114. The Manson Family - Part 1
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Hey everybody, welcome back to our podcast. This is Murder With My Husband. I'm Peyton Moreland. And I'm Garrett Moreland. And he's the husband. And I'm the husband. You know what, you guys? We love you so much. I feel like we say it all the time, but I just wanted to start off this episode letting you guys know that we love you, that you're our friends, and that we think about you all the time and talk about you all the time. And just, yeah, that we love you guys.

Thanks for listening. Just a quick update. We're now available on Apple podcast subscriptions. So if you're not on our Patreon and it's easier for you to subscribe to ad free episodes and bonus episodes on Apple, if you're listening on Apple podcast, you'll see right on our show right there. There is a way for you to subscribe to that and you'll get bonus episodes and ad free content. It's actually really cool. I'm super excited about that. We're super excited because now we have both Patreon and Apple.

Apple subscriptions. It's the same thing, same content. Apple's really good at just making things easy. You know what I mean? I know, like it's super. One click of a button. I know, it's super fluid. So we're excited to be on both. If you have any questions, leave them and we can answer them for you. You won't want to miss out on the bonus episodes we have coming up and all our ad-free content. All right, Garrett, I think it's time for your 10 seconds. So Garrett is, Garrett as in me, is turning 28 tomorrow.

That's crazy. I already feel like I'm 28, you know? I just got confused because he said before we sat down to record that he was going to say he was turning 72. So that just threw me for a loop. No, I'm saying my real age. I'm turning 28. I don't know. I just feel like something about when I'm getting closer to 30 feels scary. But, you know, that's not, that's really not, that's not old. 30 is the new 15. Yeah.

I hope not. 30 is a new 20. That's a better way to say it. There you go. But yeah, happy birthday, Garrett. When this comes out, it will have already passed. And tell them what we're doing for your birthday. So we're going to see Top Gun for my birthday. I'm super excited. I love, obviously, the first one. So we're going to go see the second one. Peyton's never seen the first one. So we need to watch the first one tomorrow on my birthday. And then Friday, the day after, we're going to go see the second one. Woo!

I love the movies. We love the movies. So that'll be so much fun. Yeah, we love going to movies. And Tom Cruise, I mean, love him or hate him. It's just so impressive that like he flies planes. He flies all different types of planes. He flies helicopters. Right. I mean, this guy's, I mean, crazy. He can do everything. Also on my birthday, the new Disney series is coming out. Yeah.

The new Star Wars series. So I'm pretty excited about that. The Mandalorian? No, no, no. It's the new Obi-Wan series. Oh, another one? Oh, because they needed another one. I could just tell that it was time for another Star Wars series. Yeah. Oh, yeah. They got tons of them. There's definitely not enough. I'm so glad they're coming out with another one. They need a couple dozen more. So that's what I'll be doing on my birthday as well is watching those. Last but not least...

I got a ton of comments about that. Well, we got a ton of comments about the HOA. No new drama yet. We'll keep everyone updated. I know someone from the HOA heard this. I know you're out there somewhere. We haven't got a fine this week. We haven't. Well, we kept our trash cans in our garage. True. We followed the rules this week. So we'll keep everyone updated with that. But there are some good responses that kind of made me want to

I don't know. Get after it. But I'm going to take a breath. I'm going to be nice and we'll see what happens. Not to take too much time, but I was getting a lot of people asking us how much they find us. So what started out is like $50 a fine. Peyton and I didn't learn our lesson and we kept doing it. Then all of a sudden we got a $250 fine. Yeah. And that's when I lost it. Talk about an expensive trash can. $250 for my trash cans being on the side of my house.

That hurts. That does hurt. That hurt quite a bit. That's a really nice fancy meal we could have gotten. Oh, okay. Remember that food that we paid a ton for in LA? Yeah. But it didn't even cost that much. That's what I'm saying. We could have done that a couple of times. A couple of times. But it is what it is. Really?

We were breaking the rule. Yes, we were breaking the rule. All right, those are my 10 seconds. Thanks again to everyone who listens and support us. We really appreciate it. Okay, you guys, let's get into this. So first, I need to tell you guys that

This episode is going to be a two-part episode. Now, we don't do this very often, but the case that I chose for this week just needed at least two episodes, probably needs more. So if there's details missing, that's why. But I did want to let you know that if you are on Patreon or now on Apple Podcasts,

subscriptions, you will get the second episode right away. It's going to drop the same day as the first episode. If not, the second episode will be next week's episode. But I really think this is going to be a good one, especially for Garrett to hear. So I'm excited to get into it. So like I said, this week's episode is a beast of a case, and I'm sure it's one that we've all heard, including Garrett, because it's the name it's infamous.

But although we've all heard the name, there's so much to the case that we might not all know. It's complex, it's confusing, and it's fascinating. It has every angle, childhood psychology, love, murder, and even a cult.

So today we will be doing a deep dive into the Manson family, the history behind Charles Manson, his cult, and the murders they went on to eventually commit. Okay. Nothing like a good cult case. Do you know who Charles Manson is? I'm pretty sure I do. I'm going to explain who I think he is. And if he's not, then it's going to be really embarrassing. Okay, go. Maybe we'll cut it out of the podcast.

Isn't he the guy who convinced him and a ton of other people to all commit suicide? No, but I can understand why you would think that he convinced him and a ton of other people to commit murder.

Oh, okay. So you're thinking of the wrong cult. I think I am thinking of the wrong cult. So I really don't think you know who Charles Manson is. I've heard the name Charles Manson before. Right, of course. Everyone has. Okay. But this is why I'm covering it because does everyone know every detail? It's just so embarrassing. Like, how do I not know all this? Well, I mean, at least you knew he was a cult leader. True. All right. So I've decided to tell this case in a straightforward timeline of events. I think that's actually something that this case lacks based on the sources that I was looking at.

So just a to the facts from beginning to end. So that actually pushes us all the way back to 1919. I think it's a little difficult to talk about Charles Manson without talking about his mother, Ada Kathleen Maddox. Now, Kathleen, as she was known, was born on January 11th, 1919 in Ashland, Kentucky. She was the youngest of three children to Charlie and Nancy Maddox.

Now, Charlie is actually who Charles Manson was named after, so his grandfather. Charlie Maddox, Kathleen's father, died in 1931 when she was just 12 years old. He was a railroad conductor, and they lived a working-class life and were very religious. Kathleen was described early on as outspoken and kind of rebellious. Now, rebellious for 1930s, I don't know exactly what that means.

But as a teenager, she loved going to the local bars in Ohio and dancing. She loved the loud music and all the people who would dance and party with her. Charles Manson would go on to actually describe his mother as an alcoholic teenage runaway who engaged in sex work.

And while Kathleen was reported as a delinquent, engaging in petty theft with some dysfunctional relationships with some toxic men and also attending AA, by all other accounts, she did not engage in sex work. Now, this is just one of many times that we are going to see that Charles Manson over-dramatizes his awful upbringing. He talks a lot about how bad his childhood was, but kind of dramatizes it.

Kathleen met Colonel Walker Henderson Scott Sr. when she was just 15 and he was 23. Now there seems to be some confusion on whether or not his first name was simply Colonel or if he was actually in the military. But according to sources, he may have been a bit of a con artist himself.

He, at 23, had actually convinced Kathleen at 15 that he was in love with her. But that wasn't the case. He wasn't looking for a serious relationship because, in fact, he was already married. So 15-year-old Kathleen was actually his mistress. But, I mean, that's technically illegal. So that's the situation going on. So when Kathleen found out that she was pregnant...

and was now dreaming of this marriage and raising a baby with Colonel Walker, he immediately left her on her own, shattering her dreams.

Okay.

Now, she clearly lied about her age because otherwise she would have needed her mother's permission to get married, which she did not have. On November 12th, 1934, Charles Manson was born at the Cincinnati General Hospital to Kathleen Maddox when she was about to turn 16 years old.

One weird fact about this is that it's rumored that Charles Manson was actually born no name Maddox. Like literally there's discrepancies about his birth certificate saying Charles Manson or no name Maddox. Okay. How does nobody know?

Well, this might be because you used to be able to actually get souvenir birth certificates before your official document was filed. He could technically have two different birth certificates that say different things. This was because there was like one that you could take home to show, but it wasn't official. So maybe his take home one said one thing, but then his official one was filed as something different. Got it.

But we know that by December 3rd, 1934, his official birth certificate was filed as Charles Manson. And his father was listed as William Manson, the laborer from Cincinnati. Not Mr. Colonel, his actual birth father, who ran away from his pregnant 15-year-old girlfriend.

From the time that he was little, Charles was referred to as Charlie by his whole family. So if you hear me call him that in his younger age, that is why. By April 19th, 1937, Kathleen had tracked down Mr. Colonel and filed a lawsuit against him. Basically like saying that she needed child support for Charles. Okay.

And she was actually awarded an upfront fee of $25 from him and then $5 a month following this. That's great because it's so long ago, it seems like. Right. It's in the 30s. I'll pay that. The initial $25 would actually be $500 with inflation in today's money.

So Mr. Colonel actually paid the $25 but never followed up with the $5 a month. So he paid the $500 but never followed up with the continuous child support. So because of this, Kathleen actually tried to garnish Mr. Colonel's wages at the local mill that he worked at but was unsuccessful.

In the book, Manson in His Own Words, which is written by Charles Manson, he states that his biological father, Mr. Colonel, was a transient laborer working on a nearby dam project, and he didn't stick around long enough to even watch, quote, the belly rise. He says, father, my butt. I saw the man once or twice, so I'm told, but don't remember his face.

On April 30th, 1937, William Manson files for divorce from Kathleen after only two and a half years of marriage and raising Charles. He described infidelity, drunkenness, and abandonment as the reason for the divorce. And in response to this, Kathleen did not show up to court.

so the divorce was actually granted. It was later discovered that Kathleen had been kind of leaving at night while married to him and not returning until the morning. She would drop Charlie off with his grandmother or Aunt Glenna and then go out with her brother, Luther Maddox, and rob patrons in bars by conning them. So she had kind of

Started this life of becoming a con artist. By September 27th, 1939, two years later, Kathleen and her brother Luther are arrested for their involvement in what was called the ketchup bottle holdup.

Now, Luther stuck a ketchup bottle full of sand into the back of someone pretending that it was a gun and then forced them out of their car. They then jacked the car and took off. They both pled guilty and were sentenced 10 years in the Moundsville State Penitentiary.

And if you look up newspaper articles on this, it is called the ketchup bottle holdup. So they were sentenced to jail for 10 years? 10 years in Mansville State Penitentiary. And this penitentiary has since closed its doors, but it actually does offer tours right now because it's reported to be haunted after being the site of 94 executions. Oh my gosh, that's a lot. Yeah. There were also a number of prison escapes at this

specific prison and one of them was none other than Luther Maddox himself, Kathleen's brother and Charlie's uncle. After he went to prison for the ketchup bottle holdup, he stole a prison truck and escaped, but was captured three days later. Now the state penitentiary is now also used as a filming location and was actually the prison used in Mindhunter on Netflix, which I just had to add.

I've heard everyone who likes true crime loves Mindhunter. Yeah, it definitely is a good show. They canceled the season, didn't they? Yeah, I think they canceled it. Okay. So Charles Manson would actually go on to write a letter to the warden of Moundsville after being captured later on in this story. So when he is finally in prison, he writes a letter to the prison that his mom was stuck in. And he asked the warden if he could move to that prison and do his sentence there. Okay.

Maybe he felt some like familial tie to the prison because of his early exposure to it, or it almost felt like home to him because he visited there a lot as a child and

He promised the warden that he would not stir up any trouble, but we all know that Charles Manson does nothing but stir up trouble. So the warden said it would be a cold day in hell before he housed Charles there. Wow, okay. So after his mother and uncle go to prison, four-year-old Charles was left to live with his grandmother, Kathleen's mom.

Now, Charlie started off visiting his mother at the cold prison, but his grandmother's place was actually a ways away and the drives were getting harder and harder for her to make all of the time. So because of this, Charles, his family decided that it would be best if he moved in with his aunt Glenna and uncle bill at this point.

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So Charles Manson at four years old has lived with his mother and stepfather. Then after his mother's divorce, his mother went to prison and he lived with his grandma. But then the family decided it would be best for him to move in full time with his aunt and uncle. His aunt and uncle actually had a daughter named Joanne who was eight years old at the time. And they lived only five miles away from the prison where Charles's mom was.

So he would have a somewhat stable environment, a sibling, and still be able to see his mother, which everyone wanted. So it seemed like the best option for Charles. But from the time he was small, Charlie was known to be rowdy and disobedient.

He didn't like authority or rules and he constantly challenged them. He refused to do his chores. And once he even slashed the family screen door multiple times while throwing a tantrum. So he actually received a whooping from his uncle for that one. And this was back when physical force was more commonly used than it is now. By November, 1939, five-year-old Charles started going to public school. And because it was a small town,

His mother's reputation, her being in prison, made him unpopular with the teachers and his small size, like extremely small size, made him unpopular with his peers. Now, Charles had always been pretty small and would go on to be pretty small. As an adult, he grew up to about five foot six. But most of those recollections about being bullied or unliked in elementary school actually comes from Charles himself in his book.

And we know he loves to paint himself as a victim. And he also paints himself as a perfect, obedient child, despite everyone else in his life saying that he was very naughty and very hard to raise.

But there is one incident recorded where Charles was crying and his uncle decided that in order to prevent, quote, the sissy behavior, which just it's the 1940s. He made Charlie wear one of Joanne's dresses to school until he stopped crying and started, quote, acting like a man. That's OK. OK, so the uncle's. I feel like that would just cause.

10 times more embarrassment. Right. So the uncle's attempts obviously worked though, because he did stop crying because he was so embarrassed. Um,

And I don't want to make excuse for this behavior because we know this is obviously not okay. But honestly, it was probably well-intentioned. It's just that this type of parenting had real major consequences as we've seen. So like, thank goodness for the progress we've made. But no one at school, including Charlie's teacher, put a stop to this or sent him home despite the bullying that was now happening as he was being teased for wearing his sister's oversized dress.

But again, this was 1939 and you could literally beat children in school legally at this point. So I'm not sure many people would have put a stop to this punishment tactic.

Essentially, it seemed like Charles was living a very strict lifestyle at home and school and he hated authority. So overall, it was just not going well. I don't think his own recollection about his hard life is completely true, but I also don't think being a disobedient child in the 30s led to a very calm childhood either.

But one of the good things for Charlie about living with his uncle Bill and Aunt Glenna was they had a piano. And this is where his love for music began. And, you know, Garrett's not going to know this, but some of you might know that music goes on to play a huge part in Charles Manson, his cult, and what they did. So this is where that love for music grows. He would play the piano by ear for hours.

And although Charles back then was dragged to church by his aunt and uncle, he actually loved singing the hymns. So he would go and he would sing the hymns. And this is kind of just where he found his talent in music. By 1942, Kathleen finally gets out of prison.

And eight-year-old Charles goes to live with her and she obtains an employment at a grocery store. Now, it was during this time that Kathleen began getting a taste of just how hard of a child Charlie had become. Multiple times while she was working at the grocery store, Charles would show up unannounced, having walked there from school in the middle of the day because he was demanding candy. As an eight-year-old? As an eight-year-old, he was ditching school. Oh, that's hilarious.

As he got older, Kathleen noticed that Charles was pretty good at manipulating people to get what he wanted. And that's scary. But he was primarily targeting women for this. So she noticed that he would play to these women who were like, oh, a little boy to get what he wanted, knowing full well that he was doing that. It doesn't take long, though, for 24-year-old Kathleen. Okay, so at this point, she's 24 and has an 8-year-old. Wow.

to find alcohol once again after being released from prison and revert back to her old ways, leaving Charlie like home alone or with questionable babysitters as she spends time in the bars in the Charleston area. And how much of this is true, I guess, because you said it's from his book, but are other sources also confirming some of this? Yeah, so I do clarify if it's from his book and all of the family has disagreed with it.

But the family has come out and said that this is the environment he was being raised in. But he has come out to the extreme saying more things about his mother that others have said, no, that was not happening. Obviously, no excuse at all for what he ends up doing. But I'm just curious how much we are going over his childhood for psychology purposes. Yes.

So others say that Kathleen at this time would attend AA to try and curb the alcohol addiction, but was unsuccessful. Despite this, Kathleen meets a man named Lewis, and by August of 1943, they get married in Ohio. Now, Lewis had been a soldier who was released early during the war, and we don't know why.

But during the years of marriage to Louis, things in the new family are spiraling. Louis, too, suffers with alcohol addiction. And so him and Kathleen together were not a healthy couple, thus not creating a very healthy home life for an already disobedient and troubled Charles. And every year that went by as he got older and older, the more troubled he became. He began participating in petty crimes, stealing and lying all of the time.

He was stealing things from other children to food, to candy from, you know, gas stations and grocery stores. And anytime he was caught, he would just place blame on Lewis and Kathleen talking about how hard his childhood was and manipulating those around him to think that he was just an innocent boy who was growing up in a hard life. Interesting from like the time he was eight. He starts doing this. He starts manipulating people. Right. Right.

And by this point, all of the truancy officers in Charleston know who eight-year-old Charlie is.

It's gotten so bad that Kathleen goes to her mother for help with Charlie after he set his school on fire at just nine years old. Holy crap. Now, this incident has only ever been brought up by Charles himself. No family seems to remember this exact one, but they do say that he set fires to other things. So not specifically the school, but maybe things in the house.

I'm not saying this didn't happen, but I'm also saying it's Charles Manson. So who, you know, he exaggerates stories. So I don't know whether to believe it or not.

By 1947, at 12 years old, Kathleen was at a loss for what to do with Charlie. I mean, he's 12 and he's running away from home for days at a time. He's refusing to go to school and he is stealing anything and everything and getting in trouble with the law a lot. At 12 years old, I don't know how you handle that. Right. So she decided to finally send him to the Gilbalt School for the Boys in Indiana. Right.

Now, this school was founded in 1921 as a home for wayward boys. And this would be just one of many institutions like this that Charles would find himself in. Now, this specific school was run by Catholic priests, and there was a lot of rules that Charlie obviously had trouble following. And the punishment for this was physical violence, wolfhoundry.

wooden paddles, leather straps. We could obviously do a whole entire other episode about these type of schools from not just back in the day, but even now. History shows that there was not only a lot of physical abuse happening, but also sexual abuse occurring in these schools. I've actually heard of one case where multiple boys were tortured to death and then buried on the grounds and the city covered it up because this was a home for wayward boys.

That's nuts. Needless to say, these environments and institutions are controversial at best. But that December, after spending every day at the school, Charlie was actually allowed to spend Christmas with his aunt and uncle. Keep in mind, he's still young. He's in his preteen. So that's why they let him go home for Christmas. But while visiting family for Christmas, Charlie was found in the bathroom playing with the uncle Bill's handgun.

And when uncle Bill was like, okay, give that back to me. He's like, no, I'm taking this back to the school and wouldn't give it back to him. So this was really the last time that Charlie was fully welcomed at his aunt and uncles, you know, with love and, and understanding after this, every time he goes back, they're always a little on edge.

So after heading back to the school, Charlie runs away and he makes it back home to Kathleen. But when he arrives, she sends him right back. She's like, hey, I sent you to this school. Go back and learn how to be a good boy. Which is so ironic because they are both like children.

She's not a good mom. Well, right. I don't know how else to really say it. You know what I'm saying? She has her struggles as well. She went to prison for 10 years. Right. She doesn't really want to be a mother. It seems like. Yes. And so I do think it's hard because she's like, I don't know what to do with you. And he's also like, I don't know what to do with you. You know what I mean? And I would say that after this point, you know,

is when Charles was old enough to really begin causing some real trouble. And also when he realized that if he wanted to do what he wanted to do in life, he was going to need to stop relying on his family to raise him. And this is when he discovered that he could kind of be a lone wolf in this world.

So in 1948, 13-year-old Charles Manson runs away again from the boys' school. But this time, instead of looking for family, he finds shelter under bridges and in the woods, living alone. He makes his way to Indianapolis and begins breaking into grocery stores and stealing from the cash registers. By 1948,

By 1949, he actually attempts to get a job working like a real job, but quickly realizes that petty theft was easier and paid better than any job would pay a 14-year-old. Of course. So this same year, he was caught by authorities for his petty crimes.

And when they discovered he was 14 and living on his own without family, he was sent to Boys Town, which was a juvenile facility in Omaha, Nebraska. He keeps going to all these boys schools. Well, this one's actually juvie. So this one is an actual...

juvenile prison yeah but just four days later 14 year old manson and another boy from juvie named blackie nelson obtained a gun stole a car and used it to commit two armed robberies on their way to illinois how do you do that at 14 years old wait and he's in juvie or he escaped from juvie he escaped

from juvie how in four days how does that happen right and it's not the last time this guy this bugger knows how to get out of a bad situation so i tell you all of this so that you can hear the real background of charles manson because i think this is you know parts of him that aren't always talked about and hopefully get a better understanding of how he eventually goes on to become a cult leader after escaping the young pair run away to find blackie's uncle who was a known thief

And Blackie and Charles were hoping at 14 that Blackie's uncle would take them in and almost let them work for him as thieves. And he did. It was during this time of working with Blackie and Blackie's uncle that Manson was caught by authorities again. And this time it was during a nighttime raid.

After they caught Charles Manson, they quickly linked him to the other crimes, his escape. And so they decided that instead of juvie, he was troubled. So he would be sent to a strict reform school called Indiana Boys School. It was outside of Indiana. So another one. Another one.

Part of the reason this choice was made is because at 14, Charles Manson was actually now struggling to even read or write because he had skipped that much school. So they hoped that sending him somewhere like this would reform him and educate him. But again, most of these boys schools were not, you know, they weren't teaching education. They were usually just farmed out to local laborers during the day, made the money, came back to the school.

According to Manson, it was at this school that he was targeted by the older boys because of his size and was picked on and was brutally beaten and raped by the other boys. Some even being encouraged by a staff member named A.B. Clark. So in his book, he lists names and he's very specific about what happened to him. This was where he claims he developed a tactic to stop these attacks. He called it his insane game technique.

Anytime someone would try to attack him, he would begin screaming, making weird noises and waving his arms and contorting his body to convince the person that he was insane. And it worked. The boys stopped picking on him physically because they didn't want to mess with that. So it was during this time that Manson also masterminded another escape with several other boys in October of 1949. But they were all arrested. Their attempt was unsuccessful.

Then two years later, so he spends two years in this school and kind of stays out of trouble. I mean, he gets in fights occasionally, but it's not anything big. But then in 1951, Charles Manson and two other boys successfully escape from the Indiana Boys School. Now, all of these escapes are plans that were hatched

by Charles himself and that is important because he's the mastermind behind this and he's convincing other people to join in on this okay but these boys who escape from Indiana are later arrested in Utah for trying to rob a gas station but he wasn't he was he was with them and he was charged with the federal crime of driving a stolen vehicle across state lines so they carjacked someone they

They took the vehicle. They made their way all the way to Utah and then tried to rob a gas station, but the authorities caught them. At 14? At 14. That's so young. And again, Charles Manson was sent to Washington, D.C.'s National Training School for Boys.

Why wasn't he sent like a juvie again? Because every time he's evaluated, the doctors are saying he's so young, he could be reformed. Let's send him to a reformed school, not to juvie, which I do appreciate the effort. I appreciate the effort of like, let's give this boy a second chance. Obviously, it's not working. Well, and as we know, these schools aren't necessarily, you know, harboring a second chance.

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At this school, it was discovered that although Manson could barely read or write, he had a high IQ.

So the doctors are like, so he's uneducated, but he's also really smart. We make sense, right? He was the one that mastered or the one who came up with all these plans. And I think it takes a smart eight year old to figure out how to manipulate an adult. Oh, 100%. So this is where he actually began telling caseworkers about his horrible and unfavorable family life, saying he had no one in his family who loved him.

But as we know, his grandmother, his aunt and his uncle clearly cared for him. - It all seems like a manipulation tactic at this point. I don't know who he heard it from or how he knows to do this. - Right. - I don't know. It just seems like he knows to do it. You know what I'm saying?

And I mean, he really only spent like four years with his mom until he ran away. So all the rest of the time, really, he was spent in a good, you know, strict household. It was the 30s, but a strict household with siblings, with people who cared about him. You know what I mean? So this...

oh, my childhood was so troubled. I know he had trouble with his mother, but it's not like he didn't have family who didn't care about him. Manson was actually sentenced to remain at the DC school until he turned 21 because of how much crime he had committed. And it was during this time that his caseworker noticed that Charles Manson's friends at the school would constantly tell adults

how hard Charles was really trying to be a good boy. And he had just been dealt such a bad hand. But the adults knew that Charles didn't seem to be trying at all. This was just the first signs that Charles had begun manipulating younger boys at the school into saying this to adults in hopes of helping him get out earlier.

And it's really kind of mind blowing to think that Manson had begun getting other people to dedicate their time to helping his life way before he became the leader of a cult. It's just weird how he recognized that such a young age that he wanted or was going to be some type of leader. Right. People are already listening to him. He's already manipulating people. Yes. So, I mean, he's already 14 and it's already starting to come around in this circle. Right. But if you were to ask him that,

He had no friends at these schools and he was picked on. So the narrative is always different to him. But according to everyone else, they're like, no, he had people come into bat for him, spending their time trying to get him out early. You know what I mean? Yep. And it seemed like almost as soon as Charles had landed in the new school in D.C., a psychiatrist who had taken a liking to him at the school decided that Charles would benefit to be transferred to a lower security institution.

Now, this all seems a little weird because Manson had escaped from every single place he'd ever been sent, including Juvie. And now this doctor thinks he would benefit in being moved to a minimum security environment. I also think it's weird that there was no punishment for him escaping Juvie.

Well, they did. They sent him to the school. That was the punishment. Yeah, it seems like a weird punishment, right? Like, why not go back to juvie? You escaped juvie, so we're going to put you in somewhere that's better. Right. Well, I mean, better... I guess security-wise. I mean, I guess getting beat and all that stuff isn't fun. Right. Better in a sense, but security-wise, yes. And I

And I want to add this because, again, I know I'm hammering it, but I think this goes to show how manipulative Charles could be because this is a doctor. This is a doctor that is like, oh, yeah, this kid's going to do better in just a less intense environment. No, he's escaped every single place he's ever been. He's not out there trying to reform. You know what I mean? So after his transfer, this transfer goes through in 1952, Manson had a parole hearing just the next month.

But right before this parole hearing, he decided to take a razor blade and hold it against another boy's throat while he sexually assaulted him. Whoa. Where did this come from? Well, it does kind of feel out of the blue, but I do think this gives validity to the fact that this probably happened to Charles. And now that he's the older one,

This is what he's doing because of this. He was then transferred to the federal reformatory in Petersburg, Virginia, where he was considered dangerous and not to be trusted. He did this even though he was up for parole the next month.

In the next few months, Charles would go on to commit eight more serious disciplinary offenses, three of them sexual assaults. Oh, my gosh. He was classified then as, quote, safe only under supervision. And I think this was the time when Charles, like I said, was old enough to finally pick on the younger boys and practice his dominance. His progress reports state that he had assaultive homosexual tendencies.

By September, they transfer him to a more secure institution in Ohio. So remember the doctor was like, oh, he needs less security. They sent him to the less security and this is what happens. So now they send him to a more secure institution. And at this new place, he manages to stay out of trouble due to the strictness of it. It's just so strict that he can't really get in trouble. Over the next year, he works his way from lower fourth to upper seventh grade education.

Because of his solid good behavior for over a year at the new place, he was granted parole at age 19 on May 8th, 1954. He had to live with his aunt and uncle as part of this parole, and they welcomed him even after everything that had happened. I'm surprised they did. Well, and despite the fact that since 12 years old, he had been in and out of juvie and boys schools. Mm-hmm.

But again, this just goes to show that he did have family who cared about him. Because if they didn't care, they wouldn't have welcomed him back after everything. But pretty soon after moving in with his aunt and uncle and after finally being released, he decided to break his parole and move back with his mother. And the aunt and uncle didn't

report it because it was his mom that he was moving in with to try and kind of start a normal life. He's 19 years old. He's basically been in and out of these schools since 12 years old. So this is kind of his first time. So it was shortly after this attempt to live with his mom and start a life that Charles Manson met a 17 year old girl named Rosalie Jean Willis.

And she was a waitress at the local hospital. So he's 19, she's 17. By January 13th, 1955, Rosalie and Charles Manson are married at the Nazarene Church. And he actually takes a couple of jobs to support his new wife. But once she gets pregnant and the bills start adding up, he resorts back to stealing cars for the additional cash. Now, I don't know. Again, these are details that I don't know if everyone knows. But I mean, he had a wife.

And I don't know if people correlate Charles Manson with this whole other life. You know what I mean? So in July of 1955, Manson drives a stolen 1951 Mercury from Ohio to Los Angeles with his very pregnant wife in the stolen car.

He's arrested, not even three months later, and pleads guilty but requests psychiatric help. What does his wife think about all this? Does it say anything? No, it doesn't say anything. But if I'm going to look at the trajectory of Manson's life, I'm going to say that this wife was brainwashed. Okay.

that he was that manipulative that she didn't even stand a chance. I guess it makes sense if he becomes a cult leader. Right. I don't know if she necessarily had a chance. And she's 17. She's very young. So Charles was examined on October 26, 1955 by Dr. Edwin McNeil, who concluded that...

fatherhood would straighten him out. That's all he needed. Charles Manson. How is he manipulating every single person in his life? Like no one is seeing through the BS here. Well, and also he gets arrested after a whole entire criminal record since 12 years old. He gets arrested again as an adult and,

And the first thing he says is, oh, I'm crazy. I need psychiatric help. I just, once again, abusing and manipulating the system. He knows what to ask for. So he is given five years probation, even after admitting to the doctor that he beats his pregnant wife. And I think this just goes to show like what you said. At this point, Charles Manson has figured out how to manipulate even doctors. Which I try to think about if that can happen, like-

nowadays. I think it still does, but I think we've become less gullible maybe. And also just like as information has spread, I mean, how many people know about psychology? Maybe doctors are like, well, a lot of people might, you know, know the ways to try to manipulate us now. So they look out for it. Hopefully. I don't know. Despite this good news, him getting off on probation, Charles Manson gets arrested on March 14th, 1956 after skipping his parole hearing.

So he gets arrested, he convinces them to give him parole, and then he skips his parole hearing. So he gets arrested again. He's sentenced to three years imprisonment at San Pedro, California. Rosalie Jean Willis, his wife, gives birth to Charles Manson Jr. after this.

and decides to move in with Kathleen, his mom, who has now actually moved to Los Angeles as well. So they're all in Los Angeles. Rosalie visits Charles the first year that he is in prison, but by the next year, she stops visiting him and moves out of Kathleen's home. By 1957, she files for divorce and gets full custody of Charles Manson Jr. This is probably the best thing that could have ever happened for her.

In June of 1957, Charles Manson is described by the warden as having been in almost continuous custody since the age of eight. Despite this, the warden believes after talking to Charles Manson that he has the ability to lead a normal life and this will never happen if he stays locked up in prison. The warden of a prison. So in 1957, Charles Manson is transferred to a unit with less supervision.

but is later found in the parking lot, somehow dressed in civilian clothes, trying to hotwire a car to escape prison. I just don't understand how you convince the warden of a prison who sees...

Bad, bad people. I guess the best way to put it every single day, every minute of the day. And I think this is exactly why Charles Manson is infamous. I think this is why everyone is so intrigued by his life because he really was so manipulative. I don't know a ton of true crime, I guess, infamous serial killers or murderers or whatever you want to call them. Yeah. But I do feel like the ones who are

like serial killers or who are dangerous like this, but also maybe are good looking or who are smart and who can talk to people very well and have good social cues are the most dangerous ones. I would, I would agree. That is a very good observation, Garrett. Like, I mean, the only thing that comes to mind obviously is Ted Bundy. Right.

But there were many more. There were many more. He was smart. He was good looking, according to a lot of people. He had very good social skills. Yes. So it's just interesting. They can just get away with it because you don't suspect it. Exactly. So Charles is obviously denied parole at this point and an additional five years are added to his sentence for the escape attempt. Now, during his time in prison, Charles Manson at this point begins studying a lot of different religions and

and somehow convinced guards and workers to do things that would benefit him all of the time. Like, I want to be moved to this block. And can I get some books to the prison or stuff like that? Would they give him? Would he give them stuff? Yes. He convinced them to. Would he give the guard stuff for this? It's not listed. And again, this might just be from his point of view of like bumping himself up. Maybe he was just paying them off. Yeah. But we do know he was getting stuff.

It's almost like he was sharpening or practicing his manipulation skills while in prison. Finally, on September 30th, 1958, Charles Manson is released from prison at age 23 and given five years of parole. Just five months later, he's reported to be pimping out a 16-year-old girl

and manipulating another young girl to steal him money from her wealthy parents. He's just going to keep doing this over and over again. How does no one else see this? Right. I mean, it feels obvious. Yeah.

And this is not the last time that we are going to see Charles manipulating a middle class girl to steal money from her family to give to him. Got it. This is the first time we're kind of seeing it, but it's definitely not going to be the last. By September of 1959, Charles Manson gets in trouble again after attempting to cash a forged U.S. Treasury check that he stole from someone's mailbox.

he's turned over to the secret service to be interviewed because this is like a government check during this interview charles manson swipes the check off of the table and swallows it when the agents have their backs turned he swallowed it yes so he's thinking without a check there's no proof like they have the check sitting in front of me so i'm just going to swallow my gosh while awaiting court charles manson eventually that same year marries and again

A woman named Leona Ray Mooser. Wait, so he didn't get in trouble? Well, he's awaiting his court date to find out if he's going to prison or whatever. Okay, so he meets her and gets married very fast, right? This new wife goes to the judge and says, please just drop the charges against my husband or just don't send him into prison. Give him parole. She says, we're in love. We just got married. Our life is just starting and I'm going to help straighten him out.

The judge believes her. And so Manson is sentenced to parole again and doesn't serve time. Now I say this because how did he find someone to marry him and then go to bat for him in a time when he needed it the most? You know what I mean? It just seems a little suspicious. So Manson gets out on parole, obviously, and then takes Leona and another woman and returns to his pimping and basically just takes advantage of younger women, including his wife.

Leona eventually gets pregnant with Manson's second child and they name him Charles Luther Manson. And this is around the same time that Charles Manson, the senior, violates parole. And this time Leona testifies against him. So in the time that he violates his parole and she has their baby, she has now 180 and is testifying against him even though while she was. This guy. Right.

- Right. - He probably could have ran for president. - Probably. - Like it's insane how many people believe him. - Well, and we haven't even gotten to the Charles Manson story that most of our listeners are going to know. I mean, this is the story that's not told all that often.

But might I add that both of his children are now named exactly after him, Charles Manson. I'm not saying that you shouldn't name your kid after yourself, but if we're going to talk about this narcissistic... Egotistical. I just think it's funny that he's now named two kids after him. So records show that Leona and Manson's marriage was terminated on April 10th, 1963 in Denver, Colorado. On June 23rd, 1960, Charles is arrested in Texas.

and brought back to California where the same judge who gave him parole sentences him to 10 years. So the same judge who believed Leona and gave him parole now sentences him to 10 years and says if there ever was a man who demonstrated himself completely unfit for probation, it was him. Okay.

While in prison, now at 28 years old, Charles Manson's prison report claims that he is active in softball, basketball, and croquet, and is a member of the drama club and self-improvement group, as well as a fanatic on the guitar. So he's playing music in prison, which I know doesn't mean a lot to you, but it matters for the second part of our story.

By 1961, he's moved from Los Angeles to the U.S. Penitentiary at McNeil Island for his fraudulent check cashing. So now they're charging him with this. His prison annual review noted that he had a tremendous drive to call attention to himself and

And prison psychiatrists say he has a deep-seated personality problem and had begun studying Scientology heavily while in prison. In 1964 and 65, Beatlemania hits America. Now, I'm not sure that Garrett knew the Beatles play a big part in Charles Manson's story, but they do. No idea.

Manson is reportedly jealous of them, but can't stop listening to them like everyone else in America. Why would he be jealous of them? The Beatles. Because he loves music. And so at this point, he begins telling everyone that he will be bigger than the Beatles one day.

He's having serious keeping up with the Joneses and FOMO about the fact that Beatles have become as big as they are. Like it's literally called Beatlemania. I mean, if this were modern day, Charles Manson would have been so jealous of Justin Bieber. Got it. You know what I mean? Just about the mania that hit. He's like, no, that's supposed to be me. He has inflated ego. He's like, I'm good at music and I will be as big as the Beatles. I will be bigger than the Beatles. Yeah.

Charles begins writing songs, playing the guitar and the drums. He dives head first into music at this point. After staying out of trouble because he was focusing on his music, Charles Manson is released on early parole on March 21st, 1967. And this is the beginning of the Charles Manson that most of us have heard about. And you won't be hearing this part until the second episode of this two-parter.

Oh, man, I have to wait, too. I know I'm leaving you on a cliffhanger because now we are about to get into the juicy details of how this is the point where Charles Manson begins creating his cult. He moves back to Los Angeles and we really hear the story about how Charles Manson goes on to eventually murder people. I guess I'll hear it earlier than everyone else because I'll be hearing it tomorrow.

Right. But also, if you are a member of Patreon or you are on Apple subscriptions, you can listen to the second part of this episode right now. It is available for you right now. So if you just finished this one, go ahead and go listen to the second one. If not, that's OK. You can listen to it next week as we continue the story on the Manson family, the history behind Charles Manson and his cult.

That was a good backstory to who he was. Right. Because it was really good. I was noticing that not all of the sources have A to Z. They have, most of them just have the second half of the story because that's the cult. But,

But I am obsessed with psychology. And so to me, hearing his childhood and hearing how manipulative he was is important while telling this story. Got it. Okay, you guys. Well, I guess we will see you in the second part of the Charles Manson story. And I love it. I hate it. Goodbye.