'House of the Dragon' Episode 4 Reactions | Talk the Thrones
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Hello, and welcome to Talk the Thrones. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at TheRinger.com, and I am joined by Ringer senior staff writer Joanna Robinson, and the mayor of the Street of Silk, Mallory Rubin, and we're here to talk about the fourth episode of House of the Dragon. It's called The King of the Narrow Sea. It's so wonderful to have, would you call it a family reunion here today, guys? Yeah.

Yeah, a pleasant Targ gathering. Classic coming together. We share everything here on Dr. Thrones. So that was an episode of TV. And I'm going to ask you just straight off the bat, we could start with you, Mal. Of the many, many things, what was the most fucked up thing that happened in that episode of House of the Dragon? Let me say that this was my favorite episode of the season. I loved it. Same, same.

Let's start there. What was the most fucked up thing that happened this episode? I think that you are supposed to say, or you might be expecting me to say, Damon Targaryen trying to fuck his niece in public in a pleasure house. I got to be honest, I'm not sure that cracks my top five. I'm serious. I think the final four for me would be

A ancient man from House Dondarrion and a young boy from House Blackwood back-to-back proposing to Rhaenyra. House of the Dragon, hot D on a three-episode streak of involving children and marriage plots. Also, Lord Dondarrion, the deep, dry moat line. I don't think that's going to get it done. Next contender would be Alistair.

needing to give Viserys a sponge bath to gently dab his sores while he guzzles wine in the tub. My next contender would be the harrowing, haunting Viserys Alicent sex scene.

And then I think my next pick in my final four here would be Alison's judgment against Rhaenyra, the real disgust in her eyes at the prospect of Rhaenyra sullying her virtue. Those are my top four. What about you guys? Jo, what about you? Anything outside of Mallory's four contenders there? I think the cherry on the top of...

the royal marriage bed, which was my number one, would be the rat from The Departed, the end of The Departed, that scurries across the top of the four poster. Just real fine night for Alison Tytower. How about you, Chris? I think probably the...

overhead shot of Viserys' sore covered back as he performed his marital duties with his young wife was probably the moment where I was like,

is this really where I've arrived in my life? That this is what I'm doing. Deeply miserable, unhappy life. We can go through the episode itself. This was a very, I wouldn't say claustrophobic, but in previous episodes, we've either had a set piece or an adventure out into the woods. This was largely taking place within the walls of King's Landing itself. There was obviously a great escape there.

out of the castle and into, uh, what was that district called again? Is that the circus district? What was happening? I mean, it's obviously like a place where the theater arts... That looks like Bourbon Street. Yeah. Bourbon Street to me and on Mardi Gras, right? Exactly.

Just where anything the heart desires is available. Drama, theater, sample plates for some of the food stalls, and then any sexual perversion you wanted to explore, you could do that in the neighborhood that Rhaenyra escapes to. I'll just go through the episode itself. So this is the fourth episode. It's called The King of the Narrow Sea. That's in reference to what Daemon has been crowned after his victory over the crab feeder, but I'll get to that. So it opens up with Rhaenyra

I kind of a Westerosi version of the bachelorette, which Mallory referred to. And it would be funny if,

If it wasn't so dehumanizing for Rhaenyra and honestly fatal for a lot of her suitors who are clashing while online to give their spiel about why they deserve to be Rhaenyra's husband. She bails on this dating game early with Ser Criston, humiliating all the dudes and her father who are trying to pair her off for political benefit to various families, but ultimately to the Targaryens.

She gets back in King's Landing just in time as Daemon shows up wearing a crown of wood or kind of looks like a crown of thorns. And this is a party foul because you're not supposed to be wearing a crown when you address the real king. But after hearing about Daemon's conquest in the Stepstones, Viserys daps up his brother and is just like, you're back. You're back in my cool book, you know? And at a party later on, Rhaenyra and Daemon talk in Valyrian about the joys and pains of marriage.

Viserys hears from Otto that Corlys is going to marry off his daughter to the guy who runs Braavos, which would create a serious financial, military, and politically...

a family worth reckoning with if that were to happen. There is an increased urgency around marrying off Rhaenyra, which is interesting because that night she goes out to what I would, to have what I would call, I guess the British call a hen do. Is that what that is? Right? It's her and Daemon, Street of Silk, Pleasure House,

Some great food offerings and then basically a tapestry, to borrow a phrase used in this episode itself, of sexual pleasure. And it's really just like an absolute mural of flesh. Everybody's going at each other. Yeah. Guys, girls, whatever, family members, old, young, whatever.

It's just like, honestly, the czar of the telestrator couldn't even diagram the things that were happening in that pleasure house. But what does happen is Damon and Rhaenyra, they just get swept up in the moment. And despite the fact that he is her uncle and she is quite young.

They start doing... Like, it starts with a little bit of the air kissing. You know what I mean? Which is pretty illicit. And then there's some stuff happening below the beltline that we're going to have to really talk about because I'm not exactly sure what happens. We'll get to it. Going frame by frame? Yeah. Can't wait. Maybe. Play by play. Rhaenyra, after Daemon... We have Daemon's...

Kind of like either his senses come to him or he fails to perform. Rhaenyra deuces out on that situation, goes home and immediately sleeps with Ser Criston to seal the night off. While all this is happening, we get a very cool scene of Viserys and Alicent making more heirs together that made me die a little bit on the inside.

Turns out Otto's got some little birds on the street, so he tells Viserys that the word around the schoolyard is that Rhaenyra has defiled herself with Daemon. Viserys gets mad at everyone over this, including Otto, Rhaenyra, and Daemon. Alicent, who had been snooping on this situation, snooping seeming to run in the Hightower family, confronts Rhaenyra,

on the Damon stuff and she basically lies on her dead mother's name saying that she did not hook up with Damon. I guess, tactically... Actually, we should amend our most fucked up thing from the episode. Yeah, swearing on your dead mom that you didn't hook up with your uncle is fucked up. Very rough. Coming in at number five.

Despite her protests, Viserys is very pissed and essentially marries her off to Corlys' son, but not before he stops to do a little show and tell with a dagger and tells her about how there's a prince who was promised and that's the secret that we're guarding and we got to get ready for the Song of Ice and Fire season seven Game of Thrones episode.

A lot of people have thoughts on it, but you know, like he was like, have you seen rise of Skywalker? Are you familiar with daggers? Have you logged into Reddit recently? Like, uh, anyway, so she understands or gets an even greater understanding of what the sort of Targaryen family responsibility is.

That's greater than any kind of sitting on a throne or having a crown or running a kingdom. It's really about this oncoming future evil that they have to combat with the prince who was promised leading the way. She gets what she wants, but...

Oh, so Rhaenyra agrees to this proposed union, but her price for this is that Otto has to go. Because she's like, this guy has been messing around for too long. He's moving against you politically. He's got you marrying his daughter. He's telling you that I'm trouble. We got to get rid of this guy. So she's like, I'll marry Corlys' kid, but you got to get rid of Otto. He goes through with it. He also goes through with having his maester bring her a cup of...

of abortion tea at the end of the episode, which is just like, again, number seven of the fucked up things that happened. Okay. I want to talk a little bit about the ending of this episode, the dagger scene, because this was something that I obviously noted both of you reacted to quite passionately in the first episode when Viserys talks to Rhaenyra for the first time about

the dream and what the Targaryens are actually responsible for. Was, for me, a novice when it comes to this stuff, and Joe, we can start with you here, was this...

a huge revelation to hear the prince who was promised be uttered on this show? Or is this just a continuation of the song that Viserys has been singing since the first episode? It feels like a continuation of that first episode song. But the fact that it is literally written on the dagger is truly wild to me. This answers a couple questions for us about how the song was passed down through the generations. If people...

If some kings died without passing it down, did their heirs remember to shove the dagger, the family heirloom in the fire and reveal the writing there? But I have follow-up questions for that. Did Peter Baelish, Littlefinger, who had that dagger for a while, never think to shove it in the fire? I feel like that's something he would always be checking for. Well, has Peter Baelish ever seen Lord of the Rings? Yes.

and seen the One Ring cast into the flames to reveal the inscription. A lot of this comes down to what other pieces of nerd culture the characters in this show are familiar with. It's a great point. But the fact that it's literally inscribed on the knife that then will kill the Night King in the future when Arya wields it is, of course, interesting. But I think for this show...

what's really interesting is this conversation, but what it boils down to when he says, you know, there's something more important than your desires, Raniera, right? Is this idea of,

duty, which Molly likes to talk about a lot. Molly loves this talk of duty versus love and what do you choose in the world of Westeros. Love is the death of duty. And when she brought that up before we started watching this season, I was like, well, we're not going to get a lot of talk about duty from the fucking Targaryens. The Targaryens don't care about duty. That's a stark

It's not a Targaryen concept, but this idea of the realm, which is like what Varys would talk about all the time. Like, what do we owe the people that we rule? And this comes up in this very episode when they're out on the street watching a mummer's farce, Chris's favorite thing. Chris's mummers!

And Rhaenyra tries to chime in and she's like, lies, Lennar. And Daemon's like, it matters what the small folk think. Like, their opinion matters. And she's like, no, it doesn't. And so her disconnect from the fact that to be queen means you have a responsibility to the kingdom and all these people out here are your responsibility. It's not just an inside the keep thing.

power play. That all sort of came bubbling in the surface of this episode. Right, Mal? Like, what do you think? I'm currently thinking about how Rhaenyra sounds like Saw Gerrera shouting lies, deception. So I'm just going to keep referencing other stories instead of talking about this one, I guess. I was really... I was really...

We've talked in each pod about the timeframe. And one of the spots that I found myself thinking most about the passage of time was this sequence, because it's really notable to me that the premiere concludes with this massive reveal from Viserys to Rhaenyra, which is a huge canon download, but also more so even than naming her heir, the thing that cements the trust and the choice and how real that is to him, how serious he is about it in that moment that he is passing down that information to her, the burden of their rule, right?

He then waits four and a half years.

to show her this, to take the next step. And I think that is so emblematic of his failure and like deeply rooted struggle as a father or limitation, maybe as a father, as a mentor, as a king. He always talks about the necessity, the burden that he carries, the weight that they shoulder, the things that he needs her to be thinking about instead of just her own desire, as you mentioned that quote, Joe.

But he rarely takes the time to explain how, to show her what that looks like tangibly. This should have been the next day for them. I'm glad to see she's finally graduated from cupbearer to having like an actual seat at the table of the small council. Oh, yeah. I noticed that. Yeah. But I think, Chris, for like what's also true, I love what you said there, Malin. I think what's also true, if we think about this as a succession story. Yes.

The question of who has what information going forward, like the Mummer's Farce lays it out for us that like, you know, we've got Aegon, the baby, Rhaenyra and Daemon are these sort of like contenders for the throne. Who knows what going forward? Which of the Roy kids on Succession has some sort of like secret intel on Waystar Royquo that like might be important going forward? So that's going to be interesting to think about who knows what as we figure out who should sit their butt on that big chair. To that point,

I was pretty struck by the fact that the Kingsguard is bringing Rhaenyra into his chambers. Kristen and another member of the Kingsguard are right there at the open door, and Rhaenyra walks right up to the fire and the blade. Like, this is in plain sight. This is... Multiple people in this moment can see that there. And not that they're there to hear the Prince That Was Promised line and the subsequent discussion, but...

People who are paying attention, and especially in an episode where the little birds are brought in and Massaria's role as the white worm. Where Allison is just like, I'm behind this changing. Yeah, we're meant to think in this episode about who is observing, hearing, seeing what. And the fact that that was just out in plain sight really stood out to me.

Viserys needs to be a little... Either needs to be a little more careful with this thing he thinks is this preciously guarded secret, or just tell everyone. You two don't regularly roast your carving knife? Like, that's not... Just, you know, cleaning it. Maybe he'll be able to tell them, yeah, I'm just using this to cauterize my most recent sword. I guess the reason why I wanted to ask you, Andy and I just had this discussion for The Watch for tonight, where...

Game of Thrones, the show, early on introduced this idea that winter was coming. That for all of the political, who's going to, Ned and Cersei and Robert Baratheon and all the stuff that was happening in that first season, very early on, they gave us a glimpse of this existential threat

that these people would eventually face. And in some ways, that was the... It wasn't the only story engine, but it was the overstory engine. Like, eventually, this is coming. Eventually, we can always check in on this every couple of episodes and be like, is winter here? Is winter going to be long? What are we going to do when winter comes? What does that mean? And House of the Dragon, probably, at least in terms of its text, does not have something like that, right? Like, it doesn't have...

a near supernatural kind of, uh,

facing these characters necessarily that I know of based on what we have seen so far. And I thought it was interesting that they have now returned to this idea that something governs who becomes king or queen and what they do with that power beyond just like, how can we, in Daemon's words, purify the Targaryen bloodline and restore it to its glory. That's what Daemon ultimately wants to do, even though he's probably also...

weirdly into his niece. So I wanted to throw that out and ask the two of you to the extent that you're capable of answering that without giving away like, well, this is what's going to happen in this show. Like whether or not you feel like this is the showrunners bringing in something that's like, here's just a little seasoning to make this feel bigger than just Targaryen Civil War.

I mean, I think it achieves that. I think it's doing a couple things. First of all, I guess this is, you know, we talked about this before, I think in episode one, but this is something that George R. R. Martin came up with, this idea that like this traces back to Acon the Conqueror. It's nowhere in the text that we've read. And so it's like sent all the book readers in this huge...

you know, downward spiral of who knew what when, and like, how does this explain how various Targaryens reacted whenever winter came? They're like, winter's here. Is this the winter? Like, is this the one? So, you know, keeping our eyes on winter. But I think to your point, it gives more connective tissue to the original series, which is obviously something HBO wants. They want this to feel like a show that is both new yet familiar. And this is a major way to do that.

I think it also connects to that larger through line of portents, signs, signs, portents, the dreams, the prophecies. And Joe made a really wonderful observation. I believe this was on our episode two house of our deep dive, though. Don't quote me on that because I can't remember which pot is which anymore.

Joe spoke so beautifully about this larger idea of Targaryen madness and the weight that this information would have on each of these rulers and how interesting that will be to track across this show and this story. Like, what does this do to people once they know? Is this what drives the Mad King mad? Right. Exactly. And like, we're watching in real time the weight that this is...

inflicting on Viserys, a character who is already so inclined to put stock into his own dream, this idea that we heard him discuss with Alicent by the bonfire, that pop and bonfire in episode three about the power of prophecy compared to the power of dragons and the way that he so desperately wanted to be a dreamer. He is really inclined to believe that this is the most serious thing in his life and in the world.

What does that do to a person? How does that influence the decisions they make and the way they treat the other people in their lives and the expectations that they hold for their children or anyone else around them? And I think that that will then continue to be true for anyone who receives that information. So Joe called that out early, and I think it's really going to be central to the entire story that we're watching. The larger quote about Targaryen madness is that when a Targaryen is born, a coin flips.

One side is greatness. The other side is madness. So it's sort of like, what will this do to you? Will it drive you to greatness or will it drive you to madness? This big, huge, burdensome knowledge that you have. And she's already talked. She talks about it both in kind of like a dark way at the mummer's farce that she's at this week where she's just like, I don't give a shit what these people think of me. Like, if I want to, I'll just ignite them. Yeah, alarming. And in other situations, mostly related to, I think,

the treatment of women in the world that she's in. She's just kind of like, I don't really feel like we need to adhere to the old ways of doing things or what tradition has said. And we know that eventually a Targaryen will want to smash the wheel. And that is something that runs through. So I'm also kind of curious about how it plays out in terms of

traditionalists or Targaryen reformers, you know, because sometimes the latter is actually not great. Sometimes the latter can be a reformer, but winds up lighting everything on fire in their wake. Well, it's all connected, right? Because if you think that you're reforming in pursuit of saving the world, then you'll stop at nothing.

to achieve that. Now, Dany, from everything we know, did not ever receive this information. This, as far as we can tell so far, and maybe we'll learn more, dies with Rhaegar. That's our assumption at the moment. But even so, more broadly for these other characters in this slice of history, I think this also connects to this other through line we've been discussing a lot, which was also really present in this episode, this idea of loneliness. I imagine even dragons get lonely, as Viserys says. We've mentioned on many pods the Aemon idea about Dany

about Daenerys, Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing. The loneliness of this knowledge is a specific thing for Viserys, is a specific thing for Rhaenyra. But even though it is so particular to them, it is something that connects them to Daemon, to Alicent, characters who are also defined by feeling utterly, utterly isolated from the people that they would seek to be close to.

I have a cure for loneliness. Is it sex? Is it a field trip to the street of silk with your uncle? It's throwing on some Barney sweatshirt and a beanie. A slouch beanie. And going out with your uncle. This was an incredible outfit. Seriously. Getting in your cups.

I have this outfit. And then going down to three sub-mid basements in a nightclub in New York City in the early 80s and finding out just what you're into. So let's just talk about that scene because honestly, there was a lot that happened in this episode, but they made the choice to make this the centerpiece.

Some episodes are dragon battles. You said earlier there was no set piece. I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Yeah, well, I guess I stand corrected. This was the set piece of the episode. It was this sexual ballet. Extravaganza. Extravaganza, yeah. I liked flesh mural, which is what you went with earlier. I have a couple of things. Either one of you answer any of these things to me. I'm just going to point out some observations, okay? Uh-huh. So...

Let's just go before the pleasure house. I think Damon flying over the boat and buzzing the tower, so to speak, in the earlier scene. Real maverick energy there. There's a little bit of that. That feels like a little bit more of a loaded gesture after we see what happens in the rest of the episode. Correct? Yeah. A little just the tip foreshadowing. Oh, Jesus. No. For me. Joe? Joe?

For me, I thought an important moment there is how genuinely and tenderly concerned Kristen Cole seemed to be for Rhaenyra. Yeah, he's a good guy. You know, like... To go from the unpredictability of Daemon to the safe, nurturing embrace of Kristen Cole. All right, so when we get...

into the pleasure zone. I guess I just want to ask this. Are you saying pleasure zone because you said buzz the tower and you have danger zone in your head right now? Should we do like a little remix right here? I'm also running out of ways to say... Highway to the pleasure zone.

I was just thinking about the auto zone. Anyway, let's talk about the pleasure zone. I guess I'm going to ask this question on a podcast. Damon couldn't perform because he chronically fails to do so or because the little voice inside his head told him not to have sex with his niece. I think this is going to be the riff that drives House of R apart, that tears us apart.

Because I think it was more than just a performance issue for Damon. I think there's something. Okay, never mind. We agree. Never mind. I thought Mallory, given the barrage of texts we've gotten from Mallory on this issue, I thought she was going to come down firmly on it was a performance issue. So the read that we have is that they're getting after it. It's getting hotter and hotter and steamier and steamier. He then all of a sudden stops kissing her and is like, I can't. We can't.

But she's also like, you definitely want to though, right? I'm trying to read the choreography here. It's really interesting that this is what I'm discussing. No, no, no. Keep going. Yeah, keep giving us the point. But I think it's worth noting because it's like, what are his designs on her? And what's the purpose of this? They obviously have chemistry.

Ever since he first got here when she was 14, gross. But definitely in this episode, he's looking at her like a cat looks like a bowl of cream. Like that is something that he has been doing. On the bridge at Dragonstone, they have sparks are flying. Sparks aplenty.

Another question to ask, and you might ask it, Chris, is about how much of this is a calculated political play for Daemon to put Rhaenyra in a position to compromise her so much that Viserys is forced to marry her off to Daemon and then Daemon gets to be king anyway. Which, you know, we get that conversation with Viserys later. I think...

All of those ingredients are in the mix, and it's what makes Damon such an interesting character. Because I think that move that he makes right before they start to go at it, where he pulls the slouch beanie off. Yes. To make it so that everyone knows who this is down there. That seems like the part of Damon that's like, I'm going to compromise her, and then I'm going to get what I want. I was almost bummed out that Otto had such an obvious, like, the kid hanging outside thing.

Because it would have been really funny if someone was like, Otto, Otto, I saw the princess at a pleasure house and people were like, well, were you at the pleasure house? And the guy would be like, uh...

Oh, God. But, I mean, that's the thing. And that's what Viserys and, like, Viserys says, so what? When Otto's like, you're the princess at the pleasure house. He's like, so what? And then, I love how you were making Chris do the play-by-play much the way that Viserys is like, you gotta say it, Otto. If you're gonna walk into my room and accuse my daughter of something. One of my favorite scenes. Yeah.

You gotta do the whole thing. Speak it plainly. Yeah. He's like, so what if she was there? And then he's like, well, she was, you know, fucking her uncle publicly. That's a bummer. But so I guess the rules are she can go.

And observe. And there were many like well-dressed lords there. So it's like, it's not a problem to be in the pleasure house. It's a problem as a royal woman to lose your virginity before the political marriage that you're supposed to have. Mal, any comments on Damon's performance anxiety?

Many, most of which I'm afraid to make on a podcast. I think you two summed it up well. I thought that the flimsy nature of the disguise was notable to me as well, even before he removes the beanie because we have this moment where Rhaenyra fleeing from the Flamin' Hot Cheeto vendor. Yeah.

into a member of the Gold Cloaks who recognizes her immediately. Like, it's no secret that they will be recognizable. These are two of the most recognizable people in the entire world. Damon himself, whether he actually said air for a day is not relevant.

I mean, it is more broadly, but in this sense is not what's relevant is that his exploits in pleasure houses make their way back into the red keep. And he knows that. And so he brought her into that situation knowing that. I think that is true. I also think it's true, as you said, that they have genuine passion for each other. These are people who are drawn to each other magnetically. The way when she is on the on the marriage tour, like,

receiving all of these suitors she has no interest in, what is she doing? She's holding the necklace that he gave her. When he walks in, fresh haircut,

shiny armor, grayscale riddled crap feeder hammer in his hand. She is looking at him with lust in her eyes and he looks at her with much the same expression in the godswood later. So they are drawn to each other. You can feel that magnetism in that sequence. The exact play by play of what is unfolding with the removing of the hat, the kissing, pinning against the wall. I have such detailed notes on this scene you would not

Leave it. Save it for the deep dive. Fear not. Taking off her, opening her shirt, taking down her pants, turns around on the wall, then she turns back to kiss him and that's when he pulls away. And I think it is a mixture of... Do you think we could put the old BS report warning...

At the top of House of R this week, where it's like, this is a free-flowing conversation that occasionally touches on mature topics. That's a good idea. It's a good idea. You know, we did see him in episode one under Wadjo, and I have subsequently taken to calling his cloak of shame. So he has had some performance issues before, and that's okay. It happens. Nothing to be ashamed of. I'm only pointing it out because it seems like an issue for him, and that's, you know...

I would say that Damon is a character riddled by desire or driven by desire, but riddled by self-doubt. And I think that this scene embodies a lot of that, but so does his subsequent conversation with Viserys in the throne room later. After talking with you two, I am convinced that his ultimate goal is, I knew if I did this, we would get caught because I was going to expose us. And this is what Viserys would say,

And that this is the only way I could reveal to him like what,

the choice should be, which is to marry me off to her and create the super Targaryen. The thing he says in the book, which isn't even a little tougher than what he says in this episode, he says, give the girl to me to wife. Who else would take her now? That's what he says to Viserys. But I think it's a little bit more complicated. What a piece of shit, Dame. Come on, man. But I think it's more complicated than that, right? Mallory, hit it. All of that is there and true and hard to ignore. Yes.

But I couldn't stop thinking about the conversation that Damon and Rhaenyra had after the welcome home party. Godswood, what a location for that little shindig. They're getting as much use out of that weirwood tree as they can. They're like, what can we set under this tree? Yeah.

One of the things that Damon says to Rhaenyra, and that is a really, really rich and intriguing conversation where Rhaenyra reveals and shares a lot about how she feels about marriage and childbirth and all of these very real things that are weighing on her deeply and that she is rebelling against. And one of the things that Damon says to her is you cannot live your life in fear or you will forsake the best parts of it. And I think that that is

as central to his character and as central to what is unfolding here as the ambition and any sort of scheming or striving because he's like a very spirited person. And it's a lot of this second son thing

little brother energy where so much of his life has been defined by needing to prove his worth and trying to earn other people's affection and doing the things that makes him happy. The way that he says, like, fucking is a pleasure, that's a person who means that and spends a lot of his time living inside of that idea. And I think that that's a thing that he wants Rhaenyra to embrace and really experience too. But more than one thing can be true at once. That's why he's an interesting character. Yeah.

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In the previous episode, Otto tries to marry off Rhaenyra to a two-year-old. He suggests that they do that. So my question to you, Jo, is how scandalous would it be if Daemon was just like a suitor and that there wasn't the added component of did Daemon take her virginity? I think, so if we're ranking like the scandals here, the options, I think that Daemon, if Daemon didn't have, already have a wife, right?

and wanted to marry his niece, Rhaenyra. The wife, Daemon's first wife. She's a real problem, right? But if he wanted to marry Rhaenyra, that's super normal. Like, could not be more normal in House Targaryen, right? Right, Mallory? I'm not wrong about that. Positively tame. Yeah, I wasn't sure whether that had societally been starting to age out a little bit, but I guess not. The Targaryens are still marrying like siblings to siblings. Like, it's totally fine. No prob.

The question of Sir Criston and Daemon, like, pre-marriage, I think either... I think in terms of marriage, in terms of your wish last week, Chris, of, like, can she marry good old Criston Cole? That's way more scandalous than marrying her uncle. I thought, okay, for sure. Is marrying, you know, someone of lower station on the Kingsguard, et cetera. So, like...

If premarital sex is off the table and it's not, it's on the table, it's on the in the pleasure palace on, you know, whatever. But like when you say it's on the table, you mean like it's on the painted table. I do. Any other surface. Yeah. Orgy tapestry you could possibly find. Yeah. I think that's that's that. And I don't know what I am. Genuinely, we're recording this a little early. I'm really curious to see.

What happens with the discourse? We're not here to talk about the discourse, but I don't know how clutch the pearls are going to be. This is something that we've been trying to, like, ready people for. This is a Targaryen show. Like, incest is everywhere. I thought everybody was going to lose it after the first episode with the jousting, dying childbirth montage. And people seem to roll with it. So what's a night at the pleasure house with your uncle, you know? I guess the question...

Like, if you want to relate this to Jaime and Cersei and, like, how people felt about that in that show versus this show, like, that was presented as shameful. And this incest, Targaryen incest, is supposed to be pretty, like, normalized at this time. And there's also the age gap. And it doesn't, like, I'm not clutching pearls necessarily, but I feel like people are going to want to talk about how Daemon is essentially groomed Rhaenyra, which is...

Not true. I'm sure it will come up. Yeah. So, I don't know. The truth is, is that they do not do the deed. Right? So, Rhaenyra coming back and she's probably thinking to herself, you know, well, I'm going to just deny everything until I'm like, because ultimately at the end of the day, this is hearsay.

Why does she go so far as to swear on her mother, her dead mother, that nothing happened to Allison? Were you surprised when it happened? When she said that?

Like, I'm not surprised that she doesn't trust Alicent. Like, after everything that's happened. Like, they, you know, at the start of the episode, you're seeing these women, like, come back together in a way that's very, like, hopeful. Opening up to each other, grabbing each other's hands, talking about how they missed each other. And so you're like, okay, are we moving back to, okay, we're gonna run out of our dragon and eat cake together? Like, let's do it, ladies. And then this happens, and I was watching it, yeah, going, why are, why, Rhaenyra, why are you, like, I really feel

I feel like my read on Alicent in this episode is that if Rhaenyra had told her the truth, Alicent would have helped her and protected her. But I can understand why Rhaenyra would feel that that was not...

not the case. I feel like Alicent came at her with real horror in her eyes and judgment in her words and on her face. And we have a lot of shots in this episode of Alicent, you know, gazing out at the sept. I think there's a lot of real tragic stuff happening with Alicent in this episode. And I have a lot of sympathy for her. But inside of specifically that scene with Rhaenyra, I think that Rhaenyra sensed that this was not something that Alicent would...

approve of or understand. And like, even, even in that bench sequence at the earlier in the episode at the, at that party where there is this

and sort of rediscovered affection between them that we can assume at least is the first time they've experienced anything like that with each other for years based on where we saw them last episode, right? Yeah, yeah. But even inside of that, there is such a tension point over this idea of, you know, being made to produce heirs. And Rhaenyra is saying that with such disdain. And of course, that is Alicent's circumstance. And we see that play out on her face in real time to the point where Rhaenyra even like

grabs her hand and apologizes and says she's sorry. Yeah. And I thought that one of the most compelling parts of this episode in terms of really reinforcing this theme and this idea was...

this cutting between, because you have the contrast of what happens with Rhaenyra and Daemon and then Rhaenyra and Kristen, which I also think is interesting and notable in terms of the very raucous, public, sensory overload nature of the Daemon scene and the very intimate, personal, quiet, private Kristen sequence, the way he folds and looks at his white cloak. Like, you're not just undressing a person, he's uncloaking his vows. But,

We are cutting between Alicent. We see her, that conversation on the bench. We see the look on her face as she is rocking their new child, Helena, the baby who won't stop crying.

She is drinking a potion before bed. I presumed that was a sleeping potion of some sort. She looks miserable and deeply lonely throughout this entire episode. The bathing sequence. She's summoned to Viserys' chambers. And the camera is above, so we see these sores on his back, but also this vacant expression in her eyes. I was wondering if that shot was because, like, Patty wasn't there that day, so they needed, like, a back double to be.

I actually also wondered that if for like everyone's comfort or whatever. But like also, I mean, to your point, Mal, like that angle makes her look so pinned down. Oh, yeah. So I agree with all of that. I think you're dead on about all of that, especially like when she's jiggling Helena on her hip, the wall, the window looks like a cage, like looks absolutely like a cage. It's like she's trapped and she's feeling trapped and

I still feel... I'm curious what you think, Chris. I still feel like, yes, Allison is judging her and would judge her and wouldn't understand. She wouldn't be like, that's fine that you went out with Damon. But I think if Raniro was like, I don't know, I was confused, I got swept up in the moment, something like that, I don't think Allison would run to her father. I don't think that's what she would do in this moment. This is the interesting thing with what they're trying to do on this show with the time span. So...

One of the fascinating things that happens to you as you age out of childhood into adulthood is how you define yourself. And is Alison defining herself as Viserys's wife?

as Rhaenyra's friend, as Otto's daughter? You know, is she defining herself as the queen, you know, as the mother of the would-be possible heir of the throne? You know, like, there are so many different questions of identity that go into, especially this point in people's lives, even if in such a fucked up world as Game of Thrones, like, still, you're like, huh, like, do I think of myself as this, or do I think of myself as that? So, Jo, I take your point, like,

if Rhaenyra had been like, honestly, like I got kind of hammered and like next thing I knew I was in this crazy place and you know, within my family, it's not out of the question for the stuff like this to happen, but like, I'm glad I didn't do it. I don't know. I mean, would she have been more scandalized if she had been like, and then I came home and immediately lost my virginity to Sir Kristen? Like how far could the truth go there? I guess. Yeah, that's a good question. I,

I think what, so I agree, Joe, I don't think she would have just run off and tattled and spread the reveal around. I'm with you there. To me, what I guess feels more germane than that hypothetical is the fact that we don't get to see because Rhaenyra doesn't feel like this is a person she can tell the truth to anymore. And, you know, we hear Alison say it, Chris, to that point of how do you think about yourself and who you are and who you've become? I think this is something that Alison is trying

tormented by right now. And it's really devastating because she says when she's telling Rhaenyra that she's glad she's home, she says, I find I have few friends lately. I like to believe I'm the Lady Alicent, but all anyone sees when they look at me now is the queen. And again, so if you think about those cutting scenes in that contrast where she's trying to tell Rhaenyra earlier, like, oh, what misery, all of these men vying for your favor. And Rhaenyra's saying, to me, that is misery because

this is not what I want. I don't want to be a pawn in someone else's political game. And Allison's like, I,

I didn't have a choice at all, right? At least you have some choice. Yeah. But to Rhaenyra, that's like small progress or no progress at all because the reality is she feels trapped in her life just as Alison does. And I think that's one of the tragic things unfolding here is that actually both of these women are trapped by their circumstance and will they be able to live in that truth together or will it drive them apart? And so Rhaenyra, just for that night,

gets to not only experience freedom, and we hear her literalize that and say that, like, I just want, I don't want to think about my, the burdens of my inheritance for tonight. I just want to, I want to have fun. I want to be free. That freedom, but also that pleasure. And,

And you can see her in real time, both with Damon and then with Kristen, like coming alive in her own body and really like experiencing what it means to grow up and be a woman and feel that spark with somebody else. And that's not something that is a part of Allison's life. And that's like devastating. So I thought that was all

really effective and well done. And obviously it's a scandalous and salacious episode, but I thought it was like a pretty thematically powerful one too. I want us to go back there to Chris's. I think Chris is, I think you're right, Mallory. And I think Chris's question is really key here of like, how does Alison define herself? Because I,

I think it's so interesting that the show wants us and wants Alison to ask that question of herself in a way that the book decided it did not have space for. And that's what is like the benefit of spending these

few episodes with these younger actresses in this role because like this time for Alison, especially is something we don't have any context for in the books. And so I really appreciate that this show is deepening the interior lives of these young women on the road to what's going to come next. It's so much more nuanced and so much more, you know, with love and respect to George, he was trying to write a fast jaunty little history and actually finish a book. Like it's just so much more nuanced

time and complexity to a character. What I love about someone like Alicent at this point is like we've seen her last week. I think Chris noted this last week, like play the game. She can play it. She can steer Viserys in a certain direction. She's not even playing the game this week. She's just trying to figure out

if she wants to even be in the game or what her role in the game is and all that sort of stuff. And I think that's really interesting. Let's talk a little bit about Allison's father. So quite a comeuppance for Otto this week. He winds up being... Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. Yeah, and he was playing the game on the edge and he fell off the edge. He was definitely pushing his agenda and people started to figure it out and really blew up his spot. I guess my question to you, Mal, is when Rhaenyra is like,

fine, you want me to marry Corlys' son, you got to clean up your own house then. Obviously, Viserys has been looking at Otto askew going back at least last episode, if not more, and that comprises years of time. I think that he can look at marrying Alicent as the ultimate act of his own will since he turned down marrying Corlys and Rhaenys' son

So, or daughter. So like he, he is obviously like, I, that was an act of free will, but maybe is now looking at that as like, was that sort of orchestrated by Otto? Now he's got this gossip monger who's telling him about what his daughter is doing and having his daughter followed. And he's just like, what is going on with you? But I guess my question is, is like, do you think that he fully understood the Viserys understood the sort of machinations of Otto or did Rhaenyra? Yeah. Did Rhaenyra blow his mind with her, uh,

this guy's fucked up and if you want me to do what you want me to do, you got to get him out of here. I think somewhere in between. I think that this had been a realization and a reckoning that was building over time and the conversation with Rhaenyra was the final straw that forced Viserys to act. But,

But that's like, again, this key aspect of his character and his arc. It always comes down to the moment where he is forced to act, where he has no choice but to make a decision because of a pitch or an appeal or a plea from somebody else. And so the fact that actually I think this had been dawning on him definitively sooner, and it took a moment like of this moment

and consequence for him to actually do something about it says a lot about their relationship. But it's in a sad way, too, because I think that Viserys, this connects to that loneliness discussion, actually has a lot of gratitude toward Otto. And he voices that here. He says, like, you taught me how to be king. He would have been utterly lost without this guy. And that's a very real thing. But it's also a real thing that Otto has manipulated and led him toward decisions for

quite a long stretch of time here. So Rhaenyra's not even the first person to bring this to his attention. Like, look back to episode one when Daemon is saying, why this guy instead of me? And Viserys in that moment is saying an unwavering and loyal hand. And Daemon says, a second son who stands to inherit nothing he doesn't seize for himself. So these seeds have been planted.

In episode three, Viserys starts to vocalize some of it when he pushes back on the Aegon agenda. Yeah. And says, you know, enough of the fucking politicking. The Aegon agenda. The Aegon agenda. But...

I was like, whoa. Like, I actually said out loud, whoa, when he brought up his father, Balon, the Spring Prince, and went that far back. I didn't get that. Can you guys help me out with that? What was going on there? So, you know, we didn't have time, actually, to really get into... to bring up Balon last week. And honestly, we don't really now either, but he's a very... Like, all members of the Targaryen line, like, they're always a shadow and a looming specter in these people's lives. And...

Baelon died after a royal hunt, which is why I thought we might talk about it a little bit last week. And maybe that was something that was on Viserys's mind in some capacity. But he was not initially Jaehaerys's heir. That was Rhaenys's father. Baelon was the second son. And after his older brother's death, he became the heir. Beloved by all, spring prince.

Bail on the brave and just drop dead because of his appendix exploded. Burst belly. Burst belly. Great Georgism there. And that is when Otto moved into power as we hear in this moment. And, um,

The way that Viserys was looking that far back into that depth of history, Jaehaerys' reign, not even his own, to say, when was the point where you started thinking about yourself instead of the realm, instead of me? And, like, to your point earlier, Chris, about...

at how Otto is trying to work Viserys, like what's the most effective way to control somebody? It's not to constantly make them do things they don't want to do. It's to make them think they do want to do the thing. And that's why I think hearing Viserys talk about Alicent here was so damning, much more so than everything with Rhaenyra, honestly, because he's saying this was the thing, the only thing that pulled me out of my grief.

And for that to have had some sort of ulterior sinister motive is like a devastating thing to have to confront. What do you think Viserys' first clue that maybe Alicent wasn't in love with him? Was it when he like tried to force her to look at him while they're having sex and she gives him a fake smile and then like turns away from him again? No.

was it that that's such a weird like vibe where he's just like i'm here with all my like leprosy nurses getting bathed and then i was like i got it you know this is wine in the tub like he's constantly come on who among us constantly guzzling the booze do you know what the best feeling in the whole world is mallory joe's like i love a glass of wine this

It's not about wine in the tub. It's about Viserys. The best feeling in the whole world is the boulder room. It's the hot shower, ice cold beer at the same time. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. You get like a champagne of beers in the shower. Oh my God. He brought Costner into it. What are you going to do? Now I'm thinking about Crash Davis and won't be able to concentrate on anything else. Now I'm thinking about Costner ironing in his boxers. Thanks, Chris. The thing with the thing with the Viserys firing Otto scene is

Part of it is, like, I feel like he's building up his file for HR. He's like, this is why I had to let this guy go. Here are all the previous offenses documented. But it's also very classic Viserys to try to please everyone and please no one at the same time. Like, he's trying to please Rhaenyra here by getting rid of Otto, but also telling Otto, but also telling Otto, you were good in these ways, but also bad in these ways. And Rhaenyra, okay, I'll do what you want here, but now you gotta marry Lenore. Like, all this sort of stuff.

That's the half measure, the shitty two stabs to kill the stag move from Viserys. I really love it. It's Aegon the Conqueror, the Mad King. Viserys the people pleaser. He's just a guy who just can't help but help. It's a better moniker than maggot fingers or whatever other names he might earn. I...

Joe, I'm glad you mentioned the stag and the double thrust and the hunt there, because like that whole that show, that play acting where you guys struck. I was so struck by, first of all, how many of the scenes between Viserys and Daemon have taken place in the throne room?

Going back to the premiere, right? It's so interesting to me that every time Viserys faces his brother in some sort of tense moment, he needs to be standing in a hall surrounded by statues of Targaryen kings. The Iron Throne literally

looming behind him to remind Damon, but also honestly himself. Yes. That he is the one in charge. And you mentioned the crown Joe. So he receives Damon comes in and he's looking great. He's got the fresh cut. He's got his driftwood crown on. He's holding, he's in his armor. He's holding the crap. Do you think he got that on Etsy? Like where did that crown come from? Oh no, they totally gave me this. This is just like a gift.

All the people in the stepstones, they were like coming up to me, tears in their eyes. Corlys crowns him in fire and blood. Notable. Yeah. But we see Daemon coming in, just looking like he's flying in on his dragon. Amazing. Coming in, having defeated his enemy, seasoned in battle. We hear elsewhere in this episode, Viserys, who's nostalgic, talking back to their mother, saying like, I wasn't the warrior. I wasn't the one who could do these things. And Viserys has to receive this.

decorative adornments. He receives his crown. He receives Blackfyre. We are coming off an episode where we see Daemon wield Dark Sister, the other ancestral Valyrian steel sword of House Targaryen, and cut through legions of foes with, frankly, ease. Viserys is using Blackfyre as a walking stick. It's a walking stick. Yeah. You pointed us out

this out a couple episodes ago. This is amazing. I'm not saying that he was like leaning on it, but this episode, he was, it was just like, it's a cane for him, this ancestral sword. It's a tough move. You know, you mentioned it like where those conversations always take place. I don't think I've ever seen Damon the least bit afraid of Viserys. I don't even think when Viserys has that dagger to his throat, he's like, you're not going to do this. And he is suggesting some truly

you know, earth shaking shit where he's just like, you should marry her off to me. You know, like, and he's just like, I'll fucking kill you. And Damon's just like, no, you're not. I don't know why. I don't know what the hold is that he has over him or whether he just thinks that for Sarah's is just ultimately like weak sauce, but it is kind of notable. Maybe it's Matt Smith's performance. He never seems the least bit shaken by. Yeah. He was flat out on the floor and seemed way more in control of that situation than the King. Yeah, for sure. Who,

Who becomes Hand? And is it hard... I would just imagine when you fire your Hand...

There's just a lot of like, you're very politically vulnerable. So is Corlys a logical, like if we're going to truly unite the House Valerian with House Targaryen, Corlys should get this job. Obviously, my personal pick would be Lionel Strong. But where does he go next, Jo? I don't think, how do I answer that, Chris? Oh, because you do know? Yeah, aren't I not supposed to answer that?

I guess I keep forgetting. I do think we can safely say the show has to this point set up no sound

sensible alternative other than Lionel Strong. That's the only actual choice that Viserys has to make. Whether he makes that choice is another matter. Corlys, we're on step one of working to bridge that divide with the Rhaenyra-Laenor marriage pact. But Corlys is multiple years deep into giving Viserys two very public seahorse-shaped middle fingers. Tylan Lannister arrived very recently. Melos is...

like their maggot and tea, like Instacart guy. That's not going to happen. And Beesbury is only, there's like a sound, a soundbite guy, you know, not Tyler Lannister. I don't know. Like, um, the, can I just talk about maestro mellows on the moon tea for a second? I, I,

Moontie? Is that what we call it? Yeah, that's what it's called in short term. I completely understand that we're trying to keep the circle of confidence tight, right? Real small, small circle here. I just still would not have sent an 80-year-old man to give my daughter some moontie. It's not what I would have done. I completely agree with you. We can wrap up soon, but I had a question. This is sort of an odd scene. Misaria.

So I guess moved out of Dragonstone, right? So here's my take on what's going on here.

I think she hasn't seen Daemon since she walked out of that scene in Dragonstone. And I think she's back at King's Landing. I think there's an implication that she owns property. She tells him to pay for the room on the way out. The first thing you should do once you get a little bit of money. Yeah, invest in the Street of Silk and get some property. She's also turned herself into something of a spymaster, which is really fun. Because you mentioned the little bird. What's the chain when that kid shows up at the palace? Yes.

They say it's a message from the White Worm. The White Worm is one of Misaria's names in the book. Lady Misery is another fun one. And then later we see that kid come in when she's with Damon and give her some money. Yeah. So she's the one who sent the little bird to Otto. Did she do that to fuck with Damon because she's pissed at him at what happened with Dragonstone or...

some other thing, or just to earn some money because she doesn't care. Like, I don't know exactly what her motivation was, but she's back in town. She's no longer a sex worker. She's now some kind of spymaster. Right, Mal? And she's been doing this for some time. For some time. Because one of the things that Otto says to Viserys is...

as your hand, I must maintain trusted sources of information. And this person's never steered me wrong. Never led me astray. So, Masaria and her little birds have been feeding Otto reliable intel for some time now. I have one more, like, kind of like, help me out here question. I obviously am familiar with Braavos in, uh, the, the main show. Well,

Oysters, clams, and cockles. But marrying into the Braavos family or whatever, they are the big bank of this world as much as they are in the future, right? The Iron Bank of Braavos, that's already a thing that they have money there. There's been a long history with Targaryens sort of having difficulty with Braavos because the Braavosi, the Free Cities,

the Targaryens because they come from Valyria, so they hate the Targaryens. I don't know that they would necessarily like the Velaryons that much better necessarily because they're also an old Valyria family, but at least they don't have dragons, I suppose. But yeah, this is a big, this has been a tricky... Yeah, I guess, yeah, that's true. This would be like a tricky diplomatic...

relationship between like a detente between Braavos and the Targaryen. So if Corlys gets Braavos on his team, that's just a major unbalancing of the scales in terms of these families, for sure. Okay. Well, any other closing notes that you wanted to drop on this episode? I know obviously you'll go really deep on this on House of R on Tuesday. Mallory, did you do any research for where do X hands go aside from being beheaded? No.

Where do whores go? Where do ex-hands go? You know, yeah, I actually was thinking about that since Chris had expressed an interest in chatting about that. Well, I was just like wondering, like, is he just hanging around? Because his daughter's still the queen. So does he like, is he exiled? Right, royal father-in-law? Yeah, right. There's some options, right? Like Tywin just went back to Casterly Rock. He was the Mad King's hand. Yeah.

Right. And then Jamie Lancer gets appointed the king's guard and Tywin's like, fine, I'll go back to my beautiful estate and I don't know, plot your downfall, I guess. Brandon Rivers is a hand that was sent to the wall. That's that's something that happened to a hand of the king. I was thinking about Roger, our guy, Lord Roger Baratheon, a lot because he that's like pretty recent.

since that happened early, admittedly, in Jaehaerys' reign, but still, like, a hand who overplayed his hand made way too risky of a push. And, Chris, actually, you'll love this because this connects to incest and Targaryens liking to fuck each other. Full circle, baby. Because Jaehaerys...

And his sister, the good Queen Alisaine, they were brother and sister who really wanted to marry each other no matter what other people told them. That's actually what led to the doctrine of exceptionalism, which you've heard us talk about before. This actual writing into law of the idea that, yes, correct, incest is bad, the faith of the seven prohibits it, except we're different, we're the Targaryens, so we can fuck each other all we want. Back off. And Lord Roger, who married Jaehaerys' mother...

was not in favor of this match and thought it would lead to the realm rebelling against them and citing the rage of the faith again and ended up going through all sorts of plots and schemes and plots, our fave there, and ultimately was removed as hand. But Jaehaerys, who, as we've noted before, was named the conciliator and gave a lot of grace and second chances to people, eventually welcomed him back into the fold. But with...

multiple conditions and a really dope, let me walk you by my dragon in the courtyard to remind you that I have this and that you shouldn't fuck with me again. So it's possible to maintain some sort of relationship, but it's also very possible that you end up like Ned, beheaded, or you end up like...

Lucas Harroway, the hand of Maegor the Cruel, beheaded because Maegor thought that he was working against him. It really seems like it's one of two options. You get beheaded. Or you go chill for a bit and then you find your way involved

involved in political plots in the future. Ryan, the, Ryan Redwine who started this season of television as the Lord Commander was a notoriously shitty hand to the king and was- Couldn't last a year. Didn't make it a year. And then got eaten by crustaceans on the beach. So they just put him back on the Kingsguard. Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Great work. If you,

One last thing before we go on this note, and I just want to say rewatching this episode, it's like feast for the eyes. There's a lot going on. But actually my favorite shot

and maybe performance, is from Risa Fonz's Otto Hightower right before he goes into Viserys to tell him this. It's a slightly overhead shot of him, and it's just him weighing, like, is this the move? Is this the move? What's the move here? And the look on his face when he gets fired, and he's like, that wasn't the move. That was a move I chose poorly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

I really love that. The only other thing I was going to say is just the Bracken Blackwood dispute for book readers. Great to see on the screen. What a treat. It's interesting. I mean, like that was the original, that was the kid and the other guy. Yeah. Yeah. Those guys worked out their differences. We were produced by Steve Allman today, as always. And it was wonderful to talk to the two of you, Joanna and Mallory. You can hear them on Tuesday on House of R doing a deep dive into

Just hide your kids for that one. Or don't, because apparently there are no rules. You can listen to The Watch on Sunday nights as well. And we'll be back next week with episode five. It was great chatting with you.

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