'Ahsoka' Finale Deep Dive
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Your gamble paid off. So you know. I do. Never thought I'd see him again. You might not have, had you chosen differently. Sorry. You know. You're not mad? Over the years I've made my share of difficult choices. Often no one understood my reasons. Except my master, Anakin. He always stood by me. Even when no one else did. That's why, no matter what happens next, I'm going to be there for you.

Greetings and welcome to House of R, a Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin, and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only back to Dathomir, but also to our new-ish House of R podcast feed. This is the first full season of a deep dive completed on the new feed now. New-ish. Joining me today, asking...

If I pledge myself to the sisterhood, to the magic, hold ways. It's my house of our... ...reminent title. Co-host, Joanna Robinson. What is up, bad babies? Bad baby. Hello, and welcome to our Ahsoka episode 8 deep dive. A journey through...

A whole season of television, if you will. Yeah. Here I sit, podcasting on the very edge of the knuckle of a giant stone statue, waiting to share my insights with you, flashing like a light on a distant mountain. Here we are. Beautiful. Yeah. Beautiful. Boy, that was inspiring. I could see some Tolkien over your shoulder. I didn't say it first. You said the T word first before me. We...

We'll be wielding the blade of Talzin soon. But before we do, some quick programming reminders because it's a busy time here in the nerdverse. Over on the ringerverse, you can already, by the time you hear this podcast, find the Midnight Boys instant reaction to the Loki season two premiere.

And that's not all on the Loki front. Jessica Clemons will have her first video breakdown of the Easter eggs from that Loki premiere coming over the weekend, Saturday. You're going to be able to find that in the Ring of Earth's feed. You're going to be able to find that on YouTube. And then come back to the House of R where you will find Waiting for You on Monday.

Exact pub time TBD. We've got some Sunday scheduling stuff we're figuring out. Our deep dive into Loki season two, episode one. We are so excited to talk about Loki again. We did a fun Loki Hall of Fame episode to talk about why this is such a meaningful and wonderful character. So check that out if you haven't. That's up on the feed from earlier this week. Joanna. Yeah. It's a lot.

How can everyone follow along? I'm just stunned and staggered by all the wonderful content that our pals put out into this here ringerverse. If you want to follow all of that, I have such a brilliant, insightful idea, which is why don't you just follow the podcast? Like, why don't you just subscribe to House of R in the ringerverse? Then you're all set. You got your minty people, your button mashing, you're doing everything, right? Okay. Love it. Yeah. If you're a commitment phobe, however, and you just want to like...

keep a more casual track of us, want to follow us on social, Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, et cetera, at ringerverse.com.

If you've been missing the beautiful, you know, stylings of one Benjamin Lindbergh, there is an explainer video up for you. Brand new one on the on the ring of our socials. So really big day for Ben's adoring social public. Oh, yeah. What a time. They're feasting. Jomie is providing the content and they are feasting. Yeah.

So that's, that's, that's all good news. Also. Yeah. Hobbitsanddragonsatgmail.com. Absolutely. That's an email that we have. And I know you guys know that because you send us a lot of emails and they're all great. And I read all of them. So thank you so much for sending them. Um,

Thank you to the gentle car in the background from Steve. And that's a really good way to keep in touch with us and be part of the conversation. I met a bunch of bad babies last night at an event in Oakland, and it was delightful. And, you know, they were talking about how for some of them, like, the emails are their favorite parts. And I love that. It's just like a giant conversation we're all having about these stories we love. What could be better? Back to you, Mallory. Well, I'm glad you mentioned meeting people out in the world.

Because we have a special programming reminder, which is that the Ringerverse crew, the entire Ringerverse family, we're getting together for a live show at the end of this month on Monday, October 30th. Doors are opening at 7, shows at 8 in downtown Los Angeles at the Terragram Ballroom. We're doing a live show. You can get your tickets right now. Get them while you can. They're selling so fast. TerragramBallroom.com.

Terragram ballroom.com. Go get your tickets. Join us. Come hang. It's going to be amazing. I am so excited for that. There's, you know, there's members of the team I haven't even met face to face. Benhamin, Jessica. That's it, I think. But yeah, I'm thrilled to meet them face to face. Thrilled to see all the bad babes that are going to be out there. And yeah, that's going to be fun. Can't wait. Please join us.

All right. Last programming reminder. It's the same. It's the same one that we always end the intro on. It's the friendly one. And they were all they were all pretty friendly today. It's the friendly neighborhood spoiler warning.

You're like, what plot details might come up today in the podcast, the Very Long Deep Dive podcast about the finale of the first season of Ahsoka? Yeah. It's everything that happened in that episode, in episode eight. Sure. It's everything that happened in the entire first season of Ahsoka. Right. And it's everything that's ever happened in Star Wars. All of it is on the table today. That's a lot. All of it. Yeah. Wait, what about video games? Anything that's ever happened in Star Wars could come up today. Comic books. Yeah. Yeah.

Lego sets. All of it. What about a fan fiction I wrote when I was 12? I mean, I certainly hope so. I hope you're prepared to do a dramatic reading. Stay tuned. All right. Nestle yourself comfortably in front of the father and the son because it is time to pod. Part eight. The Jedi, the witch, and the wardrobe. Joanna, right away. We have something to talk about here.

You said wardrobe, warlord. Well, the Jedi, the witch, and the warlord is, of course, a play on the lion, the witch, and the wardrobe. Jo. Yes. How excited were you to see this episode title? Thrilled. Over the moon. Absolutely delighted.

Yeah, we got a Narnia reference right away, which was really fun for those of us who like that sort of thing. You know, it's really cute. A pal of mine, Luca, who does a lot of great Game of Thrones writing, if you've ever, Luca Nieto, great Game of Thrones journalist, let me know that there is a Doctor Strange issue that came out this week.

called The Doctor, The General, and The Warlord. So, like, something in the water of the Narnia fans in the Nerdverse this week. I mean, we just did a tropes course on Portal Fantasy and talked about Narnia. I mean, that's why I felt Filoni was like, I listened to the tropes course, and at the last minute, I decided we're going to change the episode title. Change the name. Change the name.

Dave Filoni, of course, wrote this episode as he did every episode of this eight-episode season of Ahsoka. Rick Famuyiwa directed this. He has, of course, directed many episodes and EP'd many episodes of The Mandalorian back here in the Mandoverse again. This is a 48-minute episode, so you're looking at 42-ish minutes of content once you remove the credits. And I think we can agree that is not... Not enough.

Which brings us to, just like old times, our opening snapshot. Joanna Robinson, what did you think of the Ahsoka finale? Do you think Steve put that jaunty sort of rebellion music on the opening snapshot because he's thinking about Snaps Wexley? I've always wondered. Just makes me want to join and be a fighter pilot. Oh, the Ahsoka finale. Listen.

There are things to like in this finale, and there are a lot of questions I have as well. I had a great time listening to the Midnight Boys lose their entire minds and melt all the way down about the finale. It's truly one of the most hilarious experiences of my life. I am not quite as wound up as they were.

And truth be told, I think a few of them, like a couple days later, are also not as wound up as they were in the immediate aftermath of the episode. I was pretty wound up in the immediate aftermath of the episode, though. And I've had time to think and reflect and rewatch and examine and find some things to love. But yeah, just I think it goes back to your comment on the runtime. Not enough. And I would say not enough episodes in the season. The boys said this, too. I'm plagiarizing, you know, their point. But like.

This is at least 12 episodes of story that they tried to jam into an eight episode season. And so I think to borrow a Mallory-ism, not to be like a glutton, right? But give us more. And if you give us more room and more space, I feel like we could have had some of those conversations we were really itching for, some of those character moments we really felt we were missing here at the tail end of the story. Mallory Rubin,

This was your most anticipated thing on your hype meter. You had a lot riding on the line. Like, you cared a lot about this. I'm not trying to... I'm just trying... Like, you cared a lot. So how are you feeling? I thought the finale was a very mixed bag. There were some things in it that I really enjoyed, and there were some things in it that moved me deeply. And there were some things in it that confounded me in a way that I'll be thinking about for quite a long time. You know, I think some of that is definitely born of...

the number of episodes in the season and the, the runtime on, uh, on the finale, I think like particularly for characters who were written inside of longer seasons, you know, and those episodes of course were shorter clone wars and rebels episodes are, you know, 22, 24 minutes, but you've got many, many, many episodes inside of a season to play out arcs. Um,

I was thinking of the exchange from episode seven between Ahsoka and Hu Yang. You know, you got the timing wrong. Didn't I feel terrible? We got the timing wrong here at the end. And I revisited...

Maybe more of the season than was healthy to revisit in the last day and a half between when the finale aired and when we were recording. But like in all your spare time, I just I have not slept much this week. Going to be very honest with you right at the top here. I I was so struck by the shift in pace.

Scene to scene, conversation to conversation, episode to episode. And I was thinking back to a lot of what I think some people bumped on early, but that we really loved, which was the slow burn, the very methodical time to linger on a look and a choice and an idea and an exchange. And so when we...

I think not just like the shift in the clip at which things move, but when we have a lot of the like questions or beats or pins set inside of those more deliberately plotted exchanges, and then we accelerate through the payoff, it is disorienting. And yeah,

a little bit disappointing. I think that there were some scenes in this episode that contained all of that within. Like, we'll talk about, obviously, all this in detail as we go, but the Ezra lightsaber scene I'll just tease is emblematic to me of, like,

a really wonderful thing in a part of that scene. And then two just like astonishing choices about character conversations and reveals all inside of the same thing. So it's like, there's something here I love. There's something here I'm very puzzled by. And I can't wait to talk about all of it with you today, Joe. Maybe we'll work through some of our feelings. And again, there was a lot here that I really, really loved. And I found, I did find the finale like

very emotional on the whole and was like in tears at the end. There were things that I really liked about it, but just some strange choices along the way. I would not say emotional on the whole, but I will say it ended in, you know, a combination of visuals and score and moments for me in a way that like, very poignant, very poignant. To your point about pacing or overall arc of the season, yeah,

It reminds me that, I think it's a John Mulaney bit, about the, like, happy birthday sign, right? Where you, like, start with, like, the giant H and the giant A. And then you're, like, running out of space and you start to, like, tuck letters under the other and, like, scrunch them up and stuff like that to get all the way to the end of birthday. So, yeah, this feels like... So why couldn't this have been 10 episodes or 12 episodes? Right. Why? Exactly. Why? I genuinely don't understand. Well, let's call... Do you have Kathy on the line? Kathy Kennedy! Kathy, why?

Yeah. We just needed more time because there was so much here to love throughout the season. There really was. There really was. There was a lot of potential, a lot of potential. This episode is brought to you by Peloton. You know, for me, fitness has always been about finding that groove, whether it's hitting the pavement outside, which I've done a lot of, or dialing up a sweat session indoors.

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Okay, let's head to Camp Chimera where magic abounds. How are we spelling magic? I have changed the spelling of magic based on the subtitling of this episode. I've made a real-time adjustment. We're never too old to learn, Snips. That's Anakin Taught Us. Just when you think you know everything there is to know about how to spell magic, you find...

You don't know anything about it at all. A lot of the characters in this episode. J-I-K, Majik. They're thinking about new lessons, and so are we on the Majik front. Joanna. Yeah. Inside of the Chimera, Morgan tells Thrawn that the cargo transfer is complete, and Thrawn orders the eye of Sion, slash Tharon, down from high orbit, quote, so that we may begin the interlinking procedure. Now...

I suspect that this is something that a lot of people bumped on throughout the episode. Yeah. There's the general question of how long it should take

to latch the chimera onto the Eye of Sion. But that is particularly germane when the definitive I'm-about-to-win note at the end of Episode VII from Grand Admiral Thrawn was Ahsoka Tano has lost the one thing she could not afford to lose today. Time. Time is very much on our side now, and I shall keep it that way. So where... And then we're just...

Where's the hustle from literally anyone is my question. Like, where's the hustle from, you know, why aren't we double timing the caskets or whatever it is we're supposed to be doing? And P.S. Same note for our pals over who are flying at a leisurely clip.

above the noti uh migration i'm assuming that was just because of the lightsaber assembly and that if but as soon as he's the only one who's like gotta gotta get my lightsaber together like he's literally the only one with any sense of urgency in that scene and everyone else is like ahsoka's literally meditating and i'm just like he needed to build his weapon we gotta go force is not a powerful enough ally after all

Oh, it turns out I can't just like gently breeze the force in the general direction of these soon to be discovered zombies. Yeah. Oh, man. So, Enoch, your guy.

What a rewarding casting of that. It's still not as bad as us getting to see Keri Russell for like 14 total seconds in Rise of Skywalker. Again, this remains a proud, albeit deeply confounding Star Wars tradition. Enoch is here not just so that we can bask in his presence, but with a report. Comscan. Fixed on the Jedi shuttle.

and Thrawn would like to send two fighters to pursue. Now, Thrawn famously...

Mr. TIE, you know? Mr. TIE Defender. Defender. So these are not TIE Defenders. Important to note. Regular old TIE. What do you think? Is this the strategy that you, a military tactician, a military expert, Joanna Robinson, would have enacted here? Would you send two TIE fighters? Well, as you know, I am. I am a Grand Admiral. I just eschew my title when I record with you, but everyone else calls me Grand Admiral Joanna Robinson. Two TIEs. I mean...

You like it? I mean, it did what it needed to do, did it not? You know, this is the thing. Taking a lot of heat for the two-tie move. And you could say it's not sufficient, but they did slow the shuttle. They disabled the ship. They slowed the shuttle. Yeah. I have some questions on how they responded to Sabine's particular maneuver, which we'll get to later, and to Sabine's maneuver. But they got there. They did it. We'll talk about that later. How's Morgan feeling?

Oh, ready. Yeah, she is ready. There is little the Jedi can do to stop us now. This is sort of like when Balan was like, no one can possibly follow us to another galaxy now. You know, like I think or literally anything a character said last week.

You know, though Ezra did make it home. So, you know. Yeah. Yeah. That's one where like he got away by the by the letter of what he said. It actually panned out. But I think the spirit was probably more like we're all we're going to go. So maybe there's still some regret there. But yeah, she's probably not as much as Morgan has. Yeah. She's like, there's little that I can do to stop us now. And yeah.

what little the Jedi can do to stop her now is vivisect her. But, you know, she doesn't know that yet. It's a tough way to go. Yeah. It's a tough way to go. It's a double slash. I gotta say, if I'm gonna die, I want all my guts staying on the inside. That's how I feel about it. You know what I mean? The good thing about a lightsaber... Was it an instant cauterization sort of thing? And or a blade wreathed in green magical flame is like there's a lot of instant cauterization. I didn't see any guts tumbling out. Well, that's because it's a Disney Plus show. This is an episode that's...

had a zombie jaw hanging. I,

I really feel like... Freely dangling. I really feel like if the camera had lingered on Morgan, the guts would have started to tumble. Like gravity would have taken the guts eventually. You know what I mean? So I want them inside of me. What? That's... Boy. Raising? Raising? No. Actually, I guess it's fine. Yeah, I just... I hear I want it inside of me and the instinct to say raising kicks in, but I think you won't be there. My own...

My own viscera. Oh, boy. Wonderful. Thank you for that important point of clarity.

Thrawn has some clarity too. Yeah. And it's that he's been listening to podcasts and he really thinks that there should be more awareness and reflection at the fore here. Ezra beat me before. He's not going to do it again. So here's what Thrawn says to Morgan, imparting a little wisdom. I've watched many an Imperial officer make the same assumptions about the rebellion. Even I. Even I! Even I!

fell victim to the heroics of a single Jedi. Never again. This is what you were looking for a little more of from him in episode six, right? And I think in general, what people were looking for in the 12 years that Ezra was just out there and Thrawn was like, don't worry about it, right? Like, a little institutional memory of falling victim to the heroics of a single Jedi, that single Jedi is Ezra Bridger, and he's just chilling with some crabs, and I've just let him, you know? Yeah.

So, questions, comments, answers. Speaking of that 12-year period, we actually did, I mean, there's still a huge amount that we don't know about what transpired in this time. I think presumably because they want to, you know, preserve the right to tell future stories set in this time period or flesh out that canon in some subsequent tale. But we actually got a little...

nugget from Ezra later in the episode when he and Sabine and Ahsoka are arriving. But it's on my mind here because there's this moment where Thrawn tells the Great Mothers that their alliance has proven quite beneficial is the way he puts it. They express their gratitude in return. And it's like, well, why not? Why wouldn't they be grateful? Because as we hear from Ezra later, Thrawn found that place and quote, woke up the witches. This is like fascinating. We pair this with

With something like what we heard from Balin in episode six, perhaps they flee a power greater than their own. And we're thinking like, were they hibernating? Were they hiding? Thrawn is their ride, right? Their cargo's ride back to Dathomir, their lifeboat to this new beginning. Their escape though, also clearly from whatever is here. And in turn, they granted him the favor of a magical DM to Morgan and a reanimated army. This is teamwork. This is inspiring. A couple of things. Number one, um,

You love teamwork. I love when people wake up witches. It's honestly like such a cool, such a baller thing to do. It's a great thing to do. And waking up something is an interesting thing to be thinking about when we think about that final shot of Balan, right? And what is Balan up to, et cetera. Yeah. Like how did Thrawn do that? Yeah. Like some espresso shots? Something else? Yeah.

What's the coffee routine on Peridia? I really think he just like poked at some stones until they got into the right combination. And then he like gently turned some pillars until they were all facing the right direction. And then here come the witches. Well, if you love witches, I have great news for you. I have another one right here because they've got some thanks from Morgan and they have some other stuff too. New face tats. We've been talking throughout our two years together, by the way. Happy Pot-a-versary, my darling. Happy.

It's our Pot-a-Varsity week.

We've been talking about tattoos. You know, we both... We have tattoos. We like tattoos. We talk sometimes about getting new tattoos. What do you think? Is this the direction we should go? The full Morgan Ellsworth. The full Great Mother. Me clutching your face and wherever my fingers seared into your face, there you shall have a shadowy patch. A chance. Some green mist. You can give me the gift of shadows. Yeah. And I would say I already have the gift of shadows under my eyes right now. Yeah.

Here's what I'm going to do. Yeah. I'm going to give you a spooky magic sword.

Okay. And when I give that to you, you're going to take it and be like, cool, I probably just get to hold on this sword and hop a ride back home and not have to fight anyone, right? No one definitely gave me a magical sword, as you said, wreathed in spooky green flame for me to fight anyone. I've done the fighting. I answered, as you said, the magical DM and got us here across the

the galaxies to where we are now, did that answer your questions about, like, Morgan listening to, you know, chance and following them across the galaxy? Does that satisfy your questions about that? Yeah, this idea of, like, reaching her through their dreams and these mysterious voices summoning her. I think that later it would have been valid when Thrawn said, I need a little more time for her to say, I...

heated, mysterious voices in dream and built you a super charged seven hyperdrive. I have silent travel between galaxies. And then I traveled between those galaxies myself. Yeah. Come find you. Yeah. And I don't, I don't, I don't want to do the thing you're asking, but Hey, they said right here, you're going to, you're going to abandon your old ways. You're going to swear loyalty. You're going to swear your life. And she said,

Yeah, I'm in. She had fewer questions than I would have. She thought she was going to get unlimited power, but that's not what she got. What do you think our Thrones pals think of this blade? Thoros? I think Thoros of Myr is like, that was pretty chill. Beric of Darius is like, it comes in green. I'm getting one.

We love a magical blade. We have a whole podcast, a whole Tropes Course episode about magical blades. Now, some Star Wars fans will have seen this before because the blade of Talzin, this, of course, I mean, Jo, this is a family matter for you. Mother Talzin, the mother of Darth Maul. Oh, I call her... You call her mom. Mama Talzin. Mama Talzin.

We've seen this blade in action in the Clone Wars. There's a fun Mother Talzin, Mace Windu fight that includes an exchange that's actually quite appropriate setup for the 2.0 rematch between Morgan and Ahsoka in this episode. Your power is no match for my magics. Magic is only an illusion. Um, listen. It's called the Magical Blade. Yeah.

Darth Maul's mom, Mama Talzin. She's full of wit and wisdom. A real peach and a pearl, you know? Fantastic character. Yeah. Real lucky to have her in the family, honestly. As soon as she got that sword, I was like, it's curtains for Morgan, honestly. That's a wrap on Morgan. I want to shout out this email we got from our listener Amanda, who says, we saw...

I genuinely didn't know it was coming that time. Having some real volume shift between the rebounds there. We saw Ahsoka pick up the Talisman Blade during her fight with Morgan. I'm assuming she didn't leave it there afterwards, if only to not risk anyone else finding and using it. Do you think there's a possibility that Ahsoka could somehow purify that blade since she purified her Kyber Crystals?

She's down a weapon. Sorry, spoilers for later in the podcast. She's down a weapon since one of her lightsabers was destroyed, but unless He Yang has a giant stash of kyber crystals, more on that later. She can't build another lightsaber. If the blade isn't purified, I wonder if the blade's magic.

could somehow call this a being since she was once possessed by a Nightsister spirit. Molly, we are far from Theory Corner. It is way down the road from us. We are going to be joined by Ben later in the episode to talk about like some season two thoughts, but I don't know. What do you think about the fact that the Talzin Blade is now there and now in the possession of Ahsoka Tano? I, I, my,

my assumption, which could certainly be proven wrong, is that the blade will fade in and out of tangibility and existence and travel with the magic. So I don't think they'll, I would be surprised. I'd be surprised if they had access to it. I think that if they did, I don't think a Soko would be drawn to it because of that dark energy that the night sisters tap into. The Sabine prospect is an intriguing one.

Though she was like possessed. That wasn't an active choice she made on the, uh,

Only one blade front. I am wondering if that was why we got some Ahsoka single blade fights earlier in the season, though, to prep us for maybe her just moving forward with one. Though apparently, Hu Yang just has extra crystals hanging around, sitting there. I have so many questions about that. Anyway, as Sabine's publicist... Yeah. Uh-huh. She's hired me as a crisis management publicist for this episode. Yeah. You're busy. As a publicist...

You're busy this season. Booked and busy. I would urge her to stay far away from cursed blades and objects. It's a good rule in general. I don't think folks are going to be empathetic to the call should she experience it. So you picked up a cursed blade. Mallory turned her chair around to it. So you handed over the star map. So you accidentally invented the dungeons. So you ruined the ship by driving it into TIE Fighters.

Oh, boy. Sabine. Okay, speaking of lightsabers. Yeah. I remember every lightsaber I've ever forged and every hurried conversation I've ever had. Mr. Bridger. Okay, let's go back to our beloved Nody. We're there with the caravan. As you noted, we're moving at a leisurely pace. We're taking in the sights. We're recharging. The beautiful Baron Ashland ashes of... Some carboy.

I don't know. How do people get ready for physical activity? I'm not familiar. I assume there's a lot of gatorade and garb loading. Some goo. Some of that bike marathon goo. Yeah. As I mentioned, I think that this scene contains some wonderful stuff and some deeply confounding stuff. Ezra's building a lightsaber, but before we talk about the construction of the saber, which...

I'm excited to do in a moment here. We must first discuss why he is building it. Here's what he says to explain why he is in this rapid lightsaber construction phase inside of Hui Yang's workshop. I don't have time for lessons right now. Ahsoka wants us to go after Thrawn as soon as we're ready. This, like, throws me in real time. Like, this stopped me cold. I was like, did my...

Like, genuinely did my Disney Plus, like, skip ahead five minutes and I missed a scene. Like, surely Ezra did not find out about Thrawn offscreen. And surely he didn't find out from Ahsoka, not Sabine. Surely this did not actually happen and they just tweeted it out away after a season of buildup. There's so much to talk about here. Can't wait till Ezra finds out what Sabine did. Well, I mean, apparently...

I guess Sabine's choice in all of that is probably not something Ahsoka communicated because Sabine didn't even know that Ahsoka knew. So like Ezra doesn't necessarily know that Sabine actively chose to give the map over, et cetera. But he does know that they're there. And like, yeah, the fact that he, we don't get to watch him have this realization that this monumental mammoth sacrifice that he has made

Of sticking his dick in a crab claw for 12 years. Oh, yeah. That chafes, you know? That it is all at risk. I mean, and overall, I mean, the Midnight Boys said Ezra's not really a character in the show. I mean, I think that was actually specifically Van's critique, but like,

I don't know that I'm ready to go that far, but I am ready to double down on my criticism from last week, which is just like Ezra is just light, airy, bouncing along, not really feeling the weight of anything.

And I experienced some pushback on this from some listeners where they thought they more agreed with you that like Ezra's demeanor is such that he wouldn't necessarily, these things wouldn't weigh heavily on him, the Clone Wars version of him. I just think there's a difference between the Ezra we met post losing his folks and, you know, the riffraff street rat, Aladdin-esque life he lived before he met the ghost crew and being in a different place

You know, at least he was home in Lothal and he knew people and stuff like that. Like being in a completely different galaxy for 12 years. Again, I don't need to harp on this thing. I harped on it last week, but I'm just saying that it continued in this episode of him just like Sabine's not coming back with me. Okay. We don't even get to see him react to that reality. You know what I mean? And then we'll talk about the reunion with Hera at the end, but I'm just sort of like, I don't understand. I like the performance.

a lot. I'm charmed by it. I don't understand this as a wholly formed person, and it makes the story feel more surface level than I would like it to feel because I just don't feel like I'm getting that depth. I think there's another really strong example coming up shortly of a moment where it is difficult to believe that

Ezra wouldn't have a conversation about a thing. We'll like return to that in a minute. But Ben, so we always recommend reading Ben Lindbergh's wonderful weekly recaps. This week's was a genuine opus. Stay hydrated. 6,000 words. Stay hydrated. 6,000 words. And he was in broadly the same place with the episode. There was a lot that he enjoyed, but that kind of so-so mixed bag of like the

pacing and the questionable payoff and manifestation of some of the character choices at the end was top of mind for him. And this was the one he bumped on the most. He had a line in his recap that really stuck with me about not getting to see Ezra learn about this. And I think, Joe, your point about

because of the exchange between Sabine and Ahsoka and the like, you know part, we have to deduce that the actual choice Sabine made wasn't a part of it. But that just makes it worse to me because I just think that doesn't make any sense. Like, how could it not be a part of it? Because then what is the information? And then is Ezra still not asking more questions? Are they not providing details? It's like, we're here. Thrawn is leaving. People are here to rescue him. Those events are not connected. Like, that just completely defies our ability to believe or accept. So,

The line in Ben's review was, I can't think of a conversation that was more crucial to the show. And that is just damning. Like...

If we go back further than even Sabine's choice or the reunion between Sabine and Ezra, which is just, you know, the last couple episodes and her choice was episode four. Go back to episode one, the beginning of the show. What is one of the first exchanges that we hear between Ahsoka and Sabine? This isn't just about finding Ezra. It's about preventing another war. You think I don't know that? This is the central tension of the season. It's the central tension of the season. And there are other central tensions too. But,

But, and we do get to hear Ahsoka and Sabine discuss Sabine's choice in the next scene, so we get that with them. But as you said, the Ezra aspect of this is inextricable from the substance of what they are talking about or feeling or weighing in the first place. Like, we don't know. Okay, think about what Thrawn said in episode six, right? Ah, yes. Yes.

The desire to be reunited with your long-lost friend. How that singular focus will reshape our galaxy. Now, you can quibble on whether you think that's fair, whether you think that burden should rest on Sabine's shoulders. We wondered, I think, very reasonably what Ezra's read on that would be. Like, would he be angry that she came to me that we would never even get to see it?

That we would never see it, you know? For us to not know the answer, did he say, I understand, I would have made the same choice for you, no matter what sacrifice you had made. It would have been the most important thing for me to find you. I absolve you, you should absolve yourself. Yeah. We can assume that by deduction, but we're just, we're left with deduction. And for us to not know, like, how can we not have the answer to that question when it was such a driving force of the season? It's just...

Sabine's choice, which again, as her publicist, I have been defensive of it all season. Yeah, me too. But that's also why this would have been a very rewarding thing and an important thing to say. No, there's just not a single real ramification or any sense to me that she has any sense of the gravity of what has happened here. Like, Sabine feels in this episode so defiant of,

of any sort of criticism, which she then doesn't receive at all. So I don't know. It's very confounding to me, but I think that, you know, it's genuinely baffling to me why we wouldn't get to see this. It's genuinely baffling to me why the show is treating...

And again, this is something the Midnight Boys talked about, but like treating Thrawn and Ezra as if, you know, we hear about waking the witches. But other than that, treating them as almost like they were NPCs where when they were off screen, they were just, you know, like sitting there waiting for a main character to come bring them back into the action. I just, again, to your point,

Perhaps they're reserving the right to tell the meanwhile on Paridia story in a future date in animation and live action. Like, seems inevitable to me. But it's also, that's like kind of my cynical read on it. But it's just like... Not my defense of it. Yeah. Why wouldn't you... I want to hear... I want like... You know that scene in Falcon and the Winter Soldier when...

Bucky is sitting by the fire and talking to Dora Milaj and like, I don't know. I just need, I need that from Ezra. I need to know what is the inner turmoil? What is the conflict inside this human heart? And he just seems like completely chill with everything. And I just can't,

There's a way to be forgiving and there's a way to be Zen about things without like feeling not like a real person. My suspicion is that if we had gotten the conversation, it wouldn't have addressed those two notes from you. Like, I don't think it would have been the accountability for Sabine and I don't think it would have been the, um,

The conflict in the human heart, the George R.R. Martin Faulkner for Ezra. But I think even absent that, us seeing them grapple with the facts on the ground, with these seismic decisions that have bearings, where their relationship and their bond...

Whether it's fair or not, again, to put that all on Sabine, their relationship and their bond has a bearing now on galactic history. Like you have to talk about that even. And I think, again, I think we're, I like that we're in slightly different places with this part of it. Cause I think it's an interesting tension. Like,

The thing I am missing is him saying to her, I understand. And then her letting herself off the hook a little because we're not seeing the letting off the hook. It's just there's no hook. Well, exactly. I don't mind him saying I understand. I think we are in the same page, actually. I don't mind him saying I understand. I don't mind her letting herself off the hook, to your point, if she had ever put herself on the hook in the first place. But she seems very much like,

She was so nervous and reluctant to engage with him on this in the prior episodes that it felt like this, like she was so afraid, like, would he, would he accept the choice that she had made?

And we just, I honestly can't believe we didn't get that conversation. I think there's another almost as strange thing coming up shortly in the same scene, but this one took the cake for me. This was the strangest. Yes. Klu-Yang as Ollivander. Wonderful stuff. Completely delightful. Fabulous. Let's talk about something that made us happy, the lightsaber construction. There are a couple questions.

Questions we have even inside of this, admittedly, but this was broadly really delightful. So first of all, it's just wonderful to get that. You zoom in and you see Ezra assembling the blade. I feel like we have a perfect house of our outcome here after the Theory Corner discussion last week, which is like it's a shared victory. Ezra built his own saber, but it was like in the image of Kanan's saber. Yeah.

So like best of both worlds. We, we, once again, we know you're listening and then shooting an episode in the next 48 hours. We know you did that for us. Thank you. Oh boy. Uh, I loved the little, like the too narrow nod for the, the first emitter calling back to those really like famously slender, uh, svelte rebels, uh, blades. Um,

I loved who Yang and Ezra basically disagreeing about how to organize your spice cabinets. Like I would just watch a sitcom with these two and I would be content and delighted. You, sir, have a method, not a system or anything resembling a process. Just like absolutely killed me. Yang is so delightful. Important house of our question. Yeah. How do you organize your spice cabinet? Yeah.

Well, as you go... You don't cook a lot, I know. But like, you have some spices. Two things that you know. One, I don't cook a lot. Two, I have spice shelves that have Funko Pops on them. I use them as basically like bleachers in my living room. I do. I keep salt, pepper at the front. I keep...

Red pepper flakes, very handy. I keep cinnamon handy. I really like to put cinnamon on sweet potatoes. If Adam grills up a sweet potato, lovely. Beyond that, it's just chaos. There's no real organization beyond that. I need to be able to access a bay leaf every so often, some chili powder every so often, but I can't say I have a great system. I can't. I can't lie. What about you? I think you, as somebody who picks plums from your yard to make your own barbecue sauce, probably have a more refined setup.

It's more like the... I'm happy to tell you about how I organized my candy shelf, though. That's a system. I thought it was a drawer. It's a shelf? It's a shelf that pulls out. So it kind of is both. Yeah. I've seen it. It's a drawer-ish. Yeah. Can't believe we didn't get a... Oh, yes. Or a bad baby on the pulls out. Man. Oh, yes. Are we going to do another candy draft this year? Something to think about. Okay. Anyway.

I like to organize like all the chili peppers are together. All the baking spices are together. You know what I mean? Like thematically, this is how they're organized. For sure. So like the way you organize your books, not alphabetically. Theme. Vibe. Yeah. Same. Same. Great. Wonderful.

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Let's hear Ezra and Hu Yang. Ezra's building his third lightsaber, we should note, third, discussing Hu Yang's history as the master saber instructor over eons and eons and eons. And we get a little bit of Kanan history here. Steve, can we hear this? Who taught you how to build a lightsaber anyway? Kanan Jarrus. Is that so? Yeah. He was my master. Taught me everything I know. And I taught him how to build a lightsaber. What?

Of course. Now it all makes sense. How could you know him? Sabine? I told you. I taught almost every youngling at the Jedi Temple, including your master. The other boy, Caleb, was very curious. A little shy, perhaps. Well, who can blame him? Those were troubling times. How old are you? Old enough to know that the relationship between a master and an apprentice is as challenging as it is meaningful.

Okay. I loved this. Even though this is a thing we loved. Quick nitpick. A couple quick questions. I have to get them out of the way. Jo, where did Ezra get the kyber crystal from? Well, where did Ezra get his second kyber crystal?

Off screen between seasons. So like first crystal, it's just like massive moment, this huge Lord look with the journey and the temple and everything. Like, is he not bonded with this crystal? This is my question is like, I actually think, sorry, with love and respect to Dave Filoni and Lucasfilm, et cetera. Um,

That they're fairly inconsistent with whether or not the kyber needs to be incredibly... Sometimes it's incredibly important and you've gone through the trials and blah, blah, and sometimes you just have a kyber. Honestly, that just seems to be the case. And I prefer it...

Given the magique, the mysticism of the Force, et cetera, I prefer it if the kyber is hard won, you know, and there's a story and a journey and a trial. But just sort of yada, yada, yada, who Yang has a drawer of kybers is not particularly...

Like the Infinity Stone paperweights in the TVA. Yeah, exactly. Just here. I thought this was particularly strange because to your point about, yes, it can be inconsistent, but Filoni, I think, cares about it because of how it's been deployed in Clone Wars and Rebels. Obviously, we have a lot of key canon coming in like comics and novels as well, but that was just very strange. A good example of something that felt like a matter of necessity and urgent need in a tight timeframe at the end and less maybe the ideal way to

tell the story of Ezra forging his third blade, though other parts of it were ideal, like the emitter part, which we'll get to in a second. I also, like, did you bump on the fact that Sabine doesn't seem to know, like, how old Hu Yang is or what he's been doing and for how long, and Hu Yang doesn't know that

Kanan was Ezra's master. This does not track for me because who Yang talks about Ezra throughout the season often and clearly knows about him. And Sabine has this relationship with who Yang from the training with Ahsoka. So like, I don't know how Kanan wouldn't have come up at any point. That's very strange. I mean, again, this just feels like, um,

Thrawn not knowing that Anakin is Ahsoka's master in terms of like it just feels like in this show they need something. Our producer Arjuna and I were talking about earlier today before we started recording and he may have had a similar conversation with you. But this idea of like Filoni a problem with the Ahsoka show is Filoni trying to in trying to make it feel welcoming to everyone.

He is now requiring that all these characters, you have characters who are learning information for the first time, right? So he is requiring that Hu Yang say, oh, your master was Kanan or Thrawn being like, oh, her master was Anakin. So that like the audience can kind of feel like they're learning information along with the characters. I don't think it's a great tactic because I think you end up sort of irritating everyone with that particular choice.

Yeah. I also think, like, there's a way to just have Ezra mention Kanan here or Sabine mention Kanan without Hu Yang being like, oh! Oh, easily. Easily. Easily. For him to... And to say... But yeah, that's a good point. To share his memory of who Kanan was, which is absolutely beautiful. You're talking about shy little Caleb? Little boy. Curious. But, like...

to share his memory without having to say, oh, I'm just learning this information for the first time. Also, to be shocked at how old a droid is when droids are eternal. I don't know. It's very odd. But... Can we talk about the wonderful part? Yeah. Please. Twin course. Let's do it. It so happens that the phoenix whose tail feather is in your wand gave up just one of us.

This is a big Narnia, Harry, Thrones, Rings episode. All of the references are here and they are abundant. Love, love, love a nod to the wider fantasy universe. Hu Yang just goes full Ollivander once again here. I love that you write Ollivander in our notes. It's really funny. Ollivander. I went with Zooper later for Zombie Trooper, which I'm not sure caught your eye in the same way. I loved it.

And then I started singing. Trying to be efficient. I started to sing ABBA's Super Trooper, but it was Zuper Trooper. Fantastic. Save it for the pod, as they say. We're on the pod. You can just sing right now. I had two of those. Oh, oh, no. Keep going. No, no, we're good.

Oh, who Yang finds the emitter that Ezra is seeking. And he knows because it is the same one that Kanan used. He says he had to Kanan took the other one. The other I held on to in case he ever needed it. It is proper that you should have it. And the way that Ezra says, thank you, who Yang just like melted my heart. This connection between Kanan and Ezra, between all of these characters across time. I hate to say this, or maybe I love to say it,

Hui Yang MVP of this episode. Hui Yang is just fantastic. MVP of this episode for me. Fantastic. Especially. Actually. Later on he's like, don't wait for me. I mean. And Ahsoka's like, okay. Very weird. But Sabine crashes his ship and just like walks away. And you just see Hui Yang standing there like regarding his destroyed ship that he has tried to rebuild nine different times on the show. Yeah. Yeah.

Twin cores. Twin cores. Beautiful. What'd you think about the color? We got a blue one here. Back to the OG color for Ezra's first blade was blue. The second one, which Sabine has now, obviously. Well, it works because there's no blue sky in Paridia, but what is he going to do when he gets back to a planet where there is blue sky? But it's always not sunny on Paridia. And so, you know, the blue works pretty well. Yeah. Love that gray. It is regrettably time to talk about the next deeply confounding decision.

Ezra turns to address Sabine. She's left. We'll talk about where she went in a minute. And so he turns and he asks Hu Yang what happened between Sabine and Ahsoka. And Hu Yang answers. And this is where we get this absolutely essential backstory about these two characters. Here's what Hu Yang says. Ahsoka became afraid that Sabine was training as a Jedi for the wrong reasons after what happened on Mandalore, which was, Ezra asks,

At the end of the war, the Empire purged the entire surface of the planet, killing hundreds of thousands. Her family, Ezra asks, were all lost, sadly. At the time, Ahsoka felt that if Sabine unlocked her potential, she would become dangerous. Where do you want to begin here? Um...

I would rather not hear this with love and respect to Hu Yang and David Tennant. I would rather not hear this story from Hu Yang and have Ezra genially respond to it. I would rather have Ahsoka and Sabine have a conversation about this. Be it an angry, maybe an angry shouting conversation. And I don't know why we would save this.

as like a thing to learn in the finale. This can be something they are openly fighting about in the premiere. Having it as a mystery, even though we got hints about it, is not...

was not additive in any way as far as I'm concerned. And I would have, I would prefer again, maybe this is me quote unquote writing the show, but I would prefer to have them argue about it. And then for Ahsoka later to maybe revisit it and say, this is how I've changed since I guess what? I had some space therapy.

I got a new poncho. I highly recommend. I got a new poncho. You haven't commented on it. Keeps the fit. It's very nice. And now my point of view has changed a bit on this conversation that we had before. But I will say the Ahsoka felt that if Sabine unlocked her potential, she would become dangerous.

This is very much our Luke Kylo Ren sort of revisited situation. And if we go back to thinking about Hu Yang as they're traveling to Pyridia and Ahsoka's talking about Sabine, he says, that's your fear, right? He is referencing this is like, this is... You have been afraid of not only...

the lingering traces of Anakin that might be in yourself, but what of Anakin do you see in Sabine? Right. You know, and do you feel capable... And that's why she didn't train Grogu. She's seeing it everywhere. ...of mastering someone who could, if they access their power, let's say, and in the span of just a few minutes, go from pulling a lightsaber to force-tossing someone across a chasm...

their potential for, you know, danger, for example. Just an example. Could have been any example, but there's one. Did you enjoy the wrong reasons phrasing? You know, we're back in bachelor season, golden bachelors on.

Bachelor in Paradise is on. This is the Bachelor. Golden Bachelor is the first time I've ever been tempted to watch a Bachelor show. I'm begging you. I'm begging you to watch. The first hour of Golden Bachelor is one of the best hours of TV I've ever seen. I'm not kidding. It was sensational. You have to watch it. It was so good. I saw TikTok where some guy was like,

I'm angry at the Golden Bachelor and I can't watch it because I'm too emotionally attached to this person. I'm so protective of him. I don't want him to go through this. Weeping? Like I can't. Freely weeping within the first like three and a half minutes. It is fabulous. Also just a ton of like wildly horny 60 and 70 year olds. They just can't wait to fuck on TV. It's amazing. I highly recommend it. Steve's in. We're getting all caps Zoom chats from Steve right now.

From which of his seven computers that he's currently using to record the pod, we can't say. But from one of them, he is Zoom chatting us. To your point about the when, in addition to the how and the with whom, the when, I wouldn't have minded the conversation happening at the end of the season and us building to this point together.

As a matter of fact, if like we had gotten the conversation in a way that felt cathartic and healing, I think that there's like a sequencing thing that I'm bumping on a little bit because of what we heard from Balin in episode four, where he said when he was,

force peep in and sense in the facts and said to Sabine, I know what's holding you back, your family died on Mandalore because your master didn't trust you. So, like, I'm actually... There's just a little bit of confusion here. It's like, what was the order of events? Did... Right? So that's, again, just like, why is that a thing we're confused on at the end of the season? But I'm with you, of course, that the most important thing is just...

How is this not a conversation between Ahsoka and Sabine? I love Ezra deeply. I love Hui Yang. This is just not a conversation that the two of them should be bringing to the show. It has to be an exchange between the people in question. You left me and I resented it. Hey, she quit on me. That is one of the first things we hear Sabine say about Ahsoka in this season. She quit on me. You didn't believe in me. And Hui Yang says, hey, the past is the past. Move forward. How can they move forward if they're not talking about this specific trauma together? I don't know.

One of the lessons of the season in The World Between Worlds, in episode five, everything that happens with Ahsoka and Anakin is the power of going back to revisit your past and those wounds and process them and find a way to move forward. This could have been a way to build on that idea. And again, they have a conversation coming in a minute about something, but not about this, which I thought was interesting.

Just quite odd. Baffling. I think this is a good spot. This is, this I think would be like, this is probably the height of our criticism of this episode. And like, you know, what happens after? There's stuff to talk about with like the force push and stuff like that. These two conversations are far and away my biggest critiques on the episode. Exactly. Other than the lack of Balin, which we'll talk about in a whole second. I think, I think it's reasonable to visit this email we got from our listener, Jean. Just like, and a question of stewardship here, right? Okay. Because,

Dave Filoni, before I get into Gene Zabel, Dave Filoni exists as this sort of like, is this voltage figure. In Filoni we trust. Filoni is like George Lucas' Padawan, all this sort of stuff like that. And I am not here to knock Filoni all the way down. We admire so much of what Filoni has done, so much of what he has done inside of this season of television. There is so much to admire. But we should say that like one of the reasons, one of the excuses maybe we gave for the spotty

quality of Mandalorian season three is we were like, well, they're missing Filoni. Filoni was off doing this. But now we get to this and this isn't as emotionally profound as we were hoping or I will just speak for myself. Outside of some of these moments like the World Between Worlds episode and stuff like that that absolutely wrecked us, there are some again, I would call it spotty in terms of this season's of television's commitment to death. And so Jean wrote

Once again, reminder, Filoni wrote every episode of the season. Don't you think Filoni needs help? Unlike the 10th Doctor vis-a-vis Harriet Jones, former Prime Minister, I'm not trying to bring down Filoni's entire role at Lucasfilm. However, after viewing all eight episodes of Ahsoka, I believe there is sufficient evidence to determine that granting Filoni total writing and creative control on any Star Wars project moving forward would be a mistake.

I think he can still successfully serve as a showrunner, creative lead on a project, particularly in overseeing the overarching storyline. I think he could serve as a lead writer for a movie or even in an oversight role for the franchise. But there should be an accomplished writer's room working with him on screenplays for any project he leads, especially for dialogue and plot mechanics. There should also be a strong mechanism for providing notes and feedback.

The audience learns about the past relationship and dispute between Ahsoka and Sabine in dribs and drabs all through the series, mostly via expository dialogue, including in the final episode. This was a puzzling and frustrating writing choice structurally, as at the very least, most of this information should have been presented much earlier in the series. This was especially odd because...

This is Joanna again, and I will just say...

coincidentally or not, this is part of one of the conditions of resolving the writer's strike was this idea of requiring a minimum number of writers on any given project

And not having these sort of like – as prestige television crept closer and closer to the concept of like filmmaking where you have one person writing everything or one person directing everything, this idea of the writer's room. And one of the reasons that that exists in the WGA demands is it serves as a way to –

mentor and bring up the next generation of writers. If you don't have writer's room, you don't have young writers learning how to become writers and grow up. But also from a fandom point of view, from us, I think strong stories come out of multiple POVs and people sort of spotting and checking where are the holes here for

maybe Dave, for example, Filoni, we really admire and respect, but perhaps this all feels complete inside of your head. But when you move it outside of your head and have to say it in a room in front of other people, maybe they will be able to point out some of the like, hey, maybe this should be a conversation between Ahsoka and Sabine. So like,

I will admit that coming into this season, I thought Filoni having the writing credit on every episode was a good thing. And now I tend to agree with Jean that I think, you know, from this evidence of this season, perhaps we need more ideas, more voices in the mix here. I don't know. What do you think, Mallory Rubin? Yeah, I mean, I think...

I think that I'm slightly higher on the season overall in terms of its emotional grip on me and re-watching it. I think that episodes four, five, and six are God-tier. It's just really, really great. Even though they have some flaws, and we talked about them at length on this very podcast. You can check out those episodes if you haven't heard them yet. They're episodes that I will...

enjoy revisiting for the rest of my life as a Star Wars fan. I thought that episodes one and two were actually like really strong and rewatching them. I was like, this is a, this is a opening the season in this way. Like, again, I was more like, how did we lose it at the end? Not, Oh, what did we not have to begin with? I think the three, seven and eight are the ones that,

fell short of that mark. But, like, at the end of the day, to Gene's point, the inconsistency across the season...

You net out where you net out, no matter how many episodes were really strong, right? So in general, like I think Filoni is, you know, we've talked about this on a lot of pods. I said many times on Ahsoka preview pods that I expected the show to be the, quote, achievement of a lifetime for Dave Filoni. So I had very high expectations for this, I think in part, not only because I enjoy his Star Wars story so much, but because of how much these characters in particular mean to him, like Ahsoka, the Rebels crew, these are his muses.

And also because of what he's done in fleshing out certain timelines and connections between characters who we have spent time with and have an understanding of their history, but now we get to see this larger connected tapestry and all the threads. So I still feel that way. I think that he remains...

one of my absolute favorite all-time Star Wars creators. And I really liked the show. I'm disappointed by how it concluded, but I really liked the show and I'll enjoy rewatching it and I remain very excited for future seasons. I think that the question, the core question of like, does he or does anyone need help is like always yes. I agree with you. It's just like, you know, I'm an editor by trade. I love a note. Yeah, it's not a non-note.

It's not enough on anyone to say, you know, and Lucas almost is trying to do so much right now. And I just think like the more, the more you can shore up your creative team, the better. And I think that. There's value in multiple perspectives, but I think like,

I think sometimes we think of that stuff as like you need help to figure it out, but I think it can be just as important when you are that invested and something feels like it's the, like your opus, like the, the, the biggest thing that you'll, this is your chance to do the thing you've cared about the most. Like you need those, those checks. That's why we have Steve. Every time we make a house of our episode, we're like, this is like, this is it today. Yeah. This is our baby. And he's like, maybe you don't need to go on that 20 minute digression about, did you guys need to talk about your spices today? Yes. Yeah.

Bad baby. I think that... I guess what I'll say... I'm with... You know, because I was sitting right next to you, I really enjoyed episode one and two a lot. And I thought some of that middle... But I think...

When you're watching television, you're watching an ongoing story. Everything doesn't need to wrap up like perfectly at the end of a season, a season of television. We don't know if there's going to be an Ahsoka season two. Probably there will be, but like we don't know. But so you're watching an ongoing story and that's fine. But I think there have been a few times when you and I have raised some questions, probably more me than you because I'm just, you know, a bit more cynical. And...

our assessment was, well, let's see how it plays out. Yeah. Or let's see how this, how this

You know, especially like last week in the penultimate episode saying like, all right, if this feels like we're just moving pieces into certain places, let's see how this all feels when we're done with the finale. And then the finale happens and it still feels to me like a moving pieces in places kind of episode. Absolutely. With some exceptions. And so then retroactively some things start feeling even shakier just because I'm like, oh, well, it didn't all, it didn't, the threads didn't weave together the way they wanted to. Anyway.

Yeah, for sure. And you're coming off such a high high too. It's like you're building the eye of Sia and then we ended in a shuttle that had been crashed into two ties. I, yeah, it's, I do wonder what this would have looked like as 12 episodes. I just can't stop thinking about it. I think to your point about like answers and stuff, we're on the, you and I are in the same place with that. Like,

For me, what went wrong at the end of the season is much less about did we get answers to Thing X and more did we have time for the conversations that matter? Did we have time for the character beats? Did the characters have time for each other? Those are the things that are going to linger. And especially you and I love... Character on an arc? Character on an arc, but we also like...

Conversations in rooms. Two characters sitting down. Elegant rooms, yeah. Having conversations. We talked about this a lot in our Loki Hall of Fame episode. Go listen. That kind of storytelling is hard to do when you're in a ticking clock plot. And we have been in a ticking clock plot for most of this season. So I'm glad you mentioned Loki because...

That was on my mind, too. Now, I think we would have had the same critiques of the finale no matter what. Yeah. But we just came off a full rewatch of all of Loki's appearances in the MCU, including the wonderful season one of Loki. And they're on the clock in season one of Loki, too. That's a six-episode season. And we have...

some of the most deftly crafted exchanges that not only is the writing beautiful and well-paced, it tells us something essential about the people who are speaking.

And, like, that was just... We had just spent all this time, like, lingering and luxuriating inside of that. Yeah. And we've gotten moments in this season of Ahsoka that make us feel that way. Like, the emotional reaction that the two of us had to something like Anakin saying...

Because I'm more than that. Like the show was capable of making us feel that way. If it hadn't been, it would have been less disappointing because then it's just like an okay show. But we did feel that way at times. So if you're not feeling that way at the end, you can't help but feel like,

Like you didn't get the promise. I didn't know I was going to have such a Pavlovian response, but you just said that and I started crying. Yeah, but right. So that's what I mean. This show made you feel that way at one point. It did. So if it isn't making you feel that way at the end, every minute, that's a bummer.

All right, let's talk about a conversation we did actually get between two characters about a certain substance. Sabine, this was quite sad to watch. Hu Yang is talking about the nature of the relationship between a master and an apprentice. Ezra's like, Kanan, my guy, my blade, I'm fortunate, I'm back, the force, lightsabers, Jedi, yeah, let's go. And she's frowning and she's receding and she goes outside. And that's where she finds Ahsoka sitting and reflecting.

This is where we get the opening clip from today that we heard at the top of the episode. They discuss the choice that Sabine made. And Ahsoka, who is often, you know, a lone ranger. We've talked a lot about Ahsoka the nomad. Ahsoka the wanderer. A Ronin. A Ronin. I loved the Ronin line from Thrawn. I'm really, really excited to talk about that. She is working here to find common ground with another person. She promises her apprentice that she will be there for her just as Anakin was for Ahsoka. Yeah.

How did this conversation work for you? Take me through it. Take me through all your thoughts. Well, I will say that there's something I really love about this idea of...

We've heard this from Sabine of like, I'm not going to leave you. Twilight of the Apprentice, I'm not going to leave you, not this time. All of that. We watched Sabine process this idea of her master Anakin and all of the things that he was and all of the things that she needed to wrap her arms around in order to feel at peace with all the things that he was. All of the things that Sabine is. All the messiness that comes with any person.

I think that is really interesting to think about. And I think it's really interesting to think about her tendency to leave and her decision to stay and this idea of I'm going to support you. And when she invokes Anakin, she's like,

my master stood by me, we of course have to think about her trial, her getting kicked out of the Jedi Order, and what happens in that plot line in Clone Wars is that Anakin plays Detective Anakin and he goes around and tries to clear her name, right? And he does. Shout out Ventress. Yeah, but like, that's a circumstance of Anakin sticking by her when no one else would, and she remembers that and that is important to her. When it comes to her

so easily letting Sabine off the hook here. You and I might disagree on this. I think there are degrees of letting someone off the hook. So when Anakin stands by Ahsoka in her trials, this is something that she's being falsely accused and he does the investigation to figure out how to clear her name. Sabine has made several catastrophic decisions right in front of our faces, in front of Ahsoka's face, all this sort of stuff.

I think there's a way to say, I'm with you. I believe in you is what Sabine really needs to hear. Right? I believe in you and I believe you can do this. Not, I'm afraid of you, which I guess is the message she was getting from Ahsoka before. I believe in you. I'm going to stick by you. But let's talk about some of your decision-making skills. That's what I would have liked to have seen. Not, I believe in you and I'm going to stick by you no matter what. Right?

Because I don't think that should be the message no matter what. There's never any sort of conversation we need to have about your decision-making skills. You know what I mean? So what do you think, Mallory? Okay, so this is interesting. I think you're raising a valid point. I'm in a slightly different place than you, but it's hard for me to find fault in your logic. I...

I think that if Sabine were like, well, what if I were responsible over multiple decades for perpetuating war and death and torture and torment and destruction across the galaxy? And then someone could say, is that what this is about? I'm sorry, I can say I forget about that already. We're still good, girl. Is that what this is about? We're good. Okay, so if we go back to that episode one moment,

And the kernel and source of Sabine's resentment. Because they both have areas where they think the other person has let them down or something that they're holding on to, right? I go where I'm needed. Not always. So, mostly the scene works for me for two reasons. Addressing that one, right? The...

We're no longer in that not always space. Like, I'm here for you. And it's not just physically that I came here and canned off the white road into the battle. It's that I'm here for you emotionally. I'm here for you spiritually. I'm here to help you develop and grow and find your confidence. It's that I believe in you thing that you mentioned a moment ago. Okay. I think also, as you were talking about in the prior exchange,

That fear, you know, if we think back to our live action introduction with Ahsoka in Chapter 13 in The Mandalorian and the Grogu assessment, this is a line we've talked about a lot dating back to our preview pods.

no, I've seen what such feelings can do to a fully trained Jedi Knight to the best of us. I will not start this trial down that path. They're both working through inside of this conversation so many foundational blockers for them that it feels like hugely meaningful. And I think the other thing, and this is maybe the, this is where we're on slightly different pages with it. Then again, I don't, I don't candidly don't disagree with the point you're making. If we think about the opening of,

Episode six. In the mouth of a purgle. Smells delicious. Oh, yeah. Love to be in the mouth of a purgle. And we think about how, like, really powerfully we bumped on what Ahsoka was saying to Hu Yang in that exchange. Because, like...

In addition to just the kind of core Ezra-Thrawn divide and why did it have to be this divide in the first place, I think we've spent a lot of the season lamenting this division or the way that the fear and the trepidation of the choice that Sabine would make or where it would lead her, why she made it, what that caused Ahsoka to project about herself or Anakin or anyone else.

Like she's heeding the counsel that she tried to impart earlier in the season. If we think about like the training sequence at the beginning of episode three, and she said, you know, anger and frustration are quick to give power, but they also unbalance you. She's trying to take her own lessons to heart here. And this feels to me, I think like,

This growth in particular for Ahsoka was just part of what the show was about for me. Totally. Watching her push through it. Absolutely. So I guess if she comes in, again, I don't, I'm not, every point you're making is valid and sound. The logic is strong. Yeah.

You were strong in the force. I think if she had come in and said, but I have these 10 notes for you. The let's talk about your decision making is a good way to frame it. That I can mesh with. I think if she were still hung up on the actual choice Sabine had made, it would feel like she hadn't progressed or evolved in the way that felt so central to the arc that she was on inside of this show. You know, that one is never too old to learn Snips idea from...

Episode five. I think we largely agree, to be honest with you, because I think we need to see a difference in Ahsoka and the way that she's thinking about Sabine. That is important. She's learning to be a master as much as Sabine is learning to be an apprentice. I did not say that word correctly, but that is important. But I think there's just a subtle tweak, a subtle modulation that could encompass something to do with...

we need to talk about your decision-making skills, especially right in advance of what's going to happen with the TIE fighter attack that we're about to see. Did you enjoy, at least when Ahsoka asked if Sabine had been keeping up with her training, let's put aside for the fact, Adam was just so hung up on this. He was like, he actually really enjoyed the finale, but he was like, it's only been a few days.

been a few days why is she asking her if she's kept up with her training which I thought was a fair note I thought it was really curious because like I would I would have loved that for a second I thought she was referencing sort of like yeah I guess I guess

In the few days. I thought she meant like in the, in the time since before when I trained with you. But they'd already had their training sequences. So it's like, wait, since when? The lightsaber was in a box. I don't know why you're, I don't believe that she was training. Yeah. Wild stuff. I did like though when she said, I try. I do. I do. And it's just like, fuck off, Yoda. Beats. That's enough sometimes. Shit and die. Shit, Yoda. Yeah.

And, you know, Ahsoka's comment about I'll tell you a secret being in Jedi isn't about wielding a lightsaber. That to me was reminiscent of a lot of Luke's lessons about the force to Rey in the last Jedi film that I like. So, you know, I liked that part. Great film. You know that? Yeah. Great film. Should we talk about the attack of the TIEs? Let's do it. Okay. Ezra emerges. He's hyped. The lightsaber is active. They're ready to go.

One problem. Actually, two problems. The Dyes have found their location. They hit no organic beings. No people. No Nody, thank God. Glad that I was very concerned about the Nody and the Howlers in this episode. But they do hit some pods and they hit the T6. Stabilizers. Out of commission. Sabine hot wires the shuttle. Yeah. Says it's all they're going to need. And, like...

It's like we're in the Fast and the Furious. We've got our boost, right? Our Nox. Our Nox, yeah. And we're going right into the two TIE Fighters. We're going to hold a maneuver in them. Yes. So what was more perplexing to you here? Yeah. Was it what Sabine did? Because objectively, without question, crashing your ship that you need to go reach Thrawn in

You are going to damage it further than whatever repair you could have done to the stabilizers from the shot that it already took. It's not like you can't be in a worse situation at the end of it. When she came back and was like, got him. I was like, this is like a relief pitcher who blew the game and was like, it was that you can't work yourself into a safe situation. I guess what I would remind Sabine.

Okay, so is it that, though? Or is it that the TIE fighters are just like, they put their hands over their eyes and they're like, oh shit, she's going to hit us. They could just move. The T6 is only so wide, Joe. If you move, she can't take us out. Don't you think the TIE fighters are sitting there saying, surely she won't damage her own fucking ship irreparably just to take us out. Surely Sabine's not that dumb. Okay, listen. Got him?

God, it was wild. If you listen to this podcast, you have heard me defend so much from Sabine. I have been on her side in the face of a lot of criticism. God, I'm lost. So listen, as her publicist, as her crisis management publicist, I would encourage her not to record a

and upload a video to Instagram explaining her activities. But I would... We're going to need to go harder than this to get over... Come back from Gotham. Again, this is just like... It was almost...

It was almost snotty. It was almost like, what? Got him. I just... I don't understand that. If she was like, it was the only thing I could think of to do. I didn't see any other way. Something like that. But then Ezra's hesitant to point out the position that she's put them in. Guys, this is going to slow us down. It's just like, what are we doing here? I'm going to need her to kiss a lot of crab babies. She's going to have to like...

rescue crab cats from trees and kiss a lot of crab babies and do a lot of rehab for her character going forward. Because Gotham... Astonishing. Astonishing. Gotham's astonishing. Hu Yang remained remarkably calm. I know you pointed out that he was like, what the fuck? But our guys spent the bulk of the season being like, you are not an acceptable candidate. And I was expecting him to be like...

He's just kind of like scratching his little like chrome dome and just sort of like, okay. He was as perplexed as anyone. Yeah. Here's the read on the situation from all parties. You noted that Ezra's like, it's going to slow us down. Ahsoka says it doesn't have to. Let's saddle up. Thrawn deems this an acceptable outcome, meaning the loss of the two ties because it was a successful strike before they died. They succeeded and then they immediately were killed by Sabine Wren for no reason. Yeah.

that's what I was going to say. Isn't Sabine's Gotham very Thrawn-esque? Well, that's a win. A win is a win, Sabine says. Thrawn has made some mistakes and has caught some elves, but I don't know that he's done anything akin to flying his own ship.

Into enemy combatants quite literally for no reason. When he needed it in desperate circumstances. Because the other people, Joe, the enemy, not sure if you've heard they're the enemy, they're trying to leave the spaceship. So you need your ship. It's important. But Thrawn's like, this is not going to stop them.

They're going to come howler high water, come howler, come crab person. They're going to come at the gates, prepare for a ground attack. Ground attack. Immediately. This is when I was like screaming at my TV, just leave.

Just literally. There's simply no reason for them to be there. And we did get that one shot. You could see in the hologram the image of how the eye of Siam was very... Do you like the... I'm, like, miming this, even though this is a podcast and no one can see me. Very slowly, like, moving its pincers toward the chimera. Well, they call you Grand Admiral Ruben for a reason. And it's because of your incredible tactics. And, yeah. I just...

Why is it so slow? But if it's so slow, then just don't have the line in the last episode about the time. It's just that simple. All right. If it's going to be this slow, just don't have the line in the last episode about the time. You know what? I want to talk about some zombies because I did like the zombies. Fucking love a zombie. Let's talk about the Zooper Troopers. Theory Corner panning out a couple weeks on delay, but panning out nonetheless. Love that for you.

No gas. No bags of gas. Bags of bones. Not gas. But here we are. Why didn't they emit the same plumes that Maruk did? Here's my theory. Okay. Tell me. Maruk had been a zombie for a while. Oh, you think you build up the gas? Sort of like as you decomp inside of your super trooper suit. Oh, interesting. You start to build up gases. Yeah. I love this.

And in that sense, it feels like Maruk and Morgan had been together for a while. And I feel like, you know, if I were Morgan, I would have been like, I did not cross the galaxies and sacrifice my gas bag son. My gas bag son, Maruk. Nobody gives a shit that Maruk is gone. Ahsoka will forget about it inside of the next sequence. Forget that Maruk ever existed. It's...

Maruk, he died for nothing. He died so that we could be two weeks early on Theory Corner, that's all. He died so we could speculate about who Maruk was for like two weeks of our lives. Before we get to the zombies, I did want to ask you because the howler setup, this isn't our horniest episode of Ahsoka, but it wouldn't be House of R if I didn't ask you this question. So we have Ahsoka on one howler.

and Sabine and Ezra on another and it's cozy and I want to know do you think we had a little like Theon and Yara oh my gosh oh yeah speaking of like a sister to me wow well I mean yeah yeah no but I was going to give you this

This is the first time where I was like, oh, you know, when he's, he's like giving her some like flirty eyes. He is hitting her with the flirty eyes. I missed you. Yeah, I missed you. Flirty eyes. Let's fuck again because we already have. And I was just like, I kind of feel like,

They could have found another howler. Like, I don't know that they needed to double up on the howler. That seemed like something Ezra was like, oh, let's just, oh, I'll just right behind you. It's like, okay, Sabine's sweet howler, the howler that Ahsoka took from Bailen. But like, the pretty is full of howlers. They're everywhere. Yeah. They wanted to be on that howler together. Oh, 100%. You needed me on that howler with you. You wanted me on that howler. Oh, boy. Okay, so, Morgan.

has secured a group of volunteers who waited 12 years for rescue and are now willing to die and serve as meat puppets as everyone else is finally leaving. It's a no for me, and it reminded me so powerfully of Thor the Dark World. This was like, this made me, I always am like astounded when I watch Dark World. Algrim waits 5,000 years with Malekith. 5,000.

Devotedly. Dutifully. And then like the second he wakes up, Malek is like, I'm going to need you to become the last of the cursed. It's like, I would just say no. These troopers have waited more than a decade. Unbelievable. What does this do to heighten your like Thrawn space Messiah God complex? Oh yeah. I mean like,

You know, Ben in his column said, like, why are these troopers so loyal to Thrawn? I kind of have a question about all stormtroopers. Like, stormtrooper as a gig seems like a pretty bad job. So I don't really understand why any stormtrooper... I also seem in this situation, like, there's some gratitude for him keeping them alive for all this time on this, again, canonical graveyard planet surrounded by a bone belt. Yeah.

I would just like to know, you know, what the Thrawn Kool-Aid looked like that they all drank before, yeah, pledging allegiance. It is for the Empire. We're all honored to make the sacrifice for you. It is for the Empire. The security of our galaxy. I was going to ask if this gave you Gravik vibes, but I don't want to talk about secret invasion. But it did, right? But it did. It's not about me. It's about the Empire. Yeah.

Good stuff. I did like that he asked if they were made aware of their sacrifice. That was like a very throngy moment. He believes in consent. Yeah. He's like, proper. Follow the checklist. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're gonna zombify somebody. You gotta have consent. Like, vocal, enthusiastic consent before you zombify someone. Yeah, you can't wait to become zombies. Yeah. It's just super wild. Ground attack. Zombie battle time. Yeah. Ezra doesn't know what awaits when they're on the cliff preparing to charge. Ahsoka asks,

This is where we get that woke up the witches line. He says it wasn't safe to come here alone. So there's some accounting for maybe why they didn't interact in the last decade-ish. Well, I understand why he didn't go to them. Yes. Mm-hmm. Clear, easy explanation. Yes. Why didn't Thrawn? Why didn't Thrawn go to Ezra? Maybe he's afraid of him. Okay.

My new question is, why doesn't anyone on the I.S.I.O.N. know that Ezra made it onto or off of the ship? That's my new question. The Great Mothers have Jedi smell powers. Selectives. They can smell Ezra on... Ooh, and then once again, reeks of Jedi.

Maybe they can only smell female Jedi. It's like Sabine and Ahsoka and they're like Balan and Ezra. I don't know. I'm not really sure. You know, I like this actually. That's I like that. Maybe you're right. Great. Why not? Joe, they charge. They charge. This had incredible John and the Battle of the Bastards energy. The arrows are raining down on our guy. Not a one pierces.

of the hellfire that Thrawn has ordered to rain down upon them hits them. I was so deeply and desperately worried about the howlers here. Oh, God. Yeah. Also, okay, they're okay at the end because they're back on them and they have the harnesses so it must be them. It seemed like they got exploded. Are they in the fortress and Thrawn is a

is attacking is outrageous that we did not have the clarity that they were okay at that point yeah we fucking we needed to see a shot of them somehow finding a side door at some point yes and like totally worried uh that raining hellfire down from the chimera has to make ezra and us think of thrones truly like vicious okay i'll just open fire on the people of la fall if you won't

If you won't, I'm always thinking about it. Come to me. To be honest with you. Me too. Uh, did you enjoy the Sabine help out moment as they're charging, charging toward the door? Need to open it. It seemed to be for a girl. Well,

What do you think? I can read it that way. As like, Sabine, I'm sure you're helping. We need you too. And like, we have no context as to whether or not Sabine holding her hand out there actually did anything. But if she felt like she was helping. I feel like it gave her a little jolt that she was asked to participate. It's like it loosened the lid on the pickle jar, right? Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Exactly. I thought this episode was gorgeous. This forces a pickle in this scenario. Yeah.

a dill pickle only. Okay. I was just going to ask you what kind of pickle you like. Thank you for anticipating my question. I know. What's your favorite pickle? A Clausen's dill pickle. A refrigerated Clausen pickle. A cold Clausen. Wow. My mom is going to love this and then probably send you another email asking if I've gone to the eye doctor yet. Get ready. She loves a Clausen.

Like a Bubba. Is it like Bubbies? Bubbles? I love like a sour pickle. I love like a Mount Olive. You know? Delicious. I love all sorts of pickled vegetables. Oh, yeah, yeah. But you know what needs to get out of here? A fucking bread and butter pickle. Uh-uh. No. No sweet pickles for me. No relish. None of that. On a hot dog? No relish? Nope. Ever. You've seen me dress my hot dog. It's only mustard. I've done it in front of you. Dress your hot dog.

Oh boy. Steve, a Chicago dog guy. I wonder if he'll have thoughts on this. I'm disgusted by that conversation. I'm so sorry. This is a real part of your ways for you two. Relish is a must. It's in Steve's soul as a son of Chicago though. It is. It is. What about chili on a dog? Don't Chicagoans put chili on a dog? Chili dogs are great. I love a chili dog. Do you not like a chili dog? No, I like a chili dog. This is the common ground we can find. You're building bridges. Beautiful. Reaching across the aisle for chili. Beautiful.

Are we going to keep talking about chili dogs or should we note quickly that this charging stretch looked incredibly odd visually? Just incredibly odd. Welcome. Chili dog of volume filming here. Welcome to the volume chat, Mallory Rubin. I feel like I'm usually the one who's like... Oh, man. ...pointing it out, but yeah. Yeah. This stretch and actually...

So being in Ahsoka on the hull of the T6, having their conversation, something about, I don't know, it reminded me of like when you're supposed to be inside a pickup that's driving, but you're just like,

The green screen is just rolling behind you. It had that kind of like uncanny effect. Very strange. Very strange. I did enjoy how the symbol on this door that they were rapidly charging toward as I was desperately afraid for the howler kind of looked like. Did this look like the like like Illuminati? Did you get like an Illuminati? Yeah, like Sith Holocron sort of thing. Oh, OK. Sorry not to go back. I hate to rewind. I'm glad you said that. That reminded me of one thing I wanted to say. If you'll allow me one moment here. Obviously.

On the Sith-Holochron front, thank you for saying this. I would have regretted if I hadn't mentioned this. That was the other thing, not to go back to a conversation we've already had, but on Ezra and Hu Yang having the what happened between them exchange, I'm like, if you're going to do it that way, which you shouldn't, but if you're going to, and Ezra is in possession of that information,

that the fear of Ahsoka, that Ahsoka's fear of Sabine falling to the dark side is the cause of their rupture, that Sabine lost her family, then there is no better character than Ezra to talk about that with Sabine, for them to talk about, oh, when I tapped into the Sith holocron and Maul kept calling me his apprentice, my mastermind.

Esther develops some trust issues too. Also, I lost my family. Sorry, there are two different galaxies now. So that conversation is just not going to happen. Like put it, don't do it this way, but if you're going to do it, put it earlier so they can talk after, not so they have to fly a ship into a two TIE fighters right away. Anyway, thanks for bringing up the holocron. It's zombie time. I appreciate it.

Oh man, Thrawn's face when they make it into the fortress. So good. Iconic. So good. That's actually my favorite Thrawn moment of the entire series. Oh boy. Yeah. Lars really brought it in that moment for sure. Great stuff. And he like you.

Came to the same conclusion. It is zombie time. Had to go tell the great mothers that it was zombie time. I enjoyed tracking the subtitles of their chanting, their magic, their wonderful stuff. I'm going to try this at a later date. Great groaning also later from the Zombs. Love some zombie groaning. Love some groaning. Love to groan. Praising. Oh, yeah. So Sabine, Ahsoka, and Ezra, they're battling the troopers. This is the first wave. This is still while they're alive.

Sabine, she's trying to use the lightsaber to block the blaster bolts. I actually thought this was really sweet. She's like trying so hard. She just keeps getting shot. She just keeps getting shot, Jo. She takes blaster bolt after blaster bolt to the chest. It's like, I feel good. That best card is working overtime. Oh my lord. So, so, cause just like, thirst. Yeah. That was amazing.

They beat them all. They cut through them. And then the troopers rise. This is where Ahsoka says, Ezra, this ever happened before? And he says, no, this is new. And it's like, did she forget? Well, to be fair, she didn't see him rise. Maruk doesn't rise from the dead. He's just like suspiciously gassy. He just sees this massive shit right before he died. She's in full Biparathian. Like, what?

They never tell you how they all shit themselves. They don't put that part in the songs. That's what's going through Ahsoka's head. What's the Star Wars version of Amodium AD?

Oh, boy. I guess, yes, you're right. She has never seen, like, a Night King-style raising of the Army of the Dead. That is fair. Ben called it Maruk Erasure in his piece, and I think that it's... Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's sad. It's sad that Maruk died for literally nothing. Can I talk about...

the music though can i talk okay so we get really cool creepy horror strings here as they start to rise and we got this great email from charlie that i wanted to shout out charlie writes about this composer named um camille saison a french romantic era composer and charlie wrote thrawn's music features the pike organ which is new for the show and i thought it was kind of perfect and

Saison was an organist and wrote one of the best symphonies for the organ. It was absolutely huge. His symphony number three, which is simply just called the Organ Symphony. He also wrote a lot of piano music, which is Balin Skoll's music. The Carnival of the Animals was originally a piano composition, but has been rearranged for orchestra. But you can feel Skoll's theme coming almost like the elephant theme. Heavy, strong, powerful.

Finally, the sort of thin strings, almost Halloween psycho music that became the Night Trooper theme is very clearly a take on Cécent's Danse Macabre, the Dance of the Dead, of death. No further explanation needed, I think. Yeah.

John Williams is the goat and the Star Wars theatrical release music is so thematically consistent and absolutely phenomenal. You guys have talked about how this story departs from the other canonical films thematically and introduces new characters. I think the music in Ahsoka has done the same. Solo piano as a theme is new for Star Wars.

I've never heard the organ. Williams copied great romantic Gustav Holst's Planets and Wagner and Strauss's great works for Star Wars. We know this from documentaries, et cetera, et cetera. I believe it's in that tradition that the composer for this show looked at Saison for similar but different sounds, themes, instruments to do the important work of setting this series apart from something, as something fresh, but with the same DNA as Star Wars, just like Filoni did. So, you know, we've been complimentary of the music,

all season from Kevin Kiner. Sublime! Sublime!

Amazing. And I will just say, I'm usually so terrible at identifying musical themes and these connections and stuff like that. But even I, in my classical music 101, heard the dance macabre in the Night Trooper sequence. So I will co-sign Charlie's entire point based on that one little connective thought. But I just think that that, I mean, I just think not enough can be said about the music in this season of television. Absolutely sensational. And especially in this finale. It's just...

I mean, the ending musical cues were just absolutely exquisite. Everything in the final, like the final beat with every character, the score that accompanied our shot of Dathomir was like, I got chills. Are they multiplying? I got chills. They're multiplying. I don't want it. Wow. Mean. Mousy. Mean. Tough.

But, yeah, those strings, those creepy horror strings. Gorgeous. As the Night Troopers. Okay. One thing that's a little silly about the Night Troopers is they're so scary. They're jerking around. They're moving like zombies. And then there's like... Their bones cracking. Yeah. There's just like a later sequence of...

when they're running up to sort of surround Morgan on the Morgan and Ahsoka. Yes. First of all, I don't know why they're just standing there watching that happen, but maybe Morgan's like, she's mine, but she didn't say that. Maybe she thought it. At that point, they're sort of moving fluidly. So I guess there's just like this little like intro, like creaky introduction. And then you get your like, you know, undead motor functions. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

But yeah, Zooper Troopers. Zooper Troopers. Love the Zoopers. What do you think, Senator, this report reads like a child's fairy tale Ziono is going to do when the Nightsisters and Thrawn unleash an army of the dead on the galaxy? I only regret that canon dictates that we won't get to see him bitten by a Zooper Trooper because he deserves it. He does. He really does. Okay, so our heroes retreat up the stairs.

slicing those blaster doors down into place. It's not stopping the zoopers. No. It may slow them, but it's not going to stop them. Oh, those zoops are going. You asked for a hustle earlier and they haven't. You're right. You're right. This is not something I was looking for. Yeah. What do you think the 40-yard dash time is for a zooper? Oh, I have no idea. What is a good time for a 40-yard dash? I'm curious what you think a good time for the 40-yard dash is. Why would you do that to me?

If you were a star running back or wide receiver, you were going to be a top, like a first round draft pick. And you were, you had elite speed. Like you were a burner. What do you think your 40 would be? Do you remember that time when we did a podcast about yellow jackets and you asked me which part of my friend I would eat first? And I made the mistake of answering you. And then you made fun of me for the rest of my life. I said, I would simply not eat a part of my friend. So I'm just saying, is it like mere seconds?

Or is it minutes? Is it mere seconds? Damn it. I knew I shouldn't have answered it at all. Oh, no. I love this. This is beautiful. It's mere seconds. Okay. Mere seconds. Yeah. Should we do a ringer versus combine? Some three cone? Combine a machine you use to like thresh your wheat?

Oh my God. This is one of the best moments of my life. I'm just thrilled right now. I genuinely and truly could not love you more. Harvest. That's what a gold mine is. Where's that thirsty energy? I'm in tears. I'm not wrong. Technically, I'm not wrong. Yeah. This just shows you how much there is for all of us to share, really. Morgan is not going to get to share it in...

The ringer verse combine joke because she needs to stay behind to die. She is about to be threshed. So, you know, the Jedi are advancing swiftly. Theron says she, she comes up by the way. She's like, we did it, Joe. She's like, we can, we can leave. The eye is latching on the chimera. It's all happening. And he's like, pump the brakes. Point of order. The Jedi are advancing swiftly.

At this rate, they may get on board the ship because of that. Because they're tracking it like a... Not quite a 4-3-40, but they've got like a 4-5. Yeah. Maybe like a 4-6-40, which would be problematic. Mirror seconds. Mirror seconds. We require a little more time. It's not a great way to say thank you for building the Eye of Scion and traveling the pathway to Peridia to rescue. Can I just say... It's not. That...

Morgan Elspeth as a character is not one that I feel like very deeply about, but I think Diana Leigh Inosanto in this episode is quite good. And I think her hesitancy, her bitterness, her resignation, all of those subtle emotions that are crossing her face at a number of different moments in this episode...

really worked for me. I thought they were really good. I agree. I like the way that you can see when I said I would swear my life to you. I didn't mean like three scenes later. I liked too, to that point, because one of the things we discussed the last couple weeks was how it was genuinely, it was intriguing that she did this, right? She hears these voices, she builds the Aes Ion, she travels to find them, these whispers. I mean, I am...

I'm going to like forget my original point here because I'm now three sub points deep. But like, I am like, wait, is Morgan the only one responsible for the whispers about Thrawn's return as heir to the Empire? It seems like who else would have the whisper? She's spreading the whispers. Is she on Zooms with the Shadow Council? This is like relevant to the thing I was about to say because what I liked on the heels of our questions the last couple episodes about, oh, she's like,

questioning Thrawn a lot. And this is surprising, not in terms of seeing how somebody interacts with Thrawn, but because she did all this to go there and then she's like, wait, are you sure? It's like... I like to think that this is why he had her stay behind. He's like, they're a little insubordinate. No, you know he loves a question. He loves a question. But...

It feels like she didn't come for Thrawn. She came for the witches. This is the thing. And she came for Dathomir. This was the clarity. Right. So he says, for the Empire. And she says, for Dathomir. For Dathomir. Right. Exactly. And she says it quietly. And again, I really liked the performance. Waited till he walked away. Yeah. For Dathomir. For Dathomir. And I really liked that. So like, she's not... Well, actually. I'm not too...

To quote Angelica Schuyler from Hamilton, I'm not here for you. Right. She's not there for Thrawn. Right. She's there for whatever the fuck ever. But is she not there for him at all? Is it because like it's the Dathomir clarity here was important. You know, we're thinking about that Shin conversation at the beginning of the season. Like you're a survivor in this quest. Clearly this like sacred mission to restore the power for people back on. But Dathomir back in her galaxy, in their galaxy, like,

But that's why I brought up the Shadow Council, because it does seem like the restoring of the Empire is also... Unless she's just trying to build enough support to fuel the building of the Eye of Sion and the Quest. But she did construct the Imperial Navy for the Empire. She does have long-running Empire ties, too. So is it both of these things in tandem, and we just see it here...

that the Dathomirian thrust is maybe the most close to her heart? Or do you think it's that more than the other one? It made me think of Ezra and Lothal because, you know, you hear a lot of people say like, Ezra abducts Thrawn out of continuity using some burgles to save for the rebellion. Yeah.

I mean, he really did it to save Lothal. Like, that was really what was at the heart of it for him. There's the larger rebellion, too. When the rebellion wouldn't come help. Yeah, you're right. Definitely. So, like... Yeah. So, does Ezra believe in the rebellion? Yes. But more importantly than the rebellion, he believes in Lothal. And this is, like, that idea that we talked about... One of the reasons it would have been incredibly powerful to hear him and Sabine have a conversation about doing drastic things for the people you love. Yeah.

And or, hey, if you get back and I don't, can you feed my cat? More on that later. Okay, so. What the fuck is wrong with us? This is how you know we've both had a week, man. Merle Camp. We'll save it for the end when we get to Merle Camp. We'll save it. We'll talk about it later. Yeah. We have a lot to say, I promise. But this is a thing that we talked about a lot when we talked about Andor. This idea of like individual spaces being,

that the empire wants to smooth out into one like, you know, monoculture and what the rebellion is fighting for is the individuation, the specific cultures of these planets. And so for the empire is not what Morgan is interested in. She's interested in her people, her planet overall, the empire means to an end and,

uh, for that is sort of what it seems like to me. Similarly, Ezra is like, sure for the rebellion, but for the Lothal, you know, good old Lothal. I just can't wait for Ezra to get back to Merle. I can't wait now that he's back, go to Lothal,

check on the Loth-Cat, go back to your comms tower bunker. I need to see. I need, like, an update. Thank you to the Star Wars social team for giving us Merlicam today heading into the finale. It was important and wonderful. They might as well have tagged us again. I really believe that they're House of Our Listeners. Honestly, it was incredible. Like, an incredible moment. The number... I texted you. I was like, I woke up to, like... I thought something, like, truly terrible had happened. It was like, I have so many notifications and it was all of our wonderful bad babies tagging us about the day.

I don't have notifications set up on my phone that way. So I woke up. It was like 7.45. I had slept in because it's my birthday. And I woke up and... Is 7.45 sleeping in? On a weekday? When did you normally wake up? Are you like a 5 a.m.er? No, I'm just like closer to 7. Closer to 7 than to 8, you know? But like I woke up. I got a text message from someone and I texted you immediately. And you're like, cool story, bro. I've had a million notifications about this. And I was like, oh.

And then I looked at Twitter and then I looked at Instagram and then I looked at TikTok and then I looked at her email and I was like, oh yeah, I do have a million notifications about this. I thought I was bringing you news, but I was behind. No, as always, I see your text messages before I see anything else.

Love you too, even though you like sweet pickles. I love any sort of pickled vegetable. Next time you're in LA, I'm going to take you to have this absolutely sublime relish tray full of pickled vegetables from Bertie G's with a just fantastic onion. Have you ever chased shots of vodka with pickled vegetables? A Ukrainian taught me this. It is unbelievable.

Wonderful. Sounds great. Wonderful. It just like cuts the vodka perfectly. Yeah. So let's get some like nice cold vodka and your weird little relish tray and have a good time. Perfect. I'm in. Steve, you're invited. Steve's invited only if he doesn't make fun of me for thinking a combine is a farm equipment.

Steve told me I couldn't sing on the pod. So the invitation is like pending. Salty Steve, you know? Salty like a glorious pickle. I'm hungry. It's hitting me now. We are talking about food a lot. It's dinner time. It's the dinner hour. But first, let's talk about those intestines again, Joe, because our trio has reached Morgan's level. Sabine has remembered. Yes.

Has remembered who Yang's words. Stay together. You always did better that way, in my opinion. And wants to help Ahsoka. We stay together, remember? But Ahsoka says no. There's no time for that right now. Orders them to stop Thrawn. There's a hilarious shot of Sabine and Ezra. You brought up how the troopers could have probably tried to take a shot at Ahsoka as they're standing in a circle later. There's a shot of Sabine and Ezra as they're working their way toward the next step where they're just, they like easily could have

Easily could have stabbed Morgan in the back. Easily. But they just kind of look great stuff. And then we get the rematch. The rematch of the duel from the Mandalorian chapter 13.

Beskar spear versus lightsabers on Corvus. In that fight here, we have the magical wreathed blade versus the sabers. Fun fight choreography. I really liked, we get it in stages. You know, we're cutting in and out of the fight and they're moving up and down levels. The troopers are there later. I thought this was really fun and cool, much as the first one. But this one had a little bit more like fluidity and movement. They're dancing about, they're moving across levels. Did you enjoy this? Yeah, I mean, we should say that

A reason why you hire Diana Leone Santo is because of her fight choreography prowess. Yes. And I have been frustrated all season that we haven't gotten to see her do what she does. And I thought this is some of the best. I just I loved this. I love this fight. Really good. Really great. Let's talk about Sabine using the force. Mm hmm.

We move atop the reflex point and Sabine and Ezra confront not just night troopers, but death troopers, two zombie. Scary. These guys loved them.

We're cutting back and forth. Thrawn is up on the ice saying, take us out. Ahsoka's looking up as the ship begins to rise. Like, you're feeling that clock here keenly. One of the troopers knocks off Sabine's helmet. She and Ezra are both disarmed. And Sabine is in a desperate situation. Helmet off.

pinned, disarmed, and Joe, she reaches out. Yeah. And she's strange, and she strains, and she tries, and she tries, and she does it. She pulls the saber. She uses the force. She taps in. Save, unless you find it impossible to separate the two things, and that would be completely fair. Save the force push thoughts for a minute. We'll hit that in its own conversation. This, this moment, using the force to summon her lightsaber, a classic Star Wars moment.

How did this work for you for Sabine's first solo force usage? Not like hearing Ahsoka through the force. This is her using the force. I'm fine with it, honestly. Like, I do think, like, maybe it would have been nice to see her, like, budge something. You know what I mean? Like, Steve Rogers-style, slightly nudge Mjolnir a couple films before we see him actually wield it or whatever. So, like... Maybe some of that dust that was falling in the prison and the fortress was from her. Okay. Maybe it was.

Maybe she did help with the door. I really said I had no, I don't have any real notes about this. I think this is fine. And I, we talked before the season, how we didn't want to be new before sensitive. Right. Where are you on that bigger question? We kind of changed our mind about it. Like, I don't think she needs to be, but we always talk about how we like the democratization of the force. We like the broom boy idea. We like all of that. So I don't mind that. I don't actually mind at all.

that she pulled her saber. And if that had been her only use of force in this episode, I would have walked away completely fine with it. How do you feel about the saber pull? It's tough for me not to make a pull in the saber Ezra Sabine joke right now, but I will refrain, even though I guess I didn't refrain by saying that. I feel exactly the same way. I think that

There's it was clear that we were building toward a moment like this in the finale. And so given the show's intention to move toward this point, I think that this felt appropriate and satisfying. And like we saw and we got to understand how Sabine was wrestling with her insecurity about the force. You know, if we think back to that episode conversation, I can't use the force. I don't feel it.

Not like you do. And Ahsoka trying to say like the force resides in all living things that to your point of democratizing the force, Filoni's clear interest in widening the access to the force, uh,

I like all of that. That blockage that Kanan had cited in Rebels. No, the Force resides in all living things, but you have to be open to it. Sabine is blocked. And that she's moving past that blockage because of that... Of Ahsoka's faith in her. Step that she and Ahsoka took. That all is... Great. That all is great. And I think that this particular...

I need my saber. First of all, there's like the desperation of the moment, the kind of urgent peril. But it's also like, it's personal. It's intimate. And it's small. And Ezra's in danger. Ezra's in danger. I think it adheres to, I guess your mileage may vary on whether this fits start small or that would have been like moving the cup on the table. But I think relative to what we get next, this certainly fits the start small. She gets to do that move that I love from like the Last Jedi throne room fight, the laser beam.

you know, yeah, the lightsaber. Instant activation right through the dome. Great stuff. I love it. I also think that the other reason that this works for me to get back to what you were saying about our kind of preseason angst about this is

I don't think the show ever made Sabine feel like she had to use the Force or had to be a Jedi to, like, feel worthy or valid. Like, she chose to resume her training. She chose to pursue this. And that's a really important difference that the show honored, I think. And throughout this episode, she, with her armor, with her blaster, like, is using... Picks up the Mandalorian helmet at the end. Yeah. You know, I was a little bummed about that, but that's okay. And you hate a helmet. But you love...

you love holding on to all aspects of yourself. I do. I do. She's doing the Tar Vizsla. She's doing the Grogu. If Luke had said pick between the shirt or the saber, she would have said eat shit, Luke. She really would have. And I choose to believe that that's what Grogu said too, only in Babbles and Coups. You know? Oh. Steve, I almost forgave you for making fun of me. Thank you, Steve. All right. The eye rises. And so does Ezra. The eye is opening. Okay.

Ahsoka's battling Morgan. The troopers are closing in. The Eye of Sion begins to move higher into orbit. Very slowly still, Joanna. Very, very slowly. Ezra says that he cannot make the jump. And Sabine says, yes, you can. I appreciate the confidence. No.

I push you first and you pull me across. Sabine, Ezra, I can do this. Ezra, the longer you hesitate, the harder it gets. Come on. Rebels force push callback time. Here it is. This is the debate of the week. The great force push debate. What side do you come down on? It's patently ridiculous. It's not a debate. Everybody feels this way. Such an unnecessary debate.

Like, we had the moment. We got it. We had the moment. We had the moment. We had the moment. And then this just makes it look silly. Yeah. And that's unfortunate. I think it was... It is unfortunate because it undercuts the lightsaber moment and makes it more likely that the entire outcome of Sabine using the Force is the thing that's under fire instead of this particular...

Like, I think that there could have been a version of a more robust deployment of force power where it's like, I don't know, a little bit of a like Harry knew he could cast his Patronus because he already had kind of thing. She uses the force successfully and then her confidence builds. And so she does something like together or together. So I thought this is what I thought at first. Obviously, this is not what happened. But I did think that she would turn around and see that Ahsoka.

had helped. Yeah. But that was not the case. That was not the case. That was not the case. Yeah. What do you think Peter B. Parker would have said? You know, it's a leap of faith. Now he would have had some notes too, probably. He would have been like, guys,

Let's start small, build up to something. Okay, here's what's unfortunate about this. It makes me feel like one of those freaking incels who don't like the sequel trilogy for the bad reason. There are plenty of nuanced takes on the sequel trilogy. Incel joke. Some of our best friends, man, don't like The Last Jedi. Our dearest and most beloved friends. That is okay. But some incels...

like have notes that are bad faith. And I don't think there's anything that Ray, Ray, who is positioned as like a force dyad and eventually fucking Palpatine's one out descendant. I,

I have no notes about the way that Rey uses the Force. That's not the story we're trying to tell with Sabine. Sabine is not, I hope, some shiny special Palpatine descendant Force dyad individual. I hope she's someone, a normal Mandalorian who was able to unlock...

Her low M count force presence inside of her to grab her lightsaber when she needed it. Great story. Her M count is the same as like a really good 40 yard dash time. Which is mere seconds. Mere seconds, as we all know. To be able to fucking launch Ezra across the Grand Canyon is the stupidest. Like, why would you do that?

And it's like a really unfortunate own goal. I think the reason that you just said is a great one. Like we don't want to be, oh, should Sabine be able to like have this power? That's not really like the point, but you take something like Ezra believing in her, which is powerful and cool. And you undermine it with the particulars or you take a lesson like the one Ahsoka was trying to impart in episode three.

We talked about this for a while on that pod. Learning to wield the Force takes deeper commitment. How? That's something you'll have to discover. Like, Sabine's individual journey of discovery for her connection to the Force is, like, a cool and important thing to see. But you can't focus on those aspects of it if she's Force-pushing Ezra into a seven hyperdrive-powered ring that is...

It's very slowly, admittedly, elevating back into orbit. That's baffling. Very strange. I do like, okay, but to move on to the next part, Sabine's choice, right? I like that she decides to stay. Honestly, like... I do too. Yeah. Because, not just because of Huiying's, like, stronger together...

Stay together. You're always stronger that way sort of thing. But I like this idea that like Sabine's like, it's not that Ezra himself is the most important thing in the galaxy to her. It's who needs her help the most in this moment.

So Sabine, for all her impulsive bad decisions, let's, as Sabine's publicist, let's come, let's like craft this in a positive light and say her goal was to rescue Ezra. And rescue Ezra she did. Right. She got to go home. And now her goal is to save her master. Right. You know? And like if we think about what Balin said to her when he was...

enticing her, tempting her in episode four. I know you feel that Desiree Bridger is the only family you have left. Like, it's actually important that she realized that's not true. Right. Because Zeb is out there. No, but also because... And Hera. And Jason. No fucking, no skeleton crucians. And her cat. And no Zeb in this season of Ahsoka. Astonishing stuff! Other than just his cropped off face in the mirror.

But it is important that she embraced it, Ahsoka, that that relationship, and especially on the heels of what Ahsoka says to her, right? Like, I'm going to be there for you. That's what the master and apprentice relationship is. It's like all of this moving in all directions and you providing that for each other. So I also, I was like tormented by this because it was,

It is just devastating to me. Were you up two minds? I was up two minds. I actually wasn't up two minds. I was not at war with myself. I was not up two minds. I liked, I'm with you. I'd like the choice that she made. It felt right to me. It just made me really sad that she and Ezra are apart again after being together so fleetingly. The one thing that I wanted here was, and I liked ultimately, I thought it was, it was in real time, satisfying to watch the way the reveal played out. We think she left, but,

Morgan gets the, your friends are dead and you will die here alone, dig it. And then it's like, not alone. And there she is, Sabine. And it's wonderful. Our hearts surge. And then all of the zoopers are like, oh yeah, we can fight. And decided to like get back into the action. Boys!

The one thing I wish... You make wonderful points often about is the twist or is the reveal worth it at the expense of a character moment? And I like what we learn about Sabine on the character front in terms of the choice she made, but I just wish we had seen... Like, she runs back. What does it mean to Ezra? What is that final moment between them? I feel a little robbed of that. Does she signal? Does she say something? What is he...

do in turn I wish we had gotten more of him like giving us the old Balin skull the look the look or even if he just says to her like it's okay like I understand or if he's like oh wait what yeah get on your ship get on your ship

me faster you still actually have time you know sort of thing oh man right yes that that as well okay Morgan's Morgan's viscera stays largely inside of her body as far as we can tell ghostly whale she was double sliced in the gut ghostly whale iconic remarkable the final chase

And a final taunt from Thrawn, whose observation on Morgan's service was that she has done what was required. Thank you for the final performance review, Grand Admiral Thrawn. It's been a pleasure doing business with you. I really hope that Enoch is getting his CV together for when they get back to the other galaxies so that he can find a new job. Oh, man. Get your letters of rec together, Enoch. Our thing is LinkedIn immediately. Yeah.

The gold, the cool gold mask is not worth it. Get out. You got to get out of there. Got to get out of there, buddy. Incredible. Yeah.

We get to see Ezra. He hears the comm alert on these two fucking, these troopers who didn't bother to shoot them. And then, of course, Ezra takes them out. Classic. Classic Ezra. Ezra move. This is such an Ezra move. It was, this more than any other, like, have you watched Rebels moment? Oh, yeah. Delighted me. Like this, it's not even, it's not even an Easter egg. It's just the literal plot. But I was just like, yay.

He's going to steal some Stormtrooper armor. Ezra was doing Trooper cosplay. It was heaven. It was just absolutely heaven. And you impersonating someone on the comm, all of it. It was just wonderful. If it were me, not to hop ahead, but if it were me, I would have taken my Stormtrooper helmet off before I exited the ship in front of the rebels. But other than that. Worth it for the payoff. No, no. Worth it for the payoff. Yeah.

Thrawn orders the fortress destroyed. I thought the Great Mothers looked very displeased. Yeah. I'm wondering if a little rift is coming in this great alliance between Grand Admiral Thrawn and the Great Mothers. As soon as we get back to Dathomir, I feel like they're done with him.

Ahsoka and Sabine jump over the edge. Hu Yang, no surprises come through in the clutch. Great shot, by the way, from their stunt doubles. Like great action jumps. Like I would freeze frame that moment of them just like action jumping over the side of the thing onto the ship. Great moment. And this is where you would freeze frame the grabbing of the helmet to cut it out of your episode. But I liked it.

At least it came off in that like, like in some key moments, it came off. So we can see her face as she makes certain decisions, you know, because imagine, imagine if she force pulled that fucking lightsaber with the helmet still on and all we saw was like a gentle tilt of the helmet as she pulled it. Uh-uh. No. Helmet acting bad. The old din. The gentle tilt. I love it.

The T6 is in hot pursuit, Joe. Hot pursuit of the eye. Can't reach it. Not enough power. Tepid pursuit. Medium warm pursuit. Nobody's aware that Ezra is on board. Very strange. But Thrawn does know one thing and it's that Ahsoka cannot catch him in our best Tywin Lannister voice. The battle

We have won again. Big Ezra's there because Ezra's on board. But other than that, they've won. Steve, can we hear this radio message, this signal from Thrawn to Ahsoka? Open the channel, please. Ahsoka Tano, allow me to commend you on your efforts today. You've been quite a worthy opponent. Can you not get me any more power? I regret we haven't met face to face and perhaps now we never shall. Still, I know you.

Because I knew your master. I concluded your strategies would be similar. One wonders just how similar you might become. This is where a Ronin such as you belong. Today, victory is mine. Long live the Empire.

That ruled. That, you know what? That was amazing. You know what? That was great. You know, I've been, I've been down on some Thrawn stuff. I really liked that a lot. When he says you lost today, when he says today, victory is mine. It reminded me a lot of that last quote. I like you lost today, kid. That doesn't mean you have to like it, you know, just like, no, I'm not, I'm, you know, the word, the war goes ever on. And, uh,

Yeah. And what I love is that, yeah, he's trying to spook her by being like, I know who Anakin became. Right. What a flex. Is that a new... I'm one of the few people who figured it out. And I will...

I love, I mean, before he says, it comes before he said that, but when he's just like making his grandiose speech and she's just like, can you not get me anymore? She's not really listening. She's like, come on team. Let's go. Let's go. So yeah. And then, and then the road in line, as we already mentioned was phenomenal. Fantastic. I love the, I love the Vader part. I especially liked that.

If this exact exchange had happened in episode four, this breaks Ahsoka. It breaks her. And I think it's similar to what Balin taunts her with before he sends her over the cliff. And look how she responded. And so for her...

I mean, she's intrigued, I think, by the, oh, you know, he knew Anakin became Vader part of it. It's like, that's a notable thing. But that effort to like prey on her fear of a fall. Yeah. She is just in a different place with herself and her own insecurity after the world between worlds. And like, we have that clarity and he doesn't. And that was a really, that was a satisfying thing for the journey that we've been on with Ahsoka. Yeah.

The Ronin Lime, I love for so many reasons. First of all, just the Lars Mikkelsen, like, it's just the Thrawn voice here is perfection as he's saying that. It's like absolutely delicious.

Ronin, obviously the idea of a Ronin, big Star Wars influence. If anyone listening has not watched Star Wars Visions, check it out. It's wonderful. There's a great Ronin short in there that also then inspired a related novel. Fantastic. This is like a core Star Wars idea. And I like thinking about how this connects to a lot of our preview pod discussion of Ahsoka and early season discussion of Ahsoka as like this lone wolf, right? And...

There have been times where this idea of like, you're a Ronin, you don't have a master, you're on your own, would have felt, first of all, true and fair, but also like a thing that wounded her. And it's not where she is right now. Like she's building something again with Sabine. The Ronin in the episode is Balan. Would you say the lone crab dies, but the crab packs survive?

Oh, man. The bush will survive. It's great. It's beautiful. Put it on the merch. That was really high on my list of possible Thrones tattoos for a while. You know, Sophie Turner has the... The lone crab does. The lone wolf version, but maybe I'll do the lone crab now. But I've always loved the, you know, she's got the Stark sigil and then the Pax arrives. Wonderful tattoo. It's not too late for me. Maybe I'll still do it. It's never too late to be more like Sophie Turner. Yeah.

Perhaps now, we never shall. Now, who knows what the future brings? Part of the thesis of Ben's piece was that the unfortunate trade-off this episode made was successfully setting up the future of Star Wars at the expense of satisfyingly concluding this season of TV. There's no question that Thrawn and Ahsoka will meet at some point, and I think that after this season, it feels like...

The question of, like, is that the central dynamic of this stretch of story? How will the fact that Ahsoka is on Paridia influence her tie to this larger stretch? Like, are we building toward Grogu versus Thrawn? Are we building toward Ahsoka versus Thrawn? What is the ultimate key oppositional force inside of this? I'm sorry, Grogu versus Thrawn?

It is literally my dream. Talk about a thing I'm not sure I'll survive. Grogu versus Thrawn, just all of my favorite things. What if it's an Ahsoku, Grogu, and Merly team up? I feel like you just said Ahsoku, like Grogu and Ahsoka's celebrity couple name, Ahsoku. I love it.

Yeah. Well, actually, I actually think it might have to be Ezra. Just because... Ezra, Thrawn, yeah. Ezra, Thrawn, they're the space messiahs. They've been on the collision course the whole time. Certainly Ahsoka, Balan. I mean, we'll talk about what's going to happen with good old Balan's skull, but certainly an Ahsoka, Balan rematch is in order. Should we talk about... Okay, so Ezra, Thrawn is the number one this is what we're building toward for you. And then Grogu, Ahsoka, everyone else is kind of a... My issue with... Here's my issue with Ahsoka, Thrawn. Though...

Part of me really wants that to be the case. Ahsoka is a warrior. Like, we see her calling some shots here, but she doesn't strike me as a strategist as much as Ezra strikes me as a strategist. And so Thrawn is not going to... Is that because you hate women and don't think Sabine should be able to use the Force? I mean, do you want to come to my next Encel meeting? You're welcome to come. But, like, she's a warrior, right?

Ahsoka is going to beat someone by like fighting or not fighting them. That's Ahsoka's thing. Thrawn needs to be out. Ahsoka is the heart, right? Yeah. Thrawn needs to be outwitted. And that feels like, well, yeah, sure. But not Grogu. You got to get Ezra in there. I don't think Grogu is the military strategist you're looking for here. Maybe Din is the strategist.

Sure. Sure. Maybe. Why do we think Darius is droids these days? Maybe. Cobb Vanth is the strategist. Is this all building to Cobb Vanth v. Thrawn? Who knows? By the way, shout out to all the bad babies.

who, when they saw the Merley cam and were like, surely that's for Mallory, they were like, where's the Cubs? I mean, Mallory suggested this to me as well. This was also, this was to be clear, actually my text to Joanna, not, I've seen this already, it was, where's Cubs fans?

The suggestion that they set up a cam outside of the Bacta tank and we just watched Cobb Vanth float around in some Bacta goo. To quote Mobius from season one of Loki, feels right. It's appropriate. Oh boy. I have to say, in general, you are not famous for your impressions, but your Owen Wilson is pretty good. It's pretty good. Thank you. You're welcome.

Oh, boy. Okay. The eye gets away, Joe. Love these energy pulses. I'm going to miss watching this. It looks wonderful. T6. Knocked back. Thrawn did it. He won. Anything else you want to say about the eye escaping before we get to this final sequence of our final glimpse of all of our characters? I would like to do a dramatic reading of your text to me after I alerted you to the Merly cam. Here's what you said.

I woke up to so many Instagram alerts and was alarmed that they were all about this. Thank you, Star Wars. Merly, adorable name. I'll be watching this all day. And then because it was my birthday. Happy birthday, my darling friend. I hope it's magical and brilliant just like you, lovely. So that's two texts. And then keep Merly Kim going 24-7 for the rest of time. Is that too much to ask? So that's text number three. Text number four. It's been 15 minutes since I just

already auto-correcting to all caps. Appropriate. And then text number five. Now where is Cobb Vanth Cam? Talk about a birthday present. So yes, we got to Cobb Vanth eventually. Oh man. Let's see how it is. I can't read your cheek portals, but you can read all of my seven text messages left.

Sorry, this is just payback for you asking me how fast one dash is 40 yards or whatever it is. How quickly does one dash 40 yards? Incredible. Near seconds, it turns out. Okay. Oh, man. We should get you on some of the draft pods this year. How quickly does one dash 40 yards? Ben Solek? You remember in The Avengers, the film? Familiar, yeah. When Loki says... Have you ever been lost? Loki says, I know not where...

No, not where. I'm like, Loki, you aren't actually the Shakespeare. Okay. Should we finish up this episode of television? Let's do it. Closing sequence. We get a lot of important final glimpses with a lot of characters, including a couple who are not in the episode aside from this. Baelin and Shin.

We see Shin arriving at the bandit base, raising her lightsaber. We see Balin just in a Lord of the Rings movie. He's gazing out at Mount Doom. He's standing in front of the Argonauts. I like that you said Mount Doom. It reminded me of the, of the, you know, like the fires of Gondor. Gondor calls for aid. Yeah.

I think the, yes, that. I think the reason it felt very Mount Doom-y in addition to it being a mountain with like, it's an orange light, but it sort of evokes like fire spewing, but, and the eye above it, the kind of like, the eye of Sauron, but like, mostly just because of, and we'll talk about this with Ben, what his quest is, I feel like they're going potentially for some sort of like, what was forged here that must be undone here. Mount Doom comp with- Love that.

And I really talk about that with Ben in a minute, right? Yeah. We're not going to get too much into it. I will just say, I will just say that the reason why I was thinking, I think of the signal fires is on the, on the, and I told you this before on the, on the tattoo front, that is a tattoo. I am like very close to getting is the signal fires from Lord of the Rings.

L-O-T-R. On my forearm. Yeah, on my forearm. Fantastic. Yeah. We really should get a tattoo together soon. Okay.

Let's do it. Steve, you're invited. The Mortis gods behind Balin, the father, the son, the crumbled daughter statue, Mirai appearing to Ahsoka. Put a pin in all of it. We're talking about all of that with Ben today, and we're going to speculate a little bit about season two and talk about the canon. My incel group has been here, and they have personally demolished the daughter off the face of the Mortis Mount Rushmore. Incredible. This is where the eye appears. Uh-huh.

front of Dathomir. Thought this was incredible. This gave me a chill. We get a glimpse of the cargo hold. When we were just seeing the hollow, I was like, did it need to take three rotations to load all these coffins? And then we see the full amount. I did some counting. Oh. Did you count the stacks? So each cluster, each bundle, I believe, I believe is 60 coffins, each bundle. So there are thousands. Wow. Thousands of coffins down here. How long does it take? Because it's three stacked. How long does it take for one to stack 40 yards? Yeah.

Not mere seconds. I'm telling you what. Yeah, this is like a full three rotations. Those fucking night troopers. I mean, they deserve to be zombies. Slow as fuck. And then here we get Ezra and Hera. This is a mirror of Bale and Shuttle. Remember Captain Hale? Yeah.

of the show talking his shit. Wild times. Fun to have an excuse to think back to that moment. But it is, of course, not Balin in the shuttle, Jo. It's Ezra. Can I just say on the Captain Hale front, I just never thought I'd get an opportunity to talk about Captain Hale again. Someone pointed out...

to me after the fact that the actor playing Captain Hale is Mark Ralston who's just like a real scary piece of shit in the cinematic masterpiece Shawshank Redemption which also stars Clancy Brown so we got multiple Shawshank folk at the beginning of this series. Ideal. Sublime. Sublime. Yeah. I know there's a lot of you mentioned this earlier a lot of like

Couldn't we have lingered on Ezra and Hera for another moment and seen a hug? I will say I thought this fucking killed me. I was weeping. I was in tears. Seeing Ezra take his helmet off, seeing Chopper

sends Ezra. I mean, the chopstick was great. And Ezra rubs his little head and then he takes his helmet off. And the way Hera's face looks when she sees him and she says his name and he says, hi, Hera, I am home. I was just in shambles. Shambles. Okay. And I love you. And then you get to think like, when does he go home to Merle? But also like, he's never met Jason. He's going to get to meet Jason. What will you do if he meets Jason off screen and already knows him by next season?

I consider that likely. Okay. Mike, our listener Mike. Don't tell me you wanted more Jason in the final minutes of I Know You Didn't. No, but I'm just saying I want season two, episode one to be like, we have a kid and his name is Jason. Our listener Mike, this is just for you, Mal, says, as we're arriving home and Chopper, oh, there's like gentle reverb on the crowd.

Some Nightsister action there. Is that a zombie crow? A Zro? Okay, so Ezra arriving home and Chopper recognizing him is like Ghost recognizing Jon was alive again. And I just wanted to shout that out to you, Mallory Rubin. Ghost is my favorite character of all time. Chopper does... Do you think that Chopper and Ezra have a warg bond? Chopper does kind of canonically...

Not like Ezra, so I thought this was a very kind greeting from Chop, but... He loves him. They have a, you know... I will say this. Some brotherly bickering. I thought the Chopper stuff was great. Yeah. I thought Mary Liz with Winstead brought a lot to that face that Hera makes there. I needed... I needed a rushing to each other. I needed a hug. I need more than just this casual, hi, Hera, I'm home, or...

Sabine, like, where you been, Sabine? Or, hey, Ahsoka. Like, I just need more. Freaking Poe Dameron running off the spaceship to tickle BB-8. See BB zooming to him. Incredible. I'm sorry. I'm glad it hit you. I love it. To be clear, I would have loved a hug. It's not like I wouldn't have cherished it, but I thought that they conveyed...

In their looks and in specifically the way that Ezra said, hi, Hera, just like broke my heart. I don't know. It was just... I love that for you. It was lovely. I love that for you. I just love it. Do you think the next moment was not a hug, but was Ezra asking if anyone had an update on Zeb? Sabine mentioned that he's training her crew. It's his...

Is that happening nearby? Where's Calus? Is he like, the people want to know? I hope so. God. No Calus. Not a word about Calus. Devastating. Not a whisper. Devastating. Ahsoka, Sabine, Hu Yang, the howlers, thank the fucking gods, make their way back to the cheering darling Nodi, greeting them with applause. We should say, we didn't mention this, but right before Sabine does that dumb shit with the ship,

You know, Ezra and Ahsoka hopped down to, like, force hold the ship above. It was looking to crush our crab pack. So, you know, yeah, these are heroes. I mean, they brought... They almost had some crab dip. They brought... Is that... Do you think that's what Ezra called it? It's delicious. Maybe. Oh, man. Like a soft pretzel, or I hope in Ezra's case, like a hard pretzel, and you dip it in.

Oh, yeah. Some crab dips. Fucking delicious. I don't want to. I want the noti to be safe. I have. As a child. Not that I would never eat any noti dip, but I have, in fact, had crab dip and it is delicious and delicious. Sensational. I had a West Coast lobster roll the other day and I thought of you. It wasn't very good, but that's what I get for having a West Coast lobster roll. You know? Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. You got to choose your spots. Yeah. If you're going to if you're going to attempt it out here.

To quote my absolutely fabulous and wonderful stepmother, quoting her absolutely fabulous and wonderful mother, not here, Debbie, when she tried to order a food item in the wrong state. We say that all the time in our family. Not here, Debbie. If you told my dad that you had ordered a lobster roll out west, he would say, not here, Debbie. Not here, Debbie.

All right. What is the crab pack doing? What's going on with our crab pack of Ahsoka and Sabine? And thank God, Hu Yang and the Howlers. I'm so glad Hu Yang is okay at the end of this season. Yeah, me too. My God. So glad the Howlers are okay. Just so glad the Nody are okay. Hot David Tennant fall continues apace. I know. It really does. He's just like literally the fourth lead in the show. Incredible turn of events that we had quite literally no reason to anticipate. We move to nighttime.

The talking and the healing continues. Let's have one more clip, Steve. It's that I'm asking you to let go line from Rebels, from Ahsoka to Ezra that we talk about all the time. This is the...

Live or die, what is that really about? Living means letting go, moving on, moving on together. Amazing to hear the little notey chirps in that clip, just delightful. Sabine looks back, Joe, and she feels something. She can't quite see it. Just shadows in the starlight, she says. But Ahsoka looks, she gazes, and she lingers, and she nods. And the camera pans back, and we see...

the force ghost of Anakin Skywalker smiling at his battle on. And I was once again, I'm fucking mess here. The Kevin Kiner score. Oh, Hayden, the promise of more Hayden and in season two, Oh, Hayden, Hayden, just like looking over the crab pack.

Ahsoka communing with Force Ghost Anakin in season two? Who says no? Who says no? And I want to say that like when it you know when it comes to like the volume versus matte paintings versus whatever like the volume usually doesn't stack up but that the the

Crazy shafts of light that were in the far distance on Peridia here. I'd put that on the side of a van in the 70s. I thought that looked like some awesome D&D type shit. I loved it. You love a glistening bone belt. You love an ocean vista and you hate a crevice. Glistening bone belt. I have some questions. Should we call Ben? Let's do it. Ben!

He's here. Our mortis god. The one. Our favorite convoy mori. Ben, we've been teasing it throughout the pod. These statues, these birds. We got the mortis gods. We've been speculating since the preseason as we looked forward to what we might get in this season.

Is that the daughter's face in the trailer? Ooh, three faces in episode one, down in the ruins. Mortis gods have been on our mind. We talked about it on our watch list primer. We talked about them in our top moments. Here it is. We saw the father. We saw the son. We saw the ruined husk of the daughter. We saw Mirai. Let's talk about the mortis gods. Let's talk about the one, the ones. And,

After we get some lore, let's talk about what we think it might mean that this is where Balan is heading. Yeah, it is truly astounding that suddenly the focus of Star Wars is on these mystical beings from a three-episode arc of the Clone Wars from more than 12 years ago. One of the strangest little side trips in Star Wars is suddenly center stage again. And it feels like we've

Talked about them so much. I was like, did we not already do a lore segment on the Mordiscots? But no, I don't think we did. It's not a dedicated one. They just they keep coming up in their own way.

Where do you want to begin? Which part of this is most exciting to you? I know for Joanna, it's the Lord of the Rings. Right. Come on! I'm being very restrained. No, they're asking for it here. If you didn't do the Lord of the Rings references this time. Yeah. So I guess we could start with the origins of this little arc on the Clone Wars. Yeah.

And this is always tough to explain. When I try to explain the Mortis gods to kind of casual Star Wars fans, I'm almost apologetic. I'm like, okay, so there was this show called The Clone Wars. And

There were these episodes and Anakin and Obi-Wan and Ahsoka, they met these mystical beings who seemed to embody or represent the Force. And then they were never really seen again, but they're all important at the same time. And they wiped their memory of ever having seen them. It gets kind of convoluted. And it's all, I think, intentionally somewhat...

and you're supposed to reach your own interpretation of what it means and what they are. Perhaps that will be clarified in future Star Wars. But basically, this was a George Lucas initiative. This was his idea. He pitched this. And when he pitched things, people said, sure, you're George Lucas. You run Star Wars. If you want to put three Force gods into the Clone Wars, sure, we will do that. So essentially,

Essentially, it's just an arc in the middle of the regular run of the show, which was just Clone Wars is wild. I mean, you have an episode where people confuse Jar Jar for a Jedi, and then suddenly you have an episode where you meet these immortal force gods. But there's a distress call. Incredible content. Yeah, which I love, by the way. But you really never knew what you were going to get with Clone Wars from week to week.

So there's a distress call, an ancient Jedi distress call is sent. Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Ahsoka go to check it out, and they are sort of teleported into this spirit realm, this planet called Mortis, which may or may not be a physical planet. It's sort of this metaphysical realm.

And they sort of enter a high fantasy take on Star Wars. This is one of the least Star Wars-y things in Star Wars, I think, which is why it's both amazing and exciting that this is suddenly so prominent. It's also, I guess it's a little Star Trek-y too. It's like Q suddenly just taking Picard into some realm where they have some lesson about humanity. So...

I understood that reference. I know you did. So there's a father and a son and a daughter, sort of a holy or unholy trinity of these ancient immortal force beings called the Ones.

And it's not entirely clear what their relationship to the force is, but they seem to represent it. They seem to be stewards of the force. The father keeps things in balance and his kids constantly fight. Essentially, it's a very dysfunctional forced family. And the daughter is aligned with or embodies or represents the light side of the force. And the son is the dark side.

It's not totally clear, like, why they keep the son around because he's just evil and wanting to kill everyone all the time. It's like, we got to keep it in balance. What would be so bad about just having the daughter and just having everything be nice and happy? That's never entirely clear. Like, do we need evil to appreciate good? Maybe that's the lesson here. But...

They're constantly warring. And the father, his job is basically just to tell them to take timeouts and try to maintain this balance so that neither one gets the upper hand. Because supposedly, whoever is in power, whoever is sort of more prominent, that affects the force in the entire galaxy. Or at least that is one suggestion here. Yeah.

And a lot happens in this three-episode arc, right? So Ahsoka dies and gets resurrected. Anakin finds out that he's going to become Darth Vader and then gets neuralized, essentially, so that he forgets that he is going to become Darth Vader, right? Yep. For some reason, after he finds out that he's going to become Darth Vader, his solution is like, well, I better turn to the dark side immediately, then let's just get this show on the road. Yeah.

And there are like gargoyles and griffins. It's just kind of this... Don't forget magical blades. Magical blades, yeah, which are sort of greenish, in fact. And...

It's just all tossed into this soup. Right. And so the father has sensed that Anakin is the chosen one and he's looking to stop doing this job that he's been doing for eons or he senses that his time is drawing near. So he's looking for a replacement father and he thinks that Anakin as the chosen one can take over this role of keeping his kids in line.

So he's trying to test whether Anakin is the chosen one. And then when he determines that he is, he wants to install him as his replacement. But all sorts of things go wrong, right? There's a source of dark side power that Anakin taps into and he turns to the dark side. And then Obi-Wan and Ahsoka are trying to ally with the father and the daughter against the son who is suddenly gaining too much power and things are threatening to get out of whack.

So it's kind of a morality play, I guess. The thing about it is all of the Mortis gods end up dead. The daughter ends up being transferred into Ahsoka via Anakin. So Ahsoka dies and the daughter is also dying. And her last act is to transfer her life force, her essence into Ahsoka to revive her.

And Morai, the convor, the bird, the spirit animal, was originally the daughter's spirit animal or pet or companion. And so now Morai follows Ahsoka around everywhere because there is still some part of the daughter in her. Right. So on the one hand, Morai.

When you bring something into the canon, it's almost like, well, wait, what about that force family? And this was going to be a disaster if anything happened to them. And suddenly they're all dead, but nothing seems to have come of that really. Right. So it's like when you introduce this, it's almost like you want to sweep it under the rug and forget that it ever happened because it should probably be the most important thing ever. Right.

Or I don't know, it seems like we're now kind of codifying it and returning to it. And obviously, Filoni has been intrigued by this idea. And the Mortis gods appear again in Rebels, not in person or in spirit, but just as part of the portal to the world between worlds, which we did a recent lore segment about. So you essentially...

enter the world between worlds on Lothal through this mural of the Mortis family, right? So it is unclear, I think, about whether this is all real and actually happening. It's almost like the conversation we had about the world between worlds in Ahsoka and whether that's a vision or not.

Yeah.

He also said many things in this arc of stories are a metaphor. Everything is symbolic of everything that takes place in all six Star Wars films. So there is a line of thinking that this didn't really happen, that this is Anakin kind of confronting the light in him, the dark and the good and wrestling with that. And this is all just a representation of things that he's going to go through or has already gone through.

Or it could actually be real. And the fact that Mirai does appear in the physical world, seemingly, unless, you know, and the fact that now we have these statues seems to suggest that this was not all just a figment of the imagination. A fever dream. Yeah. Right.

Yeah, because when that arc is over, you know, they go to this planet where the distress call was and they just sort of wink out of existence briefly. And then when it's all done, they wake up and it's like, oh, is this just a dream, right? And the clones say, where were you? You know, you were just gone for a second. And they say, that felt like a really long time to us. So there's some question about how real it all is. And I like...

well, I like this idea that Mortis, the place that they go is like somewhat a spirit realm because it always sort of bothered me this idea that like,

is Paridia or this other galaxy that they're going towards something to do with the Mortis gods? And I'm like, but haven't we already been to where the Mortis gods are and isn't that Mortis? But if Mortis is more of like a spiritual realm or a place inside your own head or inside your own heart or whatever, and this is the actual physical, an actual physical origin of something, that works for me. Do you know what I mean? I was just sort of like, didn't we already do this? And don't we know when this happens? Yeah.

Yeah, I just went back and rewatched the episodes to get them straight in my head. And there are a couple of quotes. Obi-Wan says any conflict here could have dramatic repercussions for the universe at large. And there's sort of a suggestion that the fact that the sun is gaining power is possibly why the Sith are ascendant, perhaps why the Jedi can't detect and

And unmask Sidious, maybe that is all just kind of flowing from the dysfunctional family of Mortis. And he also says at one point, the planet is the force. So it's really tough to say. It could either mean everything or it could kind of mean nothing. So it's complicated, essentially. And maybe we will get some clarification or maybe not. Maybe it will remain mystical.

And there was another thing that Filoni said in the featurette. He said, the writers and I feel very strongly when we're bringing these types of episodes to screen, George has to be more involved than normal because we have to get this stuff right out of everything we do. We have to get this stuff right because this is the force. This is the whole ballgame.

And so I wonder whether even though George isn't involved in an official capacity anymore, obviously Filoni is his protege. And because this is something that originally came from the mind of George Lucas and Filoni, I think, is careful about honoring his wishes and how he views Star Wars, especially with such fundamental things as the Force.

I wonder if he's been chatting this over with the Flandered one at some point. Hey, what do you think about this Balan storyline? So those are the broad strokes. I should also note, I guess, that Sam Witwer plays the son in his first Star Wars TV role. Of course, he'd been in video games prior to that. So that was another momentous aspect of this. But yeah, it's really just in the words of Freddie Mercury. Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy? Yeah.

still to be decided. I really like, you know, we have no idea what this might hold for the future, but I love the, so like, because Morai, this convoy, this sort of embodiment of the daughter shows up here. I like this. And because we're missing the daughter in the statuary here, but Ahsoka is there and Ahsoka is like, we're right where we're supposed to be.

I'm so intrigued by what role she might play in whatever, you know, if we need someone to stand in as the daughter in order to seal something back or something like that. I am intrigued by that as a future for Ahsoka. Like she was always headed towards this ever since the daughter was resurrected inside of her. She was always headed towards this as like,

Right. Yeah. Yeah. And it's reminiscent of Balin's speech in episode six, where he's talking about, as you get older, look at history, you realize it's all inevitable to follow the Jedi rise of the Empire repeats again and again and again. What I seek is the beginning. So I may finally bring this cycle to an end.

And that is sort of reminiscent of things that the father says in this arc, the idea that it's just been kind of this eternal light side, dark side battle. One side gets the upper hand at one time, another gets it at another time, and that that's maybe mirrored in the galaxy at large or the galaxies.

And so if Balin is aware of these mortis gods, then he thinks this is kind of the key to it all, this cycle. Maybe if I can go back, I don't know, the world between worlds, go back and prevent this family from forming in the first place. It's hard to say because, again, the gods die at the end, and it's hard to say what the ramifications of that are, whether that

that plays into any subsequent events or actually doesn't. But that would suggest, yeah. I think there's the statues, which of course is, that's the gods and why we're talking about them, but the thing that he is gazing out at. Yes. Yeah.

That seems like the destination. And so I think there's this interesting question of like, of the, everything that you guys have both said about the, the Mortis gods and the ones and what's the origin, what was the destination, what's real, what's not, but also like the question maybe of if this is where they first were, like what they harnessed here, what they found here and what they harnessed potentially. And like the other, the other comp Ben, when you were, when you were saying like citing some comps between Balin and the father, um,

I think there's also the other thing that popped into my mind there is when he was saying to Shin in the perhaps they flee a power greater than their own exchange about the great mothers. Something calls to me. Can't you hear it? Something stirs here. Can't you see it? Can you see it?

From the Mortis arc, like, they were lured there. Yeah. Anakin was lured there by the father, right? All is lost. The balance has been broken. I thought by bringing you here, I would, but I have destroyed everything. So, again, is there some other power that came...

and filled the vacuum behind them that's doing the luring now? Is the source of the power of the thing luring them, not necessarily the ones themselves? I don't know, but there does seem to be some sort of parallel there and something drawing you to it. For what end, we don't yet know. Yeah, and when we speculated about this earlier in the season, we also mentioned the character, the entity of Aboloth, right? And I think...

I think at the time we thought it was unlikely that that would turn out to be a solution. But then again, I would have said it would be unlikely that the Mortis gods would come back in a big way at some point, too. So you just never know. But just to be complete here, Aboloth, who, again, I mean, also some similarities to that. Something is calling me something sinister. Right. This was Aboloth.

connected to the Mortis gods, but not currently canon. So an antagonist of the Fate of the Jedi series of books that was published just before Disney bought the franchise from George and so has been decanonized. But of course, we know that Filoni loves to pull things back into canon. And Abeloth was the mother of

So this was a mortal person who was kind of a companion assistant to the father. And because she was around these immortal deities all the time, wanted to also become immortal. And so did some forbidden stuff to become immortal. And that all went wrong. And she became corrupted and became this kind of Lovecraftian sort of entity and then had to be hunted down. Right. But anyway,

That, I mean, I don't know, it seems like a lot to bring that in. When we talked about this last time, I think that's what we said, that like there were whatever there were just a couple episodes left in the season at that point. And we were sort of skeptical that they could actually introduce this in that time. And in that sense, I guess we were right. Right. So as.

as unfulfilling as it is not to get all the answers at the end of a season, I am somewhat relieved that they didn't attempt to cram all of this lore into the very end of the season. Yeah, I think we're all on the same page that the Balin and the lore aspects of this are separate. It feels deeply sad to have gotten no time with Balin at the end of the season, especially knowing that we will not get to see Ray Stevenson again.

as the character again, and it was such a remarkable performance. We spent such intriguing, gripping, tantalizing time with Balin and Shin early in the season, so to not have them in a prominent way at the end, that was a letdown. I agree on the mythology. The mythology aspect, it actually felt right to just give us a taste of what might be coming and not try to do too much here, leave that as the promise of something in the future. There's not much...

value in speculating about this, I guess. But I am curious, do you both think that something was re-edited at the end here following Ray Stevenson's death to take more of the Balin storyline out at the end and maybe save it for however long we shape the character in the future or no? My only theory on that, and I could be way off, I have no evidence for this, but my only theory is like perhaps, I hope that Shin was always meant to be left behind, but perhaps Shin was left behind because

so that she could fulfill the Balin role. You know what I mean? Like, if they choose not to recast or do something with that character, do you know? That was my only thought. But other than that, I don't know. To me, it just felt like a big tease towards a big, cool thing that they had planned for the future. A theory that I have, I'm trying to think of an example of this trope. Maybe, Ben, you can help me with this. Like, I can't think of, I know it's on the tip of my brain. I can't think of it. But like,

The trope where a human character, a part of the Fellowship, has to then become the threshold guardian, stays behind to take over the role of some other immortal mythical figure. Do you know what I mean? Not quite like Indiana Jones becomes the Grail Knight because he doesn't. That's what I was just thinking.

And like, so like Ahsoka having to stay to become the daughter to hold, to protect something, to hold something back. But like either way, whether or not they do something like that, the light on the mountain was giving me Grail Night or like, you know, the light cave on Lost vibes where we need someone here protecting this, keeping it lit, whatever it is. You know what I mean? And maybe, yeah. Yeah.

Ahsoka is going to be the new Jacob of this island. And so do we think that's where this is heading? Because Balin, of course, said one must destroy in order to create. He has talked about that beginning and ending that cycle. So he is seeking to end something, to stop something, to prevent something. And do we think that she will try to preserve it and protect it, even though that cycle has caused a lot of

and pain for her personally? Do we see them as being opposed in that particular aspect of the next season? Yeah, if he thinks it needs to be destroyed in order to reshape the Force and she has to protect it, whatever.

Whatever it is. Yeah. If she's still sort of the steward of the light side, even though she's not fully Jedi aligned anymore, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. If he thinks like we have to do away with the force entirely in order to stop this cycle and maybe she thinks, no, we can just bring it into better balance in some way or just to remove the force maybe would be worse than the curse of having these things.

sides go at each other over and over again because of whatever else would be lost at that time. But yeah, it's tough. I was wondering just...

kind of how someone who is not as immersed in the lore as we are or who is not listening to House of R for shame would have interpreted this finale because I was looking at just various things that were written about this after the finale and I was looking at some comments and people were just like, oh, I just, I thought that was a bird, you know? It's just like, yeah, I just thought those were statues, you know? I mean, I guess you can look it up if you're curious, but I'm sure that a significant percentage

percentage of people who were watching that, you know, if hopefully there are still people watching Ahsoka who were not all in on Clone Wars and Rebels, etc., may not have picked up on those things. And I wonder whether that would have caused the finale to seem even less fulfilling and satisfying than it may have seemed to us. Because for us, like the tease of these concepts was enough because we got some hint of where this was headed.

But if you weren't aware of this three episode arc in the Clone Wars from 12 plus years ago, then you may have been even more like, where did those characters go? And what am I supposed to take from this? But I mean, I do think no matter what, I mean, I don't know why I'm being defensive when they don't need me to defend them. But like,

I think it is at least very cool and visually striking of him standing on the fist and all the Lord of the Rings-y stuff that it evokes. I think that's... But yeah, for those who have complained about the show to say... For the specific complaint of, I feel left out of the loop, I feel like I'm missing something that you have to have watched Clone Wars in order to understand...

It's hard to argue with this moment, which has a lot of significance for us

and no significance for them, you know? I think that's like the, it can be the opportunity inside of what Ben, you're identifying as maybe the kind of like shock of, wow, this is like a thing they're going to do, huh? It is so, relatively speaking, while the implications of the canon are vast, it's contained. It's like a limited, finite amount of story that we've gotten so far. So there's an opportunity to do something that, are some people missing a little bit of that backstory yet?

Yes, but like a lot of this will be new for everybody very soon. I'm excited. I mean, I love the Mortis Ark on Clone Wars. It was a thrill to see them in the mural at the end of Rebels. My one concern, like Ben, I think you're citing a risk that hadn't really been top of mind for me in terms of just maybe how like weird and truly, truly, truly like high fantasy this could be. That part's exciting to me. I think the risk is apparent, right? Which is,

It's another potential version of, like, you go from soft sci-fi to hard sci-fi with midichlorians because you think you need to define the force. And even though this is not hard sci-fi, it's high fantasy, like, that intention to try to define the force has backfired considerably before. So it's always a risk. Do you want to leave the force as this, you know, thing that you...

feel and we get great exchanges and quotes and conversations and we're constantly redefining it, including in the season of TV, but we don't have actual strict definitional like origin parameters around it? Or do you want to try to do more of that in a way that feels like vibrant and exciting and like there are new possibilities? I am personally excited by it, but I will concede that it's not a risk-free pursuit. It's a big swing for sure. Yeah, I don't think it's

out of line with George Lucas' sort of, you know, myth-making and just like storytelling style and trying to have sort of a profound philosophical...

layer aspects to the force. But I think it then becomes, you know, if you're bringing in this family and it's like, wait, did the force depend on this guy and his kids? Oh, is that what this is saying? Or is that more symbolic or representative? And so if paridia is sort of the wellspring of the force in some sense, or if this is where force use originated or where people first learned to harness the power of the force, then

Is this a Mortis gods? Is this almost like, you know, how did humans learn to make fire? Maybe this is where the Mortis gods. Yeah. Maybe the Mortis gods passed on on force wielding to the original Nightsisters or their ancestors here. But is this the James Mangold film? Right. Exactly. Yeah. Is that where this is set? I wonder how Mangold felt about this. I don't know. I have questions. Well, here's the question for you.

So do we want how do you feel about the question of like, do we want to recast Balan's goal or do we want to do something else? What do you guys think?

I'm pro-recasting, assuming that there's still a significant part for this character to play here, which certainly seems to be the case. It's tough, obviously, just because Ray Stevenson was so riveting and mesmerizing as this character that it would just be a tough act to follow for anyone. But your options are essentially, I mean, you know, assuming that we don't get into weird Disney moments

de-aging CGI resurrection territory, which I doubt would happen. But aside from that, you know, either you do just write him out and you say, and Balan died while he was trying to do this thing. Return to his own planet. Yeah, right. And now Shin will take over for him or something. Or you can just recast, like Disney obviously has been hesitant to do that and has gone to these great technological lengths to

to give us younger Leia or younger Luke, right? And those characters, I get it. You know, I don't necessarily agree, but I get it. Of course, they're iconic and they're so associated with their original actors. Baelin Skull is great, is maybe my favorite part of the series, and Ray Stevenson was amazing. But I don't think there's enough of a legacy to this character to say that it could only ever be played by one person. Mal, what do you think?

Yeah, I think that the performance was sensational and it's like deeply sad to confront the fact that we won't get to see Ray Stevenson as Balan again. But I think the character sparked something in our collective imagination of Star Wars fans that is like precious. And I think honestly, like they have to tend to and cultivate like it's just outside of Ahsoka.

If we think about the number of Star Wars stories, movies, films, movies and films are the same thing. Schemes and plots, movies and films. If we think about the number of stories where when they fail or they fall short, part of what we go back to is why do we have to do thing X all the time? Why is it always about the Skywalkers? Why is it always about Palpatine? Why is it always X, Y, or Z?

Balin and Shin, but Balin most of all, felt fresh and imaginative. Yes. And it sparked something inside of us that I think would be desperately sad to not continue. We're so invested in learning more about the character. Some of our greatest laments about the season are that we didn't get to learn...

about a given aspect of his backstory or motivation or what changed when he stood on Paridia and realized that the stories and the fairy tales and the folklore were real. Like, there's so much here. And the performance was sensational. It is just, like, truly memorable and something we will cherish and revisit for the rest of our lives as Star Wars fans. But I think it would be...

It's a really hard role to step into, but I think it would be really sad if we didn't get any more Balin moving forward. What about you, Jill? I have a ghoulish idea. I have an idea. I don't know if it's ghoulish to suggest an actor at this point, but like...

I just got into my head the idea of, because I think because of his knightly demeanor of Ian Glenn in the role, you lose the size. He's not as big and imposing as Ray Stevenson is. But in terms of that sort of inherent chivalric, but fallen on harder times persona, yeah.

That's Ian Glenn, is it not? With a beard. Can you see the vision? So I think Ray Stevenson is actually pretty irreplaceable, but I think there are a few performers who could get kind of close. I've also seen people suggest Russell Crowe, which would be an interesting, in honor of this character who we are so...

excited by and invested in. Like, we can only possibly replace Ray Stevenson with a literal Oscar winner. Like, that's, you know, that's what we could do. And like, you know, Rusty can bring that sort of like big physical imposing-ness if he decides he wants to. So, I don't know. There's some options. I don't think there are zero options for this, but I think...

I think it should be a recast. And I don't even think they should, like, I think it should be a Dario-esque, let's not even really talk about it recast. Right. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Of course, you've got all sorts of mystical force stuff going on. So if you wanted to come up with some excuse for why the new actor looks different, you probably could. It wouldn't be weirder than anything else that's going on with the Mortis gods. But I agree. Yeah.

I think we would all understand and accept it. And I saw some of those same names suggested. A lot of people seem to be suggesting Liev Schreiber, maybe partly because he is also large and there's maybe a facial resemblance at least. I've seen some Sean Bean suggestions too, right? And I don't think he's big enough. I mean, there's all sorts of movie and TV magic you can do, of course, but I don't know. I think he has the right manner and demeanor

But I thought of Ian Glenn because I figured that would be an easy sell on this podcast. Yeah. I thought of Ben Daniels, who was amazing in the latest Foundation season. Love Ben Daniels. Yeah. And I thought of Holt McCallany from Mindhunter. He's American. Ooh.

I don't know. Oh, wow. Okay, first of all, Ben Daniels, with love and respect, we cannot use Ben Daniels because he has already Captain Handsome mustache in Star Wars. And I can't bring him back. But that is really good because...

That Mindhunter actor was in, is it called Lights Out? That show that he was on? He was in like a boxing show. Oh my God. He's so good in that show. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. That's a great one. Yeah. That's a great one. I think maybe my number one though, unless he's just been in so many genre properties at this point that one more would be one too many, but I could see Graham McTavish.

inheriting this part because he has I think the he has an accent he has yes he can be kind of heroic but also kind of anti-hero or sort of a villain opponent but kind of like he has a point that kind of character but I've just enjoyed him so much in everything like Outlander he's great in Outlander yeah The Witcher Outlander

Aquaman, The Hobbit, Colony, Castlevania, lots of video games. Now that you stack it up, I haven't thought about it yet. He's got to cross off Star Wars, I guess, on the list. But he's also big, right? And I think being big is crucial to this part because just that presence that

Stevenson had just looming over Shin or Ahsoka. When he was like fighting Ahsoka and sort of like bearing down on her with the broadsword. Yeah. Yeah. Well, point being, the big point is Ray Stevenson, absolute icon, incredible, incredible performance. It will be, those are all great options.

it will be tremendously difficult for literally anyone to capture what he captured here. Yeah. And it'll be difficult for them to translate the Mortis gods into live action and make that comprehensible and compelling to people. But I'm intrigued. And I wonder, I hope that this is something that makes the tent

Bigger, not smaller, because I think there's one interpretation of this that's just this is for the diehards. This is for people who do a lore segment on an hour-long podcast about Star Wars every week, right? And that only we could possibly care about this kind of thing and that it's a turnoff to everyone else or that it requires homework, that you have to watch all this stuff or listen to a podcast or watch an explainer, right? But I think another interpretation could be that this is...

different for Star Wars. This is Star Wars branching out. Maybe it's reaching out to people who are more into the fantasy, mystical elements of things. And I'm always interested in a franchise that's 45 plus years old, trying new things and going in new directions and trying to be different

things for people that could appeal to different audiences potentially or it could all backfire tremendously but it should be an interesting experiment at the very least well it's a reason why I'm so excited sometimes the blade of Talzin slices you in your own gut you know it was still mystical while you had it so it's a reason why I'm really excited for Acolyte is like one of the top things on my radar for Star Wars because it does feel like so different so we'll see

Thank you, Ben. This is wonderful. Benjamin, thank you. Another season in the books, man. Yeah, we did it. I don't know if Ahsoka did it, but we did it. We sure did. Okay. From mortis gods to Easter eggs. Joanna, what was your favorite Easter egg from this episode? The Argonaut. I mean, how is it not the Argonaut? Of course. Yeah. Gotta be. Yeah. Has to be. Yeah.

Okay, we have the same one. Oh, okay. I mean, also, shout out Ezra stealing Stormtrooper armor. One of my favorite things of all time. And of course, the frickin' Narnia reference. Just very validating personally. Twin cores, all of it. Yeah, all of it. We had a good time. Wig watch? No wig watch this week. If this episode had Netflix subtitles... You have one, Joanna.

The moldering mandible of a death trooper snaps at purple-haired force user straining towards perfectly reasonable use of the force. That's great. We chose the same moment. I love when that happens. What's yours?

Mine is flesh distends wetly dot, dot, dot from Sean jobs, zombified trooper who waited 12 years for rescue in canonical graveyard only to be brained by first time force wielder. Oh boy. And there's only one way we can conclude the finale pod, the Ahsoka season pod, our friendship. I hope not. I hope that lives beyond this pod. Good God. How many days since the,

See, that's what I like about you, Mando. That big smile of yours lets you get away with anything. You said that clock! Joanna. Well... We're adding six, not seven this time because we're recording on Thursday, not Friday. So it could have been even worse. Think of it that way. It's only Thursday. Lemon. It has been 603 days since I have seen Cobb Van. Brutal. No one has thought to get me

A webcam for my personal object of affection. Mallory, how are you feeling? Well, we have a name for Sabine's loathcat sweet bubba, Merly Delightful. I love this name. You coined the term Mer-per. Yeah. In the Ring of Rose group chat, which is just sublime. Sublime. Sublime.

44 days since we've seen Murr on the show, but it's only been two days since we got Murrlycam from the Star Wars social. And I suspect near a minute since you last checked in on it. So, you know. This was a gift. Thank you. Truly. Thank you to Star Wars. Wow. Yeah. Thank you to Star Wars social. You're a true gemstone. Incredible stuff. Anything else, Jo?

Final thoughts? I'm just burdened with glorious purpose for our next show. I know. I'm so excited. Me too. I can't believe we get to cover Loki together, a show that we both have false memories of having previously covered together.

And now we get to. All right, friends, we did it. We have a method, not a system or anything resembling a process, but still another season of Deep Dives is under our belts. That is a wrap on Ahsoka season one. We had a blast. Thank you for traveling to this new galaxy with us. Thank you for listening all season.

And thank you, of course, to our favorite Force wielders, Steve Allman, for producing this episode. Arjuna Ramgopal for his additional production work on this episode and Jomi Adeneron for his work on the social for this episode. Remember, head over to the Ringiverse right now. Midnight Boys Instant Reaction on episode one of Loki season two. It's up. Jessica's breakdown of the Easter eggs in the Loki premiere coming on Saturday. Pop back over to House of R Monday morning-ish.

ish ask Loki season two premiere deep dive from us until then maybe this is where a Ronin such as you belongs