'House of the Dragon' Episode 2 Reactions | Talk the Thrones
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Hello, my name is Dave Gonzalez, and I haven't read any of the books in George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire. I'm Joyna Robinson. I've read every book in George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire. And I'm Neil Miller, and I have also read all of those books. We are headed back to Westeros to cover the Game of Thrones spinoff series, House of the Dragon. We'll be answering your questions, so send us a raven at trialbycontent at gmail.com. Take some bread and salt and join us Thursdays on the Trial by Content feed, and don't worry, you're safe. The Reigns of Castamere hasn't even been written yet.

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Hello and welcome to Talk the Thrones. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at TheRinger.com and joining me today as always is Joanna Robinson and her pal, the crab feeder, Mallory Rubin. What's up? Oh my God. You know, I love steamed crabs, Chris. I was keeping my eyes peeled for some old bay seasoning.

Didn't see any, though. That guy seems like he's a great match for you, Mal. First of all, amazing nickname. Baltimore-centric nickname. Also great at carpentry. So handy around the house. We're going to get into a bunch of Crabfeeder stuff. This is episode two of Talk the Thrones for episode two of House of the Dragon. This one, Joanna, was called The Rogue Prince. A catchy title, but...

I was trying to decide how we should start and what would be the big takeaway from this episode. And I thought a fun way of doing that would be to rename this episode using the naming convention of the popular American sitcom Friends, which many people may be familiar with. The one with, the one where, the one when. If you were renaming this House of the Dragon as the one, Friends style, what would you call it, Jo? You mean like the one where Ross goes to the tanning booth? No, the one I would call it...

The one with the low winter sun. Oh, yeah. Maybe. Beautiful. Is what I would call it. Poetic. That bridge sequence. Like, there's a lot that goes on in this episode, but the way that that bridge sequence really underlines the advantage that the show has of adapting such a, like, slim text. Because that whole caper with Damon stealing a dragon egg is literally, like, three sentences and none of it has to do with, like,

Otto or Cyrax or Rhaenyra or any of those people going to Dragonstone. It's just like, dragon took an egg, Viserys is pissed, dragon gave, uh, uh, Daemon, sorry, let me say that again. Daemon took an egg, Viserys is pissed, Daemon gave it back, but was unhappy to do so. The end. And instead, House of the Dragon has concocted this, like, one of the most beautiful, uh,

things we've ever seen on a throne show in this bridge sequence with two massive dragons. This one got the blood flowing, right, Mallory? Like that bridge sequence really like, it's like, here we go. Okay. This is where the money went.

Stunning. Absolutely stunning. Love to see a dragon crest through the fog like a submarine emerging through the tide. Beautiful. I'm torn on whether I would call this the one with the maggots and the foot gnawing crabs or the one where we were forever scarred by hearing the exchange. She is 12. She will mature. That's awesome.

I think I already made the joke to Andy about we could have just called this how I met your father. But yeah, I mean, you could say this is the one with the second sons. This is the one with the bridge. There's lots of different ones.

Why don't I recap this episode? We try to be servicey here. And of the three of us, I think I have the firmest grip on Game of Thrones lore, character name pronunciations, and just also I kind of understand the timeline. I am sort of like, I can see it all happening. And all the names and all the different dragons and how they look different from each other. You guys can't see them in my background, but they're just literally all over my wall. All right, so this is...

notably episode two, the rogue Prince takes place six months after the first episode. And I want to talk about that in a bit, but, uh, the crab feeder continues to raid. Uh, Damon has moved to Dragonstone to set up shop and start a family and taunt his brother. And Rhaenyra is still figuring out what it means to be an heir to

While Viserys is looking for a bride to maybe give him some more options in the air department. When the small council finds out that Daemon has stolen a dragon's egg for his child to be, Viserys sends Otto to get it back after initially volunteering to go do it himself. And on that bridge, as we have just referenced, words are exchanged. And then Rhaenyra shows up on the back of a dragon, has another ambiguously charged talk with Daemon and gets the egg back.

we get a glimpse into the relationship between Daemon and Mysaria. Is that right? Am I saying that right? Mysaria? Mysaria. That's why I'm open to revising my steadfast pronunciations. You know, like Mysaria. I'm just delighted to see that you're sticking with a dragon instead of making any effort to identify which dragon. It's just not going to happen. I'm 44. You know what I mean? When those dragons start having personalities and I can be like, it's the funny one.

Braxis or whatever. Carax is the one with all the jokes. Yeah. These guys, so far they're not offering a lot. Classic zinger throwers, the dragons. Yeah, they love to laugh. They love levity. Continue. We get a glimpse into the relationship between Daemon and Massaria.

Viserys gets a lot of advice about whether he should marry Corlys and Rhaenys' daughter or not, with some counsel from both Otto and Lionel Strong, who I want to touch on later. He goes with the most combustible option and announces he's going to marry Alicent Hightower, pissing off Corlys and his own daughter in the process. This episode ends with an alliance between Corlys and Daemon, and then we finally get a look at the crab feeder, who basically looks like Leatherface's

and likes to nail people to things on beaches, which I guess is a nice place to die if you gotta go. You gotta go somewhere. Maybe not the best way. With an oceanfront view? Yeah. If you move the sea. Waves lapping at your feet. Look, they don't make a big deal about it, but I thought it was interesting that this episode did take place half a year after the first one that we saw. So...

Mallory, I'm going to start with you. I feel like time is going to be something we need to keep an eye on here, right? Like, obviously this show, we know that there is basically older versions of these cast members waiting in the wings, possibly, obviously for this season, for some people. What did you make of like, oh yeah, six months later, as we got right into the second episode? So I had a few different responses to the time jumping in this episode. Our very first

realization that half a year has passed comes when Sir Rhyam Redwyne, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, is unceremoniously disposed of. We learn that he has perished between episodes and six months have passed. Was he in the first episode? He was, yes. He was. Just like randomly in the background, though, like not much to do. Bearded gentleman in his Kingsguard armor, etc.,

And it was a funny thing because offline, you know, between pods, Joe and I had been talking about, oh, wait, verified. Is Sir Rhyme Lord Commander? Is Sir Harold Lord Commander yet? Oh, my God. What if we get this wrong? You started your Sir Rhyme blog. Yeah. Guess what? No.

Our guy who in the canon previously enjoyed a very, very, very brief stint as the hand and is a present character just gone. So I had a little bit of a timeline time jumping jittery response to that, where at first I wondered how disorienting it was going to be to acclimate inside of each episode, because a lot of time passes between. But then the focus of this episode itself is very, very, very concentrated. Right.

Ultimately, though, I think that given how much time we have to cover that this show has to cover in the first season here, you know, we know the cast is aging up to the older cast.

the older set of actors midway through the season that was widely reported and announced in the run-up to the season. We've seen the older characters in the trailer. We are going to have to move very quickly through time. And so what that does, I think, is reinforce, much like in Fire and Blood, where you'll go across a number of pages over decades of time, that what you are actually seeing inside of the episode in question is...

The things that they are choosing to show us matter. These are the fulcrums. These are the pivot points in these character arcs, in these relationships, in these dynamics. How many years will pass or months will pass between the next set of episodes? I have no idea. But what I do feel confident about after this episode is that whatever we see in episode three will be just as consequential as what we saw here. There's not going to be a lot of downtime. We just have too much time to move through in season one.

I don't know. I miss our sojourns to Flea Bottom, you know, just like kind of wandering around a little bit. Like there's part of me that sort of wants us to, we got to show back. Let's take it a little slow. I understand though, they need to have some pretty, some pretty consequential stuff happening. Like Joe, I mean, do you think that the speed with which it's moving, I don't want to say like,

a disinterest in the era in which it starts. But what do you think, what do you make of the quick pace that we're moving at? I think it's really interesting. We get, I think it's one or two mentions about the fact that it's been six months in this episode, but we also get, as Mal pointed out, those couple mentions of like,

The fact that so much of this episode takes place over the course of one day, but Sarah's will say like earlier this morning, like so many things happen in this one. It's not just one day, but also as I was telling Mal off pod, I think it's really weird that Alison and Raniera wear the same dress the whole episode.

Raniera's are very similar. There's a lot of like cream and beige coloring. Allison's literally the same. Yeah. And we know that High Tower doesn't have one dress. So I didn't know if that was like an editing thing so that they could like chop it around however they wanted to and put the timeline over they wanted. She's in the same dress.

or what was going on there. But the concentrated timeline is so interesting to me. But I know that there was a version of the show at one point where all of this stuff before we get the actors, older actors who are going to be playing Alicent and Rhaenyra, for example, was going to be

was not going, like, you know, once upon a time there was an idea to start with adult Alicent and adult Rhaenyra and just say, remember when this happened somehow in the dialogue. So I do think that at a certain point when we hop into

to those new actors, all of this will feel somewhat like prologue, but not in a sense that it will feel wasted. I think all of this groundwork that they're laying here, all these relationships that they're digging into, the fact that this episode ends with a betrayal of sorts from Allison to Rhaenyra after we also get this lovely scene where they're in the sept together and they seem impossibly close.

I think it's important for us to see that stuff. And so that's why it's here. But I do think eventually all of this, you know, the youth of these girls will seem like a lead up to something else. Yeah. And I think that what we're witnessing are probably like you're saying, these are things that if they had started with the adult versions of these people, there would be lots of references to like, well, you remember when my dad decided to choose you,

without you telling me. That was like a huge schism in our relationship, by the way. That could have wrapped up these two episodes, but we wouldn't get the bridge. We wouldn't get a lot of the stuff that we have that's building up these characters. I wanted to talk a little bit about this idea. I think it kind of had echoes in the first episode, but I was struck when

Viserys was walking Alicent through his sort of replica village or replica that he has in his room there. Yeah, his Lego set. Yeah, and he has like a bit... Mally has like some longing for an era, a bygone era, right? And so even though that this is a prequel to the Game of Thrones that most TV watchers know, that even characters within this prequel

are nostalgic for a time that's gone. And I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about that time that Viserys is talking about. Well, I would say even just more broadly that I think Viserys is being presented to us as a character who is very much... He's reluctant to go to war, right?

with other people and other places, reluctant to go to war with the triarchy and the stepstones, states many times in this episode that it is his job as king to maintain the peace and avoid the war. But he is a character who is deeply at war with himself.

And so while I think you're right to identify that he has this nostalgia for a bygone era, I don't think we should lose sight of what we hear him say in episode one in that great closing stretch with Rhaenyra, where he says the idea that we control the dragons is an illusion.

There are power men should never have trifled with one that brought Valeria its doom. If we don't mind our own histories, it will do the same to us. And so I think that these aspects of longing, and I think he is also a character, especially in this episode, defined by his longing and his loneliness. I think one of the real heartbreaking moments of the episode was on that, uh,

Oh, boy, that walk with Lena Valerian. What a what a stretch of the episode that was where he says that even even dragons can be lonely. And he is, of course, not only speaking about dear Vhagar, but about himself in that moment. And so he is thinking back and studying Vhagar.

Old Valeria, the might of the Freehold, the magic and power of the Dragon Lords, but he also, both because of House Targaryen's role as the lone dragon riding family to escape the doom of Valeria, and also now he is the one entrusted with Aegon's prophecy, with the dream, with the weight of that burden. Can I stop you right there just really quick? Because I think that for listeners who don't know

the deeper kind of history of this world. Like that, that is kind of come up a couple of times in these episodes where there was this place that was full of families that were dragons, right?

And then there was this natural disaster that took place, the Doom, right? Which was a volcanic eruption. Like, what are we talking about? Like a Pompeii thing? Yeah, I think that Pompeii is a really handy comp, actually. The 14 flames. And, you know, Joe and I talked about this for a while on our episode one, House of Art Deep Dive, if anyone wants to hear like a much longer run through of the lore. But it's a very quick snapshot here of

There is a lot of mystery still surrounding what actually befell old Valeria. Now, Denise the Dreamer is the one who had the prophecy of the doom and allowed House Targaryen to escape. And this is part of why House Targaryen put so much stock in dreams and in prophecies. But all of the other dragon riding families, many of whom were warring with each other for who would have ultimate supremacy. And I think that's another thing that's worth remembering when we look

back of Valerian history is that the Targaryens were like mid-tier. Yeah, middling. We're not talking five-star prospect of old Valerian houses, right? This is like if the Pacers got out of the Eastern Conference, basically. Yeah. Exactly. And Chris, I want to return to some basketball and football comps later where we talk about David Targaryen's throwing form. Oh, yeah. You know, the spiral.

The old egg toss. The dragon egg toss there. But what actually happened with the eruption, the 14 flames? Was it that the fire mages lost control of their power? There's a really fun theory out there in the fandom and in the world about

The Faceless Men, who Game of Thrones fans will be familiar with. We don't have to get too deep into it. It's all just to say we don't actually know the answer. Maybe we will learn it moving forward in the tale, but Viserys is a character who thinks deeply about what went wrong and what it might mean for the future. We hear that exchange between Alicent and Viserys in this episode about whether Westeros can be the new Valyria. And

He's not a character who is striving to recreate something. He is a character who is fearful of what went wrong. And I think that is enmeshed in a really fascinating way with the burden that he feels to maintain his role and think about how to extend his reign, something that he and other characters are really perseverating over throughout this entire episode. He used to ride Balerion the Black Dread, the most fabled dragon in the history of the story. He never took a dragon again. Why?

Did he not want to? Is he afraid? It feels like he's afraid of dragon power, and this is a source of frustration for Rhaenyra when she's, you know, doing her cupbearer duty in the small council. She's like, you have dragon riders. Send us. We could clean this up real quick. And that stands in contrast, I think, to on the bridge, Rhaenyra and Daemon sort of seeing each other as dragon riders. They've each brought their WMDs to this conversation, you know what I mean, where Viserys is like,

I don't want to fuck with that at all. And I think the model village that he has in his chambers of old Valyria is one thing, but there's also the more recent history that's hanging over him because Maegor the Cruel, who Otto mentions last week's episode when he's like, Daemon would be another Maegor the Cruel, right? That's the king only one before Jaehaerys, only one before Maegor.

the one we met at the very beginning of episode one, which means this is recent history in Maegor the Cruel, tyrannical reign, absolutely bloody and violent, all of this...

and I think some of the stuff that Damon does in this episode, specifically the idea of taking a second wife, that was a big thing that, that Magor did to take everyone off. Magor loves to get married. Yeah. So it feels like Damon's just sort of like poking at, you know, he's poking at his brother with this move specifically is a real Magor move, like proving Otto right in a certain way. And I want, I want us to always be listening to exactly

the word choices that Otto uses when he's talking to Viserys because the way that he's manipulating the king is so subtle in this episode when he says...

talking about marriage and he says to be compelled to replace her for duty's sake you were the king but i do not envy you like he's not saying isn't my daughter hot he doesn't go that route he goes another which is like using the word duty and just making it sort of an ugly word here in that conversation well other thing i was gonna ask because i can't tell whether the end of episode one where he has we have this reveal to all game of thrones fans that

this secret about the winter and the, what the evil might come with it has actually been like guarded closely by the Targaryen royalty for generations. Um,

If that is informing any of Viserys' like, I don't really want to get into a Stepstones war, and I don't really want to do this, and maybe we can just send a letter, and maybe we can just pay people off. Is that going to be something that we see as like, I mean, I don't want to ask this because I know that a lot of this stuff is like, yes, and you will see in a year or two this will happen. But I'm curious whether or not this new information is,

is governing any of the behaviors of the character. I think, Chris, this will be welcome news to your ears and many listeners, I'm sure. Anything that has to do with this Aegon prophecy, fair game to discuss it in full because we knew nothing about this until this first episode. This is just not in the books. So...

We don't know how fully that is shaping Viserys' thinking, but I think it's a really reasonable read at this point in the story. It's certainly my read. And I'm anticipating that we will learn more in subsequent episodes about how actively that is driving his decision-making. I think that there's also, there's the macro and the micro at play here already because there's this vast weight being the guardian of the safety of the world, right?

Also, there is his very personal shame and guilt about what happened with Emma, with his wife. And he does not know how to speak openly about any of this. I think that if you ask me to describe Viserys, in addition to the kind nature that he seems to have, I would say that so far through two episodes, he's a character who's defined by his passivity and by his secret keeping. And I think that those are

both stark contrasts to other characters, namely his newly named heir, Rhaenyra, his daughter, who is a very active character, and his brother, Daemon, who is a very active character. But also to Joe's point from a minute ago, a state of existence that makes him vulnerable to manipulation. That passivity is,

I mean, I thought that one of the lines of the episode came from Corlys, the sea snake, when he said to Viserys, to elude a storm, you can either sail into it or around it, but you must never await its coming. Viserys Targaryen, through two episodes, is a character defined by waiting for the storm. And when you wait for the storm, you cannot control how you make your way through it. He's a game manager. He's just, he's checking... But he's not! He's not a game manager! He's not? Yeah.

He doesn't know how to manage the game. What do you trust a game manager to do? Not fumble. Not make mistakes. Keep an eye on the clock. He's not a game manager.

It underlines why they included the Great Council of 101, which they didn't have to at all. That is the prologue to the prologue. He gets crowned, right? Yeah, where he is chosen over Rhaenys. That shows us that the previous king saw war on the horizon and made an active move to

to, you know, strongly back someone and head off war at the pass. That's a strong move that he made. And you could argue that Viserys does it in naming Rhaenyra his heir, but how much is he going to stand behind her

Going forward. He's already lining up some spares here. Like, fortify the line. Give me options is something he says. I'm not going to replace you, but I need options is something that he says to Rhaenyra in this episode. So, the naming Rhaenyra his heir thing is the one bit that I kind of felt like suffered with the six-month time jump. So, episode one ends with everybody basically swearing fealty to her. And then six months later, she's still serving drinks. And people are pretty actively...

saying, you need to have more kids just in case this one doesn't work out. There are multiple people on his council who are like, how are we going to get you preferably, I mean, definitely preferably, a male heir that in case Raniro doesn't work out, or let's be honest, probably won't work out, the line here is still guarded. Are we supposed to intuit that the sort of

enthusiasm for the idea of naming Rhaenyra the air joe, like that got diminished over the last six months? Or is it just like that was always going to be the case? I don't know that anyone was particularly enthusiastic about it. I think it was more and something that Rhaenyra says to Alicent and the Sept is like, he didn't choose me. He spurned Daemon. So she was sort of the anyone but Daemon choice. Okay. Now that that's cleaned up,

Let's move to plan B. And to the passivity point, that even reinforces that the most active decision as still being highly reactive and responsive. She seems kind of fatalistic. I mean, on the bridge, she's like, why don't you just kill me? If what you want is to be king, you gotta kill me now. And Damon doesn't, you know? I think she knows he won't. I think that was like a baller move on her part. And she's like, this is what you're... Because it's all...

to quote Otto Hightower, a mummer's farce, right? Meaning like this is just theater that Damon is doing to get attention and she's calling his bluff. Those are not Philadelphia mummers. I'm assuming, right? We're not talking about... Mummers meaning like a theater troupe and it's like that's... It's just...

it's just nonsense that Damon is doing to get attention and she calls him out for it, essentially. She's like, are you really going to kill me right now? Yeah. You know, he's like, obviously, you know, with no words because he's Matt Smith. Obviously not. There you go. It's such a great scene. Before we get to that, because I do want to break that down a little bit more closely, I wanted to ask about the...

current medical state of our king, Viserys. So in the first episode, he's got a little nick from sitting in the Iron Throne that's been bothering him. They're doing some really creative stuff with pus in that episode.

In this episode, if you thought maybe six months and time heals all wounds, it in fact doesn't. It just makes them much, much worse. And now Viserys is getting maggots eating his flesh to, I guess, stop the infection from spreading. So...

Mal, does that also kind of kick things into high gear with we really need an heir here because this guy is slowly dying in front of us? Or is that just like a different era of medical sciences in Westeros and that's just how they treated skin problems? Well...

Boy, I have so many things I want to say in response to that. I think there's so many interesting threads to consider here already. I mean, we know that even a couple centuries later, think of our guy, Qyburn, treating Jaime's rotting flesh after his hand was severed from his arm. It's like, you know what we could turn to here? The highly advanced science of boiled wine. Yeah. So...

At the end of the day, you got to work with with what you have here. Not a lot of surgery going on back then, I guess. Not a lot of skin grafting, not a lot of plastic surgery. OK, so they want, you know, the maggots to eat away the dead flesh, work with what you can. I think that Otto, just as in the in episode one, Otto seemed incredibly focused about

Sure. Let's be charitable and say that he cares about his king and good friend Viserys I Targaryen's health and well-being. Okay. He seems primarily focused on nobody finding out about this because that and that connects to this larger through line of this episode as well. This idea of the crown and the reign and House Targaryen being in this vulnerable state.

where other people, other factions might sense this weakness and this opening and try to tear down

The rule. So anything that heightens the sense across the realm or beyond the realm, the Triarchy, Essos, anywhere, of weakness is something to fear. Now we hear this many times in the episode. Corlys voices this when he's making his campaign to go deal with the Triarchy and the Stepstones. Rhaenys and Corlys just say this directly to Viserys' face when they meet out in the gardens, which was a great scene.

Otto knows that...

A king who is being harmed by the throne on which he sits and cannot heal is not a king who people are going to believe in for long. This is a real risk for them. Yeah, he's not a guy you'd want to have a beer with. Otto or Viserys? Viserys. It's just like he's not going to play. If you try to get people behind this guy and he's like, it actually hurts me to sit, it's going to be a problem. Yeah.

You know, I wouldn't say bar stools and seats are typically the most comfortable. But Chris, I think also if you think about the symbolism of the broken dragon elsewhere in this episode, the stone that fell and fractured from this vast village, and the way that Viserys is so...

captivated by holding its repaired form in his hand. I thought that was fascinating in a lot of different, in a lot of different respects. He certainly seems genuinely very moved and touched by this gesture on Allison's part. And like, frankly, could barely choke out a sentence without sounding like he's on the verge of tears. High key, high key dork. Yeah. Just like me on a podcast. Can't get out of line without sounding like he's about to break down in tears. Oh,

I felt very tenderly toward him in those moments, but it also just felt like he was looking down at himself and at his own line. And we hear him say to Rhaenyra elsewhere in the episode, you know, too easily ended this idea of the vulnerable line. Now he is a part of that in his own mind, but so is the vast sprawling set of scenarios for his own children. He says he does not intend to replace Rhaenyra as heir if he has other children, Chris, to get back to what you were asking about.

earlier, but that doesn't stop a character like Rhaenys from saying to Rhaenyra in front of one of the many dragon fucking people orgy tapestries populating the Red Keep at this point in Targaryen history. Can't wait for them to start selling those as official merch. I'll be buying a poster for my home immediately. Are you talking about the scene where Viserys is walking with her daughter? Yeah. Yeah. I love how it's just like

oh, hey, were you just also watching the king talk to this 12-year-old? So many moments where Renise is watching from a balcony. She's also doing it during the Kingsguard interviews. It made me think of all the shots of Littlefinger leaning against the wall at...

Winterfell in season seven, where every time you cut to him, he's observing something consequential. But she says to Rhaenyra, men would sooner put the realm to the torch than see a woman ascend the Iron Throne and your father is no fool. So we have Viserys reinforcing to Rhaenyra he doesn't want them to become estranged. He intends to maintain her as heir.

And yet the reality all around of the preference of even many of the people who did pledge fealty at the end of episode one, there's no true stability ever. And a nimble ruler has to acknowledge that. That gets back to that Corliss storm line. You always have to anticipate how somebody else is going to try to take you down.

Gotcha. Can I circle back to maggots for a second? Please do. Always. Always want to circle back to maggots. Can I introduce, and I do not think this is a spoiler because it is a fun, long-term, long-gestating book reader theory that has no...

answer one way or another in the books. I think those are a fair game. The problem I'm having is like, how do you write, how do you spell this person's name? So I Google it and then it's like, and he died. Don't do that. Everyone in this story is going to die. No, I know, but it's how. It's how they died. There's something called the Grand Maester theory that I absolutely love. And it is this really fun book reader conspiracy theory about how

The maesters from Old Town, which is where House Honeytower is from, by the way, because there's a maester, like a chicken in every pot and a maester in every castle, they actually have tremendous power throughout the realm to work from behind the scenes to orchestrate the flow of history. And there is especially, there's great, quote,

In A Song of Ice and Fire, where this character, Lady Dustin, calls them gray rats, scurry everywhere, whispering in the ears of their masters. I love that. And then also in A Song of Ice and Fire, when Samwell Tarly goes to the Citadel, which he did in the show as well, he meets a character, Marwyn the Mage, who says, who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragon slayers armed with swords? Yes.

The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons. So there's this great theory that the Maesters are working behind the scenes to end House Targaryen and end the dragons. That is badass. So this is the Maester Illuminati theory. Yes, exactly. I like this. The Carlyle group.

And there's like one arm of the theory that they were working in consort with House Hightower, but I think it's really interesting in that scene with the aforementioned maggots that Otto is working the Alicent agenda and Maester Melos seems to be on team let's make House Valerian happy. Unless he's doing like a deep bench, you know, thing.

manipulation or just acting the part or something like that. It doesn't seem like House Hightower and the Maesters are working together. I don't know if the Grand Maester theory, the Maester theory is real, but I love it. I like it. I love it. Mello's coming in with a bowl of maggots and then what does it matter, Your Grace, about the idea of Rhaenyra maybe being unhappy? Her mother has passed. Her father must propagate the royal line just full on. Who gives a shit? Her mom died. Her dad's gotta fuck. Mello's.

What a showing from Ellis. Great bedside manner.

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Joe, you mentioned Valerian. I wanted to ask a little bit about what, for me, was a very dense data dump when Corlys comes into the small council. And, you know, I was like, slow down. Start from the beginning. Talk to me like I'm a baby. Like, what are we doing here? There's a lot of...

places, people, things being mentioned. He's very upset. He's lost some ships. He feels like they're slow rolling him in terms of the response. We've basically got a situation where, what? I heard Free Cities. I heard Stepstones. This is for either of you. I mean, I think after several viewings, I have a decent idea of what's happening here, but...

this sort of piracy that's going on, I guess, what does that conflict kind of say about this era? Is there a lot of uprisings? Is there...

more than other eras? And does it speak to this being like a moment of instability in the realm? Molly Rubin, you're a famous Free Cities fan. Do you want to talk about what's going on in the Free Cities at this time? Okay, so I'll start with the very last thing that you asked there, Chris, before diving into the triarchy and your guy, the crab feeder, a bit more. Can I ask you just actually one thing really quickly? Is geographically...

oh yeah how far away from king's landing is this happening like are we talking about like you can look out the window and see this happening or this is far away and it's like you're talking about the end of stepstones yeah because i'm wondering whether it's like the same way stuff in the north seemed to be happening on another planet to the to the lannisters they were like ah fuck the north you know what i mean like yeah good good question so while acknowledging that this is a

podcast and people can't see what I'm doing with my hands or visualize this. I'll attempt to sketch out quickly a little respective geography here. So you just start with King's Landing. Let's start with that as kind of a central point. Head out to

east into the narrow sea from king's landing and you hit driftmark and then dragonstone so that's one bit of geography that's worth keeping in mind is that driftmark the seat of house valerian and dragonstone of course the seat of the heir to house targaryen which is why daemon setting up shop there when renera has been named princess of dragonstone is such a grave affront gotcha

go down, head south in the narrow sea, and you will hit the Stepstones, which is basically a chain of islands. It's east of Dorne. It's in the southern narrow sea, and it is this pirate haven. But it's a really, because of its position, it is a really consequential trade route. And we hear Corlys voice this in episode one about the threat of beggaring the ports. But

This is a direct threat to Corlys and House Valerian because, as we know, their strength comes from the sea, from trade, and not just their strength in a military sense, but their wealth. And we've heard a lot about the wealth of House Valerian. So anything that puts that at risk needs to be accounted for. But this is also a consequential trade route for numerous other cities and families. It would be incredibly sick if Ryan Condal was like, for the next five episodes, we're doing...

supply chain issues in Westeros because of the shipping lanes. Let's go to Spicetown. What is Aragorn's tax policy and what are the trade routes? Joanna, I'm literally just going to say that. I was going to say exactly those words. This is like why George R.R. Martin made the story. What if all of a sudden there's a shortage of maggots because of these shipping lanes and we thought about like... Regrettably, you could never run out of maggots. Your king is literally going to fall apart. So, yeah. Mallory, I'm sorry for interrupting. Go ahead. No, no, no. It's a good question. So, okay.

To your last point about vulnerability, we hear this again, as I mentioned earlier, from a lot of different characters. So this is a sensitive, delicate moment. Well, we open this television show, House of the Dragon, by, in the prologue at the Great Council, hearing about how this is the apex of power for House Targaryen. Now we're, you know, we've moved a decade into the future, but I still think that's a really important moment.

shift to be paying attention to. That at the height, you begin to risk what? Of course, the fall. So I found myself thinking back to our introduction to Tywin Lannister in a little television program called Game of Thrones when he is giving that classic dad pep talk to Chris Ryan's favorite incest participant. Favorite incest participant for now, Jamie Lannister. You're going to be a lot of competition for that crowd.

And JB is challenging what he's hearing and saying, so the lion does concern himself with the opinion of the sheep and Tywin cuts him off to say, that's not an opinion, it's a fact. If another house can seize one of our own and hold him captive with impunity, we are no longer a house to be feared. This is just a reality of rule and power and strength in Westeros. If other houses or factions are,

attack you in any way with impunity and you do nothing about it, then other people aren't going to take you seriously for long. And right now that's happening to Viserys in multiple respects as we hear. Daemon taking Dragonstone is one of them and it is so close to him that it is in some respects even more damning that he won't do anything about that. But then the Stepstones, the triarchy with your guy, the crab feeder, this is... That's your boy. That guy is from Baltimore. What?

Our guy, the crab feeder. Football and crab cakes, that's what we... What if we just all embrace him? The crab feeder is so hyped that in late August, the Baltimore Orioles are right in the thick of the wild. I really worry about my susceptibility to the crab feeder. Like, if I was alive during this time in this world, I think I would probably, like, call

cut the line. I was like, this guy's coming. I'm going to get on board early. I'm going to be a seed investor in what he's doing. I believe in it. I believe in the results he's getting. Let's go. Team Crabfeeder. Into the crab boil. You love a seafarer. You love a seafood boil out on the beach. This alliance of...

Myr, Lys, and Tyrosh, it's the kingdom of the three daughters, this is the triarchy, represents...

a pretty real threat because these are often free cities, the nine free cities of Essos. This group in particular often would war with each other over the disputed lands and for them to align and for this alliance to become a threat to Westeros and this trade route is a big deal. And that's why at the end, Corlys, part of the appeal that he makes to Daemon is that

a direct contrast with viserys well he's too weak to act this can be how you show your strength and i love that joe brought up recent targaryen history with maegor and other rulers earlier because the king between agon the conqueror who we of course have heard a lot about and maegor who has been popping up as a reference is what was his name what is his name

Anus Targaryen. Anus Targaryen. Shout out to Anus. Now and always. I love my guy Anus. Here's the thing. A lot of the realm did not love Anus. Not a big Anus realm. And part of that was because he was considered ineffective. And Maegor is a little overcorrection.

But it's part of why Jaehaerys was such a successful ruler. He earned the nickname, the moniker, the conciliator, because he showed no reluctance, even in complex situations, to act, to work, to build alliances. And alliance building through marriage or other methods is a huge focus in this episode as well. If you're going to succeed, you need to know how to navigate that aspect, whether it's through war, through marriage, or through any other aspect of life in Westeros. It seems to be like the entire...

Martin Project in a lot of ways is watching these families sort of align with one another, betray one another, marry into one another, take over different seats of power. Joe, Corliss is heated in this moment. He's losing money, but I think he's also taking offense to what it means that

He sits on the small council and he's just getting got by these pirates. Can you tell me a little bit about who this guy is? He's married into the Targaryen family, but who is this character? I would be thrilled to do this. And if you have three and a half hours of your life to spare, you can also listen to our deep dive. I am on minute 92, but I have only been awake for like... I have a ton.

I thought you would have made it. Yeah, it was way further than I thought you would have gone. You've been jet-setting this week. I'm proud of you. I thought my iPhone was broken when I saw how long it was. But... Just in case someone doesn't have three and a half hours to spare, let me give you the reader's digest of some of the deep dive that we did last week on House Valerian. Just to say that, as Corlys says in this episode, he says the Valerians were no dragon lords. My house had to scratch out our fortune from the sea. So this idea that...

The Valyrians, who are from Old Valyria, from the Model Village, as we discussed, they came over before the Targaryens. They were here first, but they were not dragon riders, so they don't have that built-in majesty or command. And so Corlys...

himself built the Valerian fortune by being a seafarer, by being, if you want to call him a pirate, you know, he built all this money up together. And something that I think is really important context is that Valerian is now the richest house in all of Westeros.

and they only recently eclipsed the Lannisters, you've heard of them, and the Hightowers. So Otto Hightower is sitting at the small council looking at this guy who is like nouveau riche, if you want to call him that, who is coming in here and is now richer and more powerful than him. So it makes entire sense to me that Otto is like, I don't really care about protecting your fortune. Yeah, he's like, we'll top you off with some coin, but I'm not going to make this guy...

fight a war for you, right? Right. And Corlys is new to the seat of power, has ambitions, is married into the Targaryens. His family's been passed over for the throne already.

He is so outraged that his daughter is passed over here because she is on paper, despite being 12 years old, the better match for Viserys. But there's a small detail that a lot of people latched onto in episode one that I don't think we mentioned, which is that when...

They're pouring wine for everyone at the small council. He puts his hand over his glass. And I think it's really telling in terms of like, I'm new here. I can't fuck around the way that you guys have who have been here for generations. This is serious business. I'm on the small council. Let's do some business. And so I think that's really telling of him. And then also the way that he's bonding with Damon over we're both second sons, right? The idea that being the second son in a household means everything goes to the first son and

There's a reason that there's a sellsword company in Esso called the Second Sons, because it's like, if you're the second son, you have to make your own fortune. So maybe you go off and be a mercenary, or if you're Corlys Velaryon, you build a massive shipping empire or whatever the case may be.

But I think one more just quick detail of this episode that I think is so fascinating is if you go back to Rhaenyra picking Criston Cole out of the, you know, number of knights who are there to be on the Kingsguard, right? Does she pick him because he's battle-tested? Maybe. Does she pick him because she likes the way his hair looks? Probably. But...

If you look at that assemblage of knights, and Otto sort of mentions this, the other houses that are assembled there are more noble than House Cole. The other knights have bannermen with them. They've got huge plumes on their helms. They've got fancy tunics over their armor. Kristen Cole's standing there by himself with his dinged-up armor, no plume. And this is a huge...

upward mobility moment for him to join the Kingsguard. So, like, he, along with Damon and Corliss, are these figures that are sort of... And Otto Hightower is also a second son. Right. Who are out there scratching their way up the ladder, which I think is a really interesting theme that this show is interested in. Yeah, can I just...

Follow up on that for a second. So, I mean, first of all, shout out Damon calling Kristen Crispin iconic. Made me think of Jamie. Rick on a dick on. He's a man after my own heart. Proud Thrones tradition. I think that it is worth remembering when we consider the risk of a rift with House Valerian. And we hear many in this episode, including characters like Otto and Alison to have their own agenda here. Otto's agenda, um,

have to concede the point, have to at least acknowledge out loud that a match with the Valerians is the logical alliance to make and a smart one for Viserys's reign, but

House Targaryen and House Valerian have a long history. Not only because they're both Valerian houses, but the Lord of the Tides has been like an ever-present figure on Targaryen small councils during the entire time that they've reigned. So...

Look back to Aegon, the conqueror. He had a Valyrian as his master of ships during his conquest, Daemon Valyrian. Look at the marriages between the houses pre-conquest.

Valerian married Arian Targaryen, and that's how we got the Conquerors. That's how we got Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys. So this is a long tradition. There are other marriages and unions we could cite. I say that to say, risking that is...

a big deal. Like being the ruler who sees that fall apart is a real blight potentially on your reign. Now that all exists in the context of life in Westeros where nothing is eternal, right? The sea never stays flat and glassy for long. There are always going to be waves and tides that pull somebody under them. Is this a Mallory Rubin original aphorism or is this in the book?

I just love the ocean, just like you and the crab feeder. But the other thing I just wanted to quickly say is that, and Joe, please correct me if I'm wrong here. And then Steve, edit this out of the episode. But Coralus Valerian, unless this is a show update, and it might be, because canon changes all the time, of course, across the adaptations. And there's a lot we don't know about the characters in Fire and Blood. We just have certain details. There's a ton to learn. It's not actually a second son.

Right.

He is a tactician and a schemer. And these are always the most fun and compelling characters in this world. The schemers, the ones who have their plot, plots and schemes, schemes and plots. They're the same thing. And to get to watch this unfold, you know, what did we hear Damon say in episode one about Otto, a second son who stands to inherit nothing he doesn't seize for himself? That's true for Damon, too. And Corliss knows that.

Well, and I think it's, yeah, it reminds you of Tyrion saying all bastards are cripples in their father. You know, like this idea of like, let me, let me relate to you.

All dwarves are bastards in a father's eyes. That's the line. Or also, like, relating cripples, bastards, broken things. We're all on the same level. So, Corlys, I'm... I don't know. I could see the show changing it so that it's literal that Corlys is the second son. But I like your version better. Yeah, where he's basically trying to appeal to him on a more of, like, a...

Like a symbolic level rather than a literal one. Let's talk about the bridge. It's been 50 minutes here and I can't believe we haven't gotten to my favorite scene in the show so far, which is... Where the one dragon in the show looks at itself in a mirror? That one? Yeah.

Let's talk about this incredible scene. First of all, like, if you had a critique, if one had a critique, and we talk a little bit about this on the episode of The Watch going up tonight, where it's like, it's been a very interior show so far. You know, we haven't gotten to see a lot of what King's Landing looks like right now and what are different folks doing. A lot of our main characters are kind of bunched together. Yeah.

dictates that these people will be split apart and obviously Damon has been the first person to step out and we get to see a little bit more of the world. This was an awe-inspiring... Gregory Tanis directed this episode. This looked incredible. I have a few things I would like to point out that I love from this scene. And these are not questions, so anybody just jump in whenever you want. Number one, gotta say Rhys Iphans is just really good at saying the word whore. He's...

Said it twice. I feel bad for who he's talking to, but at the same time, I hope he doesn't stop.

Can I just say, let me jump in and say, actually, the word reading of this episode award I would give to Fabian Franco, who plays Kristen Cole, he says, incursions. Like, he draws it out. It's pretty funny. Yeah. But he's called Masaria a whore twice. So that's chill. Two, the mummers farce bit. I love that just as a Philadelphian. Love to see the mummers popping up in Game of Thrones. Three, I wanted to ask...

Either one of you jump in for this. Damon's stealing the egg. Is he shitposting? Like, because she's not pregnant, so he doesn't need the egg. So what was the goal here? Yeah, and again, that's a difference from the book, but I think that, in which she is actually pregnant, but I think that, you know, and this is why Masaria is so pissed, because she's like, you just put a target on my back. You just made me really vulnerable to assassination. Yeah.

all for just to get your brother's attention. Because it really does, you know, he says, where's the king? And Otto lies, you know, because Viserys was going to go there. That was Viserys' first instinct. I'm on my way to Dragonstone. Can't take a dragon, so I guess I'll go by ship or whatever. But Otto lies to him at Dragonstone. He's like, the king could not be bothered. And Harold Westerling gives him a face like, we know that you stepped in to do this. But that's all Daemon wanted, I feel like, is making...

Maybe if I just sit here for six months, my brother will come notice me on Dragonstone. And that didn't happen. So maybe if I steal this dragon egg, my brother will come notice me. Mal, do you disagree? No, I'm with you. Yeah. Are there any consequences to being like, I need this dragon egg because my wife is pregnant and it's like, she's not pregnant. And like that, it's just like, then you're just being an asshole. Like,

Like, I wonder whether or not that will come up again. Yeah, I think that it's worth noting that Viserys, as many characters remind us throughout the episode, wasn't interested in challenging Daemon at all. And in fact, Viserys says, like, what would you have me do? You know, send him to the wall, put his head on a spike? It's only when he learns, when they learn that it was Dreamfire's egg, the same egg that Rhaenyra had picked for Balon's cradle, the air for a day, that Viserys is moved to act. Because that is such a...

cruel and personal affront. The egg that had been chosen for your dead son is the one that I came to take. Like, of course, that is an effort to draw Viserys out. And that gets back to this real tension that we saw between them in the throne room scene and in the premiere, but also this love and affection. Like, I believe Daemon in episode one when he said, I want to be by your side. Why do you, like...

Why do you let this asshole who I don't respect advise you and cast me into these other positions? So he wants Viserys's attention. I loved so much. I mean, the visuals were gorgeous. Seeing Caraxes move down from the fortress onto the bridge, seeing Syrax emerge up through the fog, the low light, the low sun. It was just stunning. Dragons also, they kind of talk now.

Okay. This is my moment for dragon sound design. So like what I love about that moment is that you hear both of them before you see them. You hear Caraxes and you hear Cyrax before you see them. And,

And I sent a message to my pal Paula Fairfield, who does the dragon sound design on, she did it on Game of Thrones. Oh, wow. Is doing it on House of the Dragon. And I was asking her about the sound design on Caraxes. And she said, basically, Miguel Sapochnik said, he's the dragon that no one loves and he has a deviated septum. And my expansion was that he's a bullying white boy who thinks he can rap and overcompensates. So like real, real Kendall Roy energy. He might say that he's a bullying white boy.

He had a cocaine problem in the 70s. This is incredible. And overcompensates for his deviated septum. Plus, he's always hitting on the lady dragons. He tries to sing a new lovesick rap song he wrote for Cyrax. Astonishing. Wow. I have no notes. Flawless.

And like Paula sometimes makes up little stories about the dragon, but she says the whole like the dragon that no one loves and has a deviated septum thing did come from Miguel Sapochnik. That's incredible. And then she said the clicking and the whistling and the spitting that you hear from Caraxes in this sequence is

comes from the same family of sound sources that she used to make the toddler dragons in season three, episode four of Game of Thrones. So like Paula has this really cool sound library. And if you go to her studio, which is the coolest place in the world, she's got like this thing she calls the bone yard, which is all these bones that are hanging up that make a bunch of noise. And like just the way she puts together the sound design on these dragons. And like, this is just part of my ongoing attempt to get

Chris Ryan to acknowledge that there are different dragons on this show. I know that they're different. I just don't need to invest in their biographies just yet. Well, I don't know, man. Don't you? Well, if I had known they had deviated sections in the writing route, yeah. If you can make a comp to every character from Succession, then will it help you invest in who they are? Can we just call one Connor and one Tom and one Tom?

I think that was like Kendall versus Shiv was what we saw. I love this so much. This is incredible. The other, there were so many interesting dynamics there, but I love that like

Otto orders everybody to sheath their fucking swords as soon as he sees Caraxes. I was going to say the shit talk on the bridge is outstanding. It's amazing, but it's like such a, again, he's not even there and in his absence it is an extra forceful indictment of Viserys because Rhaenyra was right when she said, you have dragon riders send us, like look how quickly things are resolved and Rhaenyra's action as a point of contrast is so palpable in this moment. And then like the debrief later, what,

of course he loves his daughter. He has great affection for her, as Joe and I have talked about. But he's also framing that in, you're my heir? What?

which was like really dispiriting and strange, obviously for Rhaenyra herself, but she's able to diffuse the situation to get the dragon egg back in that little dragon keeper kiln, speaking in High Valyrian, initially challenging Daemon. The crockpot? The crockpot gets the little back shoulder, back shoulder pass from old Daemon. It's amazing.

Mahomes-ian ball security from Damon. You know? Just really leaving it out there for anybody who wants to try and strip it. Yeah. God. That whole scene was just so, so great. And I loved the look on Otto's face as he watched Rhaenyra walk back through and then take off because what is playing on his face? There's almost some begrudging respect. He can't help but acknowledge that she's an effective leader. But I think also, to me at least, it seemed like that moment was one of

almost panic. Like this is not somebody I'm going to be able to control the way I can her father.

And then like the episode starts with him booting her out of the small council room by saying like, perhaps there's better uses for the princess's talents elsewhere. And then goes to that assignment and tries to like, you know, manage her on the Kingsguard assignment as well. And yeah, so I think this is a huge moment. And then when she shows up, he tells Kristen Cole, escort the princess to safety. And she's like, watch out for my dragon. She's very protective. You know, so yeah, Otto has got this

He backed Rhaenyra because he didn't want Daemon, but he can't have Rhaenyra because Rhaenyra is uncontrollable. And she's already starting to show flashes of like, well, when you have dragons, you can do anything. So, you know, and maybe things shouldn't work the way that they work. And if we have dragons, we can be as progressive as we want to be. Yeah.

Gosh, so there's two big points I kind of want to hit before we go. One is just the overall theme of power being consolidated or acquired through marriage, which obviously is what happens at the end of this episode. Although, I mean, just as somebody who's watched enough Game of Thrones, it doesn't seem like a lot of relationships founded on love really bode well for the people involved.

involved in them. You know, like most relationships in Game of Thrones that are, hey, these are two powerful people who need to be brought together. Those are the ones that have staying power. It's the ones where it's like, I can't stay away from this person that winds up causing wars or getting people killed or whatever.

Little Robin to Lisa. Yeah, or hell, even Jaime and Cersei. You know what I mean? Like, there's lots of opportunities for us to... Jon Ingrid should have just stayed in that cave enjoying a life of waterfalls and cunnilingus. What an alternate history that is. So, with that in mind, and without spoiling, I guess, the rest of this series...

How big of a mistake did Viserys just make? Or, I mean, like, you can't answer that. So how big of a... Here's something I think I can say about this episode. I think that there... I mean, first of all, this definitely isn't a love match because Alyson is, like, chewing her own fingers off throughout this whole thing. And it's just, like, you know, being steered by her father. But, like, to your point, Viserys is following his... Wow, she mended my Lego minifig for me. Thank you so much, Alyson. And she seems to share the same interests. Like, right? We're both bookish. We both...

Love replicas. You know what I mean? Yes. We both like to read. But I think there are some really own goals that...

Exactly. Thank you, C. What did you do, Jada? She's a ringer. Oh, boy. But he, that he makes in this episode where it's just sort of like he could have done this, but what if he had had like a side conversation with Corliss first? What if he had told Rhaenyra for, you know, like, why did he announce it the way that he did? Well, I mean, I would say he was opinion shopping and he kept getting the same one. I mean, I thought it was very striking how Lionel Strong's

way of talking to him about why it made sense for him to marry Corliss's daughter.

was pretty, like, very straightforward and very, like, sober. You know what I mean? Whereas everybody else seems to be, like, manipulating him a little bit, and maybe Lionel was manipulating him as well. That was a really cool little speech he gives where he's just like, I understand, like, this sucks, but if you're trying to, like... If the goal here is to not lose power and to make sure your family stays where it is, like, you gotta do this one. Yeah, absolutely. And...

I agree with Joe. It felt like a real... This is just a series of unforced errors because he actually has, over the course of the episode, opened up to Rhaenyra and she has opened up to him in turn. And one of the things that I thought... This was a big... We haven't talked about Alicent as much today and I think this was obviously a huge Alicent Hightower episode. And it was fascinating to watch her interact with both...

with Viserys, with Rhaenyra, and with her own father and try to glean her personal motivation in each situation. And we have so much about her interior thinking in life that we don't know. We're just getting to glimpse for the first time. And I think that her affection for Rhaenyra, for example, is deeply felt and very sincere. Absolutely undeniable. Undeniably so.

But it is also true that when they're at the Sept and Rhaenyra is saying, like, all these bros in the realm just cannot wait for another heir to come along so they can get rid of me and move me out of the line of succession, and she is opening up her heart that Alicent does not repay that confidence with candor of her own, does not reveal that she has been for six months meeting in secret with Viserys, Rhaenyra's father, tries to counsel and encourage Viserys

Viserys.

to welcome Rhaenyra, which is as much projection about, hey, well, what if you welcomed me into your life, right? And then to guide Rhaenyra to go open up to her father. So Alicent is a maneuverer as well. And even though she is also being used as a pawn in this really hideous way by her father, she is acting in a fascinating fashion throughout the episode. So why does Viserys say to Rhaenyra,

in their very forthright exchange about the need for him to marry. By the way, let me tell you who I'm thinking this should be. Yeah. Your best friend who is your same age, by the way. And that's a huge show difference is that, like, Allison and Raniere are the same age. It just makes this...

Way worse. Yeah, way more Brian De Palma-y than you'd expect it to be. Let's wrap up with our guy. So the last sort of moment of the episode is obviously this alliance that comes between Corlys and Daemon, although I will note, and overall I had this question, I kind of like Daemon as this dude who's like, it's not like he has a plan. Like when Corlys is sort of going at Viserys and Daemon's like, that's my brother, I can say that, but you cannot say that.

I was kind of like, okay, but everything you're doing is weakening your brother. You know, you go to Dragonstone, now you're scheming behind his back. So this sort of familial bond that you two have while sweet, you're not really playing that out in practice. In any case, these two kind of come to some sort of...

idea of what they're going to do going forward. And then the last shot is of the crab feeder. Crab feeder coming. Winter is coming. And I just want to know a little bit more about this guy. I know I have to be patient, but what are...

What's his business model? Like, what are his core values? And seriously, though, who's paying this guy? Like, who, because is he an independent operator or is he a functionary of something else? Or is that just something I need to wait for? I think they mentioned a couple times, like, who do you think is funding Kragus Crabfeeder if not the Free Cities? You know, like, I think that, you know, like, because there is the argument that can be made that Kragus Crabfeeder is just a pirate company

particularly vicious one that we can clean up. And the point that Viserys, Otto, and my guy, Lord Beesbury, are making is that to... Gods be good. Gods be good. That to attack Kragus Crabfeeder is to declare war on the Free City. Right. And...

I will say this is where the show is going to have to do a lot of extra work that the book... We don't have a ton of book answers, do we, Mallory? No. He likes carpentry and seafood. Just some great form on the batting stance as he's... Low center of balance, yeah. Yeah, the hips. I see a real power hitter doubles to the gap. I just don't think we can end the episode since we're talking about David and Corliss and the Stepstones here without noting that...

one of the most shocking digs of the entire episode was Damon saying it was never my brother's strongest trait. Corliss asking what and Damon saying being king. So good. But it's so funny because then Corliss is like, yeah, fuck that guy. And Damon's like, hey, I can say it. I know. But Chris, to your point then about Damon and this brotherly bond and rift, like what was the opening note for the series?

We didn't get the great council scene just to see Viserys chosen over Rhaenys, though of course that was a huge part of why. It's because we get in the voiceover the mission statement of the show. The only thing that could tear down the House of the Dragon was itself. And so even when there's sincere affection and the, hey, won't you look at me and welcome me back into the fold thing,

for the way that Damon is behaving, the consequences are not always things that these characters are anticipating in full. Yeah. And that's why it's an entertaining show. That's why it's a fun story. If everybody knew exactly what the consequence of their choice was going to be, there wouldn't be much of a television show. Yeah, that would be a short show. Can I drop one last Lord of the Rings reference before we go? Just to like bring this week of content all together. Um,

Corlys Valerian says to Daemon, waiting the substance is a chance for you to prove your worth to any who might doubt it. Which, of course, has to make us think of King Denethor who says, a chance for Faramir, captain of Gondor, to show his quality. Which is a real shit thing to say to your second son over there in Gondor. Oh, God. Yeah. I'm fired up. War, which has been absent, as people keep pointing out, for so long.

is really this place where the second sons, the lowborn or whatever, can work their way up the ladder. Upper mobility. That's what this is all about. I'm fired up. I thought this was a good episode. Andy and I talked about it a lot. We had our critiques, but we were, I think, generally like...

judging it against its baseline of like, this is pretty good. Here's some notes, but it is pretty good. I wanted to ask you two one thing. We don't often get to chat about the kind of more, I guess, like critic point of view on the show. After two episodes, and it's only two episodes, did you notice, because Andy and I talked about this for much of the Watch episode that's going up now, do you note slash miss any of like the Benioff and Weiss like,

Just the little seasoning that they had for their version of George Martin's world, where it had, I think, a little bit more...

I don't know what, like, what's the dynamic range? Yeah, humor. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think not having a Tyrion character, like as great as Matt Smith is as Daemon Targaryen, like the closest we have to this kind of thing, not having a Tyrion, not having those really like witty jokes or really funny moments. And then also, and we've talked about this

the cross section of society. We're still operating with the Lords and the Kings and the princesses. And so you do miss being down in the muck and the mud and the dirt. I guess we're in the, the sand with the crab feeder, but, um, I, I think I miss, I,

I'm really enjoying the show. I like it a lot. I really am enjoying it on rewatch. Like, I think the scene in the sept with Rhaenyra and Alicent... The candle scene, right? Yeah, with the candles, was just some of the finest, like, textiles

tense acting that I've seen from people on Thrones. That being said, I do, but I think it could be coming. Yeah. I think it's growing that way. That's why I'm like, this is like such a fake criticism because it's two episodes and they haven't really left the small council room that much, you know? So I, but I do, I think inevitably people go back to the beginning of Game of Thrones to compare and contrast the two shows. And I was like, man, the beginning Game of Thrones is funny. Yeah.

You know, it's really funny. Yeah, I agree with what you both said. I mean, I think that, Joe, to that last point, I would anticipate more room to play in that respect once the timeline slows down. You know, that connects to what we were talking about earlier where, like, on the one hand, there is actually kind of like a leisurely pace inside of the episodes because so much of it is oriented around Tyrion's favorite thing, great conversations in elegant rooms. But those are heavy conversations

somber conversations about vast and meaningful things in the history of the house and the characters and the realm. So once we are no longer zipping through quite so many months and years at a time and we slow down and live more fully inside of each episode in a given moment, I think there's more room for zingers. You know, take the time to go enjoy a bowl of brown, return to the street of silk for another orgy.

I can't wait. Steve Allman was our producer today. Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin, thank you so much for joining me. You guys have your House of R deep dive on Tuesdays. As I mentioned a couple of times, Andy and I cover the show on The Watch. More from a critical eye, but we still chat it up. We break down a couple of the scenes. And then we will be back next Sunday night for episode three. Any closing notes? Can we...

Call you the Maggot King or is that? I kind of like that. Okay. That feels like a strong heading anyway. We'll see you guys next week. This episode is brought to you by State Farm.

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