'House of the Dragon' Episode 8 Reactions | Talk the Thrones
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Hello and welcome to Talk the Thrones. My name is Chris Ryan and I am an editor at TheRinger.com. Joining me as always is Ringer Senior Staff Writer Joanna Robinson along with the only person who takes longer to walk across a room than Viserys Targaryen. It's Mal-ri-ru-fin-er.

How's it going? Oh, boy. Guys, let's drain our cups to three strong hosts. Woo! What a great episode of House of the Dragon we just got. A lot of stuff happened. We're going to break down all of it. Joanna, what was the most important thing that we saw in this eighth episode of season one? I feel like I know what...

Other people's answer is going to be. So I'm going to zag and I'm going to say it's how chaos broke out as soon as Viserys left dinner. Like how that's the only thing holding all of this together. Clearly. What do you think, Mel? That's my pick too, actually, because I think all of the other picks are pretty deeply connected to that moment and what we saw. You know, if our guy,

Viserys I Targaryen has in fact taken his final breath. And if everything goes to shit the second he leaves the room, what happens when he leaves this mortal coil? That feels relevant. Also, the last thing that he did before tapping out is confuse his wife for his daughter and talk about the prince that was promised. Not ideal. A classic Malyrubin smuggle. That's the pick I thought you were going to do. Well, they're all

You were like, I'm not going to pick the one that everybody's going to say, but I will say the one everybody's going to say. So just so everybody knows, we record these a little bit before the actual episode airs. So we have not seen scenes from next week. If it turns out that episode nine is Viserys's funeral, which we all expect it to be, because what else could he contribute to this wonderful world we live in? Our guy is arced out. You know, obviously, I think we all think that that was Viserys's death breath, but...

When the screen cuts to black, Chris, and you reach out and you call out to your long lost love. It's the pawing of the empty air for me. It's usually the end. That feels like a final moment. But Chris, you're ready for a fake out? You still believe in Viserys? Viserys is like on FanDuel doing same game parlays.

For a tournament, I just fool me once. That's all I'm saying. I think it was for episode three. I was like, so Viserys is dying. We should take that into account. I want to get into everything here. We can do the recap really fast, and then I want to jump into those dying words that Viserys had there. So in this episode, the sea snake has gotten himself an infection and is in failing health.

the royalty of Westeros engage in the time-honored tradition of power-grabbing in the face of tragedy. Luke, the son of Harwin and Rhaenyra, but publicly the son of Laenor and Rhaenyra, is next in line for the Driftmark throne, but Corlys' brother Vaemon has something to say about that. The matter must go before the crown, which is actually Queen Alyson at this point, since Viserys is basically just a satchel of dust.

Rhaenyra and Daemon, who BT dubs recently unearthed some more dragon eggs, visit KL to solidify Luke's claim to the Driftmark throne, and they find the old bag of bones Viserys barely able to get out of bed. The most important thing about these scenes, about this show, and this entire universe that George R.R. Martin has created is that you never count out the triarchy. They have a habit of resurging...

At the worst possible moment, we have never ever seen. I don't know what their political ideology is. I don't know what their goals are. The Triarchy have made more appearances on this show than dragons in some ways. Is Ceres managing to say when he can barely get a single intelligible sentence, wait, we won that war years ago, is one of the funniest things that's ever happened on television. Four years ago, they started popping up again.

This is, I think, the funniest episode of House of the Dragons so far. Yeah. Like, big time. So what happens next is a massive game of musical driftmark chairs with Rhaenyra swearing to her niece that she didn't have Laenor killed, technically true, and offering her sons to Daemon's and Laena's daughters as a blockbuster trade for the ages.

The Hightowers prefer to have Corlys' brother take over rather than Luke. There is a hearing of various petitioners where we find Otto sitting in the Iron Throne in the King's absence until Viserys comes out of the locker room like Willis Reed and slowly

makes his way to his rightful piece of furniture, the one that nicked him in the first place, giving him this lifelong debilitating leprosy infection. He says that the matter has already been settled. Vaiman loudly disagrees and calls Rhaenyra's sons bastards and Rhaenyra a whore.

Much to the delight of Damon, my favorite moment in this show so far is Damon being like, say it. And so Damon chops his head off, continuing the trend of unprosecuted knife crime in King's Landing. Things settle down after the beheading in the throne room. Everyone gathers for dinner. Viserys makes what is basically a dying wish that the entire family start getting along. And Alicent and Rhaenyra kind of go along with it. Alicent and Rhaenyra finally hug it out and it's really going well until...

Until one-eyed Aemon Targaryen stands up and makes a few double entendre-laden toasts, and it all goes off. That night, Viserys, thinking he's talking to his daughter, tells his wife about the Song of Ice and Fire, convincing her that her Aegon, a true piece of shit, is the person to unite the realm against the evil in the North.

This will, I'm sure, cause no confusion going forward. Aegon takes a couple of last breaths as Alyson, doting wife that she has been

just beats it away from him. And we assume Aegon is dead. That's my assumption. So, Jo. Oh, Viserys. Viserys. Yeah. Yeah, sorry. Aegon, unfortunately, still going short. Aegon, unfortunately, still visiting chambermaids everywhere. Yeah. Two Aegons now. Double the Aegon. That's right. Because Daemon and Rhaenyra have an Aegon as well. So, Jo.

I want to talk about the entirety of the next however many decades of conflict being kicked off by an extremely high dying man confusing his wife for his daughter. Is this in the books? And because my big question was like, you know, in the beginning of this series, you guys were like, this is new to have Viserys telling Rhaenyra about the Song of Ice and Fire. So now multiple people know about this. What's going on here?

Yeah, this is obviously not in the book because the prophecy is not in the book as far as we know, like not overtly anyway. And I think we talked a lot last week about maybe the show putting a thumb on the scale for sympathy for the Blacks.

And this feels like an evening of that scale because whatever Alyson does next, she's doing presumably under the misinterpretation that Viserys has asked her to put their shitty son on the throne. Right. So she's honoring the dying wishes, we assume dying wishes, of Viserys.

you know, the king. Can I just read to you, because I know you love it when we read passages from the book. I actually do. I find them quite illuminating. I just think it's really beautiful the way it's put in the book, right? Afterward, the king sent them away, pleading weariness and a tightness in his chest.

Wait, what? And how does

Not 152, but 52 years old and had reigned over most of Westeros for 26 years. Then the storm broke and the dragons danced. One of the best lines in the whole book. 52? Yeah. Bill's 52. That is wild stuff. Thank you, Joe. That is beautiful.

So, yeah, I guess my... I mean, like, I'm very... I'm not confused. I think this is really interesting. Well, yeah, it's... Well, it's a deeply added complication to the whole... Again, like, the show has been enjoying adding these deeper complications to our understanding of, you know, who's in the right here. And I think what the show really wants us to...

be caught up in is that everyone is right from a certain point of view and everyone is wrong from a certain point of view. And I do have questions about whether or not, like both of you per our texts seem to interpret this as Alicent now understands the prophecy. I'm not sure. I don't think so. Okay. I'm not sure it's quite that, but I think Alicent believes that Viserys' dying wish is that her son Aegon sit the throne. Yeah. I think that's right. I think there's like,

a 4% chance, maybe let's say 3% chance that Alison actually leaves that conversation understanding the prophecy. I would say it's not impossible just given that Viserys has drunkenly revealed to Alison in a prior episode of this television show that he is a dreamer and talked about the roles of dreaming in House Targaryen. It's possible that she left that conversation thinking about that, holding on to that, and is making a connection here like, oh, maybe he's

actually talking about a prophetic dream here. We also know that, I think this is a key distinction when we talk about this as a show invention or a show ad, a new reveal. That is specifically about Aegon the Conqueror having this dream and this dream and this prophecy fueling his conquest of Westeros. The prince that was promised was

predates Aegon and his existing lore in the universe. So Viserys utters those words. He says the prince that was promised. And so I would just say it's not impossible that Alicent, who we know is like a diligent student and studying texts and stuff like that, that that would ping something and that she could piece this together. I would say that it is infinitely more likely, though, that, and I think this is what we all believe, that she comes out of that

on the heels of a little bit of a return to the state of peace, stating that she had felt uneasy about the subterfuge that was playing out, legitimately appalled by Aegon, to the point where she says to him, you are no son of mine. And then toasts Rhaenyra and says, you will make a fine queen. And we could talk later about how much of the toasts that they share are sincere and how much are about this play acting to make peace, and maybe it's a combination. But

But that Alicent leaves that hearing that Viserys is saying in his final moments, you're the one who has to ensure that the realm stays together by Aegon. If everybody didn't have the same fucking name, folks, this wouldn't be an issue. But they do. That Aegon, our kid, has to be the one on the throne. And the other thing that I think really reinforces that interpretation is in the Vaemon succession petition sequence,

When Viserys comes in, he says that the only person equipped to clarify Corlys' wishes is his wife, Rhaenys. And so this puts Alicent in a position now to say, from the king's own mouth, he has said that the only person who would be able to clarify a succession plan and desire is his wife. I'm telling you the last thing he said to me. I think...

I think at the very least, Alison's going to come out of this conflicted because I do believe in the sincerity of her, like wanting to make peace with Rhaenyra at that dinner. Like Alison and Rhaenyra seemed the most sincere. I also believe in her sincerity of being like, my son is no son of mine. Yeah. Are we sure we want this guy to be king? Yeah. Yeah. So now we have basically two different factions of this family who are in different ways aware of this prophecy and

And it doesn't even matter how aware they are because now they're also using... I think we can still say... Let's just say that Alicent is not aware of the prophecy. I think that is the safer, clearer way to go. That she just thinks that Viserys wants Aegon to be heir and has said, make this happen. And that her sense of duty and like...

adhering to a vow that guides her throughout everything we've seen so far would kick in again there and complicate that rekindled warmth with Rhaenyra, right? I think it's like accurate to say both sides feel convinced that they have from the word of Viserys that their claim, Aegon or Rhaenyra, is the only incorrect claim. And crucially, I would imagine since Rhaenyra was like, I have to take my kids home. I'll come back on Dragonback in a bit.

Viserys dies, there is this vacuum. There is a lack of physical presence from Rhaenyra in King's Landing at a moment when they can install Aegon if that so comes to pass. What I was curious about, Mal, is Viserys took great pains to explain the importance of what he was sharing with Rhaenyra. And if I remember correctly, showed her the inscription on that dagger, right? There is a degree of...

could you say receipts that Rhaenyra has like proof of purchase on this throne that she's like look this goes beyond just like chess you know chess moves of which family is in control like I'm supposed to stand up against this yet to be determined evil coming out of the north which is also like really tough for anybody in the north being like I'm not the bad guy here I'm like I guess that's that's a stark problem though yeah why don't you reach out let's talk

about this. They're like further north, higher. Exactly. We're lower north. If Rhaenyra's looking for receipts, all she needs to say is my father, the king publicly declared me heir. You all bent the knee. He never changed his mind. And mere moments ago in the throne room was advocating for my line and my children. How's that for receipts?

Still, it's a good question. And I think it's the other reason that Joe and I feel pretty confident that Alicent leaves that room saying, I understand the wish of the king, not I understand Aegon the Conqueror, Aegon the Dragon's secret prophecy, is because, you know, we've talked about this a lot, like the unreliable narrator nature of Fire and Blood, not everything that we get in that text is the actual thing that happened. That's fine and good. I do think it's safe to say, though, that

that if widely and far across the land in court, in King's Landing and beyond,

Rhaenyra and Alicent were shouting out loud, there is a prophecy about saving the world from the apocalyptic winter, and I or my child is the one who has to fend it off, that would have made it into the history books. So I just don't think that Rhaenyra is going to actually ever say this out loud. And I think if Alicent knows, she would have no choice. And so, like, I think this will remain something that Rhaenyra guards pretty closely. I think we're probably going to see her tell Daemon. That feels like we need to get more people in her confidence. Right.

But I don't think that Rhaenyra to the receipts question could say, like, let me put this blade in the fire and show all of you what burden I'm inheriting. Because like, actually, how does that help her? If she does that, then it's just, then it just allows Alicent to say, well,

Yeah, and that's about my kid. And also, let me tell you about this other dream my husband told me about where he said he saw the Conqueror's crown on his son. I don't know that it helps her if she does that. Yeah, I think it's also important to, like, where is the dagger right now? It's with, like, Team Allison. It's in the Sarah's chambers. Right, yeah. Because the camera pans down to it. Yeah, Allison has the dagger, first of all. And secondly...

I would love a scene where Rhaenyra shoves it in the fire and Alyson's like, who's to say you didn't just do that yesterday? Like, how do you prove that this is an ancient inscription? So that leads me to my next question of what I thought was secretly the most fascinating part of this episode was a brief moment in the beginning when Daemon and Rhaenyra are arriving and most of the Targaryen iconography has been stripped from King's Landing and replaced with that of the Faith of the Seven.

And to me, that would also suggest Allison's skepticism, I guess, about dreamers and prophecies and knives with inscriptions on them and all sorts of things that Rhaenyra might try to use for her claim because she's obviously trying to move things away from the traditional old Valyria way of seeing things. Am I right? I mean, it would seem like her interior decoration would definitely...

seem that way. Yeah. I did note that the Targaryen fuck murals are still going strong in Viserys's room. Well, I mean, she's an art lover. Yeah, yeah. But elsewhere, they're gone. So I feel like the last, like, orgy murals are in Viserys's room and then once he's dead, all bets are off. But I

absolutely, Alicent is cloaking herself of the seven-point star that she's wearing ostentatiously. Like, all of that's there, but that feeds back into what Rhaenyra said last week about sort of, like, the veil of her righteousness, that piety that she dresses herself in because, as Mallory has pointed out many times, like,

When we theorize about this, like ever since we saw a promo photo of Olivia Cooke with that giant seven-pointed star on her, we're like, okay, is this going to be a religious war? Which isn't necessarily in the book, but is that what they're building up for for Alicent? And then Mallory is pointing out, she's like, it's hard to be on your high horse of piety, Alicent, if you married your son to your daughter, which she did. Like Aegon and Helena are married and have kids, as we find out in this episode. And so it's like...

What it means is that Alicent is pious maybe when it serves her. Politically pious, yeah. This is a great Alicent episode, I will say, for my like empathy for Alicent. I felt for her a lot in this episode. So I'm not trying to like paint her as an out and out villain at all. But I do think that piety is sometimes convenient for her when it's convenient, you know? Yeah. I also think it...

that makes, not that she was in any way not a very clear threat before, but it like crystallizes the second they walk in how the nature of that threat has evolved and what I think crucially what the threat could look like moving forward. Because there are a couple things, right? There's, you see the seven pointed star everywhere. Damon has that great line about, Alicent, I have no doubt it was an act of

the purest mercy. But tell me, for the king's suffering, did the maesters also order the removal of dark Arian heraldry? Like, it's just incredible. And Rhaenyra says that she says it would be nice to be home, but she barely recognizes it. I love that Daemon's sitting in that scene. It's like, dude, she's the queen and the other one is pregnant. Like, you should just get up and let her sit. Our guy is always either in a chair or leaning against a wall and

I'm here for it and it's amazing. But like think back to season two of Game of Thrones and Joffrey's interior redesign of the throne room. When somebody is changing the seat of power, the red keep, to match their personal preference, like it is a sign that something fundamental has shifted about who is in power, who is in control. And I think like when we process how that would make Rhaenyra and Daemon feel walking in or how it could potentially play out

when they assess the threat that House Hightower poses in the future, it's a couple things. Like, I think that everything Joe said about that cloak of piousness is essential. House Hightower, though, has like a longstanding history with the Faith of the Seven, both seated in Old Town. The faith is still centered in Old Town right now at this point in the timeline. So you walk in, you see the seven-pointed star in Allison's body, you see it all around you. It's like,

The Faith could be a powerful ally for Alicent at any point, and that's a huge, huge, huge, huge risk for Rhaenyra,

My Westerosi religious studies degree has expired. So I was wondering if there was a... I thought those were for life. No, you know, it was kind of, it was a University of Phoenix thing. So I don't think that the degree really stuck. But the Faith of the Seven, is there like an analog, would you say, for, I mean, our own human history that like they're trying to sort of say, like, was it like the...

the Protestant Reformation? Like, what is... I would say Catholicism. Catholicism. And then, like, Targaryen's beliefs are more, what, like, old world Bacchanalian kind of, like, we're superheroes and we can do what we want? It's tough because, like, so there are the old gods within Westeros, but the Targaryens basically believe themselves to be the gods is sort of my, you know, and it's been a constant...

shaky detente between the church and the Targaryens where the Targaryens have tried to say like, okay, we're conquering Westeros. This is the established church. Let's find a way to sort of get along and pretend. This is why that scene with like young Rhaenyra, young Alicent in the Sept was so important at the beginning of the season, right? Because Alicent is- Oh, she's like, pray with me, right? Yeah, and Rhaenyra's like, how does one pray again?

because it's Targaryen. Like, I might be fluent in High Valyrian, but I know nothing about the church at all because this isn't what we believe in or what we do. We'll acknowledge the power of the church. And then in some instances in Targaryen,

royal history, there's an open war with the church. And so it's a really complicated relationship. Yeah. And like you have Alicent invoking the father and saying a prayer at dinner in addition to all of the iconography populating the Red Keep. And you have Rhaenyra and Daemon six years prior getting married in Valyrian blood and binding ways.

ritual, not even in the light of the seven. So like, I think the point about Aegon and Helena being a brother, sister, sibling, incestuous marriage and the hypocrisy of that, given Alison's personal feelings on those, quote, queer customs of the Targaryens is germane, but also she's in a position to basically do what Jaehaerys did when he agreed to the doctrine of exceptionalism with

the faith and say, okay, we're abiding by the agreement that House Targaryen reached with the faith of the seven. So this one thing is all inside of a desire to adhere to the faith and inside of a desire to be aligned with the faith. Rhaenyra is not interested in that. And so if you were going to choose a side, you, the faith, choose us. And I think it's clear that Alicent is trying to like, that that would be projected if you are walking in and seeing that.

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So, Joe, you brought up a really good point where Alicent has made a lot of compromises in the intervening years since she first fell out with Rhaenyra when they were essentially kids. And one of them is marrying her son and her daughter together. And another is giving the chambermaid the same tea that the maester gave Rhaenyra after her night allegedly with...

but in reality with Kristen, is this supposed to be suggestion that she's just a great political operator or is it that she is like slowly starting to lose her like moral center as she gets older? I like it's, it was really fascinating scene, right? Because like,

And not too subtly, like obviously echoing like the language of Me Too about like, she's like, I believe you, but you know, like there was, it was obviously like trying to kind of push some buttons there. It gave me strong Siobhan Roy at the end of season two of Succession, you know, that harrowing conversation. It's also in its language meant to reflect a lot of the conversations we saw between Cersei and Sansa in early Game of Thrones. Like that is definitely there, her calling her sweetling and all this stuff like that.

you

But unlike Cersei, I genuinely believe Alyssa does feel for this young girl. And we see it in her. She's holding Aegon more accountable, I think, than Cersei ever held Joffrey in the next scene. Not the greatest parenting move to scream at your misbehaving child and saying you are no son of mine. But I don't know that I read it as entirely hypocrisy. But I think it is...

really important to note the difference between her kids and Rhaenyra's kids. I noted that, yeah. Yeah, just a few slight differences, right? And like, however much empathy we have for Alicent, and I have plenty in this episode, I still also have to judge her if she's got a kid like Aegon, like, you know, and Aemond, like, you know, and whether that's just like,

It was tough for her to parent children that were born out of a marriage that was forced upon her with an old, like, decaying man. Like, then I can find empathy for her there. But at the end of the day, like, Aegon is a monstrous kid, and that is reflective of her and her parenting choices. And so I don't know that I felt that that was...

I was glad to see from Allison some genuine empathy for this young girl, even as she's doing her duty, I suppose, which is covering up her son's absolute bullshit. What do you think, Mal? Well, I agree. I mean, I think that she seems to feel for Diana. Yeah.

even as she is then also intimidating her. I know you won't. Here's a bag of money. Here's this tea. Drink it. You must do what I say, which is horrifying. And then what does Allison actually say to Aegon as she is screaming at him? She says, think of the shame on your wife already.

on me? How can you keep carrying on like this, especially on a day like today? So that doesn't mean she doesn't feel anything genuinely inside of her for Diana and feel horribly more broadly for what women are subjected to in the realm. I think that's very present here. But

And I think when she's thinking about her daughter, about Helena, she's also thinking about it in those terms, like a woman who needs to be in a certain marriage because of what it means politically and for the path to power and how horrible that is now for the rest of that life. Right. But also thinking about what Egon has just done.

Through the lens of the shame it would bring on the family and the way that it would complicate their ambition, that's awful. That's horrific. Well, no real person involved, right? Again, to cite Succession, right? This is not my belief, obviously, but this is going to be the ongoing belief of...

And then, you know, this is in Fire and Blood, this idea that Aegon was just, you know, assaulting the maidservants around the castle. Because he is, I don't know if you picked up, not a good dude. Not great, Aegon. So I wanted to ask about these kids because, and I'm sure that Ryan Connell and the creators and the writers are doing this on purpose where Rhaenyra's children are ostracized because of being supposedly bastards with a capital B.

And Allison's kids are just bastards. Like, they're just like these, like, especially the sons and, and Amon. Yeah. Not, not Helena. Helena's fine. Yeah. She's cool. Um, she just wants to play with spiders. Great dinner toast from Helena. Yeah. Honestly. But,

Aemon essentially restarts the civil war between these two families. You know what I mean? Like he gets up there and he has had a like miraculous growth spurt. First of all, just completely passing Aegon on the left in the hype division. Definitely inherited Viserys's genes of aging 30 years for every three that passed. I think notably is essentially Kristen Cole's equal in the training, right? Uh,

And as I puts the blade to his throat and is like, I got you on this one. So physically, obviously very able and clearly doesn't care about making a first of all, it certainly doesn't care about honoring his father's wishes about there being peace and is got something driving him. That's pretty dark and pretty disturbing. Can you, Mal, is there anything I need to know about the six years since we last saw Amon say,

I got a dragon. It was a fair trade. And now when he is apparently grown into the ideal stretch for 6'10", stretching the court, you know, like able to crash the boards, able to handle and make plays. Yeah. He's got it all. Couple things. One, my note for everyone involved at the dinner, maybe don't serve pig given the pink dread and the...

childhood incident because as soon as the pig comes out and that was amazing scene choreography Viserys being carried out as the pig is being carried in and the way that Luke looks over the pig and smirks and laughs and just incites that rage in Aegon and of course Jace calling back to their shared youth and

everybody is just looking for one excuse to act. And they don't even really need a real excuse, right? Amen. So here's one line from Fire and Blood that I think

pretty well sums up the growth spurt in the evolution here. Quote, Prince Amon, despite the loss of his eye, had become a proficient and dangerous swordsman under the tutelage of Sir Kristen Cole, but remained a wild and willful child, hot-tempered and unforgiving. That's kind of the essence of it, and that comes across here. And I think my, one of my favorite moments in the episode that was like in the quieter, quicker bucket, not the huge set pieces, which were incredible, was

When Veeman's with the house high tower guards comes in and the doors open in the yard,

And everybody turns to look. This is after Amon very creepily calls out to his nephews and asks if they want to train. We get an overhead shot of the yard. Everybody is turning toward the door to look at what's coming. What's Amon doing? He's going to get another shield. Like this guy's always readying for the fight. Always. The moment, it was almost super, it was spooky. So like, you know, little Jason Luke or taller Jason Luke, by the way,

Harry Collette's the actor who's playing 16-year-old Jace.

And I looked at that kid. I was like, I bet that kid was a Billy Elliot. And he was. Was he? Yeah. I was like, I feel like I can smell the Billy Elliot's now as they populate Hollywood. Who plays Eamon? Because I don't think that kid was a Billy Elliot. That kid was never a Billy Elliot. Yeah. That kid, that's you and Mitchell. It's funny because I really feel like- He seems like he was in Gangs of London or something. Like it was not Billy Elliot. He and the actress who played Helena were both in The Last Kingdom, the Netflix show. But-

It's interesting because Tom Glen Carney, who plays Aegon, and I think it's Fia Saban who plays Helena, I think they both look a lot like Olivia Colman in the face. A lot. And then Ewan Mitchell, who plays Aemon Targaryen, I think they cast him to look like Matt Smith. Because as you might have seen as they sort of like... You see...

It's meant to be that the team greens has their own Damon now and it's a mentor Gary. And right. And like the moment when they're staring each other, they're squaring off at the end of the dinner or whatever. And I, you know, the rule of like king of the court, I, in a basketball term, not in a Royal family term, I did take note.

that Eamon is now on the same level as Kristen who kicked Eamon's ass 10 years ago or 16 years ago or whenever it was. And I love that sequence because like he's training with Kristen. Luke and Jace are sort of like, what's all this then? Walk up and then they, and Eamon turns, they see the eye of passion like, oh shit, that's Eamon. Oh fuck. Right. And they have this like, they have this awful moment. And then Eamon never looks at them, is like fighting Kristen the whole time, wins the thing. And then Eamon,

like shoots his one eye over at them, like says cousins. And like, he knows that they're there and like has clocked them despite never like pausing to look at them. It is terrifying. Like this, this guy is always scanning the floor, the floor, like great court vision, incredible stuff. And I think, I think what's important about, I mean, Eamon, we all agree looks way older than the other kids, but I think it's important. This is another six year time jump. We get all new actors for the kids and,

We don't know, Mallory and I, for certain, but I think doing math on what's... I don't think we're going to do another major time jump. I think this is it. So these, like, all these actors gathered at dinner here, these are our actors going forward, right? And what I love about, like, I think Jace especially, our Billy Elliot kid, is, like, that actor is, like, 18, 19. He...

And he's supposed to be 16. He looks like a 16-year-old to me. So he looks like the kind of boy soldier that Jon Snow and Robb Stark were supposed to be. Kit Harington and Richard Madden were like in their mid-20s when they were cast. And they never felt like children to me. But they never really, they kind of massaged that. They were like, these guys could be like warriors, but they're also supposed to be kids. Right, right.

Yeah. And like, so when you, when you, when you, when Robb Stark leads a war at the beginning of Game of Thrones, this is a boy king, like this is the boy king of the North. Right. And, but Jace actually does feel like a boy. And so thinking of what, you know, whatever's to come as, you know, the dragons dance, um,

Like, it's scary to think of these kids involved in all of that. Yeah, he's still, like, genuinely excited to run through the training yard. I was so struck by Luke, who is only supposed to be canonically a year younger than Jace, though seems...

like the guy feels a little bit bigger to me than in the show. Yeah. He's like, it looks so much smaller. And that was such a, like a moment that you can relate to when you're, you're a kid, everything seems huge to you and you go back and you're like, this is just a room. Oh, I'm taller than my locker now. And like, it just does remind you how small they've been for all of this. And like, I don't think I was ever taller than my locker, but that's, that's my cost. Yeah. Jason,

just like trying to get better at his homework, like really frustrated with himself that he can't learn High Valyrian. And like, what is the language that they're translating? What is it about? It's about the conquest. Like it's about this fabled, these fabled figures from House Targaryen's history and a war of might and strength. Like it's, I agree with Joe, like you really felt the youth there in a way that was amazing.

And then it's like shocking when you swing to the other side and you hear when Helena comes in to the Alison Agon scene and Alison is confronting Agon about Diana. Helena comes in and asks where Diana is and says she's supposed to dress the children. Like not only have Helena and Agon gotten married in the intervening time, they have kids now. So like- I was surprised Alison wasn't like, you know, Diana's not around, but you should use Talia. She's right here. Oh,

Oh my God. Always available. Always ready. I'm really glad you said that because that's the other thing. Like Talia is the one who brings the moon tea and then Talia is the one who goes to Masaria at the end. So like, I want, I want, I want to get to Masaria, but I, I, you know, I did, I, we will get some Masaria cause she, I was like, is she just off this show now? Like I wasn't really sure what was going on with that, but she does pop up in this episode.

Here's the thing. I just want to like more of like a broad conversation topic that I thought was kind of cool. One of the issues that I think I've had with the show over the course of the season has been how confined it is to the sort of chambers of power. Like,

Like it hasn't really done a lot with the exception of the naming day feast where we're out in the forest and stuff like that. Yeah. We go to come some different lands. We go to drift mark, we go to Dragonstone, we go to King's landing, but for the most part it's in these very powerful rooms. And I know that game of Thrones did that as well, but it had a lot of like flea bottom and it had a lot of like, here we are with this army in the, in the field. And what I've sort of started to come to appreciate about what house of the dragon is doing in that regard is that it

Is this sly commentary on what an illusion all these people's power is? Like, because you can lose or gain power due to a misunderstanding, due to mishearing something on someone's deathbed, due to the fact that you're just like, you know what? I'm just going to go ahead and say, Corlys didn't really want it this way. Or even if he did, fuck Corlys, he's dead. Right.

which I want to talk about whether or not that was the best way to handle that. So it's been a really interesting thing, Joe, where I think that this show is more leaning into the ideas of how thin the thread is that binds people to power. Yeah. No, and I think that's really true. And I mean, that's one of the... We've talked about the many, many interpretations of everything Helena has ever said. And in last week's episode, one of the... She

She was talking about hands moving wheels and threads, black threads, green threads. And I think one solid interpretation of that is, yeah, how tenuous all of this is on a knife's edge, like how everything could go one way or another. And I think what really underlines that for me in this episode is Rhaenyra...

and Allison in that moment at the end of the dinner when Rhaenyra, when Allison's like, you just got here, stay, we're friends. And Rhaenyra's like, I gotta drop the kids off in the Volkswagen, but I'll be back. You know what I'm just like? But I'll take the sports car back. I was like, stay, you know? It's like, there's constantly these almost moments, especially for these women who we've seen as go from the closest of friends as young girls to where they are now, where there's been so many moments where it's like almost reconciliation. Almost.

Yeah, and even the fact that like, Vaemon is so outright defying Viserys in front of Viserys, in front of Viserys' entire court, and then in turn gets his head chopped off in front of the entire court, and kind of nobody does anything. You know, it's all kind of like, this is just playing out, this is the theater of power that we're kind of involved in, but nobody arrests Daemon for chopping off

Otto makes one very feeble pitch to him. Oh, he's like, unarm, disarm that man. Mostly because he's clearly afraid of Damon. Where else slice next? Yeah. Just really quickly, Chris, I would just advise that next time you do a very public crime, you have a good quip ready because Damon's saying he can keep his tongue. I think it's the best defense he could have. God. Now,

So the episode starts and they're like, guys, the triarchy. And someone got Corliss. He's got blood fever, etc. And they're like, well, he should be here in three days. And Renise is like, cool. I'm going to leave and go to King's Landing. And we're going to have this discussion about whether or not, like, who's going to take over Driftmark, even though there's no death certificate on my husband.

So what's going on here? Like Corlys, are, do you, I mean, is Corlys' fate still up in the air or is this another great misunderstanding that shifts the balance of power? You know, Renise isn't at the dinner.

That's true. On that tight timeline to get home and see what Corliss' fate is. I think this connects actually completely to the last question you just asked, Chris, about the illusion of power and how thin that line is because it's like the famous Varys quote, right? Power resides where men believe it resides. It's a trick, it's a shadow on the wall. So the second anybody has the opportunity to cast another shadow instead, then...

they will. And that I think is like the, the really, especially given the conclusion with Viserys, our guy, I think that is like the key takeaway of this episode. Everything that's happening with Corlys and with House Velaryon, with much love and respect to House Velaryon, is a microcosm for what can then happen. Right. At scale. The coming attractions. Yeah. And like, exactly. And I think that that's why,

The Ceres obviously enters the room in the first place, goes down to the throne room, which like, obviously we must talk about because Rhaenyra comes to him in the dead of night and begs him to stand up for her, to support her claim and her children. And because of this, you have, you have put this burden on me. If you still believe show up and,

But in the face of that challenge, in the face of those petitions, like, what does he say? He says, I must admit my confusion. I do not understand why petitions are being heard over a settled succession. You just then apply that to everything happening with House Targaryen, right? Like, when Vaemond has the gall to say to him, and this, I think, also connects to your Stepstones question, because, like, how was that positioned initially earlier in the season? And more broadly, those conversations about, like,

to respond to a challenge. You can't let anybody think that you're weak for a second. And so the gall of screaming that the king has fucked up his own house but won't do the same to House Velaryon, calling those kids bastards, screaming it when Viserys has sworn that if anybody did that, he would take out their tongues, calling the heir to the Iron Throne,

thrown a whore in the throne room. An open court. Say it. Say it. Go for it. Do it. On the one hand, I was impressed that Viserys found the strength to stand and pull his dagger, but anything short of what Daemon did would have been almost unfathomable in the face of that because it's just such an affront. And Rhaenys, you know, wasn't like, oh gosh, my brother-in-law. She was just like, poof, good. That guy's gone. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. It feels like no love lost there, honestly. Okay, can we talk about the long walk, by the way? So that was probably, in some ways, the set piece of the episode. And in some ways, the set piece of the season so far, dragons accepted, was this moment where Viserys enters the throne room. Otto is feeling his oats sitting on the Iron Throne. And the show... The way he leans forward. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think it goes from something kind of unintentionally funny to something quite, quite beautiful and touching. So, Jo, what were your thoughts on that moment? I was like hooting with laughter and then I was openly sobbing, genuinely. When he drops the crown.

In this, like, beautiful parallel of, you know, Damon and the Driftwood crown and all sorts of, like, he drops the crown and Damon picks it up. He looks up and it's Damon. Like, you know, and then I thought Patty Constantine was extraordinary and the VFX team extraordinary in this episode. I also thought Matt Smith was incredible in this episode. And so for the moment when he says...

Come on. That's the height of this whole season for me. This complicated, constant complicated relationship between these two brothers. But how Damon has always been like, you can talk shit about my brother. I can talk shit about my brother, but you can't. I just wanted to be by his side helping him. All he ever wanted was for Saris to say, come and be by my side and help me. And the fact that Rhaenyra said it to him last week

this like big moment where he's like, yeah, I just wanted to be like,

you're second. And like when Viserys says in the first episode, I don't think Daemon even really wants the throne. He doesn't want to do that. Like the actors have backed that up in every interview. They're like, yeah, Daemon doesn't want the throne. Yeah. Like that's not what he wants. Like he wants maybe proximity to power, but he doesn't, like he's not, you know, power hungry for the throne. And he genuinely loves his brother. And they've had conflict after conflict in that very room. You know,

you know? And so to have him show up at that moment, absolutely gutted me. And he had seemed sort of appalled by, by Viserys in this episode up until this point, like when Vernira is like lovingly kind of doting on him and,

when they first go into his sick room, like I felt like Damon was a little bit more like, let's get what we need out of this politically. Like let's, let's inform him about certain things. I didn't think so. That wasn't my take. Like for me, it was almost like hard for him to look at Viserys. Anytime he looked at him, it was difficult. He says brother when he first sees him. Right. When, uh,

brings up your favorite topic, the triarchy. And he's like, I thought we won that war. Yeah. Damon looks so embarrassed. He's just sort of like, you just obviously have been like on milk of the poppy for five years. Right. But he's also just like, I fucked that up. Yeah. I did that. I got us into that. And then I want to hear everything that Malice say about this. But I think the last thing I want to say about the long walk as like funny and then poignant as it was as great as Patty

Patty Constantine's bodywork was and all of that. We've talked a couple times about the various important long walks that these characters have taken in this season. Rhaenyra covered in boar blood, Alicent in her green dress, Daemon in the driftwood crown as he walks into the throne room. And so I just like these moments for all these major characters and what it means for them in terms of what does power look like?

what kind of power is important to them. It's important to Viserys to do this walk on his own, wearing the crown, all that sort of stuff. You know, whereas later he's brought in on a litter. I'm like, where was that litter like earlier, you know, but he needed to do it without the milk of the poppy on his own. And the only person allowed to help him is Damon. And I just, I thought that was, I thought this was incredible. What did you think, Mal? Mallory Rubin? Yeah, this was my favorite moment of the season for, for all the reasons that you just said. I,

I perhaps because I am a monster, perhaps this is because how everybody will respond to this moment. I think exactly what you said, Joe, when the doors open and everybody turns, part of it is the comedy of seeing how someone like Otto Hightower reacts, right? The shock and the horror. I've been found out. I've been thwarted. But when we first see Patty of the opera with a mask and then he waddle

and hobbles forward shuffle by shuffle, presumably missing toe by missing toe. This is why you shouldn't nail down furniture. In a different world, they could have just brought the throne to him and reversed the axis, you know? No, I'm joking.

said, you know, people are coming and offer the Kingsguard. They're coming. Oh, let me help. No. He had Sir Eric Cargill. I thought we were going to do the whole pod about Sir Eric and Sir Eric. That's House of R level stuff. You know, I can't really weigh in on that. I knew Chris was going to talk about that. And the way that we shifted in an instant from the awkward

And comedy of that, but also mixed in the whole time. Like it's not even a shift because you're moved and you're touched and you're horrified and you're sad and you're laughing almost like the way you would at a funeral where it's like nervous laughter, like you're embarrassed. You shouldn't be laughing, but you're like, oh, my God, this is they're really going for it.

And when you see after the crown falls, the hand first, and then the moment where you see the hilt of the dragon egg, and you know it's Damon. And it's just also broke down in tears. It was just so lovely in that come on. And like Joe said, the number of scenes between them, very fraught.

family-defining, decades-defining confrontations between them that took place in front of that throne and the payoff here was so sublime. Like, this is just...

This is the culmination of their relationship and their arcs. And the last thing we saw, granted it was six years ago, but last episode was Damon saying he needs nothing from Viserys, like rejecting the invitation to return. And this is what they needed from each other that whole time. And I think, Chris, to your question about what was Damon's response to seeing him, even when...

when they first go in and see him in his sickbed, the way that Viserys is just like whisper breathing, wheezing out Daemon's name. Like he is so moved emotionally to know that Daemon is there. And then for Rhaenyra and Daemon to present Viserys' namesake to him, like that was just so moving and really lovely and wonderful and sad. And it's like deeply tragic because this is the thing. We've been harsh on Viserys much of the season, rightly so. But,

whether you're watching the show or you're reading Fire and Blood, like the takeaways from Viserys are he hated dissension. Anytime he exiled Daemon, he was ready to welcome him back. Like he and Rhaenyra would have a fight. She was the joy of his life. Like these are the people who are most important to him in the world. His only child. Yeah, right. And...

The speech that he makes then at the dinner to them when he takes his mask off, and it's this inversion of the Alison Raniera, now they see you as you are moment, where he's using that idea of like, let's see each other as we are and try to find understanding and cohesion and strength in that instead of division. And the just absolute tragedy of this like final division

desperate effort to bring the people in his life together. And for that to be his legacy after Jaehaerys' reign and Viserys' reign largely defined by peace, like this debilitating sadness that he knew that the peace was not maintained inside his own house. And he keeps like muttering these little things throughout the episode about how he's sorry, how he needs to fix it.

It's just so heart-wrenching and sad. Yeah, I mean, it's also, I think sometimes when you're in the throes of the episode and you're seeing Elena and Aegon sitting there and you're just like, this is just so twisted. It's hard to kind of negotiate the fact that like, so this is entirely because Rhaenyra and Harwin were together.

off screen, essentially, which is, you know, like this, this romance that birthed these kids that have like essentially become the sticking point for the peaceful succession of this family. I don't know. It's part of it, but that was already, it was already in the mix. Like before Harwin Strong, um,

and more significantly, his brother, Hobart, were like, there's a boy king now. Like, we named a girl because we were desperate and didn't want Damon, but there's a boy in the mix now. So that was already, I think, in the water. But in a world where almost everyone can do pretty much anything they want, she can't have kids by this guy, you know? Or at least those kids can't be in line for succession, right? I will.

I will say, like, we've talked a little bit about this idea that they cast House Valerian as, you know, it's a black house, it's a mixed race house. And how interesting that is in this very episode when Vaemon is like, these kids who look nothing like me.

cannot have my... House of Valarion has stood proud for eons, and you're going to put these kids on our throne. And I think it really cleverly underlines this idea of

Now just extrapolate that out to like these kids who don't look. They are as Targaryen as their uncles, as Uncle Aemon and Uncle Aegon, but they don't look it. And that's a big issue for a house that is so...

proud of its silvery blondness that considers itself gods among men. Now, of course, it's the Hightowers who are pushing this issue, and that is they're pushing it to, you know, help feed their own ambition. But I don't know. I think the question of bloodlines, you know, it's literally the opening credits of the show. Sure. I think it's not quite the same as some of the other you-can-do-whatever-you-want. Yeah. No, I think I mean it more almost in, like, the...

you know, the unfairness of the world that Rhaenyra finds herself in. And that this guy that she's sort of hooked up with has become this albatross that she's carrying around. Whereas, I mean, Aegon may be married to his sister, but he's allowed to do whatever he wants and people cover it up. And, you know, obviously there's a lot of gender inequality going on in this era of the story and in most of Game of Thrones. But I found it fascinating. Yeah.

I think that was at the heart of the Alison Raniere showdown last week too, right? Like that idea that Alison wields of Raniere that like she can do what she wants and Alison's never felt like she could. So I think that is a central tension across these character lines like in relationships. And Chris, I know you've been throughout the last few weeks very like very devoted to this idea. Like couldn't Raniere just say, yeah, you're, yeah, guess what? You're all right. Like what are you going to do about it? Yeah. There are three stories.

strong voice. Thanks for noticing. And let's move forward. And I think like, okay, a couple of things are true. Bastards can rise high in the realm. We've seen that across another television show that we've all watched together. There are plenty of examples of that house Baratheon itself, like traces its roots to Oris Baratheon, Egon, the conquerors bastard half brother, uh,

Plenty of people who are currently aligned with Rhaenyra know. They know this to be true, and they have accepted it and decided to move forward with her, including Corlys, right? He's not like, what are you talking about? He says history remembers names. So people can make their individual choice there. I don't think it's that. It's that, like Jo was just noting earlier,

The push from the Hightowers, and even more so, like a lot of what Otto said to Alicent, part of it was gaslighting and manipulation, but part of it was true, was the realm, and this was what Renise said to Rhaenyra in episode two, like the realm at large. There would be people across the realm who would not be ready for Rhaenyra, who would not want it. And there would be people across the realm who would be ready to support Aegon. And so this...

an acknowledgement of her children's parentage is a delegitimization of their claim. It weakens their claim, and thus it weakens hers. Think of the moment when Viserys said, sure up your line, sure up your succession. It would cost her their biggest and most important ally in House Velaryon. Obviously, that's complicated already. We talked about the Faith of the Seven earlier. It would risk inciting the Faith. Think about in Game of Thrones, every time we're walking through the streets of King's Landing, and...

adherence to the faith or shouting about the abominations of, of, of incest, but also bastardry. Right. So it would give Alison and the greens a leg, everything that they needed. If she just was like opening for off my back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's this line in the book around this time about baby Viserys.

Yeah. And about how his dragon never hatched and that the greens use this as sort of implicate, even though Viserys is like baby Viserys, Rhaenyra and Daemon's kid is very obviously a Targaryen, very blonde baby, right? All that sort of stuff. But the fact that his dragon egg never hatched, like the high towers, the greens will use sort of any excuse to undermine. And so it's like, they'll, they'll, they'll attack it from both ends. And one of the ends that they'll attack it from is, um,

these Targaryens aren't Targaryen enough. I think that's why it's so important that we open with Jace struggling, overlearning, high Valyrian, you know what I mean? It's just like, how Targaryen? Is that these guys just aren't ready for primetime. Yeah. I feel like as usual, it's difficult to ask about what comes next because we have some sense of what comes next if we read the books.

So we can just leave it there. I feel like this show is certainly revving up for an exciting last two episodes. We'll be back with you on Sunday night, next Sunday night to talk about episode nine, the penultimate episode of the first season. Mallory and Joanna will be with you on Tuesday for a deep dive on this episode and all the episodes on House of R on Ringiverse. Andy and I will hit it. We were produced as usual by Steve Allman. Any closing thoughts?

One quick thing I want to say for our beloved pal Andy Greenwald, who is struggling with the show, and I love him and I respect his struggle.

He was asking for relatable content. Here's my favorite most relatable content moment from this episode. Rhaenyra naming her kid Aegon, which in the books, which in the book really pissed Alyson off. Like that is, that is actually genuinely relatable content. I think I've heard of families being like, you stole my baby name, you know? The Viserys walk to the throne is very much Andy completing a 5k. You know, like it's just like, it's like what do you do?

Thanks so much for doing this with me. I can't wait to talk to you about next week. So we'll see you then.

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