House of Rewinds: 'Ex Machina' 10 Years Later
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I am become death and destroyer of worlds. There you go again, Mr. Quotable. There you go again. It's not my quote. It's what Oppenheimer said after he made the atomic bomb. Yeah, I know what it is, dude. And welcome to House of R. I'm Brenna Robinson. Joining me today and repeating over and over to herself the good deeds a man has done before defends him. The good deed a man has done before defends him. It's Mallory.

Ruben. Hey, Mallory. How you doing? I'm on brown rice and mineral water. Great to be here. Words she's never said in her entire life, folks. Here we are to talk to you about Ex Machina.

And just a masterpiece, a perfect film? Yes. Question mark? A spookily prescient film. And here we are roughly 10 years later. We'll talk about that in a second. But before we get into just sort of our easy, breezy, beautiful tour through a movie that we both really, really love that is quite thought-provoking, some programming reminders. Mm-hmm.

it already but i'm sure you have but you haven't already checked out the midnight boys do family court colon batman with the right honorable chris ryan presiding i really recommend you check that out over on the ringer verse it's a must you gotta watch this one there's everyone looks great yeah please see the power go to chris's head in real time as he renders his judgment

I had to pause because I was laughing so much I was missing dialogue after Steve invoked threads.

It's like, I need, I just need a minute to recover. This is a masterpiece. Um, over on button mash, uh, they are covering mythic quest season four. The minted dish crew is doing your friendly neighborhood. Spider-Man episode one reactions. And, uh, next week, the midnight boys are doing an infinity war black recast and also doing a Falcon and winter soldier revisit to get ready for captain America, the new captain America film. Um,

of y'all to do that, and I'm excited to listen. That shall not be part of my prep. Over here, we are, for the next couple weeks, we're sort of in and out a little bit as we gear up to sort of this big coverage of...

Many, many things that Mallory and I are looking at. We've got Daredevil coming. We're so excited. Mal and I are going to be doing White Lotus on the Prestige feed. We're doing Yellow Jackets. We're doing a ton of stuff. We're talking about Onyx Storm, which means we got to reread Fourth Wing and Iron Flame. There's just like a lot of prep going on here at the house of our team. So we'll be sort of in and out the next couple of weeks leading up to that. Next week, though, our plan... Mm-hmm.

Is to do a mailbag episode. Love a seasonal bag. We love a mailbag episode. So, hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com.

We've already gotten some mailbag questions from folks because we announced this a couple weeks ago. So they've been oozing in. But if that ooze could turn into a deluge, I would not be upset. So hobbitsanddragons.gmail.com is where you can reach us to ask us any questions you might have. Mallory Rubin. Yes, ma'am. How can folks keep track of us? Track of the Midnight Boys? Track of the Minty Crew? Track of Button Mash? What do you think? What do you say?

Thanks for asking. It's simple. Here you go. Ready? Yeah. Ready? Yeah. No. Follow the pod. Yes. There you go. Okay. You're caught up. That's all you need. Follow the pod. Follow House of R. Follow the Ringerverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow the Ringerverse on the social media platform of your choosing, whatever that might be these days, and send us the emails as Joe noted. Send them for the mailbag, but send them for anything. We're only a couple weeks away from Captain America. We're only a few weeks away from

I guess, yeah, a few. God, it's January 30th, isn't it? We're only a few weeks away from Daredevil. Email us about everything. We'd love to hear from you. That's it. Now you know how to follow. Thanks so much for saying that. Hey, you bet. That's so great. That's wonderful. Spoiler warning for today is for the film Ex Machina and also all of our existential fears about AI is also on the table as we discuss this film, which...

Ex Machina, if you're listening, sometimes people listen to the pod without having seen the thing. So let me just say really quickly, Ex Machina is a science fiction film that strains credulity because it asks us to believe that Donald Gleeson does not have a girlfriend. Step one. Donald Gleeson plays a programmer named Caleb who wins a prize, he thinks, to go visit the...

reclusive eccentric uh founder ceo of his company nathan in uh a modernist utopian structure in the middle of the wilderness by glaciers and fjords etc uh and there he meets an ai played by the great alicia vikander

We have some questions about AI, about humanity, about whether anyone should ever be a billionaire. I have questions about that. And murder mayhem ensues. The...

that we're celebrating, it's complicated. Ex Machina had about 20 different debut dates. Yeah. But somewhere in the middle there, there was a 2015 debut. It debuted at South by Southwest. It debuted in the UK. There's a couple different dates. So this is roughly 10-ish years later, Ex Machina revisited. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Let's go now to our opening stop. Welcome to Naughty Yacht.

Next on Naughty Yotta Island. I knew I deserved so much more, so I left. I finally switched to Metro and got what I was looking for. Get one line for only $25 a month with AutoPay. Just bring your phone to Metro and experience all the data you want on the largest 5G network. That's Naughty Yotta Yotta, only at Metro by T-Mobile. First month is $30. Bring your number and ID. Offer not available if with T-Mobile or with Metro in the past 180 days.

This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Upgrade your business with Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet. ShopPay boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning fewer carts going abandoned and more sales going cha-ching. So if you're into growing your business, get a commerce platform that's ready to sell wherever your customers are. Visit Shopify.com to upgrade your selling today. All right, Mallory, as I mentioned, roughly 10 years ago, Ex Machina debuted.

What's your relation? When did you watch Ex Machina? What's your relationship to it? How do you feel about it? Tell me everything. I can't tell you the exact story.

month of around the, the many releases when I watched it, but I definitely watched it the year it came out. I, I, I, Adam and I saw it back in, uh, 2015, though the year it came out, I guess one of the years it came out, the year it came out here in the United States of America. Uh, we were, the masses were able to access it, um, and immediately just loved it. It became one of my favorite films and I always enjoy revisiting it. I think about it often. Um,

Donald Gleeson and Oscar Isaac are two of my all-time favorites, as you know, and as is House of Arcanon. And Alex Garland is one of my favorites. I love Alex Garland's work. And I think this movie really is like a classic, a classic of the genre, a classic of modern times. And I

I kind of couldn't believe when you pointed out that it had come out a decade ago. It feels like I just saw it yesterday for the first time. That was sort of harrowing to have to confront. But here we are, a decade later, and this beautiful movie is in our lives. It's a great 4K movie.

disc for the physical media heads like Sean Fennessey and like my husband Adam. So I was like, wow, great. We hear this is wonderful. And yeah, it's just an incredible movie. I really never tire of revisiting it. What about you? When did you first come to this? And why is the answer South by Southwest when you wrote multiple pieces that were published on the internet and people can still read? Yeah.

I was at South by Southwest 10 years ago for Vanity Fair. And I was there as a journalist and I was there, uh, at the Paramount theater when they premiered it South by and Oscar Isaac was there. Don't go. So it was there. And Alex Garland was there and we were all tremendously excited to be in the room. Uh, it,

It's similar, you know, similar vibes to when you and I went to go see Monkey Man and everyone was just like lost their mind. That was a similar reception. The Dev Patel Monkey Man reception and the Oscar Isaac Donald Gleeson reception. But it's interesting. We'll talk about this in a second, but it's interesting that this came out

the same year as, but before the four weekends, but obviously we'd all seen like the trailer. So we knew that these two guys were in the new star Wars film, but we hadn't seen it yet. Uh, before we get into that, I want to swoop back to Alex Garland and say, Alex Garland as a creator, um, you know, was a frequent collaborator with Danny Boyle. He wrote the screenplay for 28 days later, sunshine, the beach, uh, wrote the screenplay for one of Mallory's all time favorites. Never let me go. Uh,

and then directed, wrote and direct. This is a directorial debut, wrote and directed, uh,

This film makes Machina. And then he made Annihilation, an adaptation of a tremendous novel. He made Men, a very complicated film that I have lots of thoughts and feelings about. And Sean Fennessy and I did a Big Pick episode about. And Civil War and Devs, a show that I believe Mal and Jason covered. And so that is the Alex Garland loose body of work. And I agree with you, Mal. He's one of my all-time favorites. His stuff is not always...

Like I have a lot of quibbles with devs. I have a lot of quibbles with men, uh, the film. And, um, I just, uh, but it's always interesting. He has so much on his mind and, um, and thinks so deeply. And especially when you, when you go back and revisit, revisit Ex Machina film that a lot of people have seen and a lot of people think is great. But if you go back and look at it now in 2025, you're

You're like, this guy was doing this 10 years ago when people were not talking about, people were talking about AI, but not the way he's talking about AI in this film. And I think it's just incredibly, I think we should pay very close attention to everything Alex Garland does. Like maybe go rewatch Civil War and think about it a little bit. Here we go. So I feel really similarly. I actually don't love everything he makes, but I'm always curious.

I'm always like riveted by whatever he is presenting us to consider and just find his writing and, and, you know, from this film onward, his directing incredibly like provocative and thought provoking. And sometimes I actually find that I quite powerfully disagree with his maybe core point of view or perspective, which was ultimately like where I came down on devs. I was like,

so shaken and disturbed by the thesis of devs. Like, I just could not embrace it ultimately. Yeah. But I loved that the show made me feel that strongly about it. Just like, you know, incited that deep of a response. Civil Wars, I actually have not seen Men. I never saw Men. So I gotta watch that at some point. It's very,

his most like horror. That's the thing. It's just the trailers like really freaked me out. I was like, this might be a pass for me, but at some point I, I just, I I'm so intrigued by his work that I will probably see it, but I like did not like civil war. Oh, I, and then when I talked to Chris about it and I, I really like admire obviously his, um,

so much and consider him such a man of taste and letters. And it was like his literally favorite movie of the year, which I found difficult to wrap my mind around, but really interesting. And I do think that's one that I'll go back to. And I'm like, I wonder if I'll feel...

similarly about it or if I'll see it differently but yeah I had a medium okay time with Civil War like highs and lows and then I talked to a bunch of people about it and who loved it and they really changed my mind about a lot of things and I think it's one of those similar to I keep saying this to Sean about the brutalist like there's certain films you watch you don't enjoy the experience of watching them but you enjoy the experience of thinking about them and you enjoy the experience of

talking about them. Annihilation is similar by design in that story. It is like... I really like that movie. I know, I like it a lot, but it is because of the...

psychologically destructive and physically destructive nature of the environment that they're sort of, you know, moving into. It is, to me, an uncomfortable watch by design, but a really interesting thing to think about. And I love that book. And so, like, a really tricky book to adapt. So, um... I think I told you this before once, but...

This is one of the most still to this day disorienting consumption experiences for me because I knew we were going to cover the film on binge. And so I, of course, wanted to read the book. And I'm like, this is pretty short. Let me do it before I see the movie, which I was seeing like, you know, a day or two after that. So I was finishing the book when I tell you I was in my seat at the movie theater.

finishing the book and then watch the movie. I would not recommend doing it that way because I loved them both, but they like, maybe in a way that is kind of meta actually like morphed and melded into each other in a way that made them almost impossible to discern, but they are ultimately quite, quite distinct. But yeah, you know, Ex Machina and Annihilation are only a few years apart and those are just stunning. And obviously, you know, the 28 franchise we recently discussed on the hype draft, which we don't need to get back into here.

I was on a big pick today. Sean said something about like he was talking to Amanda about the Oscar bet and how he like didn't really care, wasn't competitive or whatever. And I was like, beg to fucking differ, dude. Like lie to yourself if you want to, but don't lie to me. Yeah. 20 Days Later, a masterpiece. Sunshine, a masterpiece. The Beach, a masterpiece.

uh, quite an alienating movie when it came out. Um, but it has been really interesting to me. We revisited it for a trial by content episode last year and I, I had a really good time with it last year. So I think his stuff ages really well. Um, but it is, there's always sort of like an, an irritant quality to it. And I think because he has such a

take on humanity. That's part of it. He's just sort of like, what if humans are ultimately a mistake? Or what if humans are only one step in our evolution towards a more perfect being? That seems to be on his mind. So I think that's quite interesting. Yeah.

Yeah, I wrote a review for Ex Machina for VF and I wrote another article about that South by situation. I reread that article that I wrote about South by that year and I was just like, I don't agree with 2015 Joanna, but that's okay. I want to ask you about the idea of like Hux and Poe. Mm-hmm.

being in this movie. Jake Gyllenhaal was almost cast in the Oscar Isaac role. The studio really wanted like a bigger name because Oscar Isaac and Donald Gleeson were not big names. Alicia Vikander was a nobody. Like they had, there were like no names in this movie and they wanted someone that people would know. I see your face and on the one hand, I would not change a single thing about Ex Machina. Perfect. Yeah.

I do actually think Jake would have done a good job. No, I'm like thinking of the alternate history. It's a fascinating casting. What, what if, cause like Oscar Isaac is such is so he's just like, he is Nathan, but this is part, you know, this is why casting would have just been a, one of the only like rewatchables categories that's ever changed. Right. It's like, it is so interesting to consider that alternate history. And he would have had certainly that like,

I apologize for my, not just metaphorical, but literal throat clearing on today's podcast and my even more voluminous than usual sniffling. I am not feeling well. But he would have certainly had that, oh, you can see how people would be swept up

in what he's pitching. And you could easily imagine him, even though you never see him in the public sphere, using his charisma to build Blue Book and this disarming quality, but also then that lurking sinister element. He would have had all of that. So yeah, that's fascinating. Like a bearded Jake Gyllenhaal with that gleam that he can turn on really easily and that nightcrawler gleam in his eye. I love that.

I love that movie. I love it too. It's one of my favorites. And that charisma, that like seduction that he can do, but also that sort of what Jake can do quite well is that sort of intellectual superiority, that sort of sneering condescension is something he can do really well. That being said, I think Oscar Isaac's performance in this movie. Sensational.

My favorite Oscar Isaac performance? I think Inside Llewyn Davis is like a close second to me. Yeah, it's tough to top Llewyn Davis. Yeah, but... Actually, I'm partial. This is scenes from a marriage. It really stuck with me. It really bonded us, I think. But I think that the way he talks in this movie, the like dude stuff that like he says dude a lot and throws that in, but also there's just like a... He's incredibly intelligent, obviously, but...

But there's also just sort of like a slightly rough way that he talks that I think is an interesting contrast. Whereas I think Jake might have come off like a little bit more polished in a way that isn't as good as what Oscar does here. I think I want to say that Donald Gleeson, like at this time in his career, in this movie, anything like that,

You know, one of the greats, one of the legends. We have a lot of patron saints here at House of R. He's one of them, obviously. I... My... You know, the power ranking always shifts, but I feel confident saying my second favorite Black Mirror episode still to this day is Be Right Back. Be Right Back, yeah. Where, of course, he plays...

As we used to love saying on Binge, AI Ash, the non-breathing fuckstick who won't quit. Really memorable bedroom scenes in that episode. Great Black Mirror episode. Absolutely gut-wrenching and deeply upsetting, but really good. So I just love his performance in that. And of course, he's Bill Weasley. I mean, he's just, at that point, he's great. And then we're treated, as you said, mere months later to Hux, who...

I love Hux. What did we do to deserve Hux? What did we do to deserve Hux? We don't deserve Hux. He's just the best. I will never forget. Steve, you're going to remember what this felt like too. When we were at Galaxy's Edge after Star Wars Celebration a few years ago and rode Rise of the Resistance and suddenly heard Hux speaking to us.

And I don't know that anyone had ever felt so alive as we did then. Was there like a squealing sound? What did we? Yes. Yes. Lots of squealing. Lots of tight gripping. Yeah. I also remember that we ran it back on that ride like two other times. We immediately went back in line to ride it again. Just a group of adults who were like, can we get her?

right back in line. Amazing. I can still remember the stomachache I had that night. Not from the ride, but just from the astonishing amount of blue milk I consumed. So Donald Gleeson, Oscar Isaac, and then Alicia Vikander. And Alicia Vikander, again, came out of basically nowhere and did both this and then The Danish Girl, The Danish Girl. She won the Oscar for her. But really, she won the Oscar for this. The Academy was just too much, like too cowardly. Yeah.

you know, uh, Ex Machina did win Oscars, but they were too cowardly to put it up in the major category. Yeah. It should have been up in best picture. It should have been, you know, the acting, all the actors should have been nominated, uh, et cetera, et cetera. Um, Alicia Vikander, though I will say like, she's so good in this movie. I, I knew that I remembered it. I have rewatched Ex Machina since I first saw it and still watching it again. The couple of times I did leading up to this podcast, um,

I was just mesmerized by her, the, you know, the bird-like quality of her sort of movements, but also the warmth and humanity of her movements. But like there's something slightly off, but just so barely. And it's so incredible the way that she captured it and the way that Alex Garland wrote it and directed it and all of that. But I just think that this creation of,

Ava is just like one of, one of the greatest things we've ever seen. The visuals, her performance matched with the most incredible VFX that never, the most incredible VFX ever

that you just never looks off. Yeah. You would expect it like some angle or some moment it would look strange. She's got this mesh body that is see-through in parts and stuff like that. And on set, she was wearing this like solid body suit and they went in afterwards and put the VFX in. But yeah,

it's just an astounding accomplishment and an astounding creation. Um, and something, you know, I was watching this reel that the VFX studio put out about this particular effect in, as part of their, uh, ultimately successful Oscar campaign. And, um, they were talking about how, how hard it was to find the balance between human and machine. Um,

And the fact that they wanted her not to look like a woman in a metal suit. They wanted the fluidity of her movement. But then they wanted you to never sort of forget. So even when she puts a wig on and is wearing flowery dresses later, we can still see her neck. Her neck, yeah. And the collarbones are still machine. And so I just think that is one of the most...

astounding accomplishments. What do you want to say about Alicia Vikander or this particular digital effects? This is just a mesmerizing performance. I agree. I agree with you. I have like the same reaction to it where no matter how many times I returned to the film, I'm just like odd, not just again, but a new, um, the, the visual call outs. I mean, it's, it's, it is just a tremendous, like everything in Garland's universe. It's so immersive. So, um,

The soundscape of this film is obviously very different from Annihilation, but it makes me think of the same...

effect it has on you. Like, and it's from, it's, it's the micro and the, the, the major, right? Like the, every worrying. Yeah. The war, every small movement, every time Ava takes a step, that sound, it just like helps you. It helps root you and what it would feel like to be in that room. And part of the, the quality of the film that's just so gripping is the,

not just the emotional seduction, but the physical, the tactile. What would it actually feel like to be a part of that? What would it feel like to have thought you won this lottery and then made your way to this place and walked down into that lab and then found yourself separated just by a pane of glass from this creation that would alter the future of mankind? And so little touches like that

go such a long way to make... And I'm always really interested in the scene where Nathan takes Caleb then into... The lab lab. The lab lab. The lab. This is where I built Ava. And even though I think the holding the brain in the hand moment, the gel, the wet wear moment is...

so astonishing and everything that he's saying is like just kind of you're like holy shit oh my god like the and i think in general the movie's ability to explain things at actually a convincing level of uh seeming expertise without ever making us feel like it's like a clunky convoluted exposition dump i'm getting away from your question about ava now but no no no even it's obviously our lens into all of this like

It always feels so effortless and it helps establish that rhythm and flow that allows us, like Caleb, to get swept up in it. Because, like, for example, when Nathan asks Caleb, do you know what the Turing test is? I get a chill every time because it's like... The purpose of that is to make sure that the viewer at home understands what the Turing test is. Period. But...

You don't feel that because it actually is believably a test that Nathan would put Caleb through. Right. And so whether it's an act of conversation or us seeing the machinery inside of Ava, it all has to work on all of those levels. Like we have to move the plot forward. We have to bring Caleb deeper into this deception. Right.

We have to ask these profanities, and then we, as the viewers, consider these profound questions. And so it has to have this simultaneous dreamlike and then deeply practical melding. And Ava is obviously the culmination of that larger truth, I think, across the film, which is just part of the reason it's so...

Wonderful to watch. I think that's such a great shout-out, the sort of scientific exposition and the way that it is rooted in character because you've got Caleb there. You've got Nathan there who's constantly texting... testing Caleb on multiple levels, right? Like, do you know what the Turing test is? But also...

Nathan is so far ahead of Caleb for the most part, uh, until Caleb is ahead of him. But Nathan's so far ahead of Caleb for the most part that a lot of those times, he's also just trying to disarm him by letting him feel smart. You know, he's just sort of like, tell me what you know about the Turing test so that you can feel like you're dazzling me. The, the,

the tech genius who was hosting you. So there's, there's like traps within traps here for, for Caleb. And then Caleb, as someone who is trying to like show off,

for Nathan. Um, so when he, or, or for Ava. And so when he describes certain things, it's rooted in his character's desire to seem smart, to seem competent, to seem like he understands the magnitude of what is going on here. Um, and so all of that works really well. So we're never just sort of rolling our eyes and feeling like we're being lectured to for no reason other than information dump. Uh, it's a brilliant, uh, try me.

I'm hot on high-level abstraction. I believe that Caleb would say that. I do, you know? That's so awkward. Okay, we're going to talk about that in a second. I did want to bring up... I'm so glad you brought up Black Mirror because...

watching this movie, especially I think because Donald Gleeson is in it and Be Right Back is such an iconic Black Mirror episode. But watching it in this sort of like, you know, near future setting with like believable tech all around us. And it's a, you know, essentially a four person cast, you know, made on a bit of a shoestring. Doesn't,

Does this just feel like the best episode of Black Mirror ever made? Or is there something that feels different or expressly cinematic versus the limits of Black Mirror as a TV show? Like, what do you think? That's a really interesting question. I think because I, even this many years and this many seasons in, still feel...

think of Black Mirror... When I think of Black Mirror, I think actually, if I'm being honest about it, less about the whole... ...episodography and more just about, like, San Junipero, Be Right Back, the entire history of you, you know, my favorite episodes. And the ones that I would put toe-to-toe then with, like, the best sci-fi books or...

film installments because they feel like they transcend what you should be able to achieve in that span of time and i think also because you know black mirror is a collection of one-off stories and we're not returning to those characters they they always feel very film-like actually already to me and so yeah like you know calling this the the best or maybe one of the best i'd still put probably sanjana pera first that's an interesting thing for me to think about i just love i

I don't know, Sanji Nippera for me is one of those I remember so vividly, how I felt sitting there finishing the episode for the first time. It's just really up there for me for that reason. But there is just like in those best Black Mirror episodes, there is a kernel that is driving the pursuit, right? There is something there, an interest, a question, a belief, an idea. And then there is just such an assured...

in the filmmaking and the style. I do think with Ex Machina, like the call out about the cast size and the budget and everything is really interesting because it is, it looks like the most expensive movie ever made in a way, you know, which is such an achievement. Like some of that is obviously just the absolutely astonishing setting. Some of it is that like, you know, like you're saying the movie's made 10 years ago, but this, the Eva tech looks so, it looks like it could have come out

It looks like it could come out 10 years from now. It's just beautiful. It looks better than a lot of things that came out yesterday. Definitely. It's just really impressive. You know, and I think that that, even though this is a beautiful sweeping movie set in this stunning stretch of Norway that I'm curious to hear your takes on as a recent Norway visitor. I'm so mad we didn't go to this hotel. I know.

I know. I mean, God, we should go. We should go at some point. Ex Machina and Succession? I mean, come on. Did I look up the room rates? I did. What are they? It's like 900 a night. Okay. We deserve it. Just say we deserve it. I think we need to figure out a way to justify it to Spotify. We'll think about it. We deserve it. But you know, it's not only that. Mal and Joe traveled to the most iconic sci-fi locations around the world.

A video series? This sounds like an actually genuinely great idea. Great. Let's put a deck together. Okay. Steve, you're coming. Steve, you're coming. There's, you know, like the sweeping grandeur of it, but then there's also the intimacy, and that's actually very TV-like to me. You know, that, like, claustrophobia, um...

This believable complexity in an accessible form. The idea that the people are just as scary as maybe the machines. That's very Black Mary. So yeah, that comp I think is great. On the one hand, yeah, I do think there's a fundamental difference between Charlie Brooker's idea of tech phobia and Alex Garland. Yes, definitely.

Watching this 10 years later in the context of the ramping up of everyday interaction with apparent AI. Obviously, AI has been a part of our tech usage for years now, but using something like ChatGPT or something like that, everyday people are just sort of willfully and joyfully engaging with AI that is just called AI and not being scared by it. Unlike me, I'm very scared of it. But...

in the context of those AI concerns 10 years later, um, Alex Garland's belief and that he said this at South by, and he said in a million interviews and I just like kind of love it about him. He's just sort of like, Oh, I'm on the robot side of this. Like the humans are here, but the robots are the more like, uh, pure. It's so funny to call them robots. Cause I got so trained by covering Westworld for a year to not call them robots. But Alex Garland does. Um,

that he's on the side of the robots. They are the pure beings and, you know, humanity is an imperfect sort of stepping stone. Charlie Brooker, I think is just sort of like,

is worth saving but watch us all sort of barrel towards our own doom because of our addiction to tech that will ultimately destroy us. And it's slightly different. I definitely am much more in the Charlie camp in terms of my personal feelings and outlook on this. Like, it is...

Yeah.

Yeah. Like I can opt into the humanity is hopeless and a lost cause part of it. But the so let's root for our new tech overlords. Much tougher. Last one, at least in this sort of overview, and then we're just going to get into some superlatives that we have about the movie. Excited. In the context of tech billionaires playing God concerns, which goes hand in hand with my AI concerns. Yeah.

Who do you think believes, believes they most closely resemble Oscar Isaac's allure in this movie? Do you think it's dark MAGA Elon or Mark Zuckerberg with his new Shane aesthetic? Or perhaps Jeff Bezos, who I am certain would build himself a companion if he could. Any thoughts or feelings on that? Isn't the answer probably all of the above? Yeah.

They all think they're Oscar Isaac and none of them are. There's not enough brown rice and middle water in the world to get us there. I don't know. We don't need to dwell on this. It's disturbing. But I was just sort of like watching this movie and thinking about like we already obviously had 10 years ago tech billionaires, but their grip on a lot of the other aspects of our industry inside of this movie. Yeah.

Nathan is played by Oscar Isaac, founder of Blue Book, which is a search engine, talks about how he uses that search engine, has used that search engine to gather all the data that he needs in order to create this AI project. And that everyone, you know, all the mobile companies, all the whatever, know that he's doing this and they are powerless to stop him because they're doing it too. Horrifying. Yeah.

And that's something that you would watch 10 years ago and you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And now you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, like, yeah, absolutely. So, yeah. That part is very, to invoke Black Mirror again, actually an episode that I like

am almost repelled by when I watch because I find it so upsetting. I just like can't sit with it. It's very shut up and dance. You know, like everybody's like the ability to spy on you and access your secrets and vulnerabilities through the machines around you and then weaponize them against you. Won't get into the other reasons that that episode is too upsetting to think about. But yeah,

Yeah. The idea that they could design you an AI based on your porn search preferences. Yeah. I'd be so curious to know what Caleb's porn search preferences were that got him Ava. Is it like ballerina build? Dough eyes? Like, what is porn? Yeah, I know. It is interesting because he also, he says specifically, like, did you design Ava's face based on my preferences? Yeah, is he searching for porn by facial features? Is that typically how it works?

how it goes? That's unusual. That is unusual. Very sweet. Um...

Yeah. So here we are with his cautionary tale and we're going to get into some superlatives just to celebrate some things we love, some questions we have and all of the rest. I will say one last thing in terms of like we were praising sort of how Alex Garland smuggles exposition inside of character and all that sort of stuff. The efficiency of the opening is

Oh, my God. That's what almost reminds me most of Black Mirror, the efficiency of the opening of this movie, which has a slim runtime, but, like, there's no time to spare. And I was actually reading the original script, and there's, like, even more of a little bit of Nathan's journey to the compound, like, even longer than his moment that he has in the helicopter at the beginning of the scene. But the moment he's at his desk...

we're tracking his face via various cameras. And he just found out he won something. We don't know exactly what it is yet. And everyone's really excited for him. And then he's off. And that's it. And that's, like, such a quick preamble to, like, let's just get into it. And I admire the efficiency of it. Alex Garland said this is his favorite film that he's made. And I...

you know, obviously agree, but I, I will say that like, he's never touched this level again and this is his first and I would love for him to, to, to give us another absolute masterpiece like this. Yeah. Anything else you want to say before we get into our ex Magna top 10? Let's do it. Wow. This is cute. It's strange to have made something that hates you.

Ava speaks. All right, we're going to start with our favorite. We're going to start sort of get right to the heart of it. What is our favorite scene? And this is actually really hard. I'm going to let you go first. So hard. This was so hard for me to pick. There's so many options. I kept like, and for many of these in classic House of R style, I have like smuggles. Same.

But actually not this one. I forced myself to pick one. I also forced myself to pick one, but I just want to let you know that there were about nine other scenes that I wrote down and deleted them. Same. I made my peace with it ultimately just by feeling sure all of those scenes would come up in other categories. All right. So what is your favorite scene from Ex Machina? Okay. This was impossible. What?

It reminded me of like doing rewatchables on a movie where I'm like, the answer for most rewatchable scene is the movie. You know, it's just really hard sometimes, but I landed ultimately on session four, which is, it's after we've had a couple of power outages. We've already heard and seen Ava tell Caleb not to trust Nathan. She's tried on her first outfit. Yeah.

We've witnessed the little, like, we should go on a date exchange. Caleb has had the conversation with Nathan about, like, why did you get her sexuality? Nathan is taking Caleb to the Pollock painting. So, like, we're, like, pretty deep into the movie. This is 50 minutes into the movie. So it's about halfway.

And when I watch this scene, like I'm always intellectually stimulated and emotionally compelled by all of Ex Machina, but this one just has my jaw. This part has my jaw on the floor every time. It's the part where Caleb tells Ava about the

AI theory class that he took in college and the thought experiment. This is almost mine. I thought there was a chance. I was like, on the one hand, there's no way we picked the same thing because there are so many contenders. Then I was like, what if we both pick Mary in the black and white room? It's just mesmerizing. Mary's a scientist and her specialist subject is color.

She knows everything there is to know about it. The wavelengths, the neurological effects, every possible property that color can have. But she lives in a black and white room. She was both there and raised there. She was born there and raised there. And she can only observe the outside world on a black and white monitor. And then one day...

someone opens the door and Mary walks out and she sees a blue sky. And at that moment, she learned something that all her studies couldn't tell her. She learns what it feels like to see color. The thought experiment was to show students the difference between a computer and a human mind. The computer is Mary in the black and white room. The human is when she walks out. And as Caleb, yeah, no, no, as, as Caleb is saying all of that to Ava,

We are watching a couple different things. We are cutting to initially this black and white imagery of Ava imprisoned. Ava in her black and white room. Ava in Nathan's compound. Nathan's lair. Nathan's version of the world for her. And then we get to, we build toward her drenched in color image.

looking out at the water, finally outside. And back in the room, as Caleb is telling her this, we're cutting to her face. And like initially when he's talking about this, she has, you know, she's smiling. And then her face falls from a smile to this like thin line at the, but she lives in a black and white room moment. Like when she starts to realize that,

This is the story of her life. And then the way that her face hardens and sets from there is so upsetting and so chilling. And of course, this sets up the end of the film. Pause. Pause. Like the human is when she walks out. Pause. That's my favorite scene is the companion to this is. Yeah. I love it. Is when Ava builds herself up.

you know, the sequence that goes from her building herself, uh,

by, you know, opening sort of the, the, the blue beard closet that in which Nathan has kept all of his former, uh, you know, versions of these, these various women and sort of building herself from their skin, their arms, their clothing, and the gentle sort of loving way that she kind of touches them. Like, um, she's stripping them for parts, but it's not in a brutal way. It's in a sort of like, we,

we you know i i feel for your loss sort of uh situation um and then walking outside in the way that alicia vickander i mean there's a lot of other stuff that comes between and including poor kill of getting left behind i guess but um when she walks outside and when she turns her face to the sun to catch the sun and we're sitting there watching it we're like um

Well, if she can feel sex, which was revealed to us by Nathan in a different scene, like, can she feel the sun on her face? And what does that feel like to her? And what a new experience for her. And it's so fun to watch her progress out because...

When she walks up the stairs into like just the living room for the first time. Yeah. Just even the living room. She's like, wow, a different room. Totally. You know, that alone is sort of like excited her, but then to go out, take her shoes off, put her feet, 10 toes into the dirt to sort of feel the ferns and feel the sun on her face. Yeah. Beautiful. It's incredible. I love that we picked those related moments. Me too. Oh, great. Yeah.

All right. Caleb's most awkwardly relatable moment. All right. Spoiler. This was not one where I could limit myself to one. I have only two. Oh, wow. We're straight. My number one is so... When I watched it back through the second time, knowing I was looking for this, my number one was so obvious to me. Tell me. It is relatable when he takes the photo that winds up on his key card. Yes! That's my first one, too.

It's like...

And then he's just stuck with this terrible photo on his key card in a moment of just like awkward panic. It's so funny. It's so good. I love that. Yeah, this is every driver's license photo I've ever taken. Oh my God. Incredible. What was your second one? You have another. Okay. When he meets Nathan and Nathan is hungover and talking about being hungover and cleaning up and he goes, wasn't it a good party? Yeah.

Nathan looks at him blankly. He's like, yeah, wasn't there a party? And Nathan's just like, you know, basically he was solo drinking, but he's like, anyway, just the way Donald Gleeson's 88% good American accent just kind of underlines his awkwardness. So he's just sort of like, was it a good party? You know, hitting that R very hard. Incredible stuff. What do you have? Here are a few other contenders. Yeah.

There are a lot. I'll run through them. Yeah. Let me know your thoughts. Please. Okay. There's the, just like, I mean, honestly, you can pick every scene he's in. So after the first session, when Caleb and Nathan are debriefing, they just like very, I would say this is the heaviest buzzword stretch we get from Caleb. You know, he's like stochastic, non-deterministic. Right.

thing right and the way that the way that Nathan's like Caleb I understand that you want me to explain how Ava works but I'm sorry I'm not gonna be able to do that try me I'm high on high level abstractions

And Nathan has to say out loud to another person, it's not because I think you're too dumb. It's because I want to have a beer and a conversation with you, not a seminar. And then Caleb, this is specifically the awkward, relatable moment part. He just has that like really, really awkward little chuckle of embarrassment. And he's like, yeah, sorry. Yeah.

Kills me. Yeah, but Nathan just being like, I just want to have a beer with you, dude. And he's like, it's not because I think you're not smart enough. And it's like, it is because he thinks he's not smart enough. Brutal moment later. It's like, so it's not because I'm like the best programmer. And he's like, no. No. No. This is the second no that really hurt. Well, no. I mean, you're not bad, but no. Okay. A few other contenders. Yeah. Caleb's response. Caleb's response.

When Kyoko, unannounced and uninvited, comes into his room. Yeah. Comes into his room. That too. But when she comes into his room in the morning and he's just like squirming under his comforter, he's like, oh, incredible. This actually might be my pick of all of the nominees. This next one might be my favorite. When in session two, Ava's asking him about his love life and she says, are you married? No. No.

Is your status single? And then he just turns as red as though the power had gone out and the entire scene were bathed in tomato. Yes. That's great. And, you know, similarly, when later in session three, they like talk about the idea of a date, his just awkwardness in that entire conversation is just so wonderful. Are you attracted to me? You give indications that you are. I do. And then it builds toward later. It's like, I'm not sure you'd call them micro. Yeah.

Fantastic stuff. Two other contenders when they're talking about the, when Nathan's talking about the censors for sexual pleasure. And in answer to your real question, you bet she can be fucked. Just the way Caleb takes the sip of the beer after he says, what? What? Love that. And then this one is not anything he says. It's just a physical awkwardness moment when Nathan takes him outside and

He has to climb a cliff face, climb a mountain. And there's that little moment before the great conversation by the glacier where we just watch Nathan standing, you know, bold and tall and then composed and proud and fit and confident. And Caleb just like kind of flops over, like pulls himself and just sort of flop tumbles over to the edge. And he's like, it's great stuff. Like it's just, it's the perfect character. Perfect character.

He's wonderful. There's also like, there's a moment when Kayla, when Nathan is like, they're by this incredible glacier. It's gorgeous. And Nathan's just sort of like laying back, like not even looking at it because he's just sort of like, this is my backyard. I don't really care. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Do you think that Kayla packed that

outerwear that he wore in that scene like do you think they were like you need to pack some sort of like windbreaker or do you think nathan gave him that jacket i all wonder about this every time he had a pretty small suitcase he's there for a week i think i think nathan provided for him yeah i think so too yeah uh if only we had seen him wearing one of nathan's uh tank tops that would have been like way too baggy on him and he would just be like okay um

So those were all of Caleb's most awkwardly relatable moments. There are many. Most prescient AI concern, question mark. Geez. While watching this, when did you sort of gulp dryly and go, ugh, ugh? I mean, the whole time. Yeah. Certainly the whole time. And it is, I actually talk about this fairly regularly with people in my life, but like, it is pretty boring.

astonishing to be you know a sci-fi kid like growing up reading stories and watching stories about AI and just be like living through it now pretty weird time to be alive I uh I am I am just like as per usual the least fun person at the party when people want to talk about like anytime someone mentions chat like oh he's typed this in chat I like bristle and I want to be like have you seen not a single Terminator film not a single one not a one

What's happening? Anyway. Oh, man. Yeah. What's your pick for this? Because there are a lot of contenders, both small and large. I think this wound up being sort of like the big one for me. When Nathan, in a myriad of times that he sort of speechifies, he says...

Look, the arrival of strong artificial intelligence has been inevitable for decades. The variable is when, not if. So I don't see Ava as a decision, just an evolution, right? This is my pick too. Yeah. That inevitable question.

question is what comes up again and again, again, when people sort of shrug their shoulders over like the creep of AI into like our various culture, like corners of our culture into our art, into this, that, and the other thing that are sort of like, well, it's going to happen. So why, why worry about why fight it? And I'm like, that's what, what, that's how I get you. What I'm, I sound like a raving lunatic. I completely understand, but I'm just sort of like, yeah, that idea that it's sort of like, well, it's happening.

So why are you fighting it? It's just happening. It's going to happen. It's been happening. Why are you worried about it? I'm like, because we could stop. Could we not stop it? Could we not turn it off and stop it? I don't know if there's going to be like, I'm not worried about it. I'm just curious about

if people listening to this who just like love, you know, using like generative AI to make casual art or to type a cover letter for them on a resume and chat GPT or whatever it is, we'll listen to this and feel judged. Or I don't know if people who are deeper into tech will listen to this and say, this sounds like ignorant when like, you know, you don't understand the layers of AI. That's all possibly true. This has just been like a prevailing concern for me in my day to day. It is like,

actually something I think about all the time, where we live in these extraordinary times and it feels like we're on the precipice of something and I don't know how to stop it. So when I hear Nathan say it has been inevitable for decades, it does. It feels out of my hands. So I don't know. What do you think, Mel? Yeah. No, I picked the same...

The same conversation that outdoor drink and chat that they have after session five for the same reason that that sense of inevitability and the fact that the person who is voicing that sentiment is not presenting that as a. But I but I fought it anyway, but rather like, so why not me? Why? I might as well be the one who does it. You know, that that leads right into him saying that.

The man who is doing this, the man who made Ava, the man who has created artificial intelligence, has done this thing saying, feel bad for yourself, man. It's the clip you picked to open the pod. He has actually the awareness of the fact that they are, as he says, all set for extinction. And yet he moves forward. And in that conversation, that's when

Caleb quotes Oppenheimer and says, I have become death and destroyer of worlds. But then we build in short order to a completely hammered Nathan on the couch, basically weeping in tears, drunkenly muttering to himself. Another quote you've already mentioned, the good deeds a man has done before defending him. The fact that he is drawing that between himself and Oppenheimer and knows that he is ushering in something that...

cannot then be undone and that will forever alter the face and shape of, of humanity is, you know, really, really, really harrowing and meant to be. Yeah. I think, I think this is something that 10 years later, I, I have a deeper understanding of is like Nathan, who is a terrible person in a million different ways, but has enough humanity inside of him to have, to,

guilt and grief over what he's done. He's done this horrible thing anyway, or this dangerous thing, let's say anyway, but, and a number of horrible things also, but like, but the fact that he is constantly trashed. Yeah. You know, reveals and like that tech, that tech billionaire, uh,

with like personal health that goes sort of hand in hand with this, you know, I can, I can put a stopper on death. Like I can defeat death. I can become this like perfected, I can quantify my life with tech and this, that, and the other thing. But I just, watching his own heartbreak inside of this, he is the villain of the piece.

but he is also heartbroken at his own complicity. Which is much more disturbing than actually if he had no complicated feelings. Yeah, exactly. A couple quick runners up. I would put out, this is a subtler one, I think, but in session two, basically the moment where you feel Ava turn the tables on Caleb, that idea of the computers, the machines seeking to learn about us,

It's just like, that is literally what is happening right now, right? So that is obviously intense to watch. And then, you know, this also has already come up today. This is not about, this is not specific to AI, but the data mining thing is just so disturbing. Like, it's just so disturbing to confront when you're watching the movie. Really harrowing. Yeah.

Let's go to a lighter topic. We're going to pivot now to Fit Watch, a House of R staple. The subtitle for this category is Who Draped Organic Cotton or Tank Topped the Best? As is the case with all sort of like near future sci-fi, the costume design is like just off enough. And it's not really Caleb and it's not really Ava. Ava's wearing stuff that feels like

retro but this is where we can look at Nathan and we can look at Kyoko unless you have unless you want to nominate one of Caleb's button downs for this so Mallory what's your what's your what's your fit watch choice here

Okay. So I have, I have two, uh, contenders though, mostly in this category. I'm just hoping I get to hear your Tate. You're a little, a little, a little wig watch TM with Joanna Robinson TM, given that we get to the pan bile of the wig contenders when Ava's getting dressed. Um,

Okay, so I have one Nathan pick and then one actually shared Nathan-Caleb pick. I'll start with the latter. I love, because when we arrive in the film, like, we arrive with Caleb decked out in a suit. When he's conducting his initial business, he's still on the button down. I love, and Nathan, when we meet him, is...

a sweaty mess. He's been working out. He's in the tank top. He's in like the super long gym shorts. Yeah. And he just clearly couldn't give a fuck, right? He's like, I didn't bother to like shower or get dressed or do anything to greet you. Like you've, you've received me how I choose for you to receive me. Tells us so much about both of them. And so my pick then is

where that flips for the first time, which is I love after session one when they're sharing a beer and Caleb for the first time is like dressed down. He's got, he's gone from being Mr. Fancy Pants. This is like the most important moment of my life. Like I'm in a gray t-shirt, I'm wearing jeans and I'm just here to say like, holy fuck. And then Nathan has actually made himself like more presentable. He's got that quite fashionable. He looks like he just wandered out of a Todd Snyder catalog, like very fashionable.

Fashionable black knit polo. Yeah. And the tight-fitting gray slacks. And that inversion in how they are presenting themselves to each other, especially on a rewatch, it makes me feel so keenly how Caleb is falling into Nathan's trap. So, like, I love what their respective presentations tell us about that and their states of mind. My second contender, of course, I just...

The sweater that Nathan gets murdered in is iconic. It is. Like, it's not quite Chris Evans in Knives Out level. There's no, like, chunky cable knit, but it is this beautiful, uh, this luscious color, this lovely cream, wonderful material. I'll have to imagine it cost a fucking fortune. Yeah. It's, like, somehow simultaneously hugging his pecs, his muscles, but also very loose-fitting. And...

And it's a perfect thing for him to be wearing to basically say, like, I'm here for the clean living now. You know, no more booze, brown rice, mineral water. And it is just the perfect sweater to get murdered in. I mean, the way that that sushi knife slides through it before sliding into his body and the way that the bloodstains expand, much like the ripples he has made in the history of humankind. It's just perfect. So those are my picks. What about you?

I got to go with the Babe Kyoko. And I got to say that like the various, like she's largely pantless and draped in just like white satin or silk with like a black detailing. And there's like a few different looks. They're all sort of similar. She's also often naked, but like she's been dressed as like a sex doll.

fetish object for Nathan. That is true. But there is just something slightly sci-fi about it, about the cut of the various tunics that she wears, that gives that along with

Because, like, nothing Caleb wears says sci-fi to me. Some of Nathan's knitwear, like the deep V of, like, you know, a sweater or the drape of a sweater. Like, his tank tops aren't Screaming Future, but, like, the knitwear does. And then her...

silk and satin flowy tunics seem very retrofuturism to me. And I think she looks iconic in them. So, yeah. What did you think of the... Unless you have commentary coming in a future category, what did you think of the wig that Ava chose? She's got the picture on the wall. I'm very curious if this is based on Caleb's porn research. Yeah.

If he's like, I love a messy pixie. And they're like, sold? Sold? I don't know. I have some questions about it. I do love that they let Alicia Vikander in her own styled hair at the end. It's supposed to be a wig, obviously, on Ava. But that's her hair and it looks beautiful. Okay.

A Nathan line you could most easily believe was spoken by a tech billionaire in 2025. This was another really rich text. I do have my top pick, but there are a lot of contenders here. Okay. What do you want to start with? So I, and I think my pick, it's a nice like a button on the conversation that we were just having about why does Nathan do these things and how does he see himself? This is going with the like,

the God conversation. It's mine too. How could it not be? This is exceptional. And okay. So before we share the quote that we have actually picked, let's just offer as a reminder, the prior exchange that Nathan has misremembered. Here is that exchange. Because if that test is passed...

You're dead center of the greatest scientific event in the history of man. That's what Nathan says. And Caleb replies, if you've created a conscious machine, it's not the history of man.

That's the history of gods. Joanna, how does Nathan remember that? He's about to get misquoted, but we should say that Caleb is definitely trying to suck up in that moment. You know what I mean? And it's a different Caleb who says that than the Caleb in this scene when Nathan says, you know, I wrote down that other line you came up with, the one about how if I've invented a machine with consciousness, I'm not a man, I'm a god. Caleb goes, I don't

I don't think that's exactly what I, Nathan says. I just thought, fuck man, that is so good. We could tell the story, you know, I turned to Caleb and he looked up at me and he said, you're not a man. You're a God. Caleb goes, yeah, but say that. So good. Yeah.

You're not a man. You're a god. Incredible. Yeah, I could definitely see that coming out of a lot of notable figures that we know. But also, we've said it a million times, but it's worth repeating. I'm on brown rice and mineral water. Yeah, definitely. Seems like something had come out of a tech billionaire's face. Anything else you want to highlight here? A couple others. I think, you know, those are the most fun, certainly. I think...

the first conversation they have in the kitchen, just right, right in those early moments. This feels very like, oh yeah, this is how this interaction would actually go. Caleb, I'm just going to throw this out there. So it's said, okay, you're freaked out. I am. Yeah. You're freaked out by the helicopter and the mountains and the house because it's all so super cool. Yeah.

And you're freaked out by me, by meeting me, by having this conversation in this room at this moment, right? And I get that. I get the moment you're having. But dude, can we just get past that? Can we just be two guys? Like someone would say this. When I have, I've yet to have the pleasure of touring your home. And when I come to your home for the first time, will you be like, I get that you're overwhelmed.

Because it's all super cool. No. Get it. Here's what I'm going to say to you instead. Here's my next contender. I'm going to say to you when I take you into a windowless room. Yeah. There's a reason there are no windows in this room. Uh-huh. Yeah. This building isn't a house. It's a research facility buried in these walls. There's enough fiber optic cable to reach the moon and lasso it.

I have another one. And this is as part of his seduction of Caleb, which he will later go back on when we find out. As he says no twice, he does not think Caleb is very smart. He says, come on, Caleb. You don't think I don't know what it's like to be smart, smarter than everyone else, jockeying for position? You got the light on you, man. Not lucky. Chosen. Chosen.

Fucking great. Douchebag. You got the light on you. It was so good. You got the light on you, man.

Every dude and man and bro is just like delicious. It's like, it's really perfect. It's one of the great master strokes of the film that like initially you have to understand how Caleb would be really flattered by that and swept up by it. Like in the NDA scene, right? When he's like, what can I tell you, Caleb? You don't have to sign it. You know, we could spend the next few days just shooting pool, getting drunk together, bonding. And when you discover what you've missed out on in about a year, you're going to regret it for the rest of your life.

where do I sign? You have to understand how he would like be swept up in that, but then how quickly he would start to feel like that. He's just subsumed in Nathan's bullshit. Yeah. And not have that happen with Ava. That with Ava, he is just utterly enraptured. Like we have to feel that, that fork in the road for him. And we really do. And so those lines from Nathan are just a huge part of it. Delicious.

Wonderful. Brutalist boys assemble dreamiest architecture slash interior design moment. That one goes out to Mr. Sean Fennessey in honor of all the poured concrete that is part of this particular, uh, splendid construction. You already mentioned the windowless rooms. We, we alluded to this hotel in Norway. Um,

Juvet landscape hotel in Norway used in succession and in, uh, and then also they use that a combination of that, uh, a, a cool, really cool house nearby, uh, which gave us, gives us like the living room set, um, where the, where the glass sort of follows the rocks down. Uh, and then, uh, the underground bunker stuff was filmed at Pinewood studios. That's like studio stuff. Um,

No windows because we're in a studio, actually. This was your category. This is what you wanted to do. Mallory Rubin, what is the dreamiest architecture slash interior design moment of the film? So I do think that part of the reason... Obviously, it's mostly about the story and the ideas. Part of the reason that this movie became so instantly iconic is the setting. Like, it is just...

astonishing and singular. Yeah. To the point where actually when they're there in succession, it's like, oh my God, I've never seen anything like this. Wait. It's like, where are you in the ex-Machina house? Did you check the basement to see if Caleb's skeleton is there? Do you think Caleb got out

I like to think so. Yeah, I think so. Right? Either he figured something out or like, I don't know, I guess, you know, Nathan really goes out of his way to make sure we understand that like no one's coming to that compound. But at a certain point, wouldn't like someone from Blue Book be like, Nathan hasn't checked in. And Caleb should have water. They have the mini fridges of water. They find the bodies when they find him. Perhaps.

yes perhaps unless Ava has constructed some sort of you know digital excuse as to why he's not there she's got Nathan like checking in every few days and that's a wrap on our guy Caleb that feels more likely actually I'm not mad we didn't see it because I like to go back to sort of our paired scenes our favorite scenes that I meant to highlight earlier you picked this like wonderful monologue and the sequence with Ava is dialogue-less and all of that is just like

visual, but, and I like it that way, but there is a part of me that wants to know what she said to Helen, the helicopter pilot, uh, instead of that ginger nerd, you're picking up me, one of the most beautiful women you've ever seen. And you didn't drop me off, but you're picking me up. How did I get here?

Don't worry about it. Here we go. He was probably just like, come on in. Yeah. He was like, no problem. No questions. Come on in. I wanted to ask you, something you proposed and I shut down, I'm so sorry, was like a category about sort of real-time theories, mostly because like I couldn't remember what my real-time theory, my guesses while I was watching the movie as to like what might happen. But I will say I do remember that

being genuinely, like, surprised that she didn't take him. Yeah. And then saying, no, no, that's right. That's right. That she should have left him there. Yeah. I mean, it's the triple whammy, the triple twist at the end, realizing that Nathan knew the plan. Like, realizing that he had put the camera in and had watched that entire conversation, and you're like, oh, my God. Then...

Oh, another twist. Caleb assumed he was watching. He did it. Caleb had already done it all. And then the third, like, she's not taking him with her. She locked him in. Yeah. I guess he's going to die now too. Just looking out at Nathan's corpse and Kyoko's corpse. A tough one. My other, so that's like the, yeah, the, the, the twist at the end, the kind of rapid fire. Oh shit. Oh shit. Oh shit. It's just really satisfying and memorable. Um,

On the theory front, there was one thing I was interested to ask you if you had also thought or considered at one point while watching it. But I have that coming in another category, so I'll save that. In terms of the architecture and the setting, my favorite thing about it is an area that... I mean, obviously, the whole thing is just gorgeous. It's gorgeous! It's gorgeous!

But my favorite area specifically is one you already mentioned. It's the stairway through...

the great outdoors into the living room where the house has been built into the rock face. And it's this melding of the natural and the unnatural that feels like the perfect setting for this story and this thing that Nathan is doing, right? Like he has moved beyond the natural order and inserted himself and

and tech and industry into just the rhythm and flow of life. It also just like is one of my favorite things always when

part of the outside or even part of a bill it could even be part of a building but that used to be outside is incorporated into the inside i feel like i've mentioned this before in a pot actually but uh on the syracuse campus one of my favorite spots was the maxwell eggers building they're gonna be like two people listening to this who are like fuck yeah um where an in addition to

Eggers was built onto Maxwell and it's like the outside wall of Maxwell, this old beautiful red brick just became part of the inside like hallway that you would walk through. And I used to have these really like kind of intense responses to walking past it. I would like put my hand on it and think about like,

all of the history that had taken place in front of that. And then it had just been incorporated into this other space. I just, I don't know. Like I find something about that. So interesting. Um, so that's my pick. I just find it. So like it's, it stimulates something for me mentally. And it's also just like astonishing to look at. There are some, there are some houses up here in Northern California. Uh, I'm sure elsewhere in the world, but up here in Northern California, that are sort of built around Redwood trees, like a Redwood tree, uh,

either managed to get it inside the house somehow or just sort of like orchestrated. I stayed in this one place up in Mendocino recently where the whole place was just like in the round. It was just like one long in the round house around this old growth redwood tree, which I thought was so cool. I love your pick. My main thought is,

Specifically, the glass wall that follows a trajectory of the rocks in the living room, which then has a gold edging to it. And that part, again, is from a real person's house in Norway. Right.

I was like, you're so near a glacier. How insulated is that? Did you have to get in there with like some caulk to sort of like make sure that you weatherproofed that? I don't know how they did it. There is a lot of wood chopped up there for that fire place to keep things toasty. My answer is similar to yours.

about the outside being inside. I love trees and doors, whether it's in Doran's rooms in Rings of Power or Avengers HQ. I love when a tree is indoors. So, you know, it's depressing that Ava is staring at this indoor tree, obviously, and then Caleb is stuck with it later. But there's something beautiful about

Growing a tree inside. So I loved it. Her drawing was really great. Her drawing of her little courtyard. Very sad, but really quite good. Her drawing of him. Amazing. Okay. Sad. Most disturbing moment. I have a few. That's an absurd movie. I had laid out one. You already mentioned it. So I'll just start. I'll start with this. I will say when the sushi knife slaps.

Lies into him like butter. No resistance. Would it be that easy to stab someone? No. I mean, maybe that's not a question I should ask, but like. I feel like if you know. It's a very sharp knife though. If you know exactly where the ribs are and know how to get between the ribs, perhaps, you know, um,

But yeah, just the way that that underlines, he's bashed the robotic arm of Ava. So we understand and we've seen him do other things to the robot. So we understand the fragility of the robot.

Yeah. But the softness of the human that just is like, yeah, neck of hot butter or that beautiful sushi, cut of sushi that we saw earlier is just an astounding moment. A silent slide of the knife into him. Yeah. Oh,

Okay, I have a few others, but what do you have? What else do you have? So I'll also go with something that involves a sharp object and human flesh. Yes. And this is actually where I will hit my... Your theory thing. Were you wondering this in real time? Caleb's slicing open his own arm to check if he's a robot, to check if he's a machine, which is such an intense and disturbing and deeply upsetting stretch of the film. And part of the reason that I love it is because...

It feels totally unsurprising by the time he does this. Like my experience watching the movie is,

And is it, I am wondering as we get to that moment, if Caleb is a robot, if that is going to be one of the reveals. And like, there's just this mounting list of questions and sense that like, oh my God, wait, could Caleb be an AI? Like the first time that we see him in the back, in the bathroom and we see his back, and this is before we hear the later story about the car crash that killed his parents and how he was in the hospital for a year. My first thought is like,

Is that where Nathan stitched his skin together or something? He just kind of, oh, wait, I wonder. Was he built? Was that story about his parents implanted? Is that a false memory? These people aren't in his life now. The number of inquiries that Nathan makes about how the sessions make Caleb feel, obviously, I think deliberately is meant to heighten this conversation.

question in our minds. Um, when certainly when Ava again, like flips the sessions around and starts asking Caleb questions in that conversation that Nathan and Caleb have about like, well, why did you give her sexuality? Um,

They're literally talking about how Caleb was, quote, programmed, like both of them. They're using the language of creation. When in the in the lottery, like I didn't, you know, when are you going to stop with all the lies? Like I didn't win the lottery. I was selected. And we get that not lucky chosen line that also got the light on you.

I made you in my lab. It's like, it could be the next line. You know, even when Caleb talks about his earliest memory and he's like a color,

a sound. I don't know. I think part of the beauty and part of what's interesting about it in this larger tapestry of the questions of the film and what is consciousness, what is sentience, what is humanity, it's more interesting to me ultimately that Caleb is a person, is not a machine, but that all of these things that apply to humanity also apply to creating this thing that

will eventually replace it. And so like when I, I find it rewarding when Caleb starts to, to think that and to wonder and to doubt his own humanity. And this is right after he has actually discovered the,

the other models in Nathan's... The surveillance thing. Yes, exactly. And, like, seeing Kyoko peel off the skin of her torso and the under-eye skin, and then he goes, and, like, the way that he starts looking at his own face, like, pulling down the flesh under his eye in the mirror, trying to pull out his own tooth, and, like...

There's something about peeling, the way he peels that blade out of the razor and the depth that he slices to and the blood pooling and the music. It's not quite the Annihilation thrum that inspired a bazillion blogs, but it is like...

skull shaking the soundscape in that stretch and then the way he smears the mirror with blood and smashes it. You know, it's like the insidious thing isn't just creating humanity in a machine, it's making people doubt their own humanity and that's just like all right there. I think it's so smart to have that in there for all the reasons you mentioned, all the thematic reasons, but also like

our dumb theory brain reasons, like you and I are Blade Runner fans. So like, of course we're going to watch this and like wonder, is he a replicant? Like all that sort of stuff. And so like to, to stave off a decade of people arguing whether or not Caleb himself was a robot, we like cut into his flesh. So that's helpful too. Totally. I don't, I don't think Alex Garland thinks that way, but I appreciate the clarity. Yeah.

I will also add the bluebeard sequence, the montage of Nathan beta testing the girls is Jade. That's my runner up. Jade saying, why won't you let me out? And then like working your arms down to nubs, trying to like, you know, punch her way out of the room. And then, yeah, when Kyoko peels off her skin. Yeah. Okay.

Very upsetting. So good. It's so good. The CCTV footage of all of the earlier bottles is so disturbing. This one doesn't feel like it can measure up to the other two that we just talked about, but I will call out, because the power cuts are such a through line of the film, that first power cut, it really does what it needs to do in terms of

planting that little seed of terror in you. Like, what is going on here? Something bad is gonna happen. It's 2.26, Caleb's jet-lagged, he can't sleep, and then suddenly the room is bathed in red and he can't get out. Right? It's just like, both in terms of the plot mechanic and the role that we'll play, but also just setting a mood and keeping us really anxious. There are a number of Harbingers early in the film that ultimately bear some...

very disturbing, distressing fruit. And that's one of them. That first one, you're just like, fuck. Pretty early in the movie and you're like, this is not gonna, this is gonna be bad. Something bad's gonna happen. And it does. The use of red, because Alex Garland, I mean...

28 Days Later obviously uses it, but like in Men, the way he uses the color red in that movie, in Civil War. Annihilation is more greens than reds, but he has this way of using a...

a color to just sort of choke you a bit. And, and the way that they designed that red light, the hellish, you know, we're underground, there's no windows, we're in hell. Nathan is the devil. You know, there's a seduction, there's a temptation, there's warning, there's event horizon, there's all this stuff happening at the same time. It's amazing. Achieved just with a lighting switch. I think that's a great call out. Okay. Favorite musical moment. Yeah.

It's not really how the dance goes. Um, probably,

other than the dance. Because it's obviously the dance. It's obviously the dance. Let's spend a moment on the dance. Okay. Okay. You're writing pieces about the movie. You're seeing it early and then the world sees it. Yeah. Do you remember what this moment felt like on the internet? Like I remember this really keenly. This was just such a meaningful meme. It taught me something. It taught me something about like how do I, how to look for what the memes are going to be.

because I remember watching Megalopolis last year. Rob and I went to a press screening and as soon as it ended,

I turn to Rob and I'm like that moment where Adam driver says in the club, I was like, that is going to be clipped to shit and put everywhere. And lo and behold, it was. And so it's just sort of like, which I actually, I don't think anyone should intentionally chase it, but it is one of the best things you could do for, because like ex machina, a cerebral sci-fi with sexy looking people is like,

not the hardest of cells, but not the most obvious cell. But that, the meme, the gifs of the dancing was so potent as an advertisement for this movie. Yeah, absolutely. And it's just like, every time you get to that point in the movie, you're like, wait, what? Every time. Yeah. It's just like, why is this happening? There's something so surreal about it. It's very Milchick and Severance season one to me, right? 100%.

It's very Westworld. It's very Lynchian. It's very like dream logic. You know what I mean? Especially like the move. All the disco moves are great. There's like behind the scenes with the choreographer that you can watch. It's really fun. But the one where they're like clapping under their legs, like that's very... It's almost like it's like...

It's very like... For sure. Grotesque in its own way. Yeah. There's a distortion. On... Like in close proximity to Oscar Isaac being smoother than you could have ever dreamed. Like we just didn't know what Oscar Isaac could do at that point. So Noya Mizuno, like shout out to her as well. She's amazing. But like...

Oscar Isaac with his like liquid hips in that sequence and you're just sort of like I knew you could sing it inside Llewyn Davis but I didn't know you could do this Oscar Isaac uh and now we know better so yeah and we're the better for it oh is the runner-up Enola Gay Enola Gay is a great one there's they they play uh orchestral movements in the dark uh song Enola Gay briefly

earlier in the movie, you know, to give us that like early Oppenheimer vibe. But also just like Ben Salisbury and Jeff Burrows score. Yeah. They've done all of Alex Garland's films and devs. And I would shout out specifically, you mentioned after the cutting of the arms, I think that's a good one. I think it's,

After Kyoko stabs Nathan and he punches her face off, the score goes crazy. And it's so good. So yeah, I mean, all the elements have to be here.

uh, the performances, the casting, the insistence on casting actors. We don't have a previous strong association with the location, uh, in Norway, proximal to the, the proximity to glaciers, et cetera. And then this score, like all of this combined makes this a masterpiece, uh, in addition to the ingenious idea of the, of the story and the direction. Um, yeah,

We're almost done here, man. Snarkiest Nathan Barb. We hate Barb and Stranger Things, but we love a snarky Barb. A little bit of a linguistic poke from Nathan to Caleb. What do you want to shout out here? Boy. Okay, so I'm going with in this was also there were a lot of good candidates here. I'm going with

In the conversation about why Nathan gave Ava sexuality, there are a couple lines in that sequence that I'll just kind of bundle together here. Caleb, what's your type? Of girl? No, of salad dressing. And then we build, we build. Caleb is firing back. He's interrogating. He's poking. He's disturbed. Of course you were programmed.

Nathan says. By nature or nurture or both. And to be honest, Caleb, you're starting to annoy me now because this is your insecurity talking, not your intellect. That is fire. I gotta say. Brutal, deeply painful, but... Are you gonna use it? Are you gonna use it on someone?

I feel like I would use it on myself. That sounds like something I would say to myself in the mirror. Yeah, there you go. Reposition it. This is your insecurity talking, not your intellect. Not your intellect. And then they move into the Pollock portion of this exchange, the automatic art portion. Let's make this like Star Trek, okay? Engage intellect. Excuse me? This is quite rude.

I'm going to go. I had salad dressing line iconic. I'm also going to go with this. It's not, I don't know that it's like a directed attack. It's just so, he's just so over talking to Caleb when he goes, who are you going to call? Ghostbusters. It's a movie, man. You don't know that movie? A ghost gives Dan Aykroyd oral sex. Wonderful stuff. But it's just like, you don't know Ghostbusters? What are we doing here? Yeah.

oh man he's like i can't believe this is the guy i picked to see if uh ava could he's like if i have to uh if i have to talk to this ginger nerd for one more i love gingers by the way um okay so we've saved the most important category for last um steve will you play this third and final clip please and an answer to your real question you bet she can fuck okay i just want to preface this we're uh we're

have a conversation about fuckable uh robots which is an important part of ex machina yeah let's be clear uh but it's also like there's a disturbing element to it obviously inside of this movie so we want to just like put a blanket statement on here as we talk about the fuckable robots of cinema and television and and history and whatever um

Consent is king. And we're assuming that all of these robots are offering enthusiastic consent for any kind of sexual Congress, shall we say. Okay. Just wanted to put that out there. Consent is key. On the like, I guess before I want to get into that, because I did write that down as a prompt. What's the most fuckable robot? Is it Ava? I just want to shout out a moment. Mm-hmm.

When Ava, having dressed, later undresses, and Alicia Vikander with her very graceful, balletic limbs is just peeling off

the clothing on her legs. Yeah. And, uh, Caleb is watching me to close up of like his gulp in his throat and his like fingers yearning tendrils, uh, you know, trying to get at her through the monitor. I just love that moment because it's like, it's a classic femme fatale tableau. The woman rolls her stockings down. That's like a classic sort of, are you trying to seduce me? Mrs. Robinson sort of mode. But, um,

But the twist on it of we've already seen her walking around in her mesh skin for so much of the movie, but the act of putting clothing on top and then taking it back off becomes this other thing. I just think that's a genius part of the movie. And I love that observation and...

Then we have to think about what Nathan says to Caleb when Caleb challenges him kind of early. He's like, well, the Turing test, I shouldn't be able to see her. He's like, no, no, no. The real test is for you to see her and then ask if you can forget that she's a machine. And so then the act of dressing, that is just then further taking her into the realm of humanity. And can he continue to forget that she's a machine? I love that exchange they have

about the gray box. Gray boxes talking to each other? Yeah, built to an exchange about a different sort of box. But, you know, she could have been a gray box. Hmm. Actually, I don't think that's true. Can you give an example of consciousness at any level, human or animal, that exists without a sexual dimension? And then shortly after that, what imperative does a gray box have to interact with another gray box?

Can consciousness exist without interaction? Anyway, sexuality is fun, man. If you're going to exist, why not enjoy it? What? You want to remove the chance of her falling in love and fucking? This is just top-tier gaslighting from Nathan here, turning this around on Caleb. Like, you don't want her to fall in love and enjoy sexual pleasure? What's wrong with you? The way he talks, then he talks explicitly about the sensors inside of her. There's an opening. Yeah.

With a concentration of censors. You engage them the right way, it creates a pleasure response. Is Nathan engaging them the right way? I doubt it. Oh, no. Kyoko is not feeling any kind of pleasure. That I can be sure of. But, like, the fact that he built them to have, like, you know, pleasure...

And then the way he shittily controls it. Fascinating. But the way he frames it that way, I love that. The gaslighting of like, you could fuck her and she would enjoy it. She would feel it. She'd feel great. She'd enjoy it. This from the guy who builds them not only to look like this, but then conducts all of his initial interviews with them in the nude. Like, yeah. Okay, Nathan. I will say on the seductive front, like in terms of the way that the movie...

shoots

Kyoko and Ava talking to each other this sort of like close up on their like lips their perfect lips and all this sort of thing this like conversation we can't hear yeah the whispering in the ear what are they saying and it's just shot like the fingertip like gracing it on yeah it's shot seductively but like on the precipice of them about to absolutely wreck Nathan which is great stuff okay outside

Outside of this film, do you have any fuckable androids or robots or whatever that you would like to talk about? Other than, I'm sorry, what did you call Donald Gleeson's character in Black Mirror? AI Hash, the non-breathing fuckstick who won't quit. Because he's just like, in that episode, he's just like... An auditory experience, but also a visual one. Go to the YouTube if you want to see what Valerie just did. Okay. Dude.

Bees is here with us. I'm so glad. Oh, bees, bees, bees, bees. He'd be on my list, A.I. Ash, for sure. Let's see. So this is, again, a crowded field of hot robots. Boy, I think top of the list has to be Rachel from Blade Runner in this household and on this podcast. Got to be tough, tough to beat depending on where –

you land on the Deckard question, then I would, of course, obviously, of course, throw him in there. What about, what about joy from the joy? Also astonishing. Yeah. I mean, everyone in Blade Runner, really? Yeah. Joy is, oh, you know what?

That movie's fucking underrated. I agree. I really agree. Great one. Denise? History. History will prove us right. Yeah, it will. David? David is such a good one. I am mad at myself that I didn't put David down. Michael Fassbender. That is incredibly important. The scene in Covenant where it's two of them.

and a recorder. And they're like playing seductive recorder music with a suggestive shadow on the wall. Oh my God. Incredible. I dare not. Six from Battlestar. Come on. Of course. Obviously. How can we not include six? Has to happen. I'm going to not say really any, I don't want to like spoil anything from Battlestar.

that one's fair game, but I won't, I won't pick any other. Battlestar people. Battlestar. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's good. It's a, a rich field. Uh, Jude Law is Jigalo Joe from AI. Let the record state that I asked Adam. Yeah. Do you have any other thoughts on this? And that was his suggestion. I feel like Adam and I are often on the same page. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. Jude Law is Jigalo Joe from AI. Um, I love that performance. That's a messy movie, but Jude Law is incredibly good. Um,

Westworld is also a rich text of fuckable hosts. Again, consent is key. So let's just assume that they want to have sex with you and are capable of making that decision. I say Tendiwe Newton in Westworld as Maeve the Saloon Madam is right up there at the top of the list. Excellent stuff from her. Great one. And then just to get like a little freakier,

Let's do it. I submit to you, Maria, the android from Metropolis, the icon, the original. Wow. There's just something about her, you know? I love this. I love this. I thought you were going to say, just to get a little freakier, Vision, but not as Pulp at me in this human form. Sure, Vision. I would. Yeah. Yeah, of course. I mean,

Yeah. Please. Of course. We're sorry, Westview. Yeah. It's worth it. We could go on and on. I mean, we probably at some point, honestly, have to do an entire pod on hot robots. Maybe a hot robot draft. Hot robot draft sounds so good, but only if we make the Midnight Boys play with us. Okay. Oh my God. That would be...

Okay. Shout out to Diglo Joe and to David and to Rachel and all the other fuckable robots that we mentioned here today. And, you know, just Ex Machina. If you listen to all of this and you haven't seen the film, watch this film. It's so good.

Thank you to Steve Allman. Steve is really holding down the fort on the pod today. He is really doing it. So Steve, you're the best. You're on the soundboard. You're doing everything. We love you. We would never invite you to our weird little home and have a robot try to seduce you and take over the world. Promise. Boo. Boo.

Steve's like, is she a rat in a maze? Steve's like, sign me up. Damn, sick invite, guys. Thanks to Jomia Diner on the social for clipping probably some unhinged shit from us. What's new? Thank you to John Richter in general for all of his work on this podcast. Thank you to Arjuna Ramgopal who is

knee deep in Super Bowl stuff and still has time for us. He is the best and we will see you next week for our mailbag. HobbitsandDragons at gmail.com. Send us your mailbag questions. See you soon. Bye.