Untangle Your Emotions w/ Jennie Allen | Girls Gone Bible
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Hi guys, my name is Angela. And I'm Ari. And this is Girls Gone Bible. We are a faith-based podcast where we talk about Jesus, the Bible, life, spirituality, all the things. And no matter what your religion is, where you come from, who you are, how old you are, you're welcome here and we hope that you stay. We are really excited today because we have a guest who I...

have been so jealous for a long time because you know all of my friends, you know the schnackies, and I love the schnackies. - Love the schnackies. - You know Maddie and Janine, and I wanted to meet you, and Ari wanted to meet you because we also wanna be in that circle of your friends. - You're in. - Yes, yes. - Dang, Jesus. - We've been waiting.

So Jenny, can you please tell us a little bit about yourself? I just want to know who you are, where you come from, what you do, and most importantly, how you met Jesus. Yes. So thank you guys for having me. And let me just say, before we go any further, on behalf of all of us out there with kids growing up in this world, like to have role models like you guys, um,

I am so grateful and how y'all are being faithful in a dark part of the world and industry. You are just shining so brightly. And so I feel the same way. I just feel so glad. So yeah, you're in. We're friends now. We're going to be calling you out. Yes.

I would love that. So a little bit about me. So I am from Dallas, Texas. I am married to the greatest man. He just makes me better. He and I had a hard start in marriage, but we are madly in love today. And just I love him. His name's Zach. We have four kids. My oldest son graduated from A&M. My daughter just got married, which is wonderful.

wild. And then my next daughter is a senior, and then I have a 15-year-old boy. So I stumbled. I was a Bible study girl. I mean, I just had my living room full of girls all my adult life, actually starting in college. And it was because I fell in love with Jesus. I'd grown up in a Christian home, but I fell in love with Jesus...

at a summer camp and it was so radical. Like I just, I understood the gospel and I could not believe it. And I came back to my high school and I was telling everybody about him and it was so annoying to them. And so I was like, what am I going to do with this? Like I have to talk about him or I'm going to explode. And so I didn't have, you know, this was before people like Beth Moore were on the scene teaching their Bible. So I didn't have, I didn't know I could

I didn't even know I could do that. But just kind of instinctually, I gathered a bunch of girls two years younger than me, and I put them in a room in our church that was next to our school, and I started teaching them the book of Revelation. That was just what I did. I had to teach. You started that revelation? Yes.

I wouldn't touch it now. I'm glad Jen Wilkin, you do that. But I, yeah. And so I just loved him. And I feel like I've just never gotten over him. And, you know, while there's a lot of things I could say that would sound a lot like a resume, I would say all of them fall in the category of just I love him and I talk about him. And I think that helps people and kind of spreads. And so, you know, writing. And then I lead an organization that's really beautiful called If Gathering. Yeah. And it's so fun. It's just...

Because it's women all over the world leading in their places. That's what I love about it. We didn't just say come to, you know, the stadium. We said lead in your places. Like we'll host you and help you. And so thousands of women every year host a gathering and they invite all their friends and they invite their churches. And so it's really special to be a part of. And a lot of just amazing work has happened through that. Oh, we're so excited because we're going to be at a gathering this year. Did you not know that? Yeah, this is our first.

first time we're gonna be there well this is a great one it's our 10 year anniversary and we're announcing something so epic that will impact everybody so yes everybody needs to tune in we give it away for free so everybody can everybody can tune in okay so it's online as well it's February 23rd and 24th you guys will put it in the description you have to I mean can they get tickets to all

Well, nope. That's closed. But anybody can watch it from home and anybody can host. And that's the magic of it is so many people, most people will be hosting from their living room. So it's like 99.9% of our audience is not in the room. That's crazy. So it's really special. That's so exciting. But I'm glad you are going to be in the room. Yeah, we're so excited. We've been hearing about it for years and I'm so happy that this is finally the time. Yeah.

We'll talk about it later, but that makes me really happy. Yeah. So one of your biggest things that you do is you write books. And you write books that change lives. And we are so grateful. I mean, we're sitting here reading this book, and I'm honestly looking at God being like,

Couldn't you have also given me the ability to express myself like this? It's such a gift. You're so anointed. It's so like truly. I mean, we have both personal testimonies to tell about it. Do you want to go first with what you told me this morning? Oh, I told you. Yeah, I told you this morning that when I went through my depression, I realized that one of your books is Get Out of My Head is the one book that I got.

And I started reading this book the other day. I couldn't stop. I had felt like I was just, I had a friend that understood. It was, it made me feel safe. I felt like reading these pages, I was like, I was reading my own story. I just couldn't believe it. I mean, oh my gosh, you guys, I,

Everyone needs to buy this book because I learned so much. It is going to free so many people. Yeah. Because the thing is, is we deal with so much and we don't know how to handle our emotions. We don't even know our emotions. Yeah. Sometimes I literally put bookmarkers in so many pages and I'd love to just go over some of them. Do you want to go over your testimony of what you found? So first we should probably tell you guys that it's called Untangle Your Emotions.

naming what you feel and knowing what to do about it. Now, Jenny, you don't know me personally yet, but something that I struggle with a little bit is I am an emotional stuffer. I will hide from my emotions to the very end. I will sometimes like spiritually bypass pain.

I have come to the realization recently, I feel God has kind of been chipping away at my heart being like, it's beautiful how much faith you have in me. And it's beautiful that you believe me and my promises that I give you.

But you also feel pain and it's okay to feel that. And so that's him and I have been dealing with that a lot recently. Wow, before you found the book. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Well, then we've been on the same journey. Oh, absolutely. I'm so excited. Yeah. I wanted to, before we even get into it, I just want to say that. So where is it? It's literally the fourth page of this book.

I'm sitting on our way back from Nashville on a Southwest flight. Right. And so we couldn't sit next to each other because they we were at the back of the plane. It was a whole thing. So Ari's sitting behind me. I'm sitting right in front of her. I'm on the fourth page of this book. And you're talking about how.

You're talking about this instance that you had with your daughter and about how your daughter had just gotten married and you're sitting at the dinner table and your daughter says that she wants to go and travel with her husband. And you basically explain in the book how you had sort of an emotionally charged reaction that you were kind of struggling to get yourself under control and you didn't understand why you were having this reaction yet. Yeah.

And so you're basically talking about what's underneath this. Every time I experience sadness, fear, anger, emotions, I've been conditioned to not want to feel my brain immediately moves to fight off the feeling like it's a virus. And then so you're basically talking about when you have like an explosive reaction to something or like.

you have to analyze why this thing has triggered you. This is the sixth page of the book. I immediately turn around to Ari and I go, hey, I have to confess something to you. There's this thing

That's not even about our friendship. It's kind of like outside of our friendship, but it kind of comes up between us. I said, I have to confess, there's this thing that comes up between us, and I don't know why I get triggered by it, but I'm telling you, I don't know if this is going to help, but I need you to know, can you help me figure out why I get upset about this? Ugh.

Literally, I had just read the book. I'm not even kidding. That is so dear that you would do that. And everybody listening, like, this is what it looks like. It's messy and awkward. I'm sure that's like, okay, I've needed to say this, but I haven't. Yeah, exactly. And it felt so good to get it off my chest because every time that this little situation would come up,

I would have this emotional stirring. I wouldn't say anything, but then I'd go to God and I'd be like, God, please, like, what is going on? Why am I feeling like this? But he needed me to like, tell her and bring it out into the open. Yeah. And I, and I learned how you come at things where you're like, I understand how you feel. Well,

And I said that to her and I said, well, thank you for sharing that with me. And she goes... It's the most mature conversation we've ever had. This is on page four. I can't believe it. That's amazing. I swear, this is all real. And it looked like a weight had lifted off her shoulders because she never does this. She holds it in. And I'm not even kidding. It felt like it healed in that moment, just bringing it out into the open and analyzing it with another person who's involved. I couldn't call it this in the book because they wouldn't let me, but...

I call it magic sometimes because it's not magic like a sorcery kind. It's like a magic God causes. It's like supernatural when you obey him and you say, because I think of confession as, and one thing I talk about in the book is confession is not just saying what is true of God.

the Lord and the gospel, but also what is true of your emotional life. Like it's to say whatever is true. It's not just sin. It's also, I'm anxious. And you see it in David's life. He confesses everything all the time and, you know, and we'll get into it, but the science of it backs that up. It actually is healing to our brains. Oh my gosh. A hundred. Actually confession is something that we've been

it's been on our hearts. It's so funny. I feel like God takes us, especially because we're somewhat new believers a few years in whatever. And I feel like God takes us through different seasons to teach us things at a time. Like right now, like we had just had a huge season of obedience where we really learned how to obey God in a way that we never had before. And now we're dealing with confession a little bit of being like, okay, now we have to bring things out into the open, like right away and get ahead of them. And

And you talk about this in the book so much about confessing and just being so honest with yourself and with God and the people around you. Do you want to take it off? Yeah, it's in the beginning of the book. You said, a couple of years ago, I fell into an emotional pit that I wasn't sure how to emerge from. The season was actually the catalyst for my writing this book.

Like so many people, I came out on the other side of the pandemic, unsure how to thrive in a world that was so chaotic and unpredictable. I relate to that so much. I was in a pit that I didn't know how to emerge from. I didn't know what I was feeling. I was lost. Yeah. And I was scared and I felt...

Like I was just never going to come out of it. And I love, I love that you, you in this book, you were just so real and honest about depression and anxiety. And if you need help, you go to a therapist and untangle all your emotions. And I love what you say about a lot of people, a lot of Christians feel like, oh, you should constantly be joyous if you are someone of faith.

And I have felt like that at times through my faith, like, oh, is this wrong that I feel this way? Because if I trust God, I should be happy, right? I should just have faith. And that's just not the case.

And so sometimes I feel like a lot of Christians feel like they can't be honest and have a bad day or feel sad. Yeah. And so real quick before you go any further, the theology of the fall is that our bodies broke, our minds broke, everything broke. And so we're dealing in a broken world with broken bodies. And, you know, I remember my husband when he walked through his depression, he kept a book by his bed called, it was a little, almost like a pamphlet. It was so short, but it said Christians get,

depressed too. And that just was so comforting to him because he, you know, I do think the stigma is what did you do? Yeah. Or if you would have more faith, you know? And I think that that's just not the world we're in. Like we are, we're fighting for our emotional health and, and, and a lot of us are sensitive to the broken world we're in. Yeah. And so we feel sad, we feel angry. And I think demonizing those emotions is,

which is a lot of what the church has done over the years without meaning to. I really believe they didn't mean to. Because I did the same thing. I'm like you, Angela. I am a stuffer. And so I relate to that. I try to control my emotions. I didn't want to feel any negative emotion. I honestly didn't know that I saw the point. I didn't see the point in going back and thinking about all of this.

How does it help? You know, it feels like I'm just going to be complaining or it just, I'm like, just go forward and it'll be fine, you know? Exactly, exactly, yeah. And so I think that shifted everything when I understood, wait, these are gifts from God to process a broken world. Yes, I love that you said that. And I love how...

What I really took away from this is how you said it goes back to when you were just a kid. And when Kate went to school, it brought back that abandonment issue of when Zach was in the hospital and had a stroke and you had a fear of being left alone. And I related to that so much. And I'll never forget. I went through a horrendous breakup.

And so when I was in the therapy, when I was in my therapy session, she had said, she said, how do you feel? I said, I'm scared. And I just feel, I feel like unworthy. And she said, well, what, did you ever get abandoned as a kid? And I said, and I just, the light bulb went off in my head. And I just started weeping. And I said, yes. I said, my mother is a wonderful woman. She loves me to death, but

She couldn't be there for me as a kid. And so my dad raised me. And when she left, I had a moment of being like,

you know, where is my mother? The person that I love the most had left my side. I can't possibly be worthy of love if my own mother that I love so much had walked away from me. So when my relationship ended, I had those same feelings of being like, how could he leave me? I feel I'm afraid. I feel abandoned. It was that same feeling of when my mother left me of feeling unworthy of,

So I just related to that so much. I just feel really honored that you shared that. Thank you. Thank you so much. And I know everybody relates to that because it just doesn't go how we always want it to go. And when it doesn't, because you're like, it's a breakup. It's not a divorce. Nobody died.

But for you, it's like this is also how old were you when you're that you remember specifically your mom? It goes. I was 12. OK, so 12. So you're 12 year old. Are you self is still there, like still there, all in you, still hurting, still. And I wish that weren't true because it would be easier just to go forward and pretend. But at the same time, it makes us need God. It makes us have empathy. It you know, I think I've I've learned that it.

it is the best parts of life, even the hard parts. Like it is, cause you probably, I don't know, were you walking with God at that time? I wasn't, this was right before. And so that's why it was the best thing that could have happened to me. And that's what you say in your book. It was, it was the start to find God. And, and that's what changed my life. Pain was a start to find God. Pain, brokenness. And that's when I learned unconditional love and that real love comes from him, not from anything else outside of that.

So yeah, it's just, it's incredible. Yeah. A new year is a great time to grow your business. But if you're stuck in the trenches of daily tasks like managing order fulfillment, you're not able to focus on what really matters, increasing sales.

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I'm glad that you and I can connect on the fact that we're both emotional stuffers. And I know that that's not what God wants for us because that's the first thing that he started chipping away at in my heart. You know, it's the first thing he started to do is honestly, even just being on the podcast, because it's like in my personal life, I'm a sharer, like I will share. It's not like I'm private and I don't share things like I actually like we're both very much like this is our past. This is where we come. You know what I mean? We don't care. But

When it comes to my emotional life, I've realized that it comes down to pride a lot of the time. And I'm just like...

I can't feel like this because that means that there's something wrong and that my life isn't perfect and that everything isn't great. And that also in my head means that God isn't perfect. You know what I mean? Like, so it's almost as if sometimes I stuff down the emotions to protect God's image in a way. Like it doesn't make any sense, but I'm just like, no, everything is perfect. Cause I, you know, but I realize cause on page 164 of your book, you say that

Joy connects us to God, the giver of all the good stuff. Fear connects us to God, our safe place. Anger connects us to God, our avenger. Sadness connects us to God, our God who understands rejection. Even feelings like guilt connect us to God, the one who died for our guilt and shame and sin.

And you go on to say that your relationship with God is built through tears and raw emotions. Like all of these negative emotions that we think are so bad, bring us closer to God. They're necessary. Well, we, you know, when you think of the little part of your brain, cause it's,

It's not just outward sources. It's not just our families that we grew up in where they maybe had opinions about, oh, don't cry. Like, it's going to be fine. And it's little things, right? I did it to my kids, too, where it's, you know, don't be mad about that. Like, it'll work out. It'll be fine. But to that 5-year-old or to that 12-year-old or to that 10-year-old, that's their whole universe. There's no perspective. We don't get to go back and give the perspective to a 5-year-old that we have today. Yeah.

They're five. They only know that. And so we learn from a really young age how to act about our emotions. And so the five-year-old's like, okay, it's not okay to be mad. Like, I'm getting corrected. I don't want to get in trouble. And so you just stuff that for some reason. Sometimes it's that reason. And then, of course, there's been this message in the world that's like your feelings are everything. And so follow your feelings. And wherever your feelings take you, like, that's where you should go because happiness is the best. And to be really fair to the world,

Paul even says in Corinthians, if Christ is not raised from the dead, eat and drink because tomorrow you die. So go be happy. Like basically, Paul's like, do what you want. Like, go be happy. That's all you've got. So the world's doing what the world wants.

should do, right? There's nothing else. Go be happy. But then you look at Christians and they swung all the way over here and we basically just have felt like, well, we don't want to be like the world and they're running their lives off of cliffs because they're following their feelings. So let's

let's do this differently and feelings are bad. And it's so funny because even just posting on Instagram, which y'all know how this is, you just post a little clip and it's like, well, there's bigger context than that, but I'll post a little clip of something about this. And, and you know, all these people are like, well, you don't follow your feelings. You follow God. And I'm like,

God, do you understand God's emotional? Like God is emotional. Do you understand God gifted you feelings? Like he built them and put them in us. And every one of us in the image of God is emotional because God is emotional. And so when you understand like this is from God, then you have to go, okay, there's probably a way to use it. There's probably a way to walk in it. And then when you think back to...

The way the church has said this, we don't even need the church. We don't even need our parents. There's a voice in our head all the time judging it, which both of you have already mentioned for yourselves. Moments where you're like, I shouldn't be feeling this way. I just shouldn't. And we do this all the time. So if you think about the last time somebody cried in front of you, what do they say every time? I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. As soon as we start crying, we say it. Universal human move. We all say it. Why? Because we feel guilty that we feel sad. Wow.

And so when we just start to chip away just at that and go, wow, like sadness is a gift. Sadness isn't evil. Sadness isn't from the enemy. Sadness is a gift. Yeah. Jesus wept and he didn't even have to weep. He was about to heal the guy and he knew it. And he said it. He said it verses earlier. He was going to go heal him.

So he didn't have to stop and weep. He could have been like, hey, I'll fix it. Don't cry. But he didn't. He stopped and he weeped. He wept with Mary. So yeah, I think we've just made emotions such a bad guy. But what you just read is so true. Like this is my life. Like I have, it has been born in tears. It has been my relationship with God. It has been built through the valleys and the hard times and the confusing times and

It feels like even in a given day, right? Like those are the times I pray because I don't know what to do. I feel stuck. I feel afraid. I feel worried. God help. You know that even my prayer life today in a given day, it largely exists for better or worse around need, around our emotional need. I always say that.

I always have said it from the very beginning because my relationship with Jesus was also born during a time of I was experiencing major mental health issues, very bad anxiety, really bad panic attacks. I mean, very scary stuff. And it was like out of nowhere. And a lot of it was unfortunately my doing. And we'll get into that later about choices that I was making and things that I was doing that I know were

were letting these things into my life and into my head. But I stopped, I got sober when I was 23. I stopped drinking. And that was like the moment. And that was the moment in which I believe that I got saved because it's as if God and I, he like literally, I was a child, like I had resorted back to a child crying out for my dad being like,

I don't, I'm not okay. And I don't have anything else to lean on. So it's just me and you now. And I know now looking back, I know that that's why he brought me to that place of such surrender and such brokenness.

But it was in, I always say that, like, you must rejoice in suffering because that suffering does bring you closer to Jesus. I never feel closer to Jesus than when I'm in a bad situation. And so it's worth going through those bad situations to get closer to him. Because if everything was good all the time, like, sure, you'll praise him, but you don't feel that need and that dependency, you know? That's right. And that's why Jesus says in the Beatitudes, he says, blessed are those who mourn. What?

Happy are those who mourn. That's the interpretation. Happy are those who mourn. Happy are those that are poor in spirit. Why? Because they get more of God. It's just true. We wish it weren't true. Yeah, I know. But that's also, I feel like, the beauty of what God does and how he really does work all things together for good because he...

Like there's beauty in the beautiful times and then there's beauty in the sad times. And so he just makes everything beautiful in my mind. You know what I mean? Yeah. You said on the days I felt closest to God, it wasn't on the days I felt joy. It was on the days I couldn't get out of bed. Yeah. Oh, that hits so hard. That hits so hard. That's exactly. I, if I could, honestly, if I could go through the...

Because I went through the worst year of my life last year, and I wouldn't take it back for a second. That's when I found him. That's when he was right there with his arms just wide open, ready for me to just run into him. And that's what I love so much about our relationship because you say in the book,

community yeah like open oh it's magical can you can you talk about that a little bit well and i want to say too to you guys like that's part of what's so fun about watching you guys because you love each other so much and you feel it yeah and things like what you just said angela about turning around to ari on the plane and being like let me just tell you this is something i'm struggling with and you just the second you could articulate it you said it right yeah and i think that's so rare and i hope everybody listening craves this if you're jealous of that

Because you need it too. This isn't something special that you two get and nobody else get. God built us this way. And that's a whole other book called Find Your People that I wrote. But it is, it's literally, I mean, I studied for two years. I studied villages and I studied the way that mankind has always existed.

And they've always existed in villages. And even now, 80% of the world lives in a village. And if you've ever been to a village in a third world country, they don't have doors. Everybody's washing their clothes together. Everybody's cooking together. Everybody's taking care of each other. They're growing plants together. There is no your family and our family. It's we're family. And that is how most of the world has always lived. We are isolated beyond measure. And when we talk about our emotions...

and we don't have anyone in our life to process it with, you need to know that that hurts your brain even more, I'm going to say something really bold, than the circumstances you're facing. Yes. 100%. And that is scientific, that trauma is formed when you are alone in suffering. And it can be small or large.

But you can go through something insanely difficult, the divorce of your parents, but you didn't feel alone. You felt connected to them. You felt connected to your siblings. You had good friends. You had a support system in your life.

And that person is going to have less trauma than the kid that goes through something smaller, but is totally alone. So aloneness is the enemy. And if you think about the enemy and his goals for us, that's an easy one to accomplish in our generation, to just isolate you on a screen, to isolate you by thinking everybody else has people and you don't. Three in five people were lonely when I did this work and this research before COVID.

Before COVID. Yeah. Three and five. Yeah. So you're not alone feeling lonely. Like everybody's feeling lonely, which is kind of weirdly hopeful that you probably can find a friend. Yeah. That's what I always wonder if there, there's so many lonely people. Right. I wish we could have something to where we could like make like true support groups and like communities where people can find each other. You should do that because there is, you know,

If Gathering has kind of provided that for some people and it's been so fun because they'll find each other in their town and they'll just go to lunch with strangers. And guys, sometimes that's what it takes. To me, it's like dating. You just have to go to coffee. You just have to get to know people. But the hard part, and this is so hard when you're emotionally low, when it feels like you don't have energy to do this, but you have to initiate because nobody's going to initiate for you. And I know you think like, gosh, what?

No, like if I were prettier, if I were more outgoing, if I were more important, somebody would initiate. I'm just telling you that that's not the problem. It's that people don't initiate. Yeah. That's the other thing. That's the other beautiful thing about going through something really painful. You're almost like a child. You're so desperate and you need someone. I was like that with Angela when the first time I met her. I was desperate for help and just desperate.

someone to just sit there with me. And so... It bonded you fast. Yes. And you know what's funny is like our... We tell it all the time, but like the time that we met, basically, long story short, we're at a job. Ari's crying. She's going through something. We both initiated in this moment because I had a prompting from the whole...

I assume the Holy Spirit to be like, go say, I had never met her, never seen her. I just literally went. I didn't even think twice about it. I went, I sat next to her. I grabbed her hand, saw her crying. And I was like, I don't know what you're going through, but let's get through this together. So precious. So I initiated that. Little did you know. Little did I know. Gosh. But then Ari like met me and initiated being like,

Like just like telling me everything. She was brave. She went first. Yeah. She said it all. And the one thing about her, she never tried to, like you talk about this in your book. She never tried to fix my problem. She just sat there with grace and listened and just understood and just kept saying, I can only imagine how you feel. And it just, that's what we need when we go through things. And it's funny because...

Going through what I went through, it just taught me how being vulnerable, because I was never vulnerable. I put my head down and I kept going. I was taught as a kid, just get over it. And so being vulnerable, literally, and just pointing to Jesus, he...

Being on this podcast, I never thought I would be able to bleed out my life. Every single Tuesday I come on here, it's like a therapy session. I talk to our GGB fam and I feel no one judges me. I feel so accepted. I'm not alone, which is the biggest thing. And that's another thing. No, they're making other people know they're not alone. Yeah.

And it's so comforting, too, when you're telling your story of all this, even your book, and you're not alone. Yeah. Other people have been through it. So even just in case there's stuffers out there like you and me, I want to say this, that, you know, the Bible says mourn with those who mourn. And scientifically...

when you actually like share it with someone. So this is why therapy actually works. Talk therapy does help because when you share your pain with someone, when you did that with Angela,

There is something in your brain that begins to repair, that's severed and broken. Your neuropathways actually find each other again. It's so unbelievable. They like work their way back to each other. So when you don't feel alone, you can even reverse it. Now, you know, the faster we do that, the better. Like when you're going through difficulty, I had to learn to cry when I was crying to pick up the phone because what I used to do would be the next day.

You know what I mean? Like I would, I would maybe, and maybe even a week after I had some words for it, I would tell them like, I've had a bad week, my friends. But I had to learn, no, when I'm breaking down, call them. And now it's like emergency meetings. I'm like, can y'all get together right now? And they do the same thing with me. And so that's super vulnerable to do, but it's part of our healing. It really is. And it's the way God built us, which I think it's why he stopped in

and cried with Mary and didn't just say, hey, I'm gonna fix it. 'Cause that's what we wanna do. We wanna fix all the circumstances. But the problem isn't the circumstances,

It's what we're going through. Yeah. Go ahead. Can you just touch on how, because you said you will never be emotionally healthy outside the will of God. Can you talk about that a little bit? Because it's really important and it's something I've really had to learn as well in my healing journey and finding God. I mean, I think first it's good to say and reemphasize what we kind of implied, which is healing.

You can have anxiety and depression and it not be sin. That is very important. In fact, I think in a majority of cases, it is not sin. However, you can have depression and anxiety permanently.

Because of sin. And that needs to be said too. Because sin, you've got to understand. I mean, think of Romans 8 where it talks about a spirit of life and peace. I love this description. And Romans 8 is probably my favorite chapter in the entire Bible. Catch me on a different day and I might say another. I just heard it this morning. So you've got the spirit of life and peace and the spirit of sin and death in Romans 8. And how do you end up with a spirit of peace?

Sin and death versus a spirit of life and peace. It's what you set your mind on, meaning your intention, and you go down that road. So you set your mind on, I want to sin. And we all have done that at times. I mean, I've done that even in times where I'm walking with God, where I just know it's not the best and I just am going to do it anyway. And I literally will rationalize it. And it might be something small, but it'll be, I'll have the conversation with myself of,

It's not that big a deal. I'm going to do it anyway. So we've all been there. We have all fallen short of the glory of God. We have all chosen our own way. Everyone has gone their own way. And that's what it means is that we've said in our own heart,

The will of God is that way. I think I'm going to go my own way. And we do it regularly. So not to just like demonize the partiers out there, right? Like all of you that are like, I know I'm sinning. We all are doing it. We're all choosing it. The difference is, and what you see in David's life is you turn, you repent. To repent is to turn. And you go a different way. And the other way leads to life and peace. So Romans 8 is really clear about it. You got one road to life and peace, and you got one road to sin and death. And so pick it.

You know, every day we pick it and you can be going down one road and especially sin and death and just decide like, I'm tired of this and I want to change. And that was both of your lives. Like you were like, I'm not going down this road anymore. And that was my life, too. I just I didn't want to live for myself anymore. I wasn't happy. No. And and then God gave me so much joy and so much peace and so much life that

That was the best thing I'd ever decided. I wanted everybody else to decide it too, right? And so that's what we're talking about. And so sin can lock you up and you'll feel like you can't get out. And that's the power of the gospel. Yeah.

And the gospel is for Christians every day. And the gospel is for those that don't believe yet. It is the hope of eternity with him, to trust in the blood of Jesus, to forgive your sins. It is simple and it is epic. It's so epic. They know. Trust me. We talk about it for two hours every week about the power of Jesus. I love it.

Yeah.

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I want to read because back to because this has been a huge thing in our lives. Jenny is like the fact that you have to take accountability for the part that you play in your own suffering and the part you play in your own mental health issues. Yeah. For me, like, yes, I experienced spiritual warfare. The enemy was that, you know what I mean? Like all the stuff. And I do believe that that's true.

So a lot of the things that I was experiencing were due to the habits in my life, the things I was partaking in and the way that I was treating myself and my body. And sometimes, you know, like we are so anti-victim mentality because we have victory through Jesus. Like it's impossible to be a victim if you have Jesus. Right.

You say here, confession is to speak what is true. Sometimes what is true is that life is difficult because you are choosing sin. You're sleeping with a boyfriend, abusing alcohol, sucked into porn. You are choosing something more than God, and it's made you emotionally sick.

And I'm, I just, maybe we can speak on a little bit because you said Romans 8. I was just reading how I'm paraphrasing, but it says something like you don't have to give in to the desires that your flesh wants. You don't have to, even if you feel all this sinful stuff, like you don't have to give in to these, to these desires and these things. And I just think about how like,

we have the ability to control so much more in our lives by obeying the word of God. And that's been a huge thing in Ari and I's life because for a long time, we were Christians who didn't read the word.

So we didn't know what it said. So we didn't know what God wanted us to do. We heard it from other people, but when it's not truth in your heart, it doesn't matter who tells you. And so we were living our lives being Christians, but still doing everything that literally leads to death, that God tells us not to do because it's bad for us. And we suffered for it. And I'm not saying that when we laid these things down, multiple things and big sin in our lives and even little sins, little compromises,

We saw radically the way that we no longer suffered with certain things. Anxiety was much less. Depression is much less. And something that we haven't spoken yet on the podcast, we will eventually whenever the time is right, but something like pursuing purity. Mm hmm.

Your life changes dramatically when you go from having sex outside of marriage to then not having sex. There is a reason for it. And it's not until you actually experience this yourself where you've been doing one thing and then you remove it from your life that you actually understand this is why he says this. It's protection. Oh, yes. He died for the sin. He died for the sin. So the sin is not...

the problem to him. No, yeah, yeah. We are white. If we believe in the blood of Jesus, like we are white before him and we are righteous before him. But the road leads to death. Like it is, it is, it is cumbersome. It is the way of the enemy. He wants to entangle you. He wants you to be addicted to many things besides the,

the word of God and God. And so that's, that's his goal. And, and, you know, we've got kids at all different stages and, and one of them, you know, has dabbled with different things. And it's like, you watch their own mind go, oh gosh, I'm,

I'm getting sucked into this. And it's just crazy. You're watching it like a movie. And that's how it works. Like the enemy has a plan and it is to entangle you where you will not be able to ever be effective for the kingdom. And this isn't even about salvation, although you'll be questioning yours. Like for sure, you'll be questioning yours and should be sure that you are saved. But

But it's that it'll take all the life out of you to where you're ineffective. You are unhappy. You are checked out. You are stuck. Stuck. You're stuck. Yeah, no, absolutely. And you are just like letting yourself be...

susceptible to so many different things. I mean it like this sin, especially the, I mean, all sin is equal. So, but you know, first Corinthians says that sexual sin is the only one that you commit against your own body. And so there are sin, like sin separates you from God. That's why it's bad. I know for us, like when we have in the past, I mean, we're at a point now where we're so surrendered to God that we're just like, we don't even think about sin. We're so scared. We're

We're just like, uh-uh. Because we're so dependent on him in such a real desperate way that we know if we take one little step away from him, we lose him, our only source. We need him. And so, yeah, that was one of my favorite parts because I really think I'm happy that you're telling people you actually have power over a lot of these things that you're thinking and feeling and that you also have to be responsible for these things. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's a hard thing to do because when you're down, I mean, alcohol feels good. When you're down, sex feels good. And I think that, you know, a lot of people listening right now are like, I'm in such a dark place from this sin, but it also feels impossible to get out because of the sin. Like it's part of how you're coping.

And so I want to just say, too, the fact that you feel that way, of course you feel that way. Like it does. While it leads to sin and death, it sure feels good along the way. And so, of course, you want to drink. Of course, you want a hit of something like this is this is this is the way it is when we get so low. It just we want instant relief, but it's not leading anywhere.

to life and peace. It is not, it is leading the opposite way. And so whatever turning it around looks like, like it's worth it. It's worth it. And it's worth, but you can't do it alone. You need accountability. You need people to help you. Like I'm sure it helps having each other so much just to, you really, I don't know that it's possible to just,

follow Jesus by yourself. Like in my research, it's like, it is not good for man to be alone. I mean, we just, we're too, it's too easy. So if anybody's thinking, I'm stuck, I don't know what to do. The first thing you do is you go join a church and you ask for help. Like you say, I need someone to help me. I need a person to mentor me. I need a friend. Like just be the needy person that shows up and,

and says help. That's the most important thing to have people around you. I think about, because Ari and I, like, thank God we have each other and we have a really great relationship where we're very much, we're very honest, straight shooters with each other. We have no problem calling each other out. It's a beautiful thing. But I remember, like, when I first started reading the Bible, I was reading the Bible for probably, like, two years, like, really in it with Jesus, having, like,

encounters with the Holy Spirit all the time, like really being touched by Jesus, but continuing to live my life a way that wasn't according to the word of God, even though I was reading it. I was taking bits and pieces that were like beneficial to me, you know what I mean? And I realized the reason why my life wasn't actually changing is because I didn't have anyone in my life. I didn't have any Christian friends.

I didn't have anybody to look at to hold up a mirror to me. I was always the holiest person in the room. Yeah. Is not a good standard I was living by. You know what I mean? It wasn't until Ari and I, and even when Ari and I met, that was really great for both of us because Ari, the beautiful thing about Ari is like, she's only been saved for a little over a year. Yeah.

And when I first, but as soon as Ari started reading the Bible, God started working in our heart right away. And she was like, oh, getting rid of this, stopping this, not doing this. I mean, it was so confrontational to me that I was like, I've been doing this for a lot longer. Why is she, you know what I mean? I was just like, oh, man. She's getting it.

- More holy than you. - Yeah, 100% and I was like, well, I guess I'm in it too, you know? But then when we really got some Christian friends who are really living right by God, that's when we were like, oh no, no, no. - This is different. - Yeah. - Right, this is more, it's everything. - Yeah. - It's everything and that scares people, like to surrender everything. But that is freedom. - It's the best. - So many people are anxious because they're holding onto their lives so hard. They're hanging on so tight.

And that's, you know, that's a really, that was my story. Like it wasn't drugs and alcohol. It was just my life. I just wanted control. I just didn't want to let go. I didn't want what God wanted. I was scared what it would be. And so I thought I can work this out better. And I just, and that brought so much anxiety. Me too. And letting go of it and continually letting go of it because that's a regular, I have to do that a lot. Yeah.

That's when I get peaceful. And I can carry, like right now we're doing wild things for the kingdom. It's so fun. And it's a lot. We've got a huge team. Like there's a lot of pressure.

And I don't feel it because I'm like, well, it's God's. And I'm here and I won't do it perfectly, but I'm going to keep showing up and we'll see what he does. And it's just a whole different way to live. And, you know, he's so trustworthy. So you can give him everything and it works out. Absolutely. It doesn't work out perfectly by any means because like we've already talked about, suffering can be a gift.

But he will be with you in all of it, whatever it is.

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Can I ask you a question? You touched on it and it's kind of on the topic of letting, surrendering it to God. I don't have kids yet, obviously. I don't even have a husband. But you, when you watch your kids, like you said earlier,

falling into things or like you see them I think about it all the time and I actually get anxious about it already thinking about like what am I gonna do when I see my kid maybe not doing the right thing like what is that like you'll panic yeah you do you panic and then you pray yeah and then you talk a lot yeah with them and you know one of the greatest things as a parent um

we've done is really be close to our kids, to build a relationship where trust is there. And they talk to us about everything. And I mean, we're parents, we're strict. It's not like we're not, we pull out all the disciplines and all that. That's all there. But our kids like us and love us and we like them and we love them. And so there's trust there. And so we go through it together. And

Yeah, and I think just the biggest thing is, and I think we complicate things sometimes, and I love the verse, Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and all these other things will be added to you. And the way I've seen that play out in my life is when I'm right with God, and I really like him, and we're close, and we're living together, and he's working and moving, and the Spirit's leading, and...

And we're close, just relationally close, not going through the motions, but close. A lot of things work out. And what I mean by that even in parenting is I think our kids, even though there were times that they didn't, largely want our God. Like they like him. They love him because...

He's gracious and he's all the things we know him to be. And so that's been the culture of our home, a lot of grace and a lot of talking and a lot of relationships. But I panic first for sure. It's hard to watch your kids. And it keeps being hard because then they grow up and they're independent and you know the decisions matter so much. It's not getting in trouble at school. It's getting in trouble in life and bigger things and everything.

And so, you know, my kids love Jesus and they're walking with him and it is the greatest reward. They say it is and it is. I've never had a greater one than that. Yeah. Can I ask you something?

Did you start reading the Bible with your kids when they were just at a young age? Yeah. I love that. I mean, we did. We had little, the storybook Bible, we had Jesus storybook Bible. It's fantastic. Yeah. But, you know, I remember being in seminary when they were really young and everything I was learning was changing my life. I'd grown up in the church, but I had never learned anything.

the things I was learning, like that Genesis through Revelation is a story. And I understood the big story. And all of a sudden, all the books made sense. And I just wanted that for my kids. It was changing the way I view God. And I just wanted to give that to them. And so, yeah, that was... I realized at that time, I ended up writing books that told the story of God because I later, much later. But at the time, what I had to do was

was just tie God into everything. So we would be driving. In fact, all my kids basically got saved because of this, the way I parented like this. But we would just talk about God everywhere and everything. So, you know, we look out the window and be like, okay, what's your favorite thing God made that you see right now?

You know, we would just talk about it all the time. He was part of my life. And so when I say, seek ye first the kingdom of God, and then everything else gets added, it's like that. It just bleeds into all your life. It bleeds into your relationships. And for me, it just bled into... And then it moved to dating and...

and talking about God, how it has to do with that. And then once they turned 10, 11, 12, all of a sudden, now they had a personal relationship with God. And now they've got opinions. And sometimes they're different. And sometimes they're pure, right? I mean, my daughter's in the other room, can hear me talk right now. And she knows what I mean. But all her life...

she kind of called me out. Like she would be like, mom, you're not trusting God. You need to have more faith about that. Like she would just, she always knew they, they had their own personal relationship with God and it, it impacted me. And so there was just always, now there were times, I mean, there were times that certain kids would go through a season of doubt and it would be long. It would be like a year where I thought, oh Lord, please bring him back. You know, I don't know what that's going to look like, but those seasons shape them. And,

And I remember one of my kids made worse choices than some others and longer. And I think the siblings worried about it. The siblings were like...

You know, I don't know that they're doing good. I think we should, you know, reel them back in. And you need to say things stronger. I'm trying to protect gender and identity to them. And I said, I said, I, he's, okay, it's a boy. He's God's. Like, I got to, we got to let this play out. And it's so cool because now that kid, like last night, he's grown. Yeah.

He called me and was like, Mom, I'm just practicing gratitude. Like, I love my friends. I love my church. I love my job. What an angel. He's just going through it all. But it just took him longer, you know? And so that's the thing with parenting. You can panic on the inside, and you will. But you can't freak out on the outside because you've got to play it cool and let God do his thing. Yeah. I think a lot of people just needed to hear that. Yeah. And you said something in the book where –

sometimes we have to identify, is it going to last a day? Is it going to last months? And then we have to say, well, what's the next steps? And I love that you're not ashamed of therapy. Can you talk about that? How it's, how it can be so important to untangle all that stuff and therapy? Yeah. So the way I describe it in the book is imagine that emotions are like an ocean. Mm-hmm.

And sometimes they're hitting your ankles and you can notice them and be like, gosh, I feel kind of down today. Yeah. And maybe that's because of what I ate. You know, it could be anything. But then there's times that you're about waist deep and you're like, man, I'm going through a season. Yeah. And this is...

I've been sad a few weeks, maybe even a few months. And then sometimes you're out in the ocean, you're swimming, and you're really in it. You're like, I am grieving. I'm going through sadness. I'm going through a season of anger, of hurt from my parents and how I was raised. And I'm angry. And God gets that. Like, that's the thing. Like, he gets that and he's with you. But you're still in control.

And then there's times that you feel like I'm out too deep and I'm sinking. And my husband described it as he was at the bottom of the ocean and he could look up and he could see the light with the sun bouncing off the water, but he could not get it. It was like he was anchored to the bottom when he was in depression.

And it didn't matter if he wanted to. It didn't matter if he wanted to get out of bed. It didn't matter if he wanted to work out. It didn't matter if he wanted to go to lunch with a friend. He could not do it. And it was scary. And he said, you know, that was the season where I didn't fantasize about committing suicide, but I understood why people did. Yeah. I understood. Because you get that hopeless and you think, I cannot, I cannot get out of bed. I cannot. He couldn't even talk. His words, like, didn't work. Like, he was so down. Mm-hmm.

And so, and that was a year of his life. And so do you mind, I'm sorry, do you mind just, can we talk about that a little bit? I want to talk about what happened, how that happened and what that was like for, for him and for you to have to watch and like what people can do in that situation.

Yeah, because all of us, I think, will be there either it'll happen to us or... And I struggled more with anxiety that, you know, there's a season in my life where I needed... You know, I've been in therapy multiple times in my life. I'm a big fan. But there was a season I did need medicine and several years ago. But mine hasn't been depression. But watching that in my husband, I felt...

I felt like, is he going to commit suicide? I was so scared for him. I didn't know how to tell people because it's my husband. He was a pastor. I didn't know how to let people in because he couldn't let people in. And then I didn't want to make him look bad and I didn't know how to get help. And so praise God, we were in the process of merging our church plant with another church and a pastor there had walked through depression and had walked other pastors through it.

So he kind of just took over his life. Jesus. I mean, it was the biggest godsend. And for people listening that your friend or your spouse or your boyfriend or somebody is struggling with that, you just need to know you've got to get help. It is a loving thing to get help. It doesn't matter if they're mad. It doesn't matter. It really doesn't. And so you just get help. And so all that to say, I do feel like...

that began at least to give him a plan because that's the problem when you're really deep in depression. You can't make your own plan. You can't decide like today I'm going to work out. You can't, you can't do the things you need to do. And so he literally just spoon fed him and said, today you're going to do this. Today you're going to do this. And praise God for that man. I love him forever for, for truly coming in and doing that. And so it was, it was scary and it was hard. And I felt like a single parent in that season, but I also felt like

Part of my story in this is I had to be a Navy SEAL. And if I felt anything, we were all going to crumble. Because we had just brought my son home from Rwanda. My youngest is adopted. He had just gotten home. He's still learning English. I mean, it was a rough, rough year. When was this? This was 10 years ago or more. Wow. Yeah. And so my kids are all young at that time. My youngest is...

running out of the house and running in front of cars because that's what he saw in a movie, Superman do. I mean, it was pretty crazy. And so, you know, I look back at that season and the sky was falling. It wasn't just that, of course, right? We have a new kid home from, who's four, from an orphanage. We have, our church is changing and murdering

and everyone in our community is very angry because they loved our church. And so there was just about 15 things at the same time. I had just written my first book, of course. That timing was great. So it was just a lot. And I look back and I go, gosh,

There are seasons where survival, numbing out, coping is the only thing you can do. And my kids needed that from me. And so it would be years later,

And the damage that that did, and you'll hear this from Navy SEALs if you ever talk to one, that when they go into war, it's really hard to come home and turn back on your emotions. So they have a hard time in their marriages. They have a hard time in their friendships because they had to turn off their emotions to get through something. Yeah. You say in the book about how your body basically shuts itself down to protect itself because if I don't,

If we let her feel what's going on right now, she'll explode. Right? Right. To that effect. Right. And so that's even, you know, and to give everybody grace that's listening, I hope the biggest thing people feel from this entire podcast and from the book, if they read it, is just so much compassion. Yeah. Because God is so compassionate.

I mean, it is one of my favorite verses. It's in Hebrews, and it says, our high priest is able to empathize in our weakness. He empathizes. He sympathizes is another version it says in our weaknesses. And so there's a God who goes, of course you're sad, baby girl. Of course this is hard. Of course this is broken. Of course you're angry. Of course this is wrong. Like,

I just love that. I think that is good to know. And of course you're numbed out. Like, of course life has been so hard on you. Of course you don't want to feel emotions. I sometimes worry like I'm being mean and, and,

in writing this book and like having people face these things. Cause I, I would feel like that on certain times where it's like, don't open that can of worms. Yeah. Don't, don't make me feel. And it's like, I'm asking people to go up to this abyss and like put their toes on the edge of it and like look down and, and I'm saying, go in this dark hole. It's like, that feels mean, but in the hole is more of God. Yes. In the hole are, I tried to give you handles, like,

how to scale the wall, like how to get down there. And in the whole is deeper connection with people. There is a purpose in emotion. And let me just be so clear so nobody misses it. Emotions are gifts from God to connect us to him and to connect us to each other.

And y'all have experienced that. Thank you for saying that, please. Emotions are gifts to connect us to God and to connect us to each other. Yeah. And that's a lot of the times because people are like, why isn't he healing me? Why isn't he? Because sometimes it's so necessary to go through that to get to build intimacy with him. If he would have taken the pain away from me right away, I would have never found him and built that relationship with him like I did.

So sometimes it's so necessary, the pain. My husband says something great, and I'm sure it's copied from someone, but he says it to people that are going through. A lot of people come to my husband because he's been so open about his depression. A lot of people come to him and talk to him about it. And so when they do, he says, don't waste the season. Yes, yes. I just, it's such a bold thing to say. I don't think I'd be brave enough to say it to someone.

But don't waste the suffering. Yeah. Because you'll never get it back. And the things you learn in the valley and the things that you feel and experience with God and with other people and that you learn about yourself...

you can't replace it. You can't. I look back at those days where I couldn't get out of bed. Those were the moments. He was just right there. I was in his arms. I look back, it was the most beautiful times. Now, I thought it was the most painful. It was actually the most beautiful. Right. It's confusing. Yeah. And I just thank you for just saying everything about therapy. And sometimes people do need medication because I think

That's one of the biggest questions that people ask through depression. Is it bad? Is it evil to take medication? Is it bad to just to talk to a therapist and not just go to God? And I just love that you were so open and raw about that in your book. But therapy isn't.

you know, magic. It's just someone to listen and it's someone to help you make sense of, you know, it's someone to help you untangle your emotions. I mean, this was like therapy shaped a lot of this book for me, the Bible and therapy shaped a lot of this and a lot of the research I did. And then of course, just my own life and what I've learned. And I mean, Dr. Kurt Thompson is, is my hero, my therapist, but also brilliant writer. And yeah, he's, he's brilliant. And he,

He has taught me a lot of this. I mean, I dedicated the book to him and our little small group because this is a road that what therapy does is it does help you untangle it a little bit. It helps you. And when I use the word untangle, it was because...

I felt like a mix-up mess. I pictured myself with all these knots and tangles. And it was like, ew, like even dealing with it. It was like, how do I even tug this string? Because I'm afraid the whole thing's going to fall apart. But then when you do it over time, right? And no therapy works really fast. But when you do it over time, what therapy does is it pulls out a string and you look at it together and you go, wow, man, I sure have been hurt by that. And you feel like, what's the point?

But then all of a sudden, the next time, for me, it was work, things to do with work. And so I kept getting so anxious with things with work. And I thought, gosh, I'm doing what I love. I'm gifted to do it. God's given me the opportunity to do it. I'm supposed to be doing it. Why do I have so much anxiety around that? And I just got tired of it. And so that's why I started, again, going to therapy. We did it for marriage. We did it. We've done it three or four different seasons of our life. And what therapy did was...

We just started pulling on strings for my life, figuring it out. Like, wow, you felt pressure your whole life. Yeah. Since you were 12. And your dad pulled you on his lap. And he was like, do you think you're going to make homecoming this year? Do you think you're going to make straight A's? And he's just talking to his little girl that he probably doesn't know how to talk to. She's preteen. Wow. But I was making a list in my head. I need to make straight A's. I need to get on homecoming. I've made a list to make him happy. And all that began like...

I've got to measure up. I've got to measure up. And then I get into ministry and all of a sudden now they're paying me to write books and now, and I have to hit the mark and I have to measure up. And so what therapy did was it went back to my 12 year old.

What did that feel like? And all of a sudden I'm sharing these moments that are embarrassing. Like I'm cringing right now because some people are like, I was abused at 12. You didn't get on homecoming. And I'm like, no, that's not what I'm saying. It was just this theme, right? And I will say for most people, it's not the big stories. It's the little things. It's the little things we pick up.

The trauma certainly is real and it's big, but it's the little moments where somebody said something that made us realize, oh, wow, we aren't good enough. I know. And so those moments are vulnerable to share. And so I started sharing them and all of a sudden it was crazy. I remember calling my therapist and just saying, or counselor and just saying,

Dr. Kurt, like, how, why am I different? Like, I was, I was in a situation where I should have been anxious and I didn't feel anxious anymore. Like, what did you do? How did that work? And he said, real simply, he was like, you just don't feel alone anymore. Isn't that great? Wow. Gosh, I love that so much. And you figured out the triggers of when you were a kid. So then you're like, oh, I feel this way. I feel the trigger. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. What did you say before? The neural pathways, they start to like, they heal. They heal. It's amazing that our brains can do that. I really, one last thing that I want to talk about is you've been married for...

How many years? We've been married 27, 26. That's unbelievable. 26 years, four children. What's the secret? Can we talk about your marriage? That served us well. You know what? I think you have to go through hard together at some point. And you might do it when you're engaged. You might do it when you're dating. You might do it when you first get married. But you'll go through hard at some point. And what hard does is it changes your expectations.

So no longer is it about him meeting your needs or him being the perfect husband or him being what you thought he was going to be or you being what you thought you were going to be. Then the game becomes survival. Then the game becomes we got to get through this, even if the heart is your marriage. And so then you're a team. And you figure out how to be a team. And once you move from I need you to meet all my expectations to we're a team, you

and we're gonna obey God together wow and we won't meet each other's expectations and there will be seasons where you're comatose for a year because you walk through massive depression wow and for me it will be you know I'm get well my thing I'm embarrassed I'm like a selfish brat sometimes you know so that's my that's my that's my lovely contribution to the marriage I had no idea what

I was a little embarrassed to say it, but I'm like, that's what he'd say. He's like, yeah, she's a selfish brat sometimes. So whatever your thing is, it's like, yeah, yeah, he doesn't do this and I don't do this. But then at some point you just go, man, we love each other because of what we've been through. We love each other because we built a life together. Yeah.

I think he is as sexy as ever. I love him. I am so madly in love with him. I think our kids get grossed out because we're so in love. And it wasn't always like that. And so they know that. They know that it was hard work. But the work was so worth it. And he's my best friend. And it's over time, you know? I'm glad we didn't give up. Year five was a... I always felt like we wanted to... Did you ever think of... Oh, for sure. Really? I remember how we ended up in therapy the first time was...

I woke up and he just... I mean, I talk a little bit in the book about it. He was emotionally... He didn't know how to deal with any emotions. He had no tools. He was emotionally very low on the IQ maturity test. And...

But to him, he was like, he was like, I am very mature. Like I am not a drama queen like my wife, you know? And so he thought, oh, I hope she matures to be like me. And, and then we go to counseling and it's like, why can't you be sad? Like, why can't she be sad and disappointed in you? And you lean into that. Like what, why? And he's like, I don't, I can't be like, he was a quarterback for in college and in high school. And so he had just learned, like, you can't have emotion, pull it together.

So all that to say, I do feel like he learned emotions. And I think that's a really encouraging thing too, is you can learn it. And he learned it. And he, it was funny. And he was an emotional toddler for a while. Like you're just, I turned the wrong way. He'd cuss. And I was like, he'd never cussed in his life. And I was like, what is happening? But he just felt all this strong emotion. And then now our kids would say he is way more emotional than me. He cries all the time. He cries every time I speak.

Every time. I come off. I'm so happy for him. He is wiping, wiping tears. Was this after his depression? Yes. Wow. So he learned about emotions and then walks through the depression, but that just made him the most tender man in the world. Oh, it does. It makes you so tender. So tender. Okay, can I ask you another? This is what we do all day. I love it. Can I ask you a question? Please. So obviously, like we said, not married, right? We...

This is something that I think I wrestle with and...

I, like, of course, want to get married. Divorce is not an option forever, one person. What do you do? I have this idea in my head that God can, because you know that the honeymoon stage doesn't last, and you know that there are seasons where you're not as in love as you were in the beginning, and love, it evolves and it transforms almost into more of, like, respect than that puppy love feeling.

Do you think that God can like revive feelings of being in love between you and your spouse? Do you think that it's something you can pray for? It's a really hard question because I actually have friends that have prayed that for a long time and feel like God hasn't answered. And I would just say, you know, we all want that, right? And I've never, I've never, I tell her to keep praying that.

But what I love about one friend in particular is she shows up and she does the work in marriage and you do the work anyway. And God bless his obedience. It may not be how you want it.

But he does bless it. And so I pray that they have a similar story to us where we wanted to end our marriage and we were so unhappy. Wow. And now we, like, we have... I mean, like, I literally feel giddy. Like, I will see him today when I get off the plane and my heart will, like, race. I will be so happy to see him. And I'm so in love with him. But without that, we did the right things. Like, we still...

and we invest in our marriage. And I would just say fight for it. Fight for it. Fight for it. Do the best you can. Remember, too, a whole other book, Get Out of Your Head, where I write about the power of our thoughts, and it's like feed thoughts of...

gratitude and affection and feed that because if you feed dissatisfaction, discontentment, it's going to grow. If you feed gratitude, it grows. So, you know, there's things you can do just to appreciate your husband. That feeling, even when I feel it right now, it's so fast. Like I'm not feeling it on a given Tuesday, right? I'll feel it. I'll feel it. Oh, it'll surprise me. But it happens still.

But that doesn't matter. I could live without that because he's my best friend, and we fought for that. And that's something you can do. You can be good friends. You can be a good friend to each other. And do you feel like now that he's more emotional, you just connect so much more and your relationship is stronger? He would laugh at that because he'd be like, well, I do. Jenny doesn't. I mean, it's hard for me. I have to work. Emotions are a muscle that I've had to grow.

grow. Yeah. Because I did, I think since that Navy SEAL season, and then also what I, what I wrote about after COVID, that season, I tend to numb out. That's a place I go to survive. So yeah, I think for sure him, I mean, he, he is way more gushy about everything. And yeah, he's so romantic. He's, he's, he's, I'm making him look good right now. I'm going to make him, let him listen

listen to this and then he's gonna be like you're gonna get me in bed now um because that's how it goes but i yeah i i yeah it is it is worth the wait i'll say this because i know y'all are waiting right now and people listening are waiting it is worth the wait for a good man when i walked down the aisle i wasn't sure he was for sure 100 god's best for me i didn't that's okay we just wanted to ask

So what I knew was, and I had to make a list. We were engaged. I had a ring on my finger. And I remember we were on like a little hike together. And in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, I don't know that we should be engaged. I don't know that I'm sure. And so I went home from that hike and I made a list. And I was like, okay, what do I know about him? And it was like, he has integrity. People respect him, what he says he does.

He is a leader. He's not, when we fought, we get on our knees and he leads us to do that. He knows God. He knows his word. He wants to be faithful. He wants to be holy. He was reading a book on holiness at the time. Wow.

I couldn't argue. It was like, I am not outside of the will of God here. Right? Yeah. It's like, do I have all the feelings all the time? I didn't. Do I feel 100% certainty? I don't know how you do. I'm sure there are people that do. Yeah. But how could you? I mean, it's forever. Yeah. It's just such a big commitment. So I think doubt is fine. It's, it's, doubt is a feeling that can go away. What, what,

What I felt and what I knew was the word of God says this is a godly man. Right. And he was a godly man. Wow. And so I knew I was in the will of God because of his character. Wow. Not because I had a feeling. Yeah. So important. It is. I think, okay, because something I've been wrestling with God with for a while is like

I, if I could have one wish, it would be that God would take my free will away from me. I don't want it. I don't want to choose. Like, I just want him to prop him right in front of me. Right in the sky, babe. Exactly. This is your person. I just, and so, but I've realized recently, like, even in picking who your partner is going to be, like, that's just as much our choice as anything else. Yeah.

And, like, maybe this idea of having a soulmate and when you meet them, it's the one person that since birth God chose for you. Maybe it's that actually we have...

exactly that we have a choice of a lot of people but we get to make that decision and that's why you might not have 100% peace about it yeah and I also think that idea of soulmate means you could miss him yeah and you could they could be out there and you wouldn't find him you know so so I think how I view it is is he sovereign over who we marry yeah he's

sovereign over everything so and are there going to be humans that exist with dna because yours match with somebody else like that's real is he sovereign over that yeah he knows how it's going to go down so there is sovereignty i believe over but at the same time as far as we're concerned

It's our choice, and he won't let us miss it if we're following him. You know, see, he first the kingdom of God, and all these other things are going to be added to you. What it means is, like, you stay so close to God that you're going to be in his will. You're not going to miss something. Like, everything you need is going to be right there. Oh, thank you, Jesus. Sorry. I just freed something in my heart. Sometimes there's 7 billion people in the world, and I'm like, we are the men. Like, it's hard. Yeah.

Can I ask you one more thing? So this is the last question. I'd stay all day, girl. This is so fun. No, because we're obsessed with you now. We need your brain all the time. Well, I promise to be available. You will have my number anytime. I am so blessed. Finding your husband, do you think... I'm sorry.

By the way, this is everybody's favorite part by a mile. I know, 100%. 100%. I'm laughing. No, finding your husband, do you think you just...

Sit back. Let God take care of it for you. Or do we have to go looking? Or will it come to you when you least expect it? Shut up, Angela. This is as hard a question as, like, why is there suffering in the world? How do I find a husband? Did it just come to you? Yeah. I mean, I think it's okay. Like, I just think grace. I think grace for, like...

I just, I don't think there's a way. I don't think it's always, you hear people's stories that love God and it's always different. Sometimes it's she asked him out. Sometimes it's they were on an app. Sometimes it's they were, you know, they stumbled each other in a bar and they love Jesus. Like it's just, there's not, I don't think there's one way. I think, I think it's all about trust. It's like, Lord,

can you carry this? Yeah. Like, if you want me to get on an app, I'll get on an app. I have friends that, like, that was just sheer obedience for them. And sure enough, that's how they met their husband. That's crazy. And so it's like, Lord, I want what you want. So would you just prompt me and help me not be afraid and help me not have pride and just...

Like that is a way a lot of people meet these days. I don't think that's an evil way to meet. I think it's a hard way. It's a hard way to meet. It's a really hard way to meet because it's a lot of work. I mean, all my friends on those apps, it's like, it's a full-time job, you know? But all that to say, I think you can put yourself in places to meet people. Absolutely. Like just, yes, like whatever, just it's okay. And he knows the desires of our heart and we're not messing it up somehow because we want it.

We're not messing it up somehow because we, you know, sometimes get manipulative about it. You know what I mean? It's just, it's okay. Like, he gets it. And I think just keep inviting him into it and saying, God, you know, I'll get off this road. I won't do this. Like, you just got to tell me. But you're not going to miss him. You're not going to miss him. Thank you. Here's the thing, and everybody single needs to hear this. Y'all are tearing it up.

And there's nothing, it's just like don't waste your suffering. Don't waste your singleness. Because there is something about what y'all are doing right now, even this conversation, that three married girls talking about it, even if y'all were the same age, it would not be as impactful. Thank you.

So don't waste this. You get to do ministry right now that's unique to this season. And you get to have freedoms that are unique to the season. Run with it. And y'all are. I have chill bumps that you just said that because we talk about this all the time. It wouldn't have gone any other way if we were both married. People relate and people feel comforted because we're together in this, in the singleness season, and it's just so God ordained. Yeah, and y'all are doing a great job. Thank you so much. And setting a great model for everybody listening.

yeah thank you we appreciate you so much this was one of my favorite conversations we've ever had oh this was my favorite actually yeah it is our favorite thank you so much you guys please watch online we'll put it in the bio if gathering it's the 23rd and the 24th february 23rd and 24th and of this month and then get jenny allen's book untangle your emotions jenny we adore you we'll be

calling you all day. We love you. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. May the Lord bless you and keep you. May he make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you. May he turn his face towards you and give you peace. We love you guys so much. We love you guys.