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Hello, my name is Dave Gonzalez, and I haven't read any of the books in George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire. I'm Joyna Robinson. I've read every book in George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire. And I'm Neil Miller, and I have also read all of those books. We are headed back to Westeros to cover the Game of Thrones spinoff series, House of the Dragon. We'll be answering your questions, so send us a raven at trialbycontent at gmail.com. Take some bread and salt and join us Thursdays on the Trial by Content feed, and don't worry, you're safe. The Reigns of Castamere hasn't even been written yet.
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Hello and welcome to Talk the Thrones. My name is Chris Ride. I am an editor at TheRinger.com. I'm joined as I always am on Sunday Night Lights by senior Ringer staff writer Joanna Robinson and The Ringer's own white stag Mallory Rubin. What's up?
Malory just turned around gracefully like a white stag should to get on mic. Only a couple of us here tonight have blood splattered through our blonde hair. I'm not going to say who it is. You'll have to watch the video to find out. What an episode of House of the Dragon, the third one, third episode. And we're going to break it down for you here on Talk of the Thrones. Joanna, Malory, so lovely to see both of you. Chris, it's a joy and a privilege to be here with you both. Though I have to say...
I came here to hunt, not to be suffocated by all this fucking politicking. Too bad, bro. Yeah, it's too bad. You shouldn't have been the king then. You could have just been a hunter. We'll get into Viserys, his drinking problem, his hunting problem, his air problem, all the problems that Viserys is facing in this episode of House of the Dragon. But I wanted to kind of ask you both to start with because big set piece ending to this episode.
Quite exciting stuff, both from a team perspective and an individual performer perspective. There's a lot of other things happening in this episode, though. So, Joanne, I'll start with you. What was the most important thing that happened in this episode of...
House of the Dragon, because I think that thrilling and important might be different things. Yeah, so it's like three quarters, you know, King's Landing, politicking, and then one quarter stepstone, if that, right, is sort of the balance of the episode. So I would say, like, a handful of conversations that Viserys has are the most... Like, this is a real Viserys, Paddy Considine episode, and he was fantastic in it. And I think that is the main focus, which, like...
Through our conversations about Thrones over the years, listening to you guys talk about it, joining you in conversations, I know that we like the conversations and the dialogue and the rich character stuff a bit more than the dragon spectacle. But I'm wondering if they felt like they needed the dragon spectacle to capture the larger audience here. Mal, what do you think?
Most important thing in this episode, you know, I'm tempted to say that the most important thing for our guy, Andy Greenwald, is the introduction of Jason Lannister. Because I know how much he loves when we just get a regular, a regular old 2022 name in the land of Ice and Fire. He loves a random Brian thrown in there with everybody else. Yeah. And for me personally, you know, I'm sorely tempted to say the
highly anticipated introduction of harwin break bones strong yes let's go break that bed frame together harwin but the actual answer i think can you actually just what what are you talking about like i know who you're talking about it's lionel's son but like why is that just like a personal fetish of yours or was that guy actually relevant i don't know that i would call it a fetish i think he's a you know a handsome lad uh strapping have we met him the seven kingdoms he was in
in this episode. This is our intro. Yeah, we get to meet both Harwin and Lara Strong, both sons of Lyle Stronger in this episode. We had a lot of new characters. Tylan and Jason Lannister. It's great stuff. The actual answer to your question, Chris, we'll find a way to bring up Harwin more later, I assure you. I promise. He's
I agree with Joanna's pick, and I would say inside of that, specifically Viserys assuring, going out of his way to assure Rhaenyra that he will maintain her as heir.
that she will not be supplanted. That is the most consequential moment of the episode. Yeah, that scene had some real Arrested Development narrator. He didn't vibes to that scene. Without skipping ahead or knowing anything about it, I just felt like that was not the punctuation mark at the end of the sentence that Vernera might have thought it was. You know, Joe, I wanted to just, before we get into the episode recap, hit on something you mentioned there, which is the balance of this show between the
The conversations in rooms that essentially create policy and create the world that we see versus these huge sort of action set pieces that Game of Thrones as a whole has become known for. And I actually thought what Greg Utanis did this week with getting these folks out of the cold chamber room
like sort of palace rooms and out in the world and getting on the hunt, walking around the forest, looking for some stags, having some drinks, you know, like they have like a pop-up restaurant out there. That's great. I love to see the culinary wrinkles that they're throwing, but it was just, this episode felt like it was set in a world and not on a set.
with a bunch of like sort of palace rooms. Would you agree with that? Yeah, and from like an adaptive point of view, like we've been talking a lot about how Fire and Blood is this sort of like bare bone text. And the hunt that we see in this episode is pure show invention. So shout out to the writers as well for coming up with like a big set, like ish set piece of
for them to put all this politicking in because the line from the book, as far as I can tell, that's closest, like close enough to this is Viserys is a man of peace during these years in King's Landing. And there was an endless round of feast balls and tourneys where mummers, Chris Ryan's favorite word, mummers and singers heralded the birth of a new Targaryen princeling. That's the only line. And so then someone in the writer's room was like, let's do a hunt. Let's do all this. And so, you know, shout out to the writer's room. But
But I completely agree that I loved this widening of the world. And I, too, would like marble columns in my tents when I go camping. Yeah, I thought that the successionization idea here, like where you're like every episode has like a gathering to warrant why all these people are in the same room together was really sharp. When do you think Viserys will bring the family onto his yacht? Yeah.
And which one of these characters will have a toe fungus? Yeah. That's a good question. Why don't we get into the plot recap? How about that? Because I think that's why, you know, I am the keeper of the text here. And I know all and I see all when I'm watching these episodes. Joe may have referred to these as bare bones text. But to me, I can see it in technicolor, you know? The three-eyed Ryan. That's right. Three-eyed Ryan. Yeah.
It is three years. We jump three years ahead, three years after episode two, and the crab feeder is still burning up the stepstones. He's given fits to the collected forces of Corlys and Daemon, the latter of whom is flying around on a dragon with little tangible results. I want to get to that. Dragons, are we sure they're good? If all you have to do is just hide in a cave...
What's the sort of benefit of air superiority? Great question. Anyway, Dame primarily wants a one-on-one with the crab feeder and he threatens to feed him to his own crabs. But he is going to have to wait almost 62 minutes of episode time to get that. We find out that Viserys has a two-year-old son named Aegon. Otto and others are plotting to have the little boy named Air. Rhaenyra would love to skip this name day celebration that pretty much
Takes up most of the episodes, but gets cajoled into doing it by Alicent, who she, I would describe as tolerating, but maybe not vibing with. Isn't sending her out of sight, but is like, fine, you're my queen, but you're not my pal. We can get into their relationship a little bit later. Rhaenyra is being bandied about at this, I don't know, what do you call it? A feast? This name day hunt feast? Yeah.
She's being basically shopped by multiple people to multiple suitors.
including the aforementioned Jason Lannister, who I'm sure is going to make some lady really happy one day and her own and her own toddler half brother, courtesy of auto, which even for like a Jamie Searcy shipper, like myself was really, you know what? Like the car started to rattle a little bit. We may have to turn around. Uh,
Meanwhile, she seems pretty into Sir Kristen, her, her Kings guard, uh, at the hunt pre party for Agon's naming. I guess that's what that was. Viserys is getting completely faded and increasingly vexed over the course of the day until he drunkly tells Alison in front of a bonfire that he is a dreamer and once had a vision of a boy wearing a crown. And that's why he kept trying for a son, thus killing his wife. Uh, Viserys takes part in a pretty fixed hunt where,
We're basically hold down a deer for him to kill in search of a legendary white stag. And then he winds up killing like a trap deer and doesn't really seem to feel that great about it. Meanwhile, Rhaenyra and Kristen kill a boar and that really bonds them together. She gets splattered with blood, which is a very cool look to me. You can make of that what you will about what that's foreshadowing. And then after the hunt, Viserys does three things. He offers to help his brother win the war in the Stepstones.
He agrees to let his daughter marry for love, and he swears to her that he is not looking to replace her on the throne. I would say that many of those things, there's only three, several of those things were incepted by Allison. It's worth noting that she is still working the phones there. In the Stepstones, Daemon humbly rejects Viserys' offer and goes fucking hero ball against an entire army, luring out the crab feeder's forces into a dragon bath
and cutting the crab guy in half, thus ending that dude's dialogue-free three-episode run on House of the Dragon. I thought he was going to be the bit bad of the show. He is not. He is now half a man. So, thus ends this episode.
Where should we start? Should we just start at the beginning? I mean, I think that there was a lot happening here. Joe, we got ourselves another episode about visions. I think let's do a little thematic work here. Viserys outs himself as a dreamer. I was hoping that you could kind of tell me a little bit about what seems like a pretty important revelation on his part.
If I had to guess, I would imagine the audience to whom he was talking was almost as important as the dream itself. He was talking to Allison. Yeah, I think that's really important. We heard a bit from Viserys in the first episode about his dreams. He talked to Emma about them and that he had a dream.
that he laid his child on the Iron Throne, that he was convinced it was going to be a boy. So we already knew this. Viserys already knew this. But now Alicent knows this. And I couldn't really, as is often the case with Alicent, because she's kind of inscrutable is her thing, right? And so I couldn't really fully read her reaction. But this is information that she has now in the old Hightower Bank.
But I think, you know, to reiterate something we said before, this idea of how important dreams are to the Targaryens, they saved them from the doom of Valyria because one of the Targaryens, Dany's the dreamer, had a dream and they got out of Dodge before it erupted. So, you know, the Targaryens really prized these dreams. We learned about Aegon's dream, the Song of Ice and Fire. Ever heard of it? Like in the first episode? But I think what's important is we were talking about this last week that Aegon
Viserys is not a dragon rider. He's a Targaryen without a dragon. And so I feel like I'm wondering if maybe his identity as a dreamer, if he's like, if my dream is real, if I'm actually a dreamer, then I'm still a legitimate Targaryen in some way, even if I'm not a dragon rider. And so that's something that I was thinking about as he was talking about this. But throughout it all,
And this is key to Viserys' personality, is this uncertainty. What if I was wrong to name Rhaenyra? He says, what if I was wrong? And there's five different ways you could read that. What if I was wrong about the dream? What if I was wrong about what I did with Emma? What if I was wrong about Rhaenyra? And it's constantly...
the space that he lives in, the space between two stabbings of a stag, basically, is just sort of like, I don't know what to do. What do I do here? I don't know. Mel, what do you think? Did I miss anything on the dream front? No, I think that was a beautiful and apt read and summation. I was struck as well by his framing of
Many in my line have been dragon riders. Very few among us have been dreamers. What is the power of a dragon against the power of prophecy? And that would be not only, as you're saying, a way to latch on to this sense of stature and purpose as a Targaryen and a Targaryen ruler and leader, but after Balerion died and he no longer had a dragon, but actually as a superior ruler.
Targaryen as something even rarer and the stake setting that that establishes and how that, how that helps to fuel one of our favorite themes to track and stories and discuss Joe, this idea of like self-fulfilling prophecies and the weight of a prophecy and what could be lost in the pursuit of it. And that's why it's so interesting to hear him say, you know, my obsession killed Rhaenyra's mother and the way that his guilt and his doubt is
are so inextricable from his desire. That is a really fascinating brew of motivation and purpose for his character. And I think it connects to a lot of what happens just inside of this specific episode with the stag and all of this discussion among many characters of portents and being blessed by the gods. This sense of some sort of omen and a harbinger for his reign, his line is ever present for his character.
Yeah, I... You know, it was interesting to watch Viserys try to break down what his dream meant as he was talking about it to Alyson and then watch... You know, Joe, you mentioned that she's somewhat inscrutable. I would agree. I mean, I was kind of putting myself in her shoes where I was like, well...
On one hand, what does this mean for my son? On one hand, what does this mean for my husband? And on one hand, what does this mean for my once best friend? You know, and what do I want out of any of those three options? You know, is this Viserys saying...
look, I may have called this shot with Rhaenyra, but the truth is that now I have a son and that would fulfill this dream that I had. And Targaryens are usually right to listen to their dreams because that's exactly how we saved this family in the first place and set up this dynasty. And on the other hand, if you're Alicent, you're like,
I mean, she later has that conversation with Otto where she's like, what mother wouldn't want her son to be king? But she doesn't actually even seem to believe it when she's talking to him. He's like, don't you want your son to be king? And she's like, sure, what mother wouldn't? And it's like, well, what mother would? I mean, it seems like it's a pretty hard job. And she's seeing firsthand what it's doing to Viserys. He's essentially decaying in front of her, both emotionally or psychologically, but also physically. I just thought it was a really cool scene and
They really love to have these important talks in front of fire, whether it's candles or bonfires. Targaryens love their fire. I thought that the imagery was beautiful. And Mallory, just to jump to another vision, I thought almost like it wasn't a vision in terms of its description of this is like a dream I had. But I thought that that shot of...
Rhaenyra sitting on her horse at this sort of cliff's edge almost, blood all over her hair. It felt like that was a baptism or a graduation of some kind. And she sort of had moved into a new kind of era of her life. She's looking over this, essentially like this center of power where all these people have gathered to decide all these things.
And she looks over and sees this mythical creature that is supposed to be the subject of this hunt. Can you help me unpack the importance of that message? Because I feel like Gregory Tanis, the director, definitely wanted us to think, hey, take a second here and look at both the beauty and the importance of this moment. Yeah, absolutely. I think this is great.
crucial to assessing Rhaenyra's state of mind and the dynamics among the characters. I love the way that you set it up as a baptism for a few reasons, you know, the fire and blood language house words of House Targaryen, but also the way that Rhaenyra throughout the episode is cast apart and
And she voices this like in really devastating fashion multiple times. Nobody's here for me. She feels that everybody has moved on both inside of her family and in the realm at large.
And to contrast the, in essence, play acting that is going on with Viserys and the hunt, where, as you noted, you have not only the huntsmen, but all of these other men of the realm almost securing the stage setting that he needs to strike this ultimately farcical blow. And I think we should talk more about the Viserys aspect of this in a second. And
That blood is on Rhaenyra because she, and obviously Kristen strikes the initial blow with the sword, but she takes that dagger and drives it into the boar time and time again. And again, we have this like passive active point of contrast with Rhaenyra and Viserys. But then within that, you have this real interesting dissonance and nuance for Rhaenyra herself because the decision to let the white stag go is...
I think, a sign of real restraint. But it doesn't, to me, signal that she has moved on from her willful nature. We hear Viserys in this episode call her a heedless contrarian, which is now a turn of phrase I will be adopting in my own life. I thought that was so funny. It's a decision that she makes in a way out of despair, but also out of wisdom, because she could...
strike that creature down and bring it to camp and say, you all doubted me, but look, I was the one the white heart appeared for. I was the one who slayed it. She's not interested in playing the high Lord's games. This, this, this degree of standing above them and observing from afar that you noted, Chris, I think is really crucial. And if we pan back even further and just look at the symbol of the stag, I think it's important to talk about that for a second, both of,
across folklore, religion, storytelling, and mass, but also inside of Thrones lore because, of course, the stag is the sigil of House Baratheon. I think it's worth noting that one of the earliest times we as readers and viewers come across a stag is the symbolism of the antler in the dire wolf, this idea of wolf and stag tearing each other down. Like, the appearance...
of the stag of an animal in this text is often symbolic in terms of like what sign we are supposed to glean, what it might mean for the characters in their future. It's certainly not accidental. There's a real pattern there. The hunt that King Robert died on when the boar claimed him, he set out in pursuit of a white heart, of the white stag, this king of the king's wood, as we hear the huntsman say in this episode. This is a symbol of
transformation, of course, strength, vitality, regeneration, rebirth. But the white stag in particular, this aspect of purity, but also this herald of a quest, that's a really exciting thing inside of a fantasy story when you see that. And so what does it mean to have the restraint to not pursue? That is such a distinction for Rhaenyra compared to the other characters. The entire time they're trying to set up
this scenario, which Viserys can easily kill this deck. They're like, we've trapped it, we've cornered it, we're going to tie it down, all you have to do is show up, use the ceremonial Lannister spear, you know, all this stuff. And she just finds it. She's got... It finds her. Yeah, and it finds her. So, Jo, I mean, did you think that that had...
Should I be like putting a lot on that? Just the fact that they've, this thing that's essentially like fixed and orchestrated, but for Rhaenyra, it's like, it just comes naturally. I would. I, you know, I would say, I would say that that anoints her as some sort of more natural leader. But I think, you know, to Yessi and Mallory's point, I think if you look at,
how Viserys approaches a kill, how Rhaenyra approaches a kill, and how Daemon approaches a kill in this episode. Like, these are the three approaches that they're asking us to compare and contrast. And I think with Viserys and Rhaenyra specifically, it's like Viserys...
This is killing for sport. And it's so clear, you know, especially the way that they tie that stag down. It's for sport and it's clumsily done. She's only killing when she... She will kill if she has to for survival. Right. But she's not going to kill for sport. She said before the hunt. She doesn't even want to go on the hunt. She doesn't like the sound that boars make when they die. It sounds like children screaming. She's like, I'm not interested. The cut from that to Aegon squealing was so bad.
funny. Shout out the royal nanny in this episode, by the way, who was like, oh my God. But yeah, I think that contrast is really interesting. And then when we get to Stepstones later, I guess we can talk about. But Damon's main killing happens off screen, which I think is really wild in this episode. Yeah, we'll address that.
Yeah, I think like the lines that we hear from from Otto, your grace. But if the gods did wish to show their favor, it is just openly discussed across this episode that the white heart is a symbol to bless Aegon on his name day to bless him as the chosen one. And it doesn't show up for him and it doesn't show up for Saris. It shows up for Rhaenyra.
I was curious to ask you both how you read Viserys' response to seeing the brown stag. It may not be white your grace, but he's a big lad. And this real crestfallen response. Now, obviously, our guy is multiple flagons deep at this point and has had himself quite a stretch. He's having an experience on the hunt and he's not in a cheerful mood. If we tie this into the earlier discussion about
the dreamer and the way that he thinks about signs importance. Did you read this as, okay, this is another sign that did not pan out the way that I or others thought it would, that did not bear the fruit I had come to expect or expect or was hoping for? Or did you read it as perhaps relief that
The stag had not come to bless Aegon because he would have then lost control even more of the ability to fend off the you-must-name-him-your-heir pursuits of Otto, Jason, etc.,
If I'm being really honest, I read it as wine exhaustion, but I will definitely go back and rewatch it to look for the nuances in Patty's performance. I read it as this being King sucks, you know, and that all day long, I've got people in my ear trying to tell me who my daughter should marry, who my son should marry, what I should do with this, that or the other thing, how I should relate to my brother, what I should do about this war and the stepstones I didn't want in the first place.
Now I have to go on this fucking hunt. They can't even find the right deer. This one's tied down and it's kind of pathetic because I've got to take this guy's spear who's just a blowhard. And I'd be like, okay, dude, thanks for the spear. And now I have to go sadly kill this beast who is like standing there. And he's like, I,
I think in terms of his own virility and his own like life expectancies, he like, I can't even kill a tied down stag. Right. Absolutely. It took me two tries. And the guy had to be like, try over the left a little bit. Yeah. So in general, I think when he finally says to Lionel at that point where he's just like, let me guess, you want, you want Rainier to marry your son, right? Like what? And he's like, no, I gave you advice and you didn't take it.
It's like that breaking point where he's like, being king is kind of the worst. So that was my read on that whole thing. Yeah, I think that the smaller aspect of how he's reading the symbolism of it, I was curious about. But I think broadly, that's absolutely true. There was something so...
about the entire scene, the way they clap for him as he walks away. Peak embarrassment was the clapping. Oh my God. And like we see later when he and Allison are in his chambers talking about the Stepstones letter, the two fingers, gone. This happened off screen in the massive three-year time jump between episodes. These pieces of this are falling away over time and how much
is there for him to hold on to. And to your point, Chris, I think that connects really nicely to that, that
back and forth he had with Jason Lannister and how absolutely offended he was by the gall of this blonde lion coming to him and talking about enhancing his strength. It's like, frankly, how dare you? But then later in privacy with Rhaenyra, it's like, go shirt up. We have to think about how we can be strong. Last episode, he talked about the vulnerability of the line. So that is constantly on his mind. He just can't allow other people to see it.
Joe, speaking of vulnerability. Yeah. I think I needed a step stones. A little help here. Yeah. So,
Not only, like, do I... I really want to talk about, like, the mechanics of that battle scene, which I think were, if I may say so, about, like, 80% successful as, like, the way it was depicted on screen. Like, it was certainly cool. The vibe was there. There were some great shots. I thought Matt Smith was cool. I was also like, how did all these guys...
Like, where was the conversation about, like, here's what I'm going to do. You guys follow me. I know that was sort of the plan. I didn't know who was on the dragon for a minute. So I have some questions about that. But just in general, it's been three years. I thought it was funny that Viserys is like, it's been three years. I think we can wait one more day, like, you know, for me to help him. And I guess I'm curious about, like,
What is the fight about? Who is Crabfeeder working for? What is Crabfeeder trying to get out of this pretty craggly group of rocks out there? Yeah, I mean, mainly the...
It's a question of location, location, location, right? That the stepstones are in the way of the trade route. And that if you take the stepstones, which the triarchy, which we talked about last week, like a collection of three free cities. If they take the stepstones, they can, it's sort of like Monopoly. They can then tax all the ships that come along.
you know, past the stepstones, right? So they're... At first, they're just taxing the ships and that's fine. And then they start doing some bullshit. And what we hear from, like, the ladies mid-sentence, the ladies who are gathered in the hunting tent, you just barely hear them say something about Lady Joanna Swan. And this is a lady, a highborn woman, who is snatched off one of these ships by the crab feeder and his people. And...
made to work in a pillow house, basically sex traded over into Essos. I hate that. You know, and so it started with taxation. Now it's become outright piracy. And so I don't think they're interested in encroaching on Westeros anytime soon. They're not going to fight the dragon lords on their own turf, but they're like this little spy
we can squeeze and Corlys who is his fortunes built on trade Corlys is like this is not for me so it's not how right like a rebellion against the Targaryens necessarily it's just like we want these shipping lanes it's and we're kind of it's an affront yeah it's an affront certainly yeah
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Should we just talk about this whole stepson situation in entirety now? Okay. You're a big crab feeder guy, so how are you feeling? You had to say goodbye so soon. Bummed out. Bummed out. Without a word. Without a word. Just a rapidly spreading grayscale. He obviously has grayscale. He's got the complete devotion of his men, so I imagine there's some inspiring speeches somewhere in there? What's the sort of payoff there for guys working for the crab feeder? It's not...
It's not like, well, you know, I just love my boss. I would do anything for him, you know? Like, I'll be curious to see, you know, we're recording this, obviously, before the episode drops. I'll be really curious to see how people respond to the abrupt end of the crab feeder and, like, the stepstones, you know, wrapping up-ish the way it feels like it is. Release the crab feeder cut? You think that's about to start trending? But I think that...
We can lay some of this on like on marketing, marketing, ramping up expectations and every trailer, the crab feeder looks cool. So in every trailer we see the crab feeder, like, and I think again to the early question of like spectacle versus conversations is,
Maybe they felt like they needed a battle episode early. This is Miguel Sapochnik, at least in the first season, Kosher running the show. He's a battle episode, famed battle episode guy. They're like, we got dragons. Let's show them what dragons can do. And so I feel like the Stepstones is sort of amped up in a way. There's...
There's this line in Fire and Blood that George R.R. Martin writes, it's not our purpose here to recount the details of the private war Damon Targaryen and Corlys Velaryon waged on the Stepstones. So there are no details. That's it. It's like a pair, it's a graph. So isn't this almost now a microcosm of like,
what happens when you go off book kind of a little bit like this. I thought that the battle scene here had a little bit of the mechanics of some late Thrones battle scenes where you're just like, oh, so you guys were right behind him. Okay. You know, like, well, I think on the one hand, like,
It's of a piece with the opportunity of adapting Fire and Blood because there's a lot of room to explore and expand. I do think, though, as Joe said, if you have read Fire and Blood, it was it was a little strange and surprising in the early episodes to see him propped up as a figure of consequence because that's just not.
How it bears out. I mean, he's killed by Damon. Shout out that close-up shot of Dark Sister that we got in this episode with the dragon wings as the hilt. Incredible stuff. The death occurring off-screen is such a bummer to me.
But there's barely any more detail in the book. The line is, in 108 AC, when at last he came face to face with Kragus Crabfeeder, he slew him single-handed and cut off his head with Dark Sister. So... That's it. I think that for me, more of the...
timeline confusion about the battle and the war of the stepstone, the war for the stepstone specifically was like where I felt a little out of sync inside of the episode. And, you know, we talked last week about how will people hang with the jumps between episodes? And this is obviously a much larger one than the one, the six months between episodes one and two going three years is no joke. And I felt like, oh man,
The stuff we're getting in this episode, like all of the stuff in King's Landing, which accounts for, in essence, 45 minutes of this episode. It's the bulk of it. I loved. I thought it was fantastic. But I still couldn't help but think, boy, I would have loved to see Rhaenyra's face at Viserys and Alicent's wedding. Those are the moments that we're missing and that we just are not... What was their first conversation like? Exactly. Has Rhaenyra ever asked Alicent, what the hell? Yeah. You know?
Or she's just been listening to that guy play the same song by the tree for like three years. Samwell, crushing it. Crushing it out there in the God's world. That one Nymeria song on repeat for three years. Play a new slang again. I love that one. Go put it back.
Not into the shuffle feature out under the shade of the weirwood. But, you know, in Thrones, so much of the really compelling stuff that we love comes from seeing the fallout, the immediate fallout and consequences of how characters have to contend with the decisions that they've made. With the Stepstones, it was just like, what exactly has happened when? And...
I would say that Lenore Valerian and Seasmoke is emblematic of this to me because on the one hand, it's really cool to see Lenore as a dragon rider. It's awesome to see Seasmoke. Chris, I'm sure you, a scholar,
of dragon lore and aesthetics. You're like, here's a third dragon. A new one. I got that they were related. I definitely found that whole sequence confusing and was like, I didn't know that this dude could ride a dragon. Well, so that's what I was going to say because I...
You know, we hear dragons plural multiple times throughout the episode. We hear it from Tyland when he's recounting the crisis to Viserys. We hear it at the War Council down in the Stepstones from the Sea Snake from Lenore. So it's clear there's more than one dragon already in the mix. But like, I want to see him more.
claim, claim Seasmoke. I want to see their bond. I want to know that he's a dragon rider. Now I go back to episode two in my mind and think of Rhaenyra's line about, you know, send us, you have dragon riders. Right. Was, was Lenore and Seasmoke in the mix? Then we don't know. We know from book canon that as far back as the great council and one Oh one ACE AC, he had already bonded with and paired with Seasmoke and,
and it was a part of his claim, he just hadn't written him yet. Now the timeline for those characters has all changed drastically. Those are the sorts of things that I want to have definitively established for us in the show. I also leave the steps and I'm just like, does Damon have greyscale now because he's holding the craft feeder's hand and is covered in his blood? So that's concerning to me. I have a lot of questions about that. But just from a TV watching, not even from a lore perspective, from a TV watching perspective, if I'm watching a battle episode...
In this battle, we've got Daemon, who theoretically we care whether he lives or dies. We've got Corlys. Great. We've got his brother Vaemond Velaryon, who like we've literally only barely just met. And he's just popping off. He's just like, I just disagree with everything going on here. Yeah. I will say, I think it supports Mallory's idea last week that like,
that felt like younger brother energy to me, younger brother, older brother. So when last week Corliss Valarian says, we are second sons to Mallory's point that he was speaking metaphorically, not literally. But, and then, and then his son Lenore, who again, we saw a younger actor play him at the tourney. We literally saw him. They talk about him a bit in this episode as, you know, perspective suitor, et cetera, but we don't know him at all.
And so those are the three people I'm supposed to be invested in in this battle. And for a successful battle, like if you think about Miguel Sapochnik's, I think most successful battle episode, which is Hardhome, they did work in that episode to get me to care about complete randos, complete rando wildlings, only to then quickly kill them off. But I cared that they died because I met them and I got to know them. And I would have loved a little bit more emotional buy-in
on someone like Lenore, so I care that he's, you know, gonna be okay. He's doing this. I also just think we're supposed to really, like, buy in to Damon and Corliss. We care about them as characters. We're supposed to think that they're badasses. They can't figure out how to...
get this guy out of the cave and kill Viserys's letter and cites this, you will not rescue me. I wanted your attention, but I won't let you be the one who saves me versus Vos. That's what I was going to ask, is like, Daemon's reaction to that letter. Do you think that he's learning to just be like, if I can't inspire these people, I'm going to scare them? So when they send help, I'm going to beat this guy to death and then go do it myself? Like, I mean, is this like,
Is this for theater or is it because he can't control his temper? That felt like a temper tantrum. Poor, poor Sir Allen. Yeah, poor Sir Allen. How did you both as huge Damon fans feel about him putting up a white flag?
and then killing everyone. Are we in full-on Walder Frey rat cook violating guest rights territory with our guy, David Darko? Is there a crab feeder? Is there a lot of rules and regulations? Yeah. Wow. So that's how your moral compass goes. If you're wearing someone else's face on your face, I think that all bets are off.
Wave as many flags as you want at this time. Well, I think, you know, to what you just said, Molly, which makes me think of the great Kim Wexler from Better Call Saul line, you don't save me, I save me, sort of thing. Like, that's the vibe coming off Damon. It's also the vibe coming off of Rhaenyra. Thanks for the stab of the boar, Kristen Cole. I'll take it from here, man. You know, and I think there's a lot...
In terms of the stepstones, I think the main takeaways from what we saw here are like, A, how impractical and imprecise dragon battle is. We get that from the guy at the beginning who's like, yay, my prince is here to save me. And then he gets fucking wrecked. Stepped on by a dragon. That was iconic. Fabulous, right? So like, so dragon battle...
not very precise, can take out the very people who you're theoretically trying to save. Number one, classic Targaryen. Now I need to, I need to see Damon in a Kim Wexler ponytail. Like I just, someone out there has to do it for us. I think he could rock it. I really do. With a curly key right in the end. Yeah. Um,
Love that. And then also like the fact that they both, you know, you're talking about blonde wigs needing blood rinse out of them. Both Damon and Rhaenyra wind up spattered in blood. And I think it's just we're supposed to understand this affinity between uncle and niece. Once again, just as we got at Dragonstone last week, this sort of parallel. That was not awesome. I definitely felt like...
You know, I think we could cycle back, because you mentioned Rhaenyra a little bit. The dating game is really going, like, Rhaea is really rocking for her this episode. Yeah. Why don't we jump in with two feet and just talk a little bit about Otto trying to hook her up with a two-year-old, who is also her half-brother? I'm just going to say this. Sure. This is in the running for the funniest scene in the history of Game of Thrones.
I was cackling so hard I almost broke a rib. This was so fantastically acted. The way that Otto initially leans in conspiratorially when he's about to reveal his big plan and then the pause, the near minute of silence from Viserys as he is trying to glean whether Otto is serious and then the way that he looks over and we see Aegon just wailing on the floor.
Lord. It was absolutely priceless. And then he actually laughs out loud. He actually laughs out loud. He's just so shocked by this. Even in the context of the Targaryens wedding brother and sister, even in the context of the Sarah strolling through the gardens last week with a 12 year old. This is so astounding that the King cackles aloud.
in the face of his hand and I was cackling with him. It's amazing. Patty completely crushing this episode. Every opportunity. So good in this episode. So good. My favorite piece of acting in this episode and the thing that I really like, it took me about 20 minutes after it ended to kind of get through all my feelings on it is whether or not it's the first time Recyphens has ever clapped. I don't know if you guys noticed that.
Oh my God, I need to rewatch it immediately. But when he, when Viserys arrives at the like feast part, I'm just going to, you guys can't see it if you're listening on the pod, but like this is how he claps.
He's got like... Like a loud golf clap? It's like he's got a prosthetic left hand and he's just like, I can just hit it. And that's kind of like clapping. But I mean, he's Welsh. I'm sure he's cheered for stuff before. But like, you know, it was wild. I wonder what the direction was. I got a little far afield. I have a question for you, Chris. Say you're on Raya. I love my wife, by the way. Happily married. But go ahead. And...
a profile a profile pops up and the and the and the first line of the profile is i'd do anything for my queen or lady white are you how are you swiping on jason lannister for me personally yeah yeah yeah would that work on you i mean i think that guy has a really nice house you know like i mean castler rock seems pretty cool right it was like and and uh
He's got spears everywhere. He knows how to throw a party. Is that his setup out there? Is he kind of like, I'm hosting? I mean, he straight up had a maitre d' with champagne waiting for people when they were walking around. Like honey wine. Which when you're on the front face indicates to me that tasted like shit, by the way. Right.
I think so, because earlier in the episode, Sir Lionel's like, Sir Jason, like, Lord Jason is waiting for us to assemble here. So I do think Jason threw that party. I thought it was cool. You know, like bonfire. A lot of boar. A lot of boar. Yeah. Plenty of wine. It almost looked like they had central air. Like, it was a pretty nice setup. Yeah.
And if you wanted to leave and go do your own thing, you could always take Sir Kristen and go camping if you wanted to. So I would have been pretty into Jason. Speaking of Kristen Cole and Raya, Mallory Rubin, would Kristen Cole be allowed on Raya? That's the question. Yeah, so Chris, I know you're invested in Kristen's...
Betrothal prospects, especially after hearing him say to Rhaenyra, I had an adventurous youth, a.k.a. I had a ton of sex. A ton of sex. Why? Is he supposed to be a virgin if he's going to marry Rhaenyra? No one is surprised. No, he is a sworn knight of the Kingsguard now, which means that he has taken vows. He cannot marry. He cannot father children. So I'm sorry to break your heart here.
Well, this is a world where like two twins jam it out every night. Like we can't just break the Kingsguard vows. A two year old is someone who's had a vow of chastity. I have questions. What I will say is no one would formally propose this as a possibility. I really hope this is not the breakout segment, by the way. Yeah, that's the headline. Two twins jamming it out. Twins jamming it out. Yeah. Yeah.
It's definitely what we're going to run with. But I think also like before that, like, you know, what he says after he talks about all the fucking that he did as a youth is like, I would have never been able. I was never high enough for a formal betrothal. So like even, you know, even if you weren't sworn to the Kingsguard, he's too way too low born. Right. For anyone. He's like doing what makes you happy. Yeah. Just do what you mean. All your heart. I'm pulling for those two. Find the one that pleases you. Yes. As I did.
What a future that sets up. Your mom. Yeah, your best friend who's 17 now. I loved that when he was talking about Emma and how she made him a man. And again, we've already mentioned how well acted this episode was, but every time he talks about Emma, the absolute despair that is emanating from him is just so, so sad.
Oh, should we talk about some of the other suitors, though? Because that's not it. We have to talk about Lionel Strong coming in again with his unencumbered opinion. Lionel is like so clutch. I don't know why Viserys is like, oh, yeah, Otto is really just such wise counsel. Like Lionel every time is nice. He's right. Yeah.
And he's like, you're the king though. So you make the call. He's very steady and wise. I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that he was the biggest proponent of we will absolutely not even consider the idea of a woman on the Iron Throne in episode one. Let us protect the patriarchy and the sacred law of the land. And also was the one who said famously, infamously, she will mature on Alpha.
I was not nominating him for a Kennedy Center honors. I was just saying, I thought those guys go. I enjoy his, his, his measured and thoughtful. And he's one of the people who, especially as you know, Viserys voices in this, in this episode with that fucking politicking line, he is so frustrated. He says later to Alison, he feels like he's doomed to forever anger one person in pursuit of making another person happy, which frankly, the fact that he's worried about that at all is, is an indictment and part of why he's not fit for this role. That's not something that you,
can think about or worry about if you're king. You have to have the conviction of your decisions. But it is on his mind, and so many people are trying to maneuver him. It was interesting and cool to see him push back a little bit on Otto in this episode. But with Lionel, he does seem to have this sense that he is getting...
impartial, sound advice. Now, there's no such thing really in the realm as impartial, but I liked that the setup for that exchange was Viserys saying, let me guess, your son, Harwin, Breakbones, you think he's the one? Because that's just what he's expecting from everyone now. And so for Lionel to be able to say no was a refreshing thing for Viserys. And he had that little shoulder tap, you know, a tap of the chest. Wait, Harwin's not the guy with the
The foot though, right? That's Laris. Laris. That's Laris Clubfoot. His other son. That's Joanna's favorite strong boy is Laris. Let's hear about Laris. What's up with him? So, yeah. So there's Lionel Strong. These are the Strongs of Harrenhal, right? So there's Lionel Strong, his older son Harwin, Breakbones Strong. He's the strongest man. And then Laris. Breakbones. Yeah, Breakbones. Have you ever heard a cooler nickname, Chris? Thanks, George.
And then Laris, who we see sort of sit down with the ladies and say he's not made for the hunt. But the thing about Laris is...
is that he loves to listen. He loves, if you've been waiting for a schemer and a plotter, like, that's maybe levels above Otto Hightower, just watch the way Laris Strong nibbles on a, like, cookie as he watches the dynamic between Rhaenyra and Alicent. Loves the hot gas. He's there, he's looking, he's listening. This is the thing, is that, like, this show is throwing so many characters at us right now.
And, you know, we're moving through time so quickly. We only have a few episodes left, really, with these characters in this visage.
It is a little bit of a challenge without having a ton of background with the story or knowing these characters or what their histories and their futures are to kind of keep everybody straight but also to know that guy's important. This person's not important. This person's going to be... This person's sticking around. Whatever. I mean, it is... I think they're trying to seed them in. I think Mallory and I are all hyped up about these people, but I think it's okay if you just barely register that they were in this episode because miles to go or whatever. But...
I guess that's why you want to listen to a three-hour deep dive on the ringer verse from Mallory and Joanna if you want to. But if you're watching more casually, I think it's just fine to, you know, barely clock that they're here and then see where we go from there. I think also, though, we do want to mention Jason's twin brother, Tylan Lannister. Yes. The Lannister love their twins. By the way, the actor playing both Jason and Tylan, Sir Hugh! Yes!
Yeah. So Hugh of the Vale from Game of Thrones. Unbelievable. But it's the same actor playing both. Tylan is now on the small council and he's master of ships, which means Corlys quit at the end of last week's episode when he stormed out of there. That was a, I quit. And so Tylan has replaced him on the small council. Okay. Right. And I think too, to the, just the vast majority
sea of people we're meeting, it can be helpful to look for the connections between character and larger plot threads. So if we take a character like Lenore Valerian, for example, who we are exposed to in a couple different ways in this episode, both of those give us something to latch onto. He is one of the presented suitors. He is the one who Lionel Strong makes the case for to Viserys, saying, in essence, I'm
I outlined for you last time why you should marry Corlys and Rhaenys' daughter. I make the same case now for their son. That's the match for Rhaenyra. Reach this divide between your houses. So we have this connection to House Velaryon and the relationship between House Targaryen and House Velaryon. Then we see him at the Stepstones, but he's a dragon rider, right?
Rhaenys, Targaryen blood in this family. Now he can ride a dragon too. House Velaryon, dragon riding. This is an amazing thing. So there are these ways to latch on to these larger through lines of the story that I think can be like helpful orienting principles. I obviously haven't seen any more of this show than we're talking about right now, but I do feel like the death of the crab feeder spectacularly so. Mark...
marks the end of a little bit of an era of this. And they have to do so much world-building, family planning, showing us these people who we're going to be with throughout their lives, really. That, you know, I just wonder whether or not
At this point, I am craving getting Matt Smith back into the mix, right? Like, it's... He is by far my favorite part of the show. I think he's giving an awesome performance. It's physical. It's charming. It's scary. It's everything you want from one of these characters. And I would love to...
integrate him back into gen pop get him back in King's Landing get him back interacting with people chatting with his cousins whatever it is that's my wish do you think sharing their tips for getting blood out of their blonde hair yeah right it's actually just baby baby shampoo you'd be surprised it just does miracles no tears no tears any other closing thoughts before we we peace out on this this third episode I
I just want to shout out, in terms of maneuvers in this episode, you mentioned Alicent and her suggestions to Viserys and her gentle maneuvering of him. I want to shout out just one moment that I really loved that came early in the episode as we think about Alicent and how she's observing and managing things.
is Tyland is like coming, Tyland Lannister, the shorter haired twin is coming at Viserys with the stepstone stuff. Viserys does not want to hear it. He's just at the buffet, slapping food on his plate. He's like, don't bother me. I'm eating. And Alison gives Tyland this little like tiny shake of the head of like, nah, not right now. And then he keeps going, but it's just this tiny, like she knows her husband very well. She knows the game very well. As we already saw, I don't,
Like, she's very supportive of Rhaenyra in this episode. I don't think she's, like, playing the game hardcore, but she knows the rules and she knows how to, how this all works, you know? Yeah, it was really interesting to hear her say to her father, like,
not only is this how you want me to really raise my son to steal his sister's birthright, but to say Rhaenyra would be a good queen. And you have these little moments where we learn it's clear that she knew about the plan to wed Jason Lannister to Rhaenyra and of course didn't tell her. They're not on speaking terms, but it's one more thing where you're like, oh, could Rhaenyra
Could someone have tried to offer up this very specific information? Viserys, one of the eruptions that he has to Rhaenyra is, I've been trying to talk to you about this and you won't let me. But then because of what we've seen from Viserys before, we're like, but what did your trying look like, really? But to the Alicent point, yeah, the amount of information that she has right now is so interesting. And our read...
on every facial expression, everything she says, the way that she guided Viserys. So many people implore him to help in the Stepstones and he won't. She's the one. She is the one who convinces him. And so that's a really interesting data point to keep in mind when we think about her at large in the story. And I thought that House Hightower at large was fascinating in this episode because we have chatted a lot through three weeks about
The way that Otto is maneuvering Alicent as a pawn in his game and deploying her to incept Viserys and get Viserys to behave the way that they want. And that happens here too. He says, you must guide Viserys toward reason. He'll never find it on his own. But what do we see before that? We see Otto experiencing his own version of that where his brother, Hobart Hightower, is
does the same thing to him. Right. He tells him that he needs to be the one to guide Viserys to naming Aegon as heir because this is, of course, what House Hightower wants for the member. Oh, that was his brother in the first scene? Yeah. Yes. We saw him swear an oath to Rhaenyra in the first episode. He's the first, like, we talked about how Otto Hightower. These guys gotta wear name tags, I swear, you know? Yeah.
There's sigils on there. I would have recognized him if maybe he did the high tower clap. Yes. Well, Chris, it's funny that you mentioned that because the other thing I was going to note about him, I was really struck by this. When they are coming out of the carriage, the carriage that is 50 times larger inside than from the outside, they're all comfortably piled into. The TARDIS. Yeah. What does he say? They're all clapping. He says, Hail, hail.
Aegon the Conqueror, babe, second of his name. And he is clapping and cheering, leading this clap and cheer.
Here's to his grace on a second name day. Joe, I'm wondering if you were as struck by this or if I'm overthinking it. Second of his name when he is not actually ruling is shocking. That is a shocking thing to say out loud. It's the name of the episode. Second of his name is the name of the episode. So yeah, like that's a wild, that's like he might as well have said King Aegon. Exactly. That's what he was saying. You reserve the naming, the, you know, the second name.
second of his name, et cetera, for when you were formally in that position. And he is not. So the gall to say that aloud in the king's presence and for all to hear was astonishing. And I think a real declaration of House Hightower's intentions. And it's like, OK, maybe they're just treating that kind of stuff differently in the show. But I don't think so, because Condal is so beholden to the rules of George's realm. And, you know, if every Aegon actually just got to be second, third, et cetera, then we'd have a whole different number. By the time we got to Jon, we'd have 500. 500.
uncrowned erasure from the story. So that can't happen. I doubt he's like, what this, what this, what this story needs is like my revisions to Georgia stuff. Uh, let's wrap it up there. I,
I thought this was a wonderful conversation. I learned so much. We've talked about clapping and dating, which is two of my favorite subjects. We'll be back next Sunday for episode four, right? I think everybody. And until then, make sure you're listening to the ringer verse podcast where you can find house of our doing a deep dive on Tuesdays.
What was the runtime of the last one? Three. You broke three, right? Yeah. Don't worry about it. Greenwald and I will be discussing this later in the week on The Watch, but I think Mallory, you're joining me on The Watch this week. I cannot wait. One of the honors of my year always to be summoned for The Watch. We'll talk a little bit about Lord of the Rings, a little bit about House of the Dragon, a little bit about industry maybe. But people who want to hear more from Joe, they get to because Trial by Content on Thursdays, Joe, Neil, and Dave...
Send your mailbags, send your ravens. There we go. You can't escape us, but, you know, we're pleasant enough people, so don't worry about it. Thank you to Mike for producing us today. We will be back next Sunday. Keep it real. We'll be right back.
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