, right? It's a swingy state and you cannot rely on the other side running these extreme candidates as a way to win. You have to be for something, not just against something. And that's something that I think a lot of people need to learn. And after all we've gone through, from the violence that's been inspired by

by an incited, including through an armed insurrection where five people died. Like, I am not on my heels here. The other side are the ones who are threatening the flag and threatening their country. And I will point that out because that is what I do for a living my whole life. And so I don't accept that we have to constantly play on their turf. They should be playing on our turf. Thank you so much, Congresswoman. I really appreciate your time. Of course. Thank you. Thank you.

Slotkin is the first Democrat I've talked to who has given real examples of what it means to go on the offensive. Redefine parental rights around gun control. Don't let the right own it. Safeguard abortion rights through a legal strategy in the courts. Get bills lined up in state legislatures. Don't let Republicans go unchecked.

But right now, that's not really happening. And actually, state legislatures are the ultimate example of Democrats playing defense.

And a lot of Americans are growing increasingly frustrated, scared, and disillusioned by what's happening there. What you've said your priorities are is taking health care away from kids, discriminating, supporting hateful bills, passing bigotry into law. And that really just seems to be how the wheel turns in politics. After the break, Nebraska State Senator Megan Hunt on a more aggressive defense in the absence of an offense. ♪

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Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates. Comparison rates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. Hello, this is Yuande Kamalafa from New York Times Cooking, and I'm sitting on a blanket with Melissa Clark. And we're having a picnic using recipes that feature some of our favorite summer produce. Yuande, what'd you bring? So this is a cucumber agua fresca. It's made with fresh cucumbers, ginger, and lime.

How did you get it so green? I kept the cucumber skins on and pureed the entire thing. It's really easy to put together and it's something that you can do in advance. Oh, it is so refreshing. What'd you bring, Melissa?

Well, strawberries are extra delicious this time of year, so I brought my little strawberry almond cakes. Oh, yum. I roast the strawberries before I mix them into the batter. It helps condense the berries' juices and stops them from leaking all over and getting the crumb too soft. Mmm. You get little pockets of concentrated strawberry flavor. That tastes amazing. Oh, thanks. New York Times Cooking has so many easy recipes to fit your summer plans. Find them all at NYTCooking.com. I have sticky strawberry juice all over my fingers.

So with that, we will start with today's hearing, and it is LB 574, and we will welcome up Senator Howell to open it.

The story of the fight in the Nebraska state legislature starts at the beginning of this year. Good afternoon, Chairman Hansen and members of the Health and Human Services Committee. When one senator introduced a bill to restrict medical care for transgender kids. LB 574, the Let Them Grow Bill, is designed to protect kids with gender dysphoria from irreversible, destructive, experimental medical procedures until they have reached adulthood.

It was one of many bills like this to be introduced across the country, but this time, despite the bill's inevitable passage. If this legislature collectively decides that legislating hate against children is our priority, then I am going to make it painful, painful for everyone. Because if you want to inflict pain upon our children...

I am going to inflict pain upon this body. A Democratic senator, Michaela Kavanaugh, fought back. And if people are like, is she threatening us? Let me be clear. Yes, I am. I am threatening you. She started filibustering. And not just the trans bill. There's not a bill on this agenda, on any agenda coming forward, that will be spared. Every bill will go to cloture. But every bill brought to the floor of the legislature.

Kavanaugh was soon joined by another senator. What concerns me about the turn this legislature has taken is the way we are normalizing extremism, radical, far-right, violent policies that actually do result in violence against marginalized people in Nebraska. Megan Hunt. So whether we're talking about single parents, which I am one, whatever,

or we're talking about trans kids, which I have one, which whatever. It's not a problem to anybody in the world. Hunt herself has a trans son. It's not a problem to my family, my parents, my friends, my loved ones, my coworkers. And for months. I hope my voice is a soothing tone for you. The two senators kept their filibuster going. Because I am here to talk.

They talked for hours every day. What you've said your priorities are is taking health care away from kids, discriminating, supporting hateful bills, passing bigotry into law. Using the rules of the legislature to grind official business to a halt. 56 days. We haven't even passed a single bill yet. This is the longest the legislature has ever gone, as far as I know, without passing a bill. As time went on. This is something that has to stop.

This is not what the citizens of Nebraska elected us to come and do. Both sides grew more entrenched, especially when conservative lawmakers bundled the trans bill with another controversial bill, limiting abortion to 12 weeks. What you are attempting to do today is the lowest of the absolute lows. Women will die. Children are dying. It is your fault. It is your fault.

And you are allowing it to happen. You do literally have blood on your hands. And if you vote for this, you will have buckets and buckets of blood on your hands. Eventually, in May... Mr. Clerk...

Voting aye. Senators Aguilar, Albright, Arch, Armendariz, Ballard, Boston, Bostelman, Brandt, Brewer, Breezy, Clemens, Dekay, Dorn, Dover, Erdman, Holleran, Hanson, Harden, Holcroft, Hughes, Ibaugh, Jacobson, Kauth, Linehan, Lippincott, Lowe, McDonald, Mosier, Merman, Reepy, Sanders, Slama, Von Gilleran. Voting no. Senators Blood, Bostar, John Kavanaugh, Michaela Kavanaugh, Conrad, Day, DeBoer, Dungan, Fredrickson, Hunt, McKinney, Raybould, Vargas, Walz, Wisher. Not voting. Senator Wayne. Voting is 33-8, 15-8. One excuse. Not voting. Mr. President.

LB 574 passes with the emergency clause. The bills did pass, as they were always going to. But the fight turned the Nebraska progressives into liberal heroes and offered a more combative vision for how the Democratic Party could be responding to this moment. But it wasn't clear that even its organizers would recommend it.

Hi, how are you? Can you hear me? I'm good. I can hear you. Can you hear me? Yeah, I can. Are you in the car? Is it raining? I'm in the car and it's raining. That's right.

When I spoke to Megan Hunt, she was in Lincoln, Nebraska. I'm speaking to you now on the very last day of our legislative session. We just adjourned. And I frankly wasn't there because I'm talking to you. And the way I feel today is I can't wait to be done with this. About an hour down the highway from where she grew up. I'm a sixth generation Nebraskan. I'm extremely from here.

I grew up in Blair, Nebraska, and that's where most of my family's from, you know, going back generations. And, you know, I've never really thought about the story or whatever that ended up keeping me here. Hunt's political career is a bit unlikely. She went to college in Nebraska, expected to leave and to teach abroad, but ended up starting a business that did well. And she started a family in Omaha.

I had my son in 2010 with my then husband and he is bright and curious and has been his whole entire life.

He was born in Omaha. And actually, my son was born in the same place that I was born, in the same hospital. Seventh generation. Yeah, exactly. That's the seventh generation of Raskin. Exactly. As her business grew, she got more into local activism and started working to update the sex education in Omaha public schools. In Omaha, we had some of the highest rates of STDs and STIs in the entire country for young people. And so I was just part of a group that knew that

if we wanted to change those numbers, we probably needed to make sure kids were getting medically appropriate, age appropriate, research-based sex education. And long story short, we did it, but it was really, really, really hard. And it was against every odd. And it was so intoxicating to me to have this progressive win in a conservative community that

I thought maybe this is something I can focus more on. Hunt ran for office in 2018. She swept her primary and then the general, becoming Nebraska's first out LGBTQ state senator and the first woman to represent her district. And when she came in, in 2019...

She said she had an idea of what her role would be. I thought that I would be focusing on fiscally responsible stuff, funding Medicaid expansion, and funding public schools. And those issues were winners at the doors. You know, we have a very strong culture of nonpartisanship in Nebraska. You might know that Nebraska is the only legislature that is officially nonpartisan. And so we do have this kind of spirit here.

And in 2017, when I was running, this is what people cared most about, even conservatives, even Republicans. But it's so wild how far we've strayed from that in terms of what I think people have to campaign on now in order to get elected. Over the last few years, a bunch of new representatives have joined the legislature, several appointed by the conservative former governor Pete Ricketts.

I'm not saying I'm a saint or I'm the best ever, but like I ran for office because of a problem. Most of my newest colleagues, they aren't like that at all. They're in office because somebody asked them to be. And I feel like my colleagues are learning how to be politicians by watching TV.

by watching Congress. I mean, in the state legislature, they come in, they don't have any respect or knowledge of the institution, and they start playing senator. Like little kids play house, and they are acting like they think a politician acts. And so when the most recent legislative session began in January...

There was a far-right majority. A woman who was politically appointed, she was appointed by Governor Ricketts. She introduces a slew of anti-trans bills. The same suspects introduced like a slew of anti-abortion bills. And when it started to become clear that this anti-trans healthcare bill that came through the legislature was going to be a priority for a significant number of senators...

My colleague, Senator Michaela Kavanaugh, made the decision to start filibustering every single bill that came up this year on the floor, and she did. And I didn't join her right away. I wasn't quite there with her yet because I still had faith in—

traditional means of negotiation and relationship building and communication, I thought we could still kill those bills the old fashioned way with just diplomacy. And, you know, she was bringing down the sledgehammer and I was still in the back rooms trying to deal with people. And as soon as it became clear to me that there was no way out, that they were dead set on passing this,

I joined her in the filibuster and we ended up talking for hundreds and hundreds of hours this session. What changed your mind? Was there a moment or a day or something that happened that caused you to join her in the filibuster? I really reached a breaking point because I...

My colleagues know my family. The Nebraska legislature is also the smallest legislature in the country. We only have 49 members. And because of that, we're all really able to know each other. And I've traveled with my colleagues. They've come over to my house. They've babysat my kid before. And they know that my son is trans. And it really became personal and disrespectful and hurtful to me to an unforgivable degree, right?

when my colleagues who had traveled with us, who had babysat, who I considered friends of my family, made the decision to stand with these radical extremists instead of standing with me as a mother. And

That's when I said to them, I said, don't say hi to me in the hallway. Don't send me a Christmas card. I don't know you. We're not friends. We are coworkers. Like our relationship is over. And I'm just asking you to care about my son and care about me as a mother, the way you know me to be personally and not the way you are hearing your party being

repeat this kind of hostile, toxic rhetoric on TV. Like, that's not what this is. You guys know me. And that was the breaking point for me where I was just like,

Yeah. You know, the world is bigger than the Nebraska legislature. Life is more than this. You guys seriously don't matter. You're just literally bad people. And we're not going to have a relationship. It sounds like it became personal and that shifted your willingness to go further politically. Yes. And you were having these conversations with your colleagues. What were they like? What were they saying when you told them, don't send me a Christmas card anymore?

They believed me. I mean, a couple folks, they would say hi to me. They would ask me how my day was. And I would just say, don't talk to me. And after one vote, one of my colleagues came up and tried to give me a hug. And I pushed him away, like I karate chopped his chest. I pushed him away. And I just go, are you changing your vote? And he kept interrupting me and trying to talk. And I said, until you're changing your vote, I don't want to fucking hear from you. Like,

You don't have anything to say to me. And I mean, is this good politics? No, I don't think so. I think that I've probably sacrificed a little bit of efficacy just by not being willing to roll over and say, okay, yeah, you're voting against my rights as a parent. You're voting against the human rights of trans people, but I'll still deal with you. I'll still have drinks with you. I'll still talk to you. And I reached a point where it's just like, no, this isn't because of some deeply held, sincerely held belief you have.

This isn't because your God came down and told you have to act this way. You know me, you know my son, you know all kinds of trans people who are out there in the rotunda trying to reach you, yet you are still choosing to hate and discriminate against them. And that's your choice. And you have to be a real piece of shit to make that choice.

Part of the reason I wanted to press about the strategy is because of the use of the filibuster. There's a lot of folks who have tried to make the filibuster the ultimate emblem of politics being broken, of zero-sum politics, of not compromising and come to the middle. Mitch McConnell, famous filibuster threatener and deployer. How do you see your use in Nebraska as different or distinct than maybe some people have come to associate the filibuster with extreme politics largely?

Well, what I think people don't understand is that in Nebraska, our filibuster is real. In Nebraska, to filibuster, you have to stand up and keep talking. It's not symbolic in any way. It's literally a ton of work. And that's why they don't often happen. And that's why they aren't used by either side very frequently because...

It's very, very exhausting. And typically you would maybe filibuster one bill or one type of issue and be exhausted. What Senator Kavanaugh and I have been doing this session is filibustering every single bill that's up every single day, talking about the bill, about the subject matter, not sitting down, um,

keeping the clock going. And that's difficult. And that's also not necessarily something that other lawmakers can do in their legislatures according to their rules. The way our rules work in Nebraska, this is a tool in the toolbox to protect the minority that has never been used to this extreme degree because it's hard, because it's exhausting. How did the filibuster end?

Two things happened. One, the bills we were filibustering passed at the end. So, I mean...

What's done is done and we can't change that. And then second, we were filibustering every bill still after the bills passed, but we ended up making a deal with the speaker for some criminal justice reform. So the deal was we sit down and stop talking and then we get these few things done on criminal justice reform that some of our other colleagues really, really wanted. So it was kind of a for the good of the team type of thing. How did it feel for its end?

Anti-climactic. I mean, I just, I don't know. Anti-climactic. Maybe it's because the fight doesn't feel over and there's no closure. And I know we're going to do the same thing next year. And I know that between now and the next session, we're just going to be

preparing for that again. I mean, last year at this time, I was preparing for a session of productivity. I introduced like 29 bills. I had all these things I wanted to get done. I was meeting and speaking with and socializing with my conservative colleagues. We were getting along great. And the rest of this year and the rest of my time in the legislature, it's never going to be like that again. You're sure of that? Yeah. Yeah.

You mentioned expecting that these fights become annual, that you all might have to deploy that tactic again come next year because of more Republican legislation. I mean, considering how much this seems to have drained you, seems to have really upended your view of politics, how do you view the prospect of having to do it again, of this becoming the normal?

I can do it. I can do this again next year if I need to. I think the goal, the most important thing, is to make passing these hateful, discriminatory, bigoted bills painful.

Even at the end of the day, if they get their way and the bill passes, I want them to hurt so bad. I want them to regret ever running for office. I want their businesses to suffer. I want their personal lives to suffer. I want them to regret everything and be miserable. And at the end of the day, when they get their way and more kids are discriminated against, more people's lives are harder. Their life is harder, too, because I made their life hard with this filibuster.

You know, we should mention that you end up deciding to leave the Democratic Party during that time. What was the specific moment that you decided that that felt like a necessary step? The tipping point for me was two things.

One was when the National Party started promoting and fundraising off of work we have done in the Nebraska legislature when they have never, ever, ever, ever invested in us as candidates. So we have scrapped and fought and won against a lot of odds in a system that funds Republicans with a blank check for whatever they need.

But it abandons progressives and then they want to share credit for it. So that really frustrated me to see. And the second tipping point for me was this whole process through this attention we've gotten for the filibuster doing a lot of national press, whether it's print or TV.

I would see headlines saying things like, you know, Democratic Queen Megan Hunt claps back against Republican trash. Like it's always this like very extreme language. And it's so annoying because that misrepresents who I am and what I believe and also how the legislature works. And I don't want my name to be used to contribute to this problem of what I see as hyper partisanship. Um,

And it's just lazy. Can I push back on that a little? You were telling colleagues to never talk to you again, that their actions have crossed the red line. And I'm not saying that's not justified. I'm saying, isn't that also, you know? But they did not do that because they are Republicans, you know? The more this gets framed as a Democrat versus Republican thing, the less power we have to reach these reachable conservatives in our legislature.

You mentioned early in our discussion that you also saw it as a message to the national party. Can you say more about that? Yeah, I mean, I really think that the parties are not the future and that at the national level, the political dysfunction is so extreme that you have Republicans who don't identify with the national Republican party. You've got Democrats that are frustrated with the national Democratic party and that

I think that it's important that the Democratic Party invest in red states and candidates who are fighting, who have demonstrated, like me and my colleagues in Nebraska, what we're willing to sacrifice to do the right thing. That not everything is a political calculus. Not everything is a trade-off to make some political deal to win something. Sometimes you just have to put your nose down and fight.

And I wish I saw more people in the Democratic Party doing that. Mm-hmm.

There are always going to be lots of different kinds of people who are comfortable with different strategies. I'm comfortable with conflict, so I'm comfortable saying fuck you to these people. But I do think that we need more Democrats and more leftists and more progressives who are willing to just say no. Like, I'm not going to stoop to your level and debate somebody's humanity and existence. I'm not going to agree that that's even a legitimate topic to stoop

start at. And, you know, we have to kind of stop normalizing at the national level that an abortion ban is even, that there's even two sides to that. Like, this is not rational or realistic, and we cannot debase our political power by conceding that there's two sides to a view like that. I guess what does then

that form of resistance politics look like when you have a Republican party who has a hold on power, who is continuing to push on these issues, and you have a Democratic party that doesn't fully all agree on those issues? How then are you supposed to develop such a clear-eyed resistance to the other side when it's a party where there is not uniform agreement among Democrats?

I don't know. I mean, I left the party because I was sick of people not fighting. I was sick of people conceding and saying, you know, as the goalpost moves farther and farther right, so does the Democratic Party. And we say, you know, we're not meeting in the middle anymore. We're meeting in the center right. And I don't understand if there's something... I'm not a strategist. I'm not like a political genius or something. I don't know if there's a reason for that in terms of like...

building power or something, but for all the power that the Democratic Party has built, what have we gained? Roe versus Wade was fucking overturned. We are backsliding into something that we are going to be in over our heads to come out of. And I would like to see a Democratic Party draw that bright line and use more forceful means to say,

This is a boundary. No, not not sure. Let's debate it. But just no. Well, if we were to use you all's actions in Nebraska as the counterpoint to that kind of conceding, tell me about the filibuster. Was it successful? I think I'm I don't know. I think so. I I think so. For the reasons I just said, yes.

Of course, I mean, of course those bills passed. Yeah. So fuck my life, but I don't know. Thank you so much. I appreciate your time. Thank you. In Hunt's view, and the view of many Democrats who are critical of the national party, there's a real human cost to embracing a strategy that's defense first.

because it allows Republicans to keep going. Every Democrat recognizes that challenge. And even still, they've rallied around another term for Biden. So I wanted to hear why. That's next week. When it comes to making plans, you are the best. From

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The Run-Up is reported by me, Ested Herndon, and produced by Elisa Gutierrez, Caitlin O'Keefe, and Anna Foley. It's edited by Franny Kartoff and Lisa Tobin, with original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, and Alicia Baitube. It was mixed by Afim Shapiro and fact-checked by Caitlin Love.

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