'House of the Dragon' Episode 7 Reactions | Talk the Thrones
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Hello, and welcome to Talk the Thrones. My name is Chris Ryan, and I am an editor at TheRinger.com. Joining me as always is Ringer senior staff writer Joanna Robinson, and a woman who has never lost an eye over dragon ownership, although the knight is young. Yes. It's Mallory Rubin.

What's up? Chris, so many dragons to talk to you about today. There's a lot of dragons, and they were all so distinct from one another. That was the thing. And the thing is, is if you're going to shoot dragons, I like shooting them at dusk, you know, because I think day for night is the ideal time. It's just like, who needs distinction between like, you know, scales and colors or whatever. Let's just go with it. I got it.

We are talking about the seventh episode of the first season of House of the Dragon. The episode was called Driftmark, although I think One Wedding and a Funeral is a more appropriate title. It was directed by your boy, Miguel Sapochnik, and it featured a aforementioned wedding and a aforementioned funeral, a knife fight, some incest. Joanna, what will you remember from this episode? It has to be the princess and the queen and only one knife between their faces. That moment was incredible. And it's,

What was incredible about it is that I've seen it one million times in the trailers, and it was still extremely potent for me. So, you know, with apologies to Vhagar and sex on the beach, it's the knife fight for sure. Don't worry, I got you covered on the sex on the beach front end.

the Vhagar front because in addition to your pick, those were my favorite parts of the episode. This one was full in general of a lot of shots and lines and moments that we had seen teased in the trailer. So it was really thrilling to see that come fully to life. Mal, I had this vision of you like you're in SEAL Team 6 with night vision on watching that sex scene, like just like just so you could get all the like the contrast down.

Did I go frame by frame? Did I sit in a completely dark room and watch this in the dead of night to ensure max optimal viewing conditions? Who's to say? Well, look, you're dedicated to reporting. You make sure you get the story. She's an artisan. This is an act of scholarship. Shall I recap this episode? Chris, please. Please.

Welcome to the worst funeral of all time. It's got drinking, surreptitious looks, a new old hand of the king, some early bedtimes, and not a ton of reverence for the moment.

It's Lane is Memorial and Damon doesn't seem too sad. Agon gets lit. Lane or nearly pulls a dude from Dunkirk walking into the ocean part. And Rhaenyra is awkwardly trying and failing at making small talk with everyone. The Saris tries to get Damon to come back to King's Landing, but Damon is really, really, really committed to this pentose bit, which maybe means no state taxes. I don't know.

So Viserys just goes to sleep. We learn Otto is back at his side and Larys is the new Lord of Harrenhal. And Kristen is still a type A dickhead. There is a discussion between Rhaenys and Corlys about the merits of Pentos and Driftmark's medical services and whether or not Lena could have been saved if she had been home. There's some unresolved issues about whether Corlys is transferring his ambition to his wife,

They have a disagreement about which children, Lena's or Rhaenyra's, should inherit Driftmark. The long night gives way to some more intense chats as we find Rhaenyra and Daemon reuniting after more than 10 years. I think this is like the decade since they've seen each other, right? Seems like it. As far as we know. Their little sandy walk might be my favorite scene of the show so far. They kiss, they do it on the beach, incest, Game of Thrones, then some dragon stuff happens that I will need explained to me.

Back at the Driftmark Hotel, there is a dust-up between Rhaenyra and Alicent's kids over who fathered Rhaenyra's kids. Aemon talks a lot of shit and brags about leasing a dragon, then loses an eye. Everyone is in a tizzy, most of all Alicent, who demands some Hammurabi justice from

She grabs a knife and goes after Rhaenyra, cutting her arm but exposing herself. Viserys rules that the night has gone on long enough and everyone goes back to their chambers to get sewn up and stew in their own emotions. Despite Laenor's recommitment to his familial duties, Rhaenyra decides that she is best matched to her uncle, Daemon, and she quickly talks him into quote-unquote murdering her husband,

Not that that's a direct quote. I'm just putting air quotes around that. Which he subcontracts to said husband's lover who stages a rather implausible sword fight.

A body believed to be Lenore's is found in the fireplace, understandably upsetting Renise and Corliss. Rhaenyra gets married to Daemon, but wait, who is that with the fresh haircut taking a kayak for two out of Driftmark? It's Lenore and Carl, those crazy kids. Will wonders never cease? What an episode. Great work, Chris. A lot going on. And Joe, I wanted to start here. Yeah. Let's start with this knife fight between Alyson and Rhaenyra, 10 years in the making, if not more.

Here's my read on this, and you tell me where I'm at with this. Yeah. I think that Alicent sees her life as this profound sacrifice for the sake of the realm, which is ironic, I guess, because in some ways Rhaenyra knows that her life is also a sacrifice for the sake of the realm, but for different reasons because of the secret that Viserys has given her. But Alicent is kind of like, I have...

given away my individuality to the extent that she understood it at the time, to become a queen and a mother and a wife. And this was because her father put her in the position to do that in somewhat, you know, creepy ways. And that Viserys selected her in somewhat creepy ways. And that Westeros needed a queen after Emma died. And in Alicent's view, Rhaenyra has basically led a life of following her fancy from Daemon to Criston to Laenor to Harwin to Daemon again. And her children are illegitimate and pose like a

a mortal threat to her own children. So in that sense, I can kind of get where, where the switchblade came out. Yeah. No, I think that's, that's a perfect read, I think. And her speech that she gives there, because we had heard that line, where is duty, where is sacrifice so many times in the trailer, but,

But what she says before that, what have I done but what was expected of me forever upholding the kingdom, the family, the law, while you flout all and do what you please. I think that's what she said. I didn't have closed captionings. Where is sacrifice? Where is duty? It's trampled under your pretty feet again. And I think we're going to talk about that knife in a second, but I think her saying where is duty and Rhaenyra can see her duty out of the corner of her eye and the shape of that knife reflected in the fireplace. Yeah.

There's just this wide gulf of a secret between these women. Allison cannot know what has been weighing on Rhaenyra. We hear her unburden herself to Daemon a bit when she talks about ever since she was made the heir, the pressure that she's felt, all of that. But Allison doesn't see that. Allison can't know the full breadth of it. Daemon doesn't even know the full breadth of it as far as we know. He doesn't know about the prophecy. And so...

I was re-watching interviews that Emma Darcy and Olivia Cooke gave before the series started. And something they kept talking about was that these two women who loved each other desperately wanted to reconnect, but neither of them would be the first one to ever rebuild that bridge. And so I was trying to read that, even though I kind of felt like Rhaenyra did last week, but...

I was trying to read that out of that knife confrontation of like, these women desperately want to connect, but there's so much in the way and there's so much space between them at this point that it feels almost possible. And there's all the men in the room also who, as you pointed out, Chris, have been responsible for driving this wedge between them. So this, Mal, I remember when we used to do Talk the Thrones about the original series, and sometimes I would butt my head up against...

occasionally, what was on screen versus what was obviously in a text of some kind. And I think if I had an issue over the last couple of episodes, even though I've enjoyed myself and especially enjoyed Emma Darcy and Olivia Cooke, it's like there's this 10-year time gap that we didn't get to see any of. And that Allison's anger at Rhaenyra

Is like, I think I intellectually understand it, but emotionally don't get it from watching the show sometimes. Right. Like I think and then this episode was the one where I was like, oh, yeah, people have been telling her for probably a decade that one day Rainier is going to kill her and her children.

To solidify her claim. Her dad definitely has been telling her that. Yeah. So that, that she's now telling her own kids that. Yeah. Yes. And she's now like, I mean, I mean, she's paranoid. She might be right. She might be paranoid, but like, what did you make of that fight? And what did you make of their, their conflict in general in this episode?

such a incredibly rich and amazingly interesting scene. Every facial expression from every person in the room tells us something. I think that what Joe said is exactly right and crucial. You know, Allison might as well be a member of House Tully here, espousing family duty honor as these sacred principles. And I think that the

while you flout it all to do as you please line is maybe as central and crucial of a thing as we've heard from Alison across any of the seven episodes, because there is this, and Rhaenyra throws this idea of this cloak of righteousness back in Alison's face, which I think was equally important, right? Now they see you. Now they see you as you are. This is a moment of...

Like, this is it. Even at the beginning of this hour of TV, when Rhaenyra and Daemon are discussing what happened with the Strongs, Rhaenyra is saying, I do not believe Alicent is capable of murder. Later that day, Alicent demands a child's eye.

As retribution, it was impossible not to think back to one of our earliest, most intense Game of Thrones experiences, the showdown at the end of the crossroads with Cersei and King Robert and Ned and Joffrey and Arya and Sansa and Nymeria and Lady when Cersei said, and what of the dire wolf? What of the beast that savaged your son? And then later we have another wolf, like this thirst for justice and vengeance at all costs.

But the thing that we needed from Alicent here was that humanity, that vulnerability. So when she says this thing to Rhaenyra about how Rhaenyra gets to do whatever she wants, and Alicent is on the one hand espousing duty as this sacred, precious thing. It is at the heart of her crusade and her quest, maintaining it, nurturing it, bringing other people inside of her version of it. But it is also something that she deeply resents, that she has had to live her life inside of it. And so if you look at the conversation later,

After the knife fight between Allison and Otto, there's this incredibly strange mix of emotions and competing instincts where on the one hand, he's almost looking at her for the first time as a true partner. Yeah. Yeah. But he's also a player in the game, but he's also still using her as a pawn. Now go to him.

And she has been caught inside of this. And this, again, is why we needed those first five episodes to understand what Alison means when she's saying sacrifice. Because otherwise, all there is is villainy. You have to have that heart. I think, Chris, like when you're saying like you're missing, maybe feeling like you're missing an evolution of a character over those 10 years...

I can sympathize with that. I do think every time we saw Allison bouncing an enormous child on her hip, like, you just saw the tension being stretched in her until it snapped. You know, where it's just sort of like she just felt like...

buried under her literal husband, that scene that we all recoiled from, you know, like it's just been piling on top of her, on top of her, on top of her until this break here. Yeah. I think that this is a, in some ways, like this show asks different things of the viewers than Game of Thrones did. Like,

I find myself in my head trying to like kind of orient myself towards like, who am I rooting for in this, in this, in this like argument between Alison and Rhaenyra. And I, I don't, I guess I like Rhaenyra more just because like she has more fun shit happening. And Alison's more like, I'm stuck in here with Larys, Kristen and my dad. Like, it's like, I enjoy Rhaenyra's sort of storyline more, but to me, Rhaenyra was like,

You married my dad. That was pretty weird. I'm going to take a chill from our friendship for a while. Then Alicent has this idea that Rhaenyra, who's been, you know, they both had things happen to them that they didn't quite expect. Rhaenyra didn't expect to be named the heir to the throne and Alicent didn't expect to be selected to be Viserys' new wife.

And then I guess I keep saying to myself, like, what did Rhaenyra do to her that's so bad? You know, like aside from living her life and doing the best she can under the circumstances with a husband who doesn't want to like go to bed with her and her heart with other people. But I don't know. It's just there's a little bit of like, I'm trying to like find my way here. I think the aspect of like jealousy and resentment is in the mix. Just sort of like...

Exactly what Mal was saying. Well, you fly out all and do what you please. Trample down to your pretty feet. Like, you just get to do whatever you want. And it is burning me up inside that I have to fuck your decaying dad constantly instead, you know? And so I think...

And I say that, I say jealousy with a lot of empathy for Alicent. Because like, you know, I think we've all experienced that where you're just like, you feel such resentment towards someone and you almost know it's irrational, but you're like, but I can't, I can't not feel this. Yeah. And I think there's also this element with Alicent in this episode in particular of like, well, what was that for then? Right? Why did I do everything that was expected of me? Why did I have to...

but prioritize duty and my family and this quest above all, if it was going to cost me, if it was going to cost me things I hold sacred and not gain me what it was supposed to. Her children are not, Egon is not currently the heir. One, we hear her express to, I wish he was though. I know. Love that guy. Love it. Showing from Egon, we can do the whole pod on that.

We hear her express... If we go back a week to that really great small council sequence again, remember that? Of course. When Lionel said, yeah, I'll look into what Rhaenyra is asking me to look into. And there's a moment where Alyssa voices in this episode, like, the Ceres will always choose her, will always side with her. So if you're not even gaining that loyalty...

And then that gets back to what Allison voiced in another moment of real vulnerability and humanity to Laris at the end of last episode that set into course numerous horrific events that are then bearing out across this episode. Like, is there no one?

who will choose me. Now, of course, that is not an accurate reflection of her circumstances. As we talked about last week, there is an element of irrationality at play there, but there is also this through line of loneliness and feeling this real need to foster meaningful relationships that are eluding her, are eluding everybody. That's top of mind for everyone across this episode. And so what do you unearth?

in your pursuit of that. And like, we got the payoff right away when, in this episode, for what Allison had said last week to Laris about Otto. Like, he'd be, he'd be partial to me, right? And even Otto has a moment during the dagger scene. He's like, put the knife down.

But then he goes to her later. And where is he in that whole scene? Standing next to the driftwood throne position, right in arm's reach of, of a symbol of power as always, while Viserys is on his cane in front of it, limping around yelling at people who won't listen to him. But Otto has eyes only for Damon in that scene, which I thought was hilarious. I was going to, I mean, I thought that that scene was staged really expertly because it was almost a piece of theater that

where these two women have been driven to these almost histrionic extremes, right? Like they've been pushed to this like point of violence and all these men are kind of smirking, standing around looking at them and being like, well, I'm enjoying the show. No, nothing really is going to happen here at any given moment. We're going to step in and stop it or like we're going to let this play out to whatever extent we want.

And even the choreography of Kristen start... First of all, Kristen definitely egging it on a little bit. And Kristen stepping in and then Damon stepping in. And then everybody kind of like cutting each other off at various points. And who's interested in what? And then, of course, how we end it with Rhaenyra and Damon with Corlys and Rhaenys on one side. And then the Hightower kind of Kristen-Viserys side.

I just thought it was like, you know, Miguel Sapochnik is obviously known for these huge set pieces. And we think of Battle of the Bastards, but this was a different kind of piece of staging. I also love the way the boys were staged. Like, Rhaenyra's boys kept sort of peeking out from behind her skirts, essentially. Whereas, like, Aemon's facing the other direction in a chair, like, sometimes looking over his shoulder, but often just making facial expressions that no one could see. Right. I love that we found out what...

Sir Kristen Cole's limit was, which was taking an eye out of a child. So it's nice to know he has limits. When even Kristen's not in on your plan, Allison, he has gone too far. But I did love the moment when Damon just stepped in and easily held him back. Allison was going like Michael Madsen in Reservoir Dogs. Oh, God. I love it.

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Amen has come up.

Eamon goes through somewhat of a transformation in this episode, both facially, but in terms of pet ownership. Mallory, this great sex scene between uncle and niece is happening on the beach. We all feel great about our choices that we're watching this on Sunday night. I do, yeah. I thought for a second, I was like, oh, Eamon's going to spot them and this is going to be controversial.

It turns out that's not controversial. It's a tender love scene. You just got to put some face makeup on and it gets consecrated. But the big deal is that Aemon finds a dragon, which he's had some issues with in the past of figuring out which dragon is his or whether or not he's got the special sauce. And he essentially takes Vhagar, who was what bequeathed to Lena's daughter? Not officially. No.

I mean, yes, he takes Vhagar, but the second part about Bequeath to Reyna is not accurate. Reyna would have to claim Vhagar, which is what Aemond says in response. Explain the significance of this to me as if

I think I'm better than a third grader, but if I was a high school kid who really liked sports and didn't really read that much. I mean, Dragon Riding's a sport, so I got you. Come on in. Come on into this ring of fire. There's a lot here. There's a lot here. In terms of the significance, I think we can actually start at the end and then kind of zip back. Awesome.

Otto, to his credit, sums it up as well as anyone when he says to Alicent, on the heels, remember, of Alicent saying last week to Aemond, your obsession with those beasts goes beyond understanding. And we were like, boy, there's a missing level of awareness here of how significant these dragons are for House Targaryen. Otto says here,

What that rogue Aemond has done in winning Vhagar to our side, the boy was right. It's worth a thousand times the price he paid. We cannot overstate the magnitude of this, sincerely. Now there's a side.

Now we're talking sides. Like, Viserys is like, we're a family, we're a family. We're not a family. We have sides. Yeah, and Otto's like, we've never been. It's always been two sides, yeah. And, you know, elsewhere in the episode, we hear Rhaenyra say to Daemon, the greens, to speak the team name of the opponent aloud in Valyrian in that moment. So yes, the sides are crystallizing before our eyes in this episode. Yeah.

In terms of that idea, though, of how crucial it is not only to have dragons, to have that power for your side, Vhagar in particular, we talked about this a bit last week, is

Vhagar is the oldest dragon currently alive in the story, the biggest dragon. I loved the way that Aemon's claiming of Vhagar was filmed and framed. Looks like the camera's on top of a skyscraper looking down at him. When he climbs the ropes, he may as well be scaling a building. Like, the heft and magnitude of this magical creature was so apparent. It was just incredible. And I think that's

And, you know, we're coming off the heels of last episode where the fact that Aemond doesn't have a dragon, you're the only one of us without a dragon, Aegon, his brother says, is this source of loneliness and isolation. So we feel like the heft and the stakes of this pursuit. There are a lot of similarities with the way this plays out in Fire and Blood here, but also a lot of differences. Something that

Joe mentioned in our book reader portion of our last week anticipating this looking ahead was how, because we had seen in the teaser that Lena and Damon's kids, Bela and Raina, are the ones who see this. And then having that personal connection. Having the girls there because they aren't there in the book. It's just the boys fighting. So to bring Lena's daughters into it and to have Raina say, like, I want to

I was going to claim the dragon. Like, it's my mom's dragon. And for Aemon to just not give a single shit at the funeral for her mom is a whole extra level of nastiness. Just very messy and intense all around.

I was thinking a lot during this flight. We hear Aemond issue commands in Valerian and put that training that we've gotten a glimpse of to use in real time. The initial trepidation, the rebuke from Vhagar, but then his insistence, his conviction to try no matter what.

And there's this great line in Fire and Blood. Later, he would say that he was so afraid of being caught that he forgot to be frightened of being burned to death and eaten. Call it boldness. Call it madness. Call it fortune or the will of the gods or the caprice of dragons. Who can know the mind of such a beast? And...

When we see the shaking initially and he can barely hold on and then that pure vertical ascent and descent, like it's a test. Can he hold on? Is he worthy of claiming Vhagar's mount? I found myself thinking back to season eight of Game of Thrones and getting to see Jon ride Rhaegal and how it was thrilling, but it felt like it was missing a degree of meaning.

magnitude, like that everybody who was bearing witness to that should have understood the unparalleled significance of that moment. And we got that here. Like I had been so looking forward to seeing this play out on screen and you felt like

the heft of it, the consequence of it. And you also felt the magic of it. And I know I've been talking about this a lot over the last few weeks, but this is like, I think this is important. This is a fantasy story. And I love the politicking and the palace intrigue as much as anyone, genuinely.

We can't lose sight of the magic at the heart of the story. And I loved seeing that captured here. Let me ask Chris. Chris, you were talking about sides. What are the sides as you see it right now? Pretty much how they broke down after that knife fight. You know, on those two sides of the room. I would say that it's like Allison, Otto, Kristen...

children who are now in air force. And then on the other side, I would say definitely Damon and Rhaenyra. And I wonder whether Corlys and Rhaenys are kind of like in kind of in between, right? Like Corlys has obviously made entreaties to Damon in the past, but has also been loyal to Viserys in the past. I've obviously Rhaenys is like, I,

I like the entire pursuit of this power is what has destroyed my family and killed my children. So if you think that like, this is fun for me, you're wrong. I definitely felt like that. That was sort of what was going on. You know, Joe, I wanted to ask you, I thought now and now very articulately and wonderfully explained the dragon part about it. This is a very cool episode as like, far as that performance by the kid who's playing Amen. I'm sorry. I don't have it in front of me, but like him staring into the fire pit briefly and like,

almost showing empathy for the other kids around. So close. And then the transformation that he goes through with like shots at makeup department because immediately, but immediately you're like, he's like lost all innocence. And he is like, this was a fair trade. Yes. He's called Eamon One-Eye in the book from now on. Yeah. I thought that kid was incredible. I think, I think all the kids are really good, but I think the Ty Tenen and Leo Acton are, are,

just above and beyond. And when you think about all those moments, those, like, okay, first of all, this wake for Lena looks like every pre-wedding cocktail hour I've ever been to in my life. Like, it's always on a... Everyone hanging in a courtyard. It's on a terrace. There's weird little groups of people who don't know each other. One guy standing in the ocean for some reason. Yeah, you know. He's already hammered. The party's already started down there. And you're just sort of like...

He forgot to eat. He's just tanked. Is he going to make it through the ceremony? I hate the cocktail hour. I think that's the most awkward part of a wedding. But anyway, the tension between so many of these people, because I think you draw the line pretty correctly, but one dynamic that I thought was super interesting in this episode was between Renice and Rhaenyra, where Renice is just icing Rhaenyra and icing Jace out.

You know, she goes over and she comforts the girls and she is like nothing for Jason that moment. And we've been wondering, like, how would Corliss react to these boys? And Corliss is like, oh, I see no problem.

There's still going to be a, like a grandson who's technically mine on the throne. No problem. Then Luke, you're going to inherit drift mark. No problem. You know, and Mallory, I hope you really enjoyed Luke's Luke's. I don't want it. I hope that was just for you. Channeling Jon Snow in full. I don't want it. I was waiting for Luke to say he'd looked into the Night King's eyes. But,

But that icing between Rhaenys and Rhaenyra is so interesting, and I think it complicates that clear line that you were talking about, Chris, and I think that's really smart. But if you do dragon math on both sides of those lines, it did really matter that Vhagar got added to Alyson's side of the room, because before that, they just had, like, Sunfire, which is Aegon's dragon, and Rhaenys,

I don't know if she's a dragon rider. I can't really tell. We can confirm this. We can confirm this now. So I checked, because there are three dragons flying over the ship when Vhagar joins at the end. And I'm like, it can only be Dreamfire. Also, it looks blue, but who else could it even be? And then I checked on the HBO Dragon Guide. You click into Dreamfire and it just says it right there. Okay, great. I'm like, okay, it would be great if it was.

it on the show. Okay, but Helena has a dragon, but does she seem really like she's interested in dragon? No, she wasn't even going to training. She wants her bugs. Cares about her bugs. So like, Alicent's side was really lacking, whereas like Cyrax and Caraxes and all those others are on the other side of the room. So getting Vhagar is just like going somewhere towards tipping the dragon scales for them. Remind me who between Aegon and Aemon was like, which one of them was like, maybe I'll marry my sister and keep the bloodline pure. Was that Aegon?

It's Aegon. Well, Aegon was like chafing against it. He's like, I guess this happened off screen that Aegon and Helena are betrothed. And Aegon's like, she's a weird bug girl. I do not want to marry her. I want to fuck like any other serving girl. We both have really long legs. And she's looking at his fucking...

Incredible delivery. And then shouting wench. But I loved it. I loved Eamon's reaction where Eamon's like, what Eamon says is what Rhaenyra then does with Daemon where he was like, it will shore up our claim. Yeah.

Keep the bloodline strong. You know, and Aegon, like, does his, you know, and Aemond's just like, ugh, Aegon. You know, so the fact that he's like, my brother sucks, my sister's weird, maybe I'll go bond with my nephews. Nope, that's not working out for me either. So dragon friend it is, you know, is sort of his journey through this episode.

I think. It was fascinating to see Aemon's response to Aegon there because, like, I think, Jo, one of the things we've had a lot of fun tracking is who seems to take being a Targaryen seriously? Who seems to take that Tide old Valeria seriously? That is obviously very central to everything we'll talk about with Daemon and Rhaenyra in a few minutes, but you really felt that from Aemon across this episode. The other thing I just

quickly wanted to say about Helena because this was something we couldn't say last week, but now we can because we've seen what happened with Amand. We've seen him lose the eye. It seems that they are establishing Helena on the show as a dreamer, as a child who is just spouting props.

Croposy casually in the courtyard while playing with spiders. Last week, when Allison said to Eamon, you will have a dragon one day, I know it. Helena said he'll have to close an eye. Now, this was something we talked about in our book reader section. Yeah, the book readers are like losing their shit. She must be a dreamer. So and then she has this thing here. And again, we don't have subtitles on the screener, so I don't know if I got this exactly right. But I think she's saying hand turns loom, spool of green, spool of black, dragons of flesh, weaving dragons of thorns.

So that's interesting. And more broadly, given Viserys' obsession with dragon dreams, I'm really hoping we get to see Viserys

them interact and like talk about this and what he thinks of having a child who is a dreamer. I really hope that becomes part of the story. Can I ask, I want to do a quick thing about the Viserys being obsessed with dragon dreams, but also knowing about this, basically this prophecy about the future of this world and why Rhaenyra needs to know this and what Rhaenyra needs to do.

The significance of Allison using that dagger, because I assume that's the same dagger, right? Oh, yeah. I guess I'm curious whether or not there is an implication that Rhaenyra is almost trolling Allison, because she's like, now they see who you really are. To some extent, Allison is trying to shore up her family, but Rhaenyra... Is Rhaenyra starting to act...

what the possible future of the realm is and knowing that the long winter could come and knowing that if it does, she's supposed to be the person who defends the world against this evil? Or is it still pretty... We're still talking about family politics and family security. Does that make sense, what I'm asking? Well, I think you can't look at Viserys, who is essentially dropping body parts by the minute and confusing his...

A live wife for his dead wife and stuff like that. And not feel as Rhaenyra that, like, my time's almost here. Like, it's coming soon. That this is all going to be on me. And, like, as each Targaryen monarch goes through learning about this dream, this prophecy, you know, an heir will learn about it and say, well, maybe it's my dad. Right.

oh no shit, it's me. Like that's got to be the sort of journey that you go through learning about this prophecy. And so Rhaenyra, it has to be hanging on Rhaenyra. And so what I think is really wild, the moment where she's talking to Daemon and the show, as Mallory said, like is trying to fool us for five minutes into thinking that Rhaenyra could kill Laenor, who seems very nice. I had this moment where I was like, because it's unclear who's behind Laenor's death in the book. And I had this moment where,

Where I was like, oh God, they're going for... Like, Rhaenyra is...

Going ham. Like, yeah, she's going hard. And now it's going to be Alicent who's tough and Rhaenyra who's tough. And that's going to be like the conflict here. And then they pulled all the way back from that. We're not even Damon, Damon who kills like a, you know, a butler, a Valerian butler, but like not even Damon is the full villain behind Laenor's death, which is a tough moment in the book. And they decided to make this big change for the show where

where Laenor gets to live for now. And that, you know, that actor doesn't have to put a wig on his head anymore. That must be nice. And like, that's a real interesting move because it means we are dealing with right now,

the more heroic Rhaenyra team and the more villainous Alicent team. And I don't know if the show felt like they needed to give us people who are easier to root for than the book does, or I don't know. What do you think about that? Yeah. I mean, Mal, you tell me, I have to admit the first time I watched it through, I was like, Oh wow. Laenor, like Rhaenyra killed her husband.

Like, I kind of read it more like that. And then obviously, I thought that Laenor escaped with Carl, like that he couldn't go through with it. And that Carl was like, like, they tried to pay me off to murder you. Let's abscond to the Stepstones. Right? Yeah, no, I definitely read it as everyone is in cahoots. And because we get that...

We get that earlier. There's so many, so many scenes in this episode that I think will be very rewarding for rewatching.

not only after completing the episode, but further down the road. You know, with Laenor, like the twist, seeing him alive is so shocking for numerous reasons. And I have a couple questions about it, what it means that he's paired with a dragon, sea smoke. I'm really curious to know what it means for the relationship between Corlys and Rhaenys and Rhaenyra because, you know,

Part of what Rhaenyra and Daemon are actively cultivating as we hear is this idea that the realm will whisper that I was somehow responsible is something Rhaenyra says. And Daemon replies, yet we must burn. We will know the truth of it. And Rhaenyra says they will fear what else we might be capable of.

In general, I understand the strategy. What about this house that you definitely need on your side? If they think this about you, that's a problem. Now you have the grandchildren who are in the mix as a tie still, and that's something. But I'm glad, Joe, that you cited that real coldness at the cheese board between Rhaenys and Rhaenyra because it does feel really central. And you hear Corlys and Rhaenys arguing about

and this idea of legacy throughout this episode and when ambition is masquerading as something more pure. And I, you know, that Luke Corliss scene we mentioned earlier, like, I thought that was devastating because Luke says, like, if this happens, it means if I'm the Lord of TripTongue, it means everyone's dead. And it really, there were a few moments like that in this episode, but that one in particular really crystallizes, like, what we talked about last week, that these adults are,

Sometimes they're seeking something that is like born on the wings, not only of a dragon, but good intention. But still, like they are turning these children into their pawns and all of this hate is festering. And so with Rhaenyra and Laenor, like I had, I think, a similar bit of oscillation watching that because there was a part of me that was like, wait, before you realize the twist and realize he's still alive. Right.

That was like, wow, this is a tough one. Like, killing Laenor, who we all really like, would be a really, really difficult thing to accept that Rhaenyra would be capable of doing. But I think what Jo said is really important. Like,

The story in so many ways is propped up on this idea of moral gray all around. Now, cold murder is not moral gray. That's just bad, to be clear. But if it's more of a heroes versus villains divide, at least at this point, then that is a distinct thing from, I think, like the way the dance plays out in the text. I'll be really curious to see if that changes at some point or like how long that is maintained. Yeah.

I mean, we do have to remember that Damon like killed his wife in the. Yeah. It's like, and he says everyone's capable of depravity. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Um,

Yeah, there's this quote from the section of the book, because I'm thinking a lot about Corlys and Rhaenys and if they are ever going to find out if Laenor is still alive or what's going to go on. But basically, their daughter dies. Because they didn't go to the wedding. Presumably that happened on their shores and they were like, you know what, we're just... I think that's Dragonstone. Oh, is it? It's Dragonstone in the book, but also all the smoke, I think, is coming from the dragon on the volcano. Okay, I thought that might have been like a marine layer. Yeah.

But the section of the book says, for this was to be a year when many of the long simmering tensions and jealousies that had plagued the seven kingdoms finally came to a boil. A year when many and more would have reasons to wail and grieve and rend their garments, though none more than the sea snake, Lord Corley Solarian, and his noble wife, Princess Rhaenys, she who might have been queen. So like, this is an, like, they lost two of their children, rapid succession. How is this going to...

play out for them. And there's a division in their marriage currently where Renise is like, I'm not down with these white kids who are not my grandchildren as far as I'm concerned. Give, give, give the, give Driftmark to our granddaughter. Like, do that. And Corliss is like, oh. Big moments

Well, I think that what's his distinction? That he's just like, history doesn't remember bloodlines or remember names. Or what does he say? Yeah, history doesn't remember blood, remembers names. And he says, what is this brief mortal life if not the pursuit of legacy? Obviously an incredible whiff of the Tywin Lannister legacy energy there. That was a great conversation between Corlys and Renise because they are both...

Renice, there's something about what she's saying. Let's pass Driftmark through Lena's line. That's lovely, right? You're telling me that I was robbed of the crown and it's wrong. Here's a chance to do this inside of your own household. Let's pass it down through our daughter to her daughters. But...

And there's all of this like mixed tension because what is Renise doing? And Corlys does say, you'd have me cast an even darker shadow over those boys in their ideas. Like it's unambiguous what the takeaway from that would be. Not only what that would mean for Luke, you know, basically being disinherited from the line of the Lord of the Tides, but what the impact would be on Jace there.

because that shadow would extend. And so it's a, what she's suggesting is a threat to Corlys' core ambition of that proximity to the Iron Throne. And I think like to get back to what you asked 10 minutes ago, Chris, that I never answered, Laenor and whether we think they're in cahoots. Like, I think that, I think that that conversation where Laenor comes back, sees what has happened and

hysterical moment where he like is like, oh God, is everything okay? And they cut to Luke and Jace. No one has given Luke a cloth for his bleeding head. I know. And Luke, Jace, a cloth for his bleeding head and Luke has just like two socks stuffed up his broken nose. Their faces were, that was priceless. And Rhaenyra's being stitched up from the wound, from the dagger, that dagger, the fire, the blood, fire, blood, very present throughout this episode at symbols. But Luke,

One of the things that Laenor says to Rhaenyra, he's saying, I'll be a better husband. I'll be a better father. I'll do all these things that I maybe haven't done a good enough job of doing. And she's like, if you want to know what you can do, it's this, right? That's my assumption is that that's the part of the conversation that takes place next. But I think also like he said,

We made an arrangement all those years ago to do our duty and yet explore happiness. But there are times when I think these things cannot mutually exist. And so they're basically flipping that for him. Go follow that happiness then instead of the duty. Now, to be clear, there are a lot of tradeoffs here. He has to leave his family, his life, his name, his dragon. He's doing all that anyway. He just wants to go fight in the stepstones with Carl. Like he gets he gets some kind of like approximation of his dream anyway.

We've seen how unhappy he is. And like he even says, I hate the gods for making me as they did, which is so heart-wrenching and devastating to hear in this episode. So like he makes a choice, if he makes a choice, if that is in fact how it played out, that Rhaenyra didn't, right? To go across the Narrow Sea and live a completely different kind of life. And again, it's not without complication or sacrifice, to be clear. But I thought that contrast of how Rhaenyra responded to...

to Kristen's very self-interested and personally motivated proposal. I hate that guy. And to everything that plays out here was notable as well. I also think that, like, to my earlier query about whether or not Joffrey's sexuality motivated Kristen beating his face off, Kristen's, like, sneering laughter when Alicent, like, makes some comment about Laenor's sexuality. I think that just, like, really...

That underlines that for me. I hate that guy. But the one criticism, a strong criticism I saw levied at Rhaenyra after last week was how could she be so reckless to have only kids with Harwin? Why didn't she try to have kids with Laenor? So we get two scenes in this episode where she says that to Daemon and then she and Laenor talk about that as well. So like...

Was what she did with Harwin reckless to a certain degree? Yes, but it wasn't that she didn't try to also have Valarian looking children. Yeah, they tried to install that offense. Their quarterback couldn't get it. I wanted to say, because I guess it's kind of weird when you're talking about a Game of Thrones show, but especially with this one,

You get to the point where you're really breaking down the morality of like, did they stage? And we kind of just skipped over the part where the niece marries the uncle, which is like, you know. Let's talk about it now. I'm for it. In terms of the characters and in terms of like what's happening, you're just like, I buy it. And I guess in the world of this show, it works or whatever. Yeah.

What really jumped out at me was the links to which Rhaenyra has to go to be with the person she loves, I guess, versus the way the men in this show can just do whatever the fuck they want. You know, like, I know that Rhaenyra has to essentially put together an immersive theatrical experience. Yeah.

to get divorced or whatever from, from Laenor. Daemon could just kill his wife. Like, he's like, this, I, you know, people keep nagging me about her. I'm just going to go show up one day and startle her horse and then finish the job. And,

You know, even I remember earlier in the season, I think it was Otto and Viserys or Daemon and Viserys who were basically like, when we were their age, we used to just like screw everything inside. Daemon says that to Viserys. Yeah. And it's just like, well, it's different for women. You know what I mean? Yeah. And meanwhile, like, so all of these people who are standing watching Rhaenyra and Alyson fight are basically depraved.

But Rhaenyra's husband being unable to father her children is shattering the kingdom. And I do think that they've done a good job at juxtaposing the sort of way in which the men operate without impunity and the women have to operate under the cover of darkness all the time. Quite literally, when they consummate their relationship. Yeah.

Yes. I think that's true. I guess, I mean, Laenor also had to participate in this immersive theatrical experience with the person that he loves. For sure. And I think I should just say really quickly because I think that's a really good point. And I think I should just say really quickly because I didn't earlier that the way Laenor's death plays out in the book

the most believable version is that Damon pays Carl to kill Laenor. Joe, can you please tell Chris how Carl is spelled? I just want you to blow his mind here. I want Chris to guess. Tell him. C-A-R-L. That's what I'm going with. It's Q. It's Q-A-R-L. Okay. Okay.

Okay. I just saw like some light drain out of Chris's eyes. Um, it's C-A-R-L. That's like, if I was making a name tag for that guy, I'd be like, here you go. You're Carl. That's his new name on, on like now that he's started a new life for himself. He's no longer Carl with a Q. He's Carl with a C now. But, um, the demon pays Carl to kill Laenor. And then the demon kills Carl to cover his tracks. And that's how that all plays out. Um,

And so, yeah, this is a major departure and a major, I guess, whitewashing of Damon's character, a character that we've had a lot of questions about, like, why we're seeing so many of his deeds offscreen. Like, why are they hiding so many of his bigger moments offscreen? And I don't know if it's to keep the audience rooting for him or if they're just really enjoying this mystique that Matt Smith is bringing to the role. But I really felt that connection.

based on like set photos and stuff like that again not this is not in a spoiler way but just the first set photos we ever saw were that scene was that scene with Emma Darcy and Matt Smith on the beach shooting that scene and so I actually think based on interviews I've read that this was their first week of filming was this interesting um

The exteriors, at least, for this. And so I thought it was really powerful. The Matt Smith-Emma Darcy connection is extremely potent. It was amazing. When Rhaenyra leans in and says, I want you, it's one of the most electric crackles of chemistry that we've gotten on the show so far. And I thought, too, the contrast of... On the one hand, it's like, Damon, you're at your wife's funeral and you're both at your in-laws' house.

Let's pump the brakes for a second. Anyone could see you're just standing out on the beach. But I thought the contrast to the brothel bowels of the brothel auto finally getting the payoff on the coupling thing, the contrast to how public and showy that was versus how really like intimate and tender that

this scene was. Well, yeah. I mean, even look at their wedding itself was like almost primordial. Like the painting of the faces, this very small ceremony. Valerian rites, the blood binding. Yeah. And compare that to the way her wedding was being...

celebrated to, to Lenore and, and how gaudy and like drunken and, and just sort of off the fat of the land. That was, this seems like much more elemental and powerful. Uh, I always find it difficult to ask you to about what might happen, you know, uh, but I do kind of want to tease this out a little bit. Am I right to think that based on the limited guest list for Rhaenyra and Damon's wedding, that this will not be well received, uh,

I mean, Viserys has certainly never wanted this. Yes. Ever. He's fought against this from the jump. A couple memorable conversations about why Viserys didn't want this to happen. So, I think the private nature of the ceremony, but also the specific Valyrian-laden nature of the ceremony is important, clearly. You know, I think, like...

There's very little about these Valyrian rituals in the text, but there is one line from Fire and Blood. The wedding was, this is about other characters earlier in the timeline. The wedding was performed on Dragonstone under the aegis of the dowager queen Visenya. As the castle septon refused to officiate, Maegor and his new bride were joined in a Valyrian rite, quote, wed by blood and fire, end quote.

Again, this blood and fire, you know, we hear Rhaenyra speak to Daemon about this idea that the Valyrians are of the sea, but you and I are made of fire. We have always been meant to burn together. And I think there are a lot of things at the heart of their marriage here. And this union, this coupling at last, there's the shared tragedy. They both talk about how they're in mourning, right? Yeah.

There's sincere love and passion and an attraction and draw to each other that's been there since the beginning. But what else has been there since the beginning? That understanding of an interest in that Targaryen purity. They always speak Valyrian to each other. He gave her the Valyrian steel necklace in the first episode and said, now you and I both own a small piece of our ancestry. They both ride dragons. Like they both have cited Aegon the Conqueror many times, including here.

When they're talking about political strength and cementing Rhaenyra saying it'll be harder for people to challenge my claim if we're wed, like she's not just thinking about the political reality of the day in the realm right now and how other people might respond to it. Though, of course, that's part of it. Again, she mentions the greens here. They are both thinking about what it means to be the House of the Dragon in a way that not as many other characters around them are. And so I think that can be something we look at, too, when we track who is aligned. Yeah.

And certainly Viserys has always shied away from the dragon rider elemental aspect of being a Targaryen. But last week we saw Daemon hold up in a library in Pentos just reading old dragon texts. And I feel like he read about this marriage right in a book in Pentos and was like,

babe, you know what would be really cool? Yeah, yeah. If we cut our lips open with dragonglass. Damon has big Civil War reenactor vibes. Yeah, exactly. I had one more question about whether or not I was reading too... Can I say reading too much into it? Because then you're like, well... I found that the scene of their return from Driftmark between Viserys and Alicent to be noteworthy because he is... I mean...

Vegas is no longer taking bets on Viserys. He continues to just defy expectations. He is essentially going to be a rolling torso at some point. But he's obviously travel just completely incapacitates him. And, you know, Otto had said go to him.

I thought it was interesting that she was like kind of like pumping him full of wine and almost trying to keep him in cotton. You know, like let's just kind of like keep you drunk, happy, immobilized, whatever. Are we starting like Viserys obviously held literally no sway over a single person in that room when he was demanding everybody do what he says and everybody was just doing whatever they wanted. Um,

Are we seeing Alicent sort of start to manipulate or incapacitate Viserys a little bit?

I think she has been, right? She's like running, making decisions in the small council. There was that really interesting moment in the confrontation with everyone in the room when Viserys demands Aemon tell him who told, who was talking about Rhaenyra's children like they were bastards and he looks at his mom and it's so clear that it was Arlson. It was awesome. And then Aegon's like, Aegon's like, me? Aegon's like,

Agon's incredible. He's like, I talk a lot of shit, but I don't know if I said that. Also, speaking of Tywin energy, Otto like kicking Agon awake and dragging him to bed. It was classic Tywin Joffrey stuff. I loved it. But I'm going to miss Ty Tenen a lot when he goes. But I think it's just more, just more and more of what we've seen already from Allison in terms of her maneuvering. And we saw it.

weeks ago when Emily Carey was playing Alison, was Alison coming to see Viserys and just asking him questions and gently steering him. And this is just the...

AP advanced course in that which involves pouring wine. Tell me more about model making. Exactly. Love some stone masonry. I think everyone is plotting and scheming. I love that you have hobbies. That's so fun. That's so cool. I got you your very own dragon figurine. I had it made for you. That was a nice gift. I think though, Chris, everyone is plotting and scheming. As much as we're weirdly shipping the

the hunk of niece marriage and saying, oh boy, watching these related people fuck was one of our favorite scenes of the season so far. What a television program. They're also enacting a plot. And one of the things that's interesting about the Alison Visserent dynamic is what happens then when he's removed.

There's another fascinating conversation between Alicent and Laris when Viserys is not there. And what did you both make of the moment between Kristen and Alicent earlier in the episode when he's like, why is this guy Laris here and looking at you all the time? I also, here's another follow-up question for you.

Kristen Cole had night watch duty. Where was Kristen Cole when all those children attacked each other? I think it was. Didn't Viserys say that? Wasn't he just like, what the fuck do I pay you guys for? The Kingsguard has never had to defend princes from princes. I have some notes on Kristen. He needs to study Targaryen history a little bit more closely. Also, he thinks the boys are all cousins and that's not the correct relationship. So he's slipping on his homework a little bit.

I don't know. This is not a book thing. I don't know if Alicent and Kristen are knockin' boots or not. I don't know. I thought that the scene between Alicent and Laris was supposed to be basically, this is Alicent come full circle. In the end of the last episode, she's scandalized by Laris' admission that he has done her bidding. And she's like, I didn't tell you to do that. And this time she comes to the end and she's just like,

I don't need you now. When I do need you, like, you'll know and know that you'll, like, have, like, a place, like, in my kind of, like, galaxy here. Absolutely. But what does it mean if the two people who are her closest confidants aren't working together? Like, Kristen calls him Lionel Strong's son. Doesn't even call him by his name. And we're led to believe from the last episode that...

and Allison are like dining together by candlelight whispering secrets to each other basically nightly. Kristen is the closest person to Allison in her sworn shield and doesn't maybe understand the depth of that relationship. That's significant to me that two of the people who are closest to her are not really aware of the other person's role in her life. Team Green looking sloppy. All Kristen has to do is talk to Talia the housemaiden and just be like Oh my god. Talia has to be like

Talia has eyes and ears everywhere. Talia knows it all. When does she become like, basically like, when does she become Varys? She's like in every room. She's like, Talia, you beat it. Like, like I'm getting so naturally positioned in the cluster of Alicent, Aemond, Aegon, Helena. Unbelievable.

If Tony Gilroy was writing this show, we would get like a Talia episode next. Like we would definitely get like the like side side thing. I think we can wrap it up there. We've, we've really covered a lot. Thanks to Steve Allman for producing us. Mallory and Joe will be back on Tuesday on ringer verse with the house of our deep dive into this episode of house of the dragon. Andy and I will be chatting about it, but we're also covering some other stuff this week on the watch.

But in the meantime, keep it dialed. Ring reverse. There's lots of stuff happening. And thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.

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