'House of the Dragon' Episode 5 Reactions | Talk the Thrones
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Hello, and welcome to Talk the Thrones. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at TheRinger.com, and joining me this week, as always, is Ringer senior staff writer Joanna Robinson, along with a woman who can't possibly be as bad of a wedding guest as Damon Targaryen. It's Mallory Rubin. What's up, everybody? Mallory, I think that's a challenge. That's a dare. No, I've actually been to weddings with Mal, and she's absolutely delightful.

I'm pretty mellow at a wedding, you know? You're just a basket of sunshine, no matter where you are. I sit there and I say to everyone, after tonight's small affair, seven days of tournaments and feasting, you know? It's a promise of what's to come, always. What about Chris at a wedding? What's that like, Mallory? Chris is a great time. Yeah. I'd recommend everybody attend a wedding with Chris, and I'd recommend everybody watch Chris perform karaoke. Okay.

We are not here to talk about my karaoke. We are here to talk about the fifth episode of House of the Dragon titled We Light the Way or better yet, Royal Weddings Gone Wrong. First off, for the two of you, thoughts and emotions after this episode that saw the union of Laenor Valerian and Princess Rhaenyra Targaryen. Maljo, what was the most important thing that happened in this episode?

Alison's fashion choice, I think. What do you think, Mallory? I agree. Alison showing up in the house high tower has called the banners to war bright green, stealing the thunder from her quote stepdaughter, Rhaenyra, her ailing husband, the king, whose crown will shortly tumble off his head.

And House Valerian in full and marching down the hall for all to see in that bright green dress. What's that called? Is that called your color story? What is that? Is that like the thing? Isn't there a thing like on Instagram where people are like, this is my color story or something? Is that what was basically Allison was kicking? I love to hear that you're an Instagram girl, Chris. And that you are.

I genuinely don't know the answer to this. I'm probably remembering it wrong, but I guess that was obviously this huge thing. She's wearing the color of the banners when the Hightowers go to war, right? And she shows up 30 minutes late, interrupts Viserys' big speech, walks in, all eyes on her,

Do all major families in Westeros have a I'm going to war dress? Or is it just the eye towers? So my impression of what happened there is that the lovely creators of the show decided that

Harwin and Lara Strong, the strong boys, were going to play the role of Mallory and Joanna and give some extra contextual commentary on her entrance here. And so, I mean, what's really true is that green is just House Hightower's color. Like, that's just their color. The calling the banners to war part is sort of a Laris embellishment to what's going on there. But still, she's making a statement. The late arrival is definitely part of it. And then, like, earlier in the episode,

when Viserys is getting his crumbling body attended to and he says, where's the queen? And Lionel says, you know, it's my understanding she's otherwise occupied. Like, that's unheard of. Before, Alyson would come any time the king beckons. So she's, you know, she's making moves, making choices, saying no, saying yes on her timetable now. Always ready with a loofah when he's taking a bath. That's a nice sponge bath. She had seen him collapse from her perch on the battlements and still chose...

to go meet with Kristen instead. This episode is called We Light the Way. Those are the house words of House Hightower. So you couple that episode name with the fashion statement, the conversation between Allison and Hobart, House Hightower rising and greeting as she walked past the first rise, all of these little things. This is a big House Hightower declaration of intent episode. And obviously there's a fascinating exchange between Otto and his daughter as he's hitting the road in the downpour, just an open horseback, couldn't even get a carriage, tough stuff for

a guy on a high tower there. How's high tower kids send like a, like an SUV or something? Yeah. He got locked out of his email immediately and didn't even get like, we're going to send you your shit in a box. Yeah. Seriously. Tony from HR is going to walk you to the door. Yeah.

He's got a pamphlet for you. Um, a lot of other things happen in this episode. Shall I recap them? Let's do it. Okay. Uh, this episode starts with, uh, Dame murdering a woman, uh, shout out to Damon Targaryen. He, uh, every time you think you get to the basement with this dude, he, he finds another sub level. Uh, Damon Targaryen startles his, uh, his wife's horse and then bludgeons her to death with a rock. Two questions. Who was this woman? Uh,

And is her death off screen going to go right into the Stannis Baratheon is still alive Hall of Fame of Game of Thrones takes because we just didn't see the actual deed being done. We can put a pin in both of those things because I want to talk about Damon in a bit.

Later on, on his way out the door, Otto explains to his daughter, Alison, that everything he has done has been to prevent an inevitable war that would follow Rhaenyra taking the throne and to stop Rhaenyra from killing Alison's son to solidify her claim. Alison's confidence in the kingdom is further shaken by an encounter with Larys Strong, who somehow knows basically everything about Rhaenyra, especially her late-night tea consumption. Viserys, desperately in need of Dramamine, takes Rhaenyra to the wedding...

Where does he take that? Is that Dragonstone he takes him to? Driftmark. Driftmark. High tide. The seat of Corlys and House Velaryon. Takes Rhaenyra to Driftmark so they can make this wedding happen with Corlys' son. And after some quibbles over naming rights, they agree to make it happen. Meanwhile, Corlys' son and Rhaenyra make an agreement to basically have an open marriage.

It turns out that this great compromise of a union doesn't really work for anyone. Not for Laenor, who is in love with another man. Not for Rhaenyra, who is at least in lust with another man. Not for Rhaenys, who worries that her son will get killed and that he'll have a target on his back. And not really for Viserys, who is pretty clearly dying and is about to go back to a wife as P. Matt at about

at him about this whole thing. Allison tries to get confirmation from Kristen about this Rhaenyra affair rumor with Daemon and instead finds out that it was Kristen who did the deed. Just all time unforced error own goal here. For sure. Astonishing stuff.

A couple of OGs by my man, Kristen, this week. He seems to think that he's dead set for some castration, but Allison is too deep in her feelings to have him gilded. So she also might be merciful, as we'll see later in the episode. Added on to that,

At the dinner for the royal wedding, everything is going super well until the one-two punch of wife-murdering Damon and Allison, the latter of whom is apparently declaring war with her dress choice. There is a long, loaded dance sequence. The C-word finds a popularity among TV characters not seen since Deadwood. Damon remains the best thing about this show, and everyone seems to know who everyone else is sleeping with.

Everything comes to a head when Joffrey Lawnmouth, shout out to that guy, just a great Dion Waiters performance from him, tries to gossip with Ser Criston about being secret lovers to the royal couple. It all pops off. Ser Criston caves the dude's head in, right? A much more attractive version of a hound type dude that needs to rescue Rhaenyra from this melee. All while Viserys seems to be bleeding from every orifice that

Rhaenyra gets hitched, her dad collapses, and the rat from The Departed shows up again. The end. There are other things that have happened that we'll get into. To drink blood! The rat from The Departed showed up to drink blood. What's up with that? Vampire rats? A subtle closing shot for this episode. Chris is also fueled by blood when he's writing and reading these recaps. Oh my goodness, what a performance.

Great stuff. I would say that my favorite thing that happened in this episode by far was Damon's response to the guy being like, that was my cousin. He's like, literally, who are you? Literally, who are you? And also, by the way, I'm your landlord now. Yeah.

But let's start with Rhaenyra. Now, we hear a lot about how the knives are going to be out for Rhaenyra if she becomes queen. But who exactly would oppose her? Because by the end of this episode, it certainly seems like it's Alyson in some ways. But I'm curious because all these houses have sort of sworn fealty to her, albeit maybe begrudgingly after Viserys named her the heir. Yeah.

But when Otto is giving Alicent this warning and reassuring

And Rhaenys is like, oh God, the knives will be out. Who are they talking about? To quote some of our favorite characters in Thrones history, including our guy Varys, the realm. Yeah. Someone must. That realm, man. This is actually one of the things that I liked most about the episode. The conversations between Otto and Alicent and Rhaenys and Corlys have such strong and overt parallels and harbingers of this story

doom that awaits in the future, even though these characters are not aligned with each other and thus are not looking at this from the same ambition, the same agenda, the same ultimate goal and endpoint, and yet they see the same eventuality. So you can look at what Otto says, this listen to me, daughter, plea. You can hear when Renée says to Corliss, we are placing our son in danger. And you can think back across the episodes to

Consider the sequence between Rhaenys and Rhaenyra in episode two, where we hear this idea of the order of things. And Rhaenyra really pushing back against that, balking at that. They rejected you, but they bent the knee to me. And Rhaenyra saying to her, here is the hard truth, which no one else has the heart to tell you. Men would sooner put the realm to the torch than see a woman ascend the Iron Throne. So this is just the reality. And the fact that

All of the characters see this looming. I think, Chris, like, it's not just who would challenge Rhaenyra. It's the fact that everyone will challenge each other. Because Otto, what he's saying to Alyson is, think about your own children. If Rhaenyra is trying to secure her claim and her crown...

She will have no choice, and the people who support her will have no choice but to eliminate them from the equation so that these other people who Renise and co. are talking about can't support them and challenge of her. So this is this inevitable doom that everyone sees. And if you couple that with the conversation between Viserys and Lionel, where Viserys is like, was I a good king? Am I a good king?

what's my legacy? What am I leaving behind? And you think about like a great conversation between Tywin and Arya on Harrenhal in season two of Thrones, this idea that your legacy is what you pass on to your children and your children's children. It's what remains of you when you're gone. Well,

then it doesn't matter what the current state of affairs is for Viserys and what he achieved. It matters what position he's leaving his children and his heirs in. And everybody around him is saying this feels like it's going to reach a boiling point no matter what.

And something we've talked about in House of R is the fact that George R.R. Martin based this story on a real 12th century civil war in England where the male monarch got all the lords in the land to swear fealty to his female, his daughter's female successor. Made them swear it, I think, four different times, maybe, just to be sure. And then there still was a massive civil war anyway, because they're like...

And we know we swore, but did we mean it? And, you know, and we saw a couple people in that original swearing a fealty to Rhaenyra. We saw a couple people, noticeably Hobart Hightower, noticeably the Baratheon Lord, like,

look really reluctant. Yeah, for sure. When they were taking the oath, you know? I want to keep on this topic of sort of this brewing civil war, this brewing civil unrest among these royal families. But can we just talk about Daemon for a second? Absolutely. Please. Please.

Matt's really like, we'll just show up for three scenes of these episodes and each scene is just like the standout. So I guess my first question about Damon is, did he go back home with the express purpose of killing his wife? It certainly seemed like he did. What I love about this, and Mallory can agree or disagree with me, but...

I love how ambiguous they're making all these big moments for Damon. That's like the biggest thing is like, they will cut away in a significant moment. We don't actually see him drop the rock on her head. We see it like cut away to someone's, you know, fish getting its head chopped off in the book.

Damon technically has an alibi for this moment, right? In the book, it says, a year later in 115 AC, there came a tragic mishap of the sort that shapes the destiny of the kingdoms. The bronze bitch of Runestone, Lady Rhea Royce, fell from her horse whilst talking and cracked her skull upon a stone. And Damon is off fighting in the stepstones at the time. And so, but...

But me reading the book and feeling the way that I do about Daemon, which is that I love him, but also he will do as much evil as he possibly can. I definitely read that as he definitely killed her. If he wasn't there, it's too convenient for him that she's dead. So if he wasn't there himself, he didn't zip over on his dragon like he sent someone to do it. Someone put a burn or saddle, something like that. So the fact that they placed him there is even more than what the book...

does, but they still cut away. He doesn't say anything in that scene. Once again, we get all these silent scenes with Damon. He barely says anything at the wedding either. You know, there's like a long stretch where he's just sitting, sitting and looking. A big question I think for people was how is it that Damon's going to be invited to the wedding after he was just banished the week before? And the answer is Viserys is just too weak to do anything about it.

He's also got a dragon, which I guess is the ultimate guest list pass. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So I think that's, I mean, Matt Smith's performance, the mystique that they're building up for this guy where he's, he's not talking. So we get to fill in what we think he's thinking and what his motivations are and what's really going on with him. I think that's a big part of his draw. What do you think, Mallory? Well, Mel, I was going to ask you my favorite part about this show maybe is how in almost every one of their scenes together,

Rhaenyra is basically like saying to Daemon, like, fucking do it. Like, you think you're so bad. Like, you know, on the bridge, she's just like, if you want to be king, you just have to kill me. Yeah. And then she basically wants to sleep with him when they're at the brothel and he leaves her. And then now at this, in the dance floor, she's just like, go up,

and kill this old man who is literally falling to pieces. Kill everyone. And take me away and let's go and let's see if you have it. And, you know, it's like his ex-wife or, you know, late wife says, it's like, I mean, it's a divorce in some parts of life. It's like his late wife says, I knew you couldn't finish.

Right. Not the subtlest scene in the history of our Westerosi programming. When Lyderia is shouting, calling him a craven and mocking him for not being able to finish. I did think that was particularly interesting, though, to Joe's point about this room for interpretation. Damon not speaking, because I think there's a read on that initial scene where it's like, this is...

We've talked a lot about how part of the appeal of the show and the appeal of this character set is the moral gray and how Damon is like most emblematic of the characters who live in the moral gray and why they're interesting to us for that reason. I really, I agree, Joe, that there's a lot of room for interpretation in that scene specifically because Damon is not speaking. And so we don't know exactly what his initial intention was when he set out exactly what's playing through his mind. But it is very clear that he feels, and this has become a through line,

by, in this case, Rhea, and in other cases, other characters,

mocking his impotence to his face. And so like for us to learn here from her that their marriage was not consummated was a pretty big deal. And there's this through line of F&B of fire and blood that, you know, people, it's a barren marriage because they haven't produced an heir. But once again, it seems that we have learned that Damon is not performing in the bedroom. And, um,

The fact that things that he has said before, like about the sheep and the veil, et cetera, have made their way back to her. Everything spreads all the time. We're always reminded of the way that this whispered travel across the land. It absolutely is. I've loved the Gossip Girl memes that have been making their way across Twitter.

We also have all these moments like the the map of all the secret passageways in the Red Keep that Damon left for Runear last episode or the fact that he took the dragon egg from the dragon pit. Like he's able to get in and out of places without detection. That's something we know about his character. So I agree with Joe that I've always assumed that he showed up or said someone and was responsible for the death. I think there's a read of that scene where like it's it's so lacking in subtlety that like the Damon standing there with the

basically in his Hogwarts robes yet again, and like just leering. I'm like, is this skewing a touch too far into trying to make a character who's supposed to be embodying that moral grade, just like a villain. But I do think it's an achievement that we then still feel pulled in to his web of charm. And when he and Rhaenyra are on the dance floor in plain view of everyone, once again, conversing in Valerian. Now, a lot of people in that room in particular with,

and the Valerians would be able to understand them, but they continue to cocoon themselves in this little bubble. And Rhaenyra is one of the only characters who can challenge him without inciting some sort of rage in him. It's a really fascinating dynamic. But he still has his reactions to her. Like, you know, listening to the behind the scenes about the brothel scene, one thing that the director, Claire,

Claire Kilner said was that her being into it was part of what made him pull back. It's just sort of like he likes to be the one with the upper hand at all times and Rhaenyra meeting him is attractive but also not, you know, also pushes in the wrong way. And I think also what's really interesting is that we never meet Rhea Royce in the book and they made the decision to make her kind of

kind of cool. She's kind of like an Arya type, you know? And so it, again, to Mal's point, it underlines everything that he, every shitty thing that he said about her. Yeah. He makes her sound like, Oh my God. Like she'll, she's like Medusa. You can't even deal. And she's like, she seems like a pretty cool, cool lady. Yeah. She's cool and hot. Maybe like a little snarky with her cousin, but like not anything that Damon described her as. So I thought that was really a really cool choice of the show as well.

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You mentioned the dancing scene with her, with Rhaenyra and Daemon. So I thought I would ask about this dance because it gets real crowded out there on the floor, like 1.45 a.m. New York City vibes. And then...

something pops off. Because all we see is Kristen and Joffrey kind of... Joffrey kind of, you know, like, letting Kristen know, I know you were with Rhaenyra. I'm with Laenor. We have this obligation to one another, not only to protect them, but kind of also letting him know, like, keep our secrets. But we don't see the moment where Kristen just loses it. You know, and then all of a sudden there's this scuffle between

And Kristen is going full Joe Pesci, Goodfellas on this guy. What was...

What was that about? You know, was he... What do you think Kristen was really reacting to there? Was it that his spot was blown up? That he was now, like, so far away from being part of the Kingsguard and the sort of heroic oath that he had taken, and now he was being compromised left and right? Like, what do you think was the inciting incident, or does he just have a really bad temper? Something that Fabian Frankel, who plays Kristen Cole, has said in an interview was that this idea that...

Kristen is a thug and he just was sort of like covering his thuggishness this whole time. And then it's sort of in him. And what's really interesting in that scene where Joffrey comes over and places hands incorrectly to Kristen Cole, there's this really interesting shot as he's walking away just to Kristen's hands that are sort of just like flexing.

So I feel like, I mean, there's a lot of buildup. There's a scene with Rhaenyra and Kristen on the boat where he's like, you want me to be your whore? Like, that's what you want? And her...

I have a lot of feelings about that scene and what's going on in her head and her obligation and duty. But, you know, if this is the equivalent of her, like, of Arya throwing rocks at her direwolf to get it to run away, her saying, like, you think I would go with you, that is a huge, you know, wound and indignity to him. This thing that we've been talking about, about his, like, upward mobility, how he's, like, the first member of the Cole family to go to college, essentially, like, that this is, like, really, really important to him. And it's

all been put on the line and he lays out the stakes to Alicent in that conversation in case folks at home don't know. Like, it's not just you're going to get fired. It's you're going to get gelded and sent to the wall or killed. Like, that's what's on the line for him. And I think

Also, he doesn't know where Allison got that information. He doesn't know that she got it from Laris. And he doesn't know that Joffrey, the world's greatest detective, figured it out just from a few glances on the dance floor. Stolen glances, I know. Yeah, exactly. So he doesn't know if Rhaenyra is out there just sort of gossiping about him and spreading... So I feel like all of that roiled up inside of him.

And also some of his own true nature that he had been sort of glossing over erupted out of him. Yeah, I guess that actor is probably too hot to be like, oh, what a thug. What a thug just holding it back. He definitely looks like a pretty handsome dude. So you're not thinking like, oh, underneath the surface there, though. He's just like...

unreconstructed thuggery. Incredibly handsome. I think we all agree on that. That's a pretty uncomplicated opinion that is probably held by everyone viewing the show. And would that, would that, like, would his behavior at that wedding be a deal breaker for you?

Me personally? Sharing a relationship with Kristen Cole with the fact that he removed a person's face at a public gathering? A deal breaker? A hate crime? Yeah, I would say so. Mal, I just can't believe how fussy you're getting in your old age. You know that? I remember

I remember your standards. I remember Game of Thrones Mallory Rubin would just be like, it only makes them hotter. You know, like. Oh, God. In Fire and Blood, Chris. Yeah. Kristen kills Joffrey. That happens. But very notably, he wounds him during a tournament. Is that under the same circumstances where Joffrey's like, by the way, I know that we are both secret lovers? That's what I was just going to say. We don't have

No, we don't have any insight in Fire and Blood into that sort of exchange. Now, that doesn't mean it didn't happen because part of what we're gaining insight into the show is these firsthand direct accounts of what's passing between characters. Fire and Blood is constructed, as we've mentioned before, through these unreliable narrator accounts, what people witnessed or heard or read in somebody's account. So maybe that happened and it never made its way back to people. But...

There's no cover of a tournament here regardless. Like, Kristen Cole pursues Joffrey in the middle of the welcome feast at the wedding ceremony, the beginning of this week, and murders him and is wailing and screeching and annihilating and turning his face into a total ruin.

and I don't know how he or Alicent or anyone will be able to explain that away, because if you hit your Morningstar into somebody's helm and crack their skull and it takes them six days to die, which is what happens in Fire and Blood, you say, hey, if you choose to enter the tournament, you understand what the risk is, even if there was something else motivating his rage in that moment, right? So I'll be really fascinated to see... If you want to catch passes over the middle...

You know, that's what's going to happen. We're recording on an NFL Sunday. You know, I'll be fascinated to see if there's any explanation offered up. If Kristen tries to say, oh, I saw him attack or he was a threat to somebody. But even then, there's no justification for the extent of what he did. None at all. I got the impression that when he was on the verge of opening up his own stomach, that he wasn't going to try and be like it was provoked. But he stopped. And so he will move forward. Yeah.

He didn't kill himself there. And so what will be the explanation offered up? Will there be one? I'll be really curious to see. I think what Joe said about the conversation between Rhaenyra and Kristen on the boat is like these scenes are inextricable from each other. Because when he says, I took an oath as a knight of the Kingsguard, an oath of chastity, I've broken it, I've soiled my white cloak, and he's in tears. There's no coming back already for him in his mind. And he has this...

He makes this pitch to Raniro about a marriage for love, about escaping and being free. And I'm not saying that he doesn't feel that or doesn't believe that, but I think it is also equally true and a primary motivator for him as he says, I thought if we were married, I might be able to restore it, meaning his honor. Like this is the only path he sees left for regaining that standing and that stature that completely changed his life and his house's standing. So without that,

What is he driven to? He tells Allison, please kill me. Yeah. Right? So he doesn't see a way forward. And I fully believe that he would have killed himself in the godswood if Allison hadn't showed up. And I think I do, to your point,

Mallory, I think this is a slight flaw of the show because this was a big question we had last week. It was like, how is Damon going to show up to the wedding when he's just been exiled? And the answer was, he just did. And a question I have going forward is, we know from interviews that the showrunners have given that the big time jump is now.

The next episode. Next episode. So we're getting a massive time jump. So I don't, I mean, I don't know that they're going to be like, I feel like they're going to yada yada over how it was that Kristen Cole was able to murder someone with his bare hands in public. Someone important to the

king consort, the future king consort and stay in the game. You know, I'm sure that there is an answer to this in the text and I don't want to spoil anything for our listeners nor myself, but it certainly seems like if I could pull one idea out of this whole episode, it's like that Allison is sort of becoming queen and all the ways that you kind of need to be if you're going to be in power in this world and like,

I think she starts to see the chessboard. I think she starts to move pieces around for herself. And what does she do? She goes and takes Rhaenyra's lover and closest bodyguard and shows him mercy, like sees him as a full person and is like, stop. Now we don't know what happens after that. But I kind of wanted to maybe pivot into the Alicent conversation here because she's obviously a huge part of this episode. I was curious, and Joe, maybe you can tell me a little bit about this. Like it seemed like

Allison, was she more hurt that Rhaenyra lied

Or was she more that... Was it more that she now understood the level of duplicity that was sort of happening around her? Like, is she still hanging on to this idea that the two of them are friends? Or is it more that like, oh, what my dad said is true. All this shit is happening in secret passageways. Not only did she probably like still go out with Damon, but then she came home and hooked up with her Kingsguard, like her bodyguard. And everything...

Everything that I think in my sort of innocent nail-biting eyes is like a lie. And this place is full of vipers.

I think that's part of it. And it's part of, I mean, I think Otto really set the table for her there when he left. When he married her off to an old man. No, but like when he left, he said, you know, he basically laid it out to her that this was her fault. And that in choosing Rhaenyra over him is the way he puts it.

She is directly responsible for him leaving and therefore directly responsible for placing herself at the palace all alone. She already mentioned last week that, like, she feels like she has no friends. People just see her as the queen more than anything else. As bad as her father was to her, he was an ally that she could rely upon, and he's gone. And then...

here comes my favorite Laris Strong up to her whispering in her ear. Can't wait to talk about this guy. Okay. I mean, I cannot wait. But like, he's underlining that aloneness to her and underlining this idea that like a game, both Otto and Laris, basically there's a game going on and you're not even playing it at all.

all and it's going on around you and even Rhaenyra who we've seen for years Alicent has been defending Rhaenyra both to Rhaenyra's face and while Rhaenyra is not there and for Rhaenyra to lie to her to swear as we talked last week

mother's memory and lie to her. So there's like hurt and betrayal is in there. But I think also just this idea of like, okay, grow up, Allison. Now's the time to like get, get smart. What do you think, Mel? Yeah, I agree. I think all of these different threads fall into this,

tapestry of loss of innocence, right? And moving into this, but we, we heard the showrunners talk, I believe it was the end of episode three about how that was like the child childhood's end episode for multiple characters, Alison or near a DM. And I think really this is the end of, of that for Alison because, or it's where she accepts and acknowledges and recognizes that truth and then moves forward and really grasps that agency. I think that we,

We talked a lot last week, and so I won't rehash it here, but I think that Allison's views on what she sincerely would think of Rhaenyra coupling with Daemon at a brothel or Rhaenyra sleeping with Kristen, I think she genuinely would not approve of that. I think that the thing that ultimately is the nail in the coffin here of their friendship is the lie, because that cements for Allison...

Not only that she was being used, but that other people think they can use her, that they know they can lie to her and deceive her and make her a pawn in their game. And that if she doesn't want that to be true, she has to change that for herself. And so even in exchange, like I thought the conversation that she had with her with with Hobart Hightower was so fascinating because he she she she thanks him for coming.

And the first thing that he says is, I was worried that given leave of your father's shadow, you might wither in King's Landing's sun. And I was like, what's up with this guy? This is a pretty weird thing and a very insulting thing to say to somebody. But that's, again, another acknowledgement of this very clear and visible reality that pretty much everyone sees about Alison's circumstance. And so then the fact that the next thing he says to her is, but you stood tall.

know that old town stands with you. Like that's an important thing that she has made a decision to say, um,

Okay, and we talked so much about the dress choices earlier in the season, and I know we talked about it already in this episode, but I think we have to say one more thing, which is tracking the progression. Because now I look back on all of our jokes about why was she in this one dress, and it's like she starts in this pale blue, right? This very innocent childlike color. And she moves into wearing her mother's old gown on her father's orders. And then she spends multiple episodes in the colors of somebody else's house.

House Targaryen red, House Targaryen black, the drapery of this marriage that she was ultimately guided into by somebody else's hand. And so moving into House Hightower's color of her own volition, when she is choosing not to go check on the king, not to go spend time with him, interrupting his speech, drawing all eyes to her, I don't think we can overstate the significance of what that represents.

No, and Mal, I think that that's a crucial way of like watching the show is that like, I think for me, honestly, it's been a little bit of getting my head around like what, what this show is doing rather than what it's not doing in relationship to Thrones. And this is way more of like a comedy and tragedy of manners in the, in, in royalty rather than,

here are these people, these sort of, these castaways in the world who will eventually rise and like lead it to its salvation. You know, it's like much more about

These very, very, very highborn people who are following all these social graces and breaking them at times and sometimes quite violently. But I think it's easier now that I've seen these five episodes to get my head around what at least this version of the show is doing. It could change as new actors come in and everything. But it's kind of an interesting lens to watch the show through.

Yeah, and I think this is like the opposite of the point we were making earlier about how the time jumps are really kind of wonky and like the moments that we're missing in between actually are like to the show's detriment quite often. I think, Chris, the point you're making is the inverse of that, which is the show has been really expert at using...

set design and character positionings and those sorts of choices to tell us something significant. Like we talked last week about how Viserys was using Blackfyre, the ancestral sword of Aegon the Conqueror, as a walking stick. What about when Viserys walks in and Corlys is sitting in the chair? This is what I was just going to say. Corlys not greeting Viserys in the yard, making Viserys call

ailing, pallid, feeble, visibly infirmed, walk to him into his hall in High Tide where Corlys is sitting on the Driftwood throne. And then that throne comes into play again because they position Rhaenys

the queen who never was in front of it. Now, when they're talking, when Corlys is asking for the details, just some details on the succession and will these children carry their father's name, the queen who never was, she's not standing in front of the Iron Throne, but still, it's the symbol of power and a seat of might. And all of those things, I think the show has done quite well. It's just those moments that we're missing in between that I think we're going to have a couple more episodes of needing to navigate before we

Slow down. I love that moment when Rhaenys is standing by the Driftwood throne and Viserys says, like, surely you wouldn't end the Targaryen line simply because my daughter is a woman and the look that Rhaenys gives is priceless. Because she's like, oh, now we care about women's rights in Westeros? Sure. And I think also, like, to your point about comedy of errors and comedy of manners, like, the contrast between Rhaenyra and Alicent is...

throughout the show and specifically at this wedding, Jason Lannister, that

Total douchebag. Comes up to the table and is talking. And Rhaenyra is so rude. She's rolling her eyes right in front of him. Meanwhile, Alicent walks over to her uncle, to the Hightower clan, and is making allies and friends. So Rhaenyra is just making enemies left and right. And Alicent is and has been all along. We saw it at the hunt with the ladies that are around her at the hunt, making friends. Rhaenyra is making enemies. And that's just...

The game is already afoot here in these early days. Yeah, I mean, I thought that... That's a really great point, Jo. Because Rhaenyra's behavior throughout that wedding celebration, that dinner, is pretty childish. She's just like, it's my wedding to this guy. I'm not going to really make much of an effort to make it seem like this is this great, romantic, powerful pairing. And then the most erotic moment of the wedding is me with my uncle.

Like, you know, like, is me with this guy who is essentially, like, the whole realm knows is a murderer, and we're going to flirt on the dance floor and only be interrupted by my other boyfriend killing someone. So she's a hot mess, you know? And that is really, like...

It'll be fascinating to watch whether or not they, how they chart Alison and Rhaenyra, especially once different, different performers are playing those roles. I wanted to ask a little bit about Laris because I was like, Oh, this guy's interesting when he pops up at the, at the, what was it? The naming festival. And like, he's just like, I can't. Yeah. Yeah.

And then his character kind of comes to fruition in this episode. I thought that was a great scene of him just sort of slowly picking at the scab on Alyssa until finally he spun her out totally and making himself an ally to her while also accruing a lot of information for himself.

Is Laris trying to destabilize his father because his father obviously treats him like shit because he's not able to fulfill like a lot of sort of manly duties, I guess, in this world? Or is he just an ambitious political operator? I think this has everything to do with how Laris is working Alicent. And I'll say something that might surprise you both here. I didn't really like this scene.

I thought this was really like... It's my favorite scene. I'm not surprised. And I... Joe, we both, you know, really like Larris and I was excited to see him enter the show. And I think that it's a scene that I'll probably enjoy more on subsequent watches. I don't... I don't know that this is even a fair critique. It just felt like they were so overtly trying to capture Littlefinger energy in this scene. And like, I...

I think it would not be like truthful or in good faith to say that Littlefinger always acted with great nuance and subtlety. He did not. Like he literally would just face off with Cersei in the courtyard and say, yeah, when brothers and sisters fuck, that can be really awkward. So it's not like Littlefinger's scenes weren't laying it on thick too, but something about the way that Larys was so...

trying to work Alicent in a way that not only the audience, but Alicent herself could not fail to miss or ignore. Like I want, I'm delighted to have my schemer in the show. Yes. So the scene is ultimately successful in that respect, but I want my schemers to be operating with a more

so that it's harder to detect exactly what they're trying to do. Now, ultimately though, he achieves his end. He sets into course everything that he's trying to do. He plants these seeds of doubt in Allison's mind with his reveal about the tea that Rhaenyra is deceiving her. And,

And everything that follows with Allison's conversation with Kristen and beyond comes from this moment. So Laris is a character we need to take seriously. And they establish that well. And I like his, you know, opening conversation about the flora and fauna of King's Landing. It's a metaphor for how Allison herself should not be thriving, but somehow is. But for him to just

actually say out loud, like, you need an ally. I just, I thought it was like a degree off. Well, I think there's also an element of it. I thought it was a well-performed scene. I thought that the actor who plays Lyris is good. I just... He wasn't wearing just a touch too much. Well, I mean, but like, that's like, I think that, yes, I think he was definitely doing like the, like, I'm walking beside you, but also try to like stick my head around in front of you so that I can see your facial expressions. If I had any issues with it, it was more just like,

a little bit of like, so you have super ears, like you just know all this stuff, and you know all the details and all the nuances of what happened. That part I liked though, because he says, if you're not asked to speak, you've got to observe. You have to listen. So they just don't have, they don't have HIPAA in Westeros, huh? Like we're not like... Well, this is what we said last week, that that tea was like a test, right? That no matter what...

like was going to tell in some respect. If Rhaenyra drinks it, then word travels, et cetera. So the thing, yeah, the thing that I would say about Larys is that we already, I like that they already seeded into the episode with the hunt, that he has a way of insinuating himself and listening and observing everything.

in places where he doesn't even belong. You know, that he's just like, oh, for me, I can't participate in the hunt. Can I sit here with these ladies? And then it's just information gathering while he's doing that, right? And so there's many ways in which he could do that around the castle and just be like, oh, you know, my poor foot, I just need to sit here and listen to the servants gossip or something like that. And I...

I hear what you're saying, Mallory. I'm not entirely disagreeing. I think, again, I would argue that's a function of the compressed timeline where they're like, we're not given many scenes of Laris like working. He gets one scene to shoot his shot here. You know what I mean? If we had had more exposure to him, this would just feel like the natural culmination of his plotting as opposed to like our first real time with him.

And he's making his move, but instead it's like, oh, this guy just popped out of nowhere and knows everything and lands his three-pointer from the first attempt. Yeah. And similarly, I think that Harwin Strong, who's his brother, who gets at least a little bit more screen time in this episode, but like... Not enough, Joanna. They're not laying enough track. I

I think with him Is he the guy who breaks up the fight? Yeah And like Lionel So that's Lyris' brother Breakbones A.K.A. the strongest Like man in Westeros Is what he's supposed to be And his father Lionel Strong Gives him a little nod To be like Hey man Go take care of this And he's like Sure thing He lets that fight go For like a minute and a half though Before he's like Alright now you can go break it up So I was wondering about that Like was Lionel like Go get Rhaenyra Is what he says You know basically Yeah

I have always loved the contrast between Harwin Strong, Strong of Body, and Lara Strong. The archetype that George R. R. Martin loves, the Tyrion, the Richard III character who needs to compensate for the ways in which people underestimate him by being cunning and smart and smarter than anyone else in the room. And I also like, if we're going to talk about English monarchs...

Can we talk about the deterioration of the Saris? Is that what you want to talk about? That was what was coming up next. Yeah. I want to hear about it. Well, our guys in a tough spot here. Yeah. I mean, I am not a doctor, but I think we are ending the, we were nearing the end of the road with Patty here. Like, you know, just in terms of like, I don't know how many more pieces of him can fall off. I don't know how many more liquids can spill out of him. You know, he's barfing, he's bleeding, he's,

People are handshaking him and there's nothing there. It's just recoiling in pain when he grasps his hand. His wife has pretty much abandoned him. You know what I mean? Just feebly trying to cut some quail and saying fuck it and tearing it with his hands. Yes. I love that because it made me think of Jamie and Brienne and Ruth and the failing at dinner. Yes.

Meat cutting. Yeah. I was curious because, you know, he's obviously in, and we talked a little bit about this, he's in legacy building mode. He's just sort of thinking like, what was this all about?

And I was curious whether or not... Because we don't really see a lot of what's going on outside these castle walls. What's the world like right now? Is it a time of peace? Is it a time of prosperity? Or is it... We're all just kind of scared of these dragons and they keep us in line or what. But there's this big thing in Arthurian myth about the land and the king are one. That the land sort of thrives as the king does and as the king is...

you know, in the case of Arthur until he gets the grail, right? If I'm remembering it correctly, like the land is sick and that's the, you know, the plague is hitting. And I was wondering whether or not there was any like in the text examples of this was also a tough time for Westeros, you know, or if, if everything is going fine and everybody's just psyched for this Royal wedding. I think, um, Mallory might have a few, um,

a few other details, but I think the best information we have on the show is early on when they mentioned that like King's Landing is in a sham. Crime is up. Oh yeah. In King's Landing. And this is why Damon and the gold cloaks have to crack down and gild people in the street. George R. R. Martin loves the gilding. You know what I mean? So we're gilding people in the street. Wheelbarrows full of body parts.

But yeah, the tough on crime attitude is because Viserys, like he's just an absent king. I think what's true. And so what that means more than like is the countryside ailing, is everything going to shit in King's Landing, et cetera, is that the office of the king or the office of the monarch loses meaning if your monarch is literally not present for anything, which is sort of my idea of Viserys is that he's just holed up in his,

getting, you know, his wounds swabbed. Sidebar, what's the worst job? Like, wound swabber to the king or puke bucket holder on the ship to the king? Like, which is the worst job? But, like, that he's not, he's effectively not ruling. He's not going to war when he needs to go to war. And so it just undermines, in general...

the importance of the monarchy. That's my take. What do you think, Mallory? Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And we've had a lot of lines, as you noted throughout the episode so far, about the state of the kingdom, but also more broadly about the fact that Viserys's reign invites challenge, which I think is the greatest indictment that you could have, that anybody would deign to say you are weak. Like, even if they think it, the fact that they would express it. And so I...

The scene between Viserys and Lionel Strong, as Viserys' rotting arm is on full view, I thought was an exceptional scene, one of my favorite of the season to date. But I don't think we can overstate the significance of what Corlys chose to say to him. Not only what we already talked about, how he greets him...

But what Joe mentioned, like the, are you really suggesting this? Corlys says later to Rhaenys, did I go too far? But the thing is, he didn't. Because Viserys, he pushes back just enough to say, okay, they'll have...

the name Valerian. They'll carry their father's name. And then whoever takes the throne will of course be a Targaryen because my dynasty is not going to end. All the chat that we've heard for a couple episodes about dragons ruling for a hundred more years.

There's a version of a ruler in House Targaryen who beheads the person who would even consider suggesting something like that to them, not just agree to a pact, come to terms immediately thereafter. So Viserys is in a position where he needs to mend. He had to go to him. It's crazy. Yeah. And Renise says it, right? Like Viserys,

Viserys embarrassed himself by sailing here to ask this of us. While she's washing her hands after touching him. I gotta say, so happy to have Corlys and Rhaenys back. I've missed them. It was a delight to spend time in High Tide. What a seat.

wonderful to be on drift mark here's joe it's a crucial thing though hand washing yeah but the problem with that is is now i have to ask does anyone wash their hands in any other situation in game of thrones because it's just hand washing i remember don't forget roz's uh water basin as she's listening to paicel say that the thing about kings you know there's a great moment in westerosi washing if i

You know, I think Mallory has her criticism of the Larysian. Here's my biggest criticism of the episode. We get, and I don't know if you could tell, Chris, but we got a new dragon. I was just going to ask if Chris noticed the new dragon. We got, so like, what I think is key is Viserys is talking, and he's talking about his legacy, and then it cuts to...

two dragons in the sky. A dragon screech and two dragons in the sky. And we talk so much about how Viserys doesn't have a dragon and how that makes him such a weak Targaryen by comparison. It's Laenor on Seasmoke, which we already saw in the Battle of the Stepstones. And then Rhaenys herself on her dragon, Maelys, but I don't know.

I don't know that anyone at home could necessarily know that that's what they were looking at because there's no establishing shot of that at all. I thought it was Rhaenyra and Laenor having like a sort of newlywed ride out. I mean, like, Maury's smirking because the dragons are different colors, but honestly, who could blame you? But,

I don't blame you. Melys is red. That's why she's called the Red Queen. Scarlet scales. Melys, you have to admit that the show did a really bad job of this. This was one of my points as well because... Or one of my critiques as well because especially given that Corliss says it's one of the things that they're debriefing on, who would dare to... Because Renise is concerned about what this marriage pact will mean for Laenor and putting him at risk, putting their house at risk. And...

Coral says we've got, you know, not only this fleet, we control the Navy, but we've got half the dragons. That's an incredibly important thing to say in a show called The House of the Dragon that has done not a great job of actually giving us the origin stories of pairing the dragons and the dragon riders. So...

There's a lot of just fun Maelys and Rhaenys history with her arriving to her own wedding on that dragon. And so riding the dragons into King's Landing is, yeah, the show of strength. And I agree it would have been important and really cool to actually tell us definitively what was happening there, given how much emphasis they are putting on the dragons that they control. Yeah.

So am I to believe, and first of all, Allison is not there when they actually tie the knot, right? Did I miss that? She's there. She is there. Okay. Yeah. Am I to understand that that was a rush job because there was a homicide at their party? It was supposed to be seven days of feasting and tourneys. And instead they're like, quickie wedding, don't even bother to clean up blood on the floor. We'll just leave that. Lainor is dabbing his bleeding nose still.

I mean, this is immediate. So what's the urgency? Is it because if they don't do this fast, Viserys is going to die and there will be this empty, you know, like this moment where like, who's going to take power? Or is it because there's obviously some security issues within this party? We need to like get like, was it almost like a secret service kind of thing? Or was it, what prompted the urgency there? I don't know.

I don't know. I just felt like it was get this done. This was such a mess. What a disaster. But let's get this done before anyone changes their mind. Maybe it's before the Valarians change their mind. Let's just get this done. Because Rhaenys is like, we're putting a target on our son's back. And what happens at the feast? And Criston punches him in the face and then two randos hurl him into a table.

Right. And his lover dies on the floor, you know? It's like, yeah. I think that's it, too. They just had to get it done immediately before anything else that's terrible could happen. But it connects to your larger question, Chris, about Viserys' state and how he's thinking about...

The future. I was struck by like what he said to Lionel about it hardly makes a good song, does it? Like it made me it felt very much like the sister scene to his conversation with Alicent in episode three in front of the bonfire where he's talking about dragon dreams and the power of prophecy against the power of dragons and how badly he wanted it to be true. Like he really wants to be a good king and a king who is remembered.

And he says here, you know, there's part of me that wishes I'd been tested. I often think that in the crucible, I may have been forged a different man as, as is repeatedly the case. Lionel has very sage counsel in response to that. Like usually the people who tested wish they hadn't been, um,

but I thought especially given the way the showrunners had described the Stepstones battle for Daemon as like this anvil in which his character was forged, that was really notable language that Viserys is so keenly aware. And this connects again to Corlys and that conversation, that great conversation from episode two about not waiting for the storm. This is the recurring thing with Viserys. He waits and waits and waits, and then he has no choice but to act impulsively and reactively to whatever new horror has unfolded in front of him. Yeah.

But I want to ask you, Mallory, because in this episode, Rhaenys says Viserys chose to sail into that tempest. Yes. I love such weird language when they've been, like, criticizing him for not sailing into a tempest, and then he does so, and Rhaenys is like, what a weak-ass move of his, you know? Well, I guess if you're sailing into the tempest, then the storm is already there, and you've awaited its coming. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah.

Well, I just don't feel like Viserys has a lot of longevity. After what we saw, there's obviously some ambiguity about whether or not those were his final breaths. Some debate about his medical care. Some purple polstice talk versus some leech talk. Chris, which camp are you in? You in polstice camp or leech camp? Want to give those polstices a try? Are you trying to reopen the, are the masers actually trying to kill Viserys conversation? Is that a conspiracy? Yeah.

I mean, that's what we talked about before, this sort of Grand Maester conspiracy. Like, you know, is he leeching him to death or not? We don't know. It seems strange that they did not have like a better treatment plan for this, you know, and also just like Patty Considine is the one kind of diagnosing Viserys. But like in the show, they're just like, oh my God, this guy's body's just falling off.

That's okay. So that's the other English monarch I actually want to talk about was Henry IV had this skin condition where basically his body parts just kept falling off until he was done. So I don't know if they're trying to do something like that. But yeah, we had talked offline or outside of this podcast about this interview that Patty Constantine gave where he diagnosed Viserys with leprosy, like a symbolic leprosy, but I guess not a catching leprosy because like Alison doesn't have it.

I don't really know. It's a particular Westerosi strain of leprosy, I guess. But like, this is not quite what's happening in the book. In the book, he's just getting like cut by the throne in the way that we mentioned before. So this is a show invention situation, a fun challenge for the makeup department, to be sure. It's gross. It's really disgusting.

I don't have anything else. I think we wrapped it all up really nicely in a bow. I feel like the show is going to change pretty drastically in the next week. I'm sad to say goodbye to our young cast here. It's what a wonderful five episodes it's been, but I'm so excited to welcome our new cast. I wonder what this, you know, so I, do I find my foot tapping a little bit sometimes being like, let's speed things up a little bit? I do.

I do wonder what would have happened if these first six, five episodes were the first 10 episodes and that they had expanded and filled in some of the blanks and not done the time jumping. I'm sure they were concerned that just simply not enough exciting shit happens here. But if you had made...

And they tried to make Crabbe feeder into Darth Vader there for a few minutes. So like, I think that they were trying to build up dramatic tension, but I do wonder whether or not, not could they do it again? Would they have done it differently? But yeah,

If it was like 10 episodes of these younger women before they become who they're going to become, and this is like all the sort of preamble that goes in the first season, yeah, I'm sure some people would have been like, did we have to spend this much time finding out about this guy or that person? But on the other hand, it seems like we've come out of this period and be like, oh, I would have liked to have known how Laris came across all this information. You know, and that kind of thing. Yeah.

I am anticipating, I have not seen the next episode. I have no idea what's going to happen, but given what we know, what has been widely reported. And we haven't seen scenes from next week either. No, we have not. Cause right. We, that's not included in the screener. Given what's widely reported about the time jump to come, as Joe already mentioned, I'm anticipating, even if it is a great episode, just in a vacuum as an episode of TV, which I think it will be.

I'm anticipating a real period of re-acclimation where we're like, wow, what is all this stuff that happened that we missed and that that takes some real getting used to. But then ultimately that will settle into the new pace of the show. I am like, I don't know why, but I'm so bizarrely defensive of Emma Darcy and Olivia Cooke who are coming in because all I'm hearing is how much people are going to miss

these young women who are doing such a great job. But Olivia and Emma were cast first and these young women were cast to play their younger versions. And so I'm like, I'm frustrated. I also think Olivia Cooke is awesome. I haven't seen a lot of Emma Darcy stuff. Olivia Cooke's great. Yeah.

I think it's going to, I think they're going to kill it. I think they're going to be really good. I think they're absolutely going to kill it. Yeah. Well, until next week, where I'm sure we'll have a ton of talk to talk about. Joanna, Mal, it was great chatting with you today. We were produced as always by Steve Allman. You can listen to Joanna and Mallory on House of R on Tuesdays. They're deep dive. You can listen to Andy and I this week on Monday. We will be talking about House of the Dragon, but we are also covering the industry season finale next.

and the premiere of Atlanta. So, you know, full watch, but some dragon talk for sure. It was wonderful to chat with you two. I can't wait to hear you and Andy talk about all the oranges and cinnamon on those ships to Essos. Oh, I thought that there was like oranges and cinnamon in the finale of Industry. I was like, oh my gosh. I mean, there might be, you know. Talk to you next week. This episode is brought to you by State Farm.

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