405: Meet the Stoics with Ken Coleman
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Hey, it's The Way I Heard It. I'm Mike Rowe, and my guest today is Ken Coleman. Who's Ken Coleman, you may ask? You've probably heard him. If you flick around the radio from time to time, he's been out there forever. He's a friend of Dave Ramsey's. I've known Dave for years. I've been interviewed by Ken three or four times, and he promised to return the favor, Chuck, next time he was in L.A. I said, realistically, Ken, are you ever in L.A.? And he said, no.

So I said, well, again, this means you're going to have to fly to LA to be interviewed. And he said, okay. And he did. And I thought it was great. It was great. This guy's a natural born broadcaster, I think. Even though he started a little late, 32 is when he started his career and talks about that a bit. But he's a really smart guy who has a lot to say and a self-described patriot. He kind of put me on the couch a little bit, right? Yeah.

Well, that's kind of what he does with everybody. He's one of these guys who's got a, the Ken Coleman show takes calls and has taken calls for years now from people with all sorts of questions about personal development and stuff like that, but mostly it's leadership. He's become a really trusted voice in this space. And full disclosure, and I told him this to his face the first time we met, I don't,

I'm ambivalent about books that proclaim to have a secret or a strategy or some universal approach to living because I just fundamentally think that cookie cutter advice is, well, it's, you know, it's cookie cutter. It just doesn't apply to a lot of people, but he's really good at this. And what he does doesn't feel cookie cutter at all. Cause it's not, it's very personalized. And that happens near the end of the episode. And, uh,

You seem pretty struck by the accuracy of what he discovered. He's written a couple of books. His latest one, though, I like a lot. It's called Find the Work You're Wired to Do. And there's a lot of stuff in it that rhymes with the micro-works approach to vocation and avocation. But he comes at it from a very deep psychological perspective.

approach and in the book he offers a test of sorts and it's pretty extensive it takes about 15-20 minutes to do

But if you're honest in your answers, you will learn some things about yourself that will pertain directly to the way you think about work and the way you work. I did anyway, and it certainly hit the nail on the head with you, I thought. But mostly, we picked up where we left off. Last time I talked to Ken, we ran out of time. I was on his radio show, and we were just digging into stoicism, which is...

Really, as you'll learn, for me, I've always been interested in it, and I thought that the underlying themes of Dirty Jobs were always stoic in nature. Stoics, of course, was kind of a Greek philosophy that evolved out of a form of suffering and endurance of pain, and ultimately a way to start enjoying things that typically torment you.

There's so much that has been written about all of this. No one ever seems to discuss it anymore in these terms. Well, it certainly was discussed here today. Yeah, man. I wanted to call this In Defense of Stoicism, but since we talk about some of our favorite Stoics, we're just calling it Meet the Stoics. And if the word is somewhat new to you here, let me just Google it real quick. What is Stoicism in simple terms? The foundation of Stoic ethics is that good...

lies in the state of the soul itself, in wisdom and in self-control. One must therefore strive to be free of the passions for the Stoics. Reason meant using logic and understanding, the processes of nature, the logos or universal reason inherent in all things.

At MicroWorks, we just say don't follow your passion, but always bring it with you. Amen. So that resonated with Ken a few years ago. We've been friends ever since. You're going to like him, I promise. Great conversation. And it's coming up on an episode called Meet the Stoics, which begins right after this. Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-

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It was disturbingly smooth. It was a little surprising how good that was. Everything about that moment... Are we rolling, by the way? By the way, that was 11 a.m., I believe. It was 11 a.m. Everything about this moment is surprising. I'm on a plane with Dave Ramsey and Ken Coleman, who is our guest today. And we were winging our way to wherever. And I had brought some barrel strength. That's right. Because I know Dave is a bourbon fan. And he just very casually chucked. He was like, let's crack one and I'm open.

So we do, I don't know, 33,000 feet, 11 in the morning, and somehow the guy's got a stack of red Solo cups. That's right. And out they come.

And if you ever have a sip... You might be a redneck. If. If. On your private jet has red Solo cups. You've got red Solo cups. That's exactly right. And it was just like, here you go. And we pass around, everybody's like, oh, I'm not even sure what the protocol is. So true. And we begin to rationalize. We were like, because we're leaving LA, taking you to Nashville with us for an event. Right. Where it's later. It's later. And Chuck, we begin to rationalize as we...

drew the glass to her mouth or the cup. We were like, well, it's actually one o'clock in Nashville. Right. So this is fun. We're going to be fine. It's okay. We're okay. People like us. We were just reminiscing, trying to triangulate. I think the first time we spoke was probably a radio interview. Yeah.

And then the second time was that. Historic. That bacchanalia in Tennessee. We were, what, two months into COVID? Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was July of 2020 when we did that event.

The way I heard it, you guys were booked Ramsey Solutions giant event down in Florida. Orlando, I think. Like at the Gaylord or something like that. Yeah. You don't want to mess with Dave Ramsey in matters of finance and honor.

It's exactly right. You just don't want to go back on a deal. Right. And this hotel got cold feet and everybody was nervous. Oh, yeah. How did that play out? I mean, from your perspective, watching your boss lead in an unparalleled way.

moment, a truly unparalleled time in our country. What's your take on all that? Well, you know, he's looking at it as we have 4,000 business people that want to come to this event and we have a contract and you're going to renege on the contract and kind of back out. And he said, all right, I'm not going to cancel my event. And this is where, you know, we're probably, let's see, it would have been July. We find out, I want to say in late April, early May that they're going to cancel on us. At this point,

Dave has gathered enough information for him to go, I don't think everybody's going to die. A controversial position. Yeah, radical. Radical. Because we're seven months away from a vaccine that we don't know we're seven months away from. That's correct. Or whether or not it's going to be efficacious by any definition. That's right. We don't know anything. That's right. So he says...

we're going to do our event because as the principal, he's going, I'm not afraid. So I'm going to see how many people are like me. He didn't say this, but this is my take having worked with the man and known him for 20 years, worked with him for 10. And so we put out the word and we said, here's the deal. Hotel canceled.

We're going to pivot. Who's coming with me? It was kind of that Jerry Maguire moment with the goldfish. Yeah. And it was that moment. And he said, we're going to do it in Nashville. We'll let you know when. And we figured out no one else would do it. So then we said, we're going to do it at our place. Yeah. And then he contacted all the speakers, you being one, and said, we're going to do it. He said to the people, if you don't want to come and you're afraid, no pressure. We'll give you a refund, whatever. And we had 900-plus brave souls out of about 4,000. Mm-hmm.

that said, giddy up, we're coming to Nashville, and every one of the speakers actually still showed up, and we did as much protocol as we could to make people feel safe. It wasn't to insult anybody who disagreed with us, but he said, we're going to do this event, and we're going to lead in one of the most uncertain times by having a leadership event.

And I don't think this is hyperbole, Mike, but I would venture to say we were the only live event in America in July of 2020. I knew something important happened as a result of everything you've just described, but I honestly didn't appreciate it to the extent I do today. Right.

because I was just so torn up by this as well. This is a difficult topic to talk about, but it makes perfect sense if we're going to talk about doing the work you're wired to do and if we're going to talk about how to lead in uncertain times. I was overwhelmed with this sense of portent, and I don't want what I'm about to say to sound irresponsible, although I'm sure some people listening will take it that way, but the constant balance of risk and reward

of personal responsibility, of living your life. Like we were, all of us, suddenly forced to make that calculus in our schools, in our homes, in our places of work.

And for me, it became critically important to get Dirty Jobs back on the air and start shooting. And I didn't realize it at the time, but we were doing that in July, too, for the exact same reasons you and your boss were doing what you were doing. And I don't say any of this to take a victory lap or to be too much of a Monday morning quarterback, but didn't it feel crystal clear to you that it was a time of...

choosing and that the stakes were even larger than life and death. There was something else at stake. What was it? I think it was a choice between fear and belief.

You could say faith, but I'm not trying to spiritualize that. I'm saying true belief. I think it was a time for choosing. I love that you used that. It's one of my favorite speeches ever. Ronald Reagan gave that. And I think it's such a crystallizing way of saying, and I think you're right. It was a matter of us saying, we are going to choose belief. And we believe that this thing has been overhyped. We think it's been turned into a control mechanism and driven by fear.

And I think fundamentally it was we listened to the government leaders. We were paying attention to everything that everybody else was. And instead of cowering and kind of pulling back and operating from a place of fear, we were like, well, we kind of believe we're going to be okay. We think that we actually need to get back to the business of living and moving forward and taking what is a clear disruptor,

with serious consequences, not in any way minimizing the fact that people did die, but also going, how do we walk into the unknown? And I think it was the great unknown. And I think that there are two types of people in the world, Mike. I think there are people that when the unknown hits them, they act default towards fear.

And then there's other people who act with the default towards belief. In other words, what I mean is they believe there's still a way forward. Right. You may have to go back. You may have to go around. But ultimately, we're going to keep moving forward. There's a sense of resilience there.

And I think it's resilience versus retreat. And I just think you're either wired one way or the other. I do believe, by the way, that you can move from fear to belief. Sure. I do believe that. So I'm not going to categorize anybody, but I just think that that was the choice. Okay. We don't know what's going to happen. And I remember specifically, Dave stood up in front of our entire company and said, all right, we have no idea what's going to happen to our business. No idea. So here's what we're going to do. And he methodically walked through if things get really bad,

Here's what we're going to do as an organization. And he began to walk through it with specific detail. And let me tell you something that is great leadership is to step into uncertainty and go, here's what we know. Here's what we don't know based on those two factors. Here's what we believe. And this is back to that word. Believe this is what we believe we should do. And then you just walk forward. And I just think that that's the essence of strength.

It's belief over fear. Your daily show is rooted in leadership principles. You've written a lot on this. You live this. It's a fascinating topic to me. But before we dive into the nuts and bolts of it, how did what we're talking about now

impact your worldview? Yeah. Whether did it strengthen, magnify, elevate, confirm? And what was the reaction of your listeners to all this? Yeah. You know, I'm glad you bring it up because we, Dave and I, I have the Ken Coleman show as a part of the Ramsey network. And then of course the Ramsey show. And so I was the only other radio show in the building and daily. And so we kept coming in. Uh, we never missed a day of work. Uh,

We had a skeleton crew, even in the days of the most unknown, we were coming in. And I remember Dave had to call the mayor and the sheriff and go, I got a skeleton crew coming in and I deem them essential. And so I need to know that you're going to be okay with that because there was no one on the streets. And as a result, we came in every day. And here's what I learned. It magnified my existing belief that there's always a way forward. Yeah.

And so it was just, I had the uncertainty like everybody else. I think I had some initial fear. Is this thing going to kill me and my family? I mean, I did. I think we all did. Sure. My goodness. There was a, it doesn't matter what channel you were on. There was a ticker of how many people were dying. It was so much doom and gloom. And I think you get to a point where you either buy into that or you go, what I'm seeing reported doesn't seem to be the case in my neighborhood and around me. And I think it just magnified that I'm a guy who, uh,

I'm not a very fearful person. It's my upbringing, I think it's my wiring, and so it just magnified my belief that there is resilience in the human spirit, no matter how dark or how bleak it gets, and we can look back to history for this. You look back to the Dark Ages and some of the most epically awful periods of history, where COVID's a joke. Doesn't even make it in the appendix of what we've seen in history.

And I just want to be that person that goes, I'm not going to fade. I'm going to move forward. That's just how I'm wired.

I think it's important too to point out that you don't come out of the gate that way. No. Right? Like the headlines aren't what they are and you don't look at them and go, oh, nonsense. Right. Right? Everybody's sphincter slammed shut. That's right. For a bit. That's right. And then we understand that we're going to take some time, a couple weeks in this case. Right. And then we're going to take a couple weeks after that. Right. Okay. And then once the date vanished, that's when we were like, look, we have to know that

Otherwise, and I think the big pushback I got during all that was when a lot had been written about the Blitz and Londoners living for months on end with these indiscriminate bombings that they knew were coming. They just didn't always know when, the sirens. And, you know, for two weeks they stayed underground. Yeah.

Bombings didn't stop. That's right, but they began to come out they open shops. They open schools bombs still fell Yeah, that's right. And I just wondered aloud if at some point the average person will become bored with being terrified It's exhausting. It's exhausting. Yeah, it's just exhausting Yeah cars weren't built to sit in the driveway and boats weren't built to sit in the harbor and we weren't built to sit inside yeah, and so

Do you think we still have some sort of collective PTSD over this whole thing? I do. Because now I think, I don't think people will admit it, but I think a lot of people who chose fear because of whatever, and I'm not judging at all, but I think that they bought it hook, line, and sinker. By the way, fear creates a reliance on authority, whereas belief creates a reliance on self. And that's a massive chasm. I'm glad you brought up the British chasm.

Last summer I went to Churchill's bunker with my wife, and it was fascinating to get into that bunker. Have you been? No, I haven't. And what's fascinating about it is it's underground, and they show you, by the way, when you're walking into it, where all the bombs dropped around it. Is it near Downing? Yes, absolutely. It's essentially around the corner. Yeah. Okay? And it was not fortified, but Churchill had his top people tell the staff that it was fortified.

by steel, but it wasn't. And here's a guy that was in a bunker that had no safety at all other than it was below the street. And he slept in that bunker. And as you know, he also walked among the people. He got on the train and he just walked among them. And here's a guy that was just like, we have one option here. We either cower and surrender or

or we decide to fight and i've got to play this role and i think he believed it i think he believed it and so we were at that position mike where we were like it's time to take a stance and go we believe we're going to be okay we believe that society will still exist so to the ptsd yes i think a lot of people are going i don't know what to believe because everybody that's in authority mike told me that

that I needed to be really, really scared and really, really careful. And now the news is coming out going, hmm. So we're not sure that this thing actually worked. We now know that masks don't really protect us. What am I to believe? Because there's a lot of fearful people who said, I trust in my governor and my mayor. Turns out the mayor and the governor didn't know anything either. And then those of us who went, I don't think the mayor and the governor know anything either.

I'm going to go with my gut and my rationale, and I'm going to believe it's okay. Funny how certainty wasn't a casualty of all of that. I mean, it's funny how people who really didn't know never started sounding any less certain. Exactly. Right? And that's why I think the work you're doing is important. We've lost our faith in our institutions. That's right. I'd like you to riff, too, on the difference between belief and truth. Okay. Because the Churchill example is great.

He needed the people around him to believe that he was safer than he was. He knew the truth. He understood the real risk-reward in this equation. It's not too dissimilar than walking across a high wire and looking down and seeing the net. When you know there's a net there, every single thing in your physiology and in your brain will behave differently.

Remove the net. But if you think there's a net and there's not, what does that mean? Right? So belief and truth. Yeah. And I really wonder, we've become obsessed with the truth of a thing because it's an important thing to understand. But in reality, isn't it belief that shapes our behavior more than anything actual? Dumb.

Well, this is alarming. I just read that as of today, one in four Americans have at least one credit card that is completely maxed out. We now hold $1.3 trillion collectively in credit card debt. That's a $50 billion increase from this time last year.

I know some of those people who are underwater got that way because they bought things they didn't need and couldn't afford. And I don't know what to say about that. But other people, lots of others, are living paycheck to paycheck, reeling from inflation, drowning in the cost of day-to-day necessities, and using their good credit to get by.

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Before you make another credit card payment, see what Better Debt Solutions can do to help you settle your debt faster and easier than you thought possible. Check them out at BetterDebtNow.com slash Mike for a free consultation. That's BetterDebtNow.com slash Mike. Yeah, because the actual relationship between truth and belief is what you believe to be true.

then what guides you. So I can sit down with an atheist and have a fascinating conversation. I believe there absolutely is a God and all of that, but I can have a fascinating conversation. And when you sit with somebody, which I enjoy doing, who is completely opposite of me, you really understand the relationship between truth and belief. So when I sat down in this chair a few moments ago, Chuck said, "Ken, you're sitting here." I made a quick decision

that I believed that this chair was gonna hold my weight. - We'll see. - Exactly, so far so good. But I didn't get down on my hands and knees and examine it. I just kind of went, why? Well, because there's a truth here that I go, people who made this, they did good craftsmanship. I believe it's true that most chairs hold my weight. So therefore it is an instinctive belief

And so, therefore, I'm not fearful. I'm not sitting around going, hey, Chuck, how's this chair? Is it going to hold my weight? I'm about $1.65. Is it going to be okay? I'd like to do some Yelp reviews, maybe have a look at how many people... Yeah, you see, that's a fear-based thing. Same thing when you got in the Uber yesterday. Same thing when you got on the plane. Yeah. You have to suspend...

certain beliefs, but you also have to embrace others. Otherwise, we just don't live. Yes, and you're walking around chicken little, and I'm afraid we're in a society because we are over-informed, and we are over-marketed too. I mean, when I was a kid, and I sound like the boomer here, and I'm not a boomer, I'm an Xer, but listen, for lack of a better example, my mom and dad were in town recently, and

And we got talking one night, just what it was like when I was growing up. And I was like, "Hey, quick question, Mom. There wasn't a car seat." I knew the answer, but I just wondered, "What'd you do with me in 1974 when I was born, when you took me out?" She goes, "I held you in my arms in the front seat." Now, I'm not in any way suggesting that that's the best way to go. But at the time...

At the time, there was no stigma, no stereotype, no cautionary tale. But can I also suggest that we also probably drove a little safer.

Sure. Back to your point about the net on the higher. Take the helmets off the NFL players. Guess what? They learn how to tackle. That's right. Because if you watch the old footage of Red Grange and some of these guys that are wearing a piece of leather that are no thicker than my shoe, guess what? They didn't turn themselves into human missiles. They let you run up beside them, and they did a Greco-Roman kind of a side tackle move. So if you want to fix the NFL right now,

Take the helmets and pads away. You want kids to actually ride a bike the right way? Take the bubble wrap off of them. When you and I were kids, if you wrecked, you stuck to the sheets for five days. You know what I mean? And you were reminded every night when you turned over, ah!

I should probably not be a jackass when I ride my bike. Now the evidence demands a verdict. Now you can point to consequences. Now the effect and the cause are somehow linked. Right. But it's the unintendedness of all this going back, not necessarily to COVID, but to safety protocols. And I know we've riffed on homeostatic risk and risk equilibrium and our brains and

They call it compensatory risk. And it's subconscious. But every test conducted shows that motorcycle riders with helmets...

corner tighter and drive faster because the risk is seeking its equilibrium. And the more safety protocols you employ, the riskier the behavior becomes. And the next thing you know, somebody's like a pilot is saying that, ah, the most important thing here at American Airlines is your safety. Never mind the miracle of defying gravity and getting you from A to B in an aluminum tube. Right, exactly. So all of that is backsliding

back to this notion of warm milk and beliefs

But it's also really so much easier, Ken, to judge than think. So when you look back at 74, your mom was a bad mom for holding you. And my dad was derelict for suggesting I get into the, not the back seat, but the ledge on top of the back seat. Oh, that was the greatest part of the vacation. Where the window goes down and the warm sun. Yeah, let him sleep up there. There's nothing better than laying in the back of the car and just staring like a zombie at the car behind you.

By the way, that wasn't awkward back then. Could you imagine being in a car right now and there's a six-year-old going like this? You would call 911. You would. Amber alert. Somebody would. But that's what we did back then. We stared out the window. So back to the point is that this idea of truth and belief, I love the question. And I think if you're walking around and you think the truth is that everybody's out to get you,

If you think the truth is that the American dream is slipping away, I could just go on and on. So based on what you believe is true. Perception is reality. That's it. Then we know by research that what we focus on is what we see. Okay. I want to get into the research of this book. I think it's super interesting, but I just want the listener to be aware of one other thing.

A couple things, actually. Your flight was delayed roughly three hours. - That's right. - You showed up at three in the morning. - That's right. - You got about three hours of sleep. Whenever you did KTLA, you're strung out, you're full of coffee. There are a thousand places you'd rather be doing. You'd rather be sleeping right now. You and Kurt here, you're publicists. You'd rather be back at the Mondrian or whatever fabulous place you're staying in. - Not true, actually.

You show up here 15 minutes early. No extra credit for that, by the way. Whatever, obviously. We were ready for you. Oh, super ready. Yeah. But here's what I want people to know. We meet outside. You get out of the car. Chuck's coming down. I'm walking over. We all kind of meet. We open up our door here. You have no idea where you're going. No clue. Not a clue.

Yeah. What do you do? You step out in front and you just start walking. I did. And we just start following you. Yeah. I'm looking around going, has he been here? No, he hadn't been here. No idea. And we finally get to a point where, you know, there's a fork in the road, maybe an elevator behind. He doesn't know. And at that point, you stop and you're like, okay, I'm going to need somebody else to very temporarily take charge. I did. I was like, I realize I have no idea where I'm going. Now.

Knowing that you're a guy who will set out walking, taking large steps with a fair amount of certainty with no clear idea of where he's going. What a great description. I can imagine all the fun my teachers had with me. Well, what I'm trying to imagine is how you run your radio show and how you think about the people who are calling in who are either struggling. I've heard you deal with...

It must be exciting not to have any idea what the question's going to be. It's ultimately such a rush. You know this. I do. To get a question and you have no idea where it's going and your job is to quickly get to the heart of the problem. And because it started out in radio, I had to do it in eight minutes.

And a really good coach needs, you know, an hour. I can really do some heart surgery on somebody. But when you have to learn how to do it in eight minutes, trial by error, and you learn quickly how to get to the problem fast. There's always about four layers above is the question that presents. And my job is to quickly help them see the question you're really asking is this.

So it's fun. You're right. It's fun. - So that's, I mean, I'm gonna ask it wrong. What I'm trying to get at is the fact that that on-the-job learning on your part has been happening for many, many, many decades with professionals who behind closed doors with their patients lying on couches, right? All of that learning is happening and a good coach, a good teacher, a good psychiatrist

gets good by getting better over time. You're doing it on the air. You're doing it without a net. Dave does it without a net to really torture the metaphor. So you're dispensing advice. People are taking it and it's heavy, man. And so...

at least through the lens of leadership, I'd love to understand how you think about all of that. And we were talking about my mom earlier too. It's very easy for an 86-year-old woman to encourage people to never quit because it worked for her.

doesn't work for everybody. That's right. So how do you help your callers without consorting to the cookie cutter, bromide, platitudinous advice that's wrecking the country? Well, you know, it is a function of getting to the source of what they're actually feeling. They're contacting me and there is a feeling that they get to the point where they go, I'm going to call this national show and I'm going to talk about my work life.

And it's a very intimate thing, you know, and there's something about the phone where they feel a little safer than if we were alive face to face. That's a little bit more intimidating for people, but there's a little bit of safety there. And so what you're trying to do is very quickly get to, all right, you asked me this. In other words, I'll give you a classic example. A lady calls one of my favorite calls.

lady calls she says ken i'm a rare one you haven't talked to me before and i'm thinking yes i have you just have a different name and a different face but pretty much i've talked to you she says uh

I'm really confused because I'm very successful. I make about $350,000 a year in pharmaceutical sales. She goes, I always get all the awards. I'm really good at it. I've always been good at sales. I do it so instinctively. She goes, but Ken, I am absolutely miserable. And so I immediately go, what do you think is driving the misery? I knew what the answer was, but I wanted her to say it.

She fumbles around a little bit. I keep diving in and she eventually goes, I'm bored. And I go, exactly. You are so good at it.

But there's no real enjoyment and there's no real motivation behind it. It's just you're really, really good at selling this stuff. And it's a drug. And all you got to do is talk about it. They give you a brochure. And she is there's something else there. And I said, OK, I said, you're really good with people. So I think you need to be doing people work. Would you agree? She goes, yes. That's what I've always been thinking. And I said, all right, simple question.

I think passion comes from pain many times. I really believe that. And I said, who are the people that you would just love to help? If I just gave you 350K and I just said, you get to go help these people, who would you help? Same paycheck, new job responsibility. And I just say, but I just put it in the context of, and this is my answer to your question. I'm going right to the emotion around her problem.

and so i say to her who would be those people and she says women and i say tell me more what kind of women who are these women what's the need she goes women who are unhealthy and out of shape physically and i said now why is that the answer i already know the answer before she even says it she says because i have lost over 100 pounds

in the last six months and she begins to cry. And she goes, "It's changed my life." And I stay there and I say to her, "Tell me how it's changed you." She's weeping. And she begins to tell me, and I said, "All right, so let's ideate. How would somebody like you who can sell ice to Eskimos

are you allowed to say that anymore is that i don't know we might have to add ice okay we prefer but it has to be frozen frozen water yeah frozen water to indigenous inhabitants of the northern climate thank you so she could do that and i said how would you help these women give me a couple of ideas in the world of work where you could meet those women what do you mean by women can

And so we discussed that for 35 minutes. And so anyway, she's still weeping and she goes, a nutritionist, a health coach, you know, and she began to ideate. And so when you ask me, what am I doing in that? I am trying to get to the thing that we all want to answer.

And we come about it in different ways, and we maybe ask it in different ways. But the essential question we all want to answer is, what should I do with my life? And that comes from an emotional need that I believe is so deep to say, I want to make a difference. I want to make my mark.

Inevitably, we just all arrive at that. You don't have to teach a kid to say no. These little kids, they just figure out one day a moment of rebellion, and you didn't teach them, and they just say no with a conviction. I also think that we're hardwired for that same thing, to lay awake at night. Some people, it comes to them at 12, sometimes at 42, whatever. But I do believe we all want to say, "What's my mark? What's the mark that I'm supposed to make?" Whether I'm a person of faith or I'm an atheist,

We all have this soul that longs to make a contribution. I really believe that. At our best, our humanness, we want to make a difference in this world. And so I'm trying to get to that need and then tie it to this way to make money. But to make money, but also to go, even in the suckiest of days, this work matters to me. Maybe the money is a symptom.

of the thing and not the thing. Well, it always is. We know this from all kinds of research. Well, not with her. With her, she was probably, even though she was bored, she was looking at a pile of money and saying, probably some guilt too. I feel guilty for being bored because I have it better than everybody else on my block. So what kind of douche am I? Well, okay. And you're right. And let's do the cousin to that. Not so much guilt, but shame.

Because imagine all of her friends and family who don't make anywhere close to $350,000. And she says to them, I'm walking away from this. And she's got the benefits, the car, that 401k. Because it's not all that stuff you dream of and desperately want. It's simply not enough for me. Because I'm over here trying to answer a better question, a deeper question. And we're afraid of what people will say about us. It's the old, we've heard the phrase golden handcuffs. Sure. That's where that comes from. This idea of, I've realized it's not about money.

Money's good. All for making money. But I think at the end of the day, I mean, Viktor Frankl nailed it. I'm just a Johnny-come-lately. I believe in it in search of meaning. I could have just said, that's the answer. Go read Viktor Frankl, because I think this guy has nailed it. Explain more about Frankl for people. Well, Frankl, of course, you know, is in a prison camp in Nazi Germany. And, you know, we're talking about... This is actually...

I think this makes the case for what you and I are about. Many times the torture in those concentration camps was not physical. Right. It was the mental, and I dare say spiritual torture. I'll give you an example. They were told to move one pile of rocks, big heavy rocks, from one spot of the prison camp to this spot of the prison camp. And imagine that's physically exhausting and daunting because they're starving, they are being beaten,

But you're moving this pile of rocks to this spot. And once we move this spot, we're going to move it over here. And you want to talk about the ultimate torture is meaningless work. And he is sitting there, and that is where all of his work comes from. In Search of Meaning is a classic. I recommend everybody read it. If you just got a little glimpse into what Mike and I are talking about, and you go, I think there's something to this, you need to read that and take the perspective of,

world-renowned psychologist who actually was confronted with and so you know what he does he redoes all of his work from memory and he survives because he was no longer focused on the rocks while he's dealing with all the atrocities he is every minute he can his mind is trying to recreate and rewrite everything that he had done prior to now that is meaning

Another shameless plug. A shameless plug. Well, my mother has done it again. She's written another book. This one might be her best one yet. It's called, Oh No, Not the Home. Observations and Confessions of a Grandmother in Transition. My job, of course, is to sell it. Although, honestly, they kind of sell themselves at this point.

Her last three books have gone to the top of every list because they're great. People love my mom. She writes honestly with warmth and great humor about whatever's around her. And what's been around her for the last few years are the people at the Oak Crest Retirement Community. And I'm telling you, I don't know that anybody else could have made a book about

That this funny I just laughed throughout the whole thing and I know you will as well I'm kind of leaning into the whole social media element of this because I'm a little worried This election is gonna suck all the air out of the room and it's gonna be tough to get my mom and dad up to New York to promote this thing the way we normally do so I'm asking people who who are fans to please reserve a copy now in advance at Mike Rowe comm slash mom's book and

Makes it a lot easier to anticipate what we're going to have to do next month when this thing actually hits the shelves. Anyway, MikeRowe.com slash mom's book. Reserve your copy of Oh No, Not the Home or any of our three previous bestsellers. They're all laugh out loud funny. Thanks very much. I appreciate it.

He's not only engaged in meaningless work, he's doing it in the ultimate lockdown, to bring it back to where we started. Exactly right. He has no agency. That's right. He has no choice. And the only work at his disposal is meaningless. Right. Yeah. That's the essence of soul deadening. And I think the most useful stuff with Frankel is the relative comparative analysis that

any one of us having a bad day. We got a buddy around here called Travis Mills. You might know Trav. He was one of the first quadruple amputees to survive Afghanistan. Wow. No, I don't know him. Oh, he's amazing. Read his books. His foundation up in Maine is terrific. But the downside of talking to Travis is

Yeah. Is that all your excuses leak from the nearest hole. So true. And you're just there in a puddle of your own ennui. So true. Forced to think differently. That's right. About your pile of rocks. That's right. And since you've mentioned rocks and since you've mentioned Franklin, I think you and I

had a great conversation about four months ago that ended on the Stoics and Stoicism. So without getting too wonky about it,

Bend this into that. Yeah. Well, I sent you a book that I'm reading right now called The Pursuit of Happiness, which if any of us paid attention in school, and I'm afraid that less and less kids even know the phrase, Jefferson pins it in the first phrase of the Declaration of Independence, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And so I saw this book because I'm always reading this kind of stuff. And this author goes into Jeffrey Rosen into a great explanation.

exploration of America's founding fathers and how they were influenced by the Stoics. And when you get into it, this is the short version, the pursuit of happiness was actually about virtue, living a virtuous life. We're talking Cicero, Epictetus, we're talking about a long time ago, we're talking about people that were born into slavery. Douglas. Yeah, and so when you look at what the pursuit of happiness means, it is a pursuit to be the best version of yourself.

So it's not just about morals, you know, it is about, am I improving? It is that asking and answering that question on a daily basis. This is what drove the Stoics in that phrase, the pursuit of happiness. So of course we see Stoic writing on how do you handle disappointment? How do you handle anger? All those issues. Can you just real quick define Stoicism in a way that we can all shorthand it? My version of Stoicism, how I would define it is the ability to control self.

That's how I would define it. Trying to use phraseology, mind over matter. It's this idea that no matter what comes my way, I'm going to adapt and handle it and control myself. That's how I would define it. Yeah. Do you agree with that? I think we're... I'm trying to use every man language here. Well, we're adjacent. I think Frankl was a Stoic. Yeah. Sisyphus, obviously. Right. Back to the rock thing. When I started to think differently about that,

was when a philosophy professor said, look, we use Sisyphus as an example of futility and the kind of soul-deadening, meaningless work that comes from pushing a boulder up a hill every single day only to see it roll back down, only to do it again. He said the Stoic not only finds a way to control himself

deal with it, the Stoic finds a way to love it. Yes. And to find meaning in the meaningless. Correct. And to me that's what Frankl did by going back simply by surviving that. That kind of makes the point. But the idea that pushing a rock up a hill can not only be not futile but actually wonderful.

That means that I can tilt at windmills too. That's exactly right. And find a way to be okay. That's right. And so, yeah, we're saying the same thing. Yeah. So the Stoics, I mean, if you look at the life that some of them lived, it was tremendously awful, you know, and they were killed, falsely accused. Some of the giants, I don't want to go down this rabbit hole because I could, it's one of my favorite things to talk about is history. But back to our discussion of meaning,

With Frankel's book, In Search of Meaning, it's one of the greatest titles ever because I do believe that no matter who you are, where you're from, who you love, sex, race, creed, I don't care. I believe there's this still small voice in here that goes...

Am I making a difference? And by the way, no one else gets to answer that question. I'm fierce, fierce in protecting the individuality of that answer. Because I would submit to you that a school teacher, while may never writing a book or having a show is making a

an enormous difference. I believe the men and women that you've had on your shows are making a difference. Now it's not sexy and it's not glamorous and it's really hard work. That's what you really, but I believe that somewhere in their psyche, they went, this is making a difference. And nobody's going to brag about me except for this guy named Mike Rowe who comes around and stuck a camera in my face. And all of a sudden I'm getting attention. But the reality is

They have in their own way said, this is a functional job that is making life better for somebody. It's making society better. And oh, by the way, it's making my family life better because I'm a multimillionaire or I'm living comfortably even though I'm in crap all day long or whatever it is. But those men and women that you showcased to me,

are illustrating what happens when there is a sense of meaning when I show up and do what I have to do. Thanks for saying that. No, it's absolutely why I fell in love with it. Well...

When I was pitching, I haven't confessed this before, but there were a lot of working titles for Dirty Jobs early on. And there was a wonderful producer who just recently passed away over at Discovery called Sean Gallagher. And I was in a meeting with him and I described the show. It was called Somebody's Gotta Do It. Yes, which I love that. At the time. And we were workshopping new titles. That's how out of touch I was. I seriously pitched Meet the Stoics. Really? Yeah.

And he was like, hey, yeah, man, listen up. It's reality TV. It's too deep. It's the Discovery Channel. I'm thinking like, you know, filthy days or crusty vocations or dirty jobs. Okay. Yeah. But I do believe that the out of sight, out of mind work combined with the

a cheerfulness. People ask me all of the time, what did that cohort on that show know that the rest of the people, that the rest of us either don't know or have forgotten? And it's the precise thing we've been talking about for the last 40 minutes. It's that there is meaning in everything. So the book is called Find the Work You're Wired to Do. But this thing is very, very tricky.

Because it comes with this really intense survey. And I wonder, having browsed through both, what's the chicken? What's the egg? What's the dog? And what's the tag? So I'll start with the methodology. It's very simple. Here's my theory. If you use what you do best to do something you enjoy to produce a result that you care about,

meaning, deep meaning, Viktor Frankl level meaning. And I'll just say it again. And I've worked on that sentence. You and I are word guys. I don't think there's any error in that sentence. If you said, Ken, keep editing that, I could not edit that sentence any shorter because I believe it says, and here I'll say it again. If you use what you do best, talent, to do work you love, passion, to produce results that you care deeply about, mission,

And I'm using the word mission intentionally there because of the military usage of the word mission is probably the broadest usage of the word in our language. Certainly there is a Christian version, right? You would see a Spanish mission. There's a mission there. What are we talking about? They were proselytizing or a military mission is it's very clear. Go get bad guy rescue hostages. The mission, the result there is very clear. So when you use what you do best to do work, you love to produce results you care about.

Now you are experiencing deep meaning, whether you are doing a dirty job or you are teaching an elementary school kid or you are on the battlefield or you are in a white collar job.

It's all very, very personal there. So the methodology is that. So what the assessment does is called the Get Clear Career Assessment. And it measures you in those three areas. And I believe they're wires. If I rip you open, you got three wires. And those are the three wires. Talent, what I do best. Passion, what I enjoy doing most. And then mission, the results that motivate me. In other words,

If I'm doing something as a result of work, and you asked me earlier, what is it like to coach people? That's got to be fun. Can I just tell you something? Yeah. It is so motivating for me. I can't tell you how many days I've done that show when I felt like crap, had a fever, had personal stuff going on in my life when I didn't feel I had anything else to give. And I'm just going to be real transparent here. I mean, just some stuff I've had to deal with with one of my kids. It's been really heartbreaking. And there were days where

And you've been in my studio and behind that big screen is a little closet. And it's probably about 10 feet long and about four feet deep. And there have been days, multiple days, Mike, where I sat in that room quietly gathering myself because I was in deep personal pain, wanting to just go home and get in bed. What drew me in, I can now look back on those days and what drew me into that show that day when I honestly on the way in did not believe I had anything to give.

I'm just going to coach people and I'm, I'm so broken and so confused and so scared and so doubtful from a personal level. And I can look back on that for some reason, I would say that God encouraged me in some small way, not some voice out of the sky. I'm just saying, I knew people were counting on me. Calls were lined up. And I, excuse me, but that's Churchillian. It got me in the chair because, and by the way, that work,

It was that result. Sorry to cut you off, but it was, I knew that there were people that were counting on me and where I felt like a failure as a dad, I had the chance to be successful as a professional, to put my pain aside for a moment and try to step into the life of somebody else. And it was the thing that kept me going, Mike.

So I bring that up. I didn't plan on going there, but I bring that up to when we talk about results that motivate you. And for me, it is I love encouraging and equipping people. If I wasn't doing this, I'd be coaching probably high school basketball. Why? Because I just want to equip and encourage people to transform their life. That's just who I am. And it was those days that that meaningful work got me through tremendous personal pain. But you also want to see the needle move.

I do. That's about you. That I think is really important. At least it is for me. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I've helped a bunch of people and that makes me feel good in the aggregate and it makes me feel good in a general way. It's not enough. That's right. I need to meet them. Yeah. Not all of them. That's right. But some of them. That's right. I need to see them at work. I need to see their new toolbox. Love that. And that's selfish of me, but...

It's honest. I'm not altruistic. I think selfishness, not together. Why do you think that's selfish? Well, because we're told that to care deeply...

This came up on Returning the Favor all the time. It was a show that focused on people I called bloody do-gooders just because I tried to take some of the earnestness out of their decency. And the point I found myself always making, which is stoic adjacent, was you guys who are doing all this great work in your community and doing it in such a selfless way are truly wonderful. But you're also selfish and

in the literal sense, because you're doing what you want to do. Yeah. And because you're enjoying the thing you're doing. Right. And basically because of the sentence that you just said, you're doing a thing that you want to do. Yeah. That's selfish. But if the thing you're doing, because you want to do it, is helping other people...

Okay. Let's rebrand selfish. Selfish needs better PR. So self-ish. There you go. In other words, if the methodology, I know I got on a rabbit hole, if you use what you do best to do what you love to produce results that matter, you are being your true self.

And so now I am being self-ish and I am making a contribution to the world that is making it better. Work is meant for good. That's right. And so to answer this quickly, this measures those three wires. It tells you what your top talents are. Think of those as power tools. You understand that well. Instead of a handsaw, let's use a power saw.

So let's do work that we're really actually really good at because if we have some talent and my dear friend and mentor, I used to work for John Maxwell, the leadership guru. He used to say, if you're a four or five and you work your butt off, you'll only be a six or seven. And I got to tell you, baby doll, nobody pays for six and sevens. And he's right. In other words, so if I take my talent and let's say I'm a seven or an eight and I work my butt off, I can be a nine or a 10 and the world pays for nine or tens. What did you learn?

from Art Linkletter when you repped him back in your days over at, was it Premier? Yeah, Premier Speakers Bureau. Yeah, still in Nashville. You know, Art Linkletter taught me two things. One, he taught me the power of charm.

probably the most charming person I've ever met in my entire life. He's a charming son of a bitch. He really was something. You knew him, right? We shook hands once. I didn't know him. I had the privilege as a 27-year-old to be his booking agent. So I got to speak to him all the time. But I mean, you talk about a charming individual when he was around strangers.

You've heard stories of Bill Clinton from his opponents saying the man makes you feel you're the only person on the universe. The only person I've ever experienced that with was Art Linkletter. So number one, he was very, very charming. He had a twinkle in his eye, a little bounce in his step. In on the joke. A story all the time. He's always had something. By the way, and I'm not just saying this because you're here. You and I have had the opportunity to do a lot of stuff in front of a lot of people. But I've also been able to hang out with you behind the scenes. Same guy. I think...

And I'm saying this, we're forgetting you for a moment, folks. Apologize, I'm taking over the show. I'll be right back. He has that kind of charm. Absolutely. He absolutely does. Always has. Because you treat everybody with a sense of presence, that's charm. But the thing that we were talking about earlier that you wanted me to share is Art Linkletter taught me the power of being a voracious, and look that word up, a voracious learner. And he believed it was the key to longevity. Right.

And I think your mom models that. Your audience knows your mom well. I mean, you're talking about a woman who is as sharp at 86 as she was at 46. Would you say that? I mean, a little bit of slippage, but that's normal? No, actually, no. I mean, just sharp. Why? Because you told me she's been writing every day for 60 years. I'll tell you this. If you do curls every day for 60 years... You're going to be jacked. Dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum

So as you may have heard, the MicroWorks Foundation gave away a couple million dollars last month in the form of work ethic scholarships, something we do every year, in part because we're able to raise money through a variety of unusual fundraisers. And one of those that's turned out to be super consistent for us is the sale of my granddad's whiskey. Noble Tennessee Whiskey, K-N-O-B-E-L, started as a fundraiser a few years ago, but is now in...

like 30 different states on shelves, which is unexpected, but great. People love the stuff. But we still offer it online because that's where we can make money for the foundation. And right now, we've got the Quadriga Plus, an exclusive mini mic while supplies last. What is a mini mic? Easier just to go to noblespirits.com and get a look.

for yourself. I'm staring at me right now having a virtual drink of my granddad's whiskey, and you can prop me up and join me if you'd like. Noblespirits.com Four different varieties available in the Quadriga. I got the original, the Rick House, the Barrel Strength, which has a kick to it, and the Rye, which people love. Check it out. Noblespirits.com Thank you very much.

So that's what art taught me. What muscle are you exercising? That's a great question, right? Yeah, I think curiosity is the muscle. That's the only C word. He taught me that. We all come at that hardwired. Little kids come into the world. Why, Daddy? Why, Daddy? Why, Daddy? They're not trying to be obnoxious.

They're trying to get to the bottom of it. Well, it's unadulterated curiosity. Absolutely. But because they're young, it isn't tempered with anything resembling delayed gratification. Yeah. I said, why? And I've been waiting now for nearly three seconds. Okay. Is there going to be an answer forthcoming or not? Right. And then I need to dig into that answer. Here's something said in my very first book I wrote. It's called One Question. And it was illustrating the power of one question that could transform your life. Because I really believe that the right question is a scalpel.

Or I could hearken it to a key. I believe that one great question can unlock life's greatest mysteries. I believe that to my core. And as you know, for years, I've developed the skill of working on being a master interviewer is my goal. I'm not there yet. But I love the art of a question. I think it's an art form. So all that said, I was doing research for the book. And this is sad. And why the work that you're doing at micro works is so important.

This is old research, but when I wrote this in 2012, the University of Michigan came out with a study that showed that by the time the average American student reaches the eighth grade, they're asking only one to three questions a day. And you see, you already feel that. Juxtapose that to this toddler who comes into the world hardwired with a sense of wonder. It's actually wonder.

Yeah, but the why is their little brains are like, I wonder why this? I wonder why that? And we've kind of... We've beat it out of them. We've beat the wonder. Because see, there's two types of wonder. There is the Christmas morning... What's in the box? ...pure, unadulterated wonder. Right. And then there is the learning sense of wonder.

And we have, through our education system, I'm very passionate about this, we are teaching kids to be test takers, not pathfinders. Because from the moment they get into school, they learn that I am supposed to memorize and regurgitate. And after regurgitating...

I'm now scored on everything that I did wrong. So we are taught, don't fail, don't get anything wrong. And so for 18 years, we create this thing, Mike, and then guess what? Then they go out in the real world where failure is the juice.

Failure's the fuel to success, and we all know this, but we're all going around going, "Let's just keep doing this," and we're standardizing the absolute wonder out of our kids. - I couldn't agree more. - Sorry for the pulpit. - No, no, no, look, I've just been reminded in recent weeks that there's another component of that kind of teaching, that kind of rote memorization,

That's adjacent to performance. That's right. In this world right now, we are desperate for the opposite of a performance. Yes. And yet we are beset with the teleprompter.

We are beset with elected officials who sit down just so and assume just the right posture and in a crisp, well-modulated baritone attempt to read the words before them. And we can all see through it. We all know it's bullshit. It's breaking our hearts. And we're utterly surrounded by it.

Vivek Ramaswamy sat here and said something. This is not a political podcast. By and large, we don't have elected officials on. But I wanted him on because I heard him say something a year and a half ago. He said...

One of the things I'm going to do when I run is a completely transparent podcast every week. I'm going to elevate the fireside chat. Right. I just want people to know where I'm coming from, which I thought was laudable. But then he said, I also vow on your podcast to the world that

to never deliver a speech with a teleprompter. And I thought, if you actually do that, if you some way ascend, part of your success will be tied directly to that. Absolutely. Well, it blows my mind, and I don't want this to come across as haughty in any way, but I give speeches every year to large, large crowds, and there ain't no prompter. No.

At best, I will have an outline on a monitor that I barely look at because it is speaking from the heart informed by the head. It blows my mind. One of the greatest speeches ever given, again, Churchill. You can look it up. He walks in. He's addressing these young men, and he walks up. He says, this is the message. Never, never, never.

never, never give up. And he turned around and walked away. I mean, I think to your point, the world is craving some authenticity. And back to the earlier part of our conversation to not have this fear to do it like everybody else. Why couldn't we have somebody run for office who stands up at a debate and doesn't fall into the

endless insults and accusations. I don't want to offend anybody. I like to provoke. I think provoking is good, by the way. You like to trigger. That's what you want to do. No, I just want to provoke someone to think about this. In this election right now, you are going to see a barrage of insults and accusations. I dare say it is time for a leader to stand up and say, "I'm going to campaign on a vision."

of where I believe we should go. This is where I believe we should go. And this is why I believe we should go there. And this is how I propose we get there.

This is leadership 101. That's just your sentence. That's your sentence turned inside out. Essentially. And you're really hung up on that sentence, dude. Well, I've spent a lot of time. Yeah. Maybe it's the endless promoter I'm trying to, but that's the idea is that if we could have that kind of leadership in America, I think people would begin to follow that. And I don't mean politically. I just mean follow that emotionally and mentally and go, hey, this seems to make sense. And back to the leadership. I mean,

Good leadership at a company is always coming back to that. And you're going, here's where we're going as a company. Here's why we're going there. And here's how we're going to get there. And in that people then choose to follow. And there's a difference between someone showing up to work and someone showing up to follow.

This is masterful stuff. And so anyway, this methodology, by the way, I want to come back to this. This is rooted in some incredible research that a guy by the name of Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, I had to practice that for years. You know, Flo. From the Boston Mihaly's. Yeah, to Chesney High, sure. He has a TED Talk with millions and millions of views. He talks about Flo.

Oh, yes. I know the guy. Back to what we were saying is the reason that I locked in on this methodology is because when I use what I do best to do what I enjoy to produce results that matter to me, here's what happens. I am driven to always be challenged because I want to keep producing that result. And see, we are creatures of progress, Mike. So when we lock into something and we go, I know I'm good at this.

We innately go, I want to be better at it. Back to the whole, if I'm an eight or a nine, gee, what would it look like if I were a 10? And we as humans need that. I believe we are created for progress. In other words, we need challenge. And so the idea behind this methodology is to keep you in a place where in your work life and professional life,

you are always challenged to provide the result that really motivates you a little bit better. So what would you say to the Stoics? Yes. But how would you spin that into advice to somebody who,

I don't know, maybe they're a mason, maybe they're a welder, maybe they're a school teacher. Right. But fundamentally, they get up every day and they do the same basic thing. And they know their work matters. Right. And they are getting the bills paid. That's right. And they do have a passion for it. Right. A four, a five, a six, a seven. Sure, sure. I'm not sure, because these three different wires that you've metaphorically placed inside me, they all...

It seems like on any given day, one will be subordinate to the others. One will be superior. But to the person who is listening to this, who is just feeling disaffected, just like not totally there, but not ready to do a teardown, not ready to quit the pharmaceutical job and start helping people lose weight, but lacking self-confidence.

Right. Is there a tangible thing that you typically recommend? Yeah. I want to start with self-awareness. I want you to take an assessment like this and just see yourself and go, okay, I've just answered. By the way, if you're honest on these assessments, people, it's funny. People go, Ken, this thing read my mail. I go, well, here's the dirty little secret. You just answered the questions. Honestly, I have no magic. There's no magic in this.

So we want to start with self-awareness. We want to start with if you're feeling disaffected, we want to get to the why. What's off? And so we start with, okay, let's look at this methodology and go, where is this off? Let's start there.

And then we're going to go through an exercise of gratitude. There's two G's. I would want them to go through for the Mason. I locked in on that because I worked on the masonry crew when I was a freshman in college between my freshman, sophomore year. Hardest work I ever did in my life. Another brick in the wall. Carry brick tongs on both sides. I had to get there. 50-pound mortar bags.

I weighed a buck 25. I was on a wheelbarrow. You know what a job site looks like. I mean, you talk about a high rope because if you spill the mortar, guess what? You're going to get a lot of crap. They're going to wear me out and I got to go make another barrel. And I'm keeping these masons supplied all day long with bricks and mortar. Awful work.

Worst work of my life, best experience of my life. So I'm passionate about the Mason. So how does the Mason who's disaffected kind of going, where do I fit in this big grand world? Okay. So I think when getting self-aware, they're going to go, you know, I'm really good at, and they're going to begin to see, oh, my brain, there's a reason why I can do this better than Coleman. Coleman's a disaster. If I try to do this quickly, it's a mess. The thing's falling down. It's a disaster.

So we begin to see, okay, I've got some proficiency here. And because I'm proficient here, there's an enjoyment in the efficiency of it. The great masons, by the way, are actually artists. They're artists. They can talk to you. I had this one guy named Moe, and Moe was the foreman. Moe would talk to me with a cigarette in his mouth.

And he just never fell out. He could keep it here and talk to me. And while he's talking to me, he'd be like, Coleman, and the cigarettes are doing this number. And I'm kind of like, is that thing going to fall out? And about day two, you realize this guy could smoke and talk at the same time. And it's amazing. And while he's doing that, he's scooping quickly. And it is a, you've seen it, Mike. It is a fluid. And listen,

Hey. It's conducting. He's conducting. Now, I would submit to you, and these guys would never do this, but if I sat down and interviewed masons, there's something about the efficiency in that that drives them. And I bet you their missional result would be efficiency. They are motivated by the neatness, the effectiveness. And they may not word it that way, but so back to the answer, I would do an exercise of let's focus on, after we get some clarity on who we are,

Then we would go into gratitude. And so what is this masonry job or owning this masonry business allowed you to do? Self-employed, takes care of my family, I'm getting my kid through college. We do need an exercise in gratitude because there's deep meaning, by the way, in what the paycheck provides. Provision is very purposeful, okay? But outside of the provision piece, then we go, how can I give this talent away? I

I think that's really important for the person who feels like got that dirty job that's not sexy and it's not prolific in society. It's not the doctor or the lawyer. We've given too much hype to those positions. We look at that and we go beyond gratitude. We go, all right, how do I gift this? Well, let's look at the reality. We live in a world today, you know this all too well, better than I, where we have a deficit in the trades. And so if I'm a brick mason, I'm going to go, what are the local high schools in my area?

Shop's coming back and I'm going to go talk to the shop teacher. I'm going to go, you got any kids that are struggling in math and science or grammar or history? You just know. Go to the guidance counselor and go, are there any boys in this high school that you know that are never going to darken the door of college unless they've been forced?

They don't belong in a classroom, but they got some manual skill. They've got all that. And that guidance counselor is going to go, yeah, I can tell you about this kid, this kid, this kid. Hey, listen, I'd like to create a work program where they can make a little money or they get paid to come out and learn something or, you know, just get innovative and go. I'd like to find a few of those kids, bring them out on the job site, show them the.

And for some kids, they're going to go, this is hot. It's dirty. This sucks. They have no character. They haven't been raised right. But for a couple, maybe just one, it's going to go. The tuning fork in his chest goes off. And all of a sudden, this kid goes, I kind of dig this. I don't have to wear a shirt and tie. I get to come do my job. I leave on it. And then you say to that kid, you know what I make?

And if you were to come work for me right out of high school, I'll get you started on 401k. My point is you begin to say, how do I gift this craft that makes my heart sing? And I'm not trying to be romantic when I say this, but this is the truth. There are craftsmen who just love the craft. Have you ever advised someone to simply get a hobby? That's also missional.

But separate and apart. Yes. Not vocation. 100%. I have many times on the show, someone will call and they'll go, this is the thing that I really, really love.

And they'll describe that. And it has a tie to their work, but their work isn't giving them that amount of juice. And when I've determined that, hey, this is not necessarily a professional pivot, but we can still get that tuning fork going off in a form of service or a hobby or a side hustle that's not going to break the bank. It's not going to make you rich. But absolutely, volunteerism should not be overlooked. Serving others. You know, if your missional result, by the way, one of the six missional results is service.

And so if you're motivated by stepping in the gap for people, well, man, you can do that in a variety of nonprofits, in ministries. I mean, absolutely. If you're not getting that from your work... The Rotarians, the Jaycees, the Boy Scouts, SkillsUSA, Future Farmers. Yeah, and by the way, I think that's a fix, and I also think it is a bridge. We just described the fix part, okay? If you can't monetize it and make a living off of it, then it becomes an act of service, and it will absolutely fill your soul and really heal your heart.

But I would also say that it's sometimes it's a bridge. And so let's say somebody calls me and they're in one profession and they're going to switch over. Let's say they're an accountant and they want to do, they want to become a physician's assistant. So we've got a four year program there, X amount of dollars, they're a CPA. So I'm going to say, all right, cash, save up, you know, and then go do this program. So in the meantime, why don't you go volunteer for some local veterans and

And where they're getting PT or they're getting some type of medical benefit and you just show up and be around. You can't do the work, but you can volunteer. You can change a bedpan, whatever. Find that thing that, by the way, while I'm suffering in another accounting spreadsheet and I feel like my soul slowly being sucked into the monitor, I am nights and weekends filling my heart back up and keeping my heart.

Does that make sense? It makes total sense. I wish it was more often prescribed because I think part of the war that we've waged on work and at Broadway, not to paint with too broad a brush, we expect so much from our job.

Right. We expect, you know, Taylor's an excellent cameraman, but he would go crazy if that's all he ever did. He edits. Right. Right. And he models you dog, you know, I mean, right. He's ruggedly handsome. Yeah. So you got this toolbox and you get things you get paid a bunch for maybe or maybe less. And it just seems like there's such an emphasis in general on.

to correctly select the vocation that will become all of these different things at the same time. That's a heavy load. Yeah, well, and I'm glad you bring this up because while I believe in this methodology, let me also say that I didn't just get a national show.

I didn't just get a show on Sirius XM and then co-host the second largest radio show in the world with a legend. That doesn't just happen because I'm a good dude and I'm charming and I sold my way into it. I started at the age of 32 from scratch. I thought I was going to go into politics. I lost the fire in the belly for that. And here I am, 32, three kids under the age of three. And I realized that's not the path. What is it? I encountered a moment of profound confusion and frustration.

Eight years from 40, what am I doing? I've been a very ambitious, driven guy, a very clear path to serve people in the area of public policy. Lose the belly, the fire in the belly for that, what next? And so through some self-exploration, I realized that, you know, I've always been a bit of a performer and I love communication. And so I began to put some of these things together and go, is it becoming a pastor like my dad? Absolutely not. Not my call. Missionary? Nope.

keynote speaker gone 180 times a year? No, don't want that. You know, you begin to walk through these things and then realize one night by myself, my wife's out of town and I'm watching Larry King Live, which was one of my all time favorite shows because it was just like this man. And it was dig. And I'm watching him interview Oprah and I'm not going to tell the story, but he basically says at some point, will you ever run for president? And she says, this is a quick version. She says, no way. And he goes, why so certain?

And she says something I'll never forget. Hit me like a bomb. She goes, I can have way more influence, Larry, through my show, through my magazine, through my live events. The minute that I become a public official, it's 50% of the country hates me. And for whatever reason in that moment, the idea of broadcasting hit me and media hit me. And then it was more exploration, two-year process of digging, scared to death. I'm too old to get into media, which I was. A lot of people told me that. But I somehow believed, Mike, that I had the chops, right?

No one was going to give a 32-year-old a shot. No one got up in the morning going, I think that Ken Coleman guy's got some talent. I'm going to give him a break. And so I started out doing every little thing I could do. High school football play-by-play on the internet. The only people listening to that, by the way, Mike, is the kid next to me and my wife, because she's a good lady. I was hosting the Sewanee Town Festival where I live just outside of Atlanta. I introduced a mime. This was the low point of my career. A mime? I introduced a mime.

By the way, you know what I'm talking about. Let me set the scene here. This is a Sewanee Day festival and the chairs are out there and everybody's, no one's paying attention to me. And I'm emceeing it 'cause I'm trying to make connections and get some mic time. And I introduce a mime and, you know, not thinking, I go up to give him a high five and what do you think he does? Leaves me hanging. And I walked off and I went,

Should have seen that coming. Is this something you really think you should be doing? And it was a real low point. A mime is a terrible thing to waste. It is. So, yeah, I knew he was going to say that for some reason. Come on. I set you up for that. There are so many good reasons to drop your current wireless carrier and switch to Pure Talk that I often struggle to decide which one to lead with. But today I'm thinking about the beauty of not having to sign a contract.

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So I tell that story to say that you don't show up where you and I are. There are days in the wilderness and there are going to be some gut check times where you have to ask yourself, am I willing to do what I have to do so that later I get the shot to do what I want to do? That is the key. My favorite listeners make fun of me a lot because I quote Frost often, specifically Way Leads On To Way. Love Frost. Way Leads On To Way. Yeah. You

You know, if you're just on one particular way at one particular time, well, that's where you happen to be at the moment. Yeah. But back to, what did I want to ask you? Oh, you referenced the American dream. Right. And then you talked a lot about vision. And it makes me wonder,

I'm really troubled, and we talked about this before, about the percentage of Americans who believe the American dream is dead. And after riffing on that for a long time, and part of the reason I just did the movie I did, Something to Stand For, was to maybe get permission to weigh in on that conversation. Why a dream? Why isn't it an American vision?

Wouldn't we be better off focusing not on a fantasy or a thing that's rooted in our imagination, but rather something that we know for a fact can exist, a tangible thing that we can take concrete steps toward? Yeah. I think that is the essence of the American dream.

By the way, and no one's more patriotic than me, as I take that stance. Sounded odd, but, you know, I'm very patriotic. But I don't think that what we call the American dream is in fact American.

I think it's human. I just think that we Americans have kind of grabbed onto it because of the founding of our country and the way it all happened. I mean, if you think about the land grab and it was just like, we were going to go and I mean, it's just nuts, but we see this in the, one of my favorite examples of this is the movie far and away with Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman. I think it's one of those beautiful examples of this idea and the human spirit that we all just want a shot to run, throw the stake in the ground and go, this is where I'm going to do my life.

we need to be teaching the uniqueness. See, I think we all long to do something that we consider great. Now, great gets defined however you want to. Okay. But I think that the American dream at its core,

is the unique version of your pursuit of happiness. Meaning your pursuit of happiness is very different than mine. And that's what makes it great. And we are the freest country in the world, always have been, I hope always will be. And that's why people still flock here. There's a caravan heading up right now as we speak. Why? Because they go, this is our pursuit. And when they get here, we'll see what they do. But those who actually want to work and do something,

There is this human dream. It's not an American dream. And what is it? It's to make, I know what you're thinking. I'm not for it, but I'm saying what compels someone?

to leave their country and endure hardship to come to this place. That's what we call the American dream. But what it is, is we just happen to be the greatest society, I believe, in the history of the world that allows a person to make their unique contribution, whatever that looks like. And I think it's alive and well. No caravans leaving, I've noticed. No.

And yet we hear incessant griping about how bad this place is. The worst. The worst, yeah. The worst. It's just the worst. Well, we can't, and this is probably a good place to start to land the plane, but it's like the challenge of the duality and the binary choices we're always confronted with. I really learned promoting this last film that it's very difficult to make a patriotic case for the country without immediately...

as a part of the same sentence, throw in a comma and say, now that's not to say that we're perfect. We still have a long way to go. Why do we have to qualify everything? Because we have to today. Because we have to. Right, I get it. Right, so it's the thing, and I did it earlier without even really meaning to, but when I talk about returning the favor and I talk about the bad rap that selfishness gets, there is within me, and I'm going to take the test in this book to find out whether it's a flaw, an asset,

feature or a bug, but I can't help but to try and find in the argument the immediate counterintuitive thing. Like when you were talking about the importance of a mission, I think you actually said, now, do I want to be a missionary? No, I don't.

I immediately thought in my head, do you want to be a mercenary? Right. Right? That's right. Because the mercenary position and the missionary position, both underrated. There we go. But go back to your single-minded proposition. Your key sentence, there are elements of the mercenary. That's right. And the missionary. No question. And the thing that bugs me and worries me and frustrates me in just about every conversation that I hear in public discourse is that

We always try and eliminate one. And so it screws up our balance. I agree. We celebrate innovation, but we ignore imitation. That's right. And what's the point of being innovative if you can't replicate the thing a billion times? There's no iPhone. This is the world of prototypes. That's exactly right. You know, here's what I'd say. This greatness...

has been bastardized. It's all about clicks and likes and followers. And you interviewed on your show, I keep coming back. Those were great people. They are great. And I think that greatness is achieved only in our uniqueness. And back to the Stoics, this idea of being the best version of you. And what I've set out to do with this simple methodology is allow people to finally go, this is how I'm wired. Now,

what's my unique contribution? And in that, Mike, is the opportunity, you can call it the American dream, but I think to make your great contribution. Ken Coleman doesn't get to tell you what great is for you, but I would submit to you that doing the best you can in the unique way that you can to make a difference in the world while providing for your family and loved ones, that is greatness. You're not going to tell me that some

president of a country is greater than you? No, no. I think greatness is defined by uniqueness. And I'd say this on the secondary piece of this is you heard me say doing work you love to do. The reason I chose the moniker or the label of passion here is I was doing some research, Mike, and I stumbled on the root word of passion. It's pati.

And it means to suffer. Oh, right. Now this is... The passion of the Christ. Yeah. I was gonna say, but this is... I don't want to get too deep, but I think your audience is deep. So I saw that and I went, "That's the word I want to use for describing the work you love." Now let me explain this: to suffer. So John 3:16, God loves the world so much that He gave His Son, He suffers that, Jesus suffers on the cross from a religious perspective, as a husband.

I have and would suffer for my wife. I would suffer pain, all kinds of... I'd suffer death for my kids, my wife. I really would. Suffer the little children. Yeah. Great men and women suffer through failure, through rejection. That's suffering.

And so you look at success in life, success is only an outcome of suffering on some level. If I use the word suffering as a, I am going to go through some type of pain, whether it be mental, physical, or emotional pain, and I will endure the suffering because I believe on the other side of suffering, the outcome is worth it. And you look at the mangled hands and fingers of true craftsmen.

That's suffering, am I right? Absolutely. I gotta jump in here because one, they have to catch a flight, so... Oh, okay. We've only got about 12 more minutes. Okay, good. But I want to tell you that, I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but I have a boss who threatens to fire me all the time. I wasn't gonna say it by name, but anyway, I did your career assessment. I did the thing. Oh, let's go through it. I did it. If you want to. Go ahead. No, no, I don't need to take over. No, no. But that suffering thing, boy...

When you can find a result in the world of work that you're willing to suffer for. Oh, yeah. I mean, if I were to just simplify it to that. Well, I want to hear what you learned about yourself. But I also want to point out that the example you sent me was Dave Ramsey, your boss. That's right. Answering over 100 questions as candidly as he could. It's a deep dive, yeah. It's a deep dive.

Yeah. It's not for the faint of heart. It probably should be a little bit shorter than it is, but this is the first version and I wanted people... Just like this podcast. Absolutely. Here's the point. It's going to take you 15, 18 minutes, but I think it is so vital because... It took me two days. Oh, wow. Well, let me just say, no, that I got about three quarters of the way through it last night and then I got called away to do something. When I came back to it, it sort of bumped me back to like 10%. Oh, I apologize. I don't know why, but... It's called suffering.

deal with it. I want to make you suffer. Okay, this is fun. So can we go through your top three talents? This is what Chuck does best.

By the way, this is going to be enlightening because we're going to find out real time if you think Chuck is being honest with himself. Yeah, because I'm not sure I am either, just based on my answers. Well, we're actually going to coach you through this. Go ahead. What I do best, and my number one talent is connection. Okay. Connection. Number two talent is instruction. Okay. And number three is... That's a good sign. Number three is compassion. Compassion. All right. Now, do you have some doubt on any one of those answers?

Sounds like you did. You were a little bit like, is this true? Because Mike's going to be able to validate this. But did you agree with those results? Actually, these three, the compassion one kind of took me by surprise. All right. So it's the guy who wrote this. I use the word compassion as a talent because this is the person who has the natural antenna when they walk in the room.

to see suffering, to see someone who needs a little bit of help. You see things that maybe someone who doesn't have that natural giftedness doesn't see. Does that feel right to you? That feels right to me. Does that feel right to you? On the phone with you a week ago, watching the news, you said, Mike, I'm crying. I don't know why I'm crying. I'm watching the live event outside of Butler, and I'm thinking about our country, and I'm crying. I wasn't.

I wasn't crying. I was angry. You were angry, yeah. You were crying. And so that is a... You have a deep, deep heart talent of...

You're gonna make me cry. That would have been so delicious had he actually cried. Okay, so let's go. So you got that. Now let's go. Now he laughed. Mike audibly laughed when you said your second talent was instructions. Absolutely. So tell the audience why. Home run. Home run. Home run. This is it. He's showing you all the time. All the time. Chuck gets satisfaction and comfort in life from executing plans. He follows instructions. Right.

He follows recipes. He follows a schedule. If it's written, so let it be written, so let it be done. And you actually have a talent at showing people.

Which, by the way, I'm going to show you something I think is kind of fun. Okay. I think there's a deep tie between compassion and instruction. Absolutely. Because you have to have the patience, the heart to go, I'm going to show you, Mike, for the 17th time, how to tie your shoes. He's taught VO. Yeah. He's taught VO for 30 years. Okay, that's an example. And you need compassion because none of your students have ever amounted to anything. By the way...

To tie it all in, you said your number one was connection. Connection, yeah. So by the way, a deep tie again between connection and compassion. Art Linkletter, I said, and Mike's good at this, Mike's good at connecting with anybody. Yeah. But there's a difference between the ability to just connect and then to go, it is my compassion, the talent of compassion that allows me to go really deep with somebody. Yeah. Okay, so fun. We've got to keep moving. Yep. All right, so top three passions, again, for the audience. This is the work of...

that you really enjoy? Like this work, you lose track of time, you look forward to it. What are the top three? Number one, promoting. Okay, I'll explain. So again, there's your confirmation. All right, next. Let's see. Advocating. Okay. And number three, protecting. Okay. So did any of those throw you off? I bet I can guess which one did. Did it throw you off or you totally got it? Because by the way... Protecting, I guess, was the one that threw me off. And this is actually a good promotion and explanation for the product.

When you create an assessment, and I actually, I wrote everything in this. I worked on it for years. How do you choose one word to describe a talent or a passion? So I did my best. And so protecting usually means to somebody,

a policeman, a firefighter, security guard. Okay. And I think that's why that's throwing you. Am I right? Am I reading your mail? Okay. Sure. When you actually read the paragraph describing protecting, I'd like you to do it because I think it's going to land the plane here. I want you to read the first couple sentences of how I describe the actual passion of protecting. The passion summary. Is that what you mean? The passion summary. Okay.

Yeah, you're passionate about defending the vulnerable and shielding people from danger. Your deep desire is to make sure the people, things, or causes you care about are safe and protected. You're highly aware of potential threats and work hard to diminish those threats. Okay, I'm cutting off. So see, that's not in his application, knowing what we already know. He's got the deep talent of connection.

instruction and compassion. The protecting piece is protecting the process, the integrity of what you're teaching. There's a deep care there. That's all that means, right? You want to make sure it's taught the right way. Is that starting to resonate with you? Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense. Because it rhymes with instruction. It rhymes with rigor, protocol. You see the tie? Yeah, absolutely. So all of this is, again, and what did you say the other two passages? The number two was advocating. Same deal. And the number one is promoting. So advocating for you...

is, again, advocating for the student, advocating for that learner. You know, "Well, here's what's right." Hey, listen, I believe you can do this. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, no, totally. And you're advocating to them, for them. There's really tight ends. So this is fun. I think I know what your missional result is, and I'm going to try to guess it, because this could go any way. By the way, there's no rhyme or reason to this. This is all so unique. I'm going to say that it is service. Well, you nailed it! Yeah.

I could have told you that. Of course you could. I've known him 43 years. Well, explain it. Well... How is he so motivated by service? How do you see that playing out? In the literal sense, he and some church friends went down to New Orleans shortly after Katrina and volunteered in the most literal kind of service. Yeah, absolutely. Which is also...

That's exactly right. So you've created in the last couple of years a routine that I actually kind of envy because I don't have one in my life. My life is chaos. My brand is chaos. But you, on a Sunday, you'll go to the church. You'll play the Frisbee golf. You'll play the disc golf. When the hockey's in season, you're there with regularity. You're a fan of things slash music.

which I believe is another word for advocate. That's exactly what it is. You're an advocate for your teams. You're an advocate for your friends. You're an advocate for me. You're an advocate for this podcast. Totally. Another way of connecting. That's exactly right. You might care more about this podcast than I do. I think I do. Which frightens me because I care about it a lot. Right. But...

I got lots of plates. Right. One of the words that we didn't talk about was promoting. That's the one he laughed at. He laughed again because that was the one where Mike went, oh my gosh. And again, you hear the word promoting. That doesn't mean that you're some huckster salesperson. Not at all. I'm actually using, you know this about me. I try to use the pure form of the word and I went, this passion is actually about lifting. It's boosterism. Boost. That's a great word. It's a lifting. You desire to lift. How many people did you take to see something to stand for?

20, about 20, in two different times. I mean, listen, and you're working so closely with it. This is above and beyond. So thanks for going through that. Sorry, and just the thing that came to my mind for promoting is every time I get in an Uber, I go, hey, do you like podcasts? Before we get to my destination, we're listening to an episode of this podcast. Another version of this, a person who loves promoting could be a person that is constantly going, hey, have you read this book? Have you taken this vitamin? It is a desire to promote good.

Remember, this is all in the context of good. And so, by the way, one other quick thing I would say, this is the, we just went through the top outputs. What I'm proud of with this assessment is that in your report, you will also see

the talents, the passions, and the missional results where you are below average. Then I do this on purpose because I believe in, let's be aware, because here's the deal. If you aren't spending 75% of your day in that purpose statement that we just went through, let me tell you something. It will begin to affect you mentally and emotionally and eventually physically. And we cannot suffer at work in a negative way and go home and think we're not dragging us with us.

And that's why I'm so passionate about this, Mike, is because the average American spends 90,000 plus hours at work in their lifetime. I'd make it simple and go, it's a third of your life. Because you sleep, you work, and then whatever's left with friends, family, food, hobbies. Can't imagine going through life, spending a third of it. Of your conscious hours. With zero meaning. No. Where you are essentially just trying to survive.

And so that's my mission on this deal. Thanks for sharing that. That's a neat trick. No, that was really cool. Well, it's all you. Again, there's no trick to it. All I've done is come up with that three-part, I believe in those wires, I believe in their connectedness. And by the way, if we were teaching this in schools, we wouldn't have kids going to five and six years of college because we could try some stuff.

We could learn early on. I don't believe every 18-year-old can know their direction, but I do believe you can know your wiring, which then informs the process. That's what I'm about. Totally down with it. I'm all about, with regard to connections, you not missing yours. I know. We've got to go. This is too much fun. The book by Ken Coleman is called Find the Work You're Wired Into.

to do in the book is a survey I encourage you to take. It's going to take you about 15, 18 minutes, over 100 questions or so. Be honest with yourself, and you'll start learning just like our friend Chuck did right here. Look at that. There's a glow of awareness over top of his head right now. That's actually high blood pressure, Ken. But listen, that's something else you'll learn about later. Don't miss your flight. Thank you, sir. It's really been a pleasure to get to know you. And I'm grateful that you just went through the stoic

crucible of getting to Sodom, or is it Gomorrah? LA is Sodom. I live up in Gomorrah. You're going back to Nashville, which is Nirvana. Where we're free. I will say that. Why don't you just rub it in a little bit? Hey, man, we'd love to have you there. And you're going to save on your taxes, too. No state income tax. I would only say this. Don't come if you're not going to vote the way we vote. There's a reason why people want to come to Nashville right now.

That's all I want to say. A little public service announcement. And that's as political as things get on the way I heard it, my friends. We'll see you next week. Ken Coleman, website real quick. KenColeman.com. Okay, and on the radio, how do they find you? The Ken Coleman Show everywhere. YouTube, podcast, SiriusXM. You have managed to get your name on freaking everything, dude. Congratulations on that. I have a massive ego. Thanks, man. Anytime. See you, bud.

If you like what you heard, and even if you don't, won't you please, won't you please, pretty please, pretty please, subscribe! Well I hate to beg and I hate to plead, but please, pretty frickin' please, please sub, please subscribe!

Hey moms, looking for some lighthearted guidance on this crazy journey we call parenting? Join me, Sabrina Kohlberg. And me, Andy Mitchell, for Pop Culture Moms. Where each week we talk about what we're watching. And examine our favorite pop culture moms up close to try to pick up some parenting hacks along the way. Come laugh, learn, and grow with us as we look for the best tips. And maybe a few what not to do's from our favorite fiction.

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