399: I Thought There’d be More Plumes with Jason Alexander
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Hello, friends. This is The Way I Heard It, and I'm Mike Rowe, and my guest today is Jason Alexander. Woo! What a nice guy. Super nice guy. Annoyingly nice guy, actually. I was pissed off by the end of it. The more I think about it, the angrier I get. He was thoughtful. He was funny. He was generous with his time, insightful in his observations. Opened up about his personal life and stuff. Real pain in the ass. I'm telling you.

This is the second time I've met Jason Alexander. I was on his podcast a couple of months ago with our friend Peter Tilden, who's been on this podcast. And if it sounds a bit incestuous, well, that's one of the first things we talk about. The strange world of podcastlandia and why. A man like Jason Alexander, a Tony Award winning thespian and strategist.

George Costanza, for crying out loud. He's done everything you really can hope to do in this industry. And now he has a podcast and he's having a ball. Yeah. And he's working with his best friend. The parallels are very similar between our podcast and their podcast. Even if our careers are not. That's correct. Yes. There's a lot of similarity. I didn't realize he was really such a

such a voice in theater. Oh yeah. I quickly did some research and reconnected the dots and like, so we spend, uh,

a fair amount of time just reminiscing about some of the greatest Broadway shows ever written. And he's encyclopedic with it. Well, he was in one of the greatest Broadway shows that I love and adore that was very unsuccessful when it first came out, and that was Merrily We Roll Along. But if you get this album and listen to he and the other cast members,

sing this song. And he told us afterwards that they recorded that song the day after the show closed. And it closed in like just a few days or something like that. And so it's raw with emotion, but it is such a great musical. I just love that show. It affected me deeply when I saw it. Yeah, me too. And look,

Look, my favorite part of this conversation is that we make this point a lot here. You know, one of my great good fortunes with Dirty Jobs was that I didn't play a character. For better or worse, I played me and I still am. Jason Alexander is not George Costanza. Right. At all. Not even remotely. And it takes a hot minute to really understand that because he still looks a lot more...

lot like George Costanza. And he's so seared into our collective retina as that character. This is an obvious thing to say, but I'm just sharing it with you because it really is a kick to sit three feet across from a guy you grew up watching and have the kind of conversation you're about to hear. It's called I Thought There'd Be More Plumes.

Because the show that you starred in, Chuck, many years ago, was the show that really hooked Jason and dragged him into this business. And I'm not going to tell you what it is right now because I've already said too much, but the show had a huge impact on me too. And so this is one of my favorite lines from that show. You'll hear it come up organically momentarily. I thought there'd be more.

Plumes. It's a great title. All modesty aside, actually there's no modesty required. I didn't come up with it. I just repeated it.

I was just going to say that the audience needs to stick in to the very end on this because it goes deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper as it goes along this conversation. I didn't want to pry, but I was curious. You didn't need to. I didn't need to. It's really, this is one of the most accessible, transparent, funny, smart, and insightful actors you're ever going to hear from. I'm not just blowing smoke. It was a great conversation and I promise you,

you're going to love getting to know Jason Alexander. You think you might already. I bet you don't. We'll prove all that right after this. I believe it was George Gershwin who wrote the immortal word, summertime and the living is easy.

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I assume we're rolling or something like it? We are rolling, so don't say anything really, really bad. Oh, you're shooting from my good side. We shoot from all sides. Yeah.

Damn nice of you to do this. Thank you. My pleasure. Nice to come down to Santa Monica. I don't get down here all that often, but I guess. Do you feel like this whole pod, we call it podcastlandia. Yeah. Because it's somewhere between, it's not yet become the totally cold hearted calculus of show business, but nor is it Narnia. Right. Right. So it's, you know, why are you in this space and are you having a good time?

The answer to the first half has all to do with Peter Tilden, who could probably incite me to murder if he really put his mind to it. It should be said, sat where you sat not three and a half months ago. Absolutely. And we had a time. Yeah. Well, as you know, he's an extraordinary guy and fascinating. And I met Peter by going on his radio show in 1992, three, maybe, for a morning drive interview. And we hit it off, went out to breakfast after that.

And he said, when you're done in Seinfeld, I got your next TV show. And he pitched me what became Bob Patterson. And I was laughing my ass off. And we became the best of friends. And most of my solo creative ventures, he's been a creative part of. You know, he ended his radio career. And he said, I feel like I'm not done. I never got to do what I wanted to do. He's a great interviewer.

And he said, would you do a podcast with me? I said, what is that? I have no idea what a podcast is. And he said, we're going to talk. And he based it on this thing that was really us, which was we would go on these car rides and this always made him happy. And some maniac would do something that was crazy on the road. And instead of road rage, I would go to really crazy.

Really? Really? And he thought that was the funniest reaction to unexplainable things. And so the show became really no, really. It was just things that we would hear about that he and I would have been talking about anyway. And he said, maybe there's something in that. And I said, look, I've got some time.

I don't want to lift a finger for this. You tell me what you need me to do and I'll show up and do it. He does all the research. He does all the booking. He sends me some articles the night before. I read them. I compile a bunch of BS questions and I go in. But the reason I'm still there is I'm having a blast. We are meeting...

fascinating people. I am really learning something in every episode and I'm hanging out with my buddy and so it's been a complete joy but if you ask me to articulate anything about the world of podcast I would be the least articulate guy because I don't

really follow anything else. And I don't know even how we are doing. I have no idea. Every now and then I read some lovely comments. Somebody's listening. Call iHeart and ask them. Because they will tell you. They will absolutely tell us. And they know. It should be said, too, that in another active, just unimaginable, unscriptable triangulation, back when you and Peter were driving along saying, really, he was writing ads and

And Chuck was reading some of those ads with your friend, this case on erectile dysfunction. Oh, yeah. Which I understand you'd be the go-to guy. Oh, of course. Yeah. I know everything you need to know about it. I'm not at liberty to discuss it, but... But if you need to hang a wet towel somewhere... Yeah, I can help you. There you go. So...

I heard him on the radio years ago, my buddy Chuck, who I've known as long as you've known Peter's doing these ads that this guy, Peter wrote. And then for similar reasons, he and I sort of Forrest Gumped our way into, well, everybody's doing a podcast. It'd be rude not to. Right. And then we're doing one and then Peter's sitting there and then I'm on your podcast and then we meet and now you're coming from your workout here and merrily we roll along. And there we go. Well,

Which was shit when I did it and fantastic when I didn't. Which is the story of my life. How early in your theatrical career was that? Oh, my God. That was a big surprise kicker-offer. So when I decided, boy, I'd like to pursue this acting thing, it's because I was growing up in New Jersey. I fell in with the theater kids. We would go over the river every weekend and go see Broadway shows because it was like a buck to stand in the back if you were a student.

And I got it into my head that I would really love to work in the theater in New York. That was my end all be all. And I was really, I thought, realistic about that ambition thinking, well, you know, just do that. I'll have to bum around in stock shows or touring companies for maybe by the time I'm in my mid to late 30s, I might get something on Broadway.

Merrily We Roll Along was 1980, 81. I was 19 when I booked it, and I was 20 when I performed it. Jesus. Wow. And that was the first one? Yeah. I mean, I had been doing commercials. I had done a little bit of small television projects, but it was a very young, unestablished career. And then...

that just leapt out of nowhere. And I kind of know why I got it. They had it in their head, I mean, in that initial production, because the main characters de-age, the show goes backwards. So they start in their 40s and they wind up in their early 20s. And Hal Prince wanted the end of the show to resonate in a way that the rest of the show didn't. He wanted the audience to understand the purity of the goals and the ambitions of these young people. So he decided he would create it as if it was a school production that was all being performed by kids.

He really wanted everybody to be between 13 and 18 years old. There were many of us that had creeped a little beyond that. I think the oldest member of the company was 24. Genius, by the way. Al Pruitt. Absolutely. But I got cast as the oldest character in the show, a guy sort of a Mike Todd-like producer.

who de-ages from 65 to 45 over the course of the show. And I had, you know, I grew up on Jackie Gleason and Zero Mostel and I knew what those sort of oversized New York types looked like. And at 17, I started losing my hair. So by 20...

I had a good little bald spot going up there. And he went, I got a kid that's going bald. This is gold, Jerry. I bet you. And so, you know, that was surely part of the alchemy that got me the job. But yeah, so at 20, I made the Broadway debut. So what was the show that first made you go, huh? The one? Yeah. Yeah, I know it extremely well.

So for a number of reasons, I was really focused on magic as a kid. I really loved magic and I was kind of serious about it. And I read and I studied and I was doing little magic shows and I was thinking, oh, I'm going to be a magician. And I was very interested in close up magic.

I wanted the magic to be in my hands, not in the box. And I went to Tannen's magic camp in New York City. The biggest. Yeah, when I was 12 years old. And the magician in residence looked at my hands and went...

Not for you. Because you can't palm a card. I can't palm a card. I have really small hands. And to this day, a standard-sized playing... There are specialty-cut cards now that I probably have worked with, but a standard playing card, if I go to palm it, there's a corner peeking out somewhere. And around the same time, I was dealing with the theater kids and going to the theater. So in 1972 or 3 is when Pippin...

started on Broadway. And I had never seen magic incorporated into storytelling in anything.

And if you saw the original production of Pippin, the curtain goes up and there's a wall of smoke and these disembodied hands are moving about in the smoke. And then Ben Vereen comes in and goes, join us. And there's magic tricks. To flour, leave your cheese to sour. And literally when he came through and did that and these hands started to morph into bodies and they're singing, we've got magic to do. I went, ha!

I want to be Ben Vereen. I could be Ben Vereen. And it struck me as I was sitting there, and I know this sounds like moron now, but it never occurred to me that the whole damn thing is an illusion. We're sitting there, we're looking into a black box, and we're going on these rides. We're believing everything. Oh, this guy is not that guy. He's the king of Athens now. And we're, you know, and these amazing illusions. And I went, ah.

I could do this. I could make this illusion, I think. And that was it. And I went to see Pippin over 20 times as I was growing up and put all my eggs in that basket. I came home from Pippin, and two weeks later, I was in both voice lessons and dance lessons. Wow. So that was the, this is the toolbox I need. Yeah.

I'm going to fill it. So dance, singing. Yeah, whatever. Whatever. It was also, you know, as a kid doing school theater, you're doing a lot of musicals. Was there a teacher in your world who was... So my high school teacher was a guy named Bob Lampf. L-A-M-P-F. Why? I don't know. From the Boston Lamps. Yeah, right. I'd like to find a foul, Bob. Bob and I are still friends to this day. Bob was...

You know, he did all the dramas at the high school. And as I was in junior high looking at the high school, he had a number of really talented kids. So some of those shows were really quite good. And I was already in awe of him by the time I got there. And he took me under his wing. I got a lot of great roles. But more importantly, he actually made me start directing stuff. And he said, you're going to be one of those guys. He just said it. He said, you're going to be one of the talents that makes it.

And that was the wind beneath my wings. Did you believe him? Yes and no. What I have discovered through 40 years of therapy. So my real name is J. Scott Greenspan. And there is a J. Scott Greenspan who invented a Jason Alexander. The Jason Alexander part of me had to believe him because it's the only way I could survive. If I didn't hold the idea that I can do this...

I was going to crumble because Jay Greenspan was a brittle, scared, feeling very unworthy child. Never enough. And so he compensated and what some would say overcompensated by creating this avatar of Jason Alexander who believed he was unstoppable.

And it was a false persona, a false avatar that I've done literally over 40 years, have tried to understand how they speak to each other and where the truth of who I am and what I can be is somewhere in that beautiful alchemy. But for the longest time, they really were separate entities. So did I believe him? Jason did. Jay was like, he's out of his mind. Wow.

That's amazing, really. I mean, but the whole bridge between an aspiring magician and Ben Vereen's opening number. Yeah. That's great. I saw the cockpit in the court did Pippin in the very early 80s. Yeah. It had a similar effect on me. There was just something so naughty about it.

and human about it. Chuck actually played Pippin where you went to school. Really? Yeah, at Towson State University. I wasn't a student there, but I don't know. I auditioned for it and they gave me the role. What's so deceptive about that show, and it's, again, part of my life journey, is I was initially drawn to it for the spectacle of it, the sexiness of it, the very sexy. Very sexy. And I kind of thought Pippin was a peripheral character. I was all about the players and everything.

But what that show does in this really kind of quiet, beautiful way, when you get old enough to appreciate it, is here's a guy that comes out and goes, I'm extraordinary. Yeah. I'm born into privilege. I'm born into wealth. I have a gorgeous mind. I have every resource in the world. I must do something extraordinary with it. That is my calling. And at the end of the day, he goes, you know, I've never been happier.

quietly happier than when I work on this farm with this woman that I love and this child. But can I really live that life? Right. That's not an extraordinary life. And he...

in the play it says he compromises, but what he says is, I don't feel like I've compromised, but I don't know what this is. And isn't that, that was in the seventies, right? That this came out. So it's like, what a message that was. It's totally counter the counterculture. You bet. Which is all about getting ahead and driving and working, you know, the me generation. Yeah. So it's been a seminal show for me always, because that is also the part of the 40 years of therapy lesson is

I don't think you can tell this to somebody under age 40, that those really high, high, high highs that you're looking for, they're great. They're really tasty, but they burn out really quick. And then comparatively, you fall way below the median line and things get really dark and unhappy and you sit in that grist and that stew and you're miserable.

is that kind of beautiful, quiet, warm glow right down the middle. It doesn't burn really hot, but it's consistent and it's a nice place to live. It's like, how many times do we have to learn that lesson? How many different operas have to be written? Yeah. I mean, all of the epics, all of the great, the hero's journey, but just the witticisms and the platitudes, the grass is always greener. Yeah. That's what Pippin is. Right. Right? Absolutely. Like at the very end when he's,

I wanted this, I wanted that, Mirages to Touch. Right. Magic shows and miracles. I thought it was there, it always was here. I mean, that was Rubenstein, right? You betcha. Rubenstein, followed by one of my favorite musical theater actors, a guy named Michael Rupert.

And like I said, I saw it 20 times. So every time the cast would change, I would go back and see what they were doing. Did it make you nervous when the cast changed? No. And there were some wonderful men that replaced Ben Vereen, but nobody replaced Ben Vereen. I mean, Ben was so uniquely part of that role. His DNA infuses that role. And even Petrina Miller, who did it in the last version where she was the leading player, you can see she looked at the tapes. Quick sidebar. In his opening song. Yeah.

He's addressing the audience in a way that I had never seen happen, like maybe in Our Town and the Fantastics, right? But there's a line that he sings, sit where everybody can see. And he looked at, the performer looked at me when he said it, and I was craning my head around a giant dude who was sitting in front of me.

And in that moment, Jay, I don't know if it's just this weird mix of intimacy and verisimilitude, but I thought that he had made that up, found me, and gave me permission to change seats, and I did. I got up and I changed my seat when the guy playing, the main players, "Sit where everybody can see," and he's looking at me.

And I was like, this is very true. He just told me. It would be rude not to. You know, I'll give you one little side anecdote about Ben. It's not my story. It's LeVar Burton's story. But LeVar went to see, same story. He went to see it as a young guy. And he was so exalted by what Ben had done. And he goes to the stage door. And he's a young kid. He's 18, 17. He wants to talk to Ben. He doesn't know what he wants to say. And it's a matinee. And Ben is signing autographs, taking photos. And he's...

He starts to walk away and LeVar is like jammed. He doesn't know what he's... And he said, "Ben must have felt my eyes on him." And he turned back around as he was walking away and he said, "Did you want to say something to me?" And LeVar said, "I don't know where this came from, but I walked up to him and said, 'Mr. Vereen, my name is LeVar Burton and I'm going to be an actor one day and we're going to work together.'" Wow. And he said, "Now, Ben could have said anything. He could have said, 'Well, great. Good luck.'" He could have just taken it in stride. And I'm sure you hear stuff like that all the time.

And he said, instead, Ben put his hands on his shoulders, looked him in the eye, the way he had that experience with you, and he said, Mr. Burton, I will look forward to that day. Less than a year later, they're doing Roots together. Oh, my God. Unbelievable. Yeah. Ben just, there's something about, he's a little bit of a friend, you know, these days. How old is he now? He's 80, 80-something. Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-

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What a blessing, Jason. I mean, that's just... I mean, because here, to think about the impact that guy had on your life and to now be able to just pick up the phone and give him a call. And I know, I've talked to dozens of actors who saw him do that and that was the one that flipped me over. And by way of contrast, do you remember his show?

I think it was called Ten Speed and Brown Shoe. Oh, yeah, sure. Sure, I do. Yeah. I'm trying to remember who his sidekick was in that. Could it have been like Jeff Goldblum? Yes. Was it Jeff Goldblum? I think it was Jeff Goldblum. That's right. I think you're right. The reason I remember this, and this is totally inappropriate, my old girlfriend and I were at her house, Lola, years ago. Oh, okay.

And her dad is turning the channel. He said, I saw this show and I really like it. I can't remember what channel it's on. And I said, what's it called? And he said, it's called 10 Speed and Brown Boy. Oh! And I said, what? Really? Ha!

That doesn't seem possible. And Lola was so embarrassed. Wow. And then it was like, oh, man, that's Ben Perino. Yeah, that ain't right. But anyhow, things just go so wide so quick. You bet. You know? What did you do or think when Sondheim died? There's so many things. So many things. I knew that he was, you know, writing a couple of different things. I knew that...

He was working on the piece with David Ives. But I also knew that there was still an ongoing development of what has been called wise guys or bounce, you know. I'm going to answer the question this way. When Steve turned 70 or 75, there was a profile of him in the New York Times magazine. And he had had a string of, you know, projects that didn't go or something got kind of crapped on and

He was saying in the article, "I think my time is done. I think what I've had to say is done and there's not really a place for me and the theater has moved beyond me." I've had such an interesting relationship with Steve in that I could never get over being a 19-year-old boy going, "Holy crap, that's Steven Sondheim." He couldn't have been nicer. He couldn't have been more inviting and generous and I did a couple things with him over the years, but it was still someone I stood in awe of all the time. But I wrote him a letter.

And I said, "Hey, Steve, I saw your interview in the Times. So just anecdotally, I want to tell you, I have a 10-year-old son, Gabe. He probably knows a fifth of your canon by heart. And the only reason he doesn't know the other four fifths is he's only 10. It's a little sophisticated for him. But I guarantee you, he will know the entire Stephen Sondheim oeuvre by the time he has doubled his age. And your music speaks to him. I don't think your time is over."

by a long shot. I said, so I'm going to quote to you some lyrics from a great man of the theater who wrote, anything you do, let it come from you. Then it will be new. Give us more to see. Which, of course, was written by Stephen Sondheim in Sunday in the Park with George. Maybe his greatest. Maybe? Absolutely. And he wrote back a letter that I have framed in the library of my house. And it's just a beautiful letter.

And that was what I thought was, I thought he was going to give us more to see. I really did. I thought there was more there. His wisdom continued to grow. His ability to observe and understand continued to grow. And I thought, man, that's a voice we really lost. Then I also thought, I can't believe I got to know him. I'm in that club. And then the third thing I thought was, I wish I knew him better. He offered that, and I just, again...

Jason Alexander might have taken it, but I was very much J. Scott Greenspan going, I can't talk to Stephen Sondheim. I'm not worthy. So I missed it. I missed it. I posted a short, oh, well, you'll know it. It was from Merrily We Roll Along. It was George Hearn singing We Had a Good Thing. Oh, yeah. I think it's underrated in general. For me, Sondheim was so, I don't know, what's the word?

He wrote melodies that sounded as if they'd been around forever already, but not simple. No. I mean, you just said sophisticated in some ways. Like it took me a while to listen to that song before the melody stuck in my head. Sure. Very otherworldly, really. Steve was able to fire on so many levels when he was creating. I mean, I've told this little anecdote before, but when we were doing Merrily,

He was still writing as we were going. And he was in the process of writing a song at Open Act 2 called It's a Hit. And he came to me and he said, hey, I'm working on this song and you're going to factor into it in a significant way. Is there anything I don't know about your voice? You know, like, do you have a range or is there? And I said, no, I don't. I think you probably know my voice. I said, if you're really asking...

I have a problem with my ear. I don't hear sharps and flats very well. Chromatic scales, I don't hear them very well. And he went, oh, that's good to know. Good to know. Yeah. And he comes back three or four days later, and he plays for me my part in It's a Hit, which is nothing but chromatics.

I mean, I can still do it. It's like, hold it, folks, there's still the reviews left, both the grip and the news left early, silly. I mean, you couldn't, every note is a half-step chromatic, right? And he plays it, and I turn white, and, you know, I go, how am I, how am I, how am I? Steve, I don't know, I may have misspoke, or maybe you misheard, but I said, I don't hear chromatics very well, and he went, yeah, you have to learn. So he wrote this fantastic character piece of music,

inside this giant little opus of a song and threw in a bar for me to jump over at the same time. And, you know, that was Steve. He could write mathematically. He could write emotionally. He could write as a character. He could write as a dramaturg. There was no approach point to a piece of creation that he couldn't navigate. And I've never met any other composer like that.

So that was what was so interesting. And he would abandon embraceable melody for what he thought was the tonality of the piece or the identity of the character. And this is the way. So you get to Sunday in the Park. I remember sitting at Sunday in the Park for the third or fourth time I was watching it. And we got to intermission and, you know, a bridge and tunnel lady behind me went,

It all sounds the same. Is the second part like it? And I turned around and went, yeah, you should leave. It's all the same. It's the same. Because she wasn't understanding he's doing with music what Surratt was doing with paint. He's painting in points and making those points blend into something lush. And she just, you know. Didn't get it. Couldn't get it. Do you think that

She was done sort of an unintentional disservice, maybe, by what became the classic songbook or the standards, Oklahoma Carousel. We kind of trained the audience, in a way, to be able to leave the theater singing one of the songs. Well, that was true. I don't think that's been true since the late 70s. When musical theater, with the advent of Rogers and Kern and those guys, Showboat, those days...

popular music was coming out of the Broadway theater. Now, it used to be just Tin Pan Alley reviews and so that trope, but to be able to tell a story in a musical theater setting and still have songs come out of the storytelling and stand on their own was very much a big deal all the way through the end of the 70s. And somewhere in the 80s, they went,

I don't care if you can't hum this damn thing when you get out of here. This is the right song for the show. So there are scores that I've heard that are stunning. And you go, there's not anything I can lift out of here. If I sing this on its own, it's on a radio, it's not going to fly. Do you think there's some sort of parallel to be made between the way...

musical theater evolved, 30s and 40s up through current day, with the way sitcoms have evolved in the way that maybe something that

always seemed to present a moral, something that always seemed to be fairly one-dimensional on its face, right? Morphed into like the irony of the show that made you truly famous and some of those other things. I was just thinking about it the other day and wondering if these different media influence each other in some way. Well, here's what I think they all share. The people that

create them and make their way in them, there's two phases, three phases. The creation, where everybody goes, oh, I see what that is. Oh, we could do that. The sustenance, the sucking out the nectar, where everybody goes, okay, so cheers works. Let's do a restaurant. Let's do an office. Let's do a bar and get the same formula. And because we see where the sweet spot is, let's savor it. Let's get the nectar out of there.

And then the third phase is, let's innovate again. So what happened to me in sitcom, I caught the beginning of the wave that has led to the best comedy being "The Bear." And if you watch most episodes of "The Bear," you go, "Is this funny?" I'm like stressed out of my mind watching this. This is really tough stuff. Where now in popular television comedy or the stuff that's being written about that is sort of leading the creative wave,

The laugh is not the important thing. The joke is not the important thing. There's a madness to it. It's exploring the madness of modern life.

Seinfeld started to touch on that, but with a comedian sense of where's the joke. So we nudged it forward in an interesting time. We, I had nothing to do with it. The guys nudged it forward and I went for the ride. You had something to do with it. You might have been there. But I think that happens in all art forms. I think there's an innovation and then everybody goes, I can do that. And they do do that. And you get some very interesting variations on a theme. And then everybody gets tired of doing that.

And what I'm waiting for in musical theater in New York is to stop doing a sideways movie. Stop looking to popular films or pop culture to create the next thing. So I was just talking to a producer friend yesterday who's got a musical that's just about to go into production about Louis Armstrong.

And I go, fantastic. That sounds great. Didn't come from a movie. Oh, that's fantastic. And yet it's a true story. It's a real story. I can see where your source material is.

But you're creating something new. So, yeah, sitcoms in particular. Well, as we started, we're talking about podcasting. Yeah. You know, somebody had an idea. They went, let's have a celebrity. Talk to a celebrity. Let's have lots of, look what we're doing. You know? And there's a proliferation of that. And then we are all sitting here going, okay, what is this podcasting thing going to become? What's it really going to become? Is it going to become a substitute for literature?

Is it going to become a substitute for what we think of as television or news and information? Where is it? Because right now, for the most part, and I include you and me and all our wonderful colleagues, for the most part, we are doing some hodgepodge of filler, a brew of entertainment, human interest, and a little bit of news and information that

And there's a shit ton of it. Nobody knows. It's amazing. Yeah. I'm wondering when somebody's going to draw a line between a Sondheim and a Larry David to a Joe Rogan, like prime movers in their media. Mm-hmm.

who did things that either hadn't been done before or that deliberately challenged the audience in a way they hadn't been challenged. I don't remember which one of you guys said it, but somebody was being interviewed early on on Seinfeld and just said, look, there will be no lessons. Oh, no hugging, no learning. There'll be no hugging, there'll be no learning. And in a vacuum, in and of itself,

Who cares? But because everything that preceded it had been predicated on hugs and learning. Right. Right. That's what made it a tough sell and ultimately a risky proposition that if it paid off would yield the same kind of rewards as Sunday in the Park with George. Absolutely. Or the Joe Rogan experience, all of which triggered these whole new things. Yeah. So to be on the vanguard of that.

As a frustrated magician who couldn't palm a card, but somehow figured out how to pick up four aces. I mean, yeah. So let's stick with the podcast for a bit then. Because that, for better or worse, that's where we are right now. That's what's happening. And I just listened to maybe four or five of what you guys have done since Peter came on.

It could be huge, Jason. It could, yeah. Your specific thing really could be if it catches fire. Right. And I don't know why it wouldn't. Because we're a boat in an armada. I mean, you know. There's that. It's very hard to get attention. First of all, I'm bad at this. I don't really do social media anymore. I'm happy to be here with you, but I get lots of invitations. I'm like, I don't know.

Part of it is promotion, both on our end and on iHeart's end. iHeart has 8,000 podcasts. What are there, four and a half million now, something like that? Yeah. It's a lot. And I don't think they know why the ones that are working work. I think they believe it is because there's a personality on it that is appealing to a large population. Yeah.

I don't think anybody, us included, is doing anything that anybody else is. We're basically doing a sideways version of how stuff works. True enough. And so what's interesting about ours is I think Peter and I represent a fairly good cross-section of guys who go,

Yeah, what is that? That's weird. What is that about? That doesn't sound right. That can't be right. What's been great about our podcast is we go in with preconceptions and we get our heads spun around a lot. So I remember specifically the guy I had heard, I think I mentioned it to Peter and I said, we should look into this. I had read that there was a team of scientists that were trying to recreate the woolly mammoth. They wanted to bring back the woolly mammoth.

And we get the guy who's heading the project. And I go, great. We're going to just have fun with this. Going, what is wrong? Have you not seen Jurassic Park? What? You don't know this. You're playing God there with your little woolly mammoth. Oh, next it's going to be the raptors. And he comes in and I go, so what are you doing? You're trying to recreate the woolly mammoth. What are you doing? And he goes, we're not trying to recreate the woolly mammoth. You know? No. He goes, we're trying to save the permafrost and the elephant.

And I went, "Say what now?" And he said, "Look, there is 2% of difference between the DNA of a woolly mammoth and the modern elephant. But in that 2%, it allowed the mammoth to exist in harsh, cold climates. If the elephant stays in the climate that it's in,

in the area that it's in, in the territory, it has about 20 years left of viability on this planet because its habitat is being diminished, it is still being poached into extinction, it is existentially threatened where it is. If we can crossbreed elephant and mammoth DNA, we can move elephant populations to the permafrost. It will save the elephant and

it will actually save the permafrost because one of the reasons that the permafrost is disappearing is it used to have herds of heavy animals tromping on it, compressing that ice, you know. And he said, we can actually save both. That's our goal. And I went,

Welcome to our show. Wow. I'd like to go ahead and retract the question. Yeah, yeah. Let's just go ahead and edit that out. So a lot of our show is that surprise of thinking, you know, coming in with the asshole attitude of, okay, you idiot, what are you doing? And then having our heads spun around. In that sense, I think we represent...

All those wonderful human interest stories that are the only reason people are still buying magazines and newspapers and, you know, the clickbait stories where we look at it and go, what's really going on there? Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-

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By the way, the iHeart Network has 32,223. There you go. Yeah. So 32,222 other podcasts besides really no real. The Armada. Yeah. The Armada. Wow. I just heard, what else did I listen to?

the clairvoyance, the fortune tellers. Oh, the guy who busts the fraudulent psychics, Bob. I was fascinated by that. And I wanted to ask you about it because I know as a magician, like that's still a big part of your identity. Yeah. Whose idea was it to bring this guy on and just how big is the fortune telling business? It's a $3 billion a year industry. Wow.

Nygaard himself has recovered up to, I think, $125 million worth of clients' savings. It's huge. And, you know, I think that started with Peter and I having a conversation. We were driving around somewhere, and we saw one of these little storefront psychic things, and I went...

That's rent on that space is no kidding. Right. How are they? It's got to be a front for something, right? It's the grandmother of the Don is probably sitting in the little chair in the window. And so we started going, yeah, how can somebody who goes $50 and I'll read your palm, how are they paying for these things? And Peter goes down rabbit holes. He starts researching something and he's,

He's got ADHD, which is another episode that's about to break where we interviewed a couple. The guy has ADHD, and he and his wife won an amazing race about two years ago. How did you get him to stay on the topic while you were talking to him? I've got to tell you. How did they finish the race? He talks about how he does it because he wrote a book called ADHD is a Superpower. Peter has some of it, and he goes down these rabbit holes. He takes the idea of how are they affording that building into...

Yeah, how are they making this money to finding out how much money they're making to find out how many people they're bilking to finding out there's a guy who's busting them? And he's busting them. The reason Bob Nygaard is so interesting is because if these victims go to the police, the police go, well, you're stupid. Right. You gave him $100,000. Get out of here. I got real...

And Bob goes, these are crimes. These are victims. He's one of the few guys that is really looking after them. Good for him. Yeah. Because, you know, the other thing I learned in that episode that made me go, really? Was, I mean, you just mentioned the Don, like a front for a Don. Mm-hmm.

Well, in fact, there's a massive community of fortune tellers. And they kind of police themselves in the way the mafia, right, the five families would come together, have a chat. They discuss territory. They discuss disputes.

they meet out properties and whatnot. It's like a gypsy kind of union. You bet. And it's for real, man. And it is, you know, it's as serious as a heart attack. If you break that... I mean, the one thing Bob said to us is, I'll tell you guys the name of the organization. Please don't repeat it. Because I do not want to get these guys... You know, I can take apart the weak ones. But if they think I'm a threat, I got a problem. I actually think that that episode...

It works like a public service announcement almost, right? Because when you get ripped off, when you get conned or swindled, you don't really talk about it. For the same reason you don't go to the cops because they look at you and go, hey, dummy. Right, there's a lot of shame involved here. But people need to understand that it's the frog in the boiling water. You don't walk in and they say, that'll be 100 grand. They do hot readings. They do cold readings. They earn your trust. Maybe it's 30 or 40 bucks for the service. And then...

There's curses that get lifted. And it just, I mean, to hear him talk about the amount of time these Khans... It's a long game. It is a long game. Are you sure this isn't Scientology that you're talking about? It's a good question. Because where do you draw the line between a magic trick, a Khan, a real...

Well, something that's real slash supernatural. I mean, when you think about what Houdini did really with his life. Right. You know. The busting. The busting. I mean, he was the original. Yeah. No. You know. And then, of course, you guys didn't talk about my favorite. I think he's still alive. See if he is, Chuck. I don't know. His name's James Randolph. He passed away. Did he? Yeah. James Randolph. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, he had a standing offer. You bet. Of a million dollars to anyone. Who could recreate any sort of paranormal ability under the most minimal scientific circumstances. And so anyway, I just say all of this because as we're speaking right now, people are handing over

vast sums of money. You bet. Sad people, broken people, desperate for guidance. And this giant syndicate is laughing all the way to the bank. You bet. And you are in a new medium that has virtually nothing in common with the musical theater we've discussed or the sitcoms that made you famous.

And yet, this could actually, all of this could come together in a way that is so useful to people that years from now, we're going to be gobsmacked by it. Well, I will tell you, a lot of Really No Really is intended for and I think results in a good deal of fun. But the vast majority of them have become profoundly... Another one that Peter and I started with...

And again, it's some of Peter's savant ability to find the right guest, too. But I had read an article that the town of Newton, Massachusetts, maybe, maybe, for the last 248 years, every year, they burn Benedict Arnold in effigy. They have a big parade. It's a big blowout, you know. And I went, wow, talk about holding a grudge. I mean, I would imagine most of these people don't know who the hell Benedict Arnold is.

I said to Peter, maybe something about grudges or feuds or, you know, something like what's the world's longest feud that we could do? And he comes back and he says, I found the guy who runs the International Institute of Forgiveness. I went, what the hell is that? The International Institute of Forgiveness. And this, forgive me, I can't remember his name, but this lovely gentleman comes on Zoom and, you know, we're beginning to have this conversation again where we start kind of snarky.

And 10 minutes into this conversation, Peter and I are weeping because I got to a place where I said, you know, Professor, I understand. I hear you, you know, the power of forgiveness. But what if the guy that I'm supposed to forgive doesn't deserve it?

He's not sorry. He's not contrite. Why would I forgive him? And the guy doesn't bat an eye and he goes, oh, Jason, you totally misunderstand. Forgiveness is not something you do for that person. That's the gift you give yourself. And I went, well, I don't understand that. I don't understand what you mean. And he goes, okay, well, think about someone who was wronged you and that, you know.

Because when you think about them, you feel your blood pressure go up a little bit, you get stressed out, right? Changes. If you had to eat something right now, you'd either anger eat or you wouldn't eat. It's going to interrupt your sleep. It's going to consume your working thoughts. You've had all these reactions. It's changing you physiologically. It's consuming your emotional energy. It's not doing a damn thing to him. He's fine. He's not worried about all this.

He goes, if you can get to a place where you look at that person and go, what happened to me had nothing to do with me. He's broken. He's got the problem. He might not even know he's got the problem. But me holding on to this is not serving him and it sure as hell not serving me. So I choose to let it go. I choose to say, yes, it happened. I'm a person now that knows this because of it.

You will have to deal with the consequences of who you are, but I'm letting it go." And he's starting to tell us this and Peter and I are just tearing up.

Because I went, oh my God, of course it's a gift to us. I never thought about that. I never thought about that. And so that is sort of typical in a very potent, powerful way of almost every episode. We talk to people who are training their dogs to speak with buttons on the floor. And you go, you crazy people. What the hell is wrong with you? And then you start to hear things that these animals are communicating, whether it's an accident or not.

It makes us look at that animal in a different way. It makes us consider our relationship and our responsibility to that animal in a different way. Because the buttons aren't, hey, I'm hungry or hey, I'm horny. It's like, where are you going? Well, that was one of the ones, yeah. A Christina, and I can't remember her last name, but she had a dog, I think named Bunny. I said to them, she had taught Bunny about 100 words at this point.

And I said, "Do you ever run a videotape when you and your husband leave the house?" And she goes, "Oh, it's not good. It's not good." We left the house and she's obviously agitated and she's running around. She goes to the buttons and goes, "Christina, where, where, where, where?" And goes to the door and howls and then calls out for Josh, "Where, where, where?" And you go, "This dog has no way of understanding. It has not been abandoned and it has no concept of time."

It just knows that the source of its comfort, its connection to its pack is gone. It is suffering to some degree because of that. And you go, oh my God, every time I walked out the door when my dog was home, you know, could I have done something? What do I owe this creature that I have said I will take care of you? I will provide for you. And we have this symbiotic relationship where you give me love and acceptance and joy and blah, blah.

So it's like we try to be silly and then we go, oh my God. See, this is what I'm getting at, man. We're on a wheel. History is a wheel. But I think the human condition is too. And I think in our industry, our media is a reflection of our times. So we've talked about Oklahoma. We've talked about Sunday in the Park with George. Father Knows Best. Cheers.

Into Seinfeld where no hugging no learning right think about what you're doing right now and everything you just described It's an affirmative shift. It's not saccharine sweet or earnest. You're not doing a PSA, right? You're not sitting down to have a very special moment with the man who's saving elephants You're getting into it with a smile and a wink and a nudge, you know, what are you doing? I?

And then the conversation finds its own way. But in my view, it's a reflection of where we are. Our country doesn't need a big blast of irony at the moment. We don't need it, right? I don't think. But nor do we need a lecture or a sermon or a very important message.

You guys are like really flirting with and adjacent to something that I think is conspicuously absent for a lot of people, which is a connection through humor and something meaningful. Even it's the sublime and the ridiculous. When you guys talk about why stalls in restrooms don't go to the floor,

I'm immediately confronted with two thoughts. Who gives a damn? And yeah, why don't they? Why don't they? It turns out I give a damn. Right. And I care about my dog and I care about people being swindled by fortune tellers. You know? Yeah. I don't know. You're saving the world. Yeah, you might as well. It's a tiger by the tail. Yeah. You know, it is... Watch this. Watch this. Watch this.

Oh my god, this is why they pay me the small bucks. It comes back to the Pippin thing. Pippin is a lot of sturm und drang and magic and dance and theater and theatricality and spectacle to wind up with three nearly naked people on a stage, a man, a woman, and a little boy with the bare walls of the theater exposed, no lights, no makeup, nothing theatrical at all to go. I don't know what this is, but it's the only real thing. And it's not exciting.

but this is where I want to be. And I think that that is, some version of that would be very healthy for the world right now. We live in this crazy world where so much of our media, I really, I wish I could take everybody that owns media by the throat and go, what are you doing?

You know damn well. Start with the lapels, Jim. Get up by the lapels, and if that doesn't work, then move to the throat. If you start with the throat, you have nowhere to go. I studied Krav Maga, not judo. Judo, you grab by the lapels. Is that what I know? Yeah, right. But it's, Tico, why have you decided to make your fortunes on the aggravation and fears of just decent people? When you know damn well at the end of the day, no matter what it looks like,

Most good people want the exact damn thing. We want to feel safe and secure. We want to be loved and loved. We want respect. We want something to do. We want the hope that tomorrow could even be a better day than today. And we want it for everybody else as well. So why are you trying to show us stuff that makes us believe that the guy across the street is my enemy?

The elevation of angst. And that there is no humanity in him that resembles mine. Yes. Is it exciting? Sure. Because we go anger and fear and jealousies. They're hot. They're the stuff of Pippin. It's war, religion, sex, blah, blah. Yeah, try it. You got to try it. You got to try it. But there's nothing there. There's nothing there. I just want to, you know, every time I find myself talking to a group of people that we seem to be

Not on the same page and I go really we're not on the same page really what you want to go home tonight and just be surrounded by your friends and your family and your children and have a nice meal and Feel good in your own skin and go to bed going. Yeah tomorrow could be a nice day I said every person I know it's exactly that why are we not? Acknowledging that sharing that together. We may disagree on the things that will get us there. Mm-hmm

And the conditions for which we achieve that state may be slightly different based on who we are, where we live, what the conditions of our surroundings are. But we can't make room for those differences in order to achieve this thing that we all want. And that's what just drives me to distraction right now. What if it's expectations? What if the consequence of our media is

making the choices that they've made has resulted in a false sense of what's coming out. But back to Pippin, this is Pippin. I mean, this is the Pippin episode, but there's a, in the battle, which Charlemagne, right? Yeah.

His first taste of battle was not as advertised. Right. Remember what he said? I thought there'd be more plumes. Exactly right. I thought there would be more plumes. That's it, man. Yeah. So many people I know who are unhappy are basically saying that to themselves in their own way. I was expecting something bigger, more funnier. Yeah.

Right. I thought there would be more plumes. Is that all there is? Is that all there is? That's it. It's what are your expectations when you stand in the back of a theater as a kid? What are your expectations when you look at the audience as a magician? What are your expectations if you're Larry David or if you're Stephen Sondheim or if you're Peter Tilden trying to figure out the next episode or if you're Chuck Klausmeier doing the same thing? It is one boat in an armada.

But man, so many people are in the water looking for a lifeboat. They're looking to climb aboard. I've never seen it. I don't think people were looking for must-see TV on Thursday night. But boy, when they found it, they knew what they liked. Because it was that evening, started with a bunch of people in a working class bar to these screwed up midlife New York bars.

pseudo-intellectual wannabes and, you know, living the madness of a big city that is overwhelming them. Too Jewish, as I recall. Very Jewish. And then into a bunch of young 20-somethings at the start of their life. I don't even remember what the big hour was at 10 o'clock, but it was like, you know, this is us. And it's a bunch of goofy people all trying to figure out the same questions. It's the same questions. Do I fit? Do I matter?

Is there a spot for me? Do I have a community? Watch this. Okay, so this is why I get paid the small bucks too. Podcastlandia, as it exists right now, is must-see TV on Thursday nights.

20 some years ago. It's the population realizing that something that's offering a connection for them, to them, in some way, maybe not as broad as broadcast, but it's out there. It's in the armada. Maybe not that boat, but try that one. Because in the end, what we try and do in our own little way, you guys are doing, it's exactly what my friend John Hendricks did when he started the Discovery Channel from his garage in 1985. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

One mandate, one goal came out in a lot of different directions, but the prime directive was satisfy curiosity. Yeah, that's it. You guys are doing that, but you're also amusing yourself in the way only two old asshole buddies can do. Absolutely. And that, I wouldn't underestimate that either. I bet a lot of people who listen because they either recognize curiosity

or envy your relationship with Peter. Oh, that's very sweet. It is sweet of me. But I meant it. I meant it because I saw it. No, you get a sense of, you know, this weird brotherly best friend. But, you know, the essence of us is we just make fun of each other all the time, knowingly. And then we wait for

for the guy to take us off our own horse, you know? And he will. Ah, you got there. There you go. I also love the fact that you're broadcasting out of a kind of circus tent.

Explain to people the role of Howie Mandel in your life. Where are you when you do this podcast? And just give people a sense of what you're surrounded by, because it looks like the future. Howie Mandel is a really smart business guy. I mean, I've learned more about Howie in the last couple of years. So as a struggling comic, Howie bought carpet warehouse.

I mean, he's a businessman. So Howie has bought a bunch of empty warehouses right outside the Van Nuys Airport. Mm-hmm.

Where he cooks things up, you know, so he has his podcast studios there because where else do you want to do podcasting except right under the flight path? Yeah, give me a flight path. He shoots little video projects there and he uses it as an incubator. He's really interested in technologies, emerging technologies. So he's got a company called Proto over there, which is doing this sort of almost three-dimensional holographic thing.

version of Zoom where someone's got a phone on their end but they appear in a box a million miles away and everything except touching them seems possible. But Howie's bizarre presence is all over that studio. So we're doing our shows and Howie goes, what are you guys doing? You know?

I know. I was there. We witnessed that. And you got Howie crap. Although, I've got, in our studio, there's a Howie pillow where if you rub the grain one way, it's Howie bald. The other way, it's Howie with hair. It's Howie memorabilia. It's just the strangest collection of... I have one room in my house where it's a cacophony of my shit. It's just... Howie's got five warehouses of that cacophony. Warehouses. And he is the most delightful...

five-year-old I've ever met. Nobody loves a practical joke more than Howie. Nobody loves a non-PC joke more than Howie. And he's got the biggest heart in the world. And he's such a people person. He always wants to be around everybody, but if you can't touch him... Just don't hug him. Don't hug him. No touching. Bad touch. He's such a... just a fascinating persona. And I was always a fan, but part of the joy of the podcast is getting to know him a little bit more over the last couple of years. He's...

You're right. It's the clown car just pulled up. Well, these people, they come into our lives, you know? I mean, some people feel like planets because they're in a kind of predictable orbit. You know, we all have our own solar systems and we all think we're the sun in it. But then there are these asteroids. There are these comets. There are these just disruptors, you know? And thank God for them, you know, because they shake stuff up. You bet. And they create things.

opportunities where there were vacuums. And he's not done, man. He's got stuff going. Where I really got interested in Howie was he did an episode. He was the first celebrity we had on our show. Oh, was he? We've only done a handful because we try not to just have a celebrity for celebrity's sake. You know, you came on because Peter was specifically interested in the fact that you had created and released a film single-handedly. You know, you did something that really isn't done anymore. Right. And then we get into other stuff. But I had read an article about

where a new opera or ballet had opened in Germany, and the critic gave it a scathing review, and so the opera or ballet director confronted them and smeared feces in their face. And I thought, well, really? Half star. Yeah. And so I wanted to do something on criticism and judgment and, you know...

And Peter goes, well, you know, Howie's the longest serving judge on television. He's on AGT. He's been there 18 years. And I went, yeah, is that the right one? Is that really? And he came on and we really just talked about the impact of judging people at this really delicate point in

in their lives. You create possibilities, you destroy possibilities. And I said to Howie, you don't sing. Who are you to judge a singer? You know, and you know, he had this really, we had a great conversation and he finished it by saying, you know, I've never really looked at these questions this way. This is really, we didn't get into any of the, you know, none of the other work that he does. We just stayed on topic. So,

I want to, if you don't mind, since you brought him up, the first project that you worked on with Peter was Bob Peterson? Bob Patterson. Patterson. Patterson. So I just loved what I saw of that. Oh, thanks. And I don't understand why... Well, actually...

who cares why? We'll never know. But that character reminded me so much of the old QVC days and the old, the motivational speaking world. Which, by the way, is a world unto itself, just as surely as the fortune tellers are. So I want to be respectful of your time. We've been talking an hour. But in some way, can you make that character triangulate with everything we've been talking about from magic to

to hope, to swindling, to whatever it is you're doing today. Because I know you're out there on the circuit today as well. Yeah, we made such hay out of a failed TV show. So Bob Patterson, for people that rightfully have never heard of it... It was on after Ten Speed and Brown Shoe, as I recall. We should have only had such a good lead-in. Um...

The show is about a guy who was billed as America's fourth leading motivational speaker. That's it. That's it.

And, you know, thought himself the heir apparent to Anthony Robbins and, in fact, the better of Anthony Robbins. And makes his living telling you what's wrong with your life, why you're messing up your own life and how to improve it. But he goes home and he can't tie his shoes. I mean, he's got an ex-wife that's running a rough shot over him. He's got a son that's 500 pounds and, you know, sitting on a couch. So we thought that was great.

And you're right, there's a variety of reasons why the show didn't quite catch on. Half of them I know and half of them I'm sure I'll never know. But while we were doing that show, we would have to do all the promotion stuff where we would go out and do the 0 and 0s and the up fronts and everything.

And ABC said, hey, could you do like a two, three minute actual seminar as Bob Patterson? So Peter and I came up with, you know, little two and three minute things about, you know, you are the you in the universe. And, you know, all the aphorisms and they always killed. They killed. So when Bob Patterson went down, we said, there's something left to do with this world that I know we can do.

So Peter and I went back to the drawing board and we created a character named Donny Clay. Donny Clay shows you the way. And we started doing corporate entertainment shows. They would never be told Jason Alexander was coming. They were told Donny Clay, Nargis' fourth leading motivational speaker, was going to show up. He was going to do a one-hour motivational seminar with them. And it was a comedy show, but all wrapped in the tropes of this thing. It went from a corporate show to a Vegas show. We would do it for regular crowds and...

It is nothing but BS. There is nothing there. Nothing. And people would come up to us afterwards and go, you know, I actually, I learned a lot. And it was things like, this was one of my favorite examples. So we did a thing on money, money and, you know, and Donnie Clay would make this claim of, I'm going to change your financial fortunes today. In four words.

I can increase your income 10%, 25%, 50%, maybe even 100%. Four words. Not a program, not a book, not something you have to take home and study tonight or work on for the next three months. You can go out tomorrow with these four words and change your life. And I'd bring a guy up and I'd go, you're going to be my avatar for this. Now, just so I know what my target is, how much money are you making right now? And the guy would whisper something in my ear and I'd say, well, that's great. Good for you. That's good money. But you know...

if you wanted some luxury items like toilet paper or an orange, you might want to... And I go, let's say I could do it. Let's say... Never confuse the two, by the way. If I could interview, what would you want? What would you want to have? Come on, think out of the box. What would you want? I'd want a yacht. And the minute he'd say I want a yacht, I'd smack him across the face and go, what are you doing with a yacht? Do you know what kind of a problem the yacht... A yacht is a sinkhole for a money...

And I'd work it all up. And I'd finally get the audience into this thing where I'd say, you know what we're talking about? We're talking about FU money. That's what you want. So you've got to be able to say it. If you can't say it, you can't get it. So when I ask you what kind of money you want, what do you say? Yeah. And they'd yell it back at me. I'd go, okay, it's taking a turn now.

And I go, okay, here they are. Here are the four words. Get out your pens. Get out your paper. Here they are. Get ready to change your life. Increase your income 50, 100%. Here are the four words. Get a second job. Well, of course, huge laugh.

People would come up and go, you know, you're right. You're right. I go, yeah, technically we're right. But so what you're talking about is this notion that happens in magic, that happens in our business, that happens in that world.

of people essentially going, I don't know what I need to know. I don't have what I need to have. I'm not enough. I can't dream it big enough. I'm not smart enough. I'm not educated enough. I'm not experienced enough. It's the secret to George Costanza, by the way. People always used to say, what is George? And I go, George is a guy who goes...

I have no talents. I have no morality. I'm not attractive. I'm not successful. I'm not good at anything. I've underperformed all my life. And I'm not getting my due. I should be doing better than I'm doing. But it speaks to all of that, that somehow in a book or in a relationship or in a class or in a seminar, someone's going to go,

Here it is. Here's your answer. And if you just do this, it's all going to fall into place. And we never learn.

that anything you want to do, you can do if you're willing to put in the effort to do it. You can do it. You can get there. It doesn't matter if you're undereducated. You can get the education you need. You can get the experience you need. You made a whole show out of that. You'd show up at these places with these sometimes incredibly difficult, challenging, technical jobs and they'd show you and you'd throw yourself into it and by the end of it, you could probably do it the next day if you had to. And this notion that this guru is going to give you the answer

when, as Pippin would say, the answer was here all the time. I'm the answer. And what Donny Clay was really doing was in a completely comedic way, it's the Wizard of Oz. You had everything you wanted. You had everything you needed.

And if it wasn't right where you are, it probably wasn't worth it anyway. Again, in a sort of global sense, we just need to get to that lesson. Guys, you're doing fine. You can do better. And we need to help each other out. There's no question. But here's our world. Here's our resources. Here's what we've got to work with. We've got to make room for each other. We've got to give each other the space and the ability to get by. If I've got...

80% of the whole and you've got 20, A, you're suffering and I'm threatened at every moment because you're not going to curl up and die with your 20%. You're going to go, this isn't right. And so it's fascinating in the hundreds of thousands of years mankind has been developing. And I think this is what is scaring people right now is technologically,

We're shooting forward, but we're not shooting forward. So, you know, I was reading the other day the voice actors for games have said, "We'll strike." And I go, "Yeah, you'll strike. You've got a machine."

That seemingly can do everything you can do. Now, is that a great thing for the guy that needs to make the product? Sure. He doesn't have to pay that machine. He programs it once. He's got the world in his hands. You just put your audience out of work. Yeah. So how are they paying for your product if you've taken away their livelihoods? And nobody is thinking this crap through. It's like when technology...

tactics in war. Charlemagne knew this. Napoleon saw it firsthand. And of course, in the Civil War, it was most evident. Or maybe World War I. You're still fighting the war tactics.

like you fought the last one. But now we've got the Gatling gun. Right. And now we have a rifled barrel, which is why they found the bodies stacked like cordwood and Shiloh, because a single bullet took the line. Right. So you didn't have time to adjust to the tech. And I wonder if this Armada we're talking about, you know, four and a half million podcasts, for instance, 32,000 alone on iHeart. What people need is it

you said it, an avatar, maybe a docent. We need a trusted guide to say, that was a good boat over there. I took a ride on the good ship really, no, really. You know what? It's seaworthy. The captain's trustworthy and you'll probably learn something. Hop aboard. That stuff today, I think is way more valuable than it was Thursday nights 20 years ago because it's

Everybody knew there are three places to look for something that maybe I'll like. And we're all going to experience it in the same time and talk about it the next day. We're in different boats. We're going in different directions with different captains, with different trajectories. This one saving the woolly mammoth in order to save the elephants and

This one is trying to get money back from swindled, clairvoyant victims. It's such a rich pageant. And there's Pippin, like, to your point, saying, God, maybe it'd be easier if I just stayed home and...

grew some corn or something. Here's, I think, a good place to land the plane or at least start to. I walked in my house one day just in time to see Tony Robbins' face up on my big giant TV, which I'd left on, just in time to hear him say, and the bottom line is, the more things you own, the more things own you.

And I never thought much of Tony Robbins, really. I know him. Nice guy, but I've always looked askance at that industry. But that thing hit me like a ton of bricks. And it made me realize, not for the first time, that some of the best advice you'll ever get might come from Donny Clay, might come from a surprising situation. But early on, you mentioned twice in passing 40 years of therapy. So...

Are you literally... I've tried therapy at various times throughout my life, and the trick is you have to find the person that you can... Docent. Yeah. Right ship. Right. I found that person the first time after several attempts when I was 37. I stayed with her till I was about 47. Then I took a break. When I say therapy, I had other kind of gurus that I was exploring. I'm about to turn 65 in September when I was...

I called up my gal again and I said, I'd like to come back. And she said, well, okay, great. Is there a problem? I said, no, there's no problem. She said, well, what do you want to work on? I said, well, I've had a lot of avatars in my life. I've been a lot of different people. I get paid to play them. And sometimes I've just had to create an avatar of Jason Alexander to protect Jay Greenspan. And I go, Nancy, I'm not sure I know what's the genuine one.

And before I die, I'd like to know at least what the genuine one is. So I'd like to work with you to just figure out who am I or who am I now? And that's what we've been doing for the last seven years or so. And it's been the best seven years of my life. It has delivered me to a place where I'm more or less finally comfortable in my skin.

I had an acting teacher who I loved dearly. He's a dear friend of mine named Larry Moss. And his big thing in class often would be with an actor who was struggling to go, you are enough. You're enough. And in my head, I would go, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. I am so not enough that if I don't,

keep making something here and they're going to find it out. There is sometimes an arrogance connected to I am enough because people will read it as I am everything or I am complete or I am great or I am cooked. But what I mean is if I can show up in a genuine way, I'm okay with the guy that shows up. And I think that takes work. I think we all, there are very few people I've met that

carry that in a whole way through their whole life and certainly not the folks in my business who I've gotten to know whose lives have changed so dramatically and unexpectedly and fast. I was never, you know, an A-lister, but this thing happened to me that if you take a six-year-old scared to death kid and have crowds of people go, "Oh, George!" You know, whatever that is they're reacting to.

I do not know what to do with that. I never, when I was thinking at age 12, oh, I'd like to be an actor on Broadway, I wasn't thinking I'd like to be famous. Actors on Broadway are not famous. They're just working actors. I never was interested in celebrity. I was afraid of the crowd. Why did you mention age six? I had a significantly traumatic year when I was six years old. There were three...

Kind of large things that happened to me that set me down a path for a long time I can tell you what they are very, you know quickly I had an uncle who I was very attached to emotionally attached to and he died suddenly and prematurely and They did something that Jewish families hardly ever do they had an open casket funeral and it was my first

introduction to death. And there was this man that I adored in a box that was weird. And then they closed that box and then they put that box in the ground and they buried it. And I was traumatized. What was his name?

Abe. Abe Levin was his name. Abe Levin. Uncle Abe. I'm just thinking of the dog with the button. Where's Abe? Where's Abe? Where's Abe? Where's Abe? A few months after that, I was a latchkey kid. My parents both worked and my siblings were much, much older than I was. So I grew up as more or less an only child. And I would come home from school every day at around 3, 3.30. And I had a key and I'd go to my house and I'd be in my house until my mother got home about three hours later from work. I come home.

And the doors open and I open my door and the entire house is gone. There's a couple of potted plants. There's a couple of pictures, but even the appliances are gone. They took everything. Everything.

We were such an easy house to case because my father always went to work at this hour, my mother at this hour, and everybody was going to be gone a certain set of hours. They came with a moving van in moving outfits. The neighbor said, we thought you were moving, right? We thought that you were all leaving. So I'm the one to walk in on this and I admit that we go to my parents left. I'm gone. Where's mom? Where's mom? Where's mom? Where's mom?

Three months after that, my father at age 55 has a massive coronary attack that put him in the hospital for three months. I didn't see him for three months and was being told that he could die, which means he'd be like Uncle Abe in the box. So those three events back to back, literally back to back in one year, here was the best indication. But when I was five...

I was a somewhat athletic kid, lean and mean. You could count my ribs, right? By the time I was seven, I was 35 pounds overweight. Whoa. And have fought it the rest of my life. Six was a big year. And that's why I suddenly went to magic that year too, because I,

A, I was alone. I didn't have a lot of friends. I didn't stray out of the house very much. So what could I do in my house to sort of wrap myself in the illusion of having some power was make a card disappear or change or a coin vanish. And I went, ooh.

I knew I didn't have powers, but I thought if I could do this, maybe I could appear powerful and that would keep me safe. Forgive me, but I need to know the rest of the second event because all I can see is six-year-old Jay and the house is empty. You've come home. How long was it before, you know, you knew? It was refilled? No, no, like what happened that day? I sat there until my mother came home. You sat there for how long? A couple hours. Oh my, does this not explain every single thing?

Every single thing this Nancy person is dealing with. Nancy, if you're watching, it's called job security. Yeah, it took a long time. Wow. Yeah. But, you know, here's the thing. We all have some version of that. If it didn't happen at 6, it happened at 13. It happened at 18. It happened at 27. You know, there are these sort of... The world will shock you every now and then. And...

And the success of Seinfeld was a shock. It was like, what? Say what? What's happening? What do I have to be now? Because I'm not that. But you have to become the George you described and all his neurosis. You immersed yourself in that character for a long time. And maybe even more potently, millions of people immerse themselves in that character. And so now you're not...

They don't see Bob Patterson. They don't see Donny Clay. They don't see the lead player in Forum. Fantastic, by the way. Thank you very much. Something familiar. He crushes that. They don't see Pippen. Right. They see George Costanza. Absolutely. And all of his one-dimensionality and richness at the same time. So, yeah, man, I can imagine. What was it? Nine, 11 years? No, nine. Nine seasons. Nine years. Yeah.

Nine years of... Nine years that it somehow stretched to 30? Because the damn thing doesn't go away. Which is fantastic. And the joy of it, and we may have talked about it before, the joy of it is it delivered something to me that was part of the I'm not enough. My mom, bless her heart, always used to say to me, my hope for you is you live a life of service. She was a nurse and a nurse educator all her working life.

And now I'm an actor and I'm going, well, this is not of service. I'm doing this because I seem to be OK at it and they're paying me. And, you know, at the end of the night, people go, oh, yeah, look at you. I felt like, well, I didn't I didn't get there, mom. Sorry. You know, largely Seinfeld centric on this, although there have been some other things that have been equal to it.

But my fan mail started to change and my interactions with people started to change about five or six, seven years into Seinfeld, where people would come up and go, I was going through something really hard, really hard. I lost a parent. I lost a child. I was ill. I was serving overseas, you know, and I was joyless. There was no laughter in my life. And I would put on your show and not only your show, but you, man, you, you.

gave me some laughter again. And I got through it. And I went, service. You bet. Absolutely. And I've come to cherish those interactions. Which is why when I go out and do Q&A shows and whatnot, people go, are you sick of George? And I go, I'll never be sick of George. I'm always grateful for George.

But I would rather not have to perform him again because I think it might be less charming at 65. But the fact that something I've done in my selfish pursuit to survive in this world has had that impact on people.

to the point where you are willing to come up to me and say, you helped me. I will never wish that away, and I will never get sick of somebody saying thanks. And I go, no, thank you. You gave me that life. I deliberately didn't ask you any specific questions about Seinfeld because I can only imagine the amount of time you've spent discussing it. Well, it's also, I probably don't know the answers on most of them. Because when people go, hey, remember when you did? And I go, did I do that? I do not.

I do remember in the middle of season three, everything changed. Yeah. I do remember the contest. Master of my own domain. Is that what you're referring to? Yeah, that turned our fate around. Yeah. Yeah.

And it made me feel a whole lot better about rubbing one off. I'll tell you that. It really did. See? Service. I'm trying to think of a way to drag your mom into it, but I'm not going to. Because it's just not cool. You just said a second ago that everybody has a version of your six-year-old life. And I know that's true. But a lot of people have an aversion to...

to looking back and unpacking that stuff. And I'm of two minds of it. I lean toward Kierkegaard, right? The unexamined life. There's not much point, really. And take this as a compliment because I really mean it. Your curiosity about everything from bathroom stalls to dogs that...

Wonder where their owners went. That's all really poignant, but your curiosity about yourself and where you've been and where you're going, I think that's useful for people. This is not a PSA either. We're just trying to entertain ourselves by and large. But if the best part of Bob Patterson were to leave our modest little passengers on our little boat in this giant armada with something worth clinging to, what would it be?

I'm going to quote another great healer, teacher. And that was Mel Brooks, who Bob Patterson would have learned a lot from. Who on one of his albums played a psychiatrist. And as that psychiatrist, he said, I once treated the entire Israeli army.

No, no, that's the other one. That was goodbye and good luck. He said, "I once treated a woman with nerves, very nerves, nerves, she would tear paper. Always tearing paper, tearing paper to shreds because of the nerves, tearing paper. And I helped her, I cured her." And Carl Reiner would say, "You cured her? How did you cure her?" I said to her, "Don't tear paper."

Why are you tearing paper? Bob Newhart did that, didn't he? Where he's like, just stop it. Don't do that. Don't do that. Stop it. Don't tear paper. So what I would say to people is don't tear paper. A lot of us, this is the serious turn on that. When I direct now, I say to my collaborators, yeah, yeah, I hear you. I hear there's an issue. Don't make a problem. Solve a problem. There's always going to be a problem.

You telling me there's a problem. Yes, please, by all means, inform me there's a problem and we'll do it together. But could you not have addressed that? You're basically bringing me your problem and you want me to solve your problem. Do you really feel you can't do it? I can do it for you, but I'm going to tell you to do something. So why don't you solve it? Solve the problems. There is no problem that... Every problem we have...

individually, in our families, in our communities, in this world, is a problem we've probably contributed to the making of. So solve it. Just stop it. Stop tearing paper. I decided a couple of years ago, I'm going to change my social media feeds.

I'm not going to even stop and look at the stuff that is designed to make me upset or angry because it's not true. Yeah, things like that are happening, but that's not the truth. So now I watch things like puppies or there's a couple of guys out there who...

go up to people that are struggling and go, hey, can I, do you have a dollar? Can I get a dollar? And if the person is kind enough to give them the dollar, they turn around and give them a thousand dollars. And they go, you helped me when you had nothing. I want to help you. And you start liking those things in your feed. And wait till you see what your feed looks like six months later. I can actually go to social media to go, oh my God, there are so many good people in this world.

They're out there. They're just out there. And the day it's not true, the day that there are more really destructive people than wonderful people, we'll all know it. No one will stop at the red lights. You know, civilization will fall apart. There are really great people out there just trying to live their lives. And I am so sick and tired of

Nothing is ever created out of anger, fear, or hate. Nothing. Nothing good. And I go to people sometimes who have a lot of that in their lives and I go, really? You've got a blink on this planet. I don't know what comes after this, but this is what we've got here. You really want to spend it doing this. It's that forgiveness guy going. Yeah. Give yourself a break. If that guy has a problem, he's got a problem. Let him go. Be the best version of yourself.

There are many boats in the Armada. Really, no really is a good one. You should hop aboard. There's not much else to say about your career. Your polymath. But for grins, Google Forum, Jerome Robbins,

Watch him on the stage, man. Are you coming down to La Mirada? I'm growing the beard for Fiddler on the Roof at La Mirada. Oh, really? In November. Come on, John. You buried the lead. I didn't know that. Tevye? Yeah. All your life you've been waiting for this. I've been waiting. It's the only reason my mother let me be an actor. She said, are you going to do Tevye on Broadway? I did, but only 10 minutes a night in Jerome Robbins. So I said, all right, one more time. We're going to really do it this time. Is it true that you sang Sunrise Sunset for Jerome Robbins as the sun was setting? Yeah.

We were at Michael Bennett's studio at 14th, 14th, 17th, Broadway, 890 Broadway. I did not want to audition for the show. I didn't know what the hell I could possibly do in that show. I am not a Jerome Robbins dancer by any stretch of the imagination. My friend Emanuel Eisenberg was the producer and he said, I really want you to audition. I really do. I owed him a favor. He said, I'm calling in the favor. You don't have to do the show, but you got to meet him. You got to talk to him. You got to audition for him. All right.

And I go down to meet the legendary Jerome Robbins and the first thing out of his mouth is, why the f*** am I having so much trouble getting you to audition for my show? And the arrogant avid jar of Jason goes, well, with all due respect, sir, I don't want to be in your show. And his jaw drops and he goes, no, you don't understand. I said, it's going to be magnificent. I'm going to be the first guy online to buy a ticket. But I can't dance your material. And this is essentially a dance show.

It's a review of your great numbers that you've created. You're like one of the narrators, right? Sort of like a... And I said, my friend Manny Eisenberg keeps telling me you want a narrator. And I go, you know, that doesn't feel like an actor's gig to me. It feels like, you know, a celebrity gig of some kind. And I just... Anyway, we talk for a minute and he goes... Do you know Fiddler on the Roof? I went, I'm a 29-year-old Jew. Yes, I know. And I'm an actor. Yes, I know Fiddler on the Roof.

And he goes, "Do you know Sunrise Sunset?" I said, "Yes, I do." He goes, "Go sing it." And I go over and the only spot that you're gonna, but I have this wall of 15 foot windows behind me as the sun is setting out on the lower part of New York.

And I've, you know, essentially been rehearsing this thing since I was four. And I start singing Sunrise Sunset with a little bit of a Hebraic accent. And I'm not looking at him. And I finish the number and I look over and there's a tear rolling down his cheek. And I went, oh, this is not going to be good. And we had a long conversation and he was actually lovely. He confided.

I had done a little bit of writing when I was working for Manny Eisenberg and Neil Simon and they enjoyed it. And Manny thought of me as a writer. And he had pitched to Jerry Robbins, "This kid could help you figure out how to connect the songs and what the evening will be. And he could probably write it and then he'll play whatever he writes." So Jerry Robbins said, "Look, Manny's right. I don't know how to connect this stuff. I don't know what makes it a night." He says, "You're a smart guy. You're certainly a talented guy.

You would play Pseudolus, you would play Tevye, you would play those character roles, be an actor, but if it's not enough for you, I'll make you a deal. If you take the show and get me to opening night,

If you're not happy after opening night with what you do, I don't care what your contract says, I'll let you out of the show. Wow. And I knew it was going to be a six-month rehearsal process. So this was a big commitment, no matter what. Six months rehearsing? People should know. That's extraordinary. Yeah, usually six weeks is a big deal. And I said, well, this is arguably the greatest director of musical theater, certainly of the 20th century.

you want to direct, Jason. Maybe it wouldn't be stupid to sit at the feet of such a person. - Maybe pick something up. - So, thinking it will do nothing for me as an actor, but it could be rewarding in other ways, I said yes.

And how'd that turn out? I won the Tony. But that was all a surprise. Oh, man. Most of the good things in my life I fall ass backwards into. I love when people go, how do you pick your roles? And I go, as soon as I do, I'll let you know. How old were you when you sang for him? 28 or 29. You're going to be 65 when this opens? Mm-hmm.

That's the line, folks. That's the reason to stare into your belly button every so often and ask questions. The man sings Sunrise, Sunset, 29, 39, 49, 59, 35, 36 years ago. And now he's playing that role here in L.A. in November. So what's the name of the theater? Where do you get tickets? La Mirada. La Mirada.

Good God. Is it the La Mirada Playhouse? I think it's the La Mirada Playhouse. It's Kathy Rigby and her husband Tom McCoy on it. Oh, wow. Everybody remember Kathy Rigby? Yeah. Still looks exactly the same. Yeah. Exactly the same. And could probably do a tumbling run if she had to.

You never know when you're going to have to do a tumbling, right? Right. You really don't. Islamorada Theater, just for fact-checking, and while I'm doing that, I just want to say that it was actually, what was the town that you said? It's New London was the town. New London, Connecticut. New London, Connecticut. And they do that because on September 6th, 1781, Arnold led British troops to New London and burned the town down. That's right. And they're pissed. And they're still pissed. They have not gotten over it. You think you had a bad time at six? Right? These people. That's right.

Listen, if I could burn those six guys that robbed my house in effigy, I'd do it every year. Who did you play? Perchick? Were you a Perchick? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did play that. Yeah. Miracle to miracle. No, no, that's the other one. I used to tell myself that I had everything, but that was only half true. That's the one.

I was opposite Danielle, who I was dating at the time, and then a very unfortunate thing happened. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. That was bad. Well, yeah. After you left Anna Tefka? Yeah. It all went south. Ladies and gentlemen, to sum it all up, I thought there would be more plumes. Yes.

But nevertheless, your plumage made an impression. Thank you for coming by. Thank you, Michael. Thank you, Chuck. Beautiful plumage. Beautiful plumage. I'm not talking about the bloody plumage. See you next week, folks. If you dig the podcast that we do, won't you leave a quick five-star review? I really hate to ask much more of you, but please subscribe. Oh, please subscribe. Oh, please subscribe.

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Hey moms, looking for some lighthearted guidance on this crazy journey we call parenting? Join me, Sabrina Kohlberg. And me, Andy Mitchell, for Pop Culture Moms. Where each week we talk about what we're watching. And examine our favorite pop culture moms up close to try to pick up some parenting hacks along the way. Come laugh, learn, and grow with us as we look for the best tips. And maybe a few what not to do's from our favorite fiction.

from Good Morning America and ABC Audio. Pop Culture Moms. Find it wherever you get your podcasts.