'Yellowjackets' Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive
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This episode is brought to you by Metro by T-Mobile. Nothing, and I mean nothing, is worse than settling for less. And we all do it to ourselves, whether it's sitting through a bad date or staying in a relationship that didn't meet our standards. Well, I think we deserve better, and so does Metro. They believe that instead of settling, you should get great deals on 5G devices from top brands like Samsung with no contracts, no credit checks, no exploding bills, and nada, yada, yada.

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This episode is brought to you by Marvel Television's Daredevil Born Again. Charlie Cox returns as vigilante lawyer Matt Murdock and Vincent D'Onofrio as former mob boss Wilson Fisk. The darker side of Matt Murdock is revealed when he gains a new perspective on his role as the Daredevil and faces an internal struggle between justice and revenge. The devil's work is never done. Don't miss the two-episode premiere of Daredevil Born Again on March 4th only on Disney+.

I didn't burn down your cabin. Prove it. Yeah? With a high school mock trial at the end of the fucking world? I'm in a jail with birds, Misty. Hello! Guess what? This is House of R. I'm Joya Robinson. That's Mally Rubin. I am waiting for my karma to go plate. Where is it? Snacky's back. Frozen as always. And we're here. Mm-hmm. To solve a murder. Yeah. It's Yellow Jackets. Yeah. Season 3, episode 4. Yeah.

And that's what we're here today to talk about. We are. Next week, however, it's Daredevil time, baby. Can't fucking wait. We already did our Daredevil sort of moments, superlatives pod. We rewatched all of Daredevil. We talked about it literally yesterday. That is up in the feed, so you can check that out. But next week, both the Midnight Boys, pew, pew, and House of R will have our reactions to the first two episodes of Daredevil.

Daredevil Born Again on Disney Plus. Oh, the Greenwald Plus. Yeah. Yeah. I like it. I can't not. I know. It's infectious. Yeah, it is. He's a trendsetter. He is. He's always been a trailblazer and a trendsetter. Always. We will not, however, have a Yellow Jackets episode next week. Yes. But we will be coming back the following week to do a twofer, five and six together. So we're not abandoning Yellow Jackets. Just stop.

But the reason we're not doing Yellowjackets next week is we are doing a very special. It's awards weekend this weekend. The Oscars are this weekend. And even more importantly, the Versys are next week. Everyone's actual favorite March award show. The Versys. The Versys. Yeah. So it's House of Midnight Time. That's right. We're all coming together to give our best of.

2024 content that you definitely remember happened. For our random categories that we made up because we like certain things. It's the best. I'm really excited about my category. Your category is great. Your category is, I think, usually your category. Very unbranded. Very unbranded. So that's the Versys. That will be, you'll be able to listen and watch the Versys next week on the Ringerverse YouTube channel. And also, I just want to shout out that Button Mash channel.

Is doing something that I don't know what it is, but I bet it's great. It's split fiction and Joseph Fares. And I don't know what that is, but I support Ben Lindbergh always with my heart and my soul. What about your mind? Yeah, he's got that too. Great. Full body support for Ben Lindbergh. Okay. That's a lot of fun things going on. Sure is. How can folks keep track of all that stuff, Mallory Rubin? It's simple. Here's what I would do. Follow the pod. Okay. Follow House of R. Where?

on Spotify, where you can watch full video episodes of this podcast, of House of R. You can also watch House of R on the Ringerverse YouTube channel, and you can listen to it anywhere you get your podcasts. How wonderful for you. Wonderful for you. Wonderful for you. That's a White Lotus reference. Follow the Prestige TV podcast as well. Follow the Ringerverse.

And then you'll get all of our pods. Fantastic. Here's what else you can do. You can follow the ringer verse on the social media platform of your choosing. Where might that be? That is for you and you alone to decide, but we're out there waiting for you. And of course, please send us your emails. The inbox is always open. Hobbits and dragons and dragons at gmail.com. Great. Back to you in the studio. Buzz buzz bitches. Yeah. Season three, episode four, 12, 30 girls and one drunk Travis.

Directed by Jennifer Morrison, who I don't know for her directing, but I know for her acting. She was an original cast member of House and the lead of Once Upon a Time. You a House head? I have seen probably all of House, but I don't like rewatch it regularly. I've never seen House. Have you watched any of Once Upon a Time?

I want to say maybe the premiere. Yeah. And then a number of commercials for it that aired during or after football games. Cool. So this is, so you never saw Sebastian Stan as the Mad Hatter? No. Okay. No, I didn't have the pleasure. Well. No, I did not have the pleasure. That's waiting for you someday. Fantastic. So Jennifer Morrison directed this episode written by Julia Bicknell and Terry Wesley. I have a question for you. Yes, ma'am. Just starting with the title.

12 Angry Girls and One Drunk Travis, we are, of course, invoking 12 Angry Men. This is a trial episode. That all makes sense to me. Was it clear to you watching this episode that Travis was supposed to be drunk in any kind of meaningful fashion? It was not. Yeah. I will say that Travis is in, as we have been accustomed to finding him, an emotional state.

And contemplative state. He is spending the beginning portion of this episode in a hammock. That seems to be his spot. That I thought was, frankly, like the response that that sparked in me was, are we sure crashing in the wilderness and being abandoned to your fate is that bad? Because that hammock life looked great.

I thought that looked wonderful. A really, like, beautiful shade structure that both provides shade, but, like, you still feel like you're out in the air. I mean, the thing you know about me is... The art of your dead brother who you ate all around you. Took a bite of his raw heart. But did you really know him until you decked...

Your hammock canopy. Do we ever really know each other until we've bedecked our hammock canopy? We don't. So, you know, I got vibes from Travis. He was moved to tears during the trial. He also shook his head a lot. But I did not think that he was drunk. And in part, that's because we have seen Travis, of course, with the mushrooms and Lottie pushing him to consume the druggie tea in a very heightened state of...

an altered mind. This just seemed like Travis was kind of hanging out. Also, I don't know that this is always the case. Maybe it's about how sloshily and sloppily anybody is consuming the homemade brew at a given point. But I am accustomed to seeing like a lot of- A stained mouth. Yeah, if they have been drinking the juice. And I did not clock that on Travis. Yeah, it was like, I think it's just like a really weird, I would have just-

called it 12 angry girls or something as you know when they released this this title you were like there will be a trial because it's a very clear reference as you noted and i was like maybe this is an orgy and alas i was right you were you were indeed or 12 angry girls and travis something like that you know what i mean like i had to get travis in there somehow i mean i'm glad he's represented he has like two lines this episode i think yeah one gallery curator travis

One hammock enthusiast, Travis. One on a hair journey, Travis. What do you call the artist in like a courtroom artist? Oh, yeah. The sketch artist. There's an actual name for that that I do not know. It's not a stenographer. We have computers in front of us. We could Google it right now. But will we? I'm going to do it. But will we? You have to vamp. Hold on. I loved the hammock. I thought it was great. Have you ever had a hammock? I think it's just courtroom artists. That was a fucking letdown. What a fucking letdown.

My parents had a hammock on their deck. Yeah. Yeah. Like a freestanding in like the metal sort of like situation. And we're talking bare rope. Raw dogging it on the rope or any sort of like. I don't want to. I don't want to. No. Confirm or deny that I was raw dogging it on the rope as a child. Okay. But. Okay. So no like cushion on top or like a blanket. I think there was once upon a time like a. Like a.

A green. I bet this is like a Brookstone joint. And I bet there was like a green sort of pad. Exactly what I was thinking of. I was literally thinking of the Brookstone green striped pad, which my mom had on our hammock in the yard. But I think we like lost the pad and then it was just rope. The thing about that, I mean, you grew up in California, though, Northern California. But in Maryland, let me tell you that any kind of outdoor cushion or fabric didn't hold up.

over the course of four seasons. Oh, because you have weather. Weather. We had something on the East Coast called weather. We had like light fog in the morning. Yeah, you guys had clouds that then blew away a marine layer. Is that what they call it? Google. I love the marine layer. I do too. Yeah. I really love Northern California, as you know. But then we would go to the Outer Banks.

And there was usually a hammock below the beach house. We're doing great on our vow to each other to have a tight, short pod today. But you know what? You told me you canceled your meeting. I'm thrilled to be here. And there was always a raw hammock.

Rope only. Yeah. And on the one hand, I felt more in touch with the world around me in that scenario than a padded hammock. But it did, you know, it kind of, it would hurt sometimes. It's rough on the gentle skin. There's the rope hammock. Sensitive skin. The rope hammock with like, it still has like the boards at the end of it. Yes, of course. But then there's like the fine mesh hammock that you have to sort of like scoop your way into. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. That like hugs you tightly, but maybe too tightly. You get like little waffle marks on your skin sometimes. Yeah. Okay. Yes, you do. Should we get a hammock for the studio? Have you ever done a pod from a hammock? Should we try? That's awesome.

100% something we should do. What do you think? Should we pod from hammocks? I can't see a lot in general in the studio or in general because I've yet to go to the eye doctor, but I can see through the glare John Richter smiling and enthusiastically giving us a thumbs up. And that's what we need for hammock podding. Hammock podding in Studio C? Hammock podding at gmail.com. Should we hammock pod in the void? That would be great. I think

You're more familiar with the void than I am, but I feel like we'd have to hang the hammocks from the ceiling in the void because of space. I think it should be one hammock, us sort of like not lengthwise, but sort of like sitting in it side by side doing a pod. Great. Some cushions? Perhaps. Little cup holders made of rope for our various beverages. Beveraginos? Yeah. No free ads? Okay. Let's get some LaCroix's in there.

What's on the menu this week? Oh, boy. At Yellow Jackets? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Would you rather eat...

Shauna's meal prep tapioca. She seemed like she was having a great time. Much to Misty's dismay. I should also note, so she was like stirring a vat. It wasn't actually even a vat. It was like a large mixing bowl of tapioca. And then her workspace was positively strewn in Brussels sprouts. Yes, I did. I noticed that with dismay. What does that do? I mean, I love a Brussels sprout. Me too. It's prepared properly. Okay, I hate tapioca. We can talk about that later.

Would you rather eat Shauna's meal prep tapioca, Van's shaky-handed Central Park pretzel, Shauna's frozen meat battering ram? Obviously no. Snacky. Certainly not because I, were it me, I would not eat my friend. Or Randy's assorted snacks and bevs? Randy being sent off.

snacks and sodas yeah in a state of despondence that he's not able to work the room as naturally as you know frankly a gifted orator like Jeff yeah I am gonna go here with so here's the thing I want all your tapioca thoughts but we know it's canon I'm sorry but it's Cali canon that Shauna's a shitty cook

But anyone can make tapioca, can they not? I would not. Well, I don't know. Never tried. Because it seems disgusting. But don't you think at, well, I know I think tapioca is disgusting, but don't you think that- Is it a texture thing for you? Yes. I love it. It's the worst of all the textures. What do you mean? You don't like a chewy- I don't like boba either. Oh, I like a boba. I have to be in the mood. You don't want to have to chew your drink or chew your pudding. But what about like a banana pudding with a wafer? Banana pudding is cooked fruit, dude.

Okay. Well, you're right. I wouldn't think of it as cooked fruit, but I guess, yeah, it's a no-go. No fly zones for you. That's deep in my marrow, no. Oh, my God. But it's so creamy and delicious. That's not the thumbnail.

I don't want it. Steve, you have your episode art. You got it mere 15 minutes in. We're probably 30 minutes in. I don't even know. That's not it. Okay, so no banana pudding. You don't like tapioca pudding. You don't like the texture of a boba. I love that chew. Interesting. We won't be doing bobas in our hammock pod. Got it. I like Jell-O.

As I believe I've told you before, Jell-O was my bat mitzvah theme. I do know that. If I know one thing about you, it's that Jell-O was your bat mitzvah theme. Haven't had it in a while, but used to love it. Don't you think that this tapioca comes from a mix, is my point. Don't you think even fucking Shauna can mix some tapioca? She was so distracted rocking out to Ace of Base, and frankly, who among us? Who among us? I bet the Ace of Base just made the tapioca sludge better. It's always a throw when Yellowjacket sends us into...

The cocoon, the welcoming cocoon and embrace of nostalgia with a needle drop. But that was a huge one for me. Oh, my God. Two absolute 1993 bangers. Holy shit. Because we got Linger, which is...

Just when they play Linger by the Cranberries on Yellow Jackets, I'm like, how are we in season three and we haven't gotten Linger already? Yeah, well, I guess there was just a lot of music back then. But you're right. That is a surprising restraint on their part. I don't want the meat ram. Okay. Well, I don't want Shauna's frozen meat ram from... It's Friday.

And you've already said raw dogging rope. Honestly, I'd love a meat ram, but I don't want this meat ram. Definitely don't want snacky. So I guess I'm considering either the Park Pretzel or Randy's Assorted Snacks and Bev's.

I love a soft pretzel. This is something you should know about me. I fucking love a soft pretzel. I love a soft pretzel. If I'm at an airport. Oh. And I see an Auntie Anne's, I'm like, you know what? I'm so stressed. Will I make the flight? Do I have time for my pre-flight? Pre? I'm with this headache, guys. Pre-flight ritual?

I'm always like drawn to the idea of a soft pretzel, but then I think, should I have that much butter before flight? Maybe not. So then what it really makes me think, of course, is New York mall food court. Soft pretzel at a mall food court. It always feels Maryland. It always feels mall. I've had an Antiem, but like Antiem is usually like cinnamon sugar pretzel.

No. That is an offering, but the buttery salty one. I like a classic New York City pretzel that is not dripping in butter. It is just deeply salty and soft and delicious. Too dry. No, delicious. Too dry for the meat. I'm so sorry. The thing is, though, you're not. That's the thing. That's...

That's the real thing. I'm so sorry. I think that kind of pretzel that's been sitting there overly baking. No, can I just say that I've had— So delicious, but like— I will accept this besmirching of a New York staple. I will say this. I've had some not great pretzels out of a pretzel cart in New York, but I've had some of the best pretzels of my life out of a pretzel cart. Agreed, but did these look like—

Best pretzels of your life? Actually, yes, because they have quite a squish to them. When she grasped them in her shaky paw. Too hard on the bottom, I can tell you. There was a considerable squish factor to the pretzels as she grasped them. You for sure need to pair that with a fountain soda or something. A Topo Chico. Oh, a Topo Chico would be great.

Nice. New season of Shorzy. Topo Chico's are unbelievable. That's what they would say on Shorzy. Have you, I know you've watched Shorzy, but you haven't watched Letterkenny? No, but we're going to. We caught up on, we watched, binged Shorzy like a month and a half, I guess over the holidays. What month is it? It's almost the end of February, so two months ago. Letterkenny is forever altered and improved by the experience. Can't wait. I feel like, it's like,

It's like 11 seasons. Some of the things I say, some of my vocal tics are now going to become apparent to you that I just stole the letter, Kenny. Interesting. Welcome to finding me unoriginal. Okay, so you're going with pretzels. I'm going with Randy's assorted snacks and bevs. I trust Randy to bring the snacks and bevs. Ah.

I mean, he's literally a professional. I will never say I trust Randy about anything. This guy had one job and it was to not say anything about the blackmail to anyone. And then he had a second job and it was to jack off into the condom and he filled it with cheap motel lotion instead. I can't trust. I will never say the sentence out loud. I trust Randy. I trust Randy to bring me snacks and beverages, which is very different from I trust Randy in any of my criminal enterprises or

Or to jack off into the space that I asked him to. Like, I don't. But if he's like, if I'm like, hey, will you go to the pantry? Yeah. And bring back some salty snacks and like some cookies. Yeah. And a beverage, you know. And he's not, he didn't get shopping. Though, maybe he did. Maybe he showed up. Maybe part of his day there was bringing the Swift Eats.

You know, he is curious. I just said he was a professional. That's why I said that. He opened the bag. We know. And this I thought was a violation. But he told Callie he looked in the bag.

When he brought her all of the food and gore. You prefer when your bags are like stapled shut from the voluminous... I don't think Randy should be looking. Unless he was doing the shopping. Okay. You know what we haven't started to do? Talking about the episode of television? Okay. Unreliable narrator hallucinator dream counter. We got Misty in the tapioca scene. You know, we got Misty... Oh, you're right. I forgot. Imagining that she was stabbing Shauna, which I actually did not like because...

because this was one of our critiques occasionally of season two. Yeah. Sometimes the dreams, hallucinations, unreliable narrator is very compelling inside of this universe and heightens our question of what is real. Great. But that distinction of like,

Does the character know versus do we know? Is it confusing for the sake of being confusing? It felt like they were trying to do like a little fake out. Yeah. And I'm like, come on. Misty's not going to stab Sean in the kitchen. But also then it makes you wonder when did in that scene, in that conversation, did we shift into this is playing out as a dark fantasy in Misty's mind versus, and I think you can track it with the music. It's just that little stretch. But in general, I don't want to have to be thinking about those things when we're watching. Right? I thought this was-

I thought this was... When Ben is in a dream hallucination with his lost boyfriend. Yeah. That's interesting. That stuff's great. Yeah. But Misty just like not stabbing Charlotte. When we're huffing cave guests. Exactly. Fine. Love. I mean, not as much as Lottie loves. She's like, take me there now. Now! Guess what you don't do? Take Lottie to a cave where she can huff more things. She's desperate to re-commune. Yeah.

I do not think this is a tremendously great episode of television. This is not my favorite. We got the trial. We got a bunch of like, I thought really the modern storyline. I thought, I thought Ben's speech and testimony was some of the best stuff we've seen on the show. Yes. I like that a lot. So that happens in this episode. I thought some of the trial stuff was like kind of,

bizarre to me. And I feel like the modern storyline was like really tortured in terms of like trying to contrive a circumstance where now we have a bunch of suspects to...

the murder, if indeed it was a murder, I will get to that question in a second, of Lottie at the end of this episode. So, like, we have weird shit, like, Shauna went to Manhattan to get a cat, you know what I mean? Like, just, like, really... Or Van and Ty separate for no reason other than to, like, make it unclear who killed Lottie. All of, like, you're just really feeling the, like...

The gears... I'm going to say that again. Just really feeling the gears grinding on the contortions of the plot in this episode. Even just Jeff... I thought that everything with Jeff being moved to seek karma points was actually pretty compelling, but the fact that they wind up at Missy's job... In general, I thought that the... I think Warren Cole can sell anything. Anything. And sometimes not enough credenzas. This... But...

Yeah, maybe not furniture, but in terms of lines, like...

This whole thing is like if I'm an actor, I get this plot and it's like suddenly my character is obsessed with karma points. No, I'm like this. I can't sell this. Yeah. And Warren Cole's like he did in my sleep. He did. Yeah. Easy. He's wonderful as always. I thought the thing that I did that I did not particularly enjoy as you're I'm with you on this episode was in the modern storyline again, kind of pulled me back into when season two felt like it.

went off of the very contained, confident, this is moving in a clear direction season one tracks. When season two went off of those tracks, I think it was often because the characters in the modern present storyline were behaving in ways that did not make sense. Like, why would Shauna do this thing? We talked about that a lot in season two. And there were a number of examples of that as you outlined in this episode. And I think that that's just like not... I don't know why. Because the show doesn't need to...

enter into tortured logic or mystery for the sake of it. The core inherent mysteries are compelling enough and the character dynamics are undeniably compelling enough.

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We don't need that kind of tortured logic and the forced extra layer of the whodunit or why or whomstiswherewhen mystery because the core mysteries of the show are compelling enough. And undeniably, the character dynamics are compelling enough. So when we luxuriate in that and the show is operating at that high frequency...

And it's often the most entertaining, whether it's the best is almost a different thing, but it can often be the most entertaining hour of like the week. But this felt like a backslide in a way that has me like a little worried about the rest of the season, though. Hopefully it's just a blip and we're right back where we need to be next. I think my main concern, even more so than anything else, is that.

I'm not like not interested in Nat anymore because present day Nat is no longer with us. But like that character has sort of stalled out a bit and when she's like one of the most compelling. Yeah. The real tough time I'm having right now, especially out of this episode, is with Shauna. Because Shauna is so fundamentally important to us.

I don't need Shauna to be likable. Like, that's a trap that we fall in all the time with female characters. I don't need that. I always need the characters to be root-for-able in some way. I will root for a murderer if they are compelling enough. I'll root for fucking Lestat to drain all of New Orleans. Like, I don't really care. So it's not... I understood that reference. Yeah, you did. It's not like, it's not like likability. It's root-for-ableness. That's not a word. And I think that, like,

And I understand the trauma space she's in and I understand everything that she's gone through. But like Shauna's hard line on the Ben trial. Yeah. I thought her testimony was really compelling when she was talking about her experience, her experience and him abandoning her.

And I thought his then subsequent apology also was very compelling. Yeah. But the fact that like everyone is like moved and she is just in an un-nuanced anger space. Yeah. We don't have enough to support that. Yeah. It's just like it doesn't feel like the complexities of what that character and what that performer is capable of. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I think like...

Because we've gotten, and we got, you know, at the end of last season, there's a kind of callback in the examination. Well, didn't you think it should have been you last season? They didn't say last season on the show. What were saying last season? And we had seen Shauna scrawling exactly that in her journal. Like, how could it not have been me? Misty's pretty perceptive. Definitely. And then, you know, at the beginning of this season, we open with the collective, and then Shauna removed and apart...

chronicling her dismay. And we really felt that separation. I think Shauna making the case at the end, how can you guys allow this to stand? Clearly this person does not care about us and meant us harm. And then nobody agreeing with her.

I would have bought... So for me, it was a little less her rigidity because that felt more in sync with where she has been the last few episodes and more the effect that had on the group. But...

So I'm open to that feeling like it clicks into place over the next few episodes because obviously in general, part of what we like and enjoy tracking over the episodes with the show is the way that the dynamics shift, who is loyal to whom at a given point and who is poised to take over. The other thing about this episode, though, that that makes me think of is like this was a little bit of like a saying the quiet part out loud episode as well. Yeah.

the concept of a trial brings that to the fore. You are tasked, whether you are in the witness box or prosecuting or defending, with saying the thing. I guess what I mean more is Mel going up to Shauna at the end and saying, like, that's power. It's like, yeah. The Lady Macbeth thing. Interesting. Did you just hear my knee crack? Nope. It's one thing when I move my arms and my shoulder cracks, but a knee crack is, well, maybe I'm just thinking about Mari. And why wouldn't we be? Our new favorite!

What a shock and a twist. Okay. Before we get to Mari and her reaction to being called to the stand, let's talk about this idea of the trial. Something I thought was interesting. I was like looking up, I mean, I've seen 12 Angry Men a million times, and that's certainly on our mind when they're like re-voting, re-voting, re-voting at the end. You know what else I was thinking of with the re-voting was Conclave. You love Conclave. I really enjoyed Conclave. Yeah. Yeah. I did. Not one of my three favorite movies of the year. Is it going to win Best Picture? Um...

I was listening to the big pick predictions and Sean really seemed sure that it was just a two movie race at this point, that it was down to just a Nora and Conclave. But so I don't know. That made me think maybe. But I still think a Nora. It's a Nora. Yeah. I still think it'll be a Nora. It won't be Dune Part 2, which I don't understand. Baffling and sad. I don't understand. As you know, my three favorite movies of the year were Dune Part 2.

And a complete unknown. I do know that about you. Timmy and cats. A trial. Yes. I was like, was there ever like a mock trial in Lord of the Flies? There isn't. But what I did find out is that apparently...

The trial of Jack from Lord of the Flies. Did you ever do this? It's a very popular like school mock trial scenario. I did mock trial in school, but we did like a very boring like who stole this car trial, I think, or something like that. We didn't do. Should we go back to school and do trial on Jack? Can you defend this fictional character? That sounds way more fun and interesting to do a mock trial. Yeah. But apparently this is like a really popular. And you just say Piggy's name out loud a lot. You just say Piggy? Yeah. Okay. Piggy.

Okay. Because of what he did. Yeah. But did you know this? Did you know that, like, the Trial of Jack was, like, a popular mock trial thing? I never did Trial of Jack. This sounds familiar to me, but I don't know why I would have known this. Uh...

And sadly did not get to participate in such an exercise. Would have been thrilling. Would have been really fun. Yeah. This was the single most Lord of the Flies episode of Yellow Jackets. Correct. Yeah, that's why I thought I was like, I couldn't remember. I was like, did they do something similar in Lord of the Flies? Not that I can deduce. But even just with like the conch shell and just this, all of the pursuits of order. That's what I'm saying. Children pursuing order and justice. Let's talk about the pomp and circumstance of this trial. So like,

We talked a lot last season as they sort of transitioned into this, like, wilderness cult and letting the cards decide, stuff like that. This idea of abdicating responsibility for the hard choices that they're making. Right. And that's something, you know, we were like, oh, the wilderness decided. It wasn't us. Right. And I thought it was interesting inside this episode when they described it as Nat's talking about pulling the card and the way they describe it is like when the wilderness chose Javi. Mm-hmm. They don't say when the wilderness chose you. Right. Right.

Because that's just how they've rewritten the story. You fall in one ice hole and all of a sudden the wilderness has chosen you. So this is a different sort of thing. And it's reflective of we're in the reign of Nat, right? This is Nat's tribe. It's not Lottie's tribe. And we're going to have a trial. And we are going to...

wear robes and the lawyers are going to wear like toga sort of things and we have like we have found the time to fashion a gavel yeah and a sound block which is what I found I had to google what is the thing that's underneath the gavel called it's called the sound block you're learning so much about the courtroom I really am courtroom artist you're getting ready for daredevil I am I am call me the airplane seats

Nat as judge sitting in a seat from their crashed plane. Ty wearing an airplane seatbelt as a belt on her lawyer's sash thing. Love a lawyerly sash. So this attempt, to your point, this attempt to play act the conventions of our society back home. Lottie seems largely...

displeased she's not arguing against it she's very wisely sort of taking taking a back seat to what other people are deciding and she's sort of like watching and waiting she's not arguing again she does bring up the pack of cards to swear on instead of the bible yeah so she's like i'm still the spiritual advisor yeah but she's not like we shouldn't do this we should she says we let the wilderness decide but she doesn't insist upon it yeah and um and she is also along with

Every other character who has nuance, so not you this week, Shauna, visibly moved by Ben's speech that he gives. And also compelled by the logic in the examination. I thought that Lottie, both with bringing the cards up for the swearing in, and of course what she says in tandem with that, leading to Nat cutting her off to say like, yeah, yeah, yeah, the truth and the whole truth. But...

even in the initial argument about whether, because Shauna just wants to kill Ben immediately. They get back to camp. She's like, you're not going to talk to this guy. He tried to burn us all alive. And...

When Nat makes the case that they're not going to just instantly kill him, that they need to seek the truth. And that moment of appealing to Lani. Why would they march him all, I guess maybe for ease of meat proximity? Was there a duck jail anywhere else? No, but like if Shauna just wants to kill him, why wouldn't she just knife him? Maybe she was still recovering from the gas, you know, needed a little bit of time to get the poison cave gas out of her system. And then she's like, I'm back on a murder quest.

But it's a fair question, probably because they built all those teepees for the set and wanted to just have, like, a cool area to sit in. They wanted to do a trial. Yeah. But, like, when Lottie said what you're alluding to, life and death has always been for it to decide...

you know, and the cards, like it felt like she was still looking in there saying, we're going to do this. Yeah. Two thirds majority structure process, a system, something civil. Yeah. Lottie is still looking for ways to imbue that process with the religious and the supernatural. And like, but again, she doesn't force it. But the reason that

What felt true to me is that, like, it's because she's not confident in her connection to that right now. So if she were more... I thought also confident in her standing in the group. And they're one and the same. Yeah. Right? Because the reason that everybody... And that was what was interesting, actually, about, like, not only Shauna...

swinging the votes at the end, but it's when Lottie puts her hand up that then Travis does. Then Akilah does. So Lottie still has her loyalty. She still has her group inside of this larger faction. The yearning tendrils of the mushroom crew. The yearning tendrils of the mushroom crew. Exactly. Just so. It's us prepping for Last of Us and it's Travis, Akilah, and Lottie out in the wilderness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, that like...

You know, and much of what they were discussing across the trial about could there be another explanation other than Ben burned the cabin down and tried to kill us all. Obviously, it's not an exact one-to-one comp, but it felt very similar to the way they have all talked about could there be another explanation other than it counts.

capital I, other than the wilderness, other than the darkness, other than this thing happening around us. And so even just the way that they are considering what is unfolding around them still felt tethered to the evolution that has unfolded inside of the supernatural thing. What it struck me as is like, we know what we're headed towards, which is like the absolute bedlam of Mari or someone else going into the pit and the like, the feral,

Right. Dilapidated around the fire. Consumed, like ravenously consuming the meat. Not on that meat. So we are still. Not on that man flesh. We have lost the cabin, but under the reign of Nat. Yes. We have built these beautiful structures. Too beautiful. We've got the animals in the pens. More and more. Um,

Um, we've got, you know, ritual. We've got, we're playing games. We've got holidays. Society. So Nat, yeah, Nat's like, we've built a society. We have rule. We have law and order. We're going to have a trial. Yeah. And, but this is the last, this is what I talked about when we, when we talked about the opening and we were talking about this sort of like idyllic commune, uh, sort of imagery that we saw at the beginning while Cat Stevens was playing your babe and like how we were watching that only, uh,

To know that it's going to... Fall apart. Fall all apart. Yeah. And this feels like, especially since this episode does so much to undermine Nat as a leader. For sure. This feels like the last... The factions have emerged again. Like, vestige of... Totally. An attempt to maintain civility and society and law and order inside of chaos. Yeah. And unity. And I think, like, that's an interesting thing for the show to continue to mine. Like...

The idea of society and structure hinging in full on consensus is impractical inherently and actually at odds with the idea of democracy. Democracy. Right. So...

The fact that every time there is conflict or tension, it leads to the decimation and decay of the thing they have very temporarily propped back up is interesting. And of course, like the on the Lord of the Flies front, the great constant like, you know, born back by the current like Gatsby element of.

being out there has just brought out something feral and base in them that you suppress when you go about your life in the world. And that was the other thing about the trial that I thought was fascinating as a structure and part of why I wish that the episode had been a little bit better. But this part of it I thought worked was like doing this allowed not everybody. We have a lot of very quiet observers who did a great job tearing up when they needed to.

It allowed certain key players, though, to rediscover a tether to something fundamental about their desire and their sense of identity. Ty has always wanted to be a lawyer, and she gets to be here. Misty wants to have a purpose inside of the group. Wants to have people turn to her and say, you're the one we need to do this thing. Like, they got to do that. And so that, like, allows you to hold on to a sense of self.

That then fades. Kind of. On the one hand, yes. And on the other hand, I think when you talk about sort of this idea of a primal thing that has always been inside you, I think one of the most interesting things that Yellow Jackets does, especially as it's – we talk about the way in which Yellow Jackets is stalking the legacy that is Lost. And Lost is doing a lot of great work exploring what it means to be all kinds of humans. What Yellow Jackets is preoccupied with is what it means to be a teenage girl and Travis. And Ben. And Ben.

So it's about the desires and the literal and figurative appetites of young women and what they are told that they need to suppress and smooth over and gloss up in order to get along and have power in society. It's why a Jackie has power back home and a Jackie does not have power out in the wilderness. And it's why Shauna interacting with her hallucination of Snacky when stuck in the freezer is

in theory, such a rich text because what is the thing that Jackie says to her? Did you come home and become the person you always wanted to be? I thought the most interesting thing she said was, I'm the most interesting thing about you. That felt so... It so beautifully continued, the final fight. Are you quoting Beaches and me? Just like that horrible rearing of that thing you suppress that you don't want to say to somebody you have a proximity to or a relationship to. And it's like,

The judgment. I miss their relationship. I'm glad the show is still finding ways to bring that to the surface because it actually isn't as interesting to watch young Shauna interact with other people. That's also part of what's happening. I really agree. It's too bad. And I think that, like, I mean, with love and respect to Melissa, it's just not even remotely as interesting. I know, Mel, you got some big frozen and then roasted shoes to fill. When I was re-watching the snacky...

Shauna with her frozen meat ram interaction, it sent me to rewatch the end of Fight Club because the fight between the Tylers, Durden, and this idea of like, I'm the most interesting thing about you. Why would you kill me? I'm what you want to be. Right.

was very much top of mind for me here. I love that. Ella Purnell, Brad Pitt, same, same. Two icons. Icons both. Icons both. Same, same. On the like, Akilah Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. dream front. Yeah. Akilah, who was like, resistant, was like, I don't want it, like resistant to Lottie trying to draft her. Literally said like, I didn't want to

I didn't want to come over here. You have one cave gas dream and then all of a sudden you're your team mushroom. But yeah,

Akilah and Van and Shauna walking. Here's my question to you. Do you think we got confirmation of the shared dream? Let me explain. Shauna and Akilah and Van are walking back and they're looking at each other sort of uneasily. And Shauna's like, it doesn't have to mean anything. She's out of hand on her crazy dreams. Yeah, I've had way crazier dreams, like whatever. I dreamed my baby was a roast chicken. This was nothing. Akilah, when she's talking to Lottie, she says she had a dream that feels different from the dream Shauna and Van had.

And Lottie says that it's a vision and they should go back and regas themselves with the fuck Lottie. But like, I mean, classic Lottie, to be honest with you, but I don't think, you know, Akil refers to it as the dream and wonders if it's a message, but I don't.

Then later says her dream was different. So I don't know that we have confirmation that all the girls walked out of that cave and said, did you dream of Jackie in the classroom? Did you see the exact same thing? Did you get a slap bracelet around your neck? I think it's in this episode left intentionally opaque because obviously there are... Because then you still have the realistic plausible liability if we all just had a gas leak. Right. If you go through every single detail and it is...

It's harder to deny. Yeah, that something else is afoot. Yeah. I liked when Lottie replied to Akilah's description of like it was a memory, but it wasn't or like it really happened, but it didn't. And I don't know. It felt like it was. And Lottie cuts her off with the truth. This is how cults and fanatics who are seeking to acquire and amass followers are.

Do it. This is one of the ways to do it. Tell us more about your cult building tactics, Molly Rubin. I think some of what we do here is that, frankly. Frankly? The Ringer cult. I think it became clear in season two when we covered the Sunshine Honey crew that I have less cult knowledge. But...

You're confused. You're at sea. You don't understand what's happening to you. And someone tells you two things. One, you're special and have been chosen. And two, the thing that is happening to you is the true thing. The true thing about life existence. Like, it's a hard thing to resist the pull of that. Lottie then immediately being like, and give me the goop, drop your pin to that cave. To that good, good guess. Was...

On the one hand, let's keep much like she was doing with Travis, right? Keep taking the mushroom tea. Let's keep, we have this ember. Let's tend it until it is a roaring inferno, though, hopefully not one that burns down our, our new teepees. Uh,

And you can refine this connection to the wilderness. But what really felt true to me, speaking of the truth, is that Lottie is on her own quest of rekindling here. And she's like, I used to hear it and I don't anymore. This is what happened when she suggested that everybody make Nat the leader. She's like, I used to hear it and I don't anymore back in the end of last season. And she is seeking...

We saw her fear this in the modern timeline last season, like, let this just be enough. But here in the wilderness, she is seeking to rediscover the thing that she has lost, whether that's because she misses the power or because she misses her own sense of the truth, I think is open for debate. Because the truth, once again, allows you to abdicate responsibility for everything.

shauna later when she is talking about ben and she's saying he he shames us right um what we've done we are survivors what we've done to survive right yeah and then ben's like no no i admire you please don't kill me i loved when you guys ate people it was it was a really great i need to say it at the time pretty cool that you did that um

You know, if you feel like you have access to the divine truth of the universe, the divine truth of the universe is like. Nobody can tell you you're wrong. Eat your friends. Even Malaruba might eat an ear. Well. You never know. Yeah, she wants to commune with the wild again. She wants to regain that status and she wants to regain that sense of certainty and. Yeah, I think exactly as you said it. Allowance. Exactly. Allowance, forgiveness, justification. Will they find though on the theory corner front.

other than poison gas in the cave. If they go back and seek that out, because we still don't know. Was Ben just talking to like Phantom Paul? We thought so. But maybe there are other people in those caves. We kind of find out because, yeah, Mari in her testimony. Mari, we should note when she's called to stand. Oh, shit. She goes, but she doesn't say it like that. Oh, shit. No, she's like, oh, shit. That's what she says. Like a little. I read it out, Ben. We went and got it. I was like, oh, snap. Essentially, oh, snap. Oh, snap.

Oh, shit. She's killing it. She's great. She's our favorite. We love her. They never saw this coming. Not in a million years. The show should be called Mari Jackets. That'd be great. She's the best. And she points out that Ben was like talking to someone. And I'm like, we have to know if they are going to execute Ben next week? Question mark?

Maybe some torture for a couple weeks? We haven't gotten those mysterious hanging screaming shots. I don't really understand Travis's drawing.

And I've looked at it many times. Wait, but that was, wasn't that one of Javi's old drawings? I thought Travis was doing that while. So you think he took, because the burned parchment, it was on one of like the burned pieces of parchment. Oh, I thought it was like, okay, I'm sorry. I really did watch this episode several times. I thought it was on like tree bark.

And he was actively... That might be right. Yeah. Because he was actively, like, doing something during the trial. Yeah, so he's... Okay, so the two different possibilities... So I thought he was, like, a prescient... Yes, well, and that would be... That's true either way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, because Javi in season two, episode four...

Javi has all those drawings that Ben discovers. Yeah. Obviously, we talked a lot about the tree roots and... And they're bedecking Travis's hammock grotto. And the fact that they had that look to them, the, like, I spilled coffee on this to give it this effect. Yeah.

I thought meant that they were definitely Javi's drawings that Travis had rescued in the fire, but they got a little singed. Yeah. So then when I saw that at the end, I thought, oh, is that one of Javi's drawings? And had he or his friend somehow anticipated this? But Travis, having the drunk Travis experience or the mushroom tea experience, um,

We know that he heard the chitters and the distressing wails and cries and moans and roars and chitters before everyone else. So if this outcome came to him and he sketched it out,

That also seems right. But also, it could... That seems probably more likely what's happening. I guess I have to... And maybe he's like, I like Javi's drawing, so let me do some of my own. And I swear he was drawing, but, like, I need to go back and play back the tape. Or you can email us, hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com, if you're like, Joanna, duh, it's obviously Javi's drawing. But the...

No matter what, I kind of feel like that image could mean literally anything. Right, because there were the three bodies, which I assumed were the cave gas. Because they were down. And then a man on his back. Yeah, and I was like, that's Ben. So how is that the outcome of the trial? Because it was the outcome of him rescuing the three of them led to the trial. He revealed himself to the group. I have no idea. Or the three people could also be...

prosecution, defendant, judge. Yeah. Yep. That was an interesting moment when Nat was like called to be a witness and objected and they're like, you can't do that. And she's like, I'm the judge. Because Nat has always been the like, I don't want it person. That's all. She was also like looking bored in her seat at a certain point. Like, yeah. Was sort of like, that's, I couldn't really get a full read on that inside of this episode. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Let's point out that Shauna definitely lies on the stack of playing cards when she says she did not want to be the leader. Yes. Uh-huh.

But then she gives her whole he's not one of us speech. And when she's like, so what do you think she means when she says he's not one of us? And we're talking about tribalism inside of this show, which we think is interesting. Yeah. Yes. How do you think they're currently defining themselves as survivors, as cannibals, as wilderness acolytes, as women plus Travis, who has been effectively neutered? Like, what do you what do you think Shauna would say? Yeah.

Hmm. That's an interesting question. I think she is holding on to a couple things there. One, the judgment, the idea of being judged and to the idea of being abandoned by him.

And so the things that those two emotions and ideas connect to are a lot of the things you just said. We, as a true team, as a group, a team of soccer players, a group of survivors. Fine young cannibals. Exactly. Don't abandon each other. Don't give up. Misty was scared to help with the delivery too, but came back and helped. Yeah.

But also, we are people who are willing to do what is necessary to stay alive. I think Shauna, and this feels like a tether between the two timelines in a clear way, is unapologetic and consistently assured and never ashamed to do the thing that's necessary to make sure she survives and the people she loves survives. And she felt that Ben...

Threatened that. Threatened that and judged it and believed it was not appropriate or right. And to Shauna, it's the only right thing. It's the only goal. Make it forward one more day. And so that is a distinction on a philosophical, fundamental level that makes me think they can never align. And I think she sees it that way, too. I just think it's really interesting because I don't feel like I have a strong sense of who Shauna feels like is under her umbrella of protection. Mm-hmm.

Because I feel like that moves around. Do you know? Yeah. Yep.

Yeah, she's certainly willing to kill people. Like in the modern storyline, I would say, of course, Jeff and Callie are like under the Shauna protection. But like at a certain time, I would say Nat was, you know, but is she? I mean, but Ty, you know, Ty maybe, but then snuggled in Callie's bed talking about their lives. Yeah. Back in the day. Feels like a long time ago. It does feel like a long time ago. Misty.

Goes full Perry Mason, and I love that for her, and tries to lay the blame on anyone but Ben. This is a great strategy. Also, when I watched a lot of Perry Mason growing up with my mom in the mornings, which I used to do before school, I thought this is how it works in court. It doesn't. Your job as a lawyer is not to...

find out who actually done it. Right. But that's what Perry Mason would do every week. Right. Your job is just to make an argument to convince the jury of something or the other, but not like point to the back of the courtroom and someone stands up and he's like, yeah, blah, blah. Well, I thought that was effective that Misty's goal was not necessarily to actually very amusingly continues to be like Shauna did it. But yeah, she's just like reasonable doubt. It could have been anyone. And so if it could have been anyone, we can't say for sure it was Ben. Shauna, Nat, Ty, sure.

New Jen catches a stray there. Incredible moment when she's like, what the fuck? Melissa catches a stray. Oh, yeah. Crystal. Fuck you, Misty. Listen.

This is like the great deception and lie of Misty's life. I mean, I guess it's actually not. It's on a pretty crowded list along with I Destroyed the Black Box. It's like a six out of ten, honestly. But her commitment to continuing to mention Crystal whenever she can is high comedy to me. I love it. We also like, we don't know who started the fire. No. No. What's your leading theory? I am convinced it was not Ben now. Oh, I am so sure it was not Ben. I think it's Darktie.

Yeah, that feels very likely. Sleeper tie. What do we want to call it? Yeah, the other one. I think that seems very reasonable. I was rewatching that sequence to try to see who was visible where and when, but it's tough because Shauna's upstairs in the attic alone journaling, and that's when we get the first glimpse of the fire, and then it takes her a couple minutes to get down to where everyone else is, and they're waking up. But are they? Yeah.

Dark tie feels like a great call. You know, this isn't just a higher stakes version of like who shit in the bucket that you're only supposed to piss in. And we also thought that we also thought that I did like I'm not saying I believe this, but I thought the most compelling alternate case Misty presented was Lottie. Right. She's like, people aren't believing. So you start a fire. So she.

She was talking about something else in history. Resort to something drastic to show us who the real hero is, the real leader. Yeah, she was talking about like setting fires to like, in history, setting fires to the houses of non-believers. That's one thing. But also sort of mixed in here was the concept of the Reichstag fires, which were the fires that were started in the rise of Nazism to implicate

Like, the Nazis start these fires... The Nazi Party starts these fires to implicate their opposition to...

paint them as terrorists to gather support around them. So the idea, you know, hobbitsanddragons.gmail.com, if I fucked up that history, but like the idea being you, and it's still something that our modern politicians are using, you just sort of like, you make your enemy so scary in order to cast yourself as the great protector. You know, so Lottie in that case, if she started the fire,

She could introduce herself as the great protector. I thought that was really interesting as well, but I still think it's sleeper tie. And then, yeah, Steven Krueger, who plays Ben, I don't think, and we said this last season, we say it every season, we don't think Ben's going to make it out of the season. I don't want to be without him. Feels like this is curtains for Ben. He's been great. Yeah. So great this season, and this is really it. When he was like, we're talking about

You didn't listen to me anymore. Yeah. You didn't need me anymore. So Ben is this like last hobbled vestige of the patriarchy, right? I am the male adult and you didn't listen to me anymore and you didn't need me anymore. Right. And

that was intolerable to me. Right. You know? Yeah. But also like I, I believed him. I'm not sure I believed him when he was like, I admire you guys for the cannibalism, but I believed him as his like, I didn't want to be a teacher. Yeah. Oh yeah, for sure. And,

And then I loved you all and I protected you all and I cared about you. Like, I think that's all true. Yeah. I really loved that. I thought it was great. He obviously is like revealing a little bit about himself in this stretch as well, talking about his family and what he, what was absent in his life growing up and like,

One of the moments I really loved... So torn ACL, is that... Yeah. Yeah. Lost that bright soccer feature when the ligament went boom. The moment where he's like, if I had wanted to hurt you here all the other times I could have done it, and those ways were not...

to burning them alive in the wilderness. They were back home, right? You know, like, I could have ratted you out for getting drunk. I could have ratted you out because I found you guys hooking up. Like, I... First of all, what I loved about that is, like, the reminders. They're in this...

supremely uncommon situation and to remind each other of the history, which of course Misty is doing too just in her opening. And so much of what Misty is doing with Ben from the bird pen moment all the way through to the trial is like everything she's saying about them collectively, she's obviously just talking about herself and her feelings. I'm going to deal with birds, Misty. Okay, that's great stuff. Wonderful. Boys? We talking about boys? Boys.

I'm in a jail with birds, Misty. That was really great. And like, I like those reminders of the history that they've shared. But the other thing I really liked about that was that it was the other side of, you know, we talked about this a lot in season two. When in the Paul Ben visions did we move firmly into alternate history from memory into alternate history? Into the choice I didn't make in the life I could have lived if I had. Yeah.

But one of the scenes that felt still like true and like Ben was actually remembering something that had transpired was when Paul was like, why are you going with them? You hate them. You don't like them. Yeah. And we could feel that Ben was pulled toward them and this thing that they had accomplished together because it was. You're amazing. Team.

Yeah. And like that, then to find yourself on the outside of that family. Yeah, exactly. You know, to then feel like,

In this situation, literally a life and death situation, you have no idea if you're going to be found, if you're going to be rescued. Is this forever? My leg got chopped off, as he reminds them. To feel, whether it's because they're ready to eat each other and you're not, or any number of other reasons, that you were on the outside of that. That team you had together gave you a sense of belonging and a thing you felt like you had lacked earlier in your life.

And then you, it was gone. It had been, you survived and you were not a part of it with them would be so, of course that would be like. Do you think this happens if Ben still has both of his legs? Yeah.

This being all of it? Just him being on the... Do you think Ben would have been able to keep a firmer grip on his authority? No. Initially, yes. He would have been more in charge. He's the one instead of... He doesn't need to lean against a tree trunk as Misty holds his hand and sings to him so he can take a shit. Right. He doesn't need to have his bandages changed. He's not in such a vulnerable situation that Misty is literally poisoning him as she's feeding him, keeping him ensnared. Yeah.

misery loves company baby exactly yes but no matter what he hits that moment because he's an adult and they're young and that's that would always have been a divide with this group i think it's one of the really like the real genius decisions in the in the first two episodes to kill the coach to kill travis and javi's dad coach martinez and to kill the flight attendants oh yeah like for ben to be the

only one who was young enough yeah young but still like you buy it when he and Nat are like hanging out at Doomcoming and bonding and talking like you could see that that authentic connection would be there and would be real and would be attainable um

but it's not the same. It's not the same. So I really liked all of that. I loved the emotion. I loved when the way that he said like that he was ashamed and embarrassed by, by what he had done. Like that was just really moving and great and a great performance. And I think really well written. And I liked everyone sniffling at that. Did we mention, did we mention that Nat walked out with the, in the antler queen?

We didn't. We should mention that. So Nat came out wearing the... There's also a few cool shots of like

him framed in the prongs of like, there are shots where the camera's behind, because she takes it off pretty quickly and puts it to the side. But there's shots like through the antlers into the jury box and stuff like that. Yeah, that was fun payoff. Obviously, Nat's in the position of leadership already, but that was fun payoff on those like- On the airplane sort of stuff. Yeah, the glimpses we got in season two. I liked that. And, you know, on this divide between Ben and the group front, I was also struck by

Whether in what Shauna was saying or when Ty is building the case of Ben's guilt, just how firmly this is maybe sounds like a contradictory point to what you were saying earlier about the order. But I don't think it is. It's like when they ate Jackie. Yeah.

Ty woke up the next morning, said she hadn't done it, and threw up when they were like, Vance, like, you ate her face. They couldn't talk about it. There were these great little moments over the next couple episodes where in hushed private huddles, one of them would say to the other, like, well, I hope that person's okay, but, like, if they died, it wouldn't be so bad because then we can eat them. And, like, it was pretty good, right? Mm-hmm.

They are just saying with their chests, as our old ringer colleague and beloved pal Shea Serrano used to say, say it with your chest. Like, we ate them. Like, there's no... Deniability. There's no shame at all in that anymore. They're like, we did these things. And so even though they are in an era of trying to reestablish the structure... Do you think Shauna just wants to kill Ben so she can eat him? I think it's entirely possible. Somebody who let her down can't have it. Somebody who she could eat.

Checking all the boxes for Shauna. The full package. I don't have much I want to say before I want to get to this Lottie situation because I kind of feel like we've covered Van and Ty and all that sort of stuff like that. Oh, you want to talk about the vote? No, we talked about the vote. I think we covered that all, right? Any other... No, but I want to... I think we've kind of covered the old folks home stuff and I think we've covered... I think the Van and Ty plot in this episode is pretty...

Not great to me. I have one question. So on the Shauna Jeff Misty front, before we move on from that entirely. Well, no, I wanted to mention that the most important thing to me, which is that Misty misses Walter and hopes he gets in touch with her. How are you feeling about this? Great. He texted her. He did, but before he texted her, she was looking for a secret... She took Svetlana's blank piece of paper, which was intended to communicate with the comptroller. And...

Some crucial puzzle pieces. That's just actually fucked up and cruel. It's classic Misty, honestly. I was. We were watching it on a screener, but I was like, what is on the puzzle? Is that a clue? Did Walter leave this puzzle with Svetlana as some sort of message for Misty? But then Svetlana's like, I've been working on it for a month. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Walter was doing his puzzle in his fancy lair back in Season 2. While listening to musicals and drinking milk? I didn't link that part. Okay. I did not. A goblet of milk is awful.

always going to be a no for me. It was important to me that Misty, before Walter reached out to her, Misty was looking for messages from him. Yeah. In the ways he used to leave them. It matters to me. Gotta get out that black light, find what he scrawled to, and then she's like so bummed that there's nothing on the paper. Yeah. I loved that. When will Walter be back next week? He better be. Yeah. I hope so. We have some fun Walter theorizing to do when we talk about Lottie's corpse in a minute. Um,

On the brakes front, this whole thing that leads to the pursuit of the karma points, the karma deficit. Here's the question. This is a classic Yellow Jackets question. The guy's like, nobody cut your brakes. What the hell are you talking about? Brake booster. Oh, so who fucked with that? Nobody. They just failed. Like, this is just normal car stuff. Is it? I believe that the brakes might have just failed. And we both agree we don't think Misty had anything to do with it. But someone definitely slammed that door shut of that freezer.

Right. I rewatched that several times. The freezer, the brakes. The thing I keep thinking about is like Shauna did pull the card.

This is where the Nat-Javi-It-Chose thing is interesting as a comp because Shauna pulled the card in the season two finale and then Nat died. Does that mean It chose Nat and so Shauna's off the hook? Or is Shauna still on the clock here in a way? That was the other thing that was interesting in this episode, the comp. And like Jackie Snacky makes this text like, oh, like you're going to just, oh, this would be fitting if you froze to death like me. But...

Shauna finding herself in this perilous circumstance with the cold when like her tie to death by freezing is so core. We talked about last episode, the van having the dreams of fire when she nearly burned alive on the plane. And then of course the cabin, et cetera, like those parallels keep emerging. But yeah, like-

We do know that somebody is actually trying to get in touch with Shauna. Leaving the envelope and the tape, staring at her in the bar, leaving the phone. But leaving messages is so different from slamming the door shut on a freezer. So is it coincidence? Just like any of these other things where it could be coincidence or could be another explanation. Is it this person in pursuit of her or Walter or somebody else?

Is the answer, or whether it's coincidence or something else, that it doesn't necessarily matter as much as what Shauna ends up thinking. Because that feels very similar to me to Adam in season one, where like he didn't do it.

Yeah. But she thought he did. And she was wrong. And she was wrong and she killed him. And she is... So it's like, what is Shauna going to do? By the way, often wrong. Often wrong and driven to act with a sense of certainty. The way that she is just sticking to blaming Misty was actually bizarrely personally aggravating to me. I found that very weird too. It was so weird and just like, once again, seemed out of character. Okay, so all of this happens...

We've got a few little details to talk about in terms of like, let's say one might say that Snacky, when she appears to Shauna, is goading her into action. You're just going to take this lying down. You're not going to do anything. Someone's coming after you. You're not going to do anything. Right. One might say in the Van and Ty scene,

I think, frankly, dumb storyline when they're, like, stalking a guy with the card. Van says, fuck the wilderness. Can't we just enjoy the time we have left? So it seems like Van doesn't seem convinced her cancer's gone. We get the shaking hand later. But in terms... And then we know that Ty was trying to get in touch with Lottie. Mm-hmm.

So let's just do Lottie. This is what I want to do. Lottie withdraws a significant amount of money, possibly from a bank, or at least does some major transaction with the bank. Yeah. Got a personal escort and a personal thank you. Receipt of something. Had a slip of paper. The thing that was on my mind with the trip to the bank, this will connect when we get to theorizing to the possibility of whether Lottie is responsible for what happened to Lottie. Right. Exactly.

When everything happened with Lottie and Travis, like we know money was moved, right? A bank account was involved. And there was also, to the extent that we know still all the details and can believe what Lottie's account was because we glimpsed the truth that Nat was not privy to. Part of that was like the idea that you can gain, you can commune with the darkness. You can commune with it, the wilderness, if you are an inch from death. Yeah.

Right. And so is Lottie seeking the same thing that we have been told Travis was now that she has been swept back up in this again? And was the bank some sort of like readying for that scenario in some way? Though she is practicing elsewhere an apology in the mirror, like she has an appeal to make to someone. Money feels like immense. And so maybe the money is going to someone else. Okay, so these are the two possibilities I see in terms of the money.

I just want to finish running down this Lottie thing. Right. So she withdraws the money from the bank. Yep. Ty calls Lottie, remarks on the construction noises. This feels significant, but I couldn't tell you why. She's on Bedford Street. The camera lingers on the construction and Bedford Street very significantly. So, like, is that going to matter going forward? Lottie is practicing the I know I hurt you over and over again in the mirror in advance of meeting whomst.

We don't know. Yeah. She's somewhere fancy, but the walls are still giving cabinet to me the dark wood of the walls. And then she's dead in a stairwell that closely resembles the one from her dream with candles all around her. Or is she dead? She looked pretty dead. So this is the question. Yeah. Here's my bat shit theory. Tell me. Hold all theories loosely. Yes.

Is there a world in which Lottie arranges, fakes her own death somehow? Does she look dead? I mean, yes, there's a pool of goo, but all we have to go on is a photograph. But we like pan out of the photo and get the caution tape and hear people. But we don't see anyone. There's no like siren. There's no like... I thought we heard police talking. I'm not saying I'm like married to this. I'm just sort of like... So she's staging it.

To incite what? I don't know. To prove something. Yeah. To Shauna. Yeah. To entice something out of Callie. To X. I just would not put it past a rich, messy bitch like Lottie. Yeah.

Yeah. To not stage her own death. I'm just saying, I'm going to hold this very loosely. I just want it as a possibility that this is fake. I like it. I would be happy, frankly, if that ended up being the case because I... Because we get the sound of the photographs and stuff like that, but I'm like, what if Lottie just staged this whole fucking thing? Sure. It's entirely possible. Well, I mean, Lottie did say when they were preparing to...

draw the card again and engage in the hunt in season two. And initially her suggestion before that was like, here, someone take the roulette poison to booze. She was like, I'll do it. She was ready to die, right? So engaging with that

either literally or just the fact that people would believe that to be true is interesting. I think the reason it feels to me like she is, and I don't really want adult Lottie to be out of the show. I think like I was mixed in season two but have really enjoyed her so far in season three. So I'm sort of like, wait, we lost adult Nat. And now another one. Something cool is happening here with adult Lottie in season two. Is she already gone? I don't, I'm a little worried about how many characters we're like, we know a set.

We still have a lot of room to play, but it does. It's like, and then there were four. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I love if she were still around, but the fact that the physical surrounding the stair, that concrete, dark, wet stairwell. Do you still think it's the school? Not after seeing the other locations in this episode. Um,

Well, I'll come back to the New York, New Jersey thing and something else about the physical location in a second that I have questions about. But no, because I don't get the sense that she was in a school when she was preparing in the mirror. My assumption is she died in that location, but maybe not. Maybe she went elsewhere. But when Laura Lee baptizes her in season one, episode six...

And Lottie sees she's in that hallway. It's wet. It's dark. She sees, you know, we talk about like the stag a lot as imagery. It's like, you know, ends up literally being like the moose that they see and can't get right and following and then gets to the stairwell and the the candles. And then when she wakes, she kind of has that like look up through the water at Laura Lee with the plume of fire behind her foretelling the exploding the bumblebee. Mm hmm.

So, like, inside of the language and universe of the show where, and we'll say this every pod we ever do about Yellow Jackets until they definitively declare it, which maybe they never will, the question of if a vision is real or not, if a thing is actually supernatural or not, is part of the point that what we and the characters like are debating that. But, like, many times Lottie's visions have then been borne out by reality. So, like, Lottie long ago seeing her death...

it feels to me like something the show would do. Totally. Absolutely. I really agree. I just, there's something in me that feels like the season is taking a, and I don't know, this is always the plan, is taking a pivot towards there's a,

explanation for it reasonable explanation for everything yeah for sure for sure and I mean honestly like that still works though because Lottie like being like I saw this place so I'm going there or I set up a fucking club there I found this stairwell or I knew it and that's where how long has those candles been there like something else has been going on there yeah and we don't know maybe that's like her rich family's like club or something and that's the basement of it like that's entirely possible it could have been a location she knew in the past and she has like an altar there or something like that yeah and now has like made into her like uh

cult HQ light after losing Sunshine Honey or something like that. So on that front, the New York, New Jersey thing, the construction in the Bedford, seeing the bank into the construction into the Bedford and the noise in general, I read that. I like the idea that maybe there's something more actually particular, specific at play. I read it as just like they wanted it to be unambiguous that she was in New York City, not New Jersey. That was kind of how it played to me.

And then because then when there's no construction in New Jersey. No, but just like seeing Bedford. Bedford for sure. It's just had that kind of like this is a New York street. She's in the city. Quickly make it apparent. Not that there's no construction. I mean, just like, yeah, she's in the city, not the suburbs. I was confused by this because I wish instead it had been a newsy in the background being like, welcome to the Big Apple. Thank you for saying that. This gets me to my. I'm really glad that's what you said, because this is what confused me about it. Yeah.

Not to imply that there are not sidewalks, tables and newsstands and bags of trash in New Jersey. There certainly are. But when Ty and Van were sitting at their table deciding whether to go get the deck of cards and then leave it, I was like, oh, they're in New York City, too. But they weren't because Ty goes out of her way to mention the path, which is a train from Jersey to New York to get to Central Park.

So then I was like, huh. And the thing about that that was particularly confusing for... I was excited to make a case. Let me see if I can even remember what I thought here. The...

First of all, it is so fucked up and hideous that Van and Ty, even though Van builds to the point in the episode of like, I don't want to do this. They're like, let's just go kill a person. Like the waiter, it happened by accident. They saw it as a sign. No, but it's also stupid. Sorry. It's so fast. Yes. It doesn't feel...

having a very hard time with Ty you know we leave her in season one having cut off the head of her own dog and made a sacrificial shrine in her basement biscuit we remember you always sweet biscuit still wondering how Steve is doing oh also on the on the two years old missing cat poster I was like looking for clues and I'm like Steve and Daisy have we met a Steve and Daisy and I was like ah Steve made me think of Steve the dog once again I doubt the cat's parent was Steve the dog that's not what's happening

Okay, sorry. You were saying? That was a fucked up thing that Shauna did. We didn't talk about that. Being like, I will trick this... And Jeff said it. He's like, so you're gonna... She's like, can we not give notes on my karma? Trick this family into thinking it's their cat? Well, again, that was like a torturous plot twist.

To make it for a reason why Shauna would have been in New York. Right. So that she's a suspect. So she's potentially at the scene of the crime. Van and Ty separate for no reason so that they can be suspects. Yes. Yes. I agree. Walter is a suspect. For sure. And a very strong one because him, Walter wanting to...

incite something that leads to Misty then recommuting with him feels very Walter-y. Okay, so the card. They put down the card. It sticks to a woman's shoe. She peels it off. A horrifying moment where a small child is like, oh, this is all very awful. This guy who comes and gets it.

To me, it felt like he clocked it. Like he was like, it wasn't, I mean, obviously he looks at it and then goes and picks it up. But like there was like, did he, is he connected to Lottie in some way? No. Like to the like idea of the Red Queen. Okay, sorry. Maybe that's just not my read on it at all. So here's why, and I'm not saying it's mine either, but here's inside the episode what like, okay, so this guy picks it up. They follow him. They can film these things anywhere they want.

But Ty and Van followed that guy into a wood paneled building that was very similar visually to the place Lottie was in when she was talking into the mirror. Like the walls are just that like cherry wood paneling. And I was like, before again it became clear like they were not in the same state. So then I was like, wait, did Lottie go back to New Jersey? Yeah.

Which doesn't make sense with everyone ending up in New York. I think that's just a stranger that they followed. And then I was like, well, did the card get to Lottie in some way through that guy? None of which I'm particularly compelled by, to be clear. Okay. But...

He did take the card and then someone ended up dead at the end of the episode, which is a pattern inside of the show. Somebody draws the card and then someone else dies. That has happened routinely. So it's like, we know a lot he's apologizing to people, to some mystery people. That guy, it's like he's going home with dry cleaning, with a girl's dress in it. He's going to like a family. Yeah.

Like, is that person in Lottie's life in some way? Is there any way those things connect? Or was it just there to show us that Van and Ty and then suddenly not Van are ready to kill innocent people so that they can enjoy a little more time together? Who knows? We love all theories. We hold them loosely. We hold them dearly. Um...

Here are the only people that I think are not on my list of suspects because Callie's on my list because also this is at the bottom of the stairwell. So it could be a crystal moment where this is just like an accidental push down a stairwell, like not an intentional murder or just a confrontation or whatever. Yep. So Walter, top of the list. Lottie herself on my list. Ty, Van, Shawna, Callie. Yeah. Melissa, question mark. For sure. Or whoever that is. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

And not Jeff and not Misty. No. Jeff is too focused right now on good karma to be casually killing people in candlelit stairwells. Mel or whomever has been haunting Shauna's steps is, I like that. Walter seems very probable to me. And again, the idea of Lottie either intentionally or accidentally doing something that led to this. Or did the wilderness disclaimer, you know?

Tune in two weeks from now to find out. Needle drop before we go? Oh, it had to be Ace of Base. No question. It's the cranberries for me. Thank you to Steve Allman. Yes. John Richter. Arjuna Rangapal. Jomi Adeneron. Mallory Rubin. Joanna Robinson.

My favorite soft pretzel enthusiast. Those little pearls aren't going to put in themselves, Joe. That's a thing I learned this episode. Absolutely disgusting. Thanks for leaving me with thoughts of loathed tapioca. We'll see you in two weeks from War Yellow Jackets and one week for Daredevil. Bye.