Our Top Moments From Netflix's 'Daredevil'
02:26:49 Share

This episode is brought to you by Metro by T-Mobile. Nothing, and I mean nothing, is worse than settling for less. And we all do it to ourselves, whether it's sitting through a bad date or staying in a relationship that didn't meet our standards. Well, I think we deserve better, and so does Metro. They believe that instead of settling, you should get great deals on 5G devices from top brands like Samsung with no contracts, no credit checks, no exploding bills, and nada, yada, yada.

Yada. That's wireless without the gotcha. Stop by your neighborhood Metro store or visit mbytmo.com slash stores and find out about their amazing offers.

This episode is brought to you by Marvel Television's Daredevil Born Again. Charlie Cox returns as vigilante lawyer Matt Murdock and Vincent D'Onofrio as former mob boss Wilson Fisk. The darker side of Matt Murdock is revealed when he gains a new perspective on his role as the Daredevil and faces an internal struggle between justice and revenge. The devil's work is never done. Don't miss the two-episode premiere of Daredevil Born Again on March 4th only on Disney+.

Greetings, and welcome to House of R, a Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin. Joining me today, now that she has finished an evening of not drinking the water at Josie's. Correct. You can never drink the water at Josie's. Correct. It's Joanna Robinson, right here in the kitchen with me.

Hell's Kitchen. Absolutely. The red moonlighting is here. They've done it again. They being John Richter. John with the custom logos and the topic specific set deck. Yeah. It's wonderful. It feels very, I mean, the candles have been here before, but this feels very Catholic. Does it not? Well, that's appropriate. I know.

Matt Murdock would approve. Correct. Father Lantum would approve. We are here, of course. I'm so excited. To talk about Daredevil. I've seen. So excited. Next week, we will actually be covering the new MCU series, Daredevil Born Again. Cannot wait for that. You'll be able to hear our...

deep dive, deep. It's going to be a deep dive. Deep, deep, deep. Deep dive on the two episodes. A profound dive. Two episodes. Deep and profound. I agree. Premiere of Daredevil Born Again. But before we watch the new thing, we got to talk about the old thing.

We weren't going to miss an excuse to revisit the original Netflix Daredevil series. Come on. So that's what we're doing today. We're doing a, I would say a classic Maljo House of Our Top Moments revisitation pod with just a little bit of an identity crisis. This has sort of become a hybrid of a Top Moments and a Superlatives pod. Yes. There will be some categories where I...

I think we might have a hard time identifying something that technically counts as a moment. Hmm. Okay. But we're going to try. Okay. We're going to try. Jo. How many smuggles? How much are we smuggling today? I feel like I was unusually disciplined. Great. But definitely have a few smuggles. I am chaotic and out of control. So. Personality swap. This week on Today on House of R. You're the angel.

I'm the devil. Fantastic stuff. Jo. Yeah. Before we start going through our top moments, let's pick up today's edition of the New York Bulletin and hit some programming reminders.

Did you hear the Baltimore come out and programming there? I did. Programming reminders. We're going to go down to the ocean, hon, for some programming reminders. Let's do it. It's the way on our prestige coverage of White Lotus. Every single time you say brew and you just look at me and you go, I know I look deeply into your eyes and your soul. Bill's like, what's wrong with these two? What's happening? Brew.

Speaking of which, we're covering White Lotus with Bill every week on the Prestige TV podcast. Joe and Rob are covering it on the Prestige TV podcast. We're all having a blast in Thailand for White Lotus season three. Speaking of the Prestige TV podcast, you and Rob have been crushing it with the severance coverage, but there's an extra special severance surprise. There is.

Earlier this week, you were out in the lobby and you got to meet... I tried to keep it cool, but I actually got to meet one of my heroes. Your heroes. Damon Lindelof. Damon Lindelof was here in the studio. To record a Severance chat with you. We talked about Severance, but he got to meet you and he was really excited to meet you and you were really excited to meet him. It was a thrill. It was very cute. It was wonderful. It was really cute.

Everybody should check out that episode if they haven't yet. It is fantastic. Damon talks about theories, but not just theories. Also, just like as the person who co-created Lost and Watchmen and Leftovers, he's sort of the perfect person to talk about this time in mystery box television and sort of like how we should be thinking about those characters and those story arcs and stuff like that. So I just like...

It was a weird idea of mine of like, Damon, would you come in and talk about a show that I know you love and he was thrilled to. And then what else did he say, Mallory? He said, when do I get to come on House of R? Standing invite. Always welcome. Standing invite. Tim Lindelof. Professor Tolkien. Always welcome. Always welcome. Always welcome. Those two. What else are we covering? Tomorrow.

Just when you thought you completed your 39 episode rewatch of Daredevil. Yeah, we're covering Yellowjacket. Yellowjacket. Buzz, buzz, baby. We're back for the fourth episode already of season three of Yellowjackets. That will be hitting the Ringerverse YouTube and the House of R feed at the end of this week. And then next week, as mentioned, we will be diving into the new season, the premiere of Daredevil Born Again. Over on the Ringerverse.

It's Versys time. It is. It's Oscars time, which means it's Versys time. If all goes well. You never know with this many schedules. There are like five plagues going around right now. But if everyone is healthy and able to be in the studio next week on Monday afternoon, we will be filming the fourth annual Versys. Is it the fourth? Arjuna, is that possible?

I think it's the fourth annual Versys. It's at least the third. Who knows? What is time? But it's probably the fourth. And we'll be doing it for the first time in person together. Correct. We've never done a Versys in person together. There are some whispers, and by whispers, I mean Arjuna explicitly told us to dress up. Okay. For me, that means a certain shade of jogger and athleisure wear. We'll see. Black is a formal athleisure wear. I can't wait for that. It's going to be a blast. And then, of course, the guys...

Pew Pew Midnight Boys will also be covering the Daredevil premiere. They've got a Daredevil primer of their own up already. Really fun stuff from the guys. There's a lot going on right now. Everybody's having a blast. Okay.

Joanna. Yes. How can everybody follow along? So glad you asked me this. Yeah. First and foremost, why don't you just follow the pod? That's a great idea. Follow our podcast, House of R. Yeah. And the Ringerverse. Yeah. Follow us on YouTube. That's right. We mentioned the Damon Lindelof severance thing. That's on Ringer TV. Our stuff is on the Ringerverse YouTube channel. Yeah. All of that is happening over there. Ringer Quest. Ringer Quest. Sweeping the nation. We've, we've.

We planned a second session. Am I allowed to say that? It's up to them if they want to keep it in the end. You can edit it out if you don't want to. What am I, Karen Page breaking news over here? I just put a pin in that. What are my sources? The best sources you've ever heard of? Are we getting phone calls about my sources? Anyway, what else should you do? Listen, follow us on socials. That's always a good idea. Yeah. Whatever social media platform you choose to engage in, that is your choice. And we will be on there. And...

Email us. Please. Hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com. We've got a ton of Yellow Jackets emails, so many, but we are light. How many of them are about knee dislocations currently? Don't tell me. The limit is not exist. We'll be talking about tendons forever. We're a little light on Hell's Kitchen. Send us your Daredevil's thoughts. Time to get excited for Daredevil. I mean, we've been excited. I'm thrilled. We've been excited. All right, speaking of, what's the spoiler warning today? The Friendly Neighborhood one. Yeah. Yeah.

We, our focus today, we'll explain our rules a little bit more precisely shortly, but our focus today is the three season run of Netflix's Daredevil. That's the bulk of what we're going to talk about. So everything that happened in the Netflix Daredevil show is fair game today. But other stuff is bound to come up. Certainly the Matt and Fisk appearances in the MCU to date are likely to come up. You are most excited to talk about

Fisk and Hawkeye. That's your favorite. Exactly. Fisk, right? Yes. And Fisk and Echo. Yes. The best Fisk has ever been. We will probably talk about some of the other... We will talk about some of the other Netflix Marvel shows. Just a little bit about that connected universe. I don't think we will be going into great detail on Defenders or Punisher or Jessica Jones or Luke Cage. But should I... Don't come up. Don't come up.

All of your Iron Fist picks need to wait for another pod. I have like a three paragraph Iron Fist pick. Guys, we need a break so that Jo can make new selections because all of hers are Iron Fist picks. Obviously the wider MCU, always fair game. And of course, comics canon could come up. I think we'll be talking about the comics a little bit more when we get into actually covering the new season, but it could always come up. So we'll mention it in part of our spoiler warning. Okay. It's time to pod. Put that rope around your hands. Let's do this. It's time for the opening snapshot.

What if I had shown up with like bloodied

around my hands, of course. I considered coming in with either the season one or season three. You know, it's very Pietro and Ultron. Like, this is just a thing that people, like, could wear to go on a... A black clingy shirt. Power walk in LA. Like, it's just real Matt Blaser. Moisture-wicking material for Matt. Always kind of confounding with Pietro, but it makes sense for Matt. I did consider, you know, the...

the homemade face covering that Matt wears because it's a great way to hide the particularly ample eye swell. You have nary a single bag. Come on. But if you did want to show up wearing Jessica Jones's scarf over your face, I would support it. That's a Defenders reference. Look at you. I love Jessica Jones. We haven't done much talking.

Over the years about the Netflix Marvel shows. I mean, here and there, we are obviously, we know that we share a deep and abiding passion for Matt Murdock. That has come up many a time. But this is, I think we're going to discover some things about each other today as we go. Do you have what you would consider any Daredevil hot takes from the Netflix run?

From the Netflix run? Yeah. I don't know about hot takes. I will say... Unpopular opinions? I think something you don't know about me is that I have read more Daredevil comics than I have read any other Marvel hero comics. Is he your favorite comic book character? I don't know about... I will say this. You enjoy the runs. The person who got me into comics, their favorite character was Daredevil. Okay. And so I have read so much Daredevil and...

If he's not my favorite, thinking about him during this rewatch, I was like, is he my favorite? I think across comics into on-screen adaptation, not you, Ben Affleck. That's not going to be part of today's. You noticed that we did not mention that film in the spoiler warning. I have a Ben Affleck...

movie in the theaters the first week it came out. I have a Ben Affleck take that will come up. But like, I think tracking Matt Murdock across these incredible creators, Frank Miller, Brian Michael Bendis, like all the incredible work that they did with him, I think

He might, I think he might be my favorite character. Tremendous character. I think he might be. I love this. And I just think. Makes me even more excited than I already was to cover the new season with you. I think this is just like a revelation I came to over the last, I don't know, 48 hours, whatever it is. I binged 39 episodes of Daredevil, but like. It is. Those seasons were long. They were long seasons. Well, okay. So let's hit that next. What is your relationship to the Netflix series? Yeah. I love, I think season one of Daredevil. Yeah.

is the best Marvel television we've ever had. Legion season one is like my close second. Okay. But I think Daredevil season one is, and I was like confirmed for me on the rewatch. I just think that's an incredible season of television. Yeah.

And especially then you watch, when re-watching season one into season two into season three, different showrunners for each season. Right. Different flavors on each season. And by the time we get to end the season three. Yeah. I really like Eric Olesen who ran season three of Daredevil. And I think season three of Daredevil has a lot of good things on its mind. Visually, they stray so far away from how rich and lush and cinematic the first season looks. Mm-hmm.

Everything is quite bright and kind of a little cheap looking at the end of Daredevil season three. And it just really made me appreciate,

how much season one rose to the occasion of like taking seriously this opportunity that Netflix had to take custody of this character. The work that Stephen DeKnight did on that show, the work that Drew Goddard did on that show, the, the just absolute incredible casting of Charlie Cox, just, just really good. So I, I found all the rewatches,

Something to love in all three seasons. I think season one is perfect. I think season two has a lot going for it and I can identify where I feel like it missed the mark. And I think season three has like incredible ideas. Yeah.

Yeah. But I like season three a lot more than I think a lot of other people. Same. Yeah. As well. Yeah. I love this show. Love. It is fascinating to, you know, I remember even in real time the conversation about do the seasons need to be 13 episodes? Does every episode inside of a 13 episode season need to be a true hour? Like that was that was very much in the air when the series was airing.

But it is interesting to go back to it now that we have really been recalibrated as a viewing public to the six or eight or even 10 episode season. Like they, you, you,

It is, it exists in this kind of fascinating limbo state where it's not giving us the like old school 22 episodes. You can really just fuck around and, and have that kind of like surprising experience in a random episode that is untethered from the full plot, um, that you would get with, you know, full 20, 20, 22, 24 episode seasons, but it's also not as tight as the eight or 10 episode seasons. But I, I found myself while certainly clocking that and thinking about it on a rewatch, um,

Mostly to enjoy it and be glad for it because the thing that does not happen is like the constant. I was really struck by how strong the ends of the seasons are. Yes. And that feels like such a notable distinction from what happens currently in the Disney Plus six, eight episode era where we get to the ends of these seasons and we're like, we just have so much more left to do than is possible in the time that we have. And so that was like, I thought really palpable. Yeah.

In general. And I am not alone in this. One of many, like...

Every time for years, MCU fans would say, well, if you could bring any characters over from the Netflix first into the MCU canon. Charlie Cox as Matt Murdock. Charlie Cox as Matt Murdock and Vincent D'Onofrio as Wilson Fisk were always my two picks. Like, I just think both of those performances are wonderful and those character renderings are wonderful. And in general, I'm an enthusiast of the Netflix Marvel shows. Like, I really loved Jessica Jones and I quite enjoyed Luke Cage. So it's just been a...

a real blast to like dip back in. And I agree. Season one, I think is exceptional. And Matt and Fisk in that season in particular, I just like,

Love. Really, really, really love. I am pretty high on parts of season two. And yeah, season three is a mixed bag. And actually it was a little bit more of a mixed bag than I remember. Because I also similarly would say, oh no, I like season three more than most people seem to. And I think that's still true. But revisiting it, I found I had quite a few notes on season three. How many picks will we have from season three today? We will find out. Tough. We have rich character beats. Listen. Yeah.

The thing I want to say about I was really trying to figure out what it was about Matt Murdock that made him so special to me, to many people. And I think he's not wholly unique in this way and in terms of comic book heroes. But the way in which like, you know, because you could you could make this argument about Tony Stark. You could make this argument about Bruce Wayne. But like, I think the idea of the.

hardest, biggest, ongoing battle he fights is his internal struggle. That's what makes him most compelling. And the way that that comes through in the comics via often internal monologue of the character and the way in which the show has done such a good job of adapting that to

Without the internal monologue. We could have done a voiceover internal monologue and we don't. We get it through these incredible long conversation scenes, sometimes conversations that span an entire episode of the show. And that also feeds into the lawyerly aspect of Matt Murdock and the way in which there's like.

the Catholic debate, which is intrinsic, but also these sort of like scholarly lawyerly, you know, exchange of ideas debate that is intrinsic to this. So, so many, we love, I mean,

We love intelligent conversations in rooms. Like, we love that. That is like some of our favorite stuff. And that happens a lot on this. Paired with some of the most beautiful, poetic, balletic action. Yeah, it's great. And action that feeds into a guy who, yes, he has heightened senses, but his body is

is just a guy and he's healing quicker a little a bit quicker but like but yes he's carrying that damage the like the blood and the battering and stuff like that in a way that we don't you know we see in skinny steve but we don't see in super soldier steve and we don't see in the other avengers who are you know armored up or whatever the case may be for the most part and and the the

All the times in which we see Matt Murdock bleeding and bruised and battered and battling and getting back up again is just like so compelling and endearing. Yeah, I agree completely. I mean, I think in season three, I found it fascinating.

frustrating to watch Matt out of his suit and armor as this imposter wears it and soils his name for the entire season. Like, you think it's going to be a couple episodes and it's the entire season, but I do really love that aspect of

of Matt stripping back down to that essence that is inescapable for him. Like, and I, that's, I'm with you a hundred percent. Like that's my favorite thing about the character and why I enjoy spending time with this character and why I think the Charlie Cox performance is so,

so supremely compelling that is I think without question his favorite thing about playing Matt about playing Daredevil is that this is a character who is defined by faith but also by doubt and the way that those things inform each other is that specific alchemy that makes him so mesmerizing to watch when he's sitting down with Father Lansome on the bench talking about faith like I

It feels like we're watching like a play. I mean, I would be riveted watching just an entire season of those conversations. Or talking to Frank or talking to Foggy or, you know, like or in parallel with Wilson. Like there's all, you know, like especially in season one and in some of the best stuff in season two with Elektra. Like there's just like all this great mirroring. There's all this like there but for the grace of God go I sort of stuff. I have dark mirrors and there but for the grace of my notes multiple times. In many picks it's kind of impossible for it not to repeat as a theme. Right.

And like, I think sometimes when we do these top moments episodes, we try to introduce more variance in our picks. So let's say across the seasons or the characters. And it's like, I found myself, I assumed you would as well, really drawn repeatedly to those core ideas. And they found a clever way to refract him across. Like he's dark mirrored by Fisk.

And also Frank and also Electra and also my guy Dex, you know, so like it's my beloved Dex. I can fix him. I think is just don't take him to a baseball game, but I, I can fix it and it'll be fine. Yeah.

Just don't take him to a baseball game. What did you think of, you know, we've only gotten a light little smattering. Fisk has been actually more central in Hawkeye and Echo is like, this is a character here now. With Matt, we've gotten to glimpse him in Spider-Man No Way Home.

the thrill of the walk of shame in She-Hulk. And of course he has an incredible action sequence in Echo. So we've gotten a few different tastes of the MCU Matt flavor. I have like a very vivid memory of going on Big Pic to pod about No Way Home. And Sean and I, I think we're incapable of not talking about like what it meant to us to see Matt Murdock in that movie. And to the point where Amanda-

And I believe this is like commemorated in the episode that I was like, what the fuck is wrong with you two? There were three Spider-Mans in this movie. We should be talking about that. Just a very classic Amanda reaction. This is a meaningful thing that he's here. So we've gotten to wet our appetites a bit. Yeah. How has that felt and how has that heightened your excitement for the return of the Daredevil experience?

Charlie Cox. Continuation slash revival as they are describing it. Charlie Cox as Matt Murdock. Yeah. Seems to be... Knock on... There's no wood around. Are those... Is that real wood? I don't know. Knock on particle board.

untouchable because like you know he's in No Way Home a big movie that a lot of people loved and you and Sean were like fuck you Andrew Garfield like we want to talk about never have I said that or will I we want to talk about the two minutes we got with Matt Murdock or whatever for like 40 minutes normal he's in She-Hulk a show that you and I liked inconsistent but we liked very much so yeah and was a highlight of a show we already really liked yeah made a show we already liked

way better. And then he's in Echo, a show I did not like. And his stuff is great. His stuff is wonderful. So there's just something about... And in Echo, especially since it's mostly just fight stuff, there's just something about... This is going to sound creepy, but I don't even mean it this way. The way he moves. Just watching a Daredevil fight feels different than watching the choreography of most other superhero fights. And so getting to be back in that mode again is so exciting. So...

Matt Murdock, great. Wilson, Fiskeru, not so great. That's been a little bit concerning. I would take away the little bit and say concerning to me. Yeah, perplexing. Perplexing. And I'm hoping that now that he's home in the show where he belongs, it will all make much more sense. But his appearance in Hawkeye, which we were quite excited about,

was frustrating. You remember when they introduced Kingpin into the MCU with the tiny pixelated photo and a text message? That was weird. I do remember that. That was tough. That was odd. I thought it was... I thought his... Why'd they do that? ...appearance and echo was also...

Yeah. And I'm just hopeful that this is the right home for him. Me too. Me too. Why don't we quickly transition into just talking about the new series and what we know about it and how it has evolved?

Over the last few years, we will, I think, become born again. It has to be, yes. The born again title is obviously a nod to the beloved and cherished comics run, which if you revisit, I mean, much of that, much of what's core about that born again comic run is in season three. Yeah. Without question. Yes.

Certainly the name tie is there, but also, yes, this idea of the return, Daredevil's back in the MCU, and also has been reinvented inside of the MCU already before it hits its screen. So, Jo, I think we will come back to this once we get to see. Yeah. We haven't seen it yet. We haven't watched any of the new season yet. So once we get to see it.

I think we will consider what we know about the reworking that it went through and talk about that maybe a little bit more in our pod next week. But just as a primer for people. Sure. Walk us through the life cycle of this television series so far. So it originally was announced as an 18 episode season and we were all like, what? I actually can remember the astonishment. This was pre-pit and we didn't know it was possible. Yeah.

To do an 18 episode season of television in this day and age. And it turns out it wasn't. And it turns out it wasn't. Matt Corman and Chris Ord were sort of the creative minds on that one. Production began in 2022. There was the writer's strike. And during the writer's strike, they looked at it and they go, huh. Yeah. Maybe not like this.

There have been swirling rumors about what that original version was that I can neither confirm nor deny because I've heard so many different versions of what that actually was. But whatever it was, they were like, I don't want it. And so we've got to get Karen Page on the case. We've got a new showrunner. Yes. Dario Scardapane? Scardapane?

Scardapane is how I would say if I was like really Italian, but... But you're not. But I'm not, so Scardapane. You're Welsh. I am Welsh. Scardapane. And Justin Benson and Aaron Moorhead, you know, who have directed other MCU television. And so brought it in 2023 to overhaul the series, resume production in 2024. And now it's two nine-episode seasons. And among the many rumors that were swirling around the original version of the show was that...

Karen Page, Foggy Nelson were like either not in it or barely in it or maybe killed off right away or like all sorts of... What are we doing? And also...

There was a question of, is this going to be in continuity with the Netflix series? Because originally they said no, and now they're saying yes. Right. That has been quite confusing. So that's part of the revamp is like, why throw out something that people loved? Why not keep it in continuity with that? And something that did not conclude.

Like, we are desperate to pick up with those characters. To know what is happening with Dex's spine. Did they clean Rabbit in a snowstorm? No, actually, from the trailer, we know they didn't. Yeah, yeah. I mean, Dex really did start that. Like, this is a splatter of blood on the side of the frame. And then just coated. Dex is an innovator. And everyone's just following his lead. Uh-huh.

the blood spatter on on Robin and Snowstorm is like I think it's beautiful to keep that like thematically I agree do you know yeah okay anyway absolutely point being somehow Fisk is always looking at that wall somehow Palpatine return and somehow Fisk

Fisk is now mayor. I don't know how he got there. That's also a tie to, that is a tie to where we left him in Echo. In Echo. When he's like, ooh. Yeah. But we don't know if he's supposed to be the same Fisk he is in Hawkeye and Echo. We don't know how he got from the end of season three to that Fisk. We have some catching up to do. Yeah.

So I have not watched any and you have not watched any and we will be diving deep into it when we do watch it next week. But I will say from someone who I know, who I really trust, who has seen the first two episodes, he's like, he's not down on the show, but he's like, I can kind of see where they kind of are restitching it to make it in continuity with the Netflix show, which is something we were critical of with the Captain America film. That being said, I think the idea is that

You know, we're, I don't know, we haven't discussed yet what we're going to do with the screeners. They're sending the whole season. I will just be watching the premiere. Correct. I know that's what you'll be doing. And I hope to meet you on that level. But we never know about me. But, um...

But they never send the whole season. No, I that. Yeah, that's I I find it worrying. Maybe it's the dawn of a new era. I'm more optimistic that it's more like, oh, it gets good. It gets really good. And so they want us to have access to when it really gets its feet under it. You know, like this is we're thinking of seams and stitches. What would our guy Melvin Potter say? Like once you've got that vulnerability, it's like a it's like a like a like an egg. Very fragile.

Or eggs are delicious. Are all of your picks about Melvin? Melvin Potter? Yeah. Sweet Melvin. I might come up with one of my picks today. Okay. We'll see.

Not in any of yours, it seems. Okay. Should we get to it? Any other opening snapshot thoughts, big picture thoughts before we dive into our top moments slash superlatives? I think one more thing I want to say that I don't have like... Your hair looks beautiful today. Your hair looks beautiful today. I'm just so struck. You just turned your head up and the curl and the wave and the... It's just wonderful. You're a glossy shiny pony as always.

Please keep this in. Okay, so one more thing I want to say that I don't necessarily have like a bucket for in my picks here. Because I insisted that 40% of our categories go to absolute nonsense.

The categories are very clearly what was bothering you at the time when you were watching the episodes. Certainly a couple of them are. I think if people don't know the comics history of Daredevil, we don't need to get granular, but just the idea that he debuts as a Spider-Man dupe, essentially. And then once Frank Miller gets his hands on him, he becomes...

A bit more Batman-esque, which Frank Miller, of course, is, like, famous for. But, like, his own just very distinct, you know, the devil of hell's kitchen. Yes. The shadows, the Catholicism, like, all of that. And it just becomes its own very special thing. Oh, my God. The darkness, the introspection. Yes.

Paranoia? Yes. Can I trust anyone in my life? Yeah. And the splash of Scarlet against all the darkness of Hell's Kitchen. So I think, I think. You a Hell's Kitchen fan?

As a location? Yeah. I don't know that I spent much time there. I used to live there. Did you? Yeah, Ben Lindbergh and I used to live across from each other. How do you feel like this represents Hell's Kitchen? I do not believe this represents Hell's Kitchen. Okay, I mean, we'll get to that. All right. Anyway, just thinking about like what a miracle it is that this, that like Frank Miller was able to see that potential inside of essentially a Spider-Man dupe. And one of the things that Frank Miller says in interviews when he talks about what he loves about Daredevils, he's like,

how many heroes are best known for what they can't do? And he was like, the fact that Matt Murdock is blind is his most defining feature, and that is what is most compelling to me. His failures are way more important to me, Frank Miller, than his wins are. Yes. And that is what is so interesting about him. And it's such a central part, too, of his... And not a linear arc, right? But everything with...

and young Matt and this idea, classic, like wear it like armor. We love that, right? Take something that you could be, that others or that you yourself could perceive as a weakness or an inhibition and make it your strength, like world on fire. What a cool thing. And I love what you were saying earlier about the,

the action and the physicality. And there is a, just, you know, as is often the case with other street level superheroes, there's obviously like a tactile physicality to Daredevil fights. But with Matt, what, how are, how are he, his senses being deployed? Even amid the violence, even if it is someone that he, like, obviously if you're talking about a character like Elektra, the intimacy is literal, but he's,

That intimacy and that proximity, the way that he's listening to a heartbeat to try to understand what somebody's intentions are, that's just really, really compelling to read and to watch. The way that he knows what you had for lunch two days ago. I am with Karen on that. If I show up at your wonderful apartment, stay tuned for more thoughts on that. Oh my God. I don't want you to tell me what restaurant I went to because then my mind starts racing about...

What other things? What aromas are you? It's not for me. Okay. It's not for me. Joe. Yes. Normally when we do a top moments pod, we're like seven, eight. Maybe we'll go nuts today and do 10. We're doing 13. Yeah. 13. Who knew? You're lucky it's not 18. Oh,

Yeah, we could have done 18. We could have done 18. That would have been a good bitch. We had 12, and then I threw one on there. Great. So I was like, what should we cut out to get this down to 10? And you're like, what if? What if we go all the way to 13? What if? So we have 13 categories today. Yeah. As is often the case for a moments reveal or a subprolatives reveal. And again, this is like a little bit of a mashup. I don't know what you're picking. You don't know what I'm picking. Correct. Only Steve knows because we have each sent him some...

Clips. Some sound bites, but not for all 13 picks because that way lies madness. We did think, and by way, I mean you. I was like, should we do 13 clips each? And you were like, what if we didn't? I said, what if we did seven? And last night you were like, I did seven. And then I saw the doc and I saw you did eight. So I did eight. I actually wound up with 11, but I forced myself to not send them all to Steve. I didn't. But you got to eight. I have eight. Yeah. I think. I have eight.

You both have eight. I promise you. What is wrong with us? You were like seven. I only said seven. Joe, unless you're going to do more than I'm just going to do seven. And then I would have sent seven. But I saw the doc and I was like, Mallory lied. I get one more clip. I sent an update that it was eight, but I'm realizing now I did it in Slack to Steve and not on our text thread. My apologies. It's OK.

But the discipline, the willpower to not send the other two. I was on the case like Karen Page, so don't worry. The clip that I didn't send Steve that I have the most regret about is, maybe I'll talk about it more in real time, but I'll talk about it more when we get there. It's just a bunch of grunts and bangs from an action sequence. And I was like, this would have been a funny bit. There's two categories where we could have just had grunts and bangs and I opted not. Did you opt for grunts and bangs? At gmail.com? Gruntsandbangs at gmail.com.

I kind of think that is... Grunts and bangs at gmail.com. That sort of is the subtext of the podcast. All right. What other rules do we have? As we already mentioned, these are all picks from the original Netflix Daredevil series. So from those three seasons. No grunts and bangs from She-Hulk. No. We already talked about that. We'll find every excuse that we need to talk about it again. What else? Any other rules or...

No. Let's dive in then. Let's do it. It's time to talk about our favorite moments from the original Netflix Daredevil series. You going to crack that LaCroix can? You want to get another one going? No. I'm still a number one. Thanks so much. Need more water? Soon. Probably. Okay. Here we go. Our first category under which we will pick a moment is favorite villain moment, Kingpin edition. Yeah. We were going to just do favorite villain moment, but I don't know if you agree with this. I thought

We have to have two different villain categories because, of course, we would just both pick a Kingpin category. But maybe I'm projecting. Maybe I assumed something about you that was not true. Of course. But also, I never saw a version of this list that didn't have two villain entries. This was, like, in the first draft you sent me. I just want you to know this was my hardest category to pick just one. For Kingpin. And I have Smuggles, but I just wanted to let you know, like— Nearly impossible. Picking my one clip was nearly impossible. I—

It was the last one I filled in. And I ended up picking the thing that I knew I was going to pick, but it was an act of torture to just definitively make that decision. And at one point, I ended up with the thing I am going with here, putting that as a smuggle into another category so that I could pick a different thing here. And then thought, no. Collect yourself. Wow. Focus. No. No.

Breathe in the sense and sounds of the city. Okay, so Jo, you are going to kick us off here. What is your favorite villain moment? Kingpin, a dish. Okay, I will pick, I'll start with my clip. Okay. Then maybe we'll do your clip and then we'll do our smuggles. Does that sound right? Steve, is this one of the categories where we have the same pick? It is. Figured. I thought this was going to happen. Really? This is my favorite moment in the entire show. Oh my God. Yeah. I'm not surprised. Will you play it? That's why I still wear these.

To remind myself that I'm not cruel for the sake of cruelty. That I'm not my father. That I'm not a monster! Am I? Wilson, you aren't.

Same pick. Season one, episode eight. Shadows in the Glass. Shadows in the Glass. This is my favorite episode of the series. Oh. Yeah. Okay, it's not my favorite, but it is amazing. Yeah. It's up there. It's in the top five for sure. Yeah. This is the flashback episode where we find out that Wilson killed his father. Yes. I will be calling him Kid Pin. Oh. What do you think? I love it. Started doing it in my notes. Spattered in blood. He was able to wash it off. Not eventually from the painting, but on his face. So that's nice. Here's the...

Here's the thing. Yeah. I think when I think what is the Kingpin moment. Yes. I think most people would pick squelches and bangs, decapitating a Russian with your car door. I find that actually like almost unbearably disgusting. Okay. Yeah. But it is like such a Kingpin moment. For sure. But what is brilliant about the way that Kingpin is depicted in this is

You know, and he has this nuance in some of the comic runs, but like the way in which we meet him as a would-be romancer of a woman, meet him contemplating art, meet him coming back to the gallery,

Vaguely trying to ask her out, failing and just tucking tail and running. Yeah. And her being like, is that all you've got? Is the best you've got, Wilson Fisk? So good. So meeting him as a vulnerable person who desperately needs and wants something. Yes. Is so brilliant and...

is something that is missing a lot from plenty of bad comic book villain depictions. Yes. The humanizing of Kingpin, the making him this like romantic, this like tender romantic character

psychopath and then showing us his brute force later. And to your point, when you were mentioning a 13 episode season, the rollout of Kingpin in this first season is exquisite because so good. We don't see him right away. No. And you know, we're not even, they're not even saying his name. Right. Cause you're not supposed to say his name. Right. So we're building up to like, who's at the, we're building up to who's at the top of this organization. Yeah.

We hear Kingpin. We hear Wilson Fisk. We meet him as, again, an arty lover boy and all this sort of stuff like that. And then we get the squelching and the banging of the car door. And you're like, oh, my God. And even then there's time for the omelets. Oh, and the kimono and the, you know. And then, yeah. And then inside of this episode when he, like, makes omelets for two. But this is, like, revealing himself. It's fantastic.

Remind myself I'm not a monster. Incredible line. Am I? It's the am I that gets me every time. Go for it. I just think this is perfect. I think that D'Onofrio's kingpin is... We've done our Marvel villain rankings before and we kept it to the MCU, so he wasn't eligible for inclusion because at that point when we did that, it wasn't clear that this was all going to be... That was like a different slice of canon, but...

He would be incredibly high on my list. Like three? Probably. Yeah. Top three in the question is what order? Yeah. And I think that this is the perfect encapsulation of why. Yeah. Like the iconic, indelible nature of the performance. Yeah.

I think you put it beautifully. Sure, it's about the muscles and the heft and the magic suit and the pursuit of power, but it's about the...

parallels to Matt like this this this trauma and these like original wounds yeah that drive you and then the way that the desire that you have in your heart to like allow somebody into it or the fear you have of that then defines the decisions that you make moving forward and

you know, I think the way that this is edited inside of this episode, this whole origin story episode where we're cutting in and out of modern day Fisk and Vanessa and young Wilson with his father, with his mother, and hearing and seeing the horrors and the atrocities, the violence in his house, and the abuse, physical and verbal, that his father is inflicting on his family. And the way that when Wilson finally grabs that hammer, like,

Like, the way that he is repeating, keep kicking him, keep kicking him, the manifestation of that hideous lesson from his father. And so he is simultaneously, like, rebelling against this horrible thing. And also, as we can see in real time, becoming it and defined by it. And that's just such a central text that the show is interested across multiple characters and examining. And what it tells us about Fisk, that he is...

willing to share this with Vanessa. Like, reveal this about himself, this vulnerability. Not just the truth of what he did, but that question, am I? Am I? And the characterization of Vanessa is so important because, like, often in the comics, Vanessa is someone who doesn't, like, know the interior life of Wilson Fisk. We're building toward her season three, like, queen pin. Yeah. Tell me everything. Yeah.

I would like to help make decisions. Yes. You know? And so Vanessa is someone who is drawn to his power. Right. Who Lady Macbeth's her way, like, sort of through the series in a believable way, in a way that, like, feels true. I just, you know, their dinner date when she, like, brings the gun to the table and that whole conversation is tremendous and tense and wonderful. And, like,

You know, there is a bad version of this show where we are able to just go like, Vanessa, you know, over and over again, like making fun of like Wilson's constantly being like, but Vanessa, you know, like he threatened Vanessa, like all this other stuff. But it's like so human and real and incredible stuff. I love it. And, you know, the cufflinks, they're this...

in this tether, in this totem. The relationship that he has with her becomes a different kind of like anchor. A North Star, if you will. Yeah, a North Star. And I love just in general what their relationship is.

about desire. Yeah. And then again, if we look at Fisk and Matt as these dark mirrors, like, this is where I'll get into a smuggle of some of the great... The first conversation that they have in the sixth episode, so just a couple episodes before this, season one, episode six, it's the phone call. That aspect of Fisk in the clip we heard in the moment we actually picked, trying to convince himself he's not a monster, that's just Matt. Like, that's so central to Matt's journey. Exactly. And...

He just, like, we get to hear Fisk make that subtext active text right away inside of their relationship in a way that I find so delicious. You know, we're nothing alike. That's what you'll tell yourself. Nothing but desire in your own two hands. You're a child playing at being a hero. That's what makes you dangerous. It's not the mask. It's not the skills. It's your ideology. The lone man thinks he can make a difference. So the other thing I love about it is that it works both ways. Fisk is...

trying to say something withering to Matt there, but he's just describing himself as well. Because he has decided that in all of these criminal doings, he is the savior of the city. And that's the other thing that's great about it is like when Fisk says he's not a monster, he's doing it to rationalize the horrors and the atrocities that he's willing to endure.

inflict that he thinks are necessary to inflict and it makes him a villain. But when Matt does it, it makes him a hero. Why? And that gets back to like, you know, the opening note that I think you brilliantly struck at the top of the pod, like with the, it's not just Daredevil and Matt, the lawyer, like you're operating inside the law. You've committed your life to this, but then you're a vigilante. Like what does that dissonance that defines you say about who you are and what you think is right? Frank Miller and I was just sort of

devouring all the Frank Miller I could get on his... Because he really did shape our modern idea of who Matt Murdock is. And he was like, only a Catholic could be both a vigilante and a lawyer. He's like, that inherent conflict is so Catholic to me. And I was like, interesting. But yeah, I mean, and I think Wilson Fisk, considering himself a savior, thinking about him as...

a mayoral figure in Born Again as like, this is how I will, this is how I will save the city. Thinking about his father talking about being on city council and this is the only way you can have real power. Yeah.

I just think that that is such an incredible, again, I have so many questions about how we got from the end of season three to everything we've seen from him so far. I don't need all of them answered, but I need something better than somehow Wilson Fisk returned. I'm curious how much of like the Mayor Fisk Devil's Reign comics canon.

will be present here as like a active translation versus more of just a touch point. Inspiration. Yeah, an inspiration. That'll be fascinating to see. That was another thing about re-watching it. I have to assume you had the same experience. Like, and again, this was true in real time. You know, the series aired from 2015 to 2018, but like,

It's just everything in season three when he escapes and, you know, his prison is a penthouse. And then he works his way out into this press. It's like it's so Trump. It's so Trumpy. And like and like we tried with the law and there's nothing that can touch him. And like all of those are like that. Actually, I found it curious how present that's going to be. I found it quite emotional. Sorry. Like watching season three and hearing Foggy talk about like.

We can't just give up on the systems. And I'm feeling very, like, shaky on the systems right now. Very painful time. And so, yeah, that was some tough stuff. Favorite villain moment. Non-Kingpin edition. I cheated on this one. Oh, okay. I just assumed you were picking Bullseye here because you love Dex. I do love Dex. I just didn't have, like, a great scene for Dex. It's more of a, like, overall vibe. Though I almost picked...

I love the Dex flashback episode. Him finding Julie in a freezer? Was that what you almost picked? No. Driving around with her frozen corpse in his truck. No. I almost picked...

When he has the bad date with Julia, if you want to call it that, goes back to the apartment and then his freak out. The like first hand through the wall. Then it's, oh, no, the blood on my pristine white shirt. And then it's like, let me wash this out. And then it's like, no, let me break this one thing. No, let me fucking break everything. No, let me throw this knife and hit Julia, you know, Julia's face in the picture. So like that's an incredible moment. It's hard to clip.

I would say. Right. But you didn't pick it and yet you smuggled it in, which is just a master at work right here. Yeah.

That was amazing. Season three, episode five, Dex loses his shit. Before revealing the fact is no, don't. I thought that was genuinely aspirational. I loved that. I am cheating because I don't think anyone would call this person a villain. Okay. But he is an antagonist. Yes. I think we can use the villain bucket very liberally. So that is where I'm going to put him. Okay. Steve, will you play this clip? Somebody asked you to put on that costume and you take it upon yourself.

You know what I think of you, hero? I think you're a half-measure. I think you're a man who can't finish the job. I think that you're a coward. You know the one thing that you just can't see? You know you're one bad day away from being me.

We once again have the exact same pick. Same exact pick. I knew, I had a feeling, because Steve never tells us how much overlap we have. He had a little spray on his face. But he had a look on his face. It did not occur to me that we would pick the same. Because you thought for sure I would do Dex. I thought for sure you would do Dex. Well, I thought, I was like, I went back and forth. I was of two minds, and I didn't want to interrogate you about it because we want to keep it a surprise. But I was like, is this here so that we can talk about Frank Castle? Mm-hmm.

But would she call it a villain moment? Because most people would not call Frank Castle. I wanted us to be able to talk about Punisher and Bullseye somewhere on the episode. Thrilled to talk about Dex as much as you want to talk about Frank Castle. And that's what this category was for. I also, let me, I almost put a stick moment in here because I could call a stick a villain if I wanted to. I have stick coming up elsewhere today. And I also almost put

The conversation on the bench between Madame Gao and Wilson Fisk. Yeah, that's a great one. When she's talking about you can't be both savior and oppressor. And all sorts of other things. Because Gao is like an underrated great villain. For sure. Okay, I'm so sorry. Why don't you talk about this Frank Castle moment? Sure. So this is The Punisher. Frank Castle. What?

I mean, come on, we weren't going to not pick him. Johnny Bernthal. Johnny Bernthal moment. Come on, Chris isn't here with us today, but he might as well be. Season two, episode three. Season two, episode three, New York's finest. Spoiler alert, I have another pick from this exact same episode coming in another category. I really tried to avoid multiple picks from the same episode, but was not able to. Whatever you think about the Punisher series...

I think the Jon Bernthal, Frank Castle performance is fantastic. Yeah, I agree. Fantastic. And I love the Matt and Frank scenes. I'm less high on the Frank- Karen stuff? Karen stuff.

Here's what I think. Here's my conflict. Were you watching this? Yeah. I was like, wow, all the Frank and Matt stuff is so good. Fantastic. My memory of season two was that the Punisher stuff didn't really work for me. And that's because... That's also why I'm surprised because I thought you were not as high on the Punisher. Correct.

The court case stuff doesn't really work for me. And I think it's a real failure of opportunity for the Daredevil show, which should have great court case stuff. This should be partially a legal show. And they should... It's sort of a band. They lose the fastball and then just decide to stop pitching at a certain point. Yeah. I think they're probably almost done with...

everything that they want to do in these two nine episode seasons or whatever. But I would hire like the Kings who did like the good wife and else Beth or like someone who knows maybe not David E. Kelly, but kind of David E. Kelly, somebody who knows how to do courtroom stuff to like punch up the courtroom opportunities for Matt Murdock, a lawyer, Foggy Nelson, lawyer, Karen page also there, you know what I mean? Like,

Like, investigator. Sorry, Karen Page investigator. So, I don't hate Karen Page. I just think they don't always use her. Anyway. That's my, I mean, that's my hot take, but I'll save it for some other time. Oh, you hate Karen? I just don't like it. I'm just not, I'm not, I think this is an unpopular opinion. Maybe it isn't, but I'm not, I'm not a Karen enthusiast. I like Karen in season one, and I think Karen and Foggy are, like, a really good duo. Once they made it at, like, a Karen and Matt,

Sort of thing. It does not work for me. It actually, like, one of my favorite things about the rewatch, Foggy was my biggest riser by far. Because I think I actually, like, Foggy was a little tainted by his proximity to Karen for me for a while. I just said. You fucking hate Karen. She's not. It's not my favorite. But back to Frank. So this is Frank.

Early in season two, holding Matt captive. On the rooftop. Gun duct taped to his hand. Melvin's little egg crack on his helmet. On the rooftop. Talking about how different and how similar they are. Talking about the idea of vigilante justice and the idea of taking justice into your own hands. This is like one of the great moments

dark mirror examinations inside of the show. Who does Matt judge himself against? Because he thinks he's superior, right? I don't kill people. You kill people. I'm better than you. But also who then inside of that is he...

Consciously or subconsciously like afraid of becoming. And Frank just puts that all out there and makes us think about it and makes Matt think about it. And I love, again, much like with Fisk and Matt, I love with Frank and Matt how the tension and the thematically rich strands to interrogate play in both directions. To Frank, the devil of Hell's Kitchen is insufficient.

Is, as he says, a half measure, a stopgap. It's like a Band-Aid. You're not stitching anything. It's a Band-Aid, but it's not even going to stick on. You put them down on the ground, they get back up. I put them down on the ground, they stay down. They stay down. And to Matt, Frank is a manifestation of these bad intentions, right? He is a manifestation of the thing that Matt fears is inside of himself. And that obviously manifests in these conversations with Father Lance. Impulse unchecked.

Right. If you actually didn't think you had to stop. And so this is one of the there but for the grace, right? It's like a glimpse into a future of what if I didn't.

set that limit. Pull myself back from killing. And I think also it runs so counter to the core when he's talking to Frank, he's talking about this idea of redemption. What you do eliminates the idea of redemption. The idea of redemption is so core to Catholicism. And that's why the great, like a Catholic once. Yeah. From New York once. It's literally like, oh. Oh yeah. Oh, when did the path. Two boys from Hell's Kitchen. Yeah, for sure.

I love to, elsewhere in that conversation, the, you know, maybe you think it wasn't you who did those things. Right? Like the idea that you run around in little boys' pajamas, like you go home, you take it off. Maybe you think it wasn't you who did those things. Matt is living a double life. And obviously that has considerable bearing on the relationships that are most prized to him. And we'll talk about some of that as we go today. Right. But he...

makes a deliberate decision, and then later, this is like the heart and the bulk of the beginning of season three, makes a different decision. I'm done with Matt Murdock, actually. Like, I am Daredevil, and then he has to work his way back to saying, no, that part of who I am, that duality is something I need to actively hold on to. Frank rejects that. This is who I am. Yeah. These things have happened to me, and I don't want to move on from them, actually. I

I intend to be defined by them. And that is just such like a fascinating, uh, that is the fork in the road between them. So I, I really love their interactions overall. Um,

And I loved when, like, when in that, again, in that same rooftop scene when Matt's like, I didn't ask for that name. And Frank's like, I don't see you running from it. Like, I just love the way he kind of calls Matt out on some of his bullshit. You also mentioned earlier this idea of, like, some of these conversations feel like almost like you're watching a play. And that's what this feels like. You know, this is a near episode-spanning conversation, as is...

my favorite episode of Daredevil. And the way that, you know, I think I know what that one is based on some text messages last night. Perhaps. Matt is chained up for the entirety. Right. But Frank is moving around. He's doing stuff. He goes up on a billboard, stuff like that. It's just like very like stage business. And that's usually Matt's the one in that position keeping somebody else captive on a roof. Yeah. He's monologuing. And it's just, it's so...

And like to go back to the Dex smuggle, because I do, I mean, I think that people don't love that depiction of Bullseye or don't love that season of Daredevil. But when you mentioned impulse control, like this is the thing, this idea of...

Benji and his lack of a North Star. I really do love that flashback episode, which with the black and white imagery, I think is really cool. Wilson sort of stalking through the memories and the recordings and stuff, like observing and forming a plan and all that sort of stuff like that. I think that's a cool swing that season three took. No baseball pun intended. And I just think that like Wilson Bethel as like,

He's really good. This dark mirror, again, literally in the suit.

literally berserker raging through the newspaper office, through this, that, and the other thing. So to see someone in that suit with the skills, with the throwing, with like all of that, but like without the restraints. And how ready everybody is to believe that Daredevil did those things because it's like, how far away is Matt really from being that? They're always ready. They're always ready. That's true. But like, I like, again, with Frankie's like forcing Matt to confront those dark truths and that possibility. Yeah. And I love that.

So I'm so excited that both of them, both Bullseye and Punisher are in Born Again. Thrilling. And I mean, they, but Justice for Dex. I'm a Bullseye season three enthusiast. Actually, I got so excited that we got to actually see both of them briefly in the trailer. It's like we knew, but there they were. Yeah. And that felt good. Okay. Next. Next.

Sickest action sequence. How is this not the same pick? I don't know. I actually had kind of a hard time with this. I wonder if I went with the surprising selection here. What did you pick? Steve, will you play my clip? I know you're scared, but I'm here to help you. You don't have to be scared anymore. Let's get you home to your dad. Hallway fight. It's not grunts and bangs, but it is...

Pants and belabored breathing. I kept the end on that clip intentionally because I was like, you need to hear how like winded he is. Okay, so this is. He's defeated like 900 guys in one hallway. Season one, episode two. The hallway fight. Yeah.

Which to me is like a top five superhero moment in all of like on-screen superhero-dom. This is a calling card for the Daredevil TV series. It's the second episode of the first season. It is a template setter for sure. And they try to recreate it with diminishing returns, I would say. I mean, I think the prison break in season three, which we can talk about, there's a bunch of stuff that is quite impressive. Yeah.

But we're all chasing the high of this where we were like, holy shit. And even if you watch it again and again and again and you can sort of see...

When the camera swings away conveniently so the stunt guy can come into frame and then Charlie Cox stumbles out of the room and it's him now. It doesn't matter. No, it's great. He's like, tilt the door and he's using it as a diving board. Yeah. It's so good. And thematically inside, this is one of my favorite episodes. It will come back up again for me. Exciting. This kid that they've kidnapped and lured Matt with.

And we hear him as he's being kidnapped saying, like, daddy, daddy, daddy at the beginning of the episode or at the end of whatever earlier. And then at the end of the episode, we're flashing back to Matt finding his dad, Batlin Jack, and saying, daddy, daddy, right? And so, like, he is the kid. So then, like, you know, he's trying to rescue himself at the end of this hallway. And the moment he takes... We could have done, again, grunts and bangs, but the moment he takes...

He's winded. He is battered and bruised. And he takes a moment to take the mask off so he won't scare this kid. And he opens the door and it's a red light glowing from inside the door. There's so many moments where he like descends into hell and there's a red light glowing on him. And he's just like, we just hear him as we just heard him. We don't see it. We don't go into the room with him. We hear him rescuing this kid and then just walking down the hall carrying this kid and

That's great. Because he's just a freaking human who can taste what you had for lunch two days ago, you know? So, yeah, I think the hallway fight in season one, episode two. It's a great one. Is one of my favorite action set pieces in any comic book anything. Fantastic pick. It is iconic. Genuinely iconic. Yeah. I overused the word, but that's an iconic one. It really is. I love that. I'm glad you picked that. I consider picking that certainly.

This is where I was very sickest is is a is a is a important adjective. So how did you. I don't know if I totally. Oh, I guess I did honor that. I did honor that ish. I did. I was very aware that I did not think I was going to have a pick from season three anywhere.

So I was like, here's an opportunity to pick something from season three and also to highlight something that is our last shared moment with the characters who are going to be the central focus of the new show. So spoiler, I'm picking the finale fight, the final fight between King Pym, Matt, and Dex. Dex and Vanessa is also there. With Vanessa! Just kidding!

out which I will concede before I even explain why I picked it is a huge draw and demerit at the same time because I like what it does for Wilson and Matt that she's there but it is so laughably distracting when you're watching it's like just leave leave Dex is grabbing the chandelier probably like Vanessa

but here. Yeah. So I will concede that before throwing it decorative ashtrays. Yeah. Yeah. Great block on the, the gold ashtray there. Steve, can we hear my clip? Listen, Vanessa, please go. Please. You want me to kill you? No prison. You know that. Come on. Kill me. God knows I want you, but you don't get to destroy who I am.

Okay. And then the primal screaming. And then the primal screaming, nice bookend, actually, because they just, I believe in a walk-in closet? Uh-huh.

Screaming each other who among us. Yeah. You know, the kingpin walking class, it's always central. So this is, because it's a three-way fight, the action is really interesting. Like, who will be challenging whom in a given moment? The fact that Wilson has lost Dex at this point and Bullseye in the Daredevil suit is there not only to

fight and challenge Matt as he has, but he's there to take out Fisk for what he did to Julie, for this truth that he has learned about how Fisk has warped and manipulated and deployed him. And so, you know, this feels to me like

Again, in addition to like, I'm grabbing the chandelier prong and throwing it. That looks neat. Matt is there with the handmade like rope gloves channeling his father's spirit, even though all he would tell you about his father the whole time. This will come up in another pic. It's like, he didn't want me to use my fists. He wanted me to use my brain. It's just like so sad.

Wilson picking up Dax and shoving him brute kingpin strength into the fireplace, breaking his back. It's like harrowing. My beautiful boy. Harrowing to watch. But the best fights, and I think this is particularly true in Daredevil because of what we were talking about earlier with what the action can convey.

The Daredevil fight is super cool just in terms of the set piece nature of it, but they tell us something about the characters. And I think this is a great all-around...

Well, if it isn't the consequences of our actions fight for, you know, Bullseye turning on Fisk, Bullseye being in the Daredevil suit and Matt having to confront again, like what, what this, this mask of justice that I wear, like how could others turn that into something foul? How could somebody else turn that into like an ill-intentioned weapon? Matt carrying his father there with him on the gloves, but like,

the blood this is when the blood gets all over the rabbit in a snowstorm and we get to think back to the the little kid pin Wilson with the blood all over his face looking at that wall and then we think about how he looked at the wall and his prison stint and like the way that that has carried through and you know I think that Matt's restraint because he wants to kill him this is like

The closest he gets. I mean, he has told Foggy. He said he was going to. He's going to do it. And this question of whether he's going to lose that last tether to his humanity. I think. And the fact that he tells Wilson, he's like, Fisk, you can't take that from me. I really love. I think if Dex were not in that room, he might have done it.

I feel like him seeing Dex is like, I can't be that. I think it's that and also Vanessa. Because it's like that one thing of like, and we hear him talk about this elsewhere in the series, like, he has someone he loves. Yeah. And there are moments where Matt thinks, including here, frankly, like, I can use that, right? I can scare him. Never have her. Yeah. Vanessa! But also he has to acknowledge that

This isn't just the kingpin of crime. He's a person with a heart who loves somebody. Kingpin of hearts. The kingpin of hearts. And I love, you know, when Matt pulls up his mask and shows him his face and is just like, you're not going to tell anybody who I am. No. Actually. I don't know. The bargain he strikes there, I'm just sort of like, which Karen underlines in the next scene when she's like, and if Vanessa gets hit by a bus, he's like, well, pfft.

Well, again, like, it didn't really work, obviously. It didn't really work. We'll find out what went wrong. Probably a lot. But yeah, it's just like a lot of the strands of the story come together nicely in that scene. So I really, I really enjoy it. Great pick. Great pick.

I almost also picked Sickest. Yeah. The Nobu fight. That's a good one. I mean, yeah. Really good. Incredible. Season one, so good. Season one's great. Season one's great. Of course, not the last we see of Dear Nobu. Dear Nobu. Sweet. Gentle Nobu. Nice transition into our next category, which is the most egregious. Yeah, sure. Daredevil doesn't kill. People fight. Ah!

have to say this is not unique it to be fair not unique to daredevil we talk about this a lot with batman there are plenty of stories where it's like i don't kill people that's my thing i don't kill people that's like and the internet's like here's your kill count oh yeah but there are stretches with daredevil where it is impossible this is a category where i was like she's got something very specific yeah yeah yeah yeah

a number of examples. I think I came up with an example, but I was like, Mallory definitely has a B in her mind about something. I did have one. I'll go first. Yeah, go first. This is where I exercised some restraint and didn't pick a clip, but it would have been just four and a half minutes of the sounds of people dying. I'm picking this is my second pick from episode three, the episode we just talked about, New York's Finest. This is Matt

versus the dogs of hell. After Frank, so this connects to the hallway, the stairway, a hallway into, so the elevator hallway, the cargo elevator hallway into the stairwell. From the roof down, Matt has chains from being Frank's prisoner, still, he's like whiplash. He's got, yeah, he's got the chains and the gun is still duct taped to his hand. He,

I'm sorry. If, like, the character of not killing people is this sensual, you can't do these things. Like, it's crazy. He, because Frank has lured them, has to fight basically the entire biker gang. Yeah. And while it is, like, a classic daredevil hallway slash fight on steroids, it's either, like, a dozen of those people are dead or they are dead.

so permanently imperiled by what Matt has done to them that I fail to see the distinction and think it's frankly weird that Matt doesn't. Like, my single favorite moment, forget all the people he's bashing in the head with metal chains at high velocity. Forget it. There is a moment. He basically does the kingpin. He bashes the guy's head in the doorjamb, right? Doesn't actually decapitate him, so I guess that is different. Wow.

the restraint that is different yeah drops people down flights of stairs that paralyzes you kills you it does severe damage to you but my single favorite moment is when he is strangling the guy with the chain and then drops him down the stairs like that guy's neck is broken I'm sorry he's dead yep

I have a similar pick. Okay, tell me. This is my season three pick. Okay. And it's the prison escape. It's just the next iteration of this because once again, we're not dropping people down stairwells. Here's the first moment because I was like really struggling. I was like, what is my pick for this? And then I watched this fight and I was like, oh, here it is. It's when Matt jams the full stage

full syringe of whatever it was that only got a little bit inside of him. And like, and he's like, drugged him forever. And he jammed the full syringe into some guy's thigh. And I was like, well, that guy's dead. And then he dropped, he's dropping people on their necks. He's just dropping people on their necks in the hallway. And I'm like,

There are definitely dead prisoners in that hallway as Matt made his way out of the prison. It's an incredible sequence. It's really stunning, but I'm just like, there are dead people in that prison now because of Matt Murdock. Yeah.

Okay, thank you. That was cathartic for me. Great. I'm glad. Our next category is best use of Hell's Kitchen as a character. This was one where I didn't really... I actually kind of didn't follow the prompt. I didn't pick a moment. I couldn't really think of one moment. Maybe I'll think of it in real time as we're talking. But what's your pick here? I have a few... I will say the one that I... I'm going to say the one that I wanted to pick. Wanted to just talk about, like, the place as a character. New York is sort of a character, you know what I mean, of the whole thing. 46 minutes into...

Kim Baku season two episode. I'll be coming back to that one. For sure. Matt has, this actually has nothing to do with Elektra. Matt has just like had his moment with Karen and he doesn't go up with Karen because he's like, I'm Catholic or whatever. And she's like, okay. But they're like canoodling on this. She goes upstairs to masturbate. A hundred percent. For sure. She's like, she's like.

stroking her face and neck as she's walking I'm like okay yeah so they're canoodling on the stairwell and he's like his point is like I just want this one beautiful perfect moment and she's like could we not have several more anyway

it's deeply stupid. Matt fucks all kind of people. So like, I don't know why he does this, but he like says this whole thing. And then when he walks, and he's like floating in a cloud and he walks away from her and then we hear the sirens. And like, and like just hell's kitchen and the chaos and the crime and the despair and all the things that he can hear sort of just consume him. And he's just like back in that state. A clip of that wasn't really going to do it for me, but, but,

In my favorite episode, in season one, he talks to Foggy about it. Steve, will you play this clip? But after I lost my sight, after my abilities developed, I realized how many sirens there actually were. How much this city suffered every single night. You've been running around doing this since you were a kid? No. I tried not to fight, to make my dad proud, to block it out. The sirens, the fear, all of this strangling Hell's Kitchen. For years, I buried my head and turned away.

strangling Hell's Kitchen. Yeah. So I thought that was that sort of and then I have like sort of like the positive side of Hell's Kitchen because there's like Mrs. Cardenas R.I.P. but like she talks about her neighbors in their building like coming together to help each other or Claire pulling

pulling him out of a dumpster you know what i mean like there are these moments inside of the city that are not quite like let's lift spider-man's body up on on the train you know sort of moment uh new york coming together but like as close as hell's kitchen is able to to manage inside of this show you don't carry a masked man bleeding to death into your apartment on faith you knew which side you were on the moment you found me is that your is that your pick uh no it's i've stolen something from another category for absolutely no reason i

Couldn't help it. You were just like, you said Claire, so I thought I'd talk about Claire. Oh, Claire Temple. Really just wanted to spend a moment here on Matt's apartment. I felt like we would be remiss if we didn't just spend a moment on this exquisite. Beautiful. The way that the series does make sure to explain to us the reason Matt is able to afford this apartment is because of all of the- Giant lit up billboard. All of the-

the bright lights on the billboard coming through those beautiful stained glass windows that don't bother him that would bother other people. I always appreciate that we get that line because it is otherwise in a very classic TV way impossible to believe that he would live here. They're like always like we can't like

We can't like, do we have like food at the office? You know? So I just think that's such, it really does feel to me like an inextricable visual element of the show. And I love it. And it's really great and cool. And then I have the, my memory of Hell's Kitchen is that there were not quite that many water towers atop the buildings, but I have to concede that I did not ever go on to preach. Actually, that's not true. No.

I was about to say I never was on a roof in Hell's Kitchen, but that's close to me. Would have been really tough if I said on this pod, I've never been on a roof in Hell's Kitchen, and Adam would have been like, what the fuck? Call me the story. Just the roof of our apartment building. This episode is brought to you by Metro by T-Mobile. Nothing, and I mean nothing, is worse than settling for less. And we all do it to ourselves. Whether it's sitting through a bad date or staying in a relationship that didn't meet our standards. Well, I think we deserve better.

and so does Metro. They believe that instead of settling, you should get great deals on 5G devices from top brands like Samsung with no contracts, no credit checks, no exploding bills, and nada, yada, yada. That's wireless without the gotcha. Stop by your neighborhood Metro store or visit mbytmo.com slash stores and find out about their amazing offers. This episode is brought to you by Lincoln. There's something buzzy in the air. Spring is coming, the mood is shifting, and new journeys are beginning.

Say goodbye to the winter blues and experience the revitalizing qualities of driving a Lincoln. Everything about a Lincoln is designed to invigorate our senses. And the Lincoln Spring Sales Event is happening right now. Step outside and visit your local Lincoln retailer or lincoln.com to find some seriously mood-enhancing offers on current and past Lincoln models. Learn more at lincoln.com.

Hi. Hi.

Any other thoughts on Hell's Kitchen as a character? Big giant holes, tenement buildings, Josie's. Any other thoughts on Josie's? Is this a bar you would spend time in? Is this a bar you would frequent? Yeah, I would. Seems like a great place to hang out. I would go to Josie's. Yeah. Yeah. I know exactly what it smells like. Me too. Yeah. I can feel the stickiness on the floor. The tackiness on the floor. I can feel the tackiness. I can feel the soles of my shoes. You would not go to the bathroom at Josie's though. No, you wouldn't. I would prefer not to. Yeah. Yeah.

But what I would do is that I would definitely shower at home if I... But I would probably do that anyway. Next! Best use of the law as a story device. I really just wanted to make sure we talked about Foggy at some point. Not that that was in doubt. I have stuff to say about Foggy. What's your pick here? I don't have a great one. There's...

Like, in the people versus Frank Castle, there is... Which, by the way... Okay, this category is best use of the law as a storytelling device. I'm going to sort of slightly steal the next category and say, like, worst bastardization of, like, legal proceedings in a thing is when Matt is...

And questioning Frank and then just decides to, like, give an address to the jury. Like, he can give a closing argument inside of interrogation. Then Frank is like, and then questioning's done, and Frank is like, can I just say something? And the judge is like, sure.

Okay, but inside of that case, Reyes does give an opening argument that is very much about sort of vigilante justice and like, you know, when do we, where do we draw the line, all that sort of stuff, systems. So I guess I'll give it to that, but like, I couldn't find a great answer for this one. Okay. What do you want to say about Señor Foggy? So, good old Foggy. I'll find other excuses to talk about Foggy as well. I had a great time with Foggy on the rewatch. I really did. He's great.

Now, what I what I feel is likely is that what I picked here might be your pick in like another category because it is from your favorite episode. Steve, can you play my clip? Franklin Nelson for the defense. Defense. I like that. There's money in that. Oh, come on. Is that all you care about? Oh, oh, truth and justice and all that.

Damn avocados the city has ever seen!

I love that scene. It's not, it's not, it is from my favorite episode, Nelson vs. Murdoch, but it is not. Season one, episode 10. Great one. It is not the scene that I picked, the scene that I picked, but I will say incredible wig work on Foggy inside of that scene. Wild stuff. Just great. What a hair journey for Foggy across these seasons. Season one hair is my favorite. I'm incredibly partial to the

what astonished and stunned me at the time, the short hair in season three. I just wasn't prepared for it. What about the short hair plus the beard in the trailers for the new season? I'm open to it. Okay, great. Yeah, I'm open to it. He's got this long college... I think he's got the beanie on on top of it in that scene. And then they've done the classic...

classic just comb someone's hair forward to make them look younger move on Charlie Cox. It's really funny. Charlie's flashback hair is great. We get some different glasses and some ever so slightly differently combed hair and it's we're supposed to cover years. Years. So yeah, this is obviously Matt and Foggy forging their bond in law school, in college and like

I love, obviously, how for them, like, the lawyerly pursuits the work. I consider almost picking to the scene where they decide not. So they decide to leave Landman, Landman, and Zach. But I love this one because it's like, it feels really like the beginning of something where the law is not. You don't want to talk about Foggy Nelson bagel thief? No.

I always want to talk about Foggy Nelson's bagel thief. But like, it's, you know, it's not just their profession. It's not even just a calling. It's like the mortar of their bond. Yeah. You know, and I just love that. And you feel that so keenly here. We also get this really great family history from both of them in this conversation. They're sitting on the steps on campus, revealing things about themselves and why they want to do this, why this is something that matters to them. And, you know, Foggy saying he's proud of you, buddy, about Matt's father. And this is where Matt's like, you know.

all he wanted was for me to use my head, not my fists. And Foggy's like, you know, talks about how his mom wanted him to be a butcher. And it's just all really, really great. I love that butcher thing because if you, if you go back to the beginning of the season, Foggy is telling that story and Matt's like, not this one again. Like he's heard it so many times in college. Do we end up spending some, a lot of butcher time with,

than now since I've had cold meats in season three. Talk about a, oh my goodness, on a rewatch, it's like we're back in the penguin there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was wild. But then, you know, of course, like this idea of the law as a source of

is not just specific to Matt and Foggy and their bond because this is how Karen comes into their life initially. Your favorite. I'm going to try to be measured in my critiques of Karen. I can't wait until we get to the next category. Can I tell you a well actually continuity moment that I spotted inside of this storyline? Yeah. In that flashback in Nelson versus Murdoch,

when Matt decides they need to leave their fancy law firm, it's because they're inside a meeting where they are on the team defending the Roxxon Corporation. And then in season two, Elektra shows up and she's like, the Roxxon Corporation. Matt's like, what's that? I paused the episode and I...

ranted to Adam about this. Okay, great. Drove me crazy. That's actually like sloppy. That was pretty sloppy. That annoyed the hell out of me. He only said that what's that so that we the audience could find out. Yeah, but it's like you were a

fucking in the you were representing them meeting and women in Zach yeah that didn't make any sense that was very weird um very on once again go on Roxanne always nice to see Roxanne but yeah you know we have like this this idea of what it means to use the law to like fight to protect their city how they think about their role in the city just a couple bucks I stand with Foggy go go yeah what's yours Foggy but like

you know, for Matt being inside the law and outside the law, like we've already talked about, but then for Foggy, what does it mean to like really operate inside this understanding of the system and then the person closest to you, like you find out they have a secret life. You know, that's obviously a very rich text. And then the napkins, you know, we get the napkin that starts it all and then we get end of the series on a new napkin. That's all very nice. So yeah, I really,

You're trying to be so nice. And then he puts stupid Karen's name on the napkin. That's nice, I guess. Let's do the next category because I want to keep your Karen hate train rolling. So the next category is most offensive bastardization of journalism.

Mallory went to J school. We have both operated in the halls of journalistic institutions. Yeah. Major journalistic institutions. Yeah. We feel like we know a thing or two about how journalism works. We've never been inside the New York Bulletin though. So what do we really know? I don't have a clip for this because I could not possibly just pick one thing. But I did just want to talk for a second. Not season two, episode nine, 45 minutes in when Karen gets Ben's office. This is what I wanted to talk about. Yeah. Yes.

And then I would say if I had to pick one other moment, it would be in season three when Karen goes to Tanya Mills' house and beats down her door. Red Lion Bank. Fisk. And basically like harasses and badgers and bullies a source into coughing up Felix Manning's name. Like, what is this? The way that Karen goes after sources. Oh, my God. That's not journalism. No, but this is. But nor is Leslie Bibb.

As a Vanity Fair journalist in Iron Man 1 cornering Tony at a gala saying like, we're doing a... She did a spread on him. We're doing a piece on him.

Oh, man. Yeah, I know. The journalistic representation in the superhero stories is always something. But I, to be fair to Karen, this is actually, to me, this category is, there are plenty of Karen things to talk about. Pretty much every Karen has become a star reporter overnight scene bothers me. It does. But it's not just a Karen thing. I would like to talk about

editor Ellison. Mitchell Ellison for a moment here. Your number one enemy. This is just a terrible, unbelievable character. I'm sorry. Like nothing that he does makes any sense. Remember in season one, episode three, when he tells Ben, what is this? To find out what color people like because that will sell paper. Yeah.

Oh my god. That felt the truest, actually, of anything. So he just immediately lets Karen into the archives. It's like, yeah, I saw you at a funeral, so you're definitely qualified to be here. You got a lot of interesting observations. I'd like to assign you this piece.

Start digging. It's all yours. Then gives her Ben's office. What is everybody else at the bulletin thinking when Karen Page gets that office? And then she keeps it. Ben's office, which has been empty for a while, and I'm sure the people on the bullpen are like, excuse me. Waiting. Who's going to get Ben's office? And he's like, this chick. And they're like, oh. What the fuck? Really? What?

Just drives me crazy and is absurd. And I don't know why any of it happens that way. It is also very funny to me when in season three, it's like this is like a relatively short span of time. And everywhere Karen goes, they're like, I know you, Karen Page from the Bulletin. It's like, what? She became a journalist like two days ago. And you know her byline? What's happening? You're familiar with her byline? What's happening? Okay. Okay.

Again, that was cathartic. Thank you. You're welcome. Again, I was like, this one's for Mal. Oh, my Lord. Okay. There's plenty of great Karen stuff to talk about. I don't know that I'll be doing that today. But at some point, I'm sure. I like her shitty Spanish. Oh, man. I will say, I do love Karen as a character who cares deeply. Actually, this is what I fucking hate about Karen. In season one...

They're, like, setting up this, like, there's this, like, cute Karen Foggy stuff that's happening. And it's, like, so cute. Abandoned. Completely abandoned. But, like, here's what they do. She's, like, having dinner with him at Mrs. Cardenio's apartment. And she's, like, touch my fucking face. Touch my face. Okay, touch my face. And then later...

Mrs. Cardenas is like, oh, that handsome lawyer you work with. And she's like, oh, you think Matt's handsome? She's like, no, Senor Froggy, he is in love with you. Nothing is more attractive than a man in love. And Karen's like, what do you mean? And I'm like, you just asked him to touch your face, Karen. Absolutely not. What do you mean? Oh, man. Great stuff. This is really, this feels good.

I like Debra Ann Wall a lot. Same. And I really liked her on True Blood. She's so good on True Blood. I will say the flashback where she has to convincingly slam a bunch of cocaine while slurping on some Jimmy Beam. Dude, she literally says in that episode, I'm about to start getting blowjobs for a fix. Oh, no. Oh, man. Yeah, I...

That's a very important episode. We learned a lot of crucial... We closed the loop on a lot of crucial things that we've been building toward on the Karen front. You know, finally see what happened. With her brother. But when you get to that point on the episode log and it just says Karen, I'm like... No. I'm sorry. Let's talk about better times. Oh, my God. Okay. I'm excited for this category. I feel...

This was one of the categories that I was like most confident we would have the same pick. But also there's so many good options. I'm like, oh, I bet you would both have this conversation. Then I'm like, I don't fucking know. There are like 50 things you could pick here. Most thought provoking conversation about faith. Rich text here. Should we should I ask you to play the clip and we'll see if it's the same one. Let's do it. Guilt can be a good thing. It's a soul's call to action. The indication that something is wrong.

The only way to rid your heart of it is to correct your mistakes and keep going until amends are made. I don't know what you didn't do or what you should have done, but the guilt means your work is not yet finished. That was yours. That was mine. Great one. Guilt-based.

There are so many good options here. I won't go through them all. Obviously, I'm going to leave. I'm not going to go through any of them because I want to hear what your clip is. But my question to you is, is your clip Job was a pussy? I wish. That's a truly great moment. Truly great moment in the basement of the church speaking without knowing it.

Mine was from season two, season two, episode four. Yeah. Mine's an earlier one. Right after the Frank Castle, right after Matt Murdock has killed a million people in a stairwell. Slaughtered. With reckless abandon. He's at the funeral, after the funeral. And I mean, like, this show opens with this conversation. So, yeah.

Why don't we hear yours and then we can keep talking about this. Mine's from season one, episode nine, featuring the same characters. Let's hear it, Steve. Few things are absolute, Matthew. Even Lucifer was once an angel. It's why judgment and vengeance are best left to God, especially when murder is not in your heart. You're here, aren't you? Sorry. I know my soul is damned if I take his life.

But if I stand idle, if I let him consume the city, hold on. There is a wide gulf between inaction and murder, Matthew. Another man's evil does not make you good. Another man's evil does not make you good. So that's from Speak of the Devil. Yeah. That stretch, I mean, we have already made picks from episodes 8, 9, and 10 of season 1. I think we're going to hit 11 pretty soon. Season 1 rules! Yeah.

Season one rules. What else do you want to say about your pick, Jo, before we hit this one? Was this one of your smuggles? Yes. This is on my list. Also, be careful of the Murdoch boys. They've got the devil inside them. That sort of opening confessional moment. Also, the conversation. Again, it's all the same conversation between the same two people. Though, I almost picked the season three conversation when he's talking about, like,

we only see the backside of the tapestry that God has the full picture. We only see the threads and the knots and the whorls and we don't see the full picture. I love that one. But then also, I think it's season three. When the righteous succumb to sin, it's as harmful as if the public well were poisoned. When the righteous succumb to sin, it's as harmful as if the public well were poisoned. So this idea, that I actually almost put in my like Hell's Kitchen as a character bucket. Just this idea of like,

Matt on the verge. And this is why my guilt thing. This is why I picked the guilt moment. It was just sort of like when we talk about Matt on the verge there before the grace, all this sort of stuff. What is keeping him in check? And if it's guilt, if it's Catholic guilt, keeping him in check from crossing that boundary into intentionally killing people versus just oops, oopsie, I dropped you with a chain around your neck down the stairwell. Then guilt is a good thing, which is what. Yeah.

has pre-sets to him. So I think that like all of these conversations, again, we talk about the theatrical nature of this feels like a play, these great spiritual monologues, sermons almost, that we hear inside of these seasons. And I think a mistake to kill this character. So, you know, I,

Really wish that hadn't happened. Really, really, really, really wish that hadn't happened. Pretty much every scene between Matt and Father Lantham is compelling and interesting and thought-provoking for Matt, certainly, and for us at home. You know, it connects so deeply to the root of the character. Obviously, we're getting a lot of that with Sister Maggie in season three, but, like, it's crushing when he dies and part of a very...

a very tangled sequence of events with Nadim and Dex and everything. It's like, was this a price we needed to pay for those plot developments? I'm not sure we did. But in... So in...

The clip I picked from Speak of the Devil, season one, episode nine, there are a couple great conversations between Matt and Father Lantam in that episode. And, you know, we like have the kind of classic, the meeting on the bench outside of the church, and then we go inside for the latte. And then later, Matt returns and goes and joins and sits down at the pew. And it's like, how did you know I was here? If you don't mind my asking, like we get that little great moment. But earlier during the latte conversation,

Not from the scene I picked, but earlier in that episode when Matt like asks, you know, do you believe the devil walks among us? And Father Lantz tells that story. And he builds towards, so yes, Matthew, I believe he walks among us taking many forms. What if you could have stopped him from ever hurting anyone again? Stopped him.

Like, that's always the question that stopped him. How? And Matt knows that this is a check he needs to run on himself. He knows he needs somebody there to, like, ask him that. And then, so the clip I did pick, that later conversation in the same episode, Matt goes back after having gone to the art gallery. He has sought out this interaction. He doesn't know he's going to end up interacting with Fisk, but everything that he learns about Vanessa...

Vanessa. I hope that continues through the entire season, genuinely. And then, of course, like, I love the, you know, it's why judgment and vengeance are best left to God. That's just such a, that's such a, for us, like, such a Gandalf-Frodo idea. Yeah. Right? Like, then do not be too eager. So I always love when that comes up and when characters are forced to confront whether it's right for them to try to be the arbiter of some sort of order.

ultimate definitive justice. Yeah. And Matt thinking so actively here about he is when he's asking these questions about do you believe in the devil? He's talking about Fisk. But who's the devil's who's the devil of Hell's Kitchen? Yeah. And so that part of it is like really, really deep.

There's so many moments of like the devil and the angel on Matt's shoulder. Often he is like his own devil and angel. Yes. To your point, like depending who he's talking to. Yeah. Right. And that's a thing about season two that works really well for me. But yeah.

I think to have Father Lantham and Kingpin sort of as these father figures in the absence of battling Jack, like, you know, which direction will you be pulled in? The Satan conversation is so interesting because the way he starts that conversation when he's like, I don't believe – I didn't believe the devil was real. I thought it was sort of like propaganda to try to, you know, blah, blah. And then I saw the devil. Yeah.

I, my personal belief is like the first. So when he like starts out, I was like, yeah, I also believe. I also believe that like,

Because he was like, the word Satan means evil, so we're using it to unify what is widespread throughout humanity. And I think that is much more interesting than there being like a singular source of evil for my own sort of fledgling theological thoughts. And so that, I was like, I almost clipped like the first half of that. But then I was like, that's disingenuous to do that. But yeah. Yeah. And like.

I mean, neither of us are religious people. So I do not feel like it is for me to comment on the Catholic faith, but I do, I am interested, and we both have done it now, I am interested in that conversation when that, we're traveling on that journey, even still, like there's this element of,

I mean, this might just be like an incorrect interpretation and people who are practicing would say, no, that's like not, that's the opposite of that. But to me, it has a... Hobbitsanddragonsatgmail.com for Catholicism Cornered. It has like a, there's still an air of, I see the devil in the actions of man, right? That is, I think, can track still then with that other interpretation in a way that is interesting. And I love then like elsewhere in that episode when Philanthim asks Matt or tells Matt to ask himself, right?

Are you struggling with the fact that you don't want to kill this man but have to? Yeah. Or that you don't have to kill him but want to? And... Which echoes what he was talking to Claire about in season one. I like it. I like it. She's like, do you? And then later he's like, you told me you didn't believe that about me. Yeah. And like needs to not believe it about himself, but... It's there. It's there. Which means it's time to talk about Elektra. Let's do it. I would be...

I'm shocked if we didn't have picks from the same episode here. There are a couple candidates inside of this episode, though, so we'll see if we pick the same soundbite. Next category is sexiest scene. Steve, do we have the same clip for this?

No. No, only because I kind of cheated because I didn't pick any grunts or bangs. So the clip is actually not representative of my actual pick. Okay. My actual pick is how could it not be Elektra and Matt fucking in the boxing ring when he like chokes her. Yeah, that is great. That's my smuggle, that one. But I have another thing from that episode. But I picked my clip is from season two, episode six, because I wanted to do not a grunting and banging clip. Steve, will you play this please?

I want to know how you know about me. I know who you are because I watch the news. The successful apprehension of Wilson Fisk. I wear a mask. Oh, you call a mask an ass. I'd know it anywhere. You've been working out, by the way. I appreciate that. Great one. You can't mask that ass. Tremendous stuff. Yeah. So absolutely sensational. That's, you know, move over cap. Okay, what did you pick if it's not? Okay, mine is from the prior episode. Mine is from season two, episode five, Kimbaku. Steve, can we hear it?

Okay, so we have truffles, saucisson, cornichons, baby pickles. Okay, got it. No cornichons. So, when you graduate and we get married and we buy a house, I mean houses, sorry, Santorini, San Sebastian, Paris, or when we're feeling cosmopolitan, this is how we live. Okay, it's...

It cuts off a little bit before what I wanted to hear, which is the sound of Elektra feeding Matt, who is sprawled. On the counter. On the island marble. Yes. A piece of cheese on the tip of a gigantic knife. Yeah. And he's like. Yeah. Yeah.

And then they smash a bunch of crystals. And then they go and they drink champagne and they throw a bunch of glass around and then they're about to fuck, except it's all a ruse. A plot scheme, a scheme and a plot. And her extremely sharp stiletto is at the neck. Is it Roscoe Sweeney's that guy? Yes, exactly. I also have runner-up. Yeah, there are some other contenders for sure. Season two, episode seven, Matt sewing up her neck in the kitchen. Yes! In their undies for no reason. This is my runner-up too because I actually like...

I find that to be... Let me back up for a second and say, I did think you would for sure pick the boxing scene. Like, that's an actual sex scene. I mean... And it is wonderful. So, yeah, I have no notes on the slow-mo and the neck on the hand, except maybe some hygiene notes about fucking in a boxing ring. But in general, wonderful stuff. Um...

But that episode seven, like, well, the thing I love about that so much, they're catching up, right? They're catching up on each other's lives through the stories of their stitched together skin. Yeah. Like, that is an intimacy in a language only they speak. This wasn't there in college. Exactly. I know your thigh. I know that scar wasn't there. Yes. It's like the markings on their bodies are this roadmap of the history that they missed with each other. Like, I just love that. Absolutely love that. That was really, really good. I...

I think that's a controversial opinion. Not a lot of people loved Elodie Young. I don't love what happened in The Defenders, but I love the way she's used in this season. I like the performance a lot. The storylines are hit and miss for me. I kind of like, as much as I dislike Karen and Matt, I really like this love triangle of like,

Yeah. The man he wants to be versus like the darkness that exists inside of him. Definitely. This angel and devil sort of like. And there's the other triangle too because of Stick. Yeah. There's like the Stick, Matt, Electro and that great building to like was it worth it loving her? Yeah. Which is like so painful and sad. I just like really love this performance because like.

Spoiled, smug, rich girl should put me off entirely. But it doesn't. It works. She makes it work. It really works. And it is... We were talking about this before we started recording. My memory of Daredevil is that there was way more sex than there actually is. I think in part because...

Matt Murdock, the character, just canonically, like, fucks a lot, which is great for him, thrilled for him. And there is a lot of, like, sensual, sexual, evocative stuff in the series, but there are fewer outright sex scenes than I recalled. I guess I created them all in my head. Not the first time won't be the last time. He's fucking Claire, he's fucking Karen, you know. Instead, he's like, no, I shall not go upstairs. And Claire's like, but why?

And Claire's like, actually, I'm leaving. You're the worst. I can't love you. I'm so sorry. The Claire-Matt kiss is really good. But with Elektra. Really good kiss. I mean, like, two of the hottest people alive. But, like, yeah. Elektra just outright saying, oh, we also get, like, a little bit of a playful side of Matt that I find really, like, it's energizing and fun. They work so well together. Yeah, like, we can use our time doing better things. And he says, like sex. Yeah.

She says exactly like sex, Matt. It's just so great. But I love when she says, I would trade it all. This is in episode five. I would trade it all in for a lifetime of smelling your skin. Good stuff. Just someone saying that to you. Incredible. And Matt's like, my sense of smell is too strong for me to ever actually say that about someone. I smell everyone's skin. Yeah, exactly. I actually have a reason to come back to this. Okay.

I also find the ledger heist that they pull. Oh, yeah. Is one of my favorite things that happens in the show as a huge, like, alias fan. Like, I love a heist. Yeah. The two of them together. They work so well together. They look so good together. Fantastic. Gets to pretend they were fucking on the conference room table. Wonderful. Her playing drunk is just, like, really fun. Her tearing up the thigh slit so that she can kick people in the face better. Yeah.

Talk to your stuff. Really good. Really good. We can't leave the category, though, without Karen taking off her shirt when she doesn't know them. I can see her in episode two or one. Episode one. I was going to take the opportunity to celebrate that every time Foggy and Marcy fuck. Fuck Master Foggy. Marcy cannot help but comment on how good it was.

Foggy. That guy. I mean, it sounds like he's like Zayden. Just an absolute scholar in the art of the female orgasm. Great stuff from Foggy. Actually, we're going to talk about Foggy next. We sure are. In a very different way. We sure are. In a very different way. The next category is greatest test of friendship. You don't have a clip for this one. I don't.

But I do. Because mine covers a couple episodes. I wanted to talk about an arc. Hit me. What do you have? There's a lot of options for this because there's a lot of times in which the friendships are tested here. Yes. Several confessions of like murder. I murdered a guy. Are we still friends?

I let you think I was dead for way longer than he's responsible or kind. I stole your ID to break into a prison. Are we still friends? That was the one. That was a tough one. That was the one that felt like... Season three, episode five. Beyond the Pale. All right, what'd you pick? This is from Nelson V. Murdoch, obviously. Great episode. And it happens just before the scene that you played. Steve Lee plays Finn. Wait, are you telling me that

Since I've known you any time, I wasn't telling the truth. You knew? And what? Just played along? Basically. If you weren't half dead, I would kick your ass, Murdoch. Am I lying about that? No. Was anything ever real with us? Watch out, everybody! I'm blonde Matt Murdoch! I kept the tail end because it bleeds directly into that scene that you played where it's just like the two of them at the height of their boyish connection. Yeah.

Was any of it real? Very painful. Very sad. Also, like, as disconcerting as, like, you can always smell what I ate in the last, like, 48 hours or so, as disconcerting as, like, I can smell what you ate in the last 48 hours, I know any time you've ever lied to me and I just went with it. Genuine. Worst nightmare. Not only is it, like, the worst nightmare, it's...

Because how could you not then forever think about what that person... It's like a violation. Like, people... Lying's not good. No. But... Little white lies. You have the right, like, as a person with agency, to decide what you tell someone. So, yeah, it's like a horrifying thing to have to confront. And then it's like, well, what was...

Part of what is fulfilling and rewarding about a relationship is forging trust, right? So, of course, there's the sense that that is not real, but also just like what you're building. You give people a little glimpse of who you are and this idea that somebody would know a deeper sense and a true thing in full before you gave that to them. It's like, well, that's...

That that's why that like, was that even real? It's not just the, was what you told me in a given moment. Cause there's so many moments inside of that episode. My favorite episode where foggy is like, Oh my God. Yeah. I didn't know about this. Oh my God. I didn't know about that. But there was something just so internal and violating about you knew every time I lied and you just pretended you didn't. Right. Was any of it real inside of that same episode? Not that.

This conversation is so much, as it should be, about how Foggy feels betrayed. But there is a moment where he asks Matt, did you blow up those buildings? Did you shoot those people? And Matt starts crying. Like, how could you say that about me? And he's like, the fact that you even had to ask me that. Yeah.

Like he doesn't have a leg to stand on inside of this conversation, obviously. I mean like physically he's laid out on a couch. But also just like he doesn't get to be self-righteous about this. But like, yeah, there is this heartbreak of like, oh my God, the person who's closest to me in this world, which is how we would describe Foggy to him. Yeah.

Thinks that I might blow up buildings and shoot people. And it's like, that's the thing that Matt broke. Right? And like, that's what I love about, I mean, that episode is fantastic. But what I love about, sometimes I find actually in a superhero story when somebody learns the true identity. The true identity. And the other, the person who didn't know that is indignant. Mm-hmm.

there's of course something deeply relatable and human about that. You're supposed to be my best friend, my sibling, my lover, whatever the case might be. How could you keep this from me? This is such a big part of who you are. But there's always a part of me that's like, I don't know, you don't get to decide that. Right? But what's so good about this and what is really driving the hurt for Foggy here, it's not just like you became Daredevil and didn't tell me. It's

This is who you are. Yeah. You can do these things. You move through the world in a way that I didn't understand because you never told me. Like, it is a deeper withholding than just I go and fight people with a mask on. I think also a very important storytelling choice that they made is for Foggy to find him bruised and battered.

make sure to take care of him first. He's okay. So it's inside of this like care space. He's still convalescing. He's still, you know, and then it's like, but also, fuck you. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Um, what did you want to track? So, okay. I probably would have picked something from that episode. I certainly think that's a better app to be clear, a way better episode. I want to say for the record, that is a way better episode than what I'm about to pick. Um,

But in terms of the test for their friendship, the test for their relationship, I'm going with season two, episode seven and episode eight, The Trial, for my pick here. Because I think after that, this is where, again, and that I'm in like a- Like Matt just not showing up. This is unforgivable to me, actually, what Matt does here. Like-

Foggy has found a way to move forward. He has found a way to accept this thing about Matt that he genuinely does not understand. Right? And then, like, what's the bargain he makes with himself? Is it like, oh, well, this is the difference between alive and mission...

They move forward. They find a way to move forward. And then it is the biggest moment of their lives. The biggest moment of their lives. The trial of the century. The trial of the century. Everybody's talking about it. Everybody's talking about Mervyn. Everybody's talking about the Punisher trial. And Matt is vaguely alluding to this influx of cash from a secret client, but saying nothing about Elektra, who he is...

secretly meeting up with to go fight the Yakuza, to go fight the Hand, while his best friend and partner is...

embarking on this crucial thing and Matt can't be bothered to show up. He literally can't be bothered to show up. He misses opening statements. He leaves them hanging. He abandons Foggy and Karen. He abandons Foggy and Karen. And this is an area where Matt and Karen have their thing that's going on. Matt and Foggy have their thing that's going on. They don't all know the truth. Foggy, who was so wounded by this omission, is now in this awkward position of it's not my place to tell Karen this. So then there's all the like, it's Matt and Elka.

call it like what's going on it's just so messy and it's like Matt did that to them like he put them in that situation and that is so deeply selfish and fucked up and because he's in his electrospiral yeah and all of those things though Electra is like a drug for him yes I mean at the end like before she is temporarily killed yeah

He's like, let's do it. He's ready to leave that whole life behind to go be with her. Run away with her. I think the fact that what Matt does here is actually so deplorable and unforgivable is what makes it great. Because the fact that Matt is such a flawed character, he's actually not a choir boy. That's why we love him. And I really, really love because we are so, I think, rooted in

with Foggy and Karen in this stretch. But then Matt comes in in the next, in episode nine and says to Foggy, like, I'm done apologizing for who I am. And when he does that, I'm kind of like, yeah, I ride with that. I'm back with Matt. And I just love that kind of like swing. Chooses Elektra and then she murders a teen and she's like, do you still want me? And he's like, oh no, I've made a mistake. I can hear his heartbeat. Yeah. Yeah.

Most illuminating flashback. This was a, there were a lot of things to pick here. A lot. This was where I almost picked the Fisk pick from the beginning. Kidpin. And I was like, I can do a duel. They're so good with the flashbacks. The Elektra episode, the Dex episode, the Frank episode, the Fisk episode. Karen. Not the Karen episode. Not you, Karen. Karen. It is illuminating what we learned about Karen in that episode.

When you sent this over, I was just starting my rewatch. So I was like just in the beginning. So I had this list open as I was going through. And my pick is from episode two. And I was like, surely I will come up with something better. Yeah, that's a great one. Nothing was as good to me as is Battlin' Jack. This will be great. Mine will follow beautifully from this. Compliment it. Steve, will you play my clip, please? Dad. Uh-huh.

You gonna have enough this month for Mr. Morris? He will get his rent on time. You got all this for losing? Sometimes, even when you get knocked down, you can still win. It ain't how you hit the mat. It's how you get up. That's right. All right, all right. Go with the books. Can I take the ball? No, just go. This is Matty patching up his dad, battling Jack after Jack has thrown one of many fights in order to, you know, be on the take.

And so teaching Matt how to like literally how to sew up a cut and broken body is like part of the education here. Obviously, like it's how you get back up is a very why do we fall down, Master Bruce sort of like a moment. And then I kept the like go hit the books part because you already outlined this. But like Jack does not want Matt to be like him. Right.

He, you know, we see him interacting with Matt as Matt is like learning how to read Braille. Like, you know, he's always just like talking about like do your homework, be smart, study, all this other stuff. I find Jack's story so tragic and beautiful. Inside of that scene, when he patches his dad up and then he goes to hit the books, the camera just lingers forever.

on Battlin' Jack sort of hunched over in the kitchen chair. We're like out in the hallway and we're just watching him process the compromises he's had to make in order to provide for his kid. And then the decision he makes to no longer take the fall and almost knowing what that would do. Oh, definitely knowing. Yeah. And then Matt resenting him for forever. Yeah. And so...

And that moment when...

It's almost too cheesy, but it's not somehow when he's hearing them chant Murdoch and they're like, you know, and he turns around in his locker and it's just sort of like, and you're like, go, man, go. It's, yeah. So all the Battlin' Jack stuff, his, the Scarlet of his robe, like all this stuff that is in the origin story for Matt Murdoch. I love episode two. I think it's incredible. I love, I really love all of the,

kid Matt flashbacks. But it's a great pick too because it's like, how can all of that, the stitching, like not be on our minds then when we're watching Maggie stitch on Matt? Totally. Season three. Absolutely. And like... Oh, very sad. Also, I don't know. I don't know if your pick is going to be what I think it is, but like... My pick is with stick. Yeah. That was my assumption. So my...

what people call him. Stick calls him Matty. His dad calls him Matty. Electric calls him Matthew. You know, like these, the different names that people call you, like this is a, this is like a funny little like ringer lore thing is like,

I don't go by Joe. I remember this tweet. This was a meme at some point and you sent the tweet and it was like, if you work at The Ringer, Joe. And everyone was like, do people not call you that? But your Twitter handle is Joe Rother. Yeah. But no one calls me Joe. Other than like everyone who works at The Ringer. And then people who like listen to these podcasts. But like in my real life or whatever that is, no one calls me Joe. Which is like, it's fine. And it's like.

Like, you know, I've had like, you know, like have there been people in life who only ever call you Mallory and would never call you Mal and stuff like that, you know, or call you Ruben, you know. Rubes. Yeah. I have like I had like Jojo for a while was a thing. Mal Mal. Yeah. Yeah. J.R. like stuff like that. So, yeah. But you do J.R. a lot in your in like Google Docs and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, Maddie. Maddie. Matthew.

Matthew. All right, let's go back to Matt. Maddie. How Sticks is it? I'm picking Stick. Steve, let's hear my clip. Stick. Yeah? I have something for you. It's a bracelet from the wrapper on the ice cream you got me when we first met. You remember? I do. Your training is over. I can't help you anymore. What? Why? I expected too much of you.

This is devastating. This is from season one, episode seven, Stick. Another episode that I love. Season one is just so good. I really like Stick. Sometimes in season two it gets a, you know, it's a lot of black sky lore, but...

That's the thing is like season two highs and lows, but like to go from like we're going to do the street level heroes to we're doing mystical ninjas who have put a stopper on death. I feel like in season two, almost everything in isolation in a vacuum when you're considering it works. And then the question is how do they all blend together inside of one season? Yeah, it's a lot. I will, however, watch Matt and Elektra fight the Yakuza endlessly. I will watch Elektra feed Matt

chunks of cheese on the point of a... What kind of cheese do you think that was? It looked like a wedge of Gouda, maybe? What do you think? I think a little too firm for a Gouda. Maybe a... Could it have been like a parm?

Maybe. Maybe like a Robusto? Ooh, a Robusto. That's good, Jace. I think it's like a... No. It's too pale for that. Anyway. It's just the way it's like. Hobbsanddragons.gmail.com if you know what kind of cheese it was. I love seeing that appetite.

That sound that you hear, the crumpling of the... The bracelet. The bracelet. So that's the wrapper, as we hear here, of the ice cream that Stick gave to Matt. And so if we go back to that scene, the park bench, the eating of the ice cream, that scene is so good. Like, Stick, after Matt has lost his sight, lost his father, Stick in the Tyrion role and Matt in the Jon role, and, like...

Stick talking to Matt about how to embrace the world, how to get in touch with his senses. Like, what do you taste when you lick that ice cream? Vanilla? No. Every single thing. What do you hear around you? Like, what do you feel in the air? Stick is so fun at parties because he's like, milk from four different dairies and all these chemicals. Yeah.

I'm kidding. All the chemicals are a real downer. But it's like really teaching Matt some great party tricks that he'll be able to use on women later when they're showing up at his apartment and he's like, I'm going to tell you about the curry I smell. No. Oh my God. But like, so in that park scene, Styx has him. You know what they call stuff like that? Gifts. The special kind. The kind that very few people have or deserve.

And Matt says, I never thought of it that way. And this is where Matt, like, opts into this training, opts into this new relationship with Stick and with life. And then Stick abandons him. And this idea in season three, as Matt, as we find Matt, broken. Because of a bunch of things that happened in another show. Yeah.

It's like a real harbinger of the perils of connected universe storytelling. Don't ever make me watch The Defenders. I will not do it. That was set in... I know somebody who lived in that apartment building that that was set in, and so do you. Ben Lindbergh. Yeah. I assume. He doesn't live there anymore, so I think it's okay to say. I'll never find him. But this idea...

This is there when Maggie and Karen are talking like that. Everybody has left Matt at some point that everybody has given up on him. And part of what we love about Matt, as we've talked about at length today now, is that there are a lot of moments where Matt is deeply vulnerable. He doesn't grow out of or graduate beyond that. And that's that's nobody does. Right.

But there is not a more vulnerable time for Matt Murdock than when Stick does this to him here. And so it is just such a defining thing for us to understand about him and understand how hurt he is, not just in his relationship with Stick, where he's like, you left me. And Stick's like, I needed a soldier, you needed a father? Like, literally says that to him. And there's kind of like an Anakin element to that, right? Of like attachment. Yeah. And...

The judgment. But like the way that Matt is like always waiting for somebody to let him down or to think that he let them down. It's just such a crucial thing to understand about his character. And then there's, of course, that extra element with Stick.

Let me see the bracelet again. Of Elektra. Yeah. And just like, well, and then, right. And like, what did it mean with Matt, like to go from Matt to Ellie and like all of that and there to get, it's just, and for Matt to kind of have to confront that he was a mission for Elektra. It's all very messy, but really good and really sad. She did the one thing she was never supposed to do. She fell in love with him. Who? Among us. To your point about like Matt, I was thinking about Charlie Cox in terms of,

Always think about Charlie Cox. But in terms of like casting, looks wise, there's something so...

There's something so boyish about Charlie Cox's face, especially if you think about like him in Stardust, like like peak sort of like boyish features. Very boyish in Boardwalk as well. Oh, Boardwalk. Sad. Very sad. Spoilers. Something sad happens to Charlie Cox in Boardwalk. It's very upsetting. Incredibly upsetting. Very tough. But then they like give him this like stubble.

You know, the like grit on the boyish face. It's just like- Zero notes. Perfect. Zero notes. Perfect. Ah, really good. Really good. Almost done. We are. Just a couple quick ones left. We just mentioned Defenders. Most compelling, intriguing, whatever. Connected Universe tie. Because they're long before we all started talking about- Not really that long before. Whether it was possible for us to talk about it.

talking about the connected universe. Everybody's talking about Bermuda. You know, we're really in an era or we were certainly the last couple of years of like, is it possible to just watch a season of a show you want to watch or just go to the movies like without understanding all of these other things that you needed to see? And that happens. The Netflix Marvel verse hits that point for sure. I think where we find Matt at the beginning of season three is like a really good example of that because of the Defenders plot. But,

But there are other aspects of the connected universe. You get like a kind of casual like mention of Jessica Jones in a laugh, etc. There are plenty of different things that are like, oh, interesting. You're a more reliable investigator than Jessica Jones. Wow, Jessica's just catching a stray at the end of season three. But what is your favorite part of the episode?

Marvel-verse connected universe. I had a tough time with this one because I was trying to get you to clarify it and then you gave me an answer and I was like, I can't think of a better answer so I'm just going to volley it back to you. I'm just picking Claire. Yeah, Claire. It's just Claire. I'm talking about Claire. Steve, can you play the clip? I need to be the man this city needs. That's not a reason, it's an excuse. What do you want me to do, Claire? Let them tear Hell's Kitchen apart? Let them win? What you do is important to so many people. I get that.

I just don't think I can let myself fall in love with someone who's so damn close to becoming what he hates. Claire Temple. So that is from season one, episode five, World on Fire. Rosaria Dawson playing Claire Temple, mashup of Claire Temple and Night Nurse from the comics, of course.

Remember when we all thought that Rachel McAdams was going to play Night Nurse in Doctor Strange? Yes, vividly. Claire is in. First couple seasons of Daredevil. Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, The Defenders. Claire is quietly...

the connective tissue across this universe. And so it felt fun to talk about her for a minute here before we wrapped. I think ultimately the Claire-Luke Cage relationship becomes more, oh yeah, crucial and more central. Yeah. But I do, I really love the Matt-Claire scenes in Daredevil. And I love how that then builds into something larger for her across this verse. You know, she is interesting. We already, this was where I,

came down and took the quote from later in the doc when she's like, when he says, you know, you knew which side you were on the moment you found me. Claire helps our heroes feel, and I think a really crucial way, like less separate from the city that they're claiming to serve, right? Like to establish that tie to other people, regular people who are not vigilantes, who are not suiting up, but are still doing all of these meaningful, crucial things to help, to save people, to stitch someone up, whatever the case may be. Like,

she gets to see a different side of our heroes because they are often so vulnerable, literally injured, revealing their identities to her sooner than to others. But also then I think almost more importantly, she lets them see a side of the city that they need to hold on to and continue to

prize, that's like another tether that feels really important. And then they have to ultimately like see themselves at some point without fail through her eyes. Yes. And run a check like that. We already talked about it. But when Matt's, you know, the dangling and like, I, you know, I need you to know why I'm hurting you. It's not just the boy. I'm doing this because I enjoy it. Matt has to then contend with the fact that Claire heard him say that.

And like what does that mean and is it true? I think also to your point, I think when Claire – when he was like, why are you helping me? And she tells him all the stories of like this happened and they were saved by a man in black and this happened and they were saved by a man in black and this happened. So she's like your reputation precedes you and it's a good one. You're helping the city in incremental ways that I have noticed. And that's a beautiful thing. It really is. Yeah.

Speaking of beautiful, let's do our final category today, which is sickest fit. I just needed, I mean, everyone knows this to be true. But what is so true is that the black outfit is better than any version of the red outfit. And I just want us to have that conversation really quickly. Yeah. I don't mind the little horns on the helmet. I think that's great. And I know a reason that he's not in the red suit for a

all of season one is because they were kind of running away from the cherry red Ben Affleck sort of debacle. So they were like a little scared of the suit. And I don't think that like Daredevil shouldn't be in his iconic red suit. I think that is like, you know, it's important. The black just looks so good. And I will say, you mentioned that there's like a distinct season three look versus season one. Season one where he's wearing like a very clingy black shirt with like red stripes

stitching on it yeah that's the look there's one shot where he goes up on the roof and he's wearing because it's from the comics too yeah and he's wearing the the black uh like headpiece and the little tails are like flapping in the breeze I do like that it's great so do you disagree you don't think the the all black look is I okay I have a lot of complicated feelings on this

I wouldn't go so far as to say I disagree. I do think that it looks... There's something visually appealing about it. And of course, there's something that can be very silly about the Daredevil suit. But...

I think that's part of why it feels, like, important to me that he wear it. It's, like, it's not a one-to-one, but there's, like, a little bit of, like, the X-Men, you know, put him in their comic book suits. Yeah, yeah. Like, versus, like, everyone needs to walk around in black leather. Like... I agree with that. I just think, I think especially in season one when the prompt is, like, we're doing street level. Yeah. You know? I think in season one it feels appropriate because Matt is building towards this point. Yeah, yeah. That all makes sense to me. He is in it for...

two of the three full seasons other than the very end of season one which looks better that feels weird to me and like I don't I just don't I always get a little there's a little like part of me that always feels a little like oh are they embarrassed about the sort of the world they live in that and I know that's not what you're saying but I always get I rebel against that it's like lean into it I think also there is um an impracticality to it that drives me insane

It's dangerous for Matt to be going out doing the things he's doing in a fucking sweatshirt. It's insane and not reasonable. And so I find it distracting when he is for all of season three. I'm like, all right, yeah, okay.

Dex is in your shoes. He has the ropes. Sure. You should be dead at that point. At least he has two layers. He's got a burgundy thing underneath the black thing. That's true. He's layering. Two layers of cotton. That'll stop the knives. Honorable mention for...

The heist tux plus Elektra's red dress. Yeah. Also, Elektra's battling, like, pull the red thing up over her face, like, contrasting black and red to, like, match him. Should we comment on, once again, our beautiful logo here? Incredible stuff. Wonderful stuff. Wonderful stuff. Yeah. The heist fits are great. Yeah.

I am. This is where if I had included a clip from every category, I would have picked Melvin. This would have been my season one episode 11 when Matt goes in the path of the righteous to find Melvin and they fight and we get our first Betsy mention. But this idea of so I'm going I'm going with ultimately Melvin Potter's kingpin suits. The white ones. No.

I don't like the white suit. Obviously the white suit is the iconic comic look and we get there in season three. He looks so good in season one. I'm going with the season one dark suit, which I thought was a great adaptive pivot for what became then an iconic style. And I really like, I prefer the season one suits. I'm sorry, but I do. I'm entirely with you. Great, I love it. But I also just love the meta aspect of the suits like,

First of all, again, with the tie between Matt and his foes, he is going to seek out this person who made this thing for Kingpin and saying, make it for me. That's great. But also, just this idea of the hidden layer, you know, what is lurking beneath this?

In your soul, but also literally in the fabric of your suit. I really like that. I think that's great. And then, of course, he's got the cufflinks, you know, on the suit. So how could the suit not be in the... And then when he puts on Vanessa's cufflinks and he's wearing those up until he goes into jail and has to, like... In season two, when we see him check in... Check in? Is that what he does? Like a hotel? Yeah.

to jail and they're giving him his jumpsuit yeah and he has to take off slowly all the layers of his finery that suit it's a suit it's a vest it's an overcoat it's the cufflinks he looks so good and I was like this is and like you know we were in his closet he's like all of the suits everything

To contrast that with that goddamn fucking Hawaiian shirt that I know is from the comics that he wears in Hawkeye. Ugh, I don't. Bring back Dandy King. Bring him back. I support it. I have to assume that we'll be seeing fewer Hawaiian shirts on the mayor of New York. How about zero Hawaiian shirts on the mayor of New York? Sure, we did it. We made a podcast. We sure did. We talked about the things that we loved or that drove us to the brink of madness in the 39th episode.

Of a show that we love. Netflix's Daredevil. It has been genuinely fun to revisit. I think we're through most of our big prep lists. We had a few in a row that were kind of tough. This was basically in tandem doing Daredevil, Yellow Jackets, White Lotus, Severance for you. Onyx Storm. Onyx Storm. That was a lot. And Fourth Wing and Iron Flame. But we're right around the corner from Captain America. We're right around the corner now from...

And or Last of Us. And or Last of Us is like a quick one season rewatch. Also, I mean, it's just a pleasure. Oh, joy and a delight. That's not daunting. Thunderbolts prep? You know how many things? You have to rewatch. Everything.

Every Superman movie ever made. We're not away from the preface. But yes, we have gotten through this, which is, feels monumental. I agree. And then we're going to dive right back in. We're going to be back in New York. Not literally us in person, though I am going there in a couple of weeks, but on television. And so that's very exciting. I can't wait to talk about this new show with you. I hope it's good. I hope it's good. I hope it's good. Thank you. Thank you to Steve Ullman, John Richter,

for producing this episode. Thank you to Arjuna Ramgopal for his production supervision. And thank you to Jomia Deneron for his work on the social for this episode. And thank you to you, Joanna. Thank you to you, Mallory. You did a little bit of the Pam. How wonderful for you. You're crushing it, Pam. That's from a different television show. Bye. Bye. Bye.