‘Rings of Power’ Season 2, Episode 4 Deep Dive | House of R
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Alone yourself? I'm nameless. But you are young. And I am old. Eldest. That's what I am. What do you mean, eldest? Eldest. Mark my words, friend. Tom was there before the river and the trees. Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless.

Hello and welcome to House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson and joining me today, we've got some Ents, we've got some Barrow-Whites, we've got Tom Bombadil, but most importantly of all, we've got Mallory Rubin. Hey, Mallory, how you doing? Joanna, clean your hands, wash your face, and then come join me by the fire so we can pod.

What you didn't see is that Mallory then just like hucked a bar of soap at me. Thanks for the hospitality, Mal. I really appreciate it. Yeah, you bet. I've done as such as I can with your filthy robe. Yes, well, you know me. All right, so we are here today to talk about season two, episode four already of The Rings of Power. Already halfway through. How are you feeling, Mal?

I can't believe it's the halfway mark already. I just, I'm not quite ready to cope with being halfway through season two. It feels like we just started because we did one week ago.

I know. It's disorienting. Very. My head is spinning and I'm sad that we only have one more month of this, but we will make, we will gather the water lilies while we may. Okay. So we'll be doing that. We'll be covering rings of power in perpetuity for the future. And you should know that next week,

We are doing an added Rings of Power episode. We are doing a special The Music of Tolkien episode next week that we're very excited about. We're going to talk about, obviously, there's a lot of music in this episode. We're going to talk about music in Tolkien in general. He loved a song.

We went to go see the Lord of the Rings musical. We're going to talk about that. There is a Rufus Wainwright song in this episode of the Rings of Power. So we can talk about all about that next week on House of R over in the Ringiverse. Listen.

Steve was giving me a little preview before we started recording. He and Jomie are gonna be covering Terminator zero on mint edition this week. And, um, here's the, here's the bottom line. Not as much Timothy Oliphant as you want. Oh, no. Crushing. Crushing. I know. Oh my goodness. Exactly. Calamity. Um,

Oh, no. I watched your hopes rise in real time. And then just like crater back into the back to tank for me. Okay. So over a button mash. It's a question I'm always asking myself. Okay. Listen, over a button mash, they're covering Astro Bot. The Midnight Boys are doing the whitest movies draft ever.

And I cannot wait. Truly. Incredible. Going to be a great time. So that's what's going on around these here parts. And pretty soon we're going to be in Agatha and Penguin and all of that's coming up really soon for us. So Mallory Rubin, how can folks get track of everything that's going on? Thanks for asking. Here are my recommendations. One, follow the pod. Follow House of R. Follow the Ringiverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

Follow the ringer verse on YouTube. We have a channel new as of this summer. You can find full video episodes of house of our, the podcast that you were listening to at this very moment and the midnight boys on that ringer verse YouTube channel and on Spotify while you're at it, you're at your computer, your phone's in your hand, whatever the case may be. Follow the ringer verse on the social media platform of your choosing. We are on Instagram, Tik TOK, Twitter, and then

Send us an email. Hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com. Spoiler warning today. We're sort of back to the three rings of spoilers. Really only two rings this week. I didn't have anything for the like hardcore spoiler section. So we will be giving you warnings sort of throughout. But listen, the first spoiler

Most of the deep dive is just us covering, hey, we're pretty sure you know the events of Lord of the Rings, the Peter Jackson films, or the Tolkien books, and we're pretty sure you've watched up through episode four of season two of Rings of Power. That's what we're here to talk about today. And then a little bit later, we'll have some speculation stuff, maybe informed by some other things that will come in a later section. We'll just tell you all about it when we get there. Mal,

Mallory and I, once again, are not watching ahead on screeners. So that's just something for you to know. Um,

Quick bit of business really quickly. I got some pushback on my Bakshi recommendation. The animated, in our mail backups that we did earlier this week, we got a question from a listener about, you know, kid-friendly, young kid-friendly Lord of the Rings content. And I recommend the Ralph Bakshi movie. And then a bunch of people were just like, excuse me, that is a very traumatizing and scary movie. Mm.

And what I realized is that I am a child of the 80s and I grew up on like the Dark Crystal and Return to Oz and all that kind of stuff, Labyrinth. And so like spooky, scary kid stuff is sort of in my wheelhouse. But what do you think, Mal?

I don't trust myself to be a barometer for what is scary to people or when people should read or watch something. I have no feel for this. I have none. Absolutely none. I don't even know what I'm ready for, let alone another person. But as always, I, you know, admire your ability to engage with the public on how our consumption habits change over time. And, yeah.

You know, maybe we'll, should we do a rewatch together? It's been a minute since I've seen that. Yeah, maybe. That would be really fun. There's actually some, a lot of music in the Bakshi movies. Maybe I'll rewatch it before next week. Okay. There you go. Sounds like, sounds like homework.

A fun fact that we learned that we thought we would share with you is that the actor who plays Lord Belzegar, my new favorite Numenorean, Will Keane, who Mallory Rubin was like when we when she brought up his name, she was like he was in his dark materials. And so I I was like, oh, let's remind myself like what he was like in his dark materials. So I was like looking him up and they were like father of Daphne Keane. Daphne Keane.

What? She of Deadpool Wolverine fame. She of Acolyte fame. She of His Dark Materials fame. Yeah, Lyra herself. I had no idea. Lord Belzagar. This is a shock to me. Will Keen is Daphne Keen's dad. And today we learned. So just keep that in mind as you join me in cheering on our new favorite Numenorean. Okay. Rooting for you, rooting for Belz. This is great. Belz and Bees, my entire brand. Okay. Um...

We also got a recommendation. I think I mentioned this last week, but a recommendation from a listener to check out the Bear McCreary website for a lot of additional sort of insight into the music used in the show. And that just might be something you want to check out before we do our music episode next week. We certainly will be looking at it in as we prep for that.

And then last but not least, Nicole asked very politely that we use our platform to encourage Amazon to be a little bit more mindful about where they insert their ad breaks in the show that they so desperately want people to watch on their own platform. She says sometimes it happens in the middle of something important. So, Nicole, there's me trying to help you with that. Okay, a long-expected party. Let's do the opening snapshots. ♪

This episode is called Eldest, written by Glenise Mullins, directed by Louise Hooper and Sanaa Hamri, two directors once again. We have a lot of questions about sort of what scenes have been moved around episode to episode in the front half of the season. Molly Rubin, why is this episode called Eldest?

Joanna, our good friend, Tom Bombadil is on the screen at last. He has made his way to a rings adaptation. And he is, as we heard in the opening quote today, the opening clip, eldest, eldest around for a minute. Yeah.

I'm so excited to talk to you about Tom. This is a big moment for Rings fans. I can't wait to catch up on what our pal Dave Gonzalez thinks now that Tom Bombadil has arrived at last. Yeah. This is a big week. The world's number one Bombadil fan. I hope he enjoyed the yellow boots. Okay. Tom Bombadil is known as the eldest in Sindarin. His name is Erwain Ben Adar. Adar. Might sound familiar to you. That's father. He's eldest and fatherless. Okay.

But A.R. Wayne, if I'm pronouncing that correctly, is also what he calls the little lamb in his desert cottage that we see in this episode. And I have a lot of thoughts about that. Why his lamb has the same name that he has. Melanie, any lamb thoughts you want to share with the crowd?

Too close to the fire. The inferno can spark at any point, as we saw. And, you know, a nurturing cradle and cuddle. That was nice. But let's let's get that darling lamb away from the open flame. Thank you. Well, thank you. Which you can only save one lamb. Is it the darling little white cuddly lamb by the fire in Tom Bombadil's cottage? Or is it Gary Oldman's Jackson lamb on slow horses?

As you know, I believe that Jackson Lamb is the most important character on television. I don't want you to actually get me to say out loud on a podcast that I want that sweet little lamb to like burn alive. I mean, listen, it's called a sacrificial lamb for a reason. Okay. Also old. Another character in Tolkien that's referred to as the oldest character.

Not eldest is Treebeard, the most famous Ent. And we've got Ents in this episode too. So this episode is like full of the sort of elder statesmen of Middle Earth who are here to talk about what it was like before we came and ruined it. Something I really love about this episode...

is the section of Fellowship of the Ring. And by the way, if you've never read the book, you spent an awful long time in and around the Shire, you know, before we even get to like Rivendell, say. And Peter Jackson cut a lot of that out of his movies. And we will talk about that, like how that affects the Tom Bombadil fans, et cetera, et cetera. But in the book, in the section of Fellowship, where Tom Bombadil appears is,

It is also the section with the Barrow Whites and the Barrow Downs, which is what Galadriel and our guy Elrond with his new beautiful hair and all the other elves are dealing with this week. And the section where Sam first talks about moving trees. That's to lead us into this Old Man Willow section that we'll talk about. But it's also sort of like an NT preview. So I love that...

Even though it's across multiple storylines, it kind of took a lot of the elements of this section of the book and spread it out across the episode. I thought that was really neat. Absolutely. Same. Agreed. So, Molly Rubin, did you like this episode of television? I did. Yeah. I had an interesting experience with this episode where watching it for the first time...

I personally was quite charmed. I thought the... Spoiler, we're going to talk about it for a long time, but I thought the Tom Bombadil introduction was exquisite. I have A note, and you have A note, and they're the same note, but... We have one singular note. Yeah, broadly, I thought it was spectacular, and I was...

not only wrapped watching those scenes between Tom and the stranger, but I was happy. Like I was just happy as a Lord of the Rings fan to be seeing it. That was fantastic.

I could do the entire pot today on Elrond's hair if you wanted to. I would be fine with that. There was a lot to love. And I think the themes, the connection to the past, the deep-rooted history, and the way that we think about peace and peace.

and promises and protection and nourishment and nurturing. I thought all of that was just lovely and felt like very core to me as a rings fan. So I was charmed. There was a little like voice in my head watching it. Two things. One, no doors. I wonder what. Yeah. Yes. I wonder, I wonder like if this is going to be for everyone, not that it has to be right. But I, I do imagine that there will be a contingent of the viewership. That's like,

Okay, this episode actually collected a lot of the things that I'm less high on in maybe A Ring's Tale. You know, the like, I don't want the Ents crowd, which I am not a member of that crowd for what it's worth. But the other thing, of course, was the specific character sets present or absent from the episode. This episode did not feature Sauron of Yordlefor.

which is a bold choice at this point in the story. I think, you know, what Charlie Vickers is doing as Halbrand, as Sauron, as Annatar is...

consistently successful. And so to, and we're not like in, it's we're in week two, but we're not in week two. Not really. It's the midway point of the season. So I was like, Oh boy, no Sauron. Okay. No Celebrimbor relatedly. Of course, no Durin, no Durin, no Disa, no Elendil, no Muriel, no Farazan. Like we have a seal door, but we're not up in Numenor. So a lot of the key stakeholders and drivers of the story and places on the map were absent because

What we got in instead, we have a concentration of a certain type of energy and like quirk and charm that I enjoy, though, candidly with that, I think a little more in the back half of the episode of the Theo Arandir episode.

part of the plot, then I would... I don't know that I would make that trade for some of the characters who were missing. Correct. But then I rewatched. So I was thinking about all that after. And then I sat down to rewatch it and I'm like, oh, he's missing characters. And I was pretty charmed again watching it again. So there's a lot here that I loved and a lot here that I'm really excited to talk to you about today. Tom, obviously...

high on the list. I await your Barrow-White's thoughts. We get to hear about the Shire in this episode of Rings of Power. I mean, there's a lot to get to. The Shire comes up kind of twice, which is exciting. Yeah, what about you? Um,

I kind of agree. I would just add this, that this is like a very spectacle-heavy episode, right? We get like the Ents is like this massive CGI spectacle. The Barrow-Whites are a huge CGI spectacle. We get a mudworm. You know, there's just like a lot going on. And, you know, like Galadriel gets two different battle scenes. I thought her final fight with the orcs was...

a lot cooler than some of the Barrow-White stuff. But, like, you know, so it's like... And I think...

I agree that Charlie Vickers is always successful as Sauron and we're locked and dialed in on our guy, Celebrimbor, this season. But I also think that those scenes, which are often conversations in rooms or if you're dwarves, conversation in caverns, might actually not be what the gen pop wants and maybe they want giant talking trees and that sort of stuff. And I know that there was a critique. I mean, if the

If the three-episode at the beginning drop was because they were worried about the criticism of, like, this show takes a while to get going, it's a little ponderous, which is some of the critiques of season one, they drop that three-episode chunk, and then they give us this, like, really action-packed episode four...

You know, that feels slightly calculated to me. Something that J.D. Payne, one of the showrunners said sort of leading up to the premiere was he was talking about all the critters this season, right? And he says, one of the things we felt we could do more after season one was critters. That was one of our earliest conversations. We want to get something in every episode. So for County at Home, we've had giant spiders, giant eagles, barrel whites, the gowdrim, the entz, a sea worm,

Sauron goop and a hill troll. So yeah, there's, this is, you know, Mallory always likes to say like, don't be afraid to make your fantasy story, a fantasy story. And this is, they're not afraid. And I, I still think it's a very, we got an email from listener that I didn't pull up, but they were like, my kid was out on goop, goop Sauron scared them too much. And they were out. And I was like, well, it gets,

A lot more. That kid's not a fan of the Venom franchise, we learned just now. Apparently not. No yearning tendrils of goop for that kid. So this show still feels like, you know, the Barrow-Wights are scary. So, you know, I just hope kids are still enjoying the show. I want this for them. Okay. Ring one. Helms deep. A deep dive into season two, episode four. Let's go.

It's tempting to start with Tom Bombadil. Like, I kind of want to. I loved Rory Kinnear as Tom Bombadil. I'm really excited to talk about that. But we're going to start with, is Galadriel here? Galadriel, Elrond, and some zombies, a.k.a. Barrow-whites.

Um, this is the, this is the envoy from Linden. Cause again, they do not send Ravens and, and some messages went missing. They're sending a, a more heavily armored envoy with two of their most famous elves from Linden to Oregon to get the news to kill Brimbor that like, Hey, I don't care how hard it's raining or how sexy his wounded back looks. Do not invite Ravens.

into your house because he is Sauron. So that's... Too late. It's a little too late. But they're making haste, right? They're running over hill, over dale to try to get there. And to get to Eregion from Linden, if you look at the map, you essentially have to go through the Shire, which is just really fun to think about. These elves running through the Shire through the undug...

grassy knolls of the Shire. Yeah. I continue to love, too, this treatment of, like, pulling and porting us in and out of the map and the footage. Yes. Yeah, yeah. To, like, very seamlessly show us exactly where we are, including right down to, like, incorporating an effect, like, the effect of the bridge onto the map as we then find ourselves on the bridge. I think that's just a really cool... Obviously, a lot of, like, work is going into executing that, but to us as viewers, it just feels...

it feels seamlessly entwined and I'm really enjoying that. Committer Elrond was like, guys, don't worry about it. It's only 150 leagues if we get across this one bridge. And oops, that bridge has been supernaturally destroyed. And that forces them to go on the same path that Sam, Frodo, Merry, and Pippin take through the old forest and through the Barrow Downs. And what's fun is if you reread that section of the book, it's,

uh, the hobbits themselves were sort of supernaturally put upon paths in that section. The paths keep winding them back around in a certain direction and they keep getting sort of lost and turned around because the, the road wants them to go, uh, a specific place. And in that case, it seems to be Tom Bombadil sort of guiding them to his, uh, front doorstep. Um,

In this case, it's Sauron being like, stay out. I got a whole Khan seduction job going on in Regian and I can't have you messing with my vibe. So, yeah. But I will leave that very distinctive scroll casing on the ground for everyone to discover. That's why you don't outsource the Barrow-whites. Don't do, like, you know, sometimes

You gotta do the job yourself. And I wouldn't, it's a great note. I wouldn't trust the barrel whites to do it for me. So, yeah, I love the, the observation there about the, uh, the hobbits and the road and the, the guiding hand, the forced hand. And obviously this is like a recurrence across character sets and slices of the timeline of the story. You know, we talked about this literally last deep dive, right? With Nori and Poppy and the stranger, uh,

I'd rather not like run out of water and then die going that way. But okay, well you have to. And of course we, we talked about how that reminded us of Saruman and the fellowship and will you choose a more dangerous road? And like, so this is as we've, we've found many a friend in this spot needing to decide, uh,

To go in a direction that something, maybe someone literally in their party, in this particular case, in their company is saying out loud or something inside of them is gnawing at them. Like I know danger awaits, but it feels like there's no other option. And then that connects like in a fun way to this larger thing we like to talk about in these stories. Like what is your choice? When is your hand forced? When is fate guiding you? So very, very, very fun way to begin here. It's also like a really fun theme in the, in the,

The Hobbit itself, there and back again, they take... This is not their planned route at all. They are often thrown off their planned route in that story. And they're often thrown off their planned route into something that they needed along their way. So I love that. I do love that Galadriel's like any person who's freshly broken up with someone. She's like, my shitty ex-boyfriend did this. I know it. I know he burned this bridge. I know he...

Called these zombies and told them to come attack us. I know it. I know it's him. I can smell it. No earthly force could do this. Only the force that looked at me from the raft with those eyes and that slightly open shirt. And yeah, it's just, this is an amazing thing to watch. There were so, I loved thinking about, okay, is Elrond familiar with Gendry's like sprint time in Game of Thrones and then just

thinking about this with Galadriel right away at the beginning of this episode. There were so many little connections. Not the last time we'll be asking if Elrond has watched a certain pop culture property that we're fond of. Very true. Very true. I do want to say we meet a new elf. We meet several new, four new elves in this episode and say goodbye to one right away. But we meet a cartographer elf.

who's called Camnir. He's played by Callum Lynch, who I really, really liked in season two of Bridgerton, but I sent a photo of him to Mallory immediately being like, I'm going to have to talk about this wig. Anyway, I,

The way he describes his character, he says, quote, a bookish mapmaker elf. He's really not cut out for battle. Everyone else has got cool swords and I've got maps. And I just I'm like, oh, it's me. There we are. Wonderful. Wonderful. Wonderful. As you know, I'm very fond of collecting swords and other replica weaponry from people.

Various fantasy stories. And so I can't really claim that I would not want to have a sword in this company, but I can agree with you that I would not be equipped to wield one. No, better a map than a sword for me. Okay. Galadriel gets a sneaky peek of the wights, right, from Nenya, and she's like, I don't want to go that way. And Elrond's like, tough, I'm not listening to your spooky ring that your shitty ex-boyfriend convinced you to make. Okay. Then we go to Beryl. I loved the...

opinion heard like the curtness yes opinion heard it made me feel for a minute like they were in the kitchen and in the bear and the kids like oh no like it just was like it was like they were like carmy and like richie like yelling at each other like it was just there was something about the the very brisk nature of opinion heard that was like i'm waiting for someone to shout hands right after and like pass a dish forward it was just delightful

Fire the fillets. Firing fillets. Okay. So, The Barrow Downs. Yeah. This was scary, Joanna. It's very scary. This is a very scary section of the book as well. And I just want to describe part of... I'm tempted to read the whole, but I won't. I won't read the whole passage. It's just all very good.

Um, but I will read this part of the description of the Barrow Downs and Fellowship. Uh, very importantly, you know, basically these old kings slept under the hills for a very long time until a shadow came out of dark places far away and the bones were stirred in the mounds. Um,

Barrow-whites walked in the hollow places with a clink of rings on cold fingers and gold chains in the wind. Stone rings grinned out of the ground like broken teeth in the moonlight. The hobbit shuddered. Even in the shower, the rumor of the barrow-whites, of the barrow-downs beyond the forest had been heard. But it was not a tale any hobbit liked to listen to, even by a comfortable fireside far away."

spooky but I like this idea that like if you're if you're close reading the text here and you're JD and Patrick in the writer's room you could be like a shadow came out of a dark place is far away and the bones are still in the mound like we could we could make an argument that Sauron is the one who like just woke the barrow whites up like they were sleeping and then he's like I'm gonna need some mischief on the road from Linden to Eregion so let's

raise some dead kings and see what they can do with chains. Does that sound accurate to you? Yeah, this is fun too because this was kind of one of the things we were wondering about last week and speculating, okay, what? Who had the chains? Who had the chains, but then also more broadly how that kind of sparked the question of

what reach does Sauron have? What level of awareness? We have things that make us believe he has awareness of what is unfolding, what level of control. And like, it's interesting to me that we as viewers at home are thinking about that and asking that. And then of course, like you noted in the scene for a character like Galadriel, it's of course, this is him. Of course. Obviously. My ex did this. How? He would. Yeah.

I mean, sorry. It's great stuff. Great stuff. There's also the design of them read very Pirates of the Caribbean zombie pirates to me. Yeah. But...

The description in the book, this is Frodo encountering them, right? So they got the little lights in the eyes and all that sort of stuff like that and the clinking of the rings and, you know, the...

When Tom Bombadil makes easy work of the Barrow-Whites, he just takes a bunch of treasure, certainly a brooch for Goldberry. So I think they needed to be kind of blinged out so that later Tom Bombadil could just pick their pockets, essentially. Yeah. I thought overall, in terms of the...

the kind of unsettling effect of this scene. I thought the dark, the very dark for our setting, the mist, obviously the, the, the whispers that are coming from, you know, or it was almost like a song or the mist.

memory of a song. That description was so spooky and creepy. Obviously, what we're hearing, the whites whisper, which we'll talk about in a second, the circling up, the prepare yourselves, all of that was like, my heart was pumping watching that. It was scary. And I will say, I thought the whites looked

Like, not great. Like, I didn't... Once they arrived, then it took me out of it a little bit because...

Something felt... And I weirdly didn't feel that way seeing them in the trailer. It's usually the opposite. Usually you see something out of context in the trailer and you're like, eh. And then you see it in the full flow of the episode. I bumped on how they were rendered a little bit. I think part of it is the action felt a little weird and clumsy. I know it's not... Because some of the cast members who play acolytes, etc., are listed also as Barrow-Wights. So they got some of their... People in...

mocap reference suits, at least on these barrel whites. I thought the action here was like a little funky though. Like, you know, maybe it would be against a skeleton that can reform itself, especially when compared to Galadriel versus the orc at the end of the episode, which is sick, you know? So, um,

That was part of it. The barrel white incantation from the book is word for word lifted, right? Cold be hand and heart and bone and cold be sleep under stone. Never more to wake on stony bed. Never till the sun fails and the mood is dead. It's probably moon. I don't know why it says mood there. In the black wind, the stars shall die and still on gold here let them lie.

So they, like Galadriel, are thinking about Sauron all the time. So, you know. And like Ashen. How could you not? Sigh.

How could you not? You're either thinking about Sauron or you're thinking about, you know, what if the show had Netflix subtitles? And it's like the thrill of my life to tell you that when the first member of the company fell, you know, when we're watching on screeners, we don't have subtitles. So I did a little, you know, a little Netflix reference for one of our favorite bits. Flesh recedes wetly, not descending. It's receding at that point. Then I checked on the actual subtitles after the episode dropped. Crunching and squelching. Yeah.

You love to see it. Does it say crunching or crunching? Because I wrote crunching in my notes. You're very close with just your personal description of this. Daymor is the name of the elf that goes down, and I...

will forever be mad that it's him and not Vorheel who was like, dead men are no threat. That guy is the one who should have gone down into a barrow. We hear this crunching sound and it's good that we hear the crunch because otherwise I'd have to go after him into the barrow because the hobbits survived going down into the barrow. So like, I was like, they're not just going to leave him there. And then we hear a crunch and I'm like, okay, it's, it's over. Curtains for Tamor. Okay. Um,

We get this Avengers Battle of New York spinny camera circle up moment that was in every trailer that happens. And then what does our guy Elrond do? Glad you was in action, babe. What does Elrond do, Mallory Rubin? Joe, Elrond, this is a fascinating episode for our guy Elrond with the wonderful flowing locks and the beautiful curls. Are we ready to talk about his hair yet? No, save it for later during the chat. Okay, fine, if you insist. I would like to shout out that Elrond

So they fetched the weapons from the tomb just in time, right? And he says, according to lore, this time after the Hall of Law fiasco of season one, I was prepared to identify, even though Elrond was not involved in that, the word lore. And I would just like to say, Elrond's saying, according to law, and then continuing to explain a thing, only the blades with which they were buried will return such creatures to rest.

I'd like to invite Elrond formally on House of R. Oh, this is a real deep dive podcast. Yes. He's like, I'm prepared to like say from the text and tell you about the canon. I have some thoughts on the mythology. I just Elrond ready to pod.

He says, hold fast. And we both wrote in our notes, Perseus, because it was one of our favorite lines from Percy Jackson. There is some textual evidence for like only their own weapons will, if you squint. I believe Elrond. I will always believe Elrond. I wanted to say that when Tom Bombadil saves the hobbits from the Barrow-Whites,

There is this very important passage that gives us a glimpse of that description of the Undying Lands that we love that we hear in the Peter Jackson films in the book, right? So Frodo is waiting for rescue, right? And then he hears, quote, sweet singing running in his mind, a song that seemed to come like a pale light behind a gray rain curtain and growing stronger to turn the veil all to glass and silver until at last it was rolled back

and a far green country open before him under a swift sunrise. Suddenly light streamed in, real light, the plain light of day. So obviously there's like a couple things we love. We love talking about the far green country. We love light coming in to banish things

the darkness, the shadows. And we love a song and we'll come back to that. But I love that like it was a song in his mind and a thought of the undying lands and then a real light comes in and rescues Frodo from certain death. Absolutely.

Beautiful. Love that passage. Gorgeous. What did you make of... So we get this little funeral for Daemor's sword. Yep. Great looking sword. The elves are standing in tableau around it and then we get this Galadriel-Elrond exchange. What did you make of this? This is where I was most struck by his hair. Okay.

I actually think you should, you should, there's no limit. I'm not going to accolade limit you on this. You can talk about Elrond's hair as much as you want in this episode. Thank you. I think it's like, it's adjacent enough to a passion of yours, wig watch, that it's, it feels permissible. Yeah. In a way that, I think 800 times per pod, frankly didn't though. You would think you, a lover of musicals would have, oh,

I would have had a high tolerance for that, too. Even I have my limits, I suppose. Yeah, okay. I'll take that under advisement, something I'll reflect on before our musical episode next week. So...

This was one of the trailer lines. We get to see this scene play out. Galadriel goes over to Elrond. Elrond is not participating in the funeral. He's thinking about how he's going to get this mission going. He's surely standing there like, my hair's gotten really long. A lot of time has passed. We've probably fucked this up already. But Galadriel says to him, I know you believe the ring is deceiving me, but I believe it is

guiding me and that following it may be our only path to victory you said earlier that the like this had to be saran had real like ex-boyfriend vibes this reminded me of like defending your shitty boyfriend to your friends who hate him and don't trust him like that's like i know you think but um

And like, I also thought that just this in general, we talked about this last week, like this connects to very, very palpably across characters, this Lord of the Rings tradition, putting aside anything about the future of Nenya or even the three Elven rings, just this familiar note of don't put your fears to rest. I'll use it for good.

I'll make sure it's okay. I'll be able to navigate. I'm not like other girls. Oh, man. And Elrond's basically like, is there no point at which the cost of victory becomes too great? Now, at the end of the episode, these two are separated. I'm excited to talk about the parting shot that we hear from Elrond, which I thought was a savage evisceration. And it made me wonder about the state of their relationship moving forward. But like,

You know, every exchange between them so far, again, halfway through the season, is about, in essence, this thing. Either the threat of Sauron, the pull of the ring, the risk of the ring, what it means to succumb to it. And so...

Galadriel saying, like, I've yet to reach that point. Like, that's not the dominant concern for me. And he's like, how does that not terrify you? Which I thought was really interesting. And her reply, of course, is because the suffering of the world ruled by Sauron terrifies me more. So you're weighing evil at that point. You're weighing and assessing the comparative threat level of a given course, and that is part of how you justify it. And Sauron

speaking of justifying things to ourself, that leads to what, Jo, to Elrond talking about his father. Okay. Elrond and his daddy issues are back again. Back in the habit, you know? If we're not talking about Elrond's dad, what are we even doing here? Um,

So, you know, his dad, who, as you recall, was turned into a star because he was so great and wonderful. And Elrond has to forever live underneath the shadow of his dad, who's a star, and his mom is a bird, and it's a lot. Okay. So...

In season one, Caleb Brimmore told Elrond, quote, I was there, Elrond, the night your father set sail, a mortal man who believed he could convince the very gods to come to war in our aid. I heard your mother pleading with him not to go, asking him, imploring him, why, why must it be him? And do you know what he said? Because he was the only one who could do it.

And Elrond here says, you know, my father once said that I would have Celebrimbor's life in my hands. This idea of like, I'm the only one who could do it. I think Galadriel believes that about herself. I think Elrond believes that about himself in the context of this. When the whole thrust of the story that we're watching is pushing towards fellowship, is pushing away from only I can do this. Right. What do you want to say about that? Yeah. And especially inside of that relationship, right?

where there's a history and a closeness and promises made time and again to each other.

to see though, I think there are a few different pairings who have like a deeply rooted affection for each other and who have like been put through some sort of test or trial together previously where you would feel the same effect, but they're a great choice for it because like the fact that they're not able to like the thing that they each believe so staunchly and firmly is true and right. That like,

myopia and individual certainty is then the blocker to the fellowship between them. Even just like, you know, the little kind of like, uh, Lieutenant and like, again, like, you know, I heard you and she's like, well, yeah, like, I guess I could get like that.

Archer that you want, but like, what if you listen to what I had to say about which way we should be going? It's just they're not in sync at all. And that's part of what makes the parting that's to come so damning because you have this like discussion about, again, like a

like a promise. What will you do or won't you do? What am I asking you to do or not do? An oath. We know how Elrond feels about those. Also, we know how Stark felt about those. We should remind folks because we did get an email from a listener, Matt, who was like, hey, did you know that Elrond doesn't really care for oaths? And I was like, oh yeah, we talked about that a lot last season, but maybe we need a little refresher, which is that in the Council of Elrond scene in Fellowship of the Ring, in the book, he...

forbids anyone to take an oath regarding the quest to destroy the ring. So Elrond at some point in his life is like, oaths, bad. Don't like them. I'm not for them. That's not the way. Here, I would say, he's like, I'm not swearing anything on that goddamn ring, that trinket. I hate it. But I promise you, I will put Sauron first over you. I believe this is a very classic...

promise we're about to see broken in the next four episodes. Like, clearly. Yeah, it had real, like... I mean, of course, given the actor, it makes us think of Promise Me Ned. How could it not? But, like, it had real, like, Gamora and Peter Quill vibes to me. 100%. Great call. Yeah. And, like... You promised! Yeah. You promised! Told you to go right! But, like...

I, I, I, that's what I loved about that moment because I agree. It's like, it's difficult for us to believe that Elrond will like stay firm and like follow through on that. And frankly, it wouldn't be the first time in the span of this show that he's told Galadriel something and then not done it. But, but,

There was something withering about the way he said, like, even though he's like, I make no promise. I will make no promise. Who's who's asking is born of the ring. But I swear to you, defeating Sauron will come first, even before you like it didn't. I think kind of is trying to be like, here's a comfort and all assuage your your anxiety and your worry. But it just to me is like,

kind of like hilariously awkward and weird as this like moment between these dear friends who are totally out of sync and off kilter with each other. And it's like, like, like,

sure, I'll kill you. Like, if it comes to it, sure, I'll kill you. No problem, Galadriel. I'm sure it'll come to that. Okay. Galadriel, we should say, she gets a ring vision. We get some ring powers in this episode, right? We'll talk about the other ring power unlocked that we get here. But, you know, we had a listener say like, hey, when are they going to show us specific ring powers? Here's some stuff, right? So ring vision, we get Morgoth's crown being grabbed by

either Sauron or Adar, but some sleeve sleuthing points to Adar. Elrond at sword point, Eregion in ruins, a filthy, bloody Celebrimbor hitting the ground, not having a good day. Brutal. Sauron, who is Annatar, but now looks suspiciously like Halbrin in evil prince drag, looking down at a blonde head.

of hair galadriel merdonia tune in to find out um but that's that's what glad that's what galadriel sees

Yeah, she's kind of pulled out of it by Elrond saying her name, but because we're looking at Halbrand, it feels like he's saying her name for a second. So that was a little genius bit of editing. My only question about whether that's Adar is, I think we typically see him with gloves or his hands covered, and those were beautifully manicured hands. Okay, I was looking at the hands to see if they were pale and veiny enough, and I wasn't convinced, but then I think the detailing on the cuff

matches the cuff of the armor that he's wearing. It's not his usual armor, but the armor that he's wearing when he encounters Galadriel at the end of this episode. But I'm... Yeah. You could easily convince me that that is Halbran's

It just didn't seem to match the like dark prince costume that he's wearing. Anyway, I am nothing if not a sleeve sleuth. I'll have to get a look at more parts of Adar's body to see if like every inch of his skin looks like curdled milk or just his face. We'll await more insights. I hope this is an assignment that you will relish. I will. So here we go.

drums not sounding in the deep but uh in the forest it's an uruk party and the uruks love a drum and they march past elrana galadriel on their way to a regian um and a group of them attacking a horse and mallory gets pissed off because why are they trying to attack this poor horse uh discover the elves by accident when poor nerdy camnir our map elf who is not built for combat

is wounded, and we get a ring power unlocked because Galadriel heals Kemnir with Nenya. She just goes full Grogu here and does a force healing with grief Kargassin, and it was wild. Incredible reaction by everybody because there's awe among members of the company. How could there not be? Yeah. But then terror, certainly, for...

Elrond and like, I like this idea of the, the skeptical members, Elrond or otherwise witnessing the, the capability of the ring. And like, how could you not then be tempted to use that for good? How could you not feel on some level what Galadriel is feeling? It brings this elf. We were definitely emotionally attached to because we literally just bet him in this episode, but it brings him back from seemingly certain death. And, um,

what could possibly go wrong? I mean, all Sauron wants to do is heal Middle-earth. So, you know, that's the healing power of Nenya. Galadriel gives the ring to Elrond, says she'll hold off the orcs as long as she can. And then Elrond cuts in with what, Mallory? So, wig guy, Kamner, map guy.

It's like she sacrificed herself to save us all. Holy shit. Sick. I'm going to go back and tell everyone what Galadriel did. This is like, I just can't wait to tweet about it. Can't wait to talk about it. What a woman. Incredible. Elrond, coldly, brutally, but I think with real clarity. And excellent curls. And hair that looks fucking flowing beautifully and looks great. Yeah. Said,

She says she did not do it to save us. She did it to save the ring. And this was the first time where I wondered if these two were going to be okay. And like, we're going to be able to work through this because that is an indictment of something that feels deeper than, um,

Don't be tempted. Don't allow yourself to be drawn in. That's a you're already lost. That's a you think this is the only thing, the most important thing. And we're going to talk a lot this episode, this season about sacrifice, but

But that's not at a certain point. That's not sacrifice. If the thing that you're doing it to protect is something that has trumped the meaning of everything else for you. Right. That has subsumed the kind of thing you would have protected before. And so like with the healing, like coming on, you know, in the heels of the healing and witnessing that new power.

That it made me think also of like our conversation from the mailbag pod a couple of days ago about control. Right. And possession because like, yeah, there's something incredible about that. Amazing. And you would want to be able to heal and preserve. But yes. Yeah. Like this is just like Sith stuff, or at least it can be like if you think you can control life and death. Right.

Have we lost you? And this is clearly what's going through all around his mind here. To zoom back really quickly to what you said, which was like, this new thing has trumped all other things that are important to you. Something we forgot to shout out, though I think I did have it in the notes, but I forgot to say it, was that

The Bling King himself, Gil-galad, has taken all other rings off his finger, and he only wears his ring of power now. And when Galadriel, you know, is talking about it, there's just a shot of his hands, and he folds the non-ring hand, like, over his ringed hand. So, like, we're calling attention to the fact that, like, Gil-galad has dropped all of his other rings off.

Just wearing that one ring, this is fine. Everything's fine, guys. It's totally fine. So Galadriel, whether she is protecting her fellow elves or the ring, does her very best impression of Gandalf staring down the Balrog when she tells them to go back to the shadow, which in this case is literally Mordor under shadow. Um...

And then she gets unceremonious. She does some really sick, cool fight moves. I absolutely loved this. It was awesome. It made my lower back hurt so much watching it. I was physically in pain. I was just imagining trying to move like that in any respect for even a moment. But the throwing of the lantern and the hitting it with the arrow and all that stuff, I thought that was really cool. Yeah.

Then she gets yanked off her horse right into the clutches of who? Mallory's boyfriend, Adar. There he is. Adar. I missed him. Yeah. He looks great. He uses a very familiar elvish greeting, right? He says, a star shines on the hour of our meeting. It's something that Frodo says in the book. It's something that is so important to Tolkien fans that they get it tattooed on their bodies. And, um...

Here's a letter. And it's like so important to Tolkien that in this letter to his son in 1958, he says, perhaps jokingly, it's the whole reason why he wrote the books.

He wrote to Christopher, nobody believes me when I say that my long book is an attempt to create a world in which a form of language agreeable to my personal aesthetic might seem real. But it is true. An inquirer, among many, asked what the Lord of the Rings was about and whether it was an allegory. And I said it was an effort to create a situation in which a common greeting would be

a star shines on the hour of our meeting and that the, the phrase long antedated the book. I had never heard anymore, but I enjoyed myself immensely and retired to bed really happy. So Tolkien's like, don't bring this allegory question to me. And,

He hates the allegory question so much, it comes up in another letter in the outline today. He is forever saying, please don't say allegory to me. He's like, here's why I wrote the book. I wrote it so my tortured poetic brain could just introduce beautiful, you know, musical, lyrical snatches of dialogue to people that they will then get tattooed on their bodies in the future. And that is what he has done. And so you can go to bed really happy.

I mean, I enjoyed myself immensely and retired a bed really happy. This is just like, this is gold stuff. My goodness. The professor. I love that Adar says here, says it here because like not every, I mean, there's a lot of lifted dialogue from the books from other characters into other characters' mouths in this episode. And sometimes it can get too much. I don't think it like tipped all the way over the edge to me in this episode, but it's

I really love Adar's use of it here because it really feels like a very elegant and elvish way for Adar to greet Galadriel and just like a twist of the knife to remind her that they have a shared ancestry. That she's like, you're a monster. You're an abomination. The Oruks are monsters and all that stuff like that. He's like, we're not so different, you and I. Right. I know your poetic greetings. I speak it fluently. I mean...

maiden mockery. Like, your kind was a mistake. Yeah. Even if it takes me all of this age, I've had to eradicate every last one of you. Like, they're going to have some work, stuff to work through, these two. But I'm excited. I'm glad they're back together. I thought they were electric in season one, even though it was a different actor, but still. Mallory, quick, important question for you from our listener, Chelsea. Mm-hmm.

The email she wrote was just titled Daddy Addy, and she said a humble, epithetical offering for everyone's Mal's new crush, the OG father himself, Adar. Daddy Addy, are you into it? I like it. Yeah, I'm into it. I...

I might need to reassess hot daddy Elendil if we go with daddy Addy, but I'm willing to do that. It feels like, feels like we can come up with something new for Elendil when we see him again. It's Papa D for King Doran. It's a hot daddy Elendil for Elendil and daddy Addy for Adar. And that's, and that's the dad core from Mallory Rubin. Okay. Now we come, now we can talk about Tom Bombadil.

It's the stranger and it's only bloody Tom Bombadil. Let's start with the very basics because we don't know who's listening to this podcast. Are they like absolute Tolkien cooked nerds like us or are they just sort of like, hey, I just like this fun show and can you teach me some things? Okay. Who is Tom Bombadil? Happy to answer that. Except, oops, it's very complicated. He's old. He's the eldest. In fact, he's quite old. Strange guy.

A wife guy. Loves Goldberry. If there's nothing else you know about Tom Bombadil, I need you to know that he loves his wife, the Fair River daughter. He lives in the Withywindle Valley in Lord of the Rings, saves Frodo and the other hobbits twice, not to mention the ponies, in the span of two chapters.

And this is what they say about the valley where Tom Bombadil lives is, quote, said to be the queerest part of the whole wood, the center from which all the queerness comes as it were.

In a letter we'll come back to when we're discussing nameless things, we get to the Arandir mudworm thing. Tolkien once wrote, quote, even in a mythical age, there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Pompadil is one. Tolkien's like, guess what? We don't know. Is he, as Tolkien once described him, a spirit of the vanishing Oxford and Berkshire countryside that he was always lamenting? Yeah.

Based on the things that Tom Bombadil himself says in that opening clip you heard, he predates so many things that he is almost certainly one of the Aynar, a.k.a. the Holy Ones, which are the Valar and the Maiar. He's probably a Maiar, which is the same class as Gandalf and Sauron, just like an older one, one who was here first. Right.

There is a fun theory that Tom Bobadil is actually Eru, Tolkien's number one top god guy creator himself. In the book, when Frodo asks Tom's hot river daughter wife, Goldberry, who Tom is, she says he is. Yeah. Yeah. God in Exodus says to Moses, I am. So that's a reminder, Tolkien is...

Catholic. Okay. Yes. Yeah. If Tom Bombadil is God. Yes. And we have more on that later. But if he's God, he's a rather indifferent God and doesn't have the fate of the world in mind. He's more invested in gathering water lilies for his wife. So where do you have like a favorite theory about who Tom Bombadil is? So that that quote that you just shared from our gal.

heard warbling for just a moment in this episode. And what a warble it was. It was quite a warble. What a warble it was. Can I read that whole passage? Yeah, please. Because I think that's like such a, I love that passage. And it's a fun moment where like Frodo is, as is often the case, kind of our avatar, like seeking to learn and understand and discover. So it's from Fellowship. And he says, Fair lady, said Frodo again after a while. Tell me if my asking does not seem foolish. Who is Tom Bombadil?

"'He is,' said Goldberry, staying her swift movements and smiling. Frodo looked at her questioningly. "'He is as you have seen him,' she said in answer to his look. "'He is the master of wood, water, and hill.'

Which Tom will say. Yeah, idea from Tom expressed in this episode. Resuming the quote.

Tom Bombadil is the master. No one has ever caught old Tom walking in the forest, waiting in the water, leaping on the hilltops under light and shadow. He has no fear. Tom Bombadil is master. Like,

Yeah, of course people have spent decades speculating about whether he's God. I thought it was interesting that J.D. and Patrick addressed this directly in some of the press that they're doing around this introduction. Because again, genuinely, we're not overstating it at the top of the pod. This is something that fans of these stories have been waiting to see on screen for so long. Because Tom Bombadil is such a little weirdo who sings all the time and hops around...

Peter Jackson's like, not in my movies. So he's cut for the movies and I understand why. I do not think tonally he would have matched. Yeah.

but the book fans had been waiting. And so, yeah, JD and Patrick knew that this was like a big moment to use Tom Bombadil. So what did you want to say about that? Big Pete did a vibe check on Tom and sure. Like, yeah. So in, in their interview with THR on this question of, of is he God? Here's the quote. We would have no problem if that question was being asked, Payne says, because people say that about the character in the books, McKay adds. And I think people asked that of Tolkien himself, uh,

Tolkien chose to remain silent on it, and so shall we. So this gets to the other side of something that we talked about with our conversation about the power of the rings and how a show like this does afford you the opportunity to define that maybe with more specificity. Some things you don't need to define. Some questions you don't need to answer, and that's part of not only the joy and intrigue, like...

never-ending intrigue for fans to be able to discuss and wonder about and think about and consider. But I sense in that, especially them, like,

directly invoking Tolkien's stated stance that there's something here that feels like sacred and untouchable. And that there is like an honor, right? Of course, in bringing it to screen and adapting Tom. And I think something with a limit maybe to what you're going to actually then like spell out. Totally. And I think, again, we do have like one note on this depiction of Tom Bombadil, but are overall like absolutely delighted by it. But

That is something that we get from J.D. and Patrick again and again, is this sort of like reverence for Tolkien that I think, you know, a lot of people who maybe don't read their press or whatever sort of assumed in season one that these were a couple guys who didn't care, but they care very deeply about Tolkien. Do you have time in your day, Miley Rubin, for me to talk to you about the good word of Joseph Campbell's The Hero's Journey? Yeah.

I'd be thrilled. Unsurprisingly, I was eager to talk about this as well. Let's do it. Hit me. Great. So in The Fellowship and here, Tom Bobnall shows up right on the other side of the threshold into the wider world in the helper slash trials and failures step of Joseph Campbell's hero's journey.

The middle of a heroic journey is filled with trials, allies, and enemies. The hero faces challenges that improve their skills, meets and befriends strangers. The stranger, capital S, stranger, our guy, the stranger, is being tested from the second he steps foot on Tom's land. Though Tom would say he doesn't own the land, right? Okay. What's a good example of this kind of character in stories you know? Oh, maybe someone like Yoda. Ever heard of him? I'll be honest.

Who, while sitting at the war in his swamp, has a lot in common with old Tom Bombadil. Don't want to take my word for it?

I got a quote from Dave Filoni for you. Okay, this is what our guy Dave Filoni said about Tom Bombadil and his influence on like his own creations in the Star Wars world, right? Filoni said, nature itself can be very strong in the force. I took inspiration from those lessons as well as my love of Tolkien and characters like Tom Bombadil. Characters that are outside the primary story but will still influence the main characters. Who would a Tom Bombadil type character be in the Star Wars universe aside from Yoda? At one point...

But Bendu, and I'll let Mallory explain a little bit more for people who don't know, but Bendu was so big that I wanted the entire Rebel base to sit on his back. So this character Bendu that Dave Filoni creates is based on Tom, voiced by Tom Baker the best, based on Tom Bombadil. Mallory Rubin, what do you want to say about Bendu? Do you see that connection between Tom Bombadil and Bendu?

Certainly, yeah. I think, you know, Bendu, if you're interested in learning more about Bendu, check out Star Wars Rebels. It's great. You'll love it. Um...

I think basically the key thing to understand here is that Bendu is a figure who connects in an incredibly meaningful way to the Force and represents and reflects something about the Force and the nature of connection to the Force and is responsible for helping certain characters like our guy Kanan reshape

or redefine or rediscover their purpose. And so not only in terms of this, like difficult to define, like a being, a figure who feels like they exist, um,

in the context of maybe the force or, but not like any other parameter that you could wrap your arms around. There's something unknowable about Ben do. There's something unknowable about Tom Bombadil. And that's part of the point. And then also a character who then through that unique and distinct connection to the nature of existence itself is

Something someone who is above not above like in a like I'm loitering like lording over you, but exists beyond and outside of the minute to minute machinations of any one consideration exists.

there's tutelage and there is a mentorship and there is magic and a connection to the magic inside of you and how you are rooted in that meaning. So I definitely see this. I mean, one of the Bendu quotes that we like to talk about the most is like, that object cannot make you good, good or evil, right? Like it's, it's, it's you. And that feels like,

We literally talked about Bendu when we were talking about The Stranger in season one. So this is delightful now to think about while seeing The Stranger with Tom. I love it. Yeah, and the way in which The Stranger is separated from his friends, a la Luke and Empire. Luke goes to a swamp to learn the Force, right? That's a Yoda code, not a Bendu code. I do think that Yoda, the way that we...

encounter Tom just like on, you know, kneeling down, weeding his garden and just sort of like humming as he constantly is and tossing plants just feels very,

Yoda in the swamp coded to me. It reminded me of a lot of like an 80s fantasy classic. I think the labyrinth specifically where oftentimes our hero will just encounter a new creature, a new person in the midst of their own sort of story. Never you mind about you're on a journey or whatever. But so to your point about like this idea of mentorship, leadership,

It's possible that Tom Bombadil is also supposed to play this like mentor role because he ends his section here in the story.

with something of a call to action, which we can talk about when we get to it. This is like kind of our one note for Tom Bombadil, but like, I, you know, when we're talking about the hero's journey, the mentor call to action part usually comes before the trials and, and all of that. But, um, and I think that feels like very, like it fits very nicely here because you have, um,

Supernatural aid, you know, step three for Campbell, meeting with a mentor, step four for Vogler. It's in the departure phase, right? Like you're saying. We're doing that right after the hero dies.

Like the guide, the helper is emerging after the hero commits to the quest. And like, that's what the stranger did in the finale, commit to the quest. So that timing feels right to me. And then it's fun to think about how like, you know, the figure who was so often in the supernatural aid mentor role is like,

We would say as shorthand, like a wizard. Yeah, exactly. We would use Gandalf as one of the poster figures for this. And so the idea of a wizard being the one who needs that from another supernatural being is really interesting and cool to me. I like that a lot. Another thing that makes Tom Bombadil a really tricky character to adapt is if you're reading his chapters, I don't know,

For me, I always love, he speaks in verse, like he speaks in a meter. And once you like start to read him, you're just sort of like, and actually this last time that I was reading it, I kept hearing the like, da, da, da, da, da, like the tune of the song in my head against like the rhythm of his words. He's not speaking in iambic pentameter. He speaks in tracheic. And that's

that's a falling rhythm versus a rising rhythm. It's, it's hard to capture. Uh, they didn't really try to do it and that is okay. But I do think that the fact that Rory Kinnear is using this sort of like farmer regional UK accent, which is like the West country English, or it's an exaggerated version of a real accent. And so like, if you're in the UK, a term that they use is mummer set, which is just like, this is basically like an exaggerated, um,

but it's a very musical accent. And, you know, if you listen to Rory Kinnear, we'll hear another clip. But, you know, the way he draws out vowels, hits the hard R's, like all of that in the West Country English accent. A lot of people on my Twitter feed today were like, he sounds a lot like Hagrid. It literally didn't occur to me, but of course he does because Robbie Coltrane is also doing the West Country accent in Harry Potter. But this, it's an, and I love this choice of accent because, you know,

You know, if you're being shitty, you might use it as sort of like a... It's almost like a hick country bumpkin kind of accent a little bit sometimes in the UK. But it's like he's a humble guy. He's got connections to the earth. You know, he's a farmer. Like, I love this choice of accent here. What do you think? I totally agree. It feels...

He is supposed to be, in some respects, inaccessible and unknowable, but this is such an approachable, warm, and welcoming energy. And, like, I love, you know, because, of course, one of the first descriptions of Tom in the books is, like, really detailed description of his face. His apple cheeks.

Yeah, and then that look that we get, the way he turns, it really made me emotional. And then the way that he, because he is singing and whispering these little lines of song, but even when he's speaking, it's just so welcoming and lyrical and the flow of the language is, I don't have the musical ear knowledge that you do, but it just, you feel it, even if you don't maybe like,

have the knowledge to like intellectually break it down. I thought it was such a great choice. Such a great choice. Yeah. Like when he says something like there's what you're searching for and there's what you find isn't there, my accent's terrible. But like, you know, when he says that, there's just like something just very like musical about it. Um,

Then we get a sequence that is like ripped straight from Fellowship. In Fellowship, Mary Pippin, classic Mary Pippin, gets swallowed up by Old Man Willow. A tree swallows up Mary Pippin and Tom Bombadil comes and saves them. In this case, that's Old Man Willow. This is Old Man Ironwood. I guess it's a franchise. I guess there's old man trees all around Middle Earth.

I do like that there's a little willow tree in his garden, though. And so it's just a recreation of that moment when Tom... And to underline that beautiful Goldberry quote that you read about Tom Bombadil, he doesn't demand that the tree give over the stranger. He's coaxing. He's like wheedling. He's soothing. He's shushing. All of that. And using...

Some of the exact words from the book, eat earth, dig deep, drink water, go to sleep. You know, like it's just really, and not the only tree whisperer in this episode, but it's just like a really lovely sequence. And our guy was just trying to get himself a gant. He's just a guy looking for a gant and he thought he would rip a branch off a tree, but oops, it's a tree that can swallow you. So that's where we are. Welcome to Nata Yata.

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I loved this. I loved it. I loved the whispering. I loved the coaxing. You should not be waken. It's what we say to Halo when he's like, it's breakfast time. I'm like, it's 445, dude. You should not be waken. Oh, Tom. Wow, that's so funny. I wrote you should not be waken because I did not watch it with the captions on. So thank you so much for translating that for me. Book purists may be asking themselves.

What defining characteristic of Tom Bombadil is that he never leaves his valley? Not even when there's a major war and a scary ring and a dark lord. He's like, I'm happy here. I got my hot wife, Goldberry. We've got the water lilies to gather. That's what we're doing. What is he doing out in the desert of Rune? And this is something that Patrick and JD explained in the very first look at Tom Bombadil in an interview with my old colleague, Anthony Bresnikin at Vanity Fair.

So there's a star map on the ceiling of Tom's cottage to imply that Tom Bombadil has, quote, been watching the constellations for signs and for the stranger's arrival, thereby connecting Tom to a larger story. The showrunners mentioned that they have given him a second home besides Underhill.

which uses a summer cottage. So Tom Bobadilla summers in Rune on the outskirts of the once green and beautiful Rune, which now is a dead wasteland. At the time of the show, Bobadilla, quote, has gone out to Rune to see what's happened to the region in order to prevent the desolation from spreading westward. So...

This is a minor stretch, but I'm willing to go with it because I find his inclusion in the story here so delightful. Did you have any issues with Tom leaving his valley? I think I was... I'm okay with it because even though it is a departure...

the way that he spoke about Rune, both the dark wizard and the honey at my fire, like all the stuff we'll talk about more, but the way he talked about the passage of time

of time and the evolution of the place and what is happening, what is happening to the world. That felt true to the Tom that we know. I thought it was like heartbreaking listening to some of the things that he said, you know, in the eldest, you know, mark my word, friend, Tom was there before the river and the trees. Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He knew the dark under the scars when it was falling.

Stars when it was fearless. This whole place used to be green. Yeah. Like that's a beautiful writing. The simple language, this whole place used to be green. Yeah.

you just feel the loss of something so keenly, something that Tom would consider precious. This had a very Dune-like quality to me, as did other sequences in Rune when we make our way into the store village. It's like we've wandered into a Fremen siege. There were a lot of, okay, what did this place used to look like and what has it become? And then what does that make the people who inhabit it? So that felt very fitting to Tom and I was comfortable with him being here. I have some questions about

task that he sets and whether that's a thing Tom would do and whether that's what we want. But this part didn't really, I didn't bump on this. This idea of him like drawing, you know, the stranger's like, oh, I wasn't meant to find, again, I wasn't meant to find you. You know, Tom gives him a look and it's so it's this idea of him drawing the stranger to his doorstep, similar to the way, you know, the way he draws the hobbits to his doorstep. Yeah.

Like the hobbits who get a bath and like cozy slippers and a nice bed and a good meal in the house of Tom Bombadil. The stranger gets a bath.

We get the Goldberry cameo, which I loved this Goldberry cameo because like... Yeah, it was great. Do I believe that Tom Bombadil has a summer home in Rune? Maybe. Do I believe he would ever summer in Rune without Goldberry? Absolutely, I don't. So if you're not going to do Goldberry, you at least need to like imply that she's there and...

And it leads to, like, genuinely one of my favorite sequences of the entire episode. Steve, will you play this clip? Is somebody out there with you? I thought I heard a woman singing. Woman? What woman? Is no one else here with you? You're here? As I think you are. Are you? Yes.

It's just so it just like perfectly encapsulates the like befuddling experience of encountering Tom Bobadil because you're like, it's just like ghastly gatekeep girl boss Tom Bobadil. He's like, what woman? What are you talking about?

This was great. This was great. I have a, maybe I do have a second note. I have some notes on like where exactly, exactly where he threw that pretty chunky bar of soap. Um, hope, hope our guy, the strangers, uh, holding up. Okay. But this was great. This was great. Really great.

We had a beautiful long email from Ruth that I'm not going to read in its entirety, but it was in response to our question about the use of red wine in the first couple episodes as it pertains to Sauron's transformation. Because we get when he transforms from goop to halbrand, we get a dropped flask of wine on sort of the peddler's cart. Yeah.

And of course, R.I.P. Celebrimbor's first age bottle of red when he transforms into Annatar. And so Ruth brought up sort of the idea of the Holy Communion. There's a reason I'm talking about this here. The Holy Communion, you know, the drinking of the wine for the blood of Christ and transubstantiation and all of that and how that is connected to this idea. So like, I think that that is interesting, too.

especially when we think about both Tolkien as a Catholic telling this story and, you know, J.D. Pena, we talked about this in season one, but J.D. Pena is also like a religious person. I am not, but I think it is fair and just and wise to put sort of like Christian Catholic imagery in the story because that was important to Tolkien. So the fact that there's a little white lamb

Next to the fire here is, you know, and in Ruth's email, which she sent before she saw this episode, she is also talking about the lamb and the symbolism of Jesus came and lived a sinless life and became the, quote, pure lamb and therefore the permanent sacrifice that God allowed to happen in order to bring his creation back into communion with him. So, like, the idea of you often see oil paintings of Jesus holding the, you know, a white lamb. Like, it is very...

potent imagery that they popped in here. And the fact that the lamb also has his name is like just something to think about, I guess. Very interesting. We already talked about a lot of this other stuff, sort of like Tom talking about how old he is, all of that. Also this idea of control over nature that Tom is so like kind of affronted.

With this idea when the stranger asks. Well, and we're concerned. We're concerned too as viewers when we hear this, right? You wield power over trees, over wind and fire. You wield it as if it belongs to you. And he's like saying that with longing. Well, I mean, I'm maybe a little alarmed, but I'm less alarmed if I think about it in the context of he lost control of a storm and it blew his friends away. Sure.

So he's like, how do I control that? There's like, because he, because we would agree the stranger needs to learn how to control his magic. But control your magic versus control the environs around you. The world around you. And I think it's- And where's that tipping point? Right. It's certainly like a very important contrast to Sauron and that whole, you know, who might as well have like control tramp stamped on his body. Like that's his whole vibe this season. And especially like when we think about like even a guy we like like Círdan, like

Using his ring to make a fish jump out of the water and gasp upon the bank. And that's a sinister thing that we watched, a character that we do with his ring of power. And so Tom Bombadil would never exert that type of control or try to exert that type of control over nature. The trees and the grasses and all things growing or living in the land belong each to themselves. Right.

Mal, we learned a little staff lore. What do you want to say about the staff lore that we learned in this episode? This was a thrill and a joy and a delight. A very Mallory-coded moment, I think. Then might you teach me how to wield a staff? A wizard's staff is like a name. It's yours to wield already if you prove yourself worthy of it. So, of course, this makes us think of just last week when in the second episode, Nori and the stranger talked about names. No one can give you a name. It is yours already.

But of course it makes us think of Ollivander and Harry. How can it not? Curious indeed how these things happen. The wand chooses the wizard. Like this was so the wand chooses the wizard, quite literally the wand chooses the wizard, that it was very fun to think about. I was also thinking, you brought up Thor recently, and Thor was also on my mind in this stretch because when Tom says, you show today that you're not ready yet, right?

Whether you can become so, we shall soon discover.

And the stranger says, like, I wasn't meant to find a staff under these stars. I was meant to find you, wasn't I? Like, that had real Thor without his hammer needs to learn humility so that he could learn himself and, like, learn to appreciate humanity and then can wield his power. I was like, whosoever holds this gand, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Ian McKellen. It's just all of it.

That all felt like it was in the mix there. My mind was still stuck in the... In the wooden bathtub. My mind was still stuck in the swamp when I was thinking about Luke and Yoda. You know, in the exchange when Yoda...

much aggrieved sighs to the general force ghost that is Obi-Wan and says he is not ready. And Luke's like, Yoda, I'm ready. Ben, I can be a Jedi. Ben, tell him I'm ready. And then Yoda says, ready are you? What know you of ready? For 800 years have I trained Jedi, right? Tom Bobinall's like, you're not worthy yet. I've been here a long time. I still have some notes for Yoda on that. Oh, I eternally have notes for Yoda. Yeah.

Yoda, we have some notes. Then we get the Dark Wizard backstory, right? That, like, we get this idea that he, you know, the Dark Wizard came to Rune, like, walked the same path that the stranger is walking, came to Rune, sat by the fire with Tom Bombadil, ate a little honey, you know. I really think Tom Bombadil's top priorities are, like, number one, goldberry, number two, water lilies, number three, honey. Actually, he really loves some honeycomb. So this is an important thing that they shared. Thank you.

years ago there was another the dark wizard once he sought to control magic like you now he controls much of rune but he still hungers for more um and then he's like he needs an ally sauron if these two flames combine to one there will be no end to burning till all middle earth is ashes and then the stranger's like um can you stop it can you make that not happen

And Tom Pompadour says, old Tom's a wanderer, not a warrior. Great deeds are left to the hands they were placed in. Obviously, I'm thinking about Frodo and Gandalf in the moment. But anyway, Gandalf, this is classic Tom Pompadour. He's like, not my prob, actually. I'll tell you what's going on. It's not my problem. And...

there's this great moment in the council of Elrond when like, before they, they make the fellowship and they're, we mentioned this last week when we were talking about Círdan, Círdan comes up, Galadriel come up. They're thinking about all the most powerful people in middle earth who can help us with this ring problem. And then a bunch of them are like Tom fricking Bombadil, the eldest. And Gettl's like, let me tell you about Tom Bombadil. Okay. Let me tell you. He says, quote, he would not have come. Uh, and then they're like, the ring has no power room to him. Um,

He is his own master, but he cannot alter the ring itself nor break its power over others. And now he is withdrawn into a little land within bounds that he has set, though none can see them, waiting perhaps for a change of days, but he will not step beyond them.

So non-interventionist is Tom Bombadil's philosophy. And, you know, show Tom says, I shall gather water lilies while I let it grow, which is very gather ye rosebuds while you may. Like on the one hand, you're like, Tom, get involved, buddy. Come on. You're going to send four hobbits off to do this. You can't do this.

But on the other hand, there's something I really love about this idea of the eldest creature in Middle Earth being this energetic... They did not make Rory Kinnear hop and bound around, but a bouncy, bounding, singing, jubilant, joyous

kind of critter versus like the ancient weary creatures that we meet in a lot of other fantasies. I think always of Morla in The NeverEnding Story who's just like, we've been here so long, right? Tom Bobatil is just like,

Guess what? I'm focused on my house and my home, and you can come here and have a great meal. I will have the exact number of beds waiting for you as is in your party, and there will be honey by the fire for you. Some fresh bread. And there's magic in the twinkling lights in the window, a nice bath, a cozy slipper. It's a wife you dote on. This is domestic bliss. This is enlightenment. And I just love that about Tom Bombadil.

So good. Peace and joy in the things that you know matter and a desire to preserve and protect them and to prioritize them. Wonderful. Wonderful. And then this is our last, this is our main note for Tom Pompadil, right? The Stranger says, Yeah.

Harry, did you put your name into the Goblet of Fire? No, he says, is it my task to stop the fire? Is it my task to face Sauron? And Tom says, your task is to face both. Dun, dun, dun, which is so direct and...

for Tom Bombadil in a way that does not make any sense to me. But I'm willing to go for the ride. But it felt like a really odd moment. I really bumped on this too. And like in the flow of a

little speech that I was digging. Like we're enjoying the glimpses of the constellations of the ceiling. We get a wanderer line, very compelling, especially given our recent separation from our beloved Harfoots. There's another like warning in this about control. We get the like very explicit Sauron Saruman coding with like, you know, the idea of these two flames combining. Yeah.

The message about the deeds, great deeds are left to the hands they were placed in and made me think of one of my favorite passages from Fellowship. It's an Elrond quote. At least for a while, said Elrond, the road must be trod, but it will be very hard and neither strength nor wisdom will carry us far upon it. This quest may be attempted by the weak with as much hope as the strong, yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world. Small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are

elsewhere that's like lord of the rings in miniature to me so i was like small hands do them just because they must because tom bombadil is too busy with his wife fucking busy with his honeycomb and his hot wife blame him honestly a fair river daughter is goldberry okay so i mean incredible so like all of that was wonderful and then there were two at both sides of the is it my task

to stop the fire. Is it my task to face Sarah on your task is to face them both. Both. I bumped on both sides of that. I bumped on the directness from Tom, which does not feel to me in line with how he behaves as you've outlined. I'll read another passage to you. This is also from fellowship at last photo spoke. Did you hear me calling master or was it just chance that brought you at that moment?

Tom stirred like a man shaken out of a pleasant dream. And what? I got it. I got it.

Did I hear you calling? Nay, I did not hear. I was busy singing. Just chance brought me then. If chance you call it. It was no plan of mine, though I was waiting for you. We heard news of you and learned that you were wandering. We guess you'd come ere long down to the water. All paths lead that way down to Withy Windle. Old gray willow man. He's a mighty singer and it's hard for little folk to escape his cunning mazes. But Tom had an errand there.

that he dared not hinder. So like that feels like a encapsulation of everything we were just talking about. Like the idea of chance, which we track a lot, right? Ours is no chance meeting. There are things that Tom says there where he's like,

Okay, I had like a thing to do and like, no, I did not hear it. I was busy singing and it wasn't a plan of mine. But then he's like, though, I was waiting for you. And so at once you feel that he is going to take this attitude and this approach that is notably and uniquely his unmistakably his, but also that he is.

ever present and like just around you like the air. And like that feels different than this very explicit mission setting, which like, and then from the stranger side of,

His desire and desperation to understand and to be guided, that tracks. It tracks with where we are in his journey. But I think maybe I'm just programmed in a ring story. I want the Frodo, like, I will take it. I will take the ring. I don't want someone to have to say to Frodo, like, your job is to take the ring. Even though, like, of course, there's...

one leads to the other in a fashion. And so I'm open to that also being true still here. But in real time, in the moment, I was like, wait, what? I'm not surprised that we both had that response to it. I'm willing to consider that perhaps Tom Bobadil would speak differently to Anastari than he would to a hobbit. I'm also willing to consider that this was a long time ago, not really in the span of Tom Bobadil's life. But let's just stay tuned. But otherwise... Watch this space.

genuinely delightful. I love the way they handled the singing. Just have him sort of like mumbling and crooning around. I thought that was really great. Um,

We get a dark wizard check-in. There's really not much to say. The Gowdrim got to focus on the Harfoots. They call Tom Bombadil the Hermits. They're aware of him. Obviously, he shared honey with him once. That felt like a double, like a wordplay, because they're referring to him as a hermit, but also the Hermit's Hat is the constellation. Yeah. So they're literally just describing where they are. Oh, I love that. Under the Hermit's Hat. That didn't occur to me. All right.

Let's go to the windblown Harfoots and the Dusty stores, shall we? Please. I am obsessed with the way that Poppy landed in a bush, like in a bush. That is definitely probably what would happen to me. Or I would lose all my hair ornaments like Nori did. Probably both is what would happen to me.

We meet a couple new characters here. Merrimack, who is very clearly Poppy's love interest this season, and I'm for it. I am into it. Dude, the vibes were flying. Immediately. The chemistry was crackling. Nori's little face as she was observing it. She's like, I'm Nori. Hey. Oh, man. Great.

And then we meet Gundabol, the leader of the stores. What's a store, you might ask? Great question. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

When Nori and Poppy say Harfoots live in holes, it doesn't seem natural, right? We're like, oh, that's so funny because hobbits live in hobbit holes, right? But this is what Tolkien says about stores. Stores were broader, heavier in build, their hands and feet were larger, and they preferred flatlands and riversides. They came west after the Harfoots put a pin in that, right? Um,

Bigger ears in this world, certainly. They have bigger ears than the Harfoots do. And then when describing Smeagol, who is also Gollum, and Smeagol's pal Deagol, Tolkien wrote...

Quote, a clever-handed and quiet-footed little people akin to the fathers of the fathers of the stores, for they loved the river. And it's so sad. The river comes up multiple times in the description of these stores. So it's so sad for river-loving folk to be out in the dusty and dried-up east. This place once was green, says Tom Bombadil. And so perhaps they lived in a beautiful valley next to a river. But now they got to steal some water from that bell well and...

And, you know, it's inhospitable to live out here for the stores. Perhaps they will not be there for long. Seems like a safe bet. How do you feel about the line, great, big, grand elf from Gundam? You who are on Gandalf watch. You know how I feel about this now. Like, it's just...

I never really left Gandalf Island, so I'm actually still enjoying it. But if it stops, if there comes a moment where he's not Gandalf, which I, then I'll just, it will have been too much. It will have been too much. But because I still think that's where we're heading, I'm like, this is, yeah, okay. She's a true believer. Let's keep following our nose. What does the gun say? The gun says, that's a name I haven't heard in a long time. Long time. No, this is what she says. Steve, will you play this clip? Oh, man.

Story goes, in ancient days there was a store. Wasn't like the rest of us. They say he dreamed one night of a place with endless streams of cold water and rolling hills so soft a family could dig an hole and live in it in less than a month. He called it the Suzat. Struck out one year with a caravan of followers to find it. Promised when he did he'd send someone back to gather the rest of us. But that was the last any of us ever heard.

of Rorymas Burrows. Poppy's walking song. I should have been here before. You're going to where you come from. Does it look like this? Have you come back here to lead us all to the Suzat? I think Rorymas never found the Suzat. And after a while, we just kept wondering. We don't have a home.

It's a long clip, but a good one. I don't think we spent enough time, frankly, calling out Markella Kavanaugh, who's so good as Nora. She's always great, and I don't know how often we just underline it. But when she's talking here with just tears streaming down her face about the fact that they don't have a home is...

And this from our wanderer, this from our girl who spent all last season being like, let's go adventuring. And then she's like, how sad that we never found a permanent, that our culture is to always be seeking and searching and walking and hiding. Mallory Rubin. What does Suzette mean? Shire. Baggins. Baggins. Just Shire. This was fun.

Yeah. Tell me about it. This really got me, man. So, okay. I'm on, let me, let me just say on the, on the poppies walking song front, I'm the, I'm the godfather three meme with this now. Like just, like the instrumental behind that clip was so beautiful. Gorgeous. And like, like as you called out last week, it was the, the, the scoring is just, I mean, of course, always from, from our guy bear sensational, but yeah,

This felt different to me than what we got. The worry I had last week, which that was the second episode, but last week for the pod, because they released three episodes at once. Not sure if you're aware of that. Oh, okay. Did I write off a 40-page note doc for us last week? I don't know. This deeply emotional and resonant thing, I wanted it to remain that and not be like plot. Yeah. Right? Right.

But this doesn't feel like that. This feels there's a difference between plot and connection. And like lore. And here...

Yes. Yeah. To like the connection across time, across places, but also then across these people because like this is a bridge then between the goon and Nori. This is a pathway to a map to like a shared emotional truth and understanding to a shared longing, this desire for home. I was like, you know,

you know, thumbing through the pages and coming across that line, the early descriptions of the Shire and we're like establishing literally like timeframes, like how time is marked in the story, like how time is marked among the hobbits, like their own records began only after the settlement of the Shire and their most ancient legends hardly looked back further than their wandering days and wandering days is capitalized. And it's like,

It just feels like this is then like a way to like honor that and tie everything together so beautifully. And then of course it connects to this. We don't have a home like this theme we've been discussing that we talked about last, last week, like glimmer is longing for home, that glimmer. And like the stranger talking about that idea with Nori at the beginning of the season and like,

I love Nori. I continue to love Nori as like a character who allows us to think about how those things aren't mutually exclusive, like a desire for home and like a place to settle and feel like rooted and feel like you belong.

but also a desire to explore and live. And like for each person, maybe the sequencing of that is distinct. And like the fact that it is different for the different characters or where they are in their lives, like feels really true to life to me. And like Nori wanting to go out and hear the sparrows sing. And then also still wanting to have a place that felt like truly permanently hers and theirs, like all makes sense to me.

So I really, I loved this. It just hadn't occurred to me that they would try to do this, but I know that they're just majorly condensing timelines. And so this is the first time it occurred to me that, are we going to watch the founding of the Shire? Are they going to be able to resist that, to have Nori and Poppy and these stores that they've met and hopefully meet up with Nori's family and also Malva? And these are the founders of the Shire, and we'll see sort of the first little hobbit holes happen.

There was a hobbit who lived in a hole in the ground. Like, that's the origin of the hobbit for Tolkien. So, yeah, the endless streams of cold water and rolling hills, so soft. A family could dig a hole. I mean, great. Listen, the Gaudrim show up and they backhand the Goond and I hated it. So I'm ready for those guys to die. Sounds great. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah, it was interesting just the like, do you know why we wear these masks to fight the Dark Wizard? And when we return with him, you will find out for yourselves. So this like seeming implication, at least that the bargain that they're making now for the Dark Wizard to like rid them of this blank. Their eczema? Yeah. Their eczema was like of his. Yeah.

Which, I mean, like, you know, there's been a lot of talk about this idea that, like, Sauron himself is the one who blighted the tree in Lindon. Like, you know, the idea that, like, the veiny black goo and the veiny black blight on the leaves of Lindon. So, yeah, it's like, that's a classic move. Create the problem and then offer the solution in order to have power over people. Yeah.

Let's go to the Southlands for a little longer than you would prefer. Isildur, Erandir, Estrid, Theo, and the Ents. Yep. I love an Ent. I laughed so hard when Estrid and Isildur had their moment talking about Numenor, and all I could hear was you saying, tell me of your homeworld, Usel. A classic Dune moment. Steve, will you play this clip? Fancy you never want for water on your island.

No, in Numenor we have water in most of our homes. I'd like to see that. I wager you're betrothed with two. Sildur's like, down, girl. You told me you were engaged, by the way. This is honestly, these two I'm loving. Like flirting over having indoor plumbing. Aqueducts? What's not to love about an aqueduct? Also when his face is just smeared in dirt and she's like, you missed a spot and then smudges his dirty face with her dirty thumb. It's pretty great.

Oh, man. However, we move from Dune to Game of Thrones because Estrid has exposed herself as a wildsman or a wild woman, a wildling, if you prefer. And they clap her in irons and they're just toting it through the woods. And it is classic Jon and Ygritte, you know, walking around with Ygritte with their hands bound, right? One key, absolutely one key difference, like Ygritte, like,

rubbing, you know, up against Jon and like, ooh, like, oh, no, yeah, oh, with your hands then, no wonder y'all so miserable. Isildur would be like, yeah, I'd love to fuck. Thanks, I agree. Let's do it. We'd be warmer. Oh, we get the muddy...

quicksand mudworm thing that reminds me of the Swamp of Sadness or the Bogs of Eternal Stench or the R.O.U.S.'s and the lightning sand from The Princess Bride or Hercules versus the Hydra or something like that. It's very, very classic, iconic fantasy stuff. And then, you know, so Esther, you know, proves her quality by saving them when she doesn't have to, right? Of course. And then...

a rondeer covered in mud and goop when they're asking like what was that thing right i've not read about it in the legendarium what is that thing right and he says quote they're older this is what ganel said they're older and fowler things than orcs in the deep places of the world and also quote far far below the deepest delving of the dwarves the world is gnawed

by nameless things. So sort of smashing those two classics together, Erandir says, there are nameless things in the deep places of this world. And it's fascinating to have that here in the same episode when we're talking about, as you mentioned before, the stranger and naming and who Tom Bombadil, an old thing that may or may not have gnawed in the deep place of the world, but has been here a very long time. And this is what Tolkien said about

He says, quote, there is, of course, a clash between literary technique and the fascination of elaborating in detail an imaginary mythical age. Parentheses, mythical, not allegorical. My mind does not work allegorically, end parens.

As a story, I think it is good that there should be a lot of things unexplained, especially if an explanation actually exists. And I have perhaps from this point of view erred in trying to explain too much and give too much past history. Many readers have, for instance, rather stuck at the Council of Elrond. And even in a mythical age, there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one, intentionally. And as is this...

which is, I guess, just called supper. So supper. Yeah. Got a nice, like cut it, cut a nice steak off. Yeah. And mounting his escape there.

You love a bit. How are you feeling about Tolkien's don't call it allegory bit as it continues? I love that he's committed to a bit. It just, you know, makes it, I feel like we're really, we're enjoying a run of discovery here, realizing what a great, what a great Potter he'd be. What a great social media enthusiast he'd be. A bitchy critic. I love it. It's all this fits. It's fits. Yeah. It all tracks. Yeah.

Don't call them wildlings. They're wild men, but they're stuck in the tree, tree prison with Theo. They call Theo a well-fed, which I just kind of love, right? As like a sort of title. And then the end center. And we've got two acting legends, Olivia Williams and Jim Broadbent, voicing Winter Bloom and Snaggle Root. Shout out the Entwives. Guess what? They're still here. They've not left. Yeah.

And if you don't know, that's a big thing in Lord of the Rings. The ants are like, we don't know where. We misplaced our wives. We're not sure. Poor Treebeard. We're not sure where our wives went. Have you seen them? Oh, man. Treebeard can't say goodbye to anyone without asking. Where do whores go? And where have our wives gone? We don't know. Oh, boy. Then we get some classic tree whispering from our guy, Arondir, who loves a tree, has loved a tree since the moment we met him. Yes.

has a tree sort of breastplate thing that he wears. It's his whole thing. It's his whole body. He was a grower. Yeah. Yeah, he's a grower, not a shower. He loves it. Okay, so he calms the Ents down, similar to Tom Bombadil. We are soothing. We are coaxing. We are calming. And then we get this absolutely beautiful moment from the Ents. Steve, will you play this clip, please? Forgiveness takes an age. Reign over.

Washing clear the long memory of soil. New bark, covering old scars. And in all that time, I promise, we will see to it that the trees of this wood are left in peace. I think they know what peace is. It is what comes after the night storm, when the door is silent and the birds awaken. We have tended this forest.

Since before the mountains rose up and grew up, when the only sound here was the light upon the moth. And the breathing we know. I strut it.

An incredible moment. The score swells. We are filled with joy thinking about the parallels between these elders and Tom Bombadil and the people who've been the guardians of the world and all of this. And then Isildur and Estrid seem like they're gonna get something happening. And then here comes... I mean, we get a tuck of hair behind the ears. I mean... We're going for it. And then here comes our guy, Hagen.

who as it turns out is ester it's uh betrothed you hate to see it so disaster absolute calamity calamity the southland around her seems to leave one plot line to join the adar plot line that's what it seems to me he's like exit exit the southland part of the outline i'm headed up to the adar auric part of the outline thank you very much i mean he made a promise that's gonna take a lot of

his life to fulfill an honor. So yeah, time to get going. Time to get moving. Our dear calls Theo, the Lord of Pilar gear. And, uh, we got some questions about that in the spoiler section. Yeah. Um,

He also gives this like beautiful Sundarin departure, which is a, like a goodbye version of a well-known Sundarin greeting. And, you know, it's like kind of close-ish to Namari-ish is sort of like what he says to Theo here. Yeah.

And then this is, this wasn't the end of the episode. The end of the episode was actually Galadriel, but I just found, I love the Rufus Wainwright song. I found the smash cut to the Rufus Wainwright song a bit jarring, given where we left the episode. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't like, may it be like, it didn't come like sort of like oozing in. It was just sort of like Rufus is here, but I, this song rules out.

I've been listening to it over and over again. I love it. They did it again. They did it again. No surprise. So we'll talk about that more in our music episode next week. I can't wait. I can't wait. Anything else you want to say about the Ents? That winter bloom. Just like it was gorgeous. The clip we heard. It felt like a lullaby to me.

Like it felt like something eternal that has passed down from like a parent to child and like friend to friend and generation to generation. It was just beautiful. It felt timeless. I adored it. I would have adored seeing Isildur and Estrid actually get to kiss before.

Hagen showed up, but alas. I thought too, like, this was probably my favorite, even though overall the balance of character sets in the episode, I, you know, might have gone a different way. Like this, seeing Arandir and Winterbloom kind of like come to common understanding and purpose was probably my favorite Arandir moment. Yes. The way the pet, like the petal on his hand and you feel this,

First of all, you feel the depth and length of his life, but just his sense of like appreciation for, I feel like the world that he is existing in and trying to like preserve. Not since he like apologized to that tree before cutting it down in season one, I think have I like sort of. Referenced here, his shame for having to.

To fell that tree. Yeah. All right. So this was the end. I mean, wonderful. I thought the end stuff was really good. I liked the design of them a lot. I know that they really wanted to make them look like more like trees than like humanoid trees. And I think they did a really good job with that. I loved the way they moved. I thought it was all like very cool. Really good.

That's the end of the main deep dive. And that brings us to a chonkier than usual wig watch TM and ear watch TM with Joanna Robinson TM. Do you wear wigs? Okay, so as we teased in the mailbag episode, we got a couple emails about the elf ears this season. We have some questions and it bleeds into wig watch. So we're going to address it here.

Rachel says the elf ears have been extra crazy this season. Sometimes they look like doughy baguettes or weird meaty croissants. See all of Elrond's ears. Other times they look great, like when Círdan is by the pool shaving his beard. And they seem to change from scene to scene. Watch Gil-galad. It's crazy.

Spicy. Galadriel has fared a bit better, but her hair covers her ears much of the time. Considering all this, I propose Earwatch copyright with Mal and Joe for the runs on Rings of Power. I, for one, would feel much better knowing these ears are not slipping under the radar. Thank you, Rachel. This is an email we got from Jean-Michel. He says, the High King's ears are chunky, thick boys. Hashtag big ol' ear meat. So that's Earwatch TM.

with Jo and Mel and that feeds right into my one of many wig watch points I have this week which is the adventuring elves have sideburns now whereas it was like a very like bold design choice that the elves in Linden do not have any they're like shaved above their ears so the ears come out or whatever and I don't know if it's like the better to hide their chunky ears or what but literally the first scene of this episode Elrond has no sideburns as is the fashion in Linden and

And then when we see him next on the bridge, he has burns. Are the sideburns meant to denote the passage of time? The rest of his hair certainly is. It's dashing. They're lovely curls. Much longer. So they've been on the road for a while. Is that your impression of what's supposed to be happening here? Yeah, I think so. You know, they're limited in their personal grooming right now. I wonder if we're just going to see Robert Aramayo's hair, like, keep, you know, because, you know, Hugo Weaving's Elrond is...

loves a flat iron. Like, you know, are we going to see long hair Elrond before all this is done? Courtney writes in to say, I highly doubt it is actually a wig, but Robert Aramayo's curls hubba hubba. Pro tip for our listeners. If you write hubba hubba in an email, I'm probably going to read it because it delights me. There's a drooling face emoji too. I did miss the drooling face emoji. Great stuff. Okay, so Elrond gets luscious curls and some burns. Yeah.

And Galadriel gets a crown of braids, and I loved this because this is – I remember when the first images came out for Brigs of Power, and everyone's like, oh, Galadriel's a warrior now. And then people who know the text a bit better had to, like, provide all these supporting quotes of, like, actually Galadriel is known for being athletic, right? And this is one of the quotes I remembered.

Quote, she was then of Amazon disposition and bound up her hair as a crown when taking part in athletic feats. Thus, her Sindarin name, Galadriel, maiden crowned with gleaming hair. So I love that they gave her a braided crown in this episode. Fantastic.

Just two more bullet points to go on wig watch. I'd knock Tom Bombadil for his great big bushy beard. Shout out, you know, Jim Broadbent in this episode. But he looks pretty identical to the John, the like iconic John Howe painting of Tom Bombadil. So I, you know, you got to go after John Howe if you want to go after the beard. And I dare you to do that. So not on my watch. Last but not least, we have to talk about the Harfoots in the stores. Nori has lost her hair accessories and her wig looks insane. Terrible.

This is terrible. I never really appreciated how much the acorns were pulling the whole look together until they were gone. I mean, the combination of the sandstorm, the canonically established dearth of water outside of a very loud well, and...

And the absence of the egg corns that I always briefly think are very large martini glass olives before I remember they're egg corns. Our girl is working through it. She's working through it. Last but certainly not least, Poppy's new guy, Merrimack, is rocking what I'm calling the Uber Rufio. Just a beautiful explosion of hair. Rain 2.

A conspiracy unmasked our weekly. Who's that guy? Best guesses and thoughts. Yeah. Where are you on the strangers Gandalf front? I'm a, I'm a back to a hundred percent. Okay. 99. Just for like the sake of self-preservation. If it doesn't happen, what about you? Where are you?

increasingly on your side. Ganos' relationship with Tom Bobadil, I think, is an interesting thing to consider. When they destroy Sauron and the One Ring and all that sort of stuff and everyone's like, let's party. He's like, I gotta go talk to Tom.

This is what he says, quote, he is a moss gatherer and I have been a stone doomed to rolling, but my rolling days are ending and now we shall have much to say to one another. So, and they're like, how do you think Tom is? He's like, fine. He doesn't give a shit about any of this. So yeah. He might have a warm bath waiting for me. And some fresh bread and a warm fire. And lie to me about his wife being there. I mean, sounds like a fun time. But yeah, like the fact that like, so if we didn't like it, but if Tom Bombadil sets Gann off this task,

And he finally does it. Sauron's gone for good this time. Who would he want to talk to but Tom Bobadil about that? So anyway. That would be satisfying. We got a long email from listener Chris about on the blue wizard front and somewhat compelling, but not enough to sway me here. So thank you for that email, Chris. But I think I'm stuck in the Gandalf theory for right now.

Pilargir, do you want to... I mean, we haven't... We didn't talk about this last week. Do you just want to say really quickly what Pilargir is? Well, we're heading toward Gondor, folks. Yeah, it's proto-Gondor. Yeah. I do see that you have begun to refer to Elendil as Daddy Elendil in the doc, which I appreciate. So, you know...

uh, a seal door didn't find his, his hot dad in the Harbor, but there, everyone's going to be together here before long. Not everyone, not everyone. Yeah.

So this is fun. Like, you know, the establishment of like this old Numenorean settlement when we see the map and Isildur's description and then we go and Aqueducts and the text. So there's this like connection already to Numenor and it's, you know, in showland. It's like, we'll understand why this is a

A place for kings. We've already got plumbing, so step one in the right direction. A person I fell instantly in love with wiped some dirt off of my face right here. This is where I will rule. I'm excited about this. So Pilargir is proto-Gondor. We got a potential sort of laying track for the Shire. The door is a Duranor.

are on their way. Like, so just, I like this contrast to The Lord of the Rings where our heroes are walking around the ruins of an older story. They are constantly walking past felled statues and crumbling ruins and stuff like this. And I love this, like, you know, obviously, like, duh. It's, you know, it's a prequel. Okay, we're going to, like, get the, you know, and sometimes this can feel fan service-y, but I just kind of like this. You know, we're still in the ruins of Pilargir, but it is the seed of something else. Right.

I love that. Do you want to talk about this? Is this a YouTube comment that we got from a listener? Do you want to read this? Please. Yeah. You want me to read it? It's the first YouTube. It's the first comment on episode one to three. Deep dive. Please. You want to share this? Justin Dickinson said, talk about Beric for 15 minutes and never directly mention that he's a horse. Classic. Yeah.

I can't believe we did that, but I also believe that we did that. That was my reaction. I was like, wait, is that true? And they're like, probably. Probably true. We probably did that. She's talking about Beric like he's any other human character. Makes sense. The reason this is here in the notes is I was wondering if Isildur is going to found Gondor here, does Beric found Rowan? That's not the lore I know. Don't email me. Okay. Okay.

Dare to dream. Who's right about the rings? This is a thing that the show is kind of trying to keep a little mysterious, I think, though it's getting less mysterious by the day. But like, Elrond's right about the rings. We didn't talk about that. Like, he's right. We talked about this a bit in the mailbag. But we got this email from Heather that I thought that in a connection that hadn't occurred to me. Heather says, Elrond flying off the waterfall is a mirror of what his mother, Elwing, did to protect the last Silmaril from the sons of Feanor.

Gil and Galadriel being in the Sons of Feanor role is a bad look for them. Elwing transformed into a bird as she went over the cliff, and in honor of her, Elrond's costumes are often decorated in feather and wing motifs, as well as stars for his father. So...

So, L-Wing, also a big Richard Kimball. That's what I'm taking from this. It was a family favorite. They loved watching the fugitive together. Family movie night. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love thinking about that when, like, Doran is making fun of his feathery shirt in season one, but he's, like, wearing the feathers in honor of his bird mom. Very sweet. Last but not least, this is going to be our weekly segment. It's called Ring Wraith Watch 2024.

We did this a bit in the mailbag episode. We're just going to update it with anything new we learned in episode four. We are looking for nine mortal men doomed to die. We know that three come from Numenor, but we have no new Numenorean data, so we're skipping over Numenor. Any further Gaudrim thoughts? And what do you think of this theory that's floating around that the dark wizard played by Ciaran Hines is going to be the Witch King of Angmar? When we get this idea of the flames coming together and...

all of middle earth burning what do you what do you think about that someone or many someones are coming out of this room we know plot line we know for a fact that at least one of the nazgul comes from the east if not a few so like it's either one of the gaudium or this guy or someone we have yet to meet okay whatever right how do you think we might be in multiples here

I could see two coming out of the East, two of nine. Yeah. Because men are thin on the ground. Candidates are thin on the ground here. So I'm just like sort of scraping them together where I can. Here's my main one. And yours. When Arandir called Theo Lord of Pelagir, that's one step closer to the kind of men we think of when we think of the Nazgul. So it's a wrap. Yeah. It's a wrap on Theo. It's a wrap. Okay. Also, Theo's like, I've made promises of my own.

I mean, vengeance. Okay. And then we, I mean, last but not least, Esther's betrothed Hagen. We got to get rid of him somehow so she can marry Isildur, right? So. Yeah. I'm open to all sorts of ways that Hagen could die. Slap her right on him. Take it out of the picture. Okay. Sounds great. It's done. That has been our deep dive wig watch ring, you know, dips into the Rings of Power season two, episode four.

We'll be back next week with the promised music, Tolkien and music episode. Hobbsanddragons.gmail.com. We've already gotten some great, very informative sort of emails about Tolkien and music, which I am delighted to share with you all next week. Thank you to Steve Allman for his work on soundboard today. Thank you to Arjuna Ramkhal for his production work on everything. Also, it's NFL season. Pray for Arjuna.

Thanks to Jomie and pray for Mallory Rubin. Is Jomie a dinner on the social? It's Mallory Rubin and Halo. Halo's here. If you, I would let, if anyone's watching, you'll see that I'm constantly looking over cause he's begging for dinner. Adam, guess what? A rare day out of the house. Very weird. If you also, I am wondering if his meows might be audible. We'll find out. It's possible that he's a, he might, he might make an appearance on, on Mike. We'll see. Yeah.

He loves Lord of the Rings. He's an enthusiast. And a very special thanks to Stefano Sanchez who's filling in on the video for us this week. John Richter will be back next week and we will see you all then.