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This is a long crime network presentation.

This podcast expires themes of child abuse and trauma. Please listen with care a note from our executive producer. The following was intended to be our final episode of the rise and fall of ruby Frankie.

However, in the early morning hours of friday, march twenty second, twenty twenty four, as we were putting the final touches on this episode, the washington colney atterley office in utah released police reports, audit amp footage, investigated photos and interviews, as well as portions of ruby, Frankie and jodie hildeBrant recorded phone calls made from the washington county correctional facility. The long crime team is carefully reviewing all the materials and will be back with a deep dive bonus episode on April eighth. We thank you for your patience. Now here's episode seven.

SHE gonna a say and do whatever he can to try to make a Better for her. Her acting remorseful .

doesn't help anybody but her. period. And I will never let you to. Dark is snowing. Ly, I was so as oriented, and I believe dark was light, and rg was from. In this case.

you've terrorized children, and the results have been tragic. What happened to these children? And your philosophy in dealing with them, Frankly, seems detached from reality, or any objective standard of decency, or or even common sense. And the court finds that IT is appropriate at that you serve a prison.

We live in a society where people talk about abuse more, but they don't really understand IT. If our society really understood abuse, after SHE started sharing these videos, somebody would have gone to her home and said, you must stop and there would have been an intervention .

IT would never have gotten to this point.

Ipa barons and this is the rising fall of ruby Frankie presented by law crime.

It's a rainy february morning in the town of saint George, utah, outside the fifth district judicial courthouse, large brick building with four White talk columns at the entry way. Reporters from media outlets, both local and national, are eagerly waiting to roll on the immediate moments following ruby and jodi sentencing hearing and inside the courthouse, the pinning le moment in the twist ted path of a momma bloggers in the live coach turned to convicted child abuse ers was finally IT was agreed. Ruby would give her statement first, then jody, but just before ruby could get a word in washington county attorney eric Clark, representing the state of utah, stood before the court in a black suit papered with rain drops to read the state sentencing recommendations.

The state respectfully request the core sentence miss Frankie to consecutive prison terms for each of the four counts of aggravated child abuse. This sense was agreed to by misprints in her plea agreement and is also recommended that probation pro SHE committed horrible acts of child abuse from may to August in two thousand and twenty three, and sprinkling her business partner health, her two children age is nine and eleven, turned into twelve in a concentration camp like setting.

Eric Clark then details the agreement, acts of abuse both russia and the eve suffered and is closing remark on the violence is chilling.

had over the children not have the courage to run away and ask him abr to call the police, haven't only knows how much longer he told her survived in that situation.

After eric read the recommendations, IT was ruby is turned to speak when the clock struck, turning in mountain time rubie Frankie promptly approach judge john walton to give a statement standing beside her attorney lamari win ward.

I would like to make a statement without any intent to change my stipulated sentence. For the last four years, i've chosen to follow council and guidance that has made me into a dark solution. My distorted version of reality went largely unchanged, as I would. I yeller from anyone who chAllenged me.

Then SHE invokes jodie. I was LED .

to believe that this world was in the evil place built with cops to control hospitals that injure government agencies that brainwash church leaders who lie and last husbands who refuse to protect and children who need abused my choice to believe and be behave. This paranoia culminated into criminal activity, which I was sound forty to day, ready to take accountability.

Jodie hildeBrant was never my business partner, nor was I ever employed by her. I have never received wages from her or connections. Jodie was employed as my sons councilor in two thousand nine, and in twenty twenty I paid her to be my mentor.

IT is important to me to demonstrate my remorse, regret without blame. I take full count ability for my choices, and IT is my preference that I serve. Represent sentence.

K, U, T, V, S, bridge nee was in the courtroom. He describes s what came next in ruby statement.

SHE goes through in names, all these people by name, who SHE. Thanks for saving her children. In essence, SHE named members of the sanok are ivans public safety department, SHE named the prosecution, SHE named the judge.

and bryan remembers who else SHE stood before beyond the judge and legal teams.

As SHE read, Kevin, Frankie, who was seated in the front row opposite side of the courtroom, listening to this next to cabin was his son chat, his daughter Sherry. Next to Sherry was ruby, Frank key's brother bow griffith, who was also in attendance that day, not in attendance, where her parents, who submitted a letter to the court, as did bow, pointing the finger and essence ce of juty.

held the brand. The letters submitted that morning by ruby is parents chat, and Jennifer ask judge walton to show ruby mercy, claiming he'd been brainwashed by jody's teachings while her parents were not in attendance. Ruby statement directly addresses them too.

my mother and father, I have been ugly. Richard to you, you have offered me unconditional love and for that, but I have offered unconditional content.

Then SHE addressed Kevin, her soon to be x husband, who SHE had once x .

communicated Kevin, my husband, of more than twenty three years. You are the love of my life. So sorry to leave to you to finish what we both started together. The engine of our marriage age is a, and you wrap to rap my heart and or not, I will never be able to do.

And finally, SHE addresses the people. SHE hurt the most. Her sixth .

children, my babies, my old chicks, you were heard of me. I was the ma duck who was consistently wallowing you to safety. I can see now that over the past four years, I was in a deep undercurrent that let us to danger.

Learn you to darkness knowingly. That was so is oriented. And I believe dark was light, and right was right.

I would do anything in this world for you, and my willing is to sacrifice. All video was master for manipulated into something very, very ugly. And he took for me that was soft, safe and good.

You took for you, your mother. How terrifying this must have been for you. Crime for hurting your danger soul, you are you so precious? I'm sorry, regardless of europe ion .

about ruby, it's an emotional moment as SHE brings her statement to a close my choice .

to live in fear the world has created a great vulnerability and a black and spot for me, where I have broken hearts and I ve caused people to suffer, and I have been to get secret trust. Watching my community is to bond my watches, which a merk skin, Grace and love. There's all the more evidence to me of how long I been.

This world is full of really good people. And finally, i'm sorry for twisting god's were and distorting doctrine my greatest desires to stand in his court sunday spot and confident, can I know？ Standing before easter days and necessary that towards that.

And thank you to you do in your staff for facilitating ating my opportunity to take accountability and to answer for my charges. I am humbled and willing to serve a Price a prison sentence as long as IT takes to continue and labeling all of those information. I have believed and got swell and asked out, and for my family to heal, for the community to heal, and I understand is going to take time. I'm committed to continuing my learning until all of my toxic players are shed, and I am ready to read into as a contributing member of our beautiful society.

In total, ruby addressed the court, her family under community, for about eight minutes before judge wilton got down to brass tax.

The sentence will be that miss Frankie serve four counts for one to fifteen years senators based on her convictions for four accounts of aggravated child abuse. Again, they will serve consecutively be serve consecutively pursuit to the parties agreement and the applicable statute. Under the applicable statute, the court finds that the consecutive sentences are appropriate moments .

after ruby sentencing was set in stone, attention shifted to joe. He entered the courtroom in the same grain White inmates close. SHE was charged in a far cry from her professional, polished online persona. After some back and forth between judge welton and jody's attorney Douglas ary, the court finally hears from jody.

I sincerely love these children. I desire for them to heal physically and emotionally. One of the reasons I did not go to trial, so I do not want them to emotionally relieve the experience which would have been documented to them, I hope and care, is that they will heal and then forward beautiful lives. I am willing to submit to what the state fields would be an appropriate amount of time served to make distribution.

This is not the gravity of her statement is a stark contrast to ruby is a long gated reflection. Bryan recalls the experience of watching jodi's appearance before the court.

Jodie held the brand comes into the court room, a very estoit. Jody almost looked kind of lost, not really understanding what was really happening in that moment in terms of what have I done. But maybe I have done nothing wrong almost by the look at her face compared to ruby, who had sincere remorse.

I believe, and I think many people believe, and it's hard to say that given what IT happened, right? But at least from the appearance, there was a little showing over morse. Jodie hill, the brain statement was about thirty seconds.

I sincerely ly love these children, SHE said. And I don't think anyone really bought that. When the judge starts to speak to jody afterwards, keep in mind the judge said nothing to rubie Frankie or her attorney other than the formalities. But when jodie comes in, the judge goes on for about forty five seconds to a minute of, I think a lot of this is admittedly dly you're wrong doing.

Here's what judge walton had to say in direct response to joy that morning after her attorney attempted to bolster her statement you on.

I knew that whatever you might say to the author of the precise report would probably be sound hollow and self serving, and perhaps IT does today. But I know that my client in the statement, SHE, makes the court today. That statement is absolutely since here he's just held a brand recognize that it's her behavior that that caused the harm to the children that she's referred to in her statement.

SHE recognizes that he was along with miss Frankie, that that should make decisions with respect to the discipline of those children that were wrong, that caused harm to those children. SHE fully recognizes that and accepts responsibility for that. Alright, anything else, okay, is held a brand.

This this circumstance is tragic. It's largely, of course, of your making. By any measure, your conduct in this case was disastrous for these children.

Adults are to protect children. Adults who specialized training, in particular, are supposed to protect children. You didn't do that in this case. In this case, you've terrorize zed children. And the results have been tragic.

What happened to these children? And your philosophy and dealing with them, Frankly, seems detached from reality, or any objective standard of decency, or or even common sense. And the court finds that IT is appropriate at that. You serve a prison sense. The court finds under the statue you tak codes seventy six, dash three, dash four or one. Given the gravity and circumstances of the offences, the number of victims in the history and character and needs of the defendant that consecutive sentences are appropriate, the court imposes four, one to fifteen years senators to be again serve consecutively for each the four counts of aggravated child abuse.

Brian remembers the palpable tension felt in the courtroom.

In the court room, you can see Kevin nodding in agreement with what the judge had to say about. Jody held a brand. We had heard about jodie teachings in terms of the therapy, her license being suspended for, you know, unacceptable behavior in the past with adam steed, you name IT. Now IT all comes to fruition, an and sentencing, where I think everybody is kind of seemingly on the same page, except for maybe her attorney. That said, I have seen another side of joy hold the brand, and I don't really know if anyone bought that, including the judge who said, I genuinely agree that there are two sides to every case but in a way, he didn't seem so sure about jodie held a brands side of this. Hey.

brand members, have you heard you can listen to your favorite podcast at free good news, with amazon music, you have access to the largest catalogue of add free top poc included with your prime membership to start listening, download the amazon music for free or got a amazon 点 com flash add free podcast that's amazon 到 com slash add free podcast to catch up on the latest episodes without the ads by eleven A M february twenty th， twenty twenty four, both ruby, Frankie and jodie hilDebrand had both finally been formally sentenced.

The judge took the previous recommendations of one to fifteen years per charge to be served consecutively with a max of thirty years per statute. Here in the state of you talk, IT doesn't add up to the fifteen times four for sixty. That was some initial lack of clarification or understanding on really everybody's park at the maxim utah for what this could be is thirty years counting, of course, time served in all .

that other stuff? If after hearing the sentencing terms, you're thinking one to fifteen years sounds like a pretty broad time range, how much time will ruby and jodie really serve? This subject has been at the forefront of the conversations, and the answers aren't so cut and dry. First, it's important to note the two women may not serve the same amount of time by turney.

In the state that we've talked to members, even of the prosecution, we feel, i've said the same thing that they undoubtedly believe that there will be at least difference in the time served, and they look into a lot of things, is the remorse in all of this, that people actually taken steps to come to grips with what have happened and move on and try to admit that guilt in different ways. And I think one person has an another person hasn't. In this case.

at present, the general consensus across experts and onlookers alike is that one will serve more time than the other.

I imagine that that forgiveness for mom will come a little bit quicker than IT will for jody. But I mean, if if we're talking about overall expectation, I don't know how much time theyll do, but I do anticipate jody will do more time than ruby.

IT isn't out of the realm of possibility that jodie ruby may only serve four months total through to their lack of prior criminal history, but Jennifer yam, administrative director of the utah board of pardons and parole, says we won't know more until the two appear before the department later this summer.

They have scheduled right now for original hearing a tentative date in september of twenty twenty four. That would be the first time that the board would hear their case doesn't mean that they'll be released at that time, but they would consider he they might order certain types of treatment and programming. They could order a parole, but they could also and often do order a rehearing.

although ruby and jody's case feels larger than life in the eyes of the law, they are to be approached in the same regard as cases that don't make the spotlight.

The public is very interested in this case because IT feels agreeable and because it's gotten A A lot of press and that's important. But what's important to people who run agencies like me is that we treat these cases just like we treat all of the other cases that don't get the kind of notorious ety and fame and and media attention so that we can create as fair as system as possible.

So this policy process for the state of utah creates an important safety net for us. And so far as IT creates these guidelines in terms of numbers of months. And so that board members are making conscious decisions when they are exercising their direction to decide actually how long someone .

will stay .

because the terms of their prison time left onlookers unsurprised. Immediate reaction to the hearing focused on the glaring differences between the two women statements. Here's utah based assistant attn y. Jeremy dies. Take away from ruby statement.

I think ruby really, at the end of the day, I was as much remorse i've ever seen for anybody who's ever played guilty to something instead of sentencing.

Ruby strikes me as someone who legitimately realizes the places where he went wrong and that he does have some, some thinking issues that he has to go through and is doing everything that you can right now to to try to show her kids that he does recognize that that SHE is taking IT seriously and SHE does want to be a part of their lives going going forward. So I mean, I was that I was a good amount. Um i'm not going to say I was over the top. I mean, that was kind of unique to what you usually see. But ultimately, the end of the day, I think this is this is ruby kind of getting her head out of the clouds and really seeing the place that SHE found herself in, the situation that SHE put her children in.

And his reflection on jodie and comparison.

as far as jodie goes, I think he has a bit of a hill to climb, right? Because I think her thing is going to be, look, yes, I I may have given certain kinds of advice, but at the end of the day, ruby can do with her kids what he wants to do with the kids. She's her own woman.

And he may have taken some of what I said out of context to the extreme. I don't think you can really make that here, especially with the fact that he was living with ruby. And the two kids, while all of this stuff was happening, right? I don't understand why SHE doesn't just say, god, you know what? I played a part in this and and i'm so sorry I was wrong. And just going forward with that.

while the two clearly displayed polarizing degrees of remorse at the hearing, not everyone was buying rubes apologies. Like popular youtube, throp is kate morton, whose videos responding to the case have garnered hundreds of thousands of use.

I don't believe her, and I know that people can be like, oh, you're so hard and I mean, actually, I don't think anybody think that I don't trust her. Like we said, we have to go back to the person that we've known, right? What's happened now if she's pushed into a corner, her acting remorseful doesn't help anybody but her period.

And I mean, yes, maybe the children want to hear that. I know I have a lot of know patients over the years who really want a parent to apologize, but that wasn't really IT wasn't a true apology. You know apologies happen to the person in private like very specific to the issue.

This was like, blanket, i've I feel bad. And, you know, I know you feel back as you record. And so the whole thing is felt very icky to me.

Reactions like katy's flooded media coverage in the internet. Everyone wanted to get their word in on the case, but beyon the public. There were still some important outlying voices using this moment to make their statements to, namely Kevin Frankie, who had been keeping a low profile throughout the investigation and court proceedings. Remember, Kevin's involvement had already been probed. Here's brian again with what investigators determined from .

what we understand today and after sentencing is that either a, he had no idea or b, he had no idea and has no involvement. But I mean, it's hard to even say getting into his brain because we've never been able to really get that answers. Did he have a clue about any of this? Truthfully, Kevin ruby were separated for about A A year.

He didn't live in that house. It's hard to believe that he wouldn't done something as as a father, myself, as a father, how would you not step in? But i've tried to look at IT from this lens because it's almost like we were trying to find Kevin guilty immediately.

We meaning A A society here when in reality the da says we have nothing on Kevin. And I take that as their word because clearly they've talked to him. They've looked into him.

And if they have done their due diligence, as they've done with ruby and jodie, I mean, we asked them, point blank, is Kevin involved? Does he face anything? The answer was no. A week after the .

sentencing hearing, the senate business and labor committee in utah meet to propose a bill aiming to regulate life coaching requirements statewide. This was an opportunity for Kevin for to share his story of how a life coach allegedly ripped his family apart. On february twenty seven, twenty twenty four, state senator David hinkson, the sponsor of the bill SB251 red， a letter from Kevin Frankie before the committee.

My name is Kevin Frank, former husband of convicted child abuse ruby Frank. I apologize that I could not be present to address you in person because I am instead supporting one of my children who is recovering from bryan realized that the hands of my former wife, ruby, and the professional licensed therapist, jodie hilder brand what I am going to share with you today, I have learned from hard and painful experience.

Please listen carefully and consider what I have to say. My family destroyed and my children tortured because of a dangerous mental health professional who believed that he could act outside the ethical bounds of her profession by labelling herself as a live coach, numerous life coaches. Today, you're free to offer the same services provided in by licensed mental health professionals who Carry none of the respons ibi ie s or libi ie s associated with that profession, nor do they suffer any consequences for effectively impersonating a license to professional IT is.

So bring for me to think that jodie hilder brand weren't a licensed mental health professional. And if he had not physically tortured my children, I would have have little or no legal recourse today to seek justice against her for the emotional havoc that has read our family. My former wife, rubie, was among a group of individuals who paid jodie hilder brand ten thousand dollars to be trained as a certified mental health fitness trainer, a title that Carries no weight or meaning in the profession, mental health community fabricating meaning, sly certifications to impress the uninformed and convey and false levels of authority, expertise or profitable as unethical and should be illegal.

It's safe to presume that Kevin's plead of the senate could swayze their decision to create more strict and regulated guidelines for life coaches. But the committee has personed further action on the bill. They will not be making any changes until at least summer of twenty twenty five, but there's an even more pressing issue at the top of Kevin's mind and that's reuniting with his minor children who are still in state custody, a battle he's chosen to remain publicly quiet about and is taking place behind the scenes, according to his attorney and the castor.

We're trying. We're trying. I just don't think this is a time to declare war, and he and I have cancelled, and we believe that this is a time for healing.

A lot of bad things have happened to this family. And h he values his family and he values his children above all, and he's committed to doing whatever IT takes, even if it's in remaining silent. He is committed to doing that in order to make the future Better for his children.

And rand emphasizes that the timing of Kevin's long anticipated public statement requires a degree of finance.

When the dust is kind of settled, he he just doesn't want to jeopardize he doesn't want to say something because we've committed to the court, were not going to dish any other family. And Kevin gone above and beyond that he's not not dispersed, raged anyone.

He's reaching out to try to bring this family closer together and to kind of heel won't and so in terms of him speaking out, I I think he wants to accomplish the objective that he you know he wants to get his family back together. But um I think at some point he'll he'll wanted tell the whole story. I can promise that, but I know he's anxious to silence his critics.

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New members can try audible free for thirty days, visit audible dot com slash imagine or text imagine to five hundred five hundred that's audible dot com slash imagine or text imagine to five hundred five beyond the people directly involved in the care, or lack the of of the Frankie children, questions have also surfaced about the length child protective services went to protect them. Sherry bottle in licensed clinical social worker, trauma expert and author of thriving after trauma stories of living in healing, identifying issue she's observed in both her work. And in the case of the Frankly.

I think honestly, the problem is they don't spend enough time in the home to really see these type of situations are so sick and so pervasive that they're really good. And the Frankie e family might have been really good at this two, at covering up any type of evidence or suspicion of abuse. One of the worst things about coming from an abusive family is the amount of secrets that are kept, and all the masking and the covering up.

I don't look at IT as A A, C, P S issue. I look at IT as if you really want to know what's going on in someone's home, you would have to be there for more than an hour or two hours, and you would need to really know how to talk to anybody in the family involved, whether it's the perpetrators, the victims in that situation. So I think C, P, S.

Is indicated with calls. And I think that when you're in a system where the pathology is so rampant, the there, they're gonna able to hide IT. And I think that's probably what happened here. And the only thing that you have to remember is that kids never want to tell. They never want to get their parents in trouble.

So no matter how horrible IT is so hard for kids to run away or try to escape, because they know on some level that if somebody finds out their parents in the situation, his mom is gonna get in a lot of trouble. So i've talked to adults who have memories of being talked to by the police, by the division of youth and family services. And nye said to me, I didn't tell them the truth.

I didn't want to get my parents in troubled. So I think it's not just like all C, P, S, miss something. I think they would need to be there. They would need to probably be there for days. You could have somebody come into the Frankie family for twenty four hours that could look like a happy family because I feel like he knew how to keep things under wraps. There's another part of .

the jodie hold libra and rubie Frankie story that has raised questions since the two first cross pats, but became even more relevant once ruby stated herself that he had been systematically influenced by the woman he initially hired as a counsellor.

How was IT that a woman like ruby, whose public persona touted of resistance to advice and opinion, so caught up under jodie spell, we asked mental health providers what they believe may have contributed to jody's ability to influence ruby. Here's doctor kirk hana, host of the psychology in seattle youtube channel. Rich.

just typos is at this point, of course, but the first is that when you are a parent in the united states, you will probably go online and look for tips, especially if you're running into a problem. At the very least, you're gonna hear other parents talking about parenting techniques or frustrations, like you're in the kindergarten hang out area of the parents and you, you know, you just pick up on things.

And there has been a movement which has been very positive overall in terms of rejecting all traditional ways, apparently, like spare the rod, spoil the child kind of stuff. We've moved on from that point of view and looked at the research and understand that to raise a happy child, to even have a compliant child, is to give love, to be patient, to reflect emotion. IT doesn't mean that you just let a kid do IT over the holy one.

That's subsurface. You have ways, apparently, that. Actually shape behavior and create happiness. However.

doctor honda explains, not everyone is on board. With more contemporary approaches to parenting, many still maintain what some may understand is outdated or strict, is the right and effective way to raise children.

What you have is a lot of people that we might call them conservative or traditional, and they don't resonate with the cultural associations of liberal, progressive america. And there's suspicious of them in general, politically. But of course, you have politicians and the priests are the ministers, the leaders religiously, that will just constantly talk about the evil of the other side of the eye.

Not all of them, of course, but no, when you hear the spokesperson of god telling you that liberals are influencing you towards the devil, and you believe that person maybe left to your own devices, you would be a fine parent. Maybe you would be a little bit more stern than the typical parent, but things probably would have been fine in the seventies, you know. But you're going online, and all you're seeing is foreign points of view and people shaming for even considering any kind of discipline even if IT was not physical and you're suspicious and upset. And then if you're a clinic like jody held the brand in this community and you have enough business acute and intelligence, you maybe start out in your career talking with parents about, I don't listen to those people, I have another way, and you have parents that are just very thirsty for this. And for these individuals there they're eating IT up.

Looking through the lens of doctor hondas hypothesis, ruby may have found herself in the camp of rejecting a new culture of gentle parenting and looking toward the leader to legitimize her child rearing philosophy. And SHE found that in joy.

So when you're a jodie hilder brand and you stick your neck out, then you're going to be a lightning rod for a whole group of people that are legitimately feeling alienated, I would say. And then you start fAllen in love with your own B S. right? You start thinking, my god, look how i'm a genius. People are calling me a genius. They are, they're just crying as they enter my office, appreciative of how how helpful I am.

Isaia, a licensed professional councillor whose youtube channel therapy talk features videos s unpacking the Frankie hilder brand case, shared his theory as to how a parent could be conversed by an outsider to inflict abuse on their children.

thinking through how a parent might be induced to so harm her children. And one of the experiments bat psychologists conducted years and years ago, the mill grim experiments, came to mind where this was an experiment, testing what people would do under conditions where they were ordered to buy an authority figure. And this was to experiment with what was going on, a nazi germany.

How could so many people follow really inhumane orders to do atrocious things? And so there have been um followed questions about kind of the validity of this experiment just because of the nature of the experiment. It's not very replicable uh, just because of the ethical concerns. But they did find that most of the participants did follow orders to admission and electric shock to a third party, one order to do so by the person who was conducting the experiment. Now there wasn't an actual shock given, but they thought there was.

And so that was that was one thing that I thought about, as I was thinking about, why would be Frankie do these things? And so one of the things that i've touched on a lot and emphasized in my video is reacting to this case, is that we are therapies actually hold a lot more authority than we like to think that we do. And sometimes we take IT for granted.

But we have been licensed by the state that we work in. We have been given a lot of trust by families, and individuals are coming to us for help. And so often times the advice that we give can be taken as gospel, even if that sounds kind of intuitive, even if that sounds different from what assumptions we come in with.

And obviously, jodie held a brand, did not. He recognized the authority that he had and abused IT and use IT as a tool for her to gain influence, money, power, all of these things. And so that's where my mind goes. When IT comes to rubi, Frankie and jody held a brand.

I say I went on to emphasize that the client provider relationship in the therapy field has in a nate and implicit power dynamic that can be easily wheeled in the various ways when a provider may have ontario motives.

Unfortunately, it's very easy. But that combination of vulnerability and the authority in that their best position for someone to take advantage of IT if they want to, the confidential built into IT, the authority built into IT makes IT right somebody to want to take a bunch of that.

There is Kitty Martins theory echoes similar sentiments.

Now, jody, I believe rule, I thought, was in a power position. And for many reasons, a lot of us view people with licenses, medical or mental health professionals, as people of power. And so because jodie showed interest in ruby and asked her to join in is part of her connections that I don't a business, I guess, or their reputed thing that SHE put together.

Um SHE wanted her to be a part of IT and I think ruby felt like, oh, that's really good because I see her is like having IT together and she's the slicer SE professional oh SHE saw how good I am and that made her feel good. It's almost like ruby got like love bomb and taken into this experience. And so I think that's really why that happened. I know a lot of people like, but SHE didn't seem to take advice from anybody, but then he was like, I don't feel really secure who I am, but i'm going to put up this tough front. But h my god, this person that I think is is an opposition power chose me and then it's easy to manipulate.

But Katie believes there's something more complex behind the impulse. Point the finger, a joy for everything.

I definitely think that the children, even the husband we've seen has put a lot of the blame and the emphasis on jody and the fact he came in and like change things. And I think that you know that a lot of people will want to place all of the blame on joy because that's easier. It's easier to do.

I think in general, when we have someone who's abusive, I mean, I hear from my community all the time about the fact it's really hard to admit that my parents abused me or I was traumatized. Those words can feel really heavy and really big. And when the whole world is telling you that your mom was abusive, you'd actually in jail for IT, it's gonna be much easier to say, oh, that was only because of, you know, her friend that did this SHE.

My mom was fine until SHE joined our family or was right. I think there's gonna some of that because it's hard to mitt that our parents aren't amazing and maybe the death of the dream. You know a lot of my patients over years, I said like I just wish I had a Normal mom or dad.

I they shown up for me the way that I needed. And we still hold out hope in a very strange way. Even if the relationship is known and void or the parents passed away, there still is like dream of what a parent could be. And so it's going to be way easier to look a jodie hilder brand to be like she's the problem because she's .

not my mom kd urges viewers to take a more critical look at rubes part too.

We can't just credit ruby. I mean, think of SHE was an opposition of power all on her own right, like making a lot of money, like there's so much money to me made for vlog ers, which is why family vlog ers exist, you know, was probably the on leader of her household and felt like he is this position of power.

And I think connections, even if we say like o jodie was super manipulative and got her to do these psychologically manipulative things because she's the license council. There's evidence online of ruby doing stuff like that. Before jodie was around IT just went farther just the fact that like booby wouldn't bring her child lunch when they forgotten SHE like you have to go hungry or SHE take away their bedroom or take away things, necessities for a child. That's enough. That's bad enough, and that's abuses and that's also unacceptable.

Sherry bot win shares that in her experience as a licensed clinical social worker, people with trades like rubies often had something occur r early in life that makes them more prone to impression from outside sources.

I've worked with a lot of parents who are very influence by what their parents think or what other people think. So what I see with people is if they have insecurities, like if they're lacking a sense of self, and they feel like they have to worry about what others are gonna think those are the types of people I see maybe adapting other forms of parenting more out of concern about others and how they're think about them, or how they'll view them. And I said, I think that goes back to a core lack of self and self worth and confidence.

People who know who they are and know the way they want a parent would never be influenced by another person in such a way. IT just wouldn't happen. So I feel like some of what must have been happening with this woman, with ruby is something happened to hurt some point in her life, I think, earlier on, where he had these beliefs that were distorted or already so she's more prone or vulnerable to getting into a situation like the one that he was in. Obviously, this is a very extreme situation, but I think I can happen for people when they don't know who they are, they worry about what others are going to think of them.

But what about the victims at the heart of the story? What are the possible outcomes for the Frankie children? And how can they heal from these unthinkable traumas?

It's gonna be a journey for all six of them, but I think each of them, we're gonna have their own response. And it's gona be unique partly to developmental how old they are, but also to the people around them and their relationship. So if they have a family member that they feel some sense of connection to, that will help in their healing process, because that person can then save them.

Things like, there was nothing that you could have done to stop this. This was not your fault. None of what happened should have happened. And what happened to you is because of the pathology that was going on in your mom's head or in this other woman's head.

But SHE emphasized, it's not just the Younger children who will require this .

type of reinforcement. SHarry probably need somebody to tell her everyday. IT was never your jo B2Be the. Protector or the caretaker of your siblings, your a child, even at twenty SHE not not a child anymore, but he still a child in that family. It's not her responsibility to stop something from happening if IT shouldn't be happening.

Sherry also gave an idea of what resources are immediately available to children in the aftermath of being extracted from an abusive home environment, and how important IT is for children to be provided mental health care as soon as possible.

IT depends on the state, but in the state where I live, there is a lot of intravenous. There is a case worker, there is what we call deep briefing, which is done with the therapies, which is very important that when you give children the opportunity to begin talking about what happened, the sooner talks, but less likely they're going to have post dramatics, just disorder when they're my age. So there's a lot of intervention. There's educational information there. I mean, the way I would look at IT is that if the state is doing what they need to do for the child, there are resources that are given to children so that they have multiple forms of there be.

SHE also says considerations for treatment should be tailed to each child's demographic and unique needs.

depending on the age of the child. You know, what china is doing is going to be very different than what russels doing because there's like a seven year age difference. Um there's different types of therapy that they can offer if a child can speak or doesn't have the word.

So it's really about the offering of resources and support. If there are supportive family members, they would also be involved. There would be some psychology cation and therapy offers to them so that they know what say what not to say. One of the things that um happens when you extract somebody from the situation as you want to watch out for different types of behaviors that can begin after the trauma ends um you depression, panic attacks, eating disorders, anxiety, some of those issues can set in more once the trauma ends. So there also needs to be a level of awareness about the possibilities of what could happen now.

And in a family of six, their experiences are sure to vary.

Each of them will have their own reaction and response to what has happened. So really being being able to dress them as individual. S um I know that the two of the Youngest ones and Foster care right now with one of the questions that I want to want to ask is what kind of supporter they getting and how much are they being watched? Because I can imagine those kids living with Foster parents. How are they supposed to trust them?

But Cherry believes hope is not lost. With the proper care and support, the Frankie children can both heal and thrive.

Now I would say even though this is a really awful, awful story, I think there's a lot of hope that will come out of this. Like i'm thinking if Sherry, for instance, is able to listen to some of the reactions of the public and the amount of concern and caring that people feel for her that in and of itself is healing, that there's attention and that there's an acknowledged of what happened and how wrong I was.

I think that when um children are rescued or extracted from this situation, there's years and years of recovery but I think that it's not the same as an adult who blocked out the abuse and then at fifty years old tells me they're just starting to remember what happens. And then when they were thirteen, my hope is if the community is really just sort of providing a safe environment where they feel held, if they have a tribe behind them, a tribe can consist of anybody if they have people through their at the community, through their schools, through the people that they know from, before all this happened. And there's a level of caring and support that will make the biggest difference for them .

beyond community. Kate morton says the siblings can fine support in one another to .

the fact that most of these children are pretty Young leads me to believe that bond will be tighter than maybe other children. I find that usually with siblings and particular, there's this sense of you've been through too, because no matter how many friends or other people we meet who have similar experiences, the chances of IT being are experience is slim to none, but the siblings the closest we're gonna get.

And so when IT comes to those traumatic experience, we usually connect even more intensely. I find specially are Younger. If they can be placed together, hopefully they are um that then they the bombs will grow title and they can feel like they have kind of their own support group to talk about IT. And the more they talk and the more they can process, the Better and the sooner the Better.

One thing about the Frankie children that stands out from other child abuse cases is that nearly seven years of their lives were shared on the internet for the entire world to see. We asked syrian kid to wait in on .

this detail, too. It's so exposing for these children, and like my first thought, is a big thumbs down. It's something that should not be allowed.

I think about, what are you, what? What are parents thinking when they put these type of posts out there for the world to see? My first thought is they're not really thinking, and they're certainly not thinking about the children.

But I think that, you know, IT IT leads those children to feel like they have no sense of privacy. There's no safety, there's no boundaries. The world can judge them. The world can judge their parents. So I just feel like to me it's a form of child abuse. When you go and you put things out there in a way that children don't understand, they don't have a saying IT um that to me is a form of child abuse because the the ramifications, the emotional damage and harm the bully maco commander result of that I don't like family .

blogging because children don't get the freedom to go through experiences in life without having everybody see IT and way in on IT and then they don't get the opportunity to decide who hears and seize that so they don't get to say like, oh, this relationship isn't at that debt or I feel safe enough to let them in on that stuff that's abusive in and of itself and that's really so detrimental.

The two raised valid concerns once that demand attention. Former eight passengers followers Alice dows has noticed that lawmakers and citizens alike are catching on.

I know in several jurisdictions in the united states at the moment, this legislation coming through to protect children who um who have their image and lickin ss online whose families profit of their um image and a lot of people have very strong feelings about whether children should be subject or should have their image online and what the rights of a child dog .

when IT comes to privacy. She's not wrong. In fact, in the very month ruby pleaded guilty, the federal trade commission proposed changes to the nineteen ninety eight children's online privacy protection act, but at present, the proposed changes solely relate to protecting children's data in limiting the extent of what apps can track when IT comes to legislation pertaining to parents profiting and exploiting their children's legless. It's still the wild west youtube mk four size speaks to the helpless is felt in this regard.

It's like the instrumentals task, like where do you even begin? Because anybody can upload videos to the internet and you don't have to upload any sort of records or anything like that. So that's why I feel like this kind of exploitation of people's children and their stories and their privacy has gone on to the point where it's just like uncontrollable. We don't know what to do, where to start because and I don't necessarily fault the tech industry laid the groundwork, but IT is the people who go and up liability as a ticket manager of .

that situation. And given the seemingly uncontrollable nature of the internet, what could feasibly be done? Kd shared her suggestions .

there needs to be more protection for children. I feel like the way that we can go about this would be to not have content with children in IT, be monetization unless you meet X, Y, Z criteria and have to prove IT. Somehow, just like sag and other entities within hollywood, there need to be protections in place so that they get to have a childhood and they get to have privacy, just like we all would want.

But we, as consumers, have a responsibility to Sherry bot win had a particularly chilling observations specific to the rubie Frankie saga.

I think her two point five million audience and their reactions propelled more abuse. But I don't think that the two point five million people people fault. They're not the cause of that. They're raising red flags. I don't know, this doesn't seem right.

Why was he still allowed to post these videos? And how did he get away with this? I can't even imagine if any of her kids someday see some of the reaction of the public and how nothing was done, how devastating that would be for these children that day, in some ways, could have been said by like somebody out in that audience, right? And um IT in the long run IT IT calls more harming again.

The audience didn't do anything wrong. But IT just goes to show you how, you know, we live in a society where people talk about abuse more, but they don't really understand IT. If our society really understood abuse, after SHE started sharing these videos, somebody would have gone to her home and said, you must stop. And there would have been an intervention. IT would never have gotten to this point.

Youtube r. Jordan foresight spoke to a similar point and how the case of eight passengers has her consuming content like family logs. More .

critically, s family bloggers, like these other family bloggers on the internet. I think all of us kind of having the back of my mind now that there's a, at least for me, IT makes me view things with a little bit of difference, like I am more sketches than I was before about these family blockers and what they do behind the scenes just because of the nature, how they Operate and how they treat their children.

And because it's just that like what they put on, it's no different than anybody who runs a social media account, except for they have a massive ve audience and platform and the pressures that come with that to like with ideas of perfections. And they have to show up a certain way. You have to Carry your kids in a certain way.

You have to do things in a certain way. And so I hope IT makes people more skeptical of family logger and supporting them, because the only reason that we will be jodie, got to where they are because they had people who watched them and they had, and that contributed to their venue like we. The people who watched them are not saying her directly responsible, but I kept them on youtube.

Like IT kept them making money. But I think if we don't recognize like the impact that we have on these situations where you have family waters, they're desperate to do blogging because the tower making their money and that's a great place to be. And like, that's a scary place when you rely on blog ing as a source .

of income without proper laws in place protecting the rights of children online, what can we do from the other side of the screen to minimize their exploit?

Don't click IT, don't give them any kind of feedback or monetary or hearts, nothing to encourage the behavior. Because in that way, at at least at this point, that's the only way I can protect the children is to not view IT and to not support IT. And I think brains can do that. I think social media platforms can do that by removing the fiscal game.

And if you insist on watching, find a work around .

if you're going to watch this, do IT and away where they don't get a click or they don't especially they don't get any sort of revenue, which could, in most cases, you can watch a read load. Somebody does that, somebody doing commentary on at that kind of minimize that impact and things like that. So I think a lot of people will kind of see that you was essentially made by social media and the masses and think if we can minimize IT were noticing these kinds of behaviors and someone who was doing harmful things, how can we minimize the influence and the resources that they have to do something .

awful rubie? Frankie and jodie held a brand, maybe the focus of our collective ire right now. But as we look at the current landscape, or institution after institution is coming under fire for their abuse and exploitation of children, vigiLance is paramount.

Ruby, Franky and jill the hill, the brand are just the ones that got caught. This is happening all the time. We are not done.

We can look at the story and go, all right, well, just to study. No, this is the tip of the tip of iceberg. This is happening all over the place.

We will be back on April eighth with a special bonus episode where will dive deep into the records release from the utah sus Franky hildeBrant case. This has been a law and crime production. I'm your host.

Polyborus, our executive producer, is just to allow that our producer and writer is Cooper mall. Our editor is brad. Maybe our bookers are elisa, icier and diane. And special thanks to shang panera for designing our key art.