'House of the Dragon' Episode 9 Reactions | Talk the Thrones
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Hello, and welcome to Talk of the Thrones. My name is Chris Ryan, and I am an editor at TheRinger.com. Joining me as always is Ringer senior staff writer Joanna Robinson, as well as someone who does not have a same game parlay on tonight's children's fight club, but the night is still young. It's Mallory Rubin. What's up, guys? Oh, Chris, this is treason. This is theft.

Hey, we just watched an episode of House of the Dragon. It was the penultimate episode of House of the Dragon for this season. It was called The Green Council. It was written by Sarah Hess and directed by Claire Kilner and Joanna. Why don't you tell me what you thought the biggest moment of this episode was? It's tough to beat an enormous dragon coming up from the bottom of the dragon pit and killing a bunch of commoners.

But I actually think it's the conversation between Rhaenys and Alicent actually is what stands out to me in this episode. And because of the dramatic flair with which it was written or because of the long-lasting impact you think that that conversation is going to have? I think what we got in this episode was as much of an insight into Alicent as we've ever gotten in terms of her thought processes. And I think that Rhaenys saying...

Yet you toil still in the service to men, your father, your husband, your son. You desire not to be free, but to make a window in the wall of your prison. Have you never imagined yourself on the Iron Throne? Great, well-performed, great, great dialogue. But I think...

In that final moment when Rhaenys busts out of the floor of the dragon pit, kills, let's not gloss over it, many people, but fails to kill the people committing a coup. I know.

The moment seems to be I'm trying to understand her thought process there. And I think it's because Allison steps in front of a gone and Rainey's more than anything looks just disappointed in her first, like standing in front of her fail son in that moment. And so I think it's just sort of like you toil in service to men, your father, your husband, your son. Like that's that's the dynamic at play here.

and the question of what it's going to mean for Alison and her side going forward. Again, it's hard to argue with the dragon though. Mallory, what do you think? Mallory, what would you say? I can't believe we made it more than 10 seconds into this podcast without talking about Laris. It's not actually my pick.

pick, but I can't in your consciousness allow us to go further without saying Laris foot guy. Yeah, I think that Joe's pick is a great one. I can't wait to spend 30 minutes of this podcast talking about how Rainice is our new Obi-Wan Kenobi just leaving Vader out there to go conduct his galactic horrors. Yeah, but you know,

The Green Council keeping Viserys's death a secret for long enough that Aegon could be crowned King of Westeros in front of tens of thousands of people, despite Rhaenyra being Viserys's... Well, probably now just about 5,000 after the dragons. Yeah. It's true. A good couple thousand at least are off the board there. Population control, you know? Despite Rhaenyra being Viserys's stated chosen heir for two decades, is that...

A notable thing that happened in this episode. Don't think we could really overstate the significance of that. Yeah, I mean, in some ways, I think you could argue the series just started. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, for like your basic understanding of the Dance of Dragons and like the Targaryen Civil War and everything else that like you kind of have maybe skimmed over as you were going into the series. It starts now. What's your pick, Chris? Yeah. Is it your time with

Eric and Eric? I think it was Kristen Cole wearing the same hat I wear in Los Angeles between December and March. No. I think it was definitely... It was definitely the foot stuff. That was like... There's my guy. Because you know what was cool about that? We're not cool, but what that was was I was like...

Game of Thrones still has it. You know, Game of Thrones still has the capacity to surprise, you know, and that's really all I can ask for at this late stage of my life and the twilight of my Game of Thrones watching days. Just keep keep shocking me, baby. I love it, you know, because they come through with like kid fight club with with kids with their like teeth filed down. You're like, yeah,

And then you're like, oh, but the feet are out. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I was wondering what's in this for Laris. And then we find out. Why don't I recap the episode and we can get into dragons bursting through the floor and feet and everything else. Uh,

I have a bunch of Smith's quotes here because I was going to do a King is Dead, but even though their album is called The Queen is Dead, but the king is dead, boys. Thank God that Talia, the Walter Cronkite of Westeros, has passed the word to the Hightowers so that they can start a civil war. Seems like the small council has been planning for Aegon to take the throne from Rhaenyra

all along. All except Lord Beesbury, who makes a loud protest before Kristen introduces him to the small council's retirement plan. Worth noting also that Alicent was not in on this long-term planning despite being the queen. The small council makes a plan to kill Daemon and Rhaenyra, prompting a change in Kingsguard leadership.

Problem with all of this is Aegon is nowhere to be found. So Kristen and a really nondescript blonde guy with an eye patch go out into the red light district to look for him, as do two dudes both named Eric. No, I will not be learning to distinguish between the two of them. We get a real Rick Steves guide to Silk Street. It's brothels. It's adolescent fight clubs. Still no Aegon. The Eric brothers are having a crisis of loyalty when Eamon and Kristen decide

talk about how hard it's going to be to be incel to teachers' pets. JK, I kind of like these two together. Allison goes to lobby Renice for Driftmark's support, appealing to her grief over being passed over for the crown. Renice flips the script, saying the quiet part loud that Allison is the one who wants to rule Westeros.

Back in FBS, what we call flea bottom. If you, if you're a local, uh, Masaria pops up having taken absolutely no notes on her accent and demands a trade from auto high tower. He can have the Prince back, but he has to end the traditional UFC for kids night at the local dance hall. The Eric's who are working for auto find a gun, but there's some division in the Eric camp.

When Kristen and Amon, who are working for Allison, confront them, there's a sword fight and one Eric leaves the other to fend for himself. I got to say, poor form from Eric. Not really living up to the name Eric, in my opinion. Speaking of division, Otto and Allison are disagreeing about how to arrive at the same goal, which is the transfer of power to Aegon. Otto doesn't mind breaking some eggs to make an Aegon omelet. Allison wants to offer her near terms and spare her life.

Laris and Allison meet to discuss the news that Talia, the conspicuous lady-in-waiting, is actually a big snitch. And Allison takes this in, and then Laris jerks off while looking at her naked feet. Game of Thrones, still got it.

One of the Eric's secrets, Renise out of town. Aegon asked the question nobody thought to. If dad wanting me to be king, why didn't he mention it in some time over the last 20 years? He slowly warms to the idea of being king when he sees a million faces and rocks them all at his crowning. Everything is going great, but then Renise bursts through the floor on the back of a dragon. She has a chance to incinerate the usurpers, but chooses nonviolence and flies out the door's

only after killing probably 2,000 people. Presumably, Renise is on her way to tell Rhaenyra the good news. That's where we're at. We have not seen clips from next week, the season finale. Remarkable. Thank you. Remarkable work. I try to be really, really... You should be king. You lived all the way up to my hope that you would lean into not telling the difference between the two, Eryx.

Oh, the Eric. The show did you no favor. Molly received no fewer than 20 texts from me trying to like boil down how I felt like we could tell the difference between the two Erics in this episode. It's honestly like offensive to my intelligence. Like I'm just not going to waste time trying to figure these two dudes out. One's on the fence. The other's into...

the blacks, right? Yeah, it's a two brothers divided, household divided, Eric and Arik. Eric with an E is the one who bounces and has been... But you don't know that unless you have like closed captioning on and you can tell which one of them is talking, right? Or listen to House of R for three hours. Yes, of course. They are wearing...

very slightly different cloak. So the piping is distinct. And once you hear Eric with an E for the first time, voice his doubt about Aegon, then you can track, oh, he's the one with more of the wide piping on the outside, more of the gray cloak.

Eric has more of the brown cloak and the thin piping. Honey, what are you doing in there? Oh, I'm just trying to tell the difference between two guys who just showed up on this ninth episode of the show and are completely determining where things are going. Oh, you got a scene with Allison and Eric with an E last week. Chris, you're good. That's right. Mallory Rubin.

legitimately has a text message for me saying, I think it comes down to the cloak trim. Good. That's how you tell the difference. And it's like, they could have just given, why don't you give one of them a braid? Why do they both have low man buns? Why doesn't one of them have a shorter beard? Any, any effort. Anything. Can I talk about one last thing about Eric and I? Yeah, of course.

Basically, Eric has been Agon's like sworn like Kings guard. And he's just like, try and tell his brother, this guy sucks and shouldn't rule. Have you heard of Kings Fight Club? You thought this guy was bad in his chambers. Wait till you see him when he gets out in the flea bottom.

Joanna, one of the things that really leapt out at me about the beginning of this episode, I actually thought this episode was pretty entertaining in the sense that it let Olivia Cooke, pun intended, and this is a real showcase episode for Olivia Cooke running around trying to align different factions with the way she sees the transfer of power going. But I thought it was notable that nobody...

Nobody was like, hey, what did Viserys totally say? Right? Like, they were just like... Like, obviously there was this intention by the Greens to probably install Aegon in the first place. But we didn't get into any of the...

sort of dreamy poetics of Viserys' last words. And I wonder whether that's coming in the next episode. Obviously, we don't know. But like any kind of interrogation of this last second change in succession plan. Right. I expected Alyson to grapple with it a little bit more, but she was just sort of like immediately all in on like this was his dying wish. And so I'm going to fulfill it. And I was surprised by that. I do think she probably should have taken the wording of it to her mind.

um, daughter Helena, who is a, who is an expert in, in weird prophecy language. And maybe Helena could have helped her, but, um,

No, I mean, what I like about it is that it's challenged a couple times, not examined closely, but sort of like, you know, when Beesbury's like, I'm sorry, what? He's like, I know this guy. You were the only one there. I knew this guy his whole life. Yeah. Yeah. And Aegon's like, my dad hates me. What are you talking about, mom? Like, what are we talking about here? So I do like that a bunch of people are like, isn't it convenient? Yeah.

that this happened. And I think it is too, I think the people who aren't interrogating it more like Otto, et cetera, are not doing so because it just like, they're like, well, this helps. We don't have to convince Alicent. Viserys did that in his Milk of the Poppy Haze. But yeah, it would have been nice if someone had been like, Alicent, you know there are multiple Aegons, right? In the history. Like,

Are you sure there's two Agons currently living in our family? Are you sure he was talking about that one? So Mallory, what did you make of the way in which this news traveled around? And I guess the other thing that I was really struck by was, you know, this group of on the small council, just being like, that is super convenient because we have been planning on this whole, the whole time. Right? Yeah. I mean, auto goes full Boromir. It is a gift full little finger up in the veil. I have brought you a gift. Yeah.

He has left us a gift. So they have no motivation to interrogate what Allison's is telling them, Chris. Like, I think that the characters who are inclined to do that, Beesbury, his head is turned into a jello mold by Kristen Cole. That doesn't inspire...

a lot of others to act in kind, even Sir Harold, who folds up his cloak and exits, you know, the kind of Barristan Selmy move. Obviously, Selmy was cast out and then made his stand, whereas Harold is asked to do something that he finds unsavory and refuses. There are challenges involved

to what is unfolding. But broadly, this is a manifestation of the structure of the episode, which is that the actual opponents, the true, true, true opponents, are not in this episode of television at all. The penultimate episode of this season. You know, Rainice is a real exception there as somebody who is...

truly not aligned. And I think in some ways it's interesting to have dissension in the ranks, given how much of this story hinges on, you know, Joe and I have talked about this a lot this season, the George R.R. Martin fascination with that Faulkner idea of conflict inside the human heart. There's a lot of that with Alison in particular inside of this episode, but it's ultimately a debate of degree in

inside of this episode, inside of the Green Council, inside of the Kingsguard, inside of the Cargile twins. You have people who are working toward, and Eric obviously bounces, but people, Alicent and Otto, encapsulate this divide in the episode, who are both working toward finding Aegon and making him king. The outcome that they're pursuing is broadly the same. The particulars,

How many other people should we kill are what divide them? So not a lot of people are there are interested in challenging the exact language. It helps them. I agree with that. And I do think it's really fascinating. This is like an all team green episode, but I do think that division that like, cause we get not just the Eric and Eric, Eric and Eric brother versus brother there, but brother versus brothers, Amen and Agon. Right. And then we've got within the Kings guard, as you mentioned, that division, like, um,

And Eric. And Eric and Eric. And spy versus spy, right? Masaria and Laris. So I think to try to show us that even without Rhaenyra there, and what I like also, what this episode captures really well is this moment in the book where when Aegon is crowned, the crowd is sort of like,

What? Yeah. But they're like, okay. Yeah. Some of them are like, you know, or like some of the Lords are faithful to Rhaenyra, you know, and get hung and some of them aren't. And so I think it's really smart to show us that even here at the center of the green power, there's all these fractures. And I do want to just circle back really quickly because I'm so glad that Mallory invoked our guy Barristan Selmy because I just want to shout out the ways I think

it's very cool to quit the Kingsguard because I feel like Harold Westerling kind of quiet quit a little bit. You know what I mean? Very neatly folded up his cloak. He rejected his return to office. Yeah. Barristan goes...

here boy throws his sword on the ground melt it down and add it to the others yeah and Sandor Clegane iconically says fuck the king's guard fuck the city fuck the king so I just have notes for Harold on his like exit words I think we could have gone saltier if we wanted to but I can't

I can't believe that like Kristen Cole gets a promotion out of that, like drops a guy's head on a on a giant marble and gets a promotion out of it. So I need Kristen Cole to go to some anger management classes.

I need it. One more note on the actual death of Viserys and what happens. I want to agree with both of you in the sense that one of the criticisms of this show this year has been the leaps forward in time and sort of a disjointed timeline. And I thought that the show benefited from a very compressed timeline

everything in your seeing matters like from scene to scene and from moment to moment, like what happens in this scene is going to affect the next scene and not, it's going to affect something that happens six years from now or 10 years from now. I thought that was like a very good energy for this show to have.

There was something very subtle about the way in which it sort of discovered that he's dead, where I was under the impression leaving last week's episode that Allison was aware that he had died. Was she pretending to have not known that? Or was did you guys think that at all? Or was that just my misread of that? I think she gets her marching orders and then we get the final blinks and wheezes from Viserys. So like, but she doesn't think he's going to be like awake the next day when she hears that, right?

Like, she doesn't think he's going to be alive the next day. She's like, oh, great. These are the ultimate last words I wanted to hear. I'm out. She's not like... I can't imagine that she's shocked that the bag of bones that she's been married to for, like, you know, the past 20 years is not here anymore. But what I do think is interesting about Alice in this episode...

First of all, there's massive differences from the book accounting to this episode. Allison's concern for Rhaenyra is completely show-invented, and we've been talking a lot about how Rhaenyra is getting sort of a hero wash. And so I think giving Allison a little bit of a hero wash in this episode, because in the book,

She says stuff like, mayhaps the whore will die in childbirth because, you know, Rhaenyra is pregnant. Like, that's book—what book Alicent is doing in this moment. Or at least what the men who are passing down the history tell us, Alicent. I thought it would have been kind of down to hear that. That would have been sick. Right. But I think that—so, but I think in this version, like, the Alicent that we see cry a couple times, I think she's genuinely—

sad for Viserys to be dead. Yeah, for sure. And also, and I hope this really came across you, Chris, because this is very important. He smells awful. And there's like one sequence where Alicent is crying, but also mostly just has a handkerchief shoved up to her face because they just let the king rot for a while. 9,000 candles not masking the stench of the rotting corpse. I have to say, though, if we're being frank,

How could he have smelled while he was still alive with just 5,000 gaping sores on his body? Yeah, that's the thing is that like, you know, you're talking about something that's already dry aged, you know, like, um,

Mal, let's talk about the dragon in the room, which is Renise bursting out of the floor like we talked about in the beginning of the podcast on the back of her dragon named... Red Queen. Maelys. Maelys. God. Love to see Maelys get into action. Chris, you were about to say Maelys, right? It was between that and like three others. But, you know, you have that moment where Renise comes through the floor and...

kills a lot of people doing so. And then is just on the precipice of ending this whole thing right there. She can burn up Alicent. She can burn up Otto. She can burn up Kristen. She can burn up Aemon and Aegon. Like, Alicent is...

getting her soul ready. Like, she's just like, here we go. Eyes closed. Yeah. Why does Renise let her live? I don't know the answer to the question. And I think it's pretty strange. I really like Joe's read from the top of the pod about

the disappointment that she would be feeling looking down at Alison moving into that protective stance, allowing all of this to happen. And I'm excited to talk more about Alison and the dissonance that she is experiencing and what is motivating her various decisions, including the appeal that she makes to Rainice and Rainice's response. I...

I think that there are moments like this in stories and sometimes the answer is as simple as because the story has to unfold from here. Right? Like if Rhaenys says Dracarys and the Red Queen incinerates the entire green faction, then there's not a Dance of the Dragons, there's not a House of the Dragon, there's not a show. But then my question becomes why put the character in that situation other than like it's cool, right? It's cool. It was definitely cool. Hey, Beast Beneath the

board. We heard it last week. We heard it again from Helena this week. We have a couple prophecies paying off in this episode, including, of course, Viserys' prophetic dream to Emma in the first episode. Our son was born wearing Aegon's iron crown. Not their son, but here's Aegon and his iron crown in every line of that prophecy. The bells tolling, the

the dragons roaring, all of that comes to fruition here. So we should be tracking Targaryen dreams very closely. The things that these characters are saying in their prophetic visions are coming true. Rhaenys isn't just escaping on Maelys. Like she's changed outfits. She's got her war kit on. She is ready. She's in armor. She is readying for battle. And Rhaenys,

The very dramatic upending of what is happening there, this absolutely farcical coronation that is also incredibly smart and savvy from Allison's perspective. She understands what lends the air of credibility and validity, every symbol around Aegon in that moment.

Right. The septon is performing the ceremony. He has Aegon the Conqueror's crown on his head. He's holding black fire. He's got the dagger. All of this. And Alicent, who's rejected a lot of these Targaryen symbols, is the one who says this is important. And all of the people of King's Landing, the one that Masaria likes to talk about to Otto, right? The people, they have to be there to bear witness to this. This has to be official and sanctioned.

Rhaenys is upending that in full by saying, here's the real Targaryen power. And,

And you still don't understand that. But I think Alicent is starting to, and that's interesting too, because one of the parts of her pitch to Rhaenys is your dragon. Yeah, she's doing dragon math. Your dragon swings the math in a fundamental way, which is a huge, huge, huge change for Alicent's position. But I think just that dragon erupting from the earth and the fear that every single person, sword in hand, crown on head or not, feels in that moment is the point of that sequence. If you're on a dragon...

you can do what you want, including fly away. Yeah. I mean, I love when Mallory is listing all the items that are there, that is essentially like a paraphrase from Fire and Blood, which George R. R. Martin calls that every visible symbol of legitimacy, right? The crown, the sword, all of that sort of stuff. But

Yeah, Rhaenys is being like, this is the real war, by the way, and this is what you have invited by doing this. Like, I don't think she, because she's a Targaryen, I don't think she actually cares about killing a bunch of commoners. But if she did, she's like, this is the point. Yeah. You say this is for the realm. This is what's about to happen to the realm. A bunch of dragons are about to squash a bunch of people because of what you're doing here today. Look at what you've unwoken. For this guy?

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The sort of presence of, for quote unquote people, they have a bigger role in this episode. I think if I, I think we've talked before about there's a sort of limit to the perspective of House of the Dragon that I think Game of Thrones pushed past where a lot like of Game of Thrones took place before.

in and among the people who were being ruled by the people we were watching. You know, I mean, even if it was Tyrion just going out and about into Flea Bottom or if it was getting to go see the North and getting to go see who Robb was commanding and why they might be into him and stuff like that. I thought it was always really effective to be able to show

the totality of, of this place rather than just the, the more, most powerful people. And they've been kind of absent, uh, for the most part from house of the dragon, they get invoked a couple of times in this episode, you know, uh, Alison specifically is really like, seems to be like, it's not that I want my son to be the king. It's that I think this is best for the realm. You know, this is like what we have to do for the people, uh,

And or at least that was my feeling of when she's talking to her father. And then on top of that, you know, that Masaria scene, while somewhat unintentionally hilarious, is also about like, you guys have to do certain things to keep the peace here because like the way in which you treat everybody here is going to lead to problems down the line. Like you can't, you can't have us like fighting one another for your entertainment indefinitely and not expect anything.

some kind of consequences. The funniest thing about, not funny, but what happens when Renise bursts through this floor is I want to know whether or not anybody's going to be like, yeah, you guys killed a bunch of people making your escape. We're throwing our lot in with the Greens. The Greens have the sort of popular, I guess, momentum of the people of Westeros behind them. I mean, it'll be interesting to see whether they grapple with it. It's not so much a question as it is an observation. If you're going to introduce...

quote unquote, to the show, you do have to sort of like think about what happens when a bunch of them get killed or a bunch of them get lied to or whatever. And I think that's been a reasonable criticism of the show that it has felt a little suffocatingly insular to the Targaryen family and all that. And as you say, if this is the start of the war, the start of the dance, the start of the story, we're definitely going to be spreading out beyond the Red Keep, beyond King's Landing more as we go forward.

But I do think the attempts to introduce characters like Massaria and Talia, et cetera, which who could represent that faction of that slice of the populace.

Has been sort of some of the least effective stuff that the show has done. And I end up missing some of those characters that we got that, you know, that's a huge missing link from Thrones. But there is opportunity going forward for them to do a much better job of that.

But I feel bad that I complain about characters like Talia and Miss Aria when, like, that is the show doing what I'm asking it to do, which is give me more of the people, you know? I think, though, that I really agree. And I think it's the other half of Chris's point from earlier about,

The absence of the time jumping in this episode, you're really contained in this finite period of time. You're moving from conversation to conversation, moment to moment. You feel the consequences of those decisions in a way that's effective. The problem is that the time jumping before led to this, which is like so many, so many of the central figures in this episode are not characters we've spent any meaningful time with.

And they have a huge bearing on what is unfolding. So, Misaria having what is intended to be one of the really seismic, not only plot moments of the episode, the conversation with Otto, everyone bearing witness where that leads everybody on their hunt, but this...

speech about ethics and morality. And power. Yeah, and power. We've had a couple moments with Misaria, certainly, where we've gotten to glimpse the way that she thinks about these things, including, you know, probably most germane for the setup here. Yeah, three moments. The conversation with Damon in episode two about what the Targaryens and these people in power think that they can do and her pursuit of liberation from fear. And then there was the fake baby on the bridge, right? Right, but like,

Yeah, this is not a character who has played a meaningful role in the story. Talia has been in the show, but do we know anything about Talia? Do we know a single thing about what's motivating Talia? No. Eric and Eric, we've already gone through the bits there. They have...

A huge amount of this episode is on their shoulders. We've spent almost no time with them. Even in the small council, in the green council, I think it is fascinating and important to show that there's debate and disagreement inside of the same camp. It would not be an interesting story if it was simply greens versus blacks and everybody inside of both of those teams agreed on everything. Some of the most compelling moments in Game of Thrones ever are when...

John and Sansa are characters who are supposed to be online. John and his mother. Or Robin's mother, yeah. Yeah, Robin, Kat, exactly, who are deeply invested in a shared outcome are incredibly opposed in a specific moment. That's theoretically strong storytelling. Ironrod, Tylan, Orweil, the characters who play essential, essential roles in what is unfolding in this plot coming to light are...

not characters that we've spent very much time with on the show. So I think that the jumping around, like we could have gotten more time with those characters in the moments in between to better understand how they came to occupy these current positions. And also, of course, in the time jumping, we could have crucially witnessed the first moment where Lara Strong said to Alison, I'll tell you what you want to know if you let me jerk off while looking at your feet. We didn't get to see that either. Should we just do that? Should we just do this now? Sure. Um...

The patience and restraint that we have collectively shown. I'm astounded. So, Jo, this is not canon. Am I right? It is now. Just tell the listeners that this was the first thing you texted us. Let's just go behind the curtain. Yeah. Was this canon? Is this in the books? It is the book stuff canon. Yeah.

So I found this whole thing fascinating. I would say that for them, I would say they have put Allison in a lot of very contemporary situations over the course of this season, both in ways that make her sympathetic and ways that make her seem villainous. Obviously with the chambermaid that her son assaults the week before where she's like, I believe you, but who else would believe you? And like with the paying her off,

There's obviously when she's played by Emily Carey when she's younger, the just grotesque scenes of her being in bed with Viserys and the look on her face. She's been surrounded by volatile, unstable men for most of her life. Apparently they all have very specific sexual proclivities. But I was kind of fascinated by this episode specifically because I thought that while

she's probably like sitting there at the end of the night, just being like, how did I draw this lot in life that these are the guys around me? At the same time, she knows exactly how to play them. So she appeals to Kristen's white knighting. Yeah. And he's like, you know, if you've ever... Take everything you feel about me and go do this mission for only me, not for my father. And then with Laris, you know, I always just kind of like, I guess I can see what's going on here. Like, you know, he's kind of blackmailing her a little bit because he...

Killed his father and his brother for her. They both kind of have equal amounts of dirt on each other. He helps her. She helps him, I guess. And then I was like, oh, yeah, this has an entire other layer. And so when you say, oh, Joe. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think I think that's so astute. I think.

First of all, what's hilarious to me is that Mallory and I both noticed that Allison took her shoes off in the last time we saw them have dinner. But we were like, oh, what an interesting way to show that they're comfortable with each other. That's what I thought. I was just like, it's been a long day. She's been running around. What sweet summer children we were. And then when she did it here, I was like, oh. As soon as she started, I was like, oh, no. And it moves in stages. Yes.

The stocking defeat first. The stocking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then you take the stockings off. Then you put them in the place of prominence. Then you proppel mob turn to the side. On the sheds. Yeah. Yeah, make sure they're in the light. Okay, so here's the thing.

That I think is interesting about Allison. It's like the first lesson her father, Otto, teaches her that we get to see is put on your dead mom's dress and go seduce the king. And this is our path to power. Right? So Allison understands that her best path to power is somehow sexualized. Right? So...

She is... There is definitely a frisson of that or maybe even more of that when she's talking to Kristen, who then later is like, every woman is in the image of the... I was like... Yeah. Also, all women see her. I hate him. That was astounding. When even Amand is like, okay, man. Relax. Yes, exactly. R-E-L-A-X. So her...

manipulating, if you want to say that, or whatever, Kristen that way, and her doing this terrible foot stuff with Laris. And I love the way that that's shot, right? Because we start to see exactly what Laris is doing, like the hand goes under the tunic or whatever. But we don't have to watch that. What we're watching is her face and her extreme discomfort, knowing that this is like

what she feels like she has to do in order to get whatever scraps of power that she can grab. And then within this episode, even when she has her showdown with Otto, she's like, we were never aligned. I win, you lose. In this kind of...

you know, confusing game that we're playing here of grab the king from... A game of Thrones, even. Yeah, one might say. And he says, you look like your mother. Yeah. You know, and it just takes us right back to her as a teenager. Put your dead mother's dress on. I enjoy how twisted this episode was. Yeah, and goes through his king. So I do think that they're... Like, Alison understands that her path to power is connected to her sexuality. What I like about that in this episode is that it's not...

she like fucks Kristen Cole and she fucks Laris. It's much more like subtle and by degrees with each of them. Because I think if it were...

Thrones and Cersei, like, Cersei would just have sex with who she needed, you know, to get them to do with... And then have somebody else be killed whenever she wanted, you know? Right. And they're, like, this is even, like, stickier and weirder what's going on with Alison here. But again, it's her trying to carve that window in her prison. How do I find power given that I was sold off to this moldering king and have to be, like, pinned under him in bed? Okay, I can move the things this way and that. And I just, like...

I have question marks about this episode, but I think that Kristen, Laris, two absolutely unhinged dogs that she barely has on a leash...

being her team is so interesting. Those guys should get an apartment together. That would be cool. Well, what I really like is I do not think they're, they each think they are Alison's most special boy. And I can't wait to find out. I can't wait to find out when they like understand. And you can definitely see a little princess bride action happening where one's like got the wits and the other's got the strength that I would love to just see how they decide, decide who's best there. Mal, I have to confess. I,

I don't know that I understood. I'm sorry. Do you want to keep talking about feet? Well, I was wondering if you were going to keep talking about feet because we just were. And then you said, I have to confess. And I had no idea where we were going with this, but it's a safe space and you can share whatever you'd like. I didn't quite grasp the point of the dueling find Aegon missions. Other than I assume Otto would have been like, I got Aegon and now I can just have Rhaenyra murdered.

And Allison was like, I've got Aegon, now you have to do things my way. I think that's correct, ultimately. And, you know, okay. So think back to Game of Thrones. Little show called Game of Thrones. Ever heard of it, Chris? I can't. I used to just say I've never heard of it. Now Joe and I, you know, we've had this beautiful Rings of Power journey. And I just want to say, I'm your son-in-law.

Renly. Uh-huh. In season one, what was his response as the drama is unfolding? Protector of the realm or no, he who holds the king holds the kingdom. So while I think there will be plenty of people who watch this episode and say and feel it lacked a certain, it felt a little inert in the dramatic tension front if people who are ultimately working toward the same goal are the ones competing. Yeah.

There is a fundamental truth to that, though. Whoever is able to actually get Aegon and position him and control him is able to make that call. And so the auto-Alicent exchange that you already mentioned...

Where they can't quote Cersei in full because she utters the famous, when you play the Game of Thrones, you win or you die line a couple centuries in the future and instead have to say, this isn't a game. It's like, actually.

Otto, flat out, they talk about this in the Green Council scene, and Alicent outlines it as she is coming to grips with what the plots actually have entailed. They're going to imprison them, but really, they're intending to kill them. Otto wastes no time mentioning, of course, we should not forget, this isn't just about Rhaenyra and the challenge to the throne. He cannot wait to go after Daemon, who he cannot wait to mention by name. Still hates that guy. But when Alicent

Is is trying to offer terms, is trying to find a peaceful outcome, as she says. Instead, I think it's worth asking why she thinks that's possible and if she really believes it is, because I thought that one of the most important. She had five minutes at dinner where they were friends again.

she had decades of basically like nuking that person and every time she was like hey maybe like my son can marry your daughter and she would just be like fuck you and then they had like two minutes of like you know what I miss you you're a great gal by the way it's about to go so bad here but maybe I'll throw myself in front of this whole like killing you to put my son in power thing I believe and

And I think Joe agrees with this too. It feels this way too, that Alison cares about Rhaenyra, that they still have that warmth and affection for each other. And we're eager to make their way back to each other last episode. That part, I don't have any trouble accepting that Alison would want to stand in the way of a great harm befalling Rhaenyra. I don't think she would be eager. The Alison we have seen in this show would not be eager to have Rhaenyra and her entire family killed. My question is more. So she says to Rhaenys, the Iron Throne was yours by blood and by temperament.

Viserys would have lived his days as a country lord content to hunt and study his histories. But here we are. We do not rule, but we may guide the men that do gently away from violence and sure destruction and instead toward peace. To stand there and say to Rhaenys the Iron Throne was yours by blood and by temperament, but then execute a plot, whether she was in on the Green Council plot or not, is irrelevant. To execute a plot inside of this episode to crown Aegon as king, which she does not believe.

That by blood or by temperament, it is his. The propulsive force for her is Viserys' final words. So there's this dissonance and this tension. Her belief that her son is a piece of shit. The you are no son of mine line was an episode ago. Her belief that Rhaenyra would make a fine queen, which was also something we heard an episode ago. And then previously, if we go years and years back, her saying to Otto that she didn't want to raise her son to steal his sister's birthright.

is in conflict with the lifelong indoctrination of Otto's words that the other side, the you are the challenge idea that she says to Aegon a few episodes ago, that the other side will come and try to kill her family. And like, yeah, what's Otto's very first move, right? Is like, we got to go kill Rhaenyra and Daemon, right? Right. So she's seeing that reinforced just from the other side. And

And also, the fact that Otto spends the first several, like, the first episode is all about Otto saying, we cannot have Damon as heir. Let's put Rhaenyra in this place because we cannot have a madman and an asshole as our king. And then puts his rapist-

kid fight club grandson on the throne. This is such a huge Otto episode. It's why in the time jump, and Mal and I have talked about this before, but like in the various time jumps, the scene that I really miss having, honestly, is Viserys making the decision to bring Otto back into the fold. Because Otto, like...

If you read this section of Fire and Blood, Kristen Cole gets a lot of credit for what happens here, and they really downplay Kristen Cole's role in all of this. He's called the Kingmaker after this because of his role in getting Aegon on the throne. They are softening Alicent and making her concern a lot about Rhaenyra and stuff like that.

And so in the absence of those people, this is Otto driving this engine forward in the most meaningful way. And so letting that back into the castle is one of the most consequential things that happens in this entire show. And we didn't, it happened between episodes, right? Yeah. Remember when Otto, as he's, as after his ouster for the first time and he's leaving and he says, either you prepare Egon to rule or you cleave to Rhaenyra and pray for her mercy. So,

Alison, the truth of these words, it's in front of her, the violence that is unfolding. And it is so fascinating that the path that she sees to trying to prevent that violence is shifting so that she's the one in the position to offer that mercy to somebody else. But from the Renice eruption that we already discussed to all of these other factors, auto, iron rod, et cetera, Kristen. Yeah.

It's apparent to all, including Allison, that peace is not a possibility. And to indulge in that fantasy, I think it makes that Rainice line about the window in the prison all the more powerful and...

Really, I think it's a deep critique. You toil in service to men, your father, your husband, your son. You desire not to be freed, but to make a window in the wall of your prison. She's saying to her, you're not actually trying to change the circumstances of the realm or your own life at all. And you're content, which we know that that's not true. We see on Allison's face the horror of what is unfolding. She's not content at all. There's no good options for her.

But there's a cap. There's a cap on what the path that she is on can actually lead to. Putting Aegon, putting a crown on Aegon's head is not leading to peace or change. And I think that, like...

you know, again, I really think that window in your prison line is like the line of the episode for me. And so to watch Rainey's like fly out of the dragon pit, fly out of the window that's in the dragon pit that all the commoners are trying to get out of because they don't want to die. Like an auto being like open the door, but nobody's listening because he does not have control of the realm at all. And Rainey's is like, here's my dragon and I'm going. And you're stuck here still with these horrible men.

and your nice daughter. You brought up that line about the window in the prison. It actually is a pretty effective way, the way Claire Kilner shot this episode is that

It kind of feels like several of the characters, but especially Allison, is imprisoned. She's always running from one dark room to another dark room to convince somebody of her case. She can't really do anything on her own. She can't go get Aegon. She has to send these guys out. She has to basically work her chessboard, but it doesn't seem like she's doing it from a position of power. It seems like she's doing it from... She's locked up in a tower somewhere.

If only she had put on one of the many cloaks that people wear in this episode, including Rainey's or an auto. She doesn't really have any shoes to match, you know? Wow. Wow, wow, wow. What am I missing? Anything we guys wanted to talk about before we go? Can we talk about Amand for a minute or two? Yes. Yeah. I have found that for the most part, my favorite...

characters on the show, or at least the characters that I'm most drawn to consistently, weirdly, are the ones that have been played by the same performer the entire time. So I quite like Kristen Cole as a character, just because not in any way is supportive of his actions, but there is a consistency or a coherence to the character because Fabian Frankel's played him the entire time. Otto, to me, makes sense because...

have played him the entire time. Lyman Beesbury. Beesbury. And you know what? I don't think we're talking enough about what the Beesbury family reaction is going to be. Your dad slipped in the small council and caved his head in. I need to say this in case any of our listeners have not listened to the book spoiler section of House of R where we look ahead and predict what might come. Joe called. No, I don't...

I mean, the exact specific way that Beesbury would die. Joanna Robinson called in, I believe, episode one. Wow. That he would be murdered via small ball by Kristen Cole during the Korean council. Round of applause. Thank you.

In the book, they're like, did Lyman Beesbury get pushed out a window by Chris and Cole? Did he get his throat slit by Chris and Cole? Or did he get thrown into the black cells? It's one of those, like, what are the three ways Lyman Beesbury could have gotten murdered? But we were just so confused about those dumb balls in the small council chamber. We're like, why are we seeing them? Why is the camera constantly lingering on them? What is the point? And then I was like, what if Bees gets got by a small ball? Like, that's really funny. What are we getting for small ball? The Guardians, you know? The Guardians and House of the Dragons.

To properly memorialize Lyman Beesbury, I just want to read this one line from Fire and Blood where it says, all three chronicles agree on one particular. The first bloodshed in the Dance of the Dragons belonged to Lord Lyman Beesbury, Master of Coin and Lord Treasurer of the Seven Kingdoms. So RIP. Gods be good. You were great. That was a great final stand from Bees. It really was.

What a challenge. Yeah, I mean, that was incredible. So, Mal, what did you want to address there? Yeah, about Aemon. So, another riveting Aemon episode. Genuinely. Aemon's saying to Kristen, his secrets are his own, of Aegon. He's welcome to them. And then leaning in to whisper, I am next in line to the throne. Should they come looking for me, I intend to be found.

He is not next in line to the throne, and this is a huge thing that he said this. Huge. First of all, he is a true, true, true believer. Not only in Targaryen might, as we've discussed across many pods, but in his side. Nothing that he says in his many, many slights against his fuck-up of a brother and monster of a brother Aegon indicates anything

any affection for or belief in Rhaenyra's cause. That's not it at all. He just thinks he should be the one for team green instead of Aegon. He's the one who's studying philosophy and history. Exactly. Studying histories and philosophies. It is I who trains with the sword and who rides the largest dragon in the world. All true, by the way. And Kristen probably knows it because Kristen's like, this kid could probably beat me.

They've been training with sword and morning star in the yard for some time, Chris, and have a great understanding of each other's respective abilities. Egon and Helena have kids. Egon has a son, Jaharius. And

For Aemond, in this family in particular, in this slice of the timeline, in this part of Targaryen history in particular, to say a thing like this, it's impossible not to think of Maegor the Cruel. Impossible. Because Maegor was the younger brother of our guy, our fave over here on Talk the Thrones, on the ringerverse, Aenys. King Aenys. King Aenys. Who had children.

And his son, Aegon, known now to history as another Aegon, Chris. I hate to tell you that there's another Aegon at play here. Aegon the Uncrowned, because Maegor, who was the younger brother, usurped the throne from Aegon the Uncrowned. So for Aemon to say a thing like this, I think it's a really illuminating insight into not only, of course, what he thinks about Aegon, which is very apparent across these recent episodes,

what he thinks about himself and his own abilities, but to how little he gives a shit about anything resembling propriety, tradition, or the rule of law. And, you know, they've already set him up as this sort of Damon, mini-me, you know? Damon, of course, another character many other characters have compared to Maegor. Right. The second son thread pops up again, right? All this other stuff. But a key distinction is

is that Damon doesn't think his brother's a great king, but Damon would never have tried to take, and not that Eamon is doing that. He is reluctantly grabbing his brother, but Damon wasn't walking around saying, I should be king. That wasn't his vibe at all. Every single time he's had that chance, he has backed away from it.

When Rhaenyra goes up to him on the bridge and is just like, you want what you want? You have to kill me. Do it right now. Yeah, take it. And he's like, eh. Yeah, so Aemond, it's a key difference between Daemon and Aemond. Absolutely. I love Aemond as a character. But what are my options? You know what I mean? Are there super good people on this show? I just lean it into the spin, you know? So did the brothel keep, Chris. Was hyped to see Aemond again. My house is on how much you've grown. That's right.

One of our colleagues messaged me and he was like, how's your Laris fandom doing this week, Jermaine? I was like, tough week for me. Gotta say. Tough week.

Tough week. I mean, there's not like a purely like, oh, I feel great about putting all my chips on this person. So you got to, because sometimes you just got to go with the foot fetish guy or the incel. Right now, sweet, sweet Jace. Sweet Prince Jace seems to be like, you know, our nicest guy. I want to say that on the layers front, I do want to point out, I think it's very notable that like in this like,

Very tiny fracture between Otto and Alicent in terms of their agendas. Laris is making himself available to both sides. Right. Yeah. Within the episode. Let's wrap it up here because we got one more episode to go. You can hear Mallory and Joanna on House of R on Tuesday for their deep dive about this episode. You're free of Lord of the Rings, Rings of Power.

I wouldn't say we're free of it. I just mean you can use so much more of your... Empty and hollowed out inside a hollow that can only be filled by a Harfoot, Chris. You wouldn't understand. You can just take your brains and go to the Aldani folk festivals now and really get Andor pilled with me. Yeah. We're hyped to talk about Andor. Mal and Gerald. We're all in on Andor. Tuesday, deep dive. This episode of House of the Dragon. Then, Sunday night...

The words Mallory loves more than anything else. Fuck it, we'll do this live. Fuck it, we're doing it live! My heartburn is setting in already. We'll go on. I don't know how we're going to deliver it to folks, but we're basically going to go record as soon as we can after the episode on Sunday. Yes. No finale screeners. I swear to God, if the Phillies are playing on Sunday night and I have to be like, is Laris a good guy or not? I'm going to be really mad.

That's my energy going into it. What do you think of that? Mal, if the Orioles were playing on the night of a House of Dragon finale, what do you think you would do?

I should be so lucky to feel that conflict in the human heart, Chris, of watching my beloved baseball team at the playoffs or House of the Dragon. Dare to dream. Podcasting with you two is worth the World Series. That's what I think. Wow. Wow. Thank you to Carlos for producing us this week. We'll be back on Sunday evening. I hope everybody has a great week. And, you know, just maybe just wear shoes.

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