The Most Essential 'Game of Thrones' Moments to Prep For 'House of the Dragon'
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Hello, my name is Dave Gonzalez, and I haven't read any of the books in George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire. I'm Joyna Robinson. I've read every book in George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire. And I'm Neil Miller, and I have also read all of those books. We are headed back to Westeros to cover the Game of Thrones spinoff series, House of the Dragon. We'll be answering your questions, so send us a raven at trialbycontent at gmail.com. Take some bread and salt and join us Thursdays on the Trial by Content feed, and don't worry, you're safe. The Reigns of Castamere hasn't even been written yet.

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It's what Jamie and I would say to each other in our moments of doubt. It's what I told Ned Stark when he was stupid enough to confront me. Half the Targaryens went mad, didn't they? What's the saying? Every time a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin. Greetings and welcome into the Ringerverse. Here on the Ringer Podcast Network, I'm Mallory Rubin and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only back to Westeros,

But to join us on the Ringers Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. Joining me today, now that she's heard the sound of thundering hooves, it's my house of our ghost, Joanna Robinson. Mallory.

Oh, boy. At the turning of the tide. Oh, wait, that's the wrong franchise. You only have to wait a few more days for that one. We're almost there. We're here to talk about a bunch of blondes, a bunch of pissed off blondes, are we not? Yeah. I love a silver haired, purple eyed, would be ruler. Yeah.

It's House Squared, Joe. House of R and House of the Dragon. It's time. And it's going to be for the foreseeable future, which, of course, brings us to the programming reminders. And we have a lot of them today. We have some programming announcements, some programming reminders, just some programming stuff. Because House of the Dragon, ever heard of it, premieres this Sunday, August 21st on HBO. And we have...

A lot of pods coming for you on the Ringer Podcast Network. Not even the Dragon Pit will be able to contain this volume of podcasts. On Sunday nights, beginning this Sunday and continuing every Sunday all season long, Joanna and I will be joining forces with Christopher Ryan, first of his name, for Talk the Thrones. The dragon has three heads.

And so does Talk the Thrones, which will be right here on Ringerverse for you this season. Jo, you hyped for Talk the Thrones? I am. I can't even tell you how excited I am because as a fan of Talk the Thrones, the fact that I get to be on Talk the Thrones is a huge deal to me. As you know, I adore both you and Chris, and I can't think of two better people to break down an episode on a weekly basis with. And Sunday nights...

I mean, you and I have a lot of strong memories about Sunday nights spent in the trenches. So I'm excited to get back in the Sunday night game. Yeah. Boy, I cannot wait to climb into the Iron Throne with you and Chris and just sit there together and podcast and hopefully not have too many blades slice us open.

There was a few times, I remember, just like a few times on a Sunday night or after where like one of us would message the other and be like, how did you do that? Like, you know, you going live or me trying to write like nine articles simultaneously. And it was just like a lot of...

stress and fun. And now we get to do it together. And that's really fun for me. It's unbelievable. I really just can't believe it. It doesn't seem real, but it is. That was one of my favorite Sunday night traditions always was seeing whether you had written seven articles before we had finished Stock the Thrones than you usually had. Astounding stuff.

Chris and Andy will, of course, also be breaking down every episode of House of the Dragon for you on the watch at the top of the week. And then on Tuesdays, Joe and I will be right here on the Ringiverse with our House of Art deep dive on the most recent House of the Dragon episode. And you know what to expect from the House of Art deep dive. I mean, in addition to discussing the plot and the themes and the character arcs and the orgies.

We will be diving further into the lore in this rich and sprawling canon. I am so hyped for the deep dives. If you're wondering, will we be with you at the end of the week in our usual spot? Yes, we will for Rings of Power, but find us on Tuesdays for the House of the Dragon deep dives.

Not all. Jo, what will you be doing on Thursdays? Oh, my God. I'm so excited. On Thursdays, I will be teaming up with my pals Dave Gonzalez and Neil Miller, who used to co-host a podcast called Storm of Spoilers. Ever heard of it with me? We are the current host of Trial by Content. And every week, we are going to be, for the run of House of the Dragon, we're going to be doing special House of the Dragon episodes. We're going to be doing a lot of

where we are going to be taking emails from you. So you can email us, trialbycontent at gmail.com. Send us a raven if you would. All that sort of stuff. And sort of diving into, again, like maybe late in the week questions, maybe some forward-looking questions. It's going to be a little different from the Mallory and Joanna deep dive. So that is what Trial by Content is up to on Thursdays.

And that's not the only email, though, that people can reach us at, right, Valerie Rubin? It's not. You've created a new email, Joanna, and you're proud of it and you should be. I'm proud of it. Yeah. You can find us for the run of House of the Dragon, Hot D itself, and Rings of Power. Oh, no.

D is just the best. Absolutely the best. George, never stop writing it. Hot D. Never. Hot D was so good before George R. R. Martin wrote it into canon on his blog, and now it's just like, well, it's canonical. So there you go. So Hot D and Rings of Power. You can reach us at hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com, which is my personal spin on if you're like, but there are no hobbits.

I know Hobbits and Rings. Like, I know. But Ian McShane once called Game of Thrones tits and dragons. So Hobbits and Dragons is the email. Hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com. This is where you're going to want to drop your like dissertation long take on Thrones and Lord of the Rings. I love reading those long, long ass emails from people, honestly. So, you know, Mallory and I will be looking at those and they'll be sort of informing what we choose to

to dive into on our weekly deep dive. So, yeah. I'm so excited. I love the Thrones community so much. They're so smart. They're so dialed in and they're so fucking funny. And I'm thrilled. I'm just, yeah. I know I've missed it. I can't wait. I can't believe it's time again. I will be sending you Ravens for trial by content, but they will all be about

because House of the Dragon, in addition to overlapping with Rings of Power, overlaps with football season. So I'll just be sending you and Neil and Dave a lot of thoughts on Mike McDonald's defense. I will let Neil answer those emails. Are you feeling pretty chill about all this content coming your way, Mallory? Everything's fine. Feeling fine? Everything's fine. One thing I can say is that I really enjoy coffee, so...

Yeah, a lot of caffeine. Elsewhere on the programming reminders front, you know, I was going to say, like, check out the House of the Dragon chat on the Midnight Boys on Wednesdays, but then Van announced on this week's Midnight Boys that he has no interest in House of the Dragon. So we'll see. Who knows? Check it every week to find out. Oh!

I mean, there's a lot of other stuff coming up. There's She-Hulk, which the Mint Edition are covering in a phenomenal way. There's Andor. There's a lot of stuff going on. I really enjoyed the Midnight Boys episode this week because, you know, they got to talk about a bunch of things that we maybe didn't have space for, like Prey or RRR, like all these great genre-y things. And so it was really nice to have that time to spend with them and catch up on those really, really fun, cool things that have happened that have been outside of these

maybe longer franchises that we've been covering. Yes. And as Joe said, Mint Edition already has a breakdown for you of the first episode of She-Hulk. She-Hulk, just a delightful show. Wonderful. Watch it. It's great. A joy. Yeah. All right. How can you follow all of that? You can follow it.

by following the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts, and by following the Ringer vs. Myriad social feeds. We are everywhere. Jomie will be with you on the socials all season long. But of course, before it's time to cover House of the Dragon, to actually break down the new episodes, dive into the new story...

we have to get ready for House of the Dragon. And how better to do that, we thought, than with a vintage House of R countdown. And so that is what we're doing today. We will be sharing with you the seven most essential Game of Thrones moments to revisit, to refresh on, to consider, to get you ready for the House of the Dragon premiere. Now,

These are not necessarily the best Game of Thrones moments or even our favorite Game of Thrones moments, though they may be in some cases. But they are the moments, the ideas, the quotes, the sequences that feel like the most helpful moments

based on what we're anticipating in this show to set the tone and orient us for this new journey that awaits. Everything from dragon lore to thematically apt pearls of wisdom from characters who are not Targaryens.

All of it is on the table today. And we each made our own list, Joe. So as usual, I don't know your list. You don't know mine. We will be counting down from seven to one. If we have overlap, we will discuss it at the higher spot. But I think one of the things that we both really felt prepping for this is we could have easily made this a list of 700 moments instead of seven. It was

It's downright impossible to narrow it down. And so this is not everything you need to know. This is not comprehensive. These are the things that we felt ourselves gravitating toward, right?

because it just feels like the thing to think about before this new show. Could be anything. It's like the old quote about porn. Like, you know it when you see it and you're like, oh yes, this is the moment. And like, I definitely had triple the amount of, like when I narrowed it down, I had like 21 moments and then I narrowed it down again to 14 and finally I landed on these seven. And I'm hoping that some of the ones that got cut from my list wind up on your list and vice versa. But if not,

They'll just live in my heart. Game of Thrones, it's a great show. Here's the thing. Anything that didn't make the list today will inevitably come up as we're talking about House of the Dragon because there are always going to be parallels of that context we want to draw on. We will be talking about it all over the coming weeks and months and years because this is just the beginning of the expanded Thrones IP era. Uh,

Some smuggles are coming as well, I would imagine. You know, winter is coming, smuggles are coming. So I suspect that we'll have more than seven each, really. But who can say for sure? I mean, I can say for sure because I've seen my own list. On the spoiler warning front, obviously today's podcast will feature plot details from the eight season television extravaganza Game of Thrones.

Ever heard of it? Ever heard of it? If anything happened in Game of Thrones, it is on the table today. Same goes for the in-progress literary classic, A Song of Ice and Fire. Yeah.

And of course, Fire and Blood, the history book on which House of the Dragon is based, is on the table. We will be calling upon Fire and Blood to set the stage. We're not going to tell you anything that's going to happen later in the story, but there may be a nugget or two of Targ lore that surfaces from Fire and Blood. I have one Fire and Blood nug. Yeah.

Okay, any other like caveats or anything at the top before we dive in? I mean, we talked about this. We mostly stuck to the show just because we know a lot of people like have watched the show. More people have watched the show than read the books. Though certainly some of the early scenes that we might have grabbed are definitely have...

almost word for word parallels in the book. So, um, that's all that. But like, there's not a ton of like, I don't have any like obscure book stuff, uh, in here. Um, and yeah, and no spoilers. Like we're not here to spoil anything. Um, it's just, yeah, as you said, setting the stage, I'm so excited. And it was really fun to do this. I know that you've been doing like a full rewatch. Are you, did you finish? I did. I finished on Tuesday night. Oh, so proud of you. I've been doing, uh,

No, I just want to start again. It was quite a journey to revisit. Boy. My Trial by Content co-host, Neil Miller, curated a 32 essential episode rewatch. And so I've embarked on that journey. But then I was also just spot rewatching scenes that I remembered. And just... Hey, I don't know if you know this, but...

But Game of Thrones was a pretty good show for a very long time. And by pretty good, I mean fucking phenomenal. Like those early seasons of Thrones. Amazing. Never any before or since anything like it. So, and you know, that like, as we've talked about, as people come off that final season or final two seasons, depending, you know, your mileage may vary of Thrones, like,

I just don't want to throw the prince who's promised out with the bathwater. There's so much good Thrones before things got a little less good. So we're here to celebrate a lot of that. I got a lot of early series stuff on my list here. Interesting. Okay. I love it. Do you not? I'm so hyped. I...

I do. Yeah, I do. I have... I'm just so excited. I have one PSA before we begin, which is while most of this will be like lines or moments or sequences to revisit, I have one to avoid. It stood out to me on my rewatch. Oh!

If you do not want any spoilers for the impending television program House of the Dragon, do not watch season three, episode four. And now his watch has ended where Joffrey, while talking to Margaery in the Sept of Baelor, spoils House of the Dragon in a remarkable way. Stay away from that scene. You've been warned.

It's the whole thing laid out for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, God. I was turning to Adam, watching him watch, like, is this registering for him? Does he know what he's hearing? But it didn't seem like it was. So funny. Yeah, you texted me about that. You're like, thanks for the spoilers, Jeff. Amazing. Will your journey never end? I know. God. Number seven.

Kick things off. Starting with me. What do you got? Okay. So as people may have noticed from the trailers for House of the Dragon, a lot of the conversation in terms of this is a story about succession. And a lot of the conversation will center around can Westeros accept a woman as their leader, right? Yeah.

So I have, in order to talk about this, I have a scene from season three, episode four. Now his watch has ended. It's Cersei talking to Tywin.

Okay, here we go. Cersei says,

And he goes, all right, contribute. She talks, you know. So a lot of Tywin moments stood out to me because Tywin has a lot of like really interesting things to say about power. And ultimately in this conversation, he says, I don't distrust you because you're a woman. I distrust you because you're not as smart as you think you are. Which might- All time burn. Might be true when it comes to Cersei. But what's also true-

so true is that like Tyrion is incredibly good at what he does as Hand of the King and all this other stuff that he does for a while. At least for the first for a while. And then he forgets to be smart and that happens you know. And Jaime has his own qualities but like Cersei was forever you know and she Cersei has a number of moments like this in the Battle of Blackwater when she's like holed up with the women or talking to Robert and you know and she's like you should wear the dress etc. Um

And I think, and obviously Sansa is a huge character when it comes to this. Arya, in terms of like what are girls allowed to do? This is, it's not a new theme for House of the Dragon. But I think Cersei is such an interesting case because I really do feel like she is very smart. She has a lot of great,

a great grip on power and all of that and legacy. And so I always wonder what would Cersei have been if her father, like Tywin, had treated her like an equal to her at least one brother because he also obviously treated Tyrion like... You know, and when Tyrion says...

to Jon Snow, all dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes, right? I think that idea could carry over because they're in House of the Dragon. There aren't a ton of those like cripples, bastards, broken things characters, which is like a fascination of George. But I think women are sort of take on that role in this story. So I thought this was like an interesting idea.

thing to remember Cersei's frustrations and what might have been. What do you think? Fantastic pick. I'm glad this is on the list. I have some Cersei stuff coming later. I have a Tywin scene with a woman where gender roles and the idea of power dynamics are at the fore, but it's a different scene. Do I have that one too? Maybe. Maybe.

But I was hoping that this or something like it might be on your list. I think this obviously is at the heart of the dynamics that are going to be at play in the Targaryen War of Succession. This is a phenomenal pick. Tywin. Boy. What a piece of work. Miss him. My number seven is...

Something that it wouldn't have been if I had just sketched like right away the first things that popped into my mind. It wouldn't have necessarily been one of the things that I jotted down. But it really stood out to me on my rewatch and I've been thinking about it a lot since. It is from the season seven finale, season seven, episode seven, The Dragon and the Wolf. Dany telling Jon about the dragon pit and her family's downfall. The summit of

To present the white zombie. The journey beyond the wall. And convince Cersei to cease hostilities so that everyone can focus on battling the Night King. Jonabise! Oh my god. And we have this moment.

Where Dany, tiny jawbone in her hand, is reflecting to Jon on the setting, on where they are, and the history that spawned this ruin in which this gathering is taking place. This is just before the 38-minute mark of the season seven finale. She says, This place was the beginning of the end for my family. A dragon is not a slave. They were terrifying. Extraordinary.

They filled people with wonder and awe, and we locked them in here. They wasted away. They grew small. And we grew small as well. We weren't extraordinary without them. We were just like everyone else. Now, this is definitely like a quieter moment and not one of Game of Thrones' most famous moments, but I think that it's really...

heading into House of the Dragon for a few different reasons. Like one, of course, there is the actual setting and the actual sequence of events that Danny is referencing here. The dragon pit, which we see in all its glory intact in the House of the Dragon trailers and all of the marketing for the show, you know, revealed by history, as we know from Game of Thrones, is

to be not just a symbol of power, but really like a symbol of House Targaryen's hubris and often their foolishness and the mistakes that they made and where those mistakes led them astray. And to hear this from Dany, who...

Viserion and Rhaegal in the catacombs of Meereen, where they were not able to grow for a long time, in Viserion's case, forever, until the Night King, which, you know, put a pin in that for now. And Rhaegal with Jon were able to form a bond with a rider, like, just deprived of the ability to fly and be free. And despite her knowing this history...

Despite knowing at this point when she's actually saying this to Jon in the season seven finale, what happened to Viserion beyond the wall. And despite her recognition of the lesson of history there, Dany cannot turn that awareness into real wisdom. And if anything, it becomes...

part of her justification for unleashing Drogon on King's Landing, which we will not relitigate all of the various variables at play right here. But I think there's like a lesson there too, that the Targaryens think that they're worthy and think that they're superior and think that they're like gods and often use their might and their connection to this Valyrian dragon rider magic to...

what becomes their own detriment or the detriment of so many others. And I just, I don't know. I thought that little clip could have been pulled out and used to just set the stage on its own for the show and the story that we're about to watch. That's perfect. I have something sort of similar to that later. I think we, I think you and I are going to like hit similar themes just through different lenses, which is really, which is really fun. I think that's really fun. No, I'm sorry. I was just thinking about a zombie in a box. What a bad idea that was. Okay.

Oh, now just carrying the box. It's like, let's hurry it up a little bit here, you know? Oh my God. Go faster. Like Gendry running at an inconceivable speed. I do love those still to this day when Qyburn picks up the hand. He's like, oh my God. My favorite creep, Qyburn. Your grace, may I keep this for my...

Personal research. I have my first smuggle right here at number seven because it feels like a good spot to mention, and you may have a whole separate entry on this. If so, let me know. Feel

old Targaryen coin flip omen harbinger stuff present, of course, in both the books and the show. In the books, there's this great Barristan Selmy quote to Dany in A Storm of Swords where he says, I am no maester to quote history at you, your grace. Swords have been my life, not books, but every child knows that the Targaryens have always danced too close to madness. Your father was not the first. King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin.

Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land. We get a version of that in the show in season two, episode seven, A Man Without Honor, an episode that came up multiple times when I was putting my list together, by the way. Do you remember we were talking about Thrones? I forget in what context. And I said season two was like one of my favorites. And you were like, season two, really? Like...

This is why there's so much in season two. As soon as you said, though, because of the dialogue and the lines, I was like, ah, yeah. I think that in terms of just overall season strength, season two is like right in the middle for me. But yeah, there are probably more quotes that...

you're going to pull from season two than any other season. It's at least going to be neck and neck in the tail of the tape running. And so we get the version of it here from Cersei in actually this kind of like tender scene with Tyrion where she says...

Around the 50-minute mark, sometimes I wonder what if this is the price for what we've done for our sins. And Tyrion asks, sins? And starts to say the Targaryens and Cersei cuts him off and says, what brother and sister for hundreds of years? I know that's what Jaime and I would say to each other in our moments of doubt. It's what I told Ned Stark when he was stupid enough to confront me. Iconic. Half the Targaryens went mad, didn't they? What's the saying? Every time a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin. So a memorable Tyrion-Cersei scene that serves as like a handy way to

smuggle some Lannister parallels here when thinking about Targaryens. Obviously, there's the incest, which will be a recurring topic for us as we cover House of the Dragon and the dangers of that incest. But

Also, just the complexity of the inter-family dynamics. Because I always love with Tyrion and Cersei that you can get a moment like this between the rage and the bitterness and the attempts to tear each other down where they could just be deeply vulnerable with each other for a moment and all of the different versions of that in between. So, coin flipping. Had to mention it. One of my favorite Tyrion lines that jumped out on my rewatch is the classic...

You know, him telling Cersei that her love for her children and her cheekbones are two of her finest qualities. That and your cheekbones. Such a good line. Great stuff. What's number six for you? Okay, this is good. This is good on the back of you talking about...

and what they could do. Mine is a season seven, episode two, Stormborn. And this is Daenerys' war council where she's speaking with Olenna and Yara. And Yara says, Yara points out, and this is important to think about when you're talking about a Targaryen civil war, which is the premise of this era that we're about to dive into.

You've got a lot of dragons and a lot of dragon riders, and so it seems like it should be simple math. Who has the most dragons?

Wouldn't you say they win automatically? So this is a conversation. Yara says, if you want the Iron Throne, take it. We have an army, a fleet, and three dragons. We should hit King's Landing now hard with everything we have. The city will fall within a day. Tyrion says, if we turn the dragons loose, tens of thousands will die in the firestorms. And then Daenerys says, that's enough. I'm not here to be the queen of the ashes. Spoiler alert for you, Daenerys.

Eventually you are. Right. That actually was like heartbreaking rewatching it. Yeah. But Queen of the like I'm going to be Queen of the Ashes and then Elena says that you know Elena.

Queen of my heart says. That's very nice to hear. Of course, I can't remember a queen who was better loved than my granddaughter. The common people loved her. The nobles loved her. What is left of her now? Ashes. Commoners. Nobles. They're all just children, really. They won't obey you unless they fear you. So there's so many conversations and so many philosophies about what power is, what it takes to be a good ruler. Taiwan has a lot of opinions on this subject. But there's a couple key things going on here. This idea, I mean...

Yara is right. If they had just attacked at the beginning of season seven, I mean, I think less of King's Landing would have burned, to be honest, in the end of things, and everything would have rolled out a bit differently. But because Tyrion's there and he doesn't want

Tyrion's feeling soft about his family, his sister, and also just doesn't want the common people of King's Landing to burn. But this is a key part of dragon warfare, is that dragon warfare means that the people on the ground often suffer the most, you know, because it's just carpet bombing is how you attack with dragon fire. And so the complexity of...

how you wage war with dragons, first of all, whether or not it's just a numbers game, second of all. And thirdly...

What do the common people, quote unquote, common people have to do with it, right? Olenna sees them as sheep to be, you know, governed and Tyrion sees them a bit differently. And how do the Targaryens, are they even thinking about the residents of King's Landing and beyond as they fight for the throne and who suffers the most in all of this? So. I love that. That's a great pick. Also just the setting, sitting at the painted table. It was beautiful. On Dragonstone. Yeah. Such a...

rich and deep connection to House Targaryen and the conquest and the history of that house. Everything with Olenna is just priceless. Pitch perfect. The best. I wonder if you're the worst person I've ever met. So good.

Oh, God. I will spoil for you that I have an item coming up later that's about some dragon battle stuff, but I did not have that specific exchange, which I think is a great one and a subtle one that taps into a lot of the variables I play. And I love that you mention the fact that in a civil war in House Targaryens, there are dragons on both sides because it makes me think of like...

A great line that I love in the other minister chapter of Half-Blood Prince where the muggle prime minister is like, you can do magic. It's like, well, the trouble is the other side can do magic too, right? So if there are dragons all around, then the carnage will be supreme. Coming to you at 9 p.m. Eastern on Sundays. What's also true, we should say, is that not every dragon is equal.

uh, not every dragon writer is equal, right? Absolutely. Um, so if you think about the long night and like Daenerys is up there and she's more experienced and John is just holding on for fucking dear life, uh, you know, there's some differences in, uh, skill levels there. Okay. Here's my number six. I feel like you might have this one. This was one where I was like, I won't be surprised if Joe has this. We'll see. It's from season one.

Episode nine. Little episode called Bailor. I've heard of it. And it is Maester Aemon.

telling Jon that love is the death of duty. I am so glad you have this because it's not on my list, but it was on my short, long list. So this is a great one. It's a real, real, real favorite of mine. Like truly one of my favorite scenes in Game of Thrones and one that I'm inclined to connect to basically anything elsewhere in the World of Ice and Fire canon, but also one that I think...

pretty routinely justifies those connections. And that's part of, that's part of the real, the reason that it has, I think has its claws so deep in me, the Raven claws that are picking up the raw meat that John is throwing to them. So at the 19 minute, 45 second mark, Maester Aemon says to, even by his usual brooding standards, a very broody Jon Snow. The pout is in full effect. Tell me,

Did you ever wonder why the men of the Night's Watch take no wives and father no children? And John, instead of turning and saying, well, you, with the wisdom of your years, are about to impart something meaningful to me, just says, no. No. No. No. No. So they will not love. Love is the death of duty. If the day should ever come when your lord father was forced to choose between honor on the one hand...

Now, this is an amazing, like, truly all-time pantheon scene.

It is beautifully performed, as all Maester Aemon's themes are. It is full of... Because the conversation continues for some time. It is full of a really rich Targaryen history and reveals post the Dance of the Dragon timeline period. But even so, we learn and Jon learns who Maester Aemon really is. But even if...

Aemon, we're not a Targaryen. We're not from a great house. We're not the maester of Castle Black. His words to Jon here, especially for us as viewers, when we have the context of the decisions that Ned actually is making in parallel with this exchange, would still stand as some of, I think, the most essential decisions.

in the history of Game of Thrones. They are with Jon all the way at the end in the final moments of season eight. And I think that they should be with us now on the eve of this new story because this is a story that,

defined by choice, defined by the alliances that people forge, the decisions that they make, by the loyalties that they maintain, by the fractures that set in and then rupture and the chasms that open and all of the people who fall into them after they do, like the impulses and the yearning and where that leads everyone. Like when a family tears itself apart,

and relations are driven to war. And people who, even if they're not family members, have long time been allies. Love and duty are going to routinely be in conflict in this story. And Eamon is a character who always has such a remarkable...

grace and empathy as he is imparting perspective because he, one of the lessons that he has learned is that you have to be the one to make those decisions for yourself. So he says to John, we are all humans.

We all do our duty when there's no cost to it. Honor comes easy then. Yet sooner or later in every man's life, there comes a day when it is not easy, a day when he must choose. And the characters that we're about to meet in House of the Dragon are all going to have a day when they must choose. And some of them are going to have more than one day when they must choose. So will they make the right choice? Will they make the wrong choice? How will they know?

How will we know? And the only answer to that is the next thing that Amon says to John, which is, I will not tell you to stay or go. You must make that choice for yourself. That's the part that always makes me cry. And live with it for the rest of your days, as I have. Like that regret, that regret that is inextricable from...

The thirst and the hunger and the righteousness, misguided though it often is, that drives these characters is just such a rich vein to tap for stories. And it's the through line of the tale we're about to see. Can't wait. Amen! That's so interesting. I also got teary-eyed listening to that because, for a few reasons. One is that there's this incredible...

YouTube video, an R plus L equals J YouTube video that I've watched a million times that uses this speech just over the whole thing. So I could like hear the music and see the clips and I started to cry thinking about like that time in the fandom. Can I tell you why this didn't make my list despite being on the short list for me is that Game of Thrones, Song of Ice and Fire was

driven by a number of different characters, but it is a very Stark forward narrative. This idea of, it's not their words, but family duty, honor. That is such a strong, Ned Stark's principles and what his children learn from him and how the idea of duty and honor and what we owe the realm. Jaime Lannister talking about caring for the realm. Tyrion talking about caring for the realm. People like

Varys and Littlefinger. Yeah, the realm someone must. Yeah, what does it mean to care for the realm? And I don't get the sense that these Targaryens cared that much about the realm or duty or honor. Definitely not honor. You know what I mean? Their code is driven by something else. But you make a really good case about choice and regret. Because, of course, Aemon's talking here about the fact that he declined the throne and had he not...

Ares never would have sat on the throne and Wildfire would never have ravaged the city. So he's carrying that burden on himself. So the regret and the weight of our choices, I think you are really smart to identify that as a really important, what if I hadn't? What if I had just done this differently? And the stakes are so high when it comes to these various characters and the dynasties that they swing based on their choices. Yeah.

Yeah. And just what happens to when you're up at Castle Black, which again is a more specific Amen John thing and the fall of your house is unfolding elsewhere and you feel that pull, but you have to make the decision like which part of your own history or your own life or the own, the relationships that have defined your experience, um,

or the dominant pull on you at a given moment, like shifting allegiances are going to be a big part of, of house of the dragon. It's not like everything's tight, going to tidily fall into place in the middle of season one. And then it's just going to stay that way. This is going to be messy and it's messy in part because of the various reasons that people make decisions or think they should make decisions. And it's, it's like very, you know,

George loves to quote that Faulkner line, right? He's been doing it for years. The only thing worth writing about conflict in the old human heart. Like that's the reason that he's telling these stories in the first place. And so that I think is why I love that moment so much because no matter what,

Which house or which time period or which specific allegiance is at play. There's always going to be conflict for a character in a George R.R. Martin story. And there will be moments where that conflict comes to the fore. What choices will they make?

Chills. Chills. Also, I wish you guys had all seen Mallory like thumping on her ticker as she like delivered that Faulkner line. Just like the old ticker thump. A loose paraphrase of a very famous quote. All right. My number five, you either have here or higher. So I'll just knock out really quickly to let me know. Season two, episode seven, A Man Without Honor. Aria is Tywin's cupbearer. I have it at number four.

All right. So we'll talk about it soon. Very close. What's your five? This one's for you. It's for us. I mean, it's for our listeners, I hope. But really, I mean, it's for us. I have here at number five a trio of Jorah Bormont quotes. Oh, my sister wife. Oh, boy. You know, it's not really seven moments if each of them is three. But alas, here we are. Here we are. So in...

Season four, episode seven, Mockingbird. Jorah tells Dany who is sending Dario to retake Yunkai and execute all the masters. You're here early. Later than some. Jorah! Jorah says...

28 minutes into this episode. It's tempting to see your enemies as evil, all of them, but there's good and evil on both sides in every war ever fought. Let the priests argue over good and evil. Slavery is real. Again, this story is about the Dance of the Dragons, the Targaryen War of Succession, when dragon lords fight each other and bathe the realm in fire in pursuit of the Iron Throne. How, as a family is fighting itself, do we decide who's right?

Right. How do we decide who to root for? How do the characters in the world decide who to align with, who to pledge their support to, how long to keep that support intact? This, again, gets right back to that George idea, the conflict in the human heart, right? Well...

In season three, episode three, Walk of Punishment, Jorah says something else. He tells Dany and Barristan Selmy, who is there, there's a beast in every man, and it stirs when you put a sword in his hand. Now, we're going to watch a lot of beasts stirring in House of the Dragon. Characters who...

Even in the limited time we will spend with them, we would not think would be inclined to act or behave in a certain way to do certain things, would not be capable of doing certain things. And we will see how quickly that changes for them. And, you know, again, I just think that's always like so central to the tales that we

George's crafting where these characters, even though they're just doing like truly the horrible and hideous things, they feel very real because they are so deeply fallible. Like the heroes who we root for are capable of making really grave mistakes. And the really hideous characters can sometimes find themselves in positions of great power. Right. And so House of the Dragon is going to be very like rooted in the complexities of that

humanity and when the characters in the world and we as viewers are able to basically make the distinction between those poles or have to accept that there isn't always a clear distinction, that there's this messy brew, which brings me to another Jorah line. Season two, episode seven, a man without honor hearing this again. Handsome and smart. Yeah. He looks particularly great in this, in this episode, gotta say. Yeah.

This is in Karth, 27 minutes. He says, no one can survive in this world without help. No one. Let me help you. Please tell me how. I have always loved this moment because, and you really feel what happens when that help is no longer there, right? In the end game. What happens when everybody wants the same help?

What happens when you would have the expectation that a person who is helping someone else would be helping you instead? Help from longtime allies, help from your vassals, help from seats of power. How does that influence the nature of trust and the way that it's able to last and what it looks like if it does? So, you know, House Mormont.

With us always. And Jorah, a character who made a great many mistakes of his own, I always thought that because of that, when he shared something like that with Dany, it really resonated with us as viewers because we knew that he was somebody who had learned the hard way often where mistakes can lead you and how you need to position yourself to try to avoid them in the future. Also look great. Guys!

Remember how he wore that shirt until it was just like a yellow-brown rag? Very tough. And then he got some brand new fits at the end. Yes, when the entire wardrobe of the entire cast changed in the... I'm going to talk about Jorah again before we're through here, but I'm so glad you represented him here. And I want to circle back to that sort of no side of a war is entirely good or entirely evil thing because...

You know, we've talked about what George has said about the fact that in House of the Dragon, in Hot D, there are no, like, purely good characters that you feel like you can hang your hat on, right? That when George is asked who his favorite Targaryen is, he says Daemon Targaryen is his favorite Targaryen.

Tyrion's his favorite character. Tyrion has his own darkness and light in him, but Daemon Targaryen is his favorite Targaryen. I'll just remind folks of that opening quote from The Rogue Prince about Daemon Targaryen where it says, over the centuries, House Targaryen has produced both great men and monsters. Prince Daemon was both. In his day, there was not a man so admired, so beloved, and so reviled in all of Westeros. And that's

The key to enjoying Hot D is going to be hanging out in the moral gray spaces because that's where it's going to ask you to be. And that's a perfect place to be for a civil war because there is no side. How boring if it's just the good guys versus the bad guys. How incredibly boring. The conflict is inside the old ticker. Yeah.

Not out there on the battlefield. Love to watch TV shows that linger in the moral gray. Love Hot D. This is going to be a blast. A perfect combo. Woo!

Okay, so at number four, this is where I have the Tywin-Arya legacy chat, which you had at five. So do we want to talk about that now, or do you want to do your number four? No, let's talk about Arya and Tywin. Yeah? Bring it. All right, so there's a few choice scenes to... Arya as Tywin's cupbearer is one of the grandest inspirations of the show. This is not in the books. This is something that the show came up with. It is a perfect...

Like, mashing together of two characters, a lot of tension. Brilliant. They're at Harrenhal. We will be in Harrenhal a few times in Hot D itself, right? And Tywin is talking about how grand it once was, and then he says, look at it now, a blasted ruin. Do you know what happened? Dragons? Dragons.

Yes. Dragons happen. Harrenhal was built to withstand an attack from the land. A million men could have marched on these walls and a million men would have been repelled. But an attack from the air with dragon fire. Harrenhal and all his sons roasted alive within these walls. Aegon Targaryen, Aegon the Conqueror. Aegon Targaryen changed the rules. That's why every child alive still knows his names 300 years after his death. And then Arya says, crucially, Aegon and his sisters. Love it.

It wasn't just Aegon riding his dragger. It was Rhaenys and Visenya too. Correct. A student of history, aren't you? And then she's just off in like dreamland talking about these badass ladies. She says, Rhaenys rose Meraxes, Visenya wrote Vhagar. I'm sure I knew that. And then he says...

He says, I'm sure I knew that when I was a boy. Visenya Targaryen was a great warrior. She had Valyrian steel sword. She called Dark Sister. She's a heroine of yours, I take it. Aren't most girls more interested in pretty maidens from the songs? Jon Quill with the flowers in her hair. Most girls, Arya says, are idiots. So a few key things here. Like a few...

hangovers from this ancient time into the story we're telling. Vhagar, the dragon that Visenya rode, will be in Hot D. Oh, yeah. Dark Sister, the sword, is Daemon Targaryen's sword. So, like, sword and dragon carrying over. This is...

Ancient, but not so ancient history. The dragons last a long time. Valyrian steel lasts a long time. So these are hangovers from that time. There's a lot of, again, we're talking about dragon battle and like, what can you do against dragon fire? How do you, how do you outmatch it? RIP to Heron Whore. That was a tough way to go. Yeah. What are you supposed to do? Um,

legacy, something Tywin is obsessed with, right? So why does everyone remember Aegon the Conqueror? Because he did this great, huge thing and Tywin wants the Lannister dynasty, the Lannister legacy to be as strong. Yeah.

And then last but certainly not least is that return to the earlier conversation about, like, hey, has history forgotten the women? Like, what about the women who are also here and also fighting and also ruling in every sense of the word? And I just love Arya here as, like...

of a Senya and Rhaeny's fangirl and like the dreamy look she gets on her face while she's talking about them. It's just, it's one of my favorite things of all time. Me too. This is like truly one of my favorite scenes in all of Game of Thrones. And it's a long exchange. I think one of my favorite parts about it is that there are so many different elements to it. Like there's the part where

You mentioned it, but the exact Taiwan quote at the beginning is, the war of the five kings, they're calling it. My legacy will be determined in the coming months. Do you know what legacy means? It's what you pass down to your children and your children's children. It's what remains of you when you're gone. And I love this because...

You know, Tywin has always been obsessed with legacy, real parallel to House Targaryen there. But in a way where he sees House Targaryen not only as the comp to strive for, but as the cautionary tale to seek to avoid. So, like, when you're watching this scene...

you think back now on a rewatch, you think ahead, right, to his final moments and where all of this got them and the number of times that his own children said to him, maybe if you hadn't been talking all this talk about legacy and had been paying attention to the thing right in front of you, you would know us at all and you don't, right? And like the real tragedy of that. But then also you think back to our very first moment

with Tywin in the show when in season one, episode seven, you win or you die. He's also talking about legacy and House Targaryen when he says to Jaime, Your mother's dead. Before long, I'll be dead. And you and your brother and your sister and all of our children, all of us dead, all of us rotting in the ground. It's the family name that lives on. It's all that lives on.

Not your personal glory, not your honor, but family. Do you understand? He says a lot of other things. And then the quote continues. The future of our family will be determined in these next few months. We could establish a dynasty, though. He says a dynasty. Dynasty. That will last a thousand years. Or we could collapse into nothing, as the Targaryens did. And I always love that with Tywin, that...

Even the great dynasty. Again, it's not like the thing he's seeking to match. It's the thing he's seeking to better and to trump and to avoid. Like that pursuit of legacy of something that lasts beyond your life.

That is a driving force, of course, for the Targaryens as well. And for many of the characters and houses that, you know, at some point in one of these stories are going to go astray. But with House Targaryen, their dragons really reinforce this. Like the idea that they alone can

thanks to Danus the Dreamer, had escaped the Doom as dragon riders. That, you know, House of Valerian, we'll talk about this more over the course of the actual season. They actually had gone west first. But in terms of escaping the Doom as dragon riders, it's just the Targs coming out of the Doom. And, like, the sense of might that that gave them, right? And then, like, even things like the conflict with the Faith over...

incestual marriages and breeding and the eventual arrival of the doctrine of exceptionalism and the way that that idea of exceptionalism, you have this amazing. Perfect. Okay. So I'll, we'll put a pin in that and come back to it. But this was also, so to the Aria part,

and Vesenia and Vesenia and Rhaenys and Vhagar and Meraxes and the sisters and everything you just shared. This was what I mentioned earlier when I said I had, I had the, the, the gender roles coming elsewhere because I,

You know, I think, like, you already... You mentioned Cersei. Obviously, this is central for Dany. This is elemental to Sansa's plot as well. There are a number of characters from Game of Thrones who unlock this idea for us. I think this, like, most girls are idiots moment with Arya and the draw that she has to... You know, Visenya in particular as, like, the real warrior of the sister wives...

I love so much, and it makes me think of Here Comes the Smuggle, another one of my favorite Arya moments, the classic season one episode for Cripples, Bastards, and Broken Things, That's Not Me moment with Ned on the stairs when she is imparting to Ned all of the wisdom she's already learned from Syrio. And...

She asks, can I be Lord of a whole fast? And he says, you will marry a high Lord and rule his castles and your son shall be Knights and princes and Lords. And she says, no, that's not me. Now they call back to it in season seven with Nymeria, call back to it in season eight with Gendry. It comes up many times, but

But the way that the gender politics are going to be elemental to the war and to the fight for the throne in House of the Dragon, the rules of succession, the reluctance of so many characters in Westeros to embrace a woman as ruler, that's legacy too, right? And it's a toxic legacy. And the fallout from those choices from Rhaenys, who not Rhaenys the sister wife, Rhaenys the character in House of the Dragon, the same thing!

Being passed over at the great council to those who choose to fight for or against Rhaenyra and the dance. All of that is, it's all, they're all still, you know, the, the, the poison fruit still blooming years and years into the future.

When Cersei is sitting the throne and Sansa is becoming a queen of the north, and of course when Dany is pursuing her crown, and then the secret of Jon's parentage emerges, and even characters who had been sworn to Dany, like Varys, have a moment where they're like, you know who would be easier to get the realm behind? Yeah. Like this dude, right? Yeah. And so Arya is certainly not the only...

a woman in Game of Thrones who challenges that kind of norm. But the that's not me line has always been a favorite along with that exchange with Tywin, just a favorite encapsulation of that refusal to abide by somebody else's vision for how you should live your life. And I think that is really crucial heading into House of the Dragon.

Arya is having a little bit of a pick-me-not-like-other-girls moment when she says most girls are idiots. And what we find, crucially, is that there are different kinds of power for women. And that the kind of power or agency that Arya pursues is not the, you know, that Sansa has her own road to power and they're equally valuable. So, um...

And I think that's an interesting thing to take into hot D as well is the different strains of power, which we'll talk about more. A lot of what you just said feeds beautifully into my number four. So is it cool if I hop into my number four? What is it?

Okay. You mentioned the collapse into nothing like the Targaryens did. You mentioned the Doom of Valyria. I've got season five, episode five, Kill the Boy, Tyrion and Jorah sail through Valyria. Joe, I'm thrilled right now because this was next on my, it's the next thing that didn't make my list. It's your number eight. And I was like, how do I decide between this and the thing that I put on instead? And I was just, I was like, I just, I trust that Joanna will have this. And I was right! Yeah.

Never once, never will I. All right. This is a beautiful, beautiful, like one of the most beautiful moments that has ever happened. Like visually. Reciting the poem is just gorgeous. Oh my God. So Jorah and Tyrion are on their way to Meereen. They take a very circuitous route as a matter of fact, just so they can go through old Valyria. That's fine. We're not going to get mad at the writers about this.

And Tyrion says, you know what they say, the Doom still rules Valyria. What about the demons and the flames? Aren't you afraid of the Doom? Jorah says, no. Tyrion says, the smoke can see how many centuries before we learn how to build cities like this again. For thousands of years, the Valyrians were the best in the world at almost everything. And then? And then they weren't. And then they weren't. They held each other close and turned their backs upon the end, the hills that split asunder.

and the black that ate the skies. The flames that shot so high and hot that even dragons burn. It would never be the final sights that fell upon their eyes. I fly upon a wall, the waves, the sea wind, whipped and churned. A city of a thousand years and all that men had learned. The doom consumed it all alike.

And neither of them turned. So good. This is, Tim goes, I would clap, but his hands are bound. Incredible moment. I think Brian Cogman has the writing credit on this episode, but I asked him about this poem and he said, Weiss wrote that poem. So I, you know, I give Weiss and Benioff plenty of shit. So I will give Weiss this credit for that beautiful, beautiful poetry there. Um,

And a couple things going on here. First of all, I was talking to our colleague Alison Herman about Hadi itself, and she was talking about how in Fire and Blood, how she feels like a lot of the dynamics we're seeing play out are dynamics we see playing out in A Song of Ice and Fire. And I think that's true in two different ways. One, I think George R. R. Martin uses Fire and Blood and some of his Targaryen musings as a way to sort of workshop some ideas that he's going to pull off in a more

illustrative or polished way in A Song of Ice and Fire. So it's like a rehearsal ground for him to a certain degree. But also I think he's making a larger point about history repeating itself and there are certain personality types and when they bump up against each other, the same thing happens again and again and again. The doom of Valyria, the collapse of Valyria, as it pre-

Sage is the collapse of House Targaryen. Like the fact that when we start A Song of Ice and Fire, Daenerys and Viserys are like the straggling remains of this once vast and epic dynasty. That's just Valyria repeating itself. And so what's true is that when we meet the Targaryens in Hat D...

This is the height of the Targaryens. Targaryens are thick on the ground. This is the height of their power. So many dragons, so many dragon riders. But the shadow of the Doom of Valyria is hanging over them. Like, sure, we're at the height of our power here, but so were the Valyrians before the fall of that, you know, that society. And also...

We're going to circle again and again. This is not actually even where I have the Targaryen exceptionalism doctrine section, but the concept of exceptionalism, we alone escaped, and we escaped by dint of a dream that someone had. So the importance of dreams, I'm going to come back to that also. But all of that is wrapped up in this history here. And then it ends with Stoneman, very creepy, great. But before that...

Tyrion sees a dragon for the first time. Drogon flaps. Don't know what Drogon's doing over there, but sure. Drogon flaps his majestic wings over Valyria, and there's just this quiet moment where Tyrion, Jorah's seen dragons, but Tyrion just regards the dragon. And that's a reminder that

And not everyone has seen a dragon. And how majestic and awe-inspiring and all that sort of stuff they are. And how beautiful. So, yeah. One of my favorite things that has ever happened on Game of Thrones is that moment. Fabulous. And then the stone men just like moving in the background. Very creepy. And then Jorah gets greyscale and you're really worried. And then all it took was Sam just had to scrape it off, I think, is a...

Just scrape the gravy scale off. That scene is still the cut from the scalpel penetrating the oozing skin into the spoon entering the creamy center of a savory pie. Just cruel. You must not neglect the gravy, Mallory. You have to brown the butter!

That's a great pick. So glad that's on your list. What a wonderful scene. I love that poem. I love the first line in particular. The whole thing's great. Number three? That's your number four. Or did we do your number four? Yeah, my number four was Taiwan Aria. Oh, okay. Number three. I guess I'll go first because it just, it's a piggyback essentially on the last point because this is where I want to talk about Dragon Dreams. Oh, great. Okay. Another one I was just praying you would have on your list. I'm delighted. Okay.

We talked a lot about dragon dreams in one of our trailer episodes, so I'm not going to go all the way in the way that I did there. But I think it's important, what I didn't really get into, this idea that the Targaryens, sort of like the wolf dreams of the Stark, that the Targaryens have these dragon dreams, these visions. But crucially, and this is my book entry here.

So a couple things. Crucially, as with all prophecies and dreams, as any story, including Harry Potter, will tell us, there are twists and turns and bends, and it's really unwise to hang your destiny on a dream. And Tyrion says to Jorah, specifically in Dance of the Dragons, he says, a prophecy is like a half-trained mule. It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head. Right. But specifically...

In Clash of Kings, Daenerys Targaryen goes into the House of Undying. I fucking love this part. This is great. And there's so much she sees there. But very specifically, she has a vision of her brother Rhaegar, Jon's father. A man with purple eyes and silver hair and a woman and a baby, Aegon. Not Jon, but the other Aegon, his older brother Aegon. They're both named Aegon. Great stuff. And Elia asks Rhaegar...

Ilya asks Rhaegar if he'll make a song for Aegon, and Rhaegar says that he has a song because he's the prince that was promised, and his is the Song of Ice and Fire. Rhaegar then looks at Daenerys and he says, there must be one more because the dragon has three heads. So this is all cut. We don't know the full extent of this yet because George hasn't written it yet, but piecing together our understanding of this vision here as well as what we learn in the show, the idea is that Daenerys' older brother, Rhaegar Targaryen,

who is next in line to the throne, Jon's father, married to another woman, Elia Martell, runs off with Lyanna Stark, Ned's sister, because he believes in a prophecy and believes in having three sons. And Ili can no longer give him children. So he's like, well, I'll father another child. And like, do we believe he also loved Lyanna? Sure. If you choose to believe that, I choose to believe it. Great.

But it's a prophecy that moved him. He's conviction. There must be three heads to this dragon. I need another son. It has been prophesied. A prince who was promised. I have to have one. And to the ruin of the kingdom, to Robert's rebellion, to everything that comes after that is because of what Rhaegar does here. And I just think that that exploration of

the poison pill that is a prophecy and the dangers of falling in. And like the Targaryens are especially susceptible to this idea of destiny. Yes. Particularly because Targaryen

a dream is what saved them from the doom of Valyria. I was just going to say that. I'm really glad you have this on here because plenty of other characters have a dalliance with prophecy in A Song of Ice and Fire. Cersei and Maggie the Frog to come up with just one example, right? But exactly as you just said, the fact that House Targaryen traces its strength and its current might and position of power, current meaning in the

part of the timeline before the fall of Astardarian, obviously, to that prophetic dream, to fleeing 12 years before the Doom, they tend to put a lot of stock into these dreams. And the trailer for House of the Dragon opens with Viserys talking about a dream. Like, it's... This is a great one. This is a good one. Really good.

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My next one, my number three, it connects to Destiny a bit, though it's not about a character who you might have expected to appear on my list. I have a Stannis item for you here. I love Stannis, so I'm delighted that he's here. Tell me. Okay, so... FIWA. FIWA. My number three...

is actually from the season five episode, episode nine, an episode, the episode called The Dance of Dragons. I have a few different picks within this episode, but broadly, this is about dear sweet Shireen teaching Stannis about the dance and then Stannis burning his daughter, Shireen Barabian, alive at the stake in pursuit of his own destiny. Happens to the best of us. Rough one.

Very tough. I will say, before getting to Stannis and Shireen, this whole episode is really handy prep and worth rewatching because there's also a lot of dragon-centric reasons to...

to revisit this here. This is, of course, the episode where Dany rides Drogon for the first time and he rescues her from the Sons of the Harpy attack in the fighting pits of Meereen. And there's some, you know, dragons or vulnerable whispers that seep into the wider realm and lead to big crossbow and bigger crossbow, et cetera, after the dragonfellas. Just tragic stuff. Tragic. But, like, also just, you know, remember the thrill that you felt when you saw

Drogon arrive at the end of this episode. This is like the 50-minute mark. And then you see Dany mount him for the first time. And you mentioned earlier...

The look of awe on Tyrion's face when he's gazing up at Drogon as they're sailing through Valyria. Like, that look of awe is on every character's face in this scene as they see Dany take flight because this is not a thing that any that had been seen in living memory at that point in the story. And so in House of the Dragon, that will just be routine. It will be routine. And that's like awe of a different sort. Can I wait? Can I do a quick, quick, quick... Sorry. So sorry. Okay.

Have you heard the hat on the hook thing? I teased this on Trial by Content, but I just wanted to ask you. Did you hear about this? So in Hot D, this pertains to Daenerys riding Drogon. In Hot D, the dragons have saddles. There's like a whole dragon infrastructure, right? But Daenerys rides bareback because like that's... And like, so how does Daenerys stay...

on the dragon. And we were told by a friend of ours who works on the show that they always sort of, she always sort of thought of it, and a few of them always sort of thought of it as like, like a hat on a, I don't know how to describe it, a hat on a hook. So like, this, this spine. Because she like holds the spikes. Yeah, but like, where's the other spike is the question. Oh my God.

Ring of Wrist contains adult content. Jesus! Yeah. Hand on a hook. Hook was like their phrase. Oh my god. That's... Just wanted to make sure that you knew that. Sheesh, that's a lot. It's a lot. To take in and... Phrasing. Well then, okay. So, some grim stuff, some grim reminders coming up here as we talk about Shireen, but...

The real, I think, thematic resonance in this episode in terms of prepping for House of the Dragon comes not actually just from the Drogon Dany stuff, but from everything with Stannis and Shireen, this really misguided would-be king and his precious, wonderful child who was cruelly, cruelly taken from us. Shireen teaches her father, who is in this fit of despair after the burning of the camp,

About the dance. He sees her reading The Dance of Dragons and asks what it's about, which I have always found very troubling because Stannis is seeking to be king of the Seven Kingdoms and doesn't appear to know some very crucial Seven Kingdoms history here. Very tough for Stannis. I bet Renly knows. Without question, I'll be bringing up Renly again in a mere moment. Great.

So, naturally, Shireen provides a great and very helpful answer. And there are some, like, small... I don't even know if you would really count them as spoilers, but I won't read the quote in full just given some of the characters who she mentions who are kind of key players. But the takeaway, the upshot for Stannis in terms of this sequence is that she...

much like in the Dany sequence that I mentioned earlier, the dragon pit, really talks about the cost, the toll for House Targaryen. She says, brothers fought brothers, dragons fought dragons. By the time it was over, thousands were dead, and it was a disaster for the Targaryens as well. Now, the real lesson here, and this connects to our discussion from earlier about the presence of choice, right, is that Stannis asks his daughter,

as he is poised to make a terrible choice of his own, which side she would have taken in the dance. And she says, 31 minutes, 52 seconds. I wouldn't have chosen either. It was all the choosing sides that made everything so horrible.

On the one hand, you have the real importance of choice, right? And needing to find your way with confidence to the decisions that you have to make. But then in terms of the civil war, a house divided aspect of it, choosing in this way, right? In part,

Because you believe so fully in your own destiny that you will make any choice to reach that end. And that gets back to what you're saying about prophecy, because one of the things that Stannis says in response to this is sometimes a person has to choose. Sometimes the world forces his hand. If a man knows what he is and remains true to himself, the choice is no choice at all. He must fulfill his destiny and become who he is meant to be, however much he may hate it. Now, Stannis has his...

very rigid views on justice and what is right. But when he's talking there about destiny, he's not just talking about the fact that he is because, uh, uh, because Joffrey and Tommen and Marcella are, are born of, are, are bastards born of incest that he is Robert's rightful heir. He's talking about everything he's been hearing from Alessandra about the fact

that he is, for instance, promised, right? So what does he do to try to fulfill his destiny? He burns his own child, his own daughter at the stake. This beacon of light and good and joy. Does it help him? No. It is the final betrayal of his own humanity that ensures, absolutely ensures, his defeat. And so

On the eve of House of the Dragon, I think this is important to revisit for a few different reasons. As our colleague Zach Cram noted in his piece on TheRinger.com, what a great website, seven episodes to rewatch before House of the Dragon. He had this one on there. There's a get ready to see a lot of terrible things happen to children aspect of the prep here. Grim though it may be, that is definitely a part of the new show. It's also just, I think, a really...

and hideous reminder of how far these characters are willing to go sometimes to achieve their ends when they believe particularly that those ends are ordained in some way. And it's a reminder of how few characters possess real wisdom, like a real ability to see the wise choice and to know what choice is right. And also, of course, a reminder of what even families and sometimes especially families can do to each other. Sometimes,

Stannis'

for the throne, one of the earliest and bloodiest things that happens, Smoke maybe Stanny, right? Who was his victim there? It's Renly. It's his own brother. House Baratheon is battling itself. Renly is making jokes about, oh, you know, asking Stannis about his standard and making jokes about how terribly confusing the battle would be if they used the same banner. But it's a reminder of the fact that brother is fighting brother, right? A house is fighting itself. And,

And that great sequence, that season two, episode four, Garden of Bones, Renly Stannis sequence with the just all-timer, the is he a ham? Barb, just phenomenal. No one wants you for your king. You never wanted any friends, brother, but a man without friends is a man without power. There's a Renly smuggle for you here, right? Yeah.

why did so many flock to Renly instead of Stannis? What does that tell us? How can we expect that to influence the events that we're about to see here? And there's a text version of this, right? A connection to this from A Clash of Kings. We'll move from hams to peaches just for a second here. I was so hoping the peach would come out. Very important as we embark on a family civil war here. Quote,

Renly offered me a peach at our parlay. Mocked me, defied me, threatened me, and offered me a peach. I thought he was drawing a blade and went for my known. Was that his purpose? To make me show fear? Or was it one of his pointless jests? When he spoke of how sweet the peach was, did his words have some hidden meaning? The king gave a shake of his head like a dog shaking a rabbit to snap its neck.

Only Renly could vex me so with a piece of fruit. He brought his doom on himself with his treason, but I did love him, Davos. I know that now. I swear I will go to my grave thinking of my brother's peach. Like, this is the kind of thing, once you do it, that haunts you forever. And that's what this entire show is about. Oh, I love that. That's such a good call. I love Renly's peach. The...

I think what's so interesting about that is, like, as we talk about succession and, like, who has a proper claim on the throne, right? And so Stannis believes he has a proper claim because Tommen and Joffrey and Myrcella are blonde. Yeah.

The seat is strong. The seat is strong, right? And then Renly, Felicia has a stronger claim because he's more popular. Because people like him. He's the people's princess. And so it's like Renly's claim is pretty soft there. But yeah, it's interesting. And these things get so messy. But to go back to where you started with Shireen and the idea of choice, I

I would say that a lot of things kick off in this Targaryen Civil War hot D because someone is afraid to make a choice. Afraid to make a choice. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. So it's complicated. Absolutely. Oh, Shireen. Terrible. Number two? Number two. What do you got? Top two. This is where I want to talk about Targaryen exceptionalism. Oh, great. Okay. Awesome. Okay. Okay.

As it relates to one of my actual personal favorite Targaryens. So Targaryen exceptionalism, as Mallory started saying earlier and before I rudely cut her off, that King Jaehaerys I, who is the ruling king at the very, very beginning of House of the Dragon. He's the old king at that point. He's been ruling for a good long while. Yeah.

And he comes up with this doctrine of exceptionalism to appease the church, to make it okay for Targaryens to continue on with their incest. Because the argument is we cannot thin our blood with the commoners. We are gods among men. We are exceptional. And there's some evidence to this in the text in terms of the fact that, like, Targaryens don't get sick. It's not just that Targaryens can, like, enjoy a hotter bath. Targaryens also, like, don't get sick. Right.

When plagues come sweeping through the, you know, the world, the nation, Targaryens are fine for the most part. Like, so that's feeds into their exceptionalism. The fact that they're the only ones who can ride dragons and stuff like that. So that idea of exceptionalism infects. Is there anything else you want to say about the doctrine? No, no. Okay. The idea of exceptionalism infects

Even the most unexceptional people. And here I am to talk to you about one of my favorite Targaryens, Viserys Targaryen the Younger. I love it. I love this little piece of shit. Daenerys' brother. Her terrible brother. And I'm here to talk about that very scene. Season one, episode four. Cripples, bastards, and broken things. I love it. When Viserys and Dorea take a bath and they talk about dragon history.

And he says, she says, they call you the last dragon. He says, they do. You have dragon's blood in your veins. It's entirely possible. What happened to the dragons? I was told that brave men killed them on. No, no. The brave men didn't kill dragons. The brave men rode them.

rode them from Valyria to build the greatest civilization this world has ever seen. The breath of the greatest dragon forged the Iron Throne, which the usurper is keeping warm for me. The swords of the vanquished, a thousand of them melted together like so many candles."

and she says, I've always wanted to see a dragon. There's nothing in the world that I would rather see. And it's important to note that when he says like so many candles, she begins pouring melted candle wax on his chest and they're fucking in the bathtub as this entire conversation is taking place because this is Game of Thrones. Carry on. Because Game of Thrones in general, especially Game of Thrones season one, where they're like,

And big arachnid. They cannot talk about history without people fucking. This was early Thrones. Love that. She says, Dorea says, and they kill anyone or anything that tries to hurt them gets burned away to nothing, melted like so many candles. Ow, he says. Yes, seeing a dragon would make me very happy. So this is the thing is like Viserys when he's like,

my throne, my birthright, give me my army, like, let me go home, I gotta do this, like, what, and you're like, what in this little piece of shit's life is, like, ejecting him with so much confidence that he feels like he's entitled to all of this, and it's this Targaryen exceptionalism that was just sort of poured into his head from birth. He had a little, he had more time than Daenerys did, like, in the court, and, uh,

And they just believe that they are gods among men, even if he doesn't even have a fucking dragon. And he's like, but I am the dragon. I am the dragon. And I will rule the Seven Kingdoms again because that is what Targaryens are entitled to. And so that...

I just think he's the perfect example of Targaryen exceptionalism gone so completely wrong. It's for Cerys Targaryen. Yeah. Not only not the last dragon, but, you know, to quote our guy Jorah again, less than the shadow of a snake. Brutal. The bathtub scene really in all timer. Truly great. So good. Never disappoints. I

a dragon collection here at number two. So this is well placed here. Number two is just our dragon stuff. I'm combining dragon births, dragon deaths, and dragon battles into one entry here. And this will not be all of those things, of course, or all of the things in each of those subsections, but...

just to kind of run through some things that might be, you know, worth revisiting or refreshing on. You know, I think the entire list could have ultimately just been stuff like this, but obviously we wanted to hit on a lot of other things. So, dragon births, of course, the season one finale, fire and blood, Dany emerging from the flames of Jorgo's funeral pyre and Mirri's execution pyre as the unburnt in the mother of dragons and just that

That awe on display as Jorah and the remaining assembled kneel and the little tiny little dragon babies love a hatchling. Love a hatchling. Yeah. The return to the world of this dragon

great wonder, the source of magic and power and what that means for other magic in the world and the return there too and the strengthening of that. Canonically, during the dance, 20 dragons lived. We know from the press tour leading into the show that there are going to be 17 dragons featured in House of the Dragon and that there will be nine in season one per Miguel Sapochnik, co-showrunner, director. He said this to Empire. So,

It's just a different relationship to dragons, right? For us as viewers, where this thing that we were introduced to as long extinct and absent will be very present in a show that will centrally focus on the dragon riders themselves. So then that takes us to dragon deaths. Now, this is a painful one. On the rewatch...

Just really hurts to see Viserion fall to the Night King. I can barely still now even talk about what happened to Rhaegal. Like, literally can barely talk about it. It makes me so mad still. Dany kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet, and I would like to forget about what happened here. But this is an essential part of the story and a war in which both sides ride dragons. Now, for a show refresher, I think...

you know, again, I just cannot like bring myself to recommend season eight to the last of the Starks. And so I won't, but let's instead look at season seven, episode six, beyond the wall when Olympic gold medalist in the javelin toss, the night game takes down Vissarion at the 52 minute Mark, uh,

Sweet Viserion, just more vulnerable than he should have been after he had been chained in the Catacombs of Meereen for so long. Never got a rider while he was alive before he was reanimated and then the Night King rode him to dig down the wall. It just makes me so sad. Now, even dragons with riders...

can be vulnerable. And we will see dragons in battle and in positions of peril very often over the course of a war involving multiple dragon riders. So if you have a dragon,

You know that your enemy is thinking about one thing, how to take your dragon away from you so that you are more vulnerable and you are more susceptible. So for a book refresher, and I'm not obviously not going to talk about anything for any of the dragons in the impending show, but let's go back. Let's go back to the conquest and the years following the conquest. Let's go back to our dear. Here's something. Here's a passage from Fire and Blood.

I hope that Harry Lloyd has like heard your impression of this. I mean. Harry Lloyd was a beautiful voice, by the way. Oh, God. Quote, Rhaenys and Meraxes returned once more to the Hellholt where tragedy struck. The Targaryen dragons bred and trained to battle had flown through storms of spears and arrows on many occasions and suffered little harm. The scales of a full grown dragon were harder than steel.

And even those arrows that struck home seldom penetrated enough to do more than enrage the great beasts. But as Meraxes banked above the hellhole to defend her atop the castle's highest tower, triggered a scorpion and a yard-long iron bolt caught the queen's dragon in the right eye. Meraxes did not die at once, but came crashing to earth in mortal agony.

destroying the tower in a large section of the Hellholtz curtain wall in her death throes. R.I.P. Meraxes. Farewell to Rhaenys, Aegon the Conqueror's favorite sister wife. I mean, spoiler alert, spoiler alert. We're going to see a lot of dragons die. You gotta refresh on what makes them vulnerable. And also what they look like in battle, which is the final part of this entry here.

Now, certainly not going to go through every single time we saw the dragons in action in Game of Thrones, but I think a couple key things to revisit. One would be the long night, season eight, episode three, because...

Of course, there are only three dragons in Game of Thrones and they're on the same team until the Night King turns Viserion, right? So we only get one dragon-on-dragon fight episode and it's this one. And it is, even though Viserion has been reanimated and is a different sort of beast at that point, watching Drogon and Rhaegal face off against Viserion is harrowing and definitely worth revisiting. Also, this is a Sapochnik-directed dragon battle episode.

So handy to refresh on that too. If you want to make sure you can see it. Yes. I would recommend listening to the latest trial by content episode where Neil Miller goes over his TV settings for enjoying the long night. So on my, on my rewatch, because this was obviously just this week that I rewatched this. It was a Monday night, pitch black, you know, settings proper. And of course these episodes are now remastered in 4k.

Looked fucking great. Yeah. God is great. Love it. Looked great. The one other...

in battle episode that I wanted to mention if you want to quickly go back and watch just a few minutes is Spoils of War, season seven, episode four. The 39 minute mark, 47 seconds when Drogon first screeches and emerges. Start from there and take in the absolute carnage. Now, of course, this is not a dragon on dragon battle, but this connects, I think, Joe, to what you were saying earlier.

about the small folk and just the realm and what can befall the people below when a dragon is unleashed upon them, right? And the loot train attack is so memorable, not because it is called loot train, but because... I hate that name. Loot train! The just absolute shock of seeing a dragon attack in the open field in Westeros. You know, we'd seen Dany use the dragons in Essos, but here in the Seven Kingdoms? Yeah. Yeah.

And for Jaime Lannister, who has seen so much battle in his day, like, his reaction to it is huge. Never seen anything like it. Absolutely. You mentioned Field of Fire. I'm glad. Because it is influenced by Field of Fire from the text, right? And that is also, I think, if people want to go to the tomes at all, it's definitely...

worth scanning that passage of fire and blood to really quickly digest what dragons unleashed in the field on the unsuspecting poor fools below can do. I think my favorite part of that passage, King Mern,

Fucking idiot. You know, it was like, I've got five times the men as Aegon and his sisters. Now, this was all three dragons. This was Aegon and Visenya and Rhaenys all in the field, that dry grass ready to catch fire and engulf everyone. But the passage is running through all of the carnage. The field of fire, the battle was named afterward. More than 4,000 men died in the flames. Another 1,000 perished by the sword and the spear. On and on it goes. And then it builds to this line.

The Targaryens lost fewer than 100 men. Like, that's the difference that the dragons make. It is that stark. And Spoils of War, I think that's the most beautiful, for me, the most beautiful dragon stuff. Like, just the shot of Drogon just, like, mowing the fire down a line. The Ramin Djawadi score as he does it, you know? There's, like, the Ramin Djawadi score, and then there's also...

That's one of my favorite examples of the score working in tandem with the sound design and how they had to sort of like pick and choose what moments to like amp up the score and when to hear the dragon and the roar of the fire and stuff like that. I just, I love, I love that sequence a lot. Harrowing stuff. Good job to everyone, including director Matt Shackman, who would go on to make WandaVision. Okay. My number one? Hit me.

There are no Targaryens or even dragons in my number one. Same. But it is... Okay. But it is my number one moment from all of Game of Thrones. I think it is the key to everything. And it is season two, episode three, What is Dead May Never Die, Varys and Tyrion talking about power. Hell yeah. Okay. All-timer. Not the same as yours. Great. Okay. I'll do... And I'm going to do a little smuggle here as well. But anyway, Varys and Tyrion...

Two men having a conversation in a room. Power is a curious thing, my lord. Are you fond of riddles? Tears is why I'm about to hear one. I'm about to hear one. Three great men sit in a room. A king, a priest, and a rich man. Between them stands a common sellsword. Each great man bids the sellsword kill the other two. Who lives, who dies.

Depends on the sellsword. Does it? He has neither crown nor gold nor favor with the gods. He has a sword, the power of life and death. But if it's swordsmen who rule, why do we pretend kings hold all the power? When Ned Stark lost his head, who was truly responsible? Joffrey? The Executioner? Or something else? I've decided I don't like riddles. Power resides where men believe it resides. It's a trick.

a shadow on the wall, and a very small man can cast a very large shadow. That's it. That's the line of Thrones for me. Power resides where men believe it resides. And sometimes it doesn't matter how many dragons you have or how many allies you have or how popular you are or this, that, or the other thing. Power resides where men believe. And there's actually so many moments that I would put up here at the top because I could eat the...

Tywin and Tommen conversation in Breaker of Chains about what makes a good king, an all-timer. However, Tywin's kind of trying to manipulate Tommen when he's talking to him because he's basically trying to get Tommen to a place where he's like, a good king listens to his grandfather and lets me make all the decisions. So I'm not sure that Tywin is being exactly forthright in his analysis there, though it's a fantastic scene and Charles Dance absolutely kills it. And then I would also say that

an old-timer, top-tier scene that's not on my list here, but is Varys and Littlefinger in front of the Iron Throne that ends with, you know, chaos isn't a pit, chaos is a ladder. However, again, they're talking about, like, the realm and, like, all these concepts that, again, I'm not really sure the Targaryens are that interested in. But this idea of the...

ephemeral concept of power and how it does not have to do with the crown or gold or dragons even or whatever it's just what you can convince people power means and so that power is above all else a game of the mind which is where characters like Varys and Tyrion shine of course um

And I love, you know, we've got heroes. We've got kings and queens and dragons and knights and all this other stuff going on in Game of Thrones. But the thing that makes Game of Thrones so interesting are the schemers and the behind-the-scenes players. It's why no other major epic fantasy has a character like Tyrion Lannister. And I think that he is the reason why.

Jon and Daenerys are obviously important, but Tyrion is the reason why this story is so interesting. And so I will be looking in Hat D. I'll be looking in the corners for the schemers because I think that's what makes the story so fascinating. Because, like, you know, brilliant masterminds of war and people equipped with tons of fighters can do what they may, but someone whispering in the shadow with their little birds in attendance are going to pull the strings in another direction. And that's what I love about this world, especially Tyrion.

how much palace intrigue is involved in the House of the Dragon. So that's my number one, Mallory Rubin. Great one. Let's do it. Great one. Fantastic moment. One of my absolute favorite Thrones lines and scenes. You know, they say that schemes and plots are the same thing, Jo, and hopefully Game of Thrones and Hot D will be the same thing too in terms of prominently featuring the plotters and the schemers. So my number one is...

Not actually plot prep. It is just a pure feeling. Yeah. Hell yeah. I'm just going to get really sappy here for a second. I couldn't help myself. As I was making the list, I had like 20, 30 other things in consideration for the final spot. And I kept, kept, kept thinking about one of my favorite lines from the books is,

and decided to pick it for my number one. And it is Jon and Arya in A Game of Thrones. I'll try to read this without just weeping freely. No, the tears are part of it. Quote, this is when they're saying goodbye to each other. Jon messed up her hair. I will miss you, little sister. Suddenly she looked like she was going to cry. I wish you were coming with us. And then Jon says to her,

different roads sometimes lead to the same castle. Who knows? He was feeling better now. He was not going to let himself be sad. I've always just loved that moment and that line so much. Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle. Who knows? And, you know, we are on the eve of this grand new adventure together. And it's just really...

Exciting to me to get to go back to the land of ice and fire with you and other people who love this world and the story and these characters. And we've all spent a lot of time over the last three years, reasonably and rightly, talking about how disappointing the end of the show was. And it was. Maybe that feeling that we were looking for is something we can still get.

Somewhere else. Because different roads sometimes lead to the same castle. You know? Who knows? And in general, like what John is saying there about the uncertainty and the unknowable aspects of life and how like sometimes that can be scary, right? But also sometimes it can be beautiful and it can be the thing that you hold on to when you're looking to find your way back to somebody or something that you love and just trusting that they might be there too.

First of all, that was absolutely beautiful. Thank you for sharing it with me. Secondly, and I think this is okay to say, that you and I are both extremely excited to do this together, but you and I are doing things differently than we've done it in the past. We're thrilled to be partners here. There are partners who aren't here, and that is emotional in its own right. And so it's all part of the journey. And I'm...

I'm thrilled to be in it with you. I'm so glad you picked something zappy here at the top, something very emotional. I was trying to figure out how to justify bringing in my emotional apex of Game of Thrones, which is Brienne of Tarth being knighted in Night of Seven Kingdoms. It's something that I can cry about just thinking about. Same.

And I guess, and I couldn't figure out a way to justify it, but I guess what's true is that, and this is true for all the stories that you and I cover, Mallory, is like,

especially for the way that I think you and I both choose to read things, is that things matter because we fall in love deeply with characters and we care about them with our whole hearts. And like, you can take all your spectacular dragons and all your, you know, whatever, and it doesn't work if we're not emotionally invested in the characters. The characters of House of the Dragon are going to be a little hard

Harder to love because they are those gray characters. So we don't have Aryas and Brienne's necessarily here. But if I know you, you're going to find a way to love them anyway. And that's what drives us to talk about these stories is our...

like massive attachment to these characters. Absolutely. We might have a lot of Jamie's, you know, and I love a Jamie. Amazing. And then when you get to that moment where a beautiful bearded Jamie Lannister looks down upon you and says, I charge you to be brave. Woo. How good does that feel? Man, a night of the seven kingdoms is really an all time episode. Rewatching that was special. That's the last, the beautiful, real true. Farewell.

Yep. That's the last great thing that... Jenny's song. Ugh. Chills. Chills! Okay! We did it! Just a few tears. Oh my god. It is emotional. Game of Thrones is a really big part of our lives. It is really emotional to be on the eve of doing this again. I can't believe it is quite literally mere days away. But...

We get to talk about this for the next 10 weeks together. What a special thing. Excited. Yeah. Mragsy. Hat on a hook, baby. Hat on a hook. All right, friends. Our hearts remain as one. Thank you to our Dragon Lords, Steve Allman, for senior producing this episode.

Arjuna Ramgopal, happy birthday. I mean, when you hear this, his birthday will have happened already, but still, happy birthday for his additional production work on this episode and Jomia Deneron for his work on the social for this episode. Remember.

Not going to go through all the programming reminders again. You can hear the 10-minute version of that at the beginning of this episode. But remember to head back into the Ringiverse this Sunday night, immediately after the House of the Dragon premiere for Talk the Thrones, House of the Dragon with Chris Ryan, Joanna Robinson. Then we'll see you as you truly are. ♪

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