‘The Silence of the Lambs’ LIVE From Broadway With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, Sean Fennessey, and Mallory Rubin
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All right. Let's go Mets. Can I get one? One Phillies? No? You guys realize we're doing Silence of the Lambs, right? A movie about a serial killer who skins his victims? Okay. Let's bring out John Jastrzemski. John? My name is Bill Simmons. Let me introduce you to the crew. He's having a rollercoaster week. Francis Ford Coppola made another bomb. Adam Driver's career is officially over. You're a guy.

And yet, the never say die myths are still alive. The Prince of Long Island, Sean Fennessey. She's usually the queen of nerd culture and the mother of dragons. But tonight, she's the mother of face-eating cannibals. The one and only Mallory Rubin. You know him as Wayne Jenkins. You know him as Byron Mayo. You know him as the vice president and head treasurer of the Jame Gum fan club. C.R. Chris Ryan.

Yeah. Silence of the Lambs. The first and only horror film to win Best Picture. The third film, Sean, to win the Big Five, which are the two acting awards directing Best Picture screenwriting. What were the other two times? Can you remember? It Happened One Night. Yeah. You guys seen that one? Wow. It Happened One Night gang. It's like a trivia heckler. People are already screaming out.

And one flew over the cuckoo's nest. And one flew over the cuckoo's nest, yeah. CR, save this from a horror movie abyss. Walk us through the 80s of horror movies until this movie. Well, they were formative, but they were pretty cheap. They were pretty trashy. They weren't as prestigious as they are now. You didn't have A24 putting the auteur spin on it at all. I mean, me and Sean love these movies, but it's hard to find a critical classic out of the 80s horror movies, right?

Not very many. Not like this. Yeah, we're coming off. It's like Halloween four and five. It's like seven, five and 13th movies. Jason takes Manhattan. Yeah. We're doing, what's the nightmare on Elm Street? Is this a horror movie though? It's a thriller, right? This is a thriller. Like other than walking into a room and having the first thing you hear be, I can smell your cunt. Is it a horror movie? Yeah.

If you had the under on Mal, you can catch that at the bar. Several family members here tonight. I didn't know we were dropping that word this fast. I was working toward it. I mean, counter, there is a security guard who gets disemboweled and hung like a butterfly. I didn't know that.

What would you call it? Like a rom-com? An ode to art history. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Think of all the things we don't see, though. I think it's fair to say it's scary, right? Like, it's a scary movie. I don't know if it's a horror-horror movie, but it's definitely terrifying. Were you scared of this movie when you saw it? I'm a bad person to ask, because I saw this in Worcester, Massachusetts with my college girlfriend in 1991. Shout out to Worcester. Yeah. Great date movie. Great date movie. A lot of buzz. And...

And in the put the lotion in the basket scene, I thought it was hilarious. And I was like, I found my spirit animal in James Gunn. And people were turning around and shushing me. And I was like, I know I'm right. I know history is going to judge me right. But this is pre-internet. Like...

You only knew my friends thought it was funny. We all had this as a private joke, but we had no idea anyone else thought it was funny. And then the internet comes and people are doing James Gump stuff. And it's like, oh, so everyone thought this was kind of funny. But it was a relief. Just so we're clear, you were saying at the time that you were right about James Gump. Yeah.

I was writing about the unintentional comedy of James Gunn. Worcester Mass, people are filing out, and you're like, you guys remember me. This is going to be funny. This is going to be, I know we're all freaked out now. Are we sure this guy's bad? Also, Patino's going to be a great coach. I know it. Can you just wait?

So this was the peak of the awesome book. It's going to make an awesome movie. Oh, shit. They turned it into an awesome movie era. Is this era over, Sean? Adapting books for movies? No, like being awesome and having anticipation for them. I think it's going to be okay. I think there'll be more. Do people read books anymore? Anyone? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yes. You do. Romanticy is having a real moment. Yeah. Yeah.

That's when like a Pegasus and a woman are like involved. It's a lot of like sex on Dragonback. Yeah. Those were the voices of women, by the way, Chris, in case you didn't recognize that sound. Would you say it was romanticy? Romanticy. Yeah, mashup of fantasy and romance. I'll send you some reading. Send you some material. Does it take place in the 1300s? Yeah, just like Game of Thrones. Okay. CR, here's my first question. Okay.

Did this movie kick off a four-decade true crime boom? Is this it? Is this patient zero? I think for popularizing it, making it mainstream, I think you could definitely make that argument. Yeah. What do you think, Sean? Yeah, I fully agree. I mean, it's based so much on a lot of true crime study and the man at the FBI who developed criminal profiling. So, yes. If you think about what Clarice does in this movie, she is like an outsider who just like through pure passion and interest in the subject...

Feels like she can solve this case, which is not unlike what true crime podcasters do now, but not always successfully. It was a weird era because I knew I loved this stuff and there was like just not enough of it. I remember there was an HBO show in the mid-90s. It was like an autopsy show with Dr. Baden. Do you guys remember that one? Yeah.

And there were like three stories and somebody got killed and they figured out who did it. It was like, oh, my God, this is amazing. And then CSI. What was that like 1994? And then the OJ trial kind of flipped it. But from a pop culture entertainment standpoint, where we are now, I mean, how many podcasts Netflix every week? Like they're just running back stuff now. They're like, did we do Bundy? Yeah, we did. We'll do it again. More episodes.

And it just feels like we're at the peak of it, but I really think it starts here, Sean. I feel like even more than that, it kicked off glamorizing serial killers as the leads of movies, as the key figures in movies. So a lot of them are based on true stories, but we're going headlong into Seven and Natural Born Killers and Spree Killers that are being portrayed in movies for the next 10 years. Mal, is Hannibal Lecter the worst person you've ever rooted for in a movie? I think I'm a bad person to ask because I'm like, Darth Vader, you're my guy. Yeah.

You know, I love a redemption arc in story, but that is one of the great achievements of the film, of course, right? Is that the nominal villain, the great villain, the greatest portrayal of a villain in the history of cinema, the whole movie, you're like, this guy's going to be the one who figures it out. This guy is the one who's in control. This guy is the one who everybody else has to go to, either to be brutally murdered and dumped onto the top of an elevator shaft or to get...

The anagram that they will use to find timely clues. And so, yeah, you're like the whole story. I mean, Clarice is in theory our point of view character and the way the film is framed and shot makes us always feel like we're looking right at her. But like Lecter is the star of the movie. I have this. I have Michael Myers in Halloween 4. That was the only time I really rooted for him. It was a big comeback for him, right? People had given up on him. He got shot in both eyes. People thought he was done.

Come back here. And then Julia Roberts in My Best Friend's Wedding. That was the other one. I don't know if you guys remember that one, but she's absolutely awful, reprehensible in that movie. But I was still rooting for her to break up the wedding. That character is actually in one of those glass cells, actually, like Lecter. Anthony Hopkins. So this movie literally makes his career. He's a phenomenal stage actor.

Ice Cold is a movie star. What was it, like the Mutiny? The Elephant Man was probably his biggest hit. Magic, our beloved Magic. Yeah, Magic, which you can find on Tubi, our friends on Tubi. Yeah. I don't know what's the category for that movie on Tubi, like weird fucking 70s movies? Yeah. It's 2 a.m. and Sean's still up. Super duper, yeah. So all of a sudden this movie redoes it and he becomes an A-plus list star.

But at the same time, couldn't really escape Lecter. When you would see him, it would be like,

Like, even in The Edge, which is a movie I think we all like, I still was waiting for him to, like, eat Alec Baldwin's face or something. It took years to recover from this. Every three or four years, he goes back to the well a little bit and plays, like, a supremely smart villain. Is that Ryan Gosling movie he's in? Fracture. Fracture. Like, he knows where his bread's buttered, so he would go back to it. With the lining of an intestinal tract? And he does Lecter a couple times after this.

Yeah, the best bit of the research is basically he didn't want to do Lecter again, and then he was like, wait, how much? Yeah. Like, what about seven million? He's like, ah, it's getting warmer. He's like, what about eight? He's like, ah, in. Where do we start the filming? And then he did the prequel was the third movie. Yeah, Red Dragon. Which we'll talk about later. I'm still upset about that one. We talked when we did the Pulp Fiction podcast. I don't know if you guys listened to it, but it was four and a half hours. Oh, okay.

And we talked about Jules Winfield being one of the most memorable characters of the last 35 years, and Hannibal is up there. Is there anybody else from the last 35 years that would just jump to your head and be... Because I do feel like this is one of the eight or nine most indelible movie characters we've had. They'd be just like, hey, name some movie characters you'll never forget. I think Ledger's Joker, which I guess is just on my mind because of the movie, but I think that's a big one, right? He's a hero to you. Yeah.

Informed a lot of my politics, yeah. Would you do Floyd Gondoli or too obscure? I think it might be a little obscure. Ron Burgundy? Yeah, there's not. Like Daniel Plainview? The Bride? You can start pushing it, but I really think there's only a couple that you're just like, oh yeah. Everybody's going to name...

Maybe five or six. I think this is one of the five or six. I think the thing about Lecter, too, is that he would be, like, if you polled the masses, you just went out onto the street and did it, like, people who have never seen the movie would still pick him. And that's a point of distinction. There's a reason for that in 2024, though, which I think may come up. His spirit is alive and well, Hannibal Lecter. Topical. Should we go out onto 45th Street and start asking people about Silence of the Lambs? What does Hannibal Lecter mean to you as a man? Post-podcast.

So he created his Lecter accent as a cross between Truman Capote, Hal from 2001 Space Odyssey, and Katharine Hepburn. And then he gave an interview in 2001 where he was like, no, the Hepburn part wasn't true. But what he wasn't counting on was this guy right here who bought all the 1990s premiere magazines...

And looked up the 1991 where he talked about how Katharine Hepburn was one of the influences on the accent. So don't fucking try to slip that by me, Anthony Hopkins. I'm on eBay, motherfucker. Physical media. So one thing he said. Yeah, physical media. People love it. One thing he said, he said, I know what scares people. And I believe that stillness is the key.

If you stare at someone for more than 10 seconds, it scares them and you can do it. You can test people. Sean, you do this.

This is one of your managerial tricks. Piercing stare. I've got the blue eyes. Stillness. Arms flat at my sides. You ever look at Hannibal Lecter's posture? Yeah. I mean, he... It's a dead giveaway that he is a murderous psychopath, the way that he stands in a room. That also in living in a dungeon at the bottom of a criminally insane institution. That too. Well, the first time you see him, she's coming around the corner, Jodie Foster's character, Clarice, and he's just standing...

Like this. For like 10 seconds. He doesn't move. So he really committed to the I'm not moving bit. And I got to say, good job by him. So director Jonathan Demme told him to think about Lecter this way. I think he's a good man. He's a very bright man. He's trapped in an insane brain. That was Demme or Trump? Demme, yeah. Demme about Lecter.

And basically he thought, he thought Elector is the devil, charming, witty, clever and wise, seductive, sexual and lethal. And then Hopkins said, but he's also a gentleman. He has finesse. Yeah. He hates discourtesy. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. He doesn't like rude people, including Meg. So I can't wait to talk about. So I don't know if you guys know this, but this was the second least amount of screen time for a movie that somebody won best actor.

24 minutes, 52 seconds. Second shortest... I don't know the answer to that. What is it? David Niven. In 1958, Separate Tables, which we're doing right after this episode. He was only in 21% of the film.

He ends up beating De Niro, Robin Williams, Warren Beatty, and Nick Nolte for Best Actor. CR. Yeah. Supporting or Best Actor for this? We talked about this a little bit the first time and about how this is a huge what if because of who would have won Best Actor if he had been moved to Best Supporting. But I think the legacy of this film proves out, yes, he should have been in Best Actor. Do you guys know who won the Golden Globe for Best Actor this year? I don't. Who? Who?

Nick Nolte for Prince of Tides. In fact, at the Golden Globes this year, Silence of the Lambs only won one award. Jodie Foster. Didn't win Best Picture either. Jesus. Well, the sliding door is what FCR was mentioning was if he is supporting actor,

Jack Palance never wins for City Slickers. Oh, right. And then we never get the podcast. And then we never get Jack Palance a year later allegedly fucking up the supporting actress. And who knows what that does to Curly's gold too, right? Right. Like City Slickers too. So the story was Jack Palance. Huge for you. Who won Marissa Tomei and he didn't want to read who actually won. Yeah. But somebody else won and that she didn't actually win and that's been this legendary Hollywood story that we have no problem passing along without any factual accuracy at all.

So what do you think? Supporting or best for this? Well, this is my hottest take. So if you want me to give it right now, I'm happy to do so. This is a fraudulent Oscar. And Anthony Hopkins should give it back. Oh, wow.

The man should have been nominated in supporting, and this is wrong. So do you base that on like a timer of how long you're on screen for? Yeah, every time I watch a movie, I hold a stopwatch, and I clock everyone's screen time. That's just something I do. What do you think, Mal? Best supporting or best actor? It has to be best actor, right? The supporting role in the movie is James Gunn, Buffalo Bill.

Hannibal Lecter is the primary figure in the story. And even when he, it's not really about his screen time because he's the looming specter in every scene. He's in every scene even when he's not there. That's the case. He's the shadow in the movie. I'm okay with it. Mainly because I couldn't figure out who else should have won between the De Niro and... I think it would have been Warren Beatty's for Bugsy. Yeah, exactly. I think that's what would have happened. That sounds terrible. That movie sucked. Jodie Foster. Jodie Foster.

Oscar win in four years, the child actor star prophecy fulfilled. Yeah. Somebody who'd been in everybody's life from the moment, maybe age seven, age eight, is in Taxi Drivers and a whole bunch of movies. Everybody says she's the next great one. And then, then wins two in four years. And for you, this is her best pre-Nell work, right? Are you going to make me do Nell in front of a thousand people? Yes. Ba-da-ba-ba-da-ba-da-ba-da-ba-da. Ba-da-ba-ba-da-ba-da-ba-da-ba-da.

What Tubi category is Nell? What the fuck were we thinking? Nell is not available on Tubi. Nell is only on Paramount+. So this was a tremendous part. A young woman trying to navigate a world of threatening men, which they bang home.

Multiple times. Especially in the first 10 minutes. Like, that great scene when she gets in the elevator and just everybody's like a foot taller than her. And they're all in red and she's in the gray sweatsuit. Yeah. They loom over her. Do you feel like that's been dated at all or does it still work? No, I think if anything, you're like, wow, was this movie made three months ago? I mean, that part of it is timeless, right? Like...

needing to navigate the corporate labyrinth as you're surrounded by powerful male figures whose personalities are large enough to fill a Broadway theater. See, this is funny because Mal actually runs everything. We just kind of, we're like a facade. I'm like, is there somebody behind me? Yeah, we're the front people facade.

Why were all those guys wearing red polos like they worked at Jiffy Lube, though? I don't know. I got that. Great question. So would you go great performance, very good performance, or good performance, CR? Great performance. Great. Okay. What's your case? What's my case? Let's hear it. That she has a determination and an interiority that I think is really powerful in this movie. And the thing that I love that Demi does is he makes these...

kind of archetype, the detective, the killer, the, you know, like he makes them feel like incredibly human. And she has like an incredibly human, incredibly relatable way about her that I think I know where you're going with this and you're going to be like, but what about Michelle Pfeiffer? It's just like, it's not...

I'm right here. Yeah. But you're setting me up. You're setting me up. You're working me. Yeah. It's the accent is the only thing that doesn't 100% work for me. It's a bad accent. It just is. But she's code switching throughout the movie. Like when she's in West Virginia, she turns it on more. When she's at Quantico, she like dials it down. That's like when you're at the bank watching the Mets. That's right. You're having some water.

Sean, she won Best Actress. She beat Sarandon and Geena Davis, who were both nominated for Thelma and Louise, and probably split the vote, would be my guess. Two other characters who I think might go on your list of iconic, memorable movie characters. You know, this was a really strong run for female characters in the early 90s, and I took a movie class at Holy Cross this year, and I wrote an actual essay about that. Do you have it with you? Because we had Annie Wilkes in Misery,

And we had Thelma and Louise, and we had Clarice. And I didn't know our girl Sharon Stone was coming in Basic Instinct. But for some reason, there was just a slew of really good, distinct parts that I think we've done all those movies. We haven't done Thelma and Louise yet, but it's coming. It's on the list. So if you were murdered or nearly murdered. And Angelica Houston in Grifters, too. Jodi's 1990s, this was kind of the peak. After this, it was Little Man Tate, Summersbee, Maverick, Nell. Ba-da-ba-da-ba-da-ba-da.

And Home for the Holidays and then Contact, a polarized movie in the rear office. Yeah. I would say that this is the movie, though, that set the template for the rest of her career, which is that most of the big parts that she's in after this are much more like Clarice. They're very strong, accomplished women who are the heroes at the center of the story. Prior to this, a lot of the characters that she played were victims or girlfriends or figures who were sort of on the periphery for the most part. And in this, Maverick and Contact and...

even like Flight Plan, Panic Room, all those movies that she did where she was just like the leading woman who was in charge and who was getting shit done. And she just won an Emmy for like a very similar role. Right, Intro Detective. Jonathan Demme was coming off Something Wild and Married to the Mob, an unusual choice. So why CR? Why did he take this?

Why did they want him? I think he was interested in making movies that were for mainstream audiences, but he refused to make them in any other way than the kind that he knew how to do. And I love that you can tell that it's a Jonathan Demme movie, but it doesn't feel like any other Jonathan Demme movies. And that's sort of a hallmark of his career in general. It's like the married to the mob to Silence of the Lambs. Like you wouldn't know it's the same director unless you watched it and listened to the music and felt it and felt the way that people were behaving in it.

He said he read the book and he thought this could be the scariest movie ever. I wanted to make that movie. I wanted to make a psycho caliber fucking terrifying movie. I think he succeeded. He did it. Yeah. Yeah. Now we're here all these years later. He said, he said Jodie Foster taught him it was the story of a young woman trying to save the life of another young woman and that they had to take the high, as high of a road as possible. They didn't want to make a splatter movie, a gory movie, a crazy killer movie.

With that said, it gets a little crazy every once in a while. But yeah, it's a lot of the violence in this movie you can't see. A lot of the bad stuff, it's kind of, you're just watching the person's face reacting to the bad stuff, not seeing the bad stuff. Do you like this stuff, Mal?

No, I mean... You're not a gore person. I can't handle horror films, which, like, when I was a kid and would hear people talk about this... And one of the things about the movie, right, is, like, it's almost like a proto-meme film, right? Lotion in the Basket, Friend for Dinner, Fava Beans, and Nice.

Like before you, you don't have to have seen the movie to feel like you've consumed it, but it sounded so terrifying and premise and description that I felt for a really long time. Like I couldn't see it. I have memories of passing the VHS cover at like a blockbuster or a Hollywood video because I'm old and being terrified. Like it was like second on the list after seeing a child's play cover and seeing Chucky or something. I'm like, that will be something I can't handle. And then when I finally watched it, it's like, it is devastating.

unsettling, and there are certainly a couple sequences that I think ping true horror, the night vision goggles at the end, certainly. But it's psychological thriller, right? It's psychological terror, which I think in some ways is scarier, but the gore is actually fairly contained. I watched this on a flight yesterday with a, I would say, 10 to 12-year-old child in the seat next to me. He seemed fine. He seemed fine. As

As he was watching over your shoulder? I a couple times felt compelled to raise my hand and block the screen. He was loudly complaining the entire time that there was no Wi-Fi and he could not check the Philly score. So I'm sure he's a CR head. Philly fans would be used to Silence of the Lambs as horrors. It's okay, yeah. So the writer of this movie, Ted Talley, said that he remembered Demi saying Lester and Clarice had like a wicked stepfather, sexual undertone, mental chess game.

And that Jonathan Demme said, I've never seen that before. I don't think anyone else has. I think that's what makes this movie new. What do you think of that, Sean?

Because this did feel like a new kind of movie. And I can't really express it, but just when it came out, now it feels a little more standard. We've had so many of these and so many people have either ripped this off or worked in this real estate, but it did feel new in 91. I think the thing that is most new about it is Clarice. I don't think that there were very many characters at all like Clarice.

And the critic Amy Taubin wrote something that I thought was really interesting about this movie. She wrote, it's a suspense movie with a female protagonist who is never in sexual peril. It's a slasher movie that is devoid not only of slasher scenes, but of the anticipation of seeing them. Hmm.

It doesn't really operate, to your point, like a horror movie. It operates like a procedural thriller with a couple of extremely gross moments. So it is very different. I mean, we throw around psychological horror as a subgenre, but this is it. This is the sort of like, if you want to show somebody what that is, it's him talking to her, getting inside of her brain, finding out all of her insecurities, all of her secrets, even though Crawford has told her, don't let him get into your head.

And, you know, to your point, it's like everything about Lecter up until that jail cell scene is like people telling her about what Lecter has done and her reading about it or seeing photos. Don't do this. A nurse got too close to him. And you're like in your head, you're building it up. But you're like, I mean, how bad could it be? You know, like this guy seems so charming. And then he eats that guard's face. And you're like, it's way worse.

It's way worse than I thought it was going to be. It's kind of like when they were talking about how good Otani was in Japan and we were like, yeah, yeah, yeah. He pitches, he hits. Like, really, how good could he be? He's in Anaheim. What's going on with this? Yeah. All right, enough foreplay. Let's talk about the real star of the movie. Ted Levine as Buffalo Bill. Yeah. Not nominated. Genuinely thought you were going to say Migs. Like, for real. I have another part for him. Ted Levine, not nominated.

No supporting actor for him. Jack Palance wins. Tommy Lee Jones for JFK. I can't criticize that one because we love Clay Sean. Harvey Keitel and Bugsy. Ben Kingsley and Bugsy. And Michael Lerner and Barton Fink. What the fuck with Bugsy? What were we doing? I wasn't there. I don't know. Jesus. Blame you somehow. I did not direct the film Bugsy. They're just giving out Oscars left and right. They can't give Ted Levine a nomination. But CR...

Best horror movie villain ever? Have we topped this? Have we topped Buffalo Bill? What about John Doe in Seven? He's pretty good. What's in the box? I mean, it's up there. I think that that's like my heavyweight finals. How about you, Mallory? He's not even the best villain in this movie. I mean, right? He's like a side act. Put the lotion on your skin.

What do you think, Sean? I don't think he's the best. I think he's the funniest. Maybe most enjoyable, most entertaining? Certainly. They envisioned him as a cross between Ed Gein, Gary Hedberg, and Ted Bundy. The big three. Some cheers for Gary Hedberg out there. Who did that? These men were serial killers, folks. Also, he's...

He's Jame Gum. Yeah. Yeah. Which makes him scarier because who the fuck would name themselves Jame? Like if he's... Well, nobody names themselves usually. Well, I'm guessing his legal name was James Gum, right? So he could have gone James Gum, Jimmy Gum, Joey Gum. In the book, it's his mom forgets to put the S on the birth certificate, actually, I think. Jim Gum. Yeah. He was Jimbo growing up. Jimmer Gum. Yeah.

James Gunn. And this character was so effective. Ted Levine, we could never see him in another movie and not think of Buffalo Bill. Until Heat. He's in Heat and we're like, they're trying to save Ted Levine. Break him out of the Buffalo Bill shackles. But every time I saw him, I kept expecting him to go, she's a big fat person.

When he does the first, the truck robbery scene, and Ted Levine's on the scene, he'd be like, our figure security guy goes for his holdout piece. And I was just like, this is not happening. This is so amazing. How about this for hyperbole? His dungeon, I think, is the scariest horror movie location that I can think of. And I wrote down all the rooms. Okay. Okay.

Room number one, that's where he keeps his costumes and his mannequins and sews leather work on his skins while he's naked. That's a side room. There's a little side bedroom that has a swastika door and comforter. So it's part of the main room, but it's on the side. I'm doing this like Redfin style. No, you're doing MTV Cribs, Jame Gumb. Jame Gumb Cribs. This is where the magic happens. He's got...

This is my bathtub with a dead body in it. I love this room. Well, he's got the room where he raises the moths and butterflies. Plus, there's a carving table. Because you never know when you're getting a good carving table. Yeah, he's got the bathroom with the dead body that I don't know how long. That body's like mummified.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm just like thinking about love it or list it with Buffalo Bill. I wanted an open floor plan.

But this is a retaining wall, so it has this kind of cavern feel. I love this range. It's Thor. Yeah. I like entertaining. Well, then the fifth room, he's like, well, I could have done a foyer, and I dug a deep brick well, and that's where I keep my victims. So just the creepiest dungeon ever, and then he shuts the power off.

What would you, Matt, you're in the dungeon, he shuts the power off. What happens next for you at that point? What's going through your head? You just crawl into a corner? Well, I'm in the pit already, so I don't know if there's really like a corner. And I think I want to avoid as best I can once in the pit, the nail shavings that are protruding. Oh, you're in the pit. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Not interested in that. I would just like, I'd say, all right, I shouldn't have gone into the van.

That's clear to me now. I should not have offered to help you with furniture. I don't think this would have happened to me because I wouldn't even offer to help a friend or a family member. And I don't really go outside other than to be with you guys. And I'd like to think we would have been fine. Mal and I don't help people move, so we would have been fine. But once I'm there, I'm like, all right, this has gone badly and gotten out of hand quickly. However, I am an animal lover. Right. I'll stay. Can I just like hang out with Precious? Right. Yeah.

over here. And there's a cat too. Yeah, right? Well, I actually, I have some questions coming up later for you guys about the cats. A lot of questions about the cats. So the goodbye horses scene, apparently when Levine was working out the scene with Demi and he had some thoughts, including came up with the idea of the tuck dance. Initially, he was doing it to Bob Seger's hearse strut, which I think would have killed Bob Seger. Um,

And then they eventually moved it to Goodbye Horses. But Levine said he was into, he thought the character was into David Bowie and Lou Reed and Glitter Rock. And that was his motivation. So there you go. Memorable. James Gunn. Yeah. I would have gotten, I mean, he and I would have bonded over music. I'd be like, is this the fall? Man, this is great. Love this album. Would you have done some tandem dancing? Just mirror his moves. Yeah. Yeah.

So all the Oscars, he's not nominated. Hopkins wins, Foster wins, and the movie just crushes everybody and we're off. Thomas Harris, who wrote the three books, he wrote Red Dragon, which became Manhunter. He wrote this book. And then there was one other one, right? Hannibal? Hannibal. And then he also wrote a prequel called Hannibal Rising, which is roundly hated. Claimed he didn't see the movie.

Claimed he didn't go, but I don't know if I believe it. He definitely snuck in back row, right? There's no question. $19 million budget made $272.7 million was the fourth biggest movie of 1991. And to that point was the third biggest quote unquote horror movie behind Jaws and The Exorcist. So our guy Raj, Roger Ebert. What do you think? Four stars for this from Raj?

I know that's not the case. Yeah. This is a mess. He dinged it. A half star. Three and a half stars from Raj. He said, it's been a good long while since I felt the presence of evil so manifestly demonstrated in the first appearance of Anthony Hopkins. But then he goes through a bunch of flaws and then he says, but against these flaws are bound true suspense, unblinking horror, and an Anthony Hopkins performance that's likely to be referred to for years when horror movies are discussed. Now, here's what's interesting. Siskel

Bad review. Hated it. Thumbs down. Yeah. Appalled. Yeah, that was the next time that Roger Ebert felt the presence of evil was when he did his episode with Siskel on this movie, which is bizarre. Siskel wrote, Foster's character who is appealing is dwarfed by the monster she is after. I'd rather see her work on another case. Like what?

What the fuck's wrong with Cisco? Jesus. That's a very weird criticism. Like the case of the missing precious. Like what case did he want to see? Accounting crimes? Well, he didn't like horror movies, right? He was anti-horror movies. Yeah. These guys were like, this is, this is tripe. I don't want to watch this with horror movies. Yeah. Neither of them liked them.

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So if you've never seen or listened to the rewatchables, we do categories to break down the film. And the first category is the most rewatchable scene. We should shout out State Farm before we do a rewatchable scene, right? Oh, good point. I didn't shout out State Farm. Thank you to State Farm. Thanks for having us, State Farm. Thank you to everybody for being here. State Farm, yeah. They told me to 10 times to do that before we came out. And then I got excited when I saw a thousand people and I forgot. So thank you, State Farm.

Most watchable scene. Clarice visits Lester. Lester? And Lester. She visits Lester Lector.

Lector for the first time. This is 11 minutes into the movie and has a bunch of iconic moments. Where do you want to start, Mal? Well, I'm tempted to go right to Migs, but I would be remiss as a child of Baltimore if I didn't shout out Chilton here for a moment and his offer of a good time. Baltimore can be a really fun town if you have the right guide. Baltimore nightlife with Chilton. Sign me up. Did you ever come across a Chilton in your time in the city?

CR. Is Silence of the Lambs pre-Camden Yards harbor revitalization? Yeah, Camden was 92. Oh my God. That was real Baltimore. Chilton definitely had third base seats five, six rows up. He never made it to Camden, man.

Oh, that's right. Had him as a friend for dinner, you know? Never got to see a game in Camden Yards. That's a great plan. Tragic. Forgot about that. You can break the record. I forgot he died. Had to settle for Memorial Stadium, honestly. But he had all those years with Boog Powell, you know? He lived it up in the 70s. Yeah, but he never got Boog's barbecue at Camden. It's true. Devastating. He deserved it. Um...

Some good lines in here where he's breaking down, "Clarice, you're one generation removed from white trash." Just like starts immediately picking her apart. Did he just think of the lamp? Oh, agents darling, you think you can dissect me with this blown little tool? No, I thought that your knowledge-- You're so ambitious, aren't you? Do you know what you look like to me with your good bag and your cheap shoes? You look like a rube, a well-scrubbed hustling rube with a little taste.

Good nutrition's given you some length of bone, but you're not more than one generation from poor white trash, are you, Agent Starling? And that accent you've tried so desperately to shed, pure West Virginia. What does your father do? Is he a coal miner? Does he stink of old land? You know how quickly the boys found you, all those tedious, sticky fumblings in the back seats of cars, while you could only dream of getting out, getting anywhere, getting all the way to the end of the beat.

He says the census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with fava beans and a glass of Chianti. A census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti. I'm not going to do the noise. Can you do the noise? Yeah. Yeah.

It's like the opposite of me imitating Rob and Aaron. Did you practice that on the plane next to the child as well? Good cat and mouse game. And then Meg steals the scene. Yeah. Literally. It's an HR violation. That's where I've landed.

Migs committed an HR violation. He definitely got brought in. Did they have HR at the Baltimore Forensics Institute? I think they did. They were like, Migs, we got to talk about what happened in the basement with Clarice. I got to write this up, Migs. Yeah. You threw some fluid. I'm not doing my job, Alyssa. This scene was a running joke with me and my friends for...

30 plus years still is. My buddy from high school, Jim Grady, was just fascinated by how they did it and wanted to know if there was a way to buy fake sperm because we assumed it was fake sperm. I don't think Jodie Foster was a method actress. So I'm guessing fake sperm. Yes. But we were like, we're in college. We're like, where do we get this? We just throw it at people as they open their door in college. Yeah.

But no way to buy it. I remember seeing this. I don't know if I saw this in the theater or whether it was video first or whatever, but it was, I remember like, I do remember asking, looking at my dad and being like, and him being like, he was blowing his nose. I was like, all right. It's phlegm. Oh my God. Time will tell. We'll see.

Mal, I mean, this is your corner. Yeah. Thank you. How'd you feel about the throwing motion, like just the dynamics, the physics? Just walk us through your emotions. Yeah. Thank you for inviting me to participate this evening. You're welcome. It's always an honor to be here with you. So first of all, I would recommend that everyone revisit the film with like high quality speakers because... Oh, yeah. Some foley work. Yes. There's a lot of...

Do you want to do that sound effect? Thanks again to State Farm. Thanks again. Thanks again to our friends at State Farm. You know, I was going to save this for unanswerable questions, but do you guys think that Migs can ejaculate on command? Because...

This is a long scene. Chris. How does he, he can't possibly know exactly when she's walking by. No, she's talking to him for eight, nine minutes. Mix hasn't seen a woman in like probably 10 years. He hears her take the first step. Yeah, he's excited. Three pumps later, we're slinging it through the bars. Yeah. Pitch perfect precision. I mean, what's the grip on that pitch? Like a little like knuckle touch.

knuckle curve yeah it's a four seamer oh yeah I gotta say if you're gonna ding her on the best actress I just feel like you'd be a hundred times more horrified like not even ten times more horrified like a hundred I can't think of anything worse it's my biggest fear walking around LA every day that's your biggest fear yeah somebody throwing fluid at me any fluid I don't want fluid thrown at me yeah

I have to admit. You just invited the world to throw fluid at you. You don't say that out loud. We'll edit it out of the podcast. Yeah. Yeah.

I didn't know for a long time because I thought when they call him multiple Migs and when she comes back to Lector, he's like, I don't think he can like summon it again. Maybe not even for him. I was like, oh, multiple because he can constantly just like rub one out. Yeah. And then it finally hit me. It's multiple personality Migs. And that's why he's in a criminally insane asylum. Correct.

But I was like, multiple Migs is quite a nickname. You thought multiple orgasms? Yeah. I thought he could just rally. When did you just realize that that's not the case today? I like to when the other prisoners get mad at Migs. Like he's violated some sort of code of conduct in the basement.

It's like the worst sewer colors on the planet. I have to admit, what do you think the first two guys in that row are like? Because it's like guy, guy, Migs, Lector. And this one guy is just like, I just stole a car. How did this happen? I killed nine people. Yeah.

Bet and lead off. Next rewatchable scene, Catherine Martin belting out American Girl by Tom Petty. Incredible. Right into the van sofa scene, which is just a classic. She's a nice person. We've just seen her singing to Tom Petty. She's a person with a good heart. Cat lover. Sees a guy with a cast just outside in the middle of nowhere with a sofa that's just there trying to load it into the creepiest van possible.

And she's like, you know what? I'm going to help this guy. Nope. Hey, can you get in the van? Nope. Just help me lift it in. Yeah, okay. You seem like a nice enough guy. Are you size 14? Boom. We're done. This scene's super scary. This is a rewatchable scene? I think so. Absolutely. This is a what would you do scene.

We love this on the rewatchable. The Tom Petty's amazing. Yeah. And like, again, the camera work, the positioning, like the way you're always right up against somebody's face. You're like, you just are meeting her. Like, this seems like a fun person to hang out with. Yeah. You know that she's a quality individual, like a person, a character, because she has a cat, right? Definitely.

So you're invested in her before you even know her. It's the shorthand of having a cat and liking Tom Petty. And then disaster strikes. And also we get the night vision like that just like clicks down the little sound design, like the sound treatment. I mean, the score is amazing. Shout out Howard Shore. Yeah. Lord of the Rings legend. We got some amazing needle drops, but just like the little things like activating the goggles, that like little hiss.

chills. I always thought about them calling Tom Petty asking for the rights for American Girl. Yeah. And he's like, what's the movie? And they're like, well, yeah. It's going to win a lot of awards. You should do this. Do you want to hear my quick spiel about how this movie is about America? Let's go.

End of the 80s, end of the Reagan era, they've pushed all the demons into the underbelly of this country. This movie is the demons coming up. We see an American flag. We see the FBI failing to do its job.

We see a senator's daughter kidnapped, the victim of these crimes, and we rock out to Tom Petty's American Girl. Not a mistake. None of these choices are a mistake. Oh, and then every time she goes on one of her hunts, when she goes to the self-storage, there's all that American kind of iconography in there. He's got flags in there. Old piano, rifles and stuff. Yeah, Bill's got a flag on his wall. Not you, Bill. Not you. The other Bill. The other Bill. The other Bill.

Next scene, put the lotion in the basket. Yes. It rubs the lotion on its skin. It does this whenever it's told. Mister, my family will pay cash. Whatever ransom you're asking for, they'll pay it. It rubs the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. Yes, you will, precious. You will get the hose. Okay, okay, okay, okay. Mister, if you let me go, I won't press charges, I promise.

See, my mom is a real important woman. I guess you already know that. Now he places the lotion in the basket. So he's got five lines in this scene. It's unintentionally funny and also fucking scary as hell. She sees the nail. Yeah. Yeah, when you see the blood with the thing. This is the most effective. This guy is out to lunch in the craziest way possible. I am so scared for this person, but he's also insane.

It's right on the heels, too, of the FBI trainees watching her mother give the press conference, and they keep commenting on how smart it is that she's humanizing her by repeating her name, Catherine, Catherine, Catherine. And then you see the way that she is able to evoke that emotional response, and he breaks down. Slight tonal shift. I do feel compelled to note with my 1,000 closest friends here that my husband, I love moisturizer, and he does routinely say it rubs the lotion on his skin all the time.

All the time. This is a short one, but Lecter meeting Senator Martin. It's a great one. It's an awesome scene. We get the mass stretcher combo for Lecter. Great one. We get the breastfeed your daughter. Toughen your nipples, doesn't it? And then she goes, get this thing back to Baltimore.

And then he throws her the love your suit. Great scene. Short, but a great one. Next one. We're really getting into the good stuff. This movie, I feel as great as it is. I like the second hour more than the first hour. Oh, yeah. I just think this is a classic if you're flipping channels and you're halfway through. Like, oh, my God. Clarice goes to see Lecter in his WWE steel cage cell. Yeah. He's about to fight Triple H. No referees. Loser leaves town. Yeah.

And, uh, you still wake up sometimes, don't you? You still wake up sometimes, don't you? You wake up in the dark and hear the screaming of the Lamb. And you think if you save poor Catherine, you could make them stop, don't you? You think if Catherine lives, you won't wake up in the dark ever again to that awful screaming of the Lamb. I don't know. I don't know. Thank you.

He's amazing in this scene. He has kind of an orgasmic face at the end. He's so excited he got a therapeutic confession from her. But he also has this key line, Mal. How do we begin to covet, Clarice? Do we seek out things to covet? Make an effort to answer now. No, we just... Now, we begin by coveting what we see every day. Don't you feel eyes moving of your body, Clarice? And don't your eyes seek out the things you want? All right, yes, ma'am.

And please tell me how. It's a movie about coveting. It is, yeah. And body lotion. Brush up, yeah, and body lotion. Brush up on your Marcus Aurelius and like, how does the movie open?

Clarice running through the woods and the sense that she's being watched right? Yeah, it's like a tracking eye through the woods that scene is incredible and like you the Bond that you feel between them, you know, she's doing something wrong She's not supposed to be there But they're seeking each other out the way that she brings him the drawings and then when we see the drawings After like then the second dinner scene that yeah, he has sketched her with the lamb. I

Sierra, are you still sketching? Still doing your sketches? I was just thinking about... Let's just sketch the Duomo. Lecter has that amazing line in this scene, though, where he's basically talking about... It's like this idea that Clarice has to...

Clarice has to basically understand the way that she is being viewed to finally see Bill, right? And the idea that he always has the answer to this question and that he's just leading her to it the entire time is awesome.

The thing I think I love most about this scene, because we've seen flashbacks, right, earlier in the film. We cut back to her greeting her father as he comes home from work. When they're assessing the body, she flashes back to his funeral and his open casket. This is the most important memory in terms of shaping who Clarice is, but we don't cut to Montana because it is so riveting and so electric to watch her tell him this.

finally, and to watch her relive it himself and say they were screaming. It's like electric. Imagine if we just cut to young Clarice lifting a lamb. Yeah. That would be insane. Well, he does that Demi trick too with the people staring in the camera right off the camera.

Which he didn't invent, but I feel like I think of him now when I see other people do it. He's hugely influential on a lot of directors. Yeah, after he started doing it. All right, the next scene is my, I'm just going to spoil it now, my most rewatchable. Lecter attacks the two guards. Incredible. Just an unbelievable twist. This is so well set up. It's so fucking good from start to finish. The elevator going to five and stopping. Shots fired. Them delivering the food. The chops. Can you hide the drawings?

The music? The music, him handcuffing our guy Charles Napier. You might remember from First Blood Rambo 2. He fucked over John Rambo. Now he's getting what he deserves. And the judge from Philadelphia. Yeah. And he does the, he's stuck to the thing and Lecter's walking toward him. He does a, ah, ah! Just does the double scream. And then Lecter... Yeah. Yeah.

He's like Lydia Tarr up there. Was he coordinated for such great serial killer? He didn't look like a good athlete. I mean, his heartbeat never goes above 85. What is it? Yeah. So we get, during this whole stretch, we get a Chris Isaac cameo randomly. Close-up of Chris Isaac. Who would be the musical equivalent of that now?

Like Shawn Mendes is the FBI agent. It's like, oh my God, that's Shawn Mendes. It's Sturgill Simpson. We get blood in the elevator, no movement. And then we get the payoff of the guy says in the ambulance, yeah, pulse is 85. Like, oh no. Yeah. And then here comes Lecter and we're off. This is one of the great scenes of the last 35 years, I think.

I think this scene is why the movie is a huge box office success. Because people are like, you've got to fucking see this. Like, this is amazing. Because it catches you so by surprise. But the whole time you're watching the movie, you're like, Hannibal Lecter's going to go off in this movie. Why am I even here if I'm not going to see this guy go apeshit on somebody sometime? We're an hour in. When is this guy going to eat somebody? What are we doing here? And then he does it. There's an Ebert line in his review where he said, if the movie were not so well made, it would be ludicrous.

You have to nail this scene for the entire movie to work. So if it just comes off as like this crazy guy being like, and he's eating their face. Yeah. It's not going to work. The whole film falls apart. Can you do that pirate sound again? Yeah.

We also don't, like, we don't see Migs swallow his own tongue. We don't see Buffalo Bill murder anyone or skin anyone. We don't see Hannibal Lecter eat anyone, and the only one that we see him kill are the guards. And the only person that we see actually murdered, like their murdered body in real time, is J.M. Gumm. Like, the movie withholds, so this one centerpiece is the whole thing. It's unbelievable. Yeah. I know what's going to happen, and I'm still, like, amazed. And then...

You know, did the guards deserve it? I guess we can get into that later. Like, how do they... Did the guards deserve it? Literally everybody's like... When did that occur to you? Literally everybody's like, don't let Lecter breathe. Don't give him anything. Watch out. Don't let it... Keep your eyes on him at all times. These guys are like, oh, he wants another veal chop. So weird.

Guy's hungry tonight. Yeah. He's like, hide the drawings. Okay. Sure thing, doc. Like, this guy's the most scary murderer of all time. Yeah. Next one, it's a combo. It's the tuck dance combined with, that's what it's called. Catherine's stealing Precious. Precious, darling, how are you all right? She's in a lot of pain, mister. She needs a vet.

Now, honey, as a dog lover, how do you feel about this? Because that was like a 12-foot drop for Precious. Are you a dog lover? I'm an animal lover. I love all animals. I think it's shameful, and I believe that she deserved to die. Yeah.

So you would go out, you wouldn't play dirty. You would be like, it's not going to be the dog. It's going to be me. I would happily play dirty with humans. Yeah. But not with animals. What did Precious do? I have some questions about how she was able to lure Precious coming in picking nicks. Yeah, we did that later. Yeah, I think it's shameful and she should spend the rest of her life in disgrace.

Well, because she was starved at the bottom of a well, I think she's going to carry that with her. So she probably isn't like... The song was Goodbye Horses by Q Lazarus. Yeah. Incredible. Next scene is the amazing twist of Clarice going to James Gumm's house, but the FBI is raiding what seems to be his house, but it's not his house. It's another house.

And Clarice is just there with fucking James Gumm. Yeah. Hey, you want to come in? I think I have the number inside. She's like, yeah, all right. Don't go in. And they're raiding another thing. But this starts off earlier where Catherine gets precious and James Gumm gets mad. Don't you hurt my dog. You don't know what pain is. It's getting super scary. And then Jody shows up and all of a sudden he's got to put a shirt on. Yep.

Well, is she a big, great big fat person? And we're just going to get super creepy. Yeah. Yeah. Here's that number. Very good, Mr. Ward. Matt, use your phone, please. Sure you can use my phone. Freeze! Put your hands over your head and turn around. Spread your legs. Spread your legs. Put your hands in the back. Thumbs up. Freeze! Clarice, a little inexperienced, Sean. Maybe. Maybe.

There's a great moment when they both realize what is happening in this movie where she realizes that he is the killer and he realizes that she is here to get him. And it's some of the best wordless acting you will ever see. Ted Levine's face when he's going through the cards and it all dawns on him is magic. He's kind of excited. He's like, this is good, man. We're here in the NBA finals now and I'm ready to play. Yeah. Let's go, Clarice. That's right. Luring a woman into his lair is like literally his whole thing.

Yeah. It's a home game for him. What a bonus. Yeah, Clarice, I got the number. And that leads to the last scene, the final basement battle. Clarice, maybe 911 before you go down in the dungeon? I don't know. Does she have a cell phone, though? Well, no, we see her... He had a phone right there. Yeah, she asked about the phone. And we had seen her use the landline, right, to call Crawford when he's on the plane and she's at the neighbor's house. Yeah, this is a classic, like, destroyed-by-cellphones movie. You kind of can't do it. It has to be in the landline era. Yeah. Yeah.

That's part of the joy of it. Yeah. I would have 911'd it. My favorite part of this whole thing is he's like, Catherine Martin. She's like, oh, I'm down here. He's like, I'll be right back. And she's like, don't you fucking bitch. That's iconic.

I was going to save you. You just called me a fucking bitch. That's so accurate. That's exactly what you would say. If someone came, they're like, just kidding, got to go. You'd be like, what the fuck? Incredible. That would be amazing if she was like, okay, but be safe up there. I'll be right back. Also, if you see the lotion, can you toss it down there? Kind of become dependent on it.

Very dry in here. And that leads to the night goggles, which just about the creepiest horror movie device we've probably ever had. And the foreshadowing of this movie is so, so good. You already mentioned like his Poulsen go above 85, even when he ate her tongue for the heart rate, when Chilton's telling the story about him attacking the nurse, everything obviously with the pen, don't bring a pen in. And then the way we watch him bide his time with the pen until he's holding the pen and ready to use it. And then here, like when we see the trainee drill,

What did you do? Like, you didn't watch your corners, right? And so the whole, it's not just the fact that she's in a subterranean death lair with a serial killer who skins women. That would be enough, right? But we know that she has failed this exact test before, making your way into a room, winding your way through terrain you're not ready to navigate. And so, like, the terror is just supreme. It's unmatched, really. Yeah.

CR, what was Buffalo Bill's win probability right at the end of this scene? Was it up to like 98%? It's high. It's like, yeah. I think fans will stop taking bets, you know? Take it off the board. Biggest Buffalo Bill choke. Scott Norwood's missed field goal. The 13 seconds loss to Kansas City. Yeah.

Or Buffalo Bill almost finishing his human skin suit and choking. Someone should Photoshop a Mahomes jersey onto Clarice as she's going into the... The Buffalo Bill somehow losing again.

I'm trying to think of, you know, we talk about, you know, Chris Collinsworth and Tony Romo and how they might call a game, but that's like kind of a Joe Buck moment, I feel like, you know, where he's like, Clarice, the gun, dead! James Gumm is dead! Uh...

And then the last scene is great with Lecter. I do wish we could chat longer, but I'm having an old friend for dinner. All right, CR, what's the most rewatchable scene? The guards. The guards in the cell. You have that too, Mel? I think my favorite is the crying of the lambs story. I love that. Oh. You love a good narrative. I assume you all were going to pick the escape, so I'll go soft. I'm going with the first Clarice-Lecter encounter. The first meeting is my favorite scene in the movie. With Migs. Because of Migs. You're a Migs guy. I'm a Migs guy, sure. Yeah.

Multiple Sean. Today's most rewatchable scene brought to you by Paramount Plus. From action blockbusters to throwers to favorites for the whole family. Find something new to watch every week. A mountain of movies awaits on Paramount Plus. Plans start at $7.99 a month. Start streaming now. What's the most 1991 thing about this movie is our next category. I'm going to go with the following and feel free to throw a couple more in. Dr. Chilton hitting on Clarice right when he meets her.

Definitely 100% can't do that anymore. Hey, would you like to see the town of Baltimore? No. Senator Martin's hairstyle is like a very distinct early 90s Deborah Norwood, Tipper Gore, Morning Today show look.

Serial killer profiling. I don't know if we do this anymore. I have something to say about this later. DNA evidence not really being involved. I'm announcing a career change for myself. Two more. Helping a creepy guy lug a sofa into the van. I feel like that's not 2024. No, but the winner is obviously Chris Isaac who was coming off...

The Wicked Game video, which was one of the most important MTV videos of the early 90s. Just him writhing on a beach with some supermodel. And it felt like he was going to be a star for like five seconds. Right here with the close-up. And then that was it. The peak of Chris Isaac. Do you think it was because he was an unconvincing SWAT officer? I thought he was convincing. He was like...

What's age the best other than a face-eating serial killer is also a genius? What do you guys got? I have, I like this for Chilton is the, I'm going to call it the Mayor Brody trope where there's like an obvious villain in the movie where it's Lecter and Bill, but like Chilton's kind of like the villain and it's kind of like Mayor Brody and Jaws where you're like, this fucking guy. He's going to keep the beaches open. God damn it.

But Jaws is the villain, but you're like, ah, God, Mayor Brody. You know, we did Poltergeist for the rewatchables that's going up tonight, and the evil land developer is the same kind of villain in that. Yeah. Where he's like, ah, we're just going to move the tombstones, put the houses on there. But the Poltergeist is the villain, but he's actually the villain. Yeah, when Chilton's listening in on them and then switches the deal up, you're like, you bastard, man.

Yeah. Mal, what do you have? Oh, man. We've talked about a lot of them. The visual framings, like not just the way that the characters are looking directly into the camera, but like the fact that they switched from using bars in the cell to using glass. So then there's always a reflection of either Clarice or Lecter, depending on who's looking. The music, I mean, both the Howard Shore score and the needle drops, incredible. The poster, the movie poster is absolutely iconic. I have it too. I mean, that's an incredible one.

Okay, what about Easter eggs? Now, we're in an IP era. This isn't like an MCU movie. But Quietly, a really good Easter egg movie because you have, like, you want to pause when you're watching it and say, like, what's on the whiteboard? What's in the notebook? You want to read the microfiche article about Hannibal Lecter's astonishing medical achievements in the great city of Baltimore where he was thriving, you know? Yeah.

The bulletin board, like that's all really fun. James Gunn's dungeon. I was freeze framing things all over the place. Big for you. It's like, oh, leather room. The structural changes that they made, like the way they edited down the movie and altered the movie, that's all very good. Like cutting the disciplinary hearing. Right. Not putting that in. Making the switch so that the watch your corner scene isn't what opens the movie. Good choices. What do you have, Sean? I've just written down cannibals.

Cannibals. I feel like this kicks off a wave of cannibal culture. It's still going. Yeah. Army Hammer is like, I'm in. Is this movie before? Let's go. Silence of the Lambs is before Alive, right? It is. Yeah. Those poor guys. Shout out to Craig Horlbeck. Pro cannibal. What's aged the best?

I like double-ending movies where you're like, oh, the movie's over. Oh, it's actually not over. We have another ending. I love murder movies where they have to put that white odor deterrent spray under the nostrils where you're like, I wish I had that in college for some of the roommates I had. Yeah.

We mentioned the single camera close-ups. So if you notice, when they're talking to Clarice, they look right in the camera. When she's talking, she's like a little bit to the right of the camera because they want it from her perspective. That's some fucking film school shit right there, Sean. Thank you, Bill. The Lester Max mass stretcher, I just loved.

Quid pro quo, Clarice. Yeah, it's good. I feel like that became a little bit of a, like entered the lingo a little bit. Phrase went into the zeitgeist. Quid pro quo, yeah. You mentioned using clear glass in Lecter's thing instead of bars. It was really smart. They actually, they didn't like the way the bars looked, so they messed around with it. Night goggles. This was really the heyday of night goggles, leading to Rick Solomon and Paris Hilton. This was like phase one. Phase two was Paris Hilton right after.

Then they kind of went out of style and then they came back in with Zero Dark Thirty. That's right. And Sikoria. Yeah. The first person you murder is the one you covet as a theory. Is this true, CR? There's lots of schools of thought on this. With your murdering? And then this is my favorite. So they make Manhunter, a movie that we all love, especially CR. Yeah.

Manhunter doesn't do well in the theater somehow. Michael Mann, William Peterson. I loved it, but it didn't do well at Bond. Logan Roy as Lecter? Yeah, it's fucking good. It didn't do well, so then they're making this movie and they go to Manhunter producer Dino De Laurentiis and they're like, can we buy the Lecter rights so we can make this? And he's like, just take it. Doesn't get anything. He's a Hollywood producer. Gets no juice, no points, anything. Just gives it to them.

But the rights to this whole franchise are all over the place. Right. About who can mention what. The shows especially, Clarice and Hannibal had a hard time with this. They're like the X-Men. Do you want to do the Goldman story? You do it. So they have a screening for 75 Hollywood people of a pretty much locked final cut. And Jonathan Demme has a story. William Goldman was there. He's one of the great screenwriters. Sean named his podcast after his book, The Big Picture.

And he sees that he really likes it. He calls Demi the next day and he says, hey, it's William Goldman. I thought the movie was terrific, but there's one scene holding it back. And it's this whole 12-minute scene where Crawford gets kicked off the case. Clarice gets kicked off the case and they have a hearing. And there's this whole moment outside with Clarice and Crawford.

Which I think is online, right? It's on YouTube? Is it somewhere? All the deleted scenes are. Yeah. Yeah. And it's this whole, and it's like the scene with Crawford and Clarice that you feel like there's a scene missing with them the whole movie. And this is the scene. And Goldman says, take it out. And Demi's like, what? That's one of the biggest scenes of the movie. Why would I take it out? And he's like, that's what my gut's telling me. You guys should really take a look at it.

So they screened the movie again. They just cut the scene. They watch it. And Goldman was right. And they took it out. And it was like 12 minutes. It made the movie. But it's a good little movie lesson. Sometimes you have to kill your babies, as they say. And by that point, the movie is moving so fast that when they give it to the Justice Department, they give the case to the Justice Department to take over, you're like, sure. Yeah. Right. They screwed up.

It's also a movie that is a perfect length the way that it is right now. Yeah. Just two hours. It's under two hours. Now it'd be like 15 episodes. It would just be on right. Like the Menendez Brothers was nine episodes. I watched all night. Just some quick awards. We have the Fortune 3 Clap Award for most gif-able moment. I think it's Charles Napier screaming. Ah!

Isn't it Lecter doing the smelling thing? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Could be that. Could be any jam gum. There's a lot of stuff. Tuck dance? It's got tuck dance. It has to be. Yeah. Has to be. Crowd wants tuck dance. You put that up on Twitter after the Celtics won the finals, right? Tuck dance gif? Yeah. Me tonight? Yeah. Like...

Goodbye, Mavericks. Don't applaud him.

Great shot, Gorder Award, most cinematic shots here. I love the angel, like the guy. I had that too. Also, that's a lot of work for Lecter. Did he have police? I know. You know, I had that in nitpicks, but we should do it now. The guy's five feet in the air. Five? It looks like he's on the ceiling. It's insane. He definitely snuck out and went to Home Depot, bought a ladder. Yeah.

got some rope it's pretty elaborate sean also there's only two guards because he also gets the body on top of the elevator so he's got the elevator and he strings the guy up so there were only two guards watching one of the most notorious serial killers in american history who is being transported well people are bringing him bloody lamb chops on demand like personal postmates so you know it's

bulking up lots of protein. And Catherine Martin, you know, she's just the junior senator from Tennessee. What are we even doing here? Right. You don't think she has that kind of pull? It is kind of amazing to imagine like all the cops on the first floor just being like, hey, did you see Anthony Hardaway last week? Pretty good. Donuts last week? Worrying about not hearing from Jim Pembrey for the last three hours?

Well, because he's got to open the elevator doors, shove the guy out so he lands perfectly on top of the elevator, throw the gun down there so the gun doesn't roll off. Then he's got to lift Lieutenant Boyle up, make him a butterfly, disembowel him. This took like five days. What were they doing?

If I was a detective after that, like after seeing Silence of the Lambs, I think every time I came across a dead body, I'd be like, just check the face real quick. Just make sure it's still... Tug the cheeks. That's the guy, right? He didn't put his face on someone else's face. I will say from Lecter's perspective though, he's been in that room for eight years. So he's been cooking up some ideas. He's like, if they ever let me out of this bitch, I'm going to do some wild stuff. Yeah, he thought of the face thing. Exactly. Yeah.

Threw it at Migs. Migs was like, sounds great. The Den of Thieves Benihana Award for a scene-stealing location has to be Buffalo Bill's dungeon, right? Buffalo Bill Cribs. That's what I had. Kid Cudi Pursuit of Happiness Award. I think we have co-winners because American Girl by Tom Petty, but then Goodbye Horses. I don't want to pick. It has to be Goodbye Horses. Two classics. It has to be Goodbye Horses, right?

That's like one of the iconic visuals from the movie. That's the best. I mean, it's unbelievable. I would also throw out Hip Priest by The Falls playing when they go into the basement. And it's also like, when did Bill put this Fall album on? Like, hold on. Clary Starling's at my door. Let me put The Fall on. I think Erasure and The Smiths were like, what the fuck? We're right here. How are we not in this movie?

The Big Kahuna Burger where Bessie has to food or drink has to be the ultra rare lamb chops. I mean, come on. His second dinner. Those look so gross. We rarely get to give this out. The Brandy Booth Award for Best Performance by a Pet.

Brandy Booth was in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. A really important performance in Brad Pitt's trailer. So Precious wins this. Precious has like a real IMDb. She was played by Darla. Darla, yeah. 17 years on the earth, big career. Was in Pee-wee's Big Adventure and The Birb and Batman Returns. Yeah. Batman Returns.

Darla, no longer with us. Will Darla come up in Apex Mountain? There's no question. Given that filmography? No question. All right, the Butch's Girlfriend Award for the weak link of the film. I'll save mine. Do you have one, CR? I honestly don't have a Butch's Girlfriend for this movie. All right, do you have one, Mel?

I have two candidates. You can have CRs. Do you? One of them I think will be covered in Picking Nits, which is more about the nature of the FBI investigation. All right, save that. And Crawford's will save that. Great movie. It's a classic. Love it. Glad we're talking about it tonight. The mystery box puzzle nature of the film is a little, I think, comparatively clunky.

Compared to the rest of the movie. Coming after Demi and Tom Harris. Look deep within yourself. There's a your self storage in Baltimore. Your anagrams are showing Hester Moffat, the rest of me, Louis Friend, Iron Sulfite.

You're not an anagram lady. No, I love an anagram. I love a riddle. I love a puzzle. But I think it either needs to be like more or less of the movie. Like Clarice is the only person who's tracking it, which is the point, right? That's there to like heighten the bond. So that part of it I like. But are the viewers at home tracking this stuff, do we think? Well, this is the best part about the movies. You can watch it and just be like, ah, sure, she's figuring this out. Or...

You can like go crazy and go online and be like, oh, so like in the beginning, because like a lot of people online have pointed out that the view from the Duomo at the Belvedere and James lives in Belvedere, Ohio. It's like he's given her the clues the whole time. See CR just sneaking Trump in there a little bit. A lot of people online are pointing it out. Did you see that on Truth Social? Just try to keep it low, CR. Do you have a weak link?

Just point of order, is the weak link more like a performance or more like an issue with the story? This is your 280th what we watch. Well, because Mal just threw me for a loop because usually it's like, it's this actress who is a piece of shit and should never appear in a film. I hate her hair! Next category. Why don't we just remove her from Hollywood entirely? I'll do mine. What's that? I'll do mine and you can decide. So mine is also doubles as the Vincent Chase Award for are we sure this person was good at their job?

Jack Crawford. That's what I had. This is mine too, so go ahead. Pick someone to talk to Hannibal the Cannibal who's only in the top quarter of her class. Go with the valedictorian, Jack. This is the scariest person in America.

Couldn't be greener. Has no experience. Jack Crawford okays a fake deal for Lecter. Lecter's a genius. He sniffed that one out. And when they confront him on it, he's like, ah, I thought I'd give it a shot. Yeah. No choice. It's like he tried an onside kick. Ah, I didn't think they'd be ready. He...

Never realizes that maybe the first victim was somebody Buffalo Bill knew. Just completely blindsided by that one. Storm's the wrong house as Clarissa's going to the real James Gumm's house. Terrible. And then she's so poorly trained, even though she's in the academy, she just wanders into the dungeon.

She doesn't wander. Dark dungeon. Goes down there. What could go wrong? There's 19 different rooms. He could have jumped out at any time and shot her. Jack Crawford, out. He's like Sean McDermott and Zach Taylor yesterday. Just terrible job by him. This was mine as well. And the question was, is Jack Crawford the most reckless government employee of all time? There you go. All right. We agree.

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What's aged the worst? So the sequel, Jodi did not do it.

Apparently, there was... The original script had Lechter and Clarice kind of got involved a little bit. Do you want me to tell you what happens? Yeah, go ahead. I don't want to spoil Hannibal for people. No, please spoil it. The movie's... The novel of Hannibal...

They offered this to Jodi and it was a very faithful adaptation of the novel. And in the novel, Lecter and Clarice begin a relationship where she has undergone intensive psychotropic... She's taking LSD and is with Lecter and has replaced his sister who he also was in love with when he was a child. And they have a relationship and they move to Buenos Aires and they're just together. And she was like, fuck that.

I'm not doing that. And then they changed the script to make it much more palatable and Julianne Moore did it and Jodie Foster was basically like, oh, I would have done that. And as we covered, Hopkins was like, how much? Eight? And then they do the prequel in O2, which is an abomination where they go backwards. They remake Manhunter, a good movie. Yeah.

Like, within 15 years of when Manhunter came out. And then Hopkins is now playing himself. Even though he's 11 years older, he's in a prequel with Hannibal. So it's somehow 20... It's an abomination. Morewood's Aged Wars. The opening credit graphics. This is just a bad time for credit graphics. Early 90s. Just a lot of, like, big, splashy, awful fonts. You notice that? I didn't know you were such a font head. I...

It's the aesthetics. I don't like blocking the character's faces. He doesn't like blocking characters' faces. He doesn't like fluids being thrown at him. You want to do your criminal profiling thing here? It turns out that might not work. Yeah. The biggest theme in the movie, that criminal profiling and thinking it through and unlocking. No, it doesn't work. Let me just say up front, are there any criminal profilers in the audience today? I don't want to denigrate your profession. Or serial killers.

It sounds like that has fallen. The idea of you just being like, he's 30, he has a complicated relationship with his mother, and he will unbutton his top button is not a real thing. During the 2024 presidential campaign, Donald Trump repeatedly referenced Hannibal Lecter during his immigrants are cannibals routine. Yeah. I'm going to throw that in what's aged the worst. Yeah.

Jody's accent is, we mentioned it earlier, but I think that has to be in there. What else do you have? You know, it's like you don't really see serial killers using anagrams a lot. And I guess this is kind of something, it's the worst, but I kind of miss it. It would be kind of sick to open up the paper and be like, let's all solve this puzzle together. It's Wordle's long con. Wordle? Wordle?

There's a story. This is a Wood Sage. So they use this guy, John Douglas, who wrote a couple good serial killer books in the 90s that I remember reading and really enjoying. But he was helping Scott Glenn out, who played Jack Crawford. And Scott Glenn was like, hey, thanks for letting me into your world. He's like, oh, you weren't in my world. You want to see my world? I'll show you. And he played him.

an audio tape of these two serial killers doing horrible things to two victims. And apparently Glenn listened to it for less than a minute and he's been scarred for life ever since. And which is, he never heard it and mentions it every time he gives an interview of this movie that he cannot unhear the 50 seconds of terrible things that he heard. And John Douglas is the basis of the Jonathan Groff character in my, yeah. Yeah.

So then there's some transphobia stuff with this movie that was actually a storyline when it came out. And it's really interesting in the research because Demi was very careful saying that the character was not transsexual and it was somebody searching for all kinds of different identities. But all the protests that ended up... He was kind of heartbroken by it and it was one of the reasons he made Philadelphia. And Jodie Foster said...

I feel like he was really heartbroken that he didn't make it clear enough in the film. If there was a gnawing part of him, I think he really did understand where the controversy came from, that he didn't do as good a job as make his attentions clear, and that he would have gone back and revised it. So the theory is that's why he did Philadelphia. So we're going to mention that and move on. The Ruffalo-Hannah-Rubinick-Partridge...

Overacting award. Is there overacting in this other than Charles Napier? I think Anthony Hill dials it up a couple of times with the eyebrows and stuff. I think Brooke Smith also, as Catherine, you know, she's... Let me out of here, you fucking bitch! That's so good. Brooke Smith. I would love for you to give her the note, like, dial it down a little bit, Brooke. I know you're going to be murdered, but just relax.

Hold on to your seats, everyone, because it is time. An award we only give out when Mally Rubin is on the podcast. Oh, my God. You people are perverts. The Mally Rubin Award for Did This Movie Need a Better Sex Scene? Mal, you have the floor. Well, I wish I had heard Chris drop the childhood incest nugget earlier, you know, before we came on stage. I think that if this movie had come out in the era of the webisode,

Which, lamentably, it didn't. The webisode? The webisode. Bonus content. Some extra features on the DVD. Marketing campaign in the lead-up to the release. Welcome to Migs' masturbatorium. Oh, yeah. Oh, no. New webisode every day. That's my fantasy football name. I can't believe you came up with that. So just self-love, not like any two characters. Solo stuff, like OnlyFans kind of stuff. Yeah, I don't think this...

Sure. You think Megs would crush on OnlyFans? I know. He's a pretty virile guy. In the scene, are we seeing Megs do the work or are we seeing his fantasies? She's still workshopping it.

Interesting. Interesting. Take a moment with that. Do anything in the world to have heard Bill Goldman weigh in on like, Jonathan, I noticed you have a webisode about Migs' Masturbatorium. I think you should lose that. Cut that. Less is more. Just the once. Was there a better title for this movie? No. No. No. Okay. Migs' Masturbatorium? No? The CR thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford. Hottest take award.

Still hasn't been topped. What do you have, C.R.? Lector's an incredible therapist. Yes. I mean, three sessions completely solves the childhood trauma. Like, I have friends who have been in therapy for like 17 years. They're like, I think we're really making progress. You know, like, it's just like, Lector's just like, here's who you are. Here's what your dad did. Lambs, you're good.

Now you're Elliot Ness. You think he could have gotten a job at BetterHelp? Just in the glass cell, just helping people.

What do you have, Mal? Yeah, he would have thrived in the Zoom era. Oh, no question. Remote communication. I already gave mine. I think that Catherine, I know the movie hinges on her rescue. I believe that she should have died because of what she did to Precious. All right. Sean? Yeah, I also said Hopkins' Oscar is fraudulent. He should have gotten the supporting actor and Jack Palin should have died without an Academy Award. Jesus.

Mine's pretty lame. I just don't think this is Hopkins' greatest performance. I actually think it's The Father. It's not like the most fun take. Bill, that take sucks. That is insane. That's why it's hot. I think he's really good in The Father. Are you familiar with his TikTok? Because that's actually where he's doing his best work. Have you seen this? His webisodes. Yeah, with his cat who I want to... I think is named Sir Niplo.

Maybe. What? Yeah. And he posts these really incredible TikToks where he plays piano with his cat. They get millions of views. And that is Anthony Hopkins' Apex Mountain. This is Malzahn cat TikTok. That's how you know about this. Casting what ifs. We have some good ones here. Oh, man. So Gene Hackman partnered with the film studio to adapt the novel. And he was going to direct and play Lecter or Crawford. And then his daughter read the book and was like, you're not fucking doing that.

Would we have gotten Horny Hackman for this? I can't tell. I thought that the story that I read was that he partnered with the studio and that he was going to produce it and star as Crawford and that he read Ted Talley's script and he was like, this is pretty violent. Did you read the book? Yeah. You optioned the book to do it. You were also in French Connection. That's a good point. Paul Verhoeven claimed that he turned it down and that he has a lot of regrets.

I would like to see his version of this movie. It would have been hornier, I'll tell you that much. Probably more Migs. We could have gotten the masturbatorium. Demi really wanted Sean Connery for Lector, and Connery turned him down. But the good news is we get to hear CR do Sean Connery as Lector right now. I'm just putting you on the spot. I know you can do it, CR. I ate his fava beans with a nice Chianti.

You did it on the last pod. It was pretty amazing. Did I? You did Conrad. I don't remember anything that happened before COVID. So Demi wanted Michelle Pfeiffer because they worked together and married to the mob. And as people listening to the Rewatchables know, she's my queen. She got nervous about the subject matter and turned it down. And I'm upset. Michelle Pfeiffer is Clarice. Yes or no? No. Why? I do think it does what...

Some people feared it would do. And it's something that like, for example, in the book, Crawford and Clarice have a relationship and that he's a married man and they're having a relationship. And if that's the story that they were going to tell, having a more openly sexual actress like Michelle Pfeiffer might've made sense. But the whole point of Clarice is that she's like this closed system, you know, that she is working through the case unencumbered by all that other stuff. So it just is a different movie. Counter. Have you seen her in dangerous minds? Touche. She taught a whole classroom how to read. Yeah.

While wearing a leather jacket. It was amazing. Are you guys both out on Michelle Pfeiffer's Clarice? I'm more in on Jodie Foster. It's an incredible performance. Well, I'm always team Michelle Pfeiffer at all times. He also approached Meg Ryan, who turned it down because it was too gruesome. And then, this is weird. This was in the research. Molly Ringwald auditioned but was deemed too young. Who would have been more frightening for her to act with? Judd Nelson or Hannibal Lecter as...

Anthony Hopkins as Hannibal Lecter. So then they pushed for Jodie Foster over Lord Dern. Then the only other one was Ed Harris turned down the role of Jack Crawford because he didn't find the role interesting. It's not a very interesting role. Yeah. Counter. Get over yourself, Ed. It's a fucking five Oscar movie. Then he did The Rock. You were The Rock. You were in The Firm. This was like...

Did you read all the other lector names, though? I don't never know it. They basically listed every white actor from the late 80s or early 90s. This is the problem with casting. We do the research, and then Bill's like, I don't believe that. It's like, Kurt Russell, Dana Day-Lewis, Tom Hanks. They just list every actor. So you buy the Ed Harris story, but you don't buy the...

Daniel Day-Lewis, Al Pacino, Robert De Niro. Now, this is what tells me this is true. Derek Jacoby, the famous Shakespearean actor, and Forrest Whitaker publicly said that he auditioned for this part and didn't get it. Forrest Whitaker would be a fascinating curveball from the Hannibal Lecter that we know. I mean, Pacino would have been amazing. Yeah. Oh, my God. I was having coffee with Biggs a half an hour ago! Uh...

Love your suit! Wow, best that guy. So is Anthony Heald eligible for this or is he Anthony Heald? He's Dr. Chilton. He's not Anthony Heald. He's not Anthony Heald? He's that guy. There are seven people here tonight who know his name. Is Charles Napier Charles Napier or is he that guy from Rambo and the Judge of Philadelphia? I would say he's a that guy except...

He appears in almost every Jonathan Demme movie. Yeah. He's put him in almost every movie. So if you're like, I'm a Demme head, then he's definitely Charles Napier. Can we go Frankie Faison here? I kind of feel like he's Frankie Faison though. All right. Because of The Wire. So Migs was played by Stuart Rudin, but I don't think he's that guy because we've never seen him again and he might still be in that cell. Senator Martin was played by Diane Baker, who seems familiar, but I had no idea. Huge TV actress. Yeah. And she was in The Diary of Anne Frank when she was a kid.

But I think the winner is Catherine Martin because she ended up on Grey's Anatomy. Yeah. Right?

Brooke Smith. You know who popped out to me when I watched it this time and I never realized? You know the two... The butterfly guys? The butterfly guys? One of those guys, Dan Butler, Roden, was Bulldog from Frasier, the producer. Oh, Jesus. The other host. He's also weird. I think he's in Manhunter, if I remember correctly. He's like in the FBI office and manager when Farina's like, get me a chopper. That one? So he got to be in both. Dion Waiters...

It's pretty boring because Buffalo Bill's going to win. But we also have Migs. We have Catherine Martin. We have Chris Isaac. We have the two butterfly experts. And we have FBI weird super thin mustache guy. What's up with that mustache, CR? Would you test that one out? I've been trying since COVID. I can't get it going. How do you shave that? I can barely shave this that's on my face right now. He just has this long line mustache. How do people do that?

I'm always so envious when people can shave well like that. Anyway, Buffalo Bill is our easy, easy winner. Recasting couch director or city? I don't know if I would change anything in this movie. It's in so many cities, too. But they shot mostly in Pittsburgh. I find that enraging that it's largely set in Baltimore but filmed in Pittsburgh. What the fuck? Slap in the face of Baltimore? Yeah, it's ridiculous. All right.

Tony Romo, Chris Collinsworth, or someone else for the director's commentary. Who do you have, CR? I'll do Collinsworth. I did the work this time. I've been watching some Collinsworth tape. Watched a YouTube compilation called Listen to Chris Collinsworth Glaze Patrick Mahomes for Six Minutes. Oh, my. It's some story, this guy. Multiple migs. Here he goes, lying prone. I'm thinking, take the sack.

No, I'll throw a touchdown instead. Oh my God. Wow. Who do you have now? I mean, I always like to go with Romo, mostly because I hope I'll get to hear Chris impersonate Romo saying, ganty. Oh. Come on. If it was Romo, I was going to be like, he's going to tuck it in, Jim. Yeah.

Anthrax Island, Jim. Here's the question. It's Goodbye Horses is playing, Jim. Oh, it's Q Lazarus, Jim. Watch Q Lazarus. When are you going to introduce Brady into the mix? It's too boring. Too boring. Yeah. My pick for this was Doris Burke. And not just because Zach Lowe is here. Shout out to Zach Lowe. He's somewhere in there. Oh. Oh.

This tortured genius was waiting for a size 14 to climb into his van for weeks, Mike. Months and months of hard work sewing a human skin suit and it's all paying off. I see you, Mr. Gum. Doris. Any pick, Sean, or should we move on? I think you should consider putting Joe Buck in for the five word descriptions of scenes. Migs! Ejaculate! Touchdown! Touchdown!

Bill, you don't want to do Belichick from one of his eight pods? Oh, my God. He's going to be coach of Jacksonville in about a week. All right, half-assed research. Just some quick ones. The Lector mask was created by a guy in Jersey named Ed Cumberley who made masks for NHL goalkeepers. Oh, wow. And they were like, let's get this goalie guy in Jersey. He's like, I got you. Buffalo Bills house is in Periopolis, Pennsylvania. Heard of it? No. No.

Went up for sale in August 2015 for $300,000. And you guys aren't going to believe this, but it sat on the market for a year. Not a lot of takers. It sold for $195,000 in 2016. You like living there, CR? What is it like?

yeah I think you have to account for mortgage rates at that point though but I watched a YouTube video of a guy who does guided tours through the house and he has a Buffalo Bill t-shirt he's like Buffalo Bill is my favorite movie character ever and I was like I mean you're committed to the bit man I hope yeah I hope they let him keep doing tours there forever so gum's penchant for skinniest victims and crafting a human suit came from Ed Gein

And keeping victims in a pit in his basement, that came from Gary Hednick. So shout out to those guys. Some Catherine Martin stuff. Brooke Smith gained 25 pounds to become a size 14 and then became actual buddies on the set with Ted Levine.

And they hung out all the time, and Jody used to make Patty Hearst jokes about them because they were hanging out. And then years later, the prop lady dropped off the bottle of lotion with a note that said, it puts the lotion on its skin, it does this whenever it's told, J-Gum. That would fucking scare the hell out of me. Super creepy and weird. Honestly, can you imagine? So then Lieutenant Boyle's body hanging from the cell was inspired by the work of painter Francis Bacon.

I know he's excited. And then the final scene. Final scene was filmed on North Bimini Island, Bahamas. That's where Lecter was. Okay. Apex Mountain. Yeah. Sean Demme, would you go Philadelphia? It's gotta be because he wins best director and this movie is a smash hit, but this is a better movie than Philadelphia, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think it's this.

Hopkins, yes. Yes. Or the TikToks with the cat, one or the other. Or the father, apparently. Yeah. That's a great movie. Father's a good movie. You just got to get in touch with your feelings. It's Silence of the Lambs. We're not doing the father rewatch. It's amazing in the father. Serial killer movies, Apex Mountain? I was going to say, yeah. I would say, I mean, you could make... What's the competition? Seven? Seven. Oh, Zodiac. Yeah. Stepping on my programming for later, bro. Jodie Foster?

I think Jodie Foster's Apex Mountain is in this most recent season of True Detective when she and Christopher Eccleston are fucking on the desk in the hotel room and he's about to come and she screams, don't you dare! That's great. Sadly, I knew where that was going 14 seconds ago. That is definitively not her Apex Mountain. Q Lazarus, definitely. I didn't even...

That wasn't in heavy rotation for you for this. Poodles? Oh. Oh. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Poodles. I'm trying to think of another one. Best in Show? Oh, Best in Show. Best in Show. That's a great one. Great call. Disemboweling an empty security guard? Have we ever done better? I definitely think it's Apex Mountain for wearing another guy's face, right? Yeah. Okay. But not for... All right. All right.

All right. What is it? It's Texas Chainsaw Massacre. You're right. What about Mission Impossible? But he doesn't take... Face off? Face off. Are you really wearing it when it's been stitched into your body? I don't know. Yeah, it's more like you're wearing it as a brief mask. I mean, face off, it was the title of the movie and the entire plot. But it's not like a hat in that movie, you know? They're going into surgery.

Chris Isaac, definitely. Butterflies? Wait, wait, wait. Chris Isaac? You think this is his apex mountain? Well, it's coming off the Wicked Game. He's got this. He's got an agent and a manager. He just bought a house. It's feeling great. It's like you're dating Helena Christensen and you got the biggest song in the world, but it's like you're going to be a SWAT guy in this movie. Yeah. It's like this is going to lead to more stuff, Chris. Just do the part. Scott Glenn, no. Butterflies?

Crazy Town Song, Butterfly. It's a lot. Come, my lady. Come, come, my lady. Sort of a mixed anthem. Yes. Good stuff. Francis Bacon homages? For sure. I'm going to say yes. How about if somebody, if you're eating dinner and somebody orders lamb chops extra rare, you think of this movie and then assume that they're also a murderer. Is this Apex Mountain for lamb chops? Yeah, I think so. Ted Levine, definitely. Night Goggles. It's this or...

Rick Solomon in the finals? I don't know. Probably this. Oh. Oh, Jurassic Park. That's really good feedback. The tuck dance, definitely. And then... It's so close to the tuck rule every time you see it. I imagine Brady going like that. Wouldn't it be such a good touchdown celebration, though, if someone like did the tuck dance? You know, like Jamar Chase just dropped that next Sunday. Wouldn't that be incredible? Yeah.

I can't believe Kyle Hamilton ran that all the way back. He's doing the tuck in. Oh, no. He's chucking it in. The 1979 Dodge Tradesman Maxi Van. Yeah. That was James Gunn's car. Yeah. I'm going to say it picks up on that. Cruz or Hanks for Lecter? Polarizing category every time we do it. This is obviously Cruz, right? I think Cruz can play every male part in this movie, convincingly. All right, let's just talk this out. Okay. Yeah.

We're trying to win Oscars. We're trying to win the big five. You're telling me this movie is better with Tom Cruise, an actor that I love, who I think leads for most rewatchable movies right now. Is it him or Pacino? I think it's Cruise. It's Cruise. I think Cruise has had the most. You're buying him as Hannibal Lecter. Yes. Tom Cruise. America's uncle, Tom Hanks, or ice cold weirdo, Tom Cruise. Yeah.

Who am I love? Yeah. What do you think, Bao? I think Hanks would be a great Crawford. That makes the movie, like, better, right? Because he's wonderful as Crawford. I do believe that Cruise would have played a compelling Migs. Cruise. All right, so we're going Cruise. Cruise's prep for Migs would be unbelievable.

That would be a webisode. It's like the nine months getting ready. I like your Cruz could play every male part in the movie take. That's strong. Racehorse, rock band, wrestler, fantasy team name. I'm going to give you Lotion in the Basket. Yes, that's the pick. Tuck Dancers.

Desperately Random or Jame Gumballs? Well, what about Goodbye Horses? What about Hester Moffat? Hester Moffat's a great racehorse name. So what's the best? It's lotion in the basket. I think Tuck Dance is the best racehorse name possible. Tuck Dance. Here comes Tuck Dance! Yeah.

Can I add a little something to that category? Yeah. One last thing I would add to it is, best name you would want to check into a hotel with? I thought Louis Friend would be an amazing hotel name. Louis Friend. Yeah. The fake name that he gives. Now you guys know how to find Sean out on the road. Yeah. All right. We're in the home stretch here. And this is the best part because we're going to pick some nits. So...

You got, you got, I have a bunch. CR, give me one. Chilton's got like 600 rules for going to meet Lector. And then when he goes down there, he's just like, what's the sharpest thing that I am holding? I'm going to make this great deal with Catherine Martin's mom and I'm going to get a promote. And then he just leaves the pen. It's just like, you would just be like, do I have the pointy object that I brought into this? So that always drove me crazy. And then obviously like,

Helping people move couches just if your best friend's doesn't happen anymore. So like you would not help a guy in a cast at night pick up a couch and put it in. With nobody around? With nobody around. What do you got, Mal? So the idea is Buffalo Bill is starving his victims for three days to loosen the skin.

I don't understand then why he's feeding Catherine. She says it's scraps, but like she needs that bone to lure Precious. Why does she have any food? The whole point is that he's starving her. This doesn't make any sense. It's a great point. I have no counter. I'm trying to come up with a counter. I can't. She's just throwing like almonds down there or something. She has like a tray of barbecue on her lap. It's just scraps. I only had one chicken wing, one thigh, some mashed potatoes.

Who did cornbread? It's absurd. The moths. I do have some notes here for just our investigators in general. Nobody until Clarice spots a cocoon in the throats of the victims? Nobody? What kind of shoddy work are they doing? The guy also was the funeral parlor organist. I mean, he was spread pretty thin. Double duty. He had killed five.

Victims already. There are newspapers everywhere. Nobody spots a moth in the throat. This is absurd. The fact that every victim has a different part of skin removed, right? We've got the arm peeled. We've got the back. Nobody's thinking human suit? I just think you should. It's just not the distance between the two points is not that far. Clarice can solve any anagram, but somehow can't piece together back.

Knee. What about everybody else? She's the one who finally figures it out. At least nobody else at the fucking FBI figures out he's making a suit out of the skin. Nobody. I have some big ones for the escape. Yeah. Yes. First of all, this is the most notorious criminal in America. So dangerous he's on his own floor of this building. No cameras.

It's like 20 bucks to buy one long security camera. The fucking two security guards had one job. Just one. Just deliver them the food and don't get killed. They lose. And then...

And this is, the worst of this is Shawshank when he exchanges his shoes and the suit with the warden and he's seven inches taller than the warden. Like, it's just, but Lecter just fitting into cop number two's clothes perfectly and his face. What are the odds, honestly? Like, 10 to 1? Just the guy's a perfect fit? Some elegant surgical work getting that face off cleanly.

How did he do that? What did he do it with? Yeah, he went... It seems like he went around and up. Yeah, he's got that guy's little switchblade. But this person... He's done this before. You're like, just writing this off. You're like, oh, well, he had a knife. And then how does he hang him up? We talked about Lieutenant Boyle's five feet up in the air. Somehow he's got no help. Well, he's a genius, so I assume he understands, like, vectors and force and things like that, right? That part I was actually okay with. The paramedics. Yeah. Yeah.

The paramedics, medical professionals, now I am not a medical professional. They can't, they're like duped by the fake seizure and the idea, the premise of facial lacerations. They can't tell this is a completely alive, fine, healthy person. Like, yeah.

What? I'll go one step further. So Hannibal Lecter is one of the world's great psychologists and great thinkers about the human mind, and he's presented as somebody who can potentially help the case just by understanding the profile of a killer. But it turns out that he just knew the guy? Yeah. What the fuck are the odds of that? This is my criminal profile. It kind of went downhill. He was like, yeah, I treated this guy as a patient once. He was weird. I never forgot him. He's in my Orioles chat room. What kind of a mystery is that?

We talked about the wing bucket trick to snatch precious. They don't show it. It seems pretty, I don't know, dogs, especially small dogs are pretty skittish. You really have to pull that bucket with enough force. I just would. I just wanted to see it. Yeah, I guess that all of a sudden the dogs in the dungeon and it seems like a miracle. You got to get the dog scene back in there. You should have done Collinsworth with Catherine pulling the dog in. Um,

Migs died by swallowing his own tongue, which if you research this, which sadly I had to, I'm probably going to get a virus, but it's impossible to do. Your body, you physically can't swallow your own tongue. So we had to cut his own tongue off and then choke on it. Your Google history for this prep was, can you swallow your own tongue and how do you make fake cum? And how do you throw your cum was another thing I Googled. Okay. Yeah.

My two biggest nitpicks, though. So Lecter wants Chianti with liver and fava beans, right? Yeah. Are you about to break out a wine pairing? Is Wine Guy about to log on? Wine Guy's here, everybody. Terrible choice.

I researched this, and he should have said something sweeter, like a Zinfandel, a Shiraz, a Coturon. Yeah. Chianti, not a good choice. I feel like Lecter's a little fraudulent with throwing around the wine. This is before sideways, so do you think, like, the American palate was kind of a little more primitive back then? You don't put Chianti with liver. Terrible job by Lecter. And then...

This is the one that gets me the most. Lecter's just completely offended by Miggs' cum-throwing. This has violated some sort of human behavior rule for him. His name is Hannibal the Cannibal. He literally eats people. And he's like, ah, the cum-throwing, I don't know. Miggs, really offensive. Gotta have a code, you know? He just thought it was rude. Again, he's a cannibal. Anything else before we move on? Did Buffalo Bill know that he had captured a senator's daughter?

If you're a criminal mastermind, that's kind of a broad target. He didn't turn on the TV and was like, oh, shit. But I think that does speak to when Cleary shows up. I think he wants the notoriety. It's kind of like Red Dragon and Manhunter. Oh, so you think he got the clippings? I think he did it on purpose. Yeah, he was doing it for clicks. Wow. Engagement farming, Buffalo Bill. Any other nitpicks?

Sequel, prequel, prestige TV, all black cast are untouchable is the next category. Well, we've had a prequel. We've had a sequel. We've had two TV series. Hannibal and Clarice. I didn't even remember the Clarice TV series. I watched a couple of Clarice episodes. Who was in that? I can't remember. It was on CBS. Fucking Megs. Nothing. Yeah. Yet. Nothing. Coming this fall on Apple TV. Buffalo Bill prequel. Nothing. Origin story.

All right. Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Trejo, Sam Jackson, JT Walsh, Byron Mayo, Harley Mays, Evo Laffey, Ramon Raymond, or Philip Baker Hall? I mean, it's definitely better with Byron Mayo. What do you got, CR? But if Wayne was to do this, I'm sorry to my wife.

Biggs? Yeah. I didn't know I was working with Super Seed Tosser. You're spreading it around like Philip Rivers. The fucking seed word dropped. You better put that thing away or Lecter's going to have you swallowing your tongue for a long fucking time, big boy. Oh, man. And, you know, it's meaningful because of the Baltimore connection. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we had to do Wayne for Baltimore. Yeah.

Just one Oscar. Who gets it, Sean? Can only hand out one. I thought long and hard about this, and I went with Jodie Foster. Really? Yeah. Over Demi, over picture. This is the year of JFK, and I think there's a case for JFK in Best Picture, but I don't think there's a case for anybody else in Best Actress, and I think this is Jodie Foster's best performance ever. That's a random? She's amazing in Thelma movies. She's great. Quality. What do you have now? Hopkins.

The guy who did the font. I would do movie. What's that? Movie. Best picture? Yeah. Probably unanswerable questions. Oh, boy. Was Miggs his first name or his last name? Oh, yeah. So I'm going to give you some choices here. Was he Miggs Robinson or was he like Johnny Miggs? Johnny Miggs is amazing. Johnny Miggs.

Migs like Brooks Robinson? Yeah. Migs Jackson? Would you go first name or last name for Migs? What if it's just a nickname? Like his name is like Miguel? Or what if it's more just like Prince or like Madonna? He's one name? Like Beyonce? Like the boss, yeah. He's just Migs. He's Migs. Lector was a genius who loved eating people.

Yes. Maybe he's onto something. Cannibalism. What? The high IQ people are doing it. This is in your hottest tea? Which is the unanswerable question. He's a genius. Why would he like to eat people? Maybe he knows something. So the question is, are we sure cannibalism is bad? Yeah. Yeah. Great.

What do you have for an answer, bros? I just was curious how Bill got into Q Lazarus in the fall and stuff. It just seems like he wouldn't have time to become a really discerning music fan. He's at a record store in Ohio. I'm not trying to gatekeep, but I'm just curious. Do you have any? Okay, I'm curious. This one's for you before I get to some of my others.

Opening scene, we're at the Quantico training course. We pass a sign. It says, hurt, agony, pain, love it. How long did it take you to realize this would be your management style? Hurt, agony, pain, love? Pain, love it. Hurt, agony, pain, love it. The triangle there. It's pretty good. Did all of Buffalo Bill's victims have cats? Because when...

When Clarice goes to Frederica's house, there's a cat. Yeah. And obviously we know that Catherine had a cat. So did everyone have a cat? So Jayme, anti-cat guy?

but like animal lover, canonical animal lover because of Precious. So I'm wondering if everybody else had a cat. As a Baltimorean, I'm curious, what do we think Lecter paired Chilton with when he had his friend for dinner? Little dusting of Old Bay? Yeah. You know, mixed with some jumbo lump, a little crab cake, paired him with a natty bow? No.

Slice him into a pit beef sandwich? Well, we know he's probably in Haiti, so it might have been more of a Creole recipe or something like that. Gotta honor their time together in Baltimore, right? No? How long do you think it took Pilch and Rodan to get fired for workplace misconduct? Oh my God. I think everyone got fired. I think literally everyone got fired at the end of this. What do you think Lecter said to Megs to get him to swallow his own tongue? There's incredible Reddit threads about this.

Like, stunning detail about him diving into Biggs' psyche. Yeah. But I don't know what he did, but after four hours, Biggs was like, I'm fucking killing myself. This guy's... He's in my head. I can't take it. He's just in the next cell. What could Lecter have done? Just talking, talking, talking. Chris, do you think Senator Martin got re-elected? I mean, she's really got a narrative now. She's got a story she can tell the electorate, for sure. When I found my daughter...

All right, this is the big one. Did Catherine Martin keep Precious? Mal goes, no. No. All right, what's the case? We see her carrying Precious out. She lured that animal into a death pit and broke its leg. She shouldn't be allowed to keep that dog. Oh, so you think the dog services take the dog away? I hope so. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's my pick for like what happened the next day as Precious finally finds a loving, nurturing home. LAUGHTER

Honestly, Bill seemed like a good caregiver. Yeah. Lots of room in the subterranean basement. I have one answerable question. Did Buffalo Bill invent Pinterest? Because if you look on the walls, he's got a lot of materials, a lot of inspo. But in particular, he's got these Polaroids of strippers sitting on his lap.

And he's clearly using the stripper's bodies as his design inspiration for his skin suit. Yeah. And fast forward 15, 20 years. This is a great digital business. Yeah. Like, yeah, he was on something way ahead of his time. Best double feature choice has to be Manhunter. I got Manhunter. Yeah. I had Zodiac. Oh man. You're really going for a dark four and a half hours. Procedural thriller. Jesus. Some anagrams.

The Indian Red Zawane Award would happen the next day. So I had, so you had Precious gets taken by dog services. I had Lecter ate Dr. Chilton and then headed on over to Epstein Island because it's very close to North Bimini. I had a great time there. What do you have, Sean? Clarice and Jack Crawford start a family.

You think they end up together? He's really eyeing her in that final scene. Yeah. You know, he's like, I'll see you around. Yeah. I think she starts dating the moth guy. I think she's like, you know what? I need somebody a lot. Butterfly guy. Yeah. Oh, no.

No. I want more for Clarice than Pilch. That's upsetting. Well, you can find out that she dates Hamble Lecter, so we're trying to find a happier ending. You know, they had a real spark, at least. What piece of memorabilia would you want from this movie? I will give you the following options. I really thought about this. Oh, go ahead. This was hard. Well, I'll give you five, and if I left out anything, tell me. The Lecter mask. Yep. Mm-hmm.

Two masks, by the way. You could have both. I'm going to throw two for one special. One mask that kind of squished his nose. It looked uncomfortable. The night goggles. Great one. Break those out. Great one. The bottle of lotion. Yeah.

The drawing of Clarice holding the lamb. Ooh. Go right over the fireplace. Not weird at all. Just don't ever comment on it. Just sort of just sit there. Yeah, just like, what is that? And then I got the Lieutenant Boyle game-used murder nightstick. Oh, man. That's good. Great one.

Those are my five. What else? It's hard to make this memorabilia, but I would love to have one of the fake towns that the FBI gets to practice in so that I could just reenact heat for fun. Great one. The little moth cocoon?

That's what I was thinking of too. Yeah, that's a great one. Ooh, that's a good one. What about the paste you put under your nose, Bill? You already said that's what you want. I feel like you can get that on Amazon. Probably. You should Google that. Are you getting, if you pick the lotion, do you get the basket too? Like, is it a two for one?

I'll throw in the basket. That sounds great. I think that's the pick. I don't know if you guys know about this propstore.com, but they literally have all this shit now. You can just bid on this. The Shawshank Bible went for $450,000. What? All bets are off. Where do you keep it? I didn't get it.

He keeps it in Buffalo Bill's house that he also bought. I will say. For a song, yeah. I did look at the prop store and you could see what they had in the previous auctions and they had one of the Dirk Diggler paintings from Boogie Nights and I was like, fuck. Absolutely would have had that in my house. The Coach Finstock Award for Best Life Lesson. I have one, but what do you guys have? Never help somebody move furniture. Yeah. Thank you.

Don't help a creepy guy moving stuff into a van. It's a no for me. Told my daughter, like, if you learn anything from this movie, let that be it. And then who won the movie? Who do you have, CR? I have Hopkins. Same. To me as well.

You just gave Jodie Foster the Oscar. She deserves the Oscar, but Hopkins wins the movie. It makes him an iconic character. It makes him like a huge bankable actor in Hollywood. Jodie Foster had already won an Oscar at this point, but Hopkins, as you said, his movie career was not really in a great place. And we're still talking about his performance to this day and people still imitate it and still people reference it. And the Pat Riley's slick back hair. That's right. He invented that. That's another one. I was thinking about doing that tonight, but it's a little creepy.

All right, we've come to an end unless there's any other... Did we hit everything? I feel like we did.

Did you want CR to do any Buffalo Bill or no? All right, that's it. Wingro and Tuck Dance. It's great legacy. You can, if you've never seen the rewatchables or listened to it, it's a podcast. Anyone who's here who's like, what the fuck was this? I'm sorry. But we'll be running this next week. Thank you, New York. Good luck to the Mets. Thanks, State Farm. Thank you, State Farm.

Worst of luck to the Yankees. Sorry. Best of luck to the Mets, though. Thank you to State Farm. Thank you to State Farm. Thank you, State Farm. Thank you, State Farm. I think State Farm left halfway through the pod after our ninth mixed thing. But thank you to State Farm, and thanks to everybody in the Rewatchables crew. And thanks to producer Craig Horoback, too. We'll see you next time. Thank you.

All right, before we go here, Bill wanted me to jump in and give my quick review of this movie. Also wanted to promote the YouTube channel. You can watch this live show on youtube.com slash ringer movies right now. We did it in New York at the Music Box Theater on Broadway. Super fun, amazing venue. Check it out on YouTube and stick around for Scary Month on the rewatchables. I think we have three more, two more, three more movies. But Silence of the Lambs is a movie that I love very much. I've seen it a ton.

And by that, I mean probably like five times. This was one of the first quote unquote prestige movies I ever saw. I think I saw this in high school. And I remember thinking that this was the most complete movie I had ever seen. I finally understood. I was like, oh, this is what happens when everything is clicking on all cylinders. No flaws. This movie was perfectly tight in my eyes. Jodie Foster, Anthony Hopkins. Those performances were two of the best I'd ever seen. And I was unfamiliar with Jonathan Demme at the time.

I am not a horror guy. I've said that before on the show. I'm struggling through Scary Month, although it's been pretty nice. Poltergeist and this. What I like about this movie, and it falls so closely in another genre that I love very much, which is the thriller. I don't love movies like The Conjuring or...

something like The Exorcist, supernatural horror, stuff that is incredibly gory. I like things that are a bit more grounded and rooted in the real world, which is why a movie like Silence of the Lambs is so appealing to me. Same with the movie like The Shining. Movies that feel grounded in reality, made by a prestige director, I think is actually one of the best and most fulfilling genres to watch because...

because it really elevates it to the next level. Not saying that certain films like Saw and other scary movies don't have their own qualities that people really like, but why I like these types of films, the thriller, is you can see a genre that typically isn't associated with prestige, auteur directing and storytelling and craftsmanship. You get to see them really flex those muscles with this type of genre, which is the most appealing thing to me, and it's why I love movies like Silence of the Lambs and The Shining. It definitely...

opened a whole new bucket of movies for me to get interested in. It's also less than two hours, ding, ding, ding. And this movie has aged really well and will continue to age well, I think. Mainly because it's so clever in avoiding any real moments of gore or violence. Because of that, it's less susceptible to the usual criticisms of why a movie hasn't aged well. You watch something like the original Halloween...

And whatever you think about that movie, which it's great, but I mean, it's an inarguable to say that the Michael Myers violent murder scenes haven't aged well. It's just, it's just the truth. You can't avoid that stuff. So that's where this movie really succeeds and it will last because of that. I think it also shows that you don't need to show that stuff. If you don't want to, you can still make a terrifying and suspense, suspenseful movie. So there you go. That's my incredibly earnest review. Like I said, you can watch this on YouTube.com.

ringermovies, youtube.com slash ringermovies. And yeah, we will be back next week with another scary movie. God help me.