‘Rocky’ With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Van Lathan
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What's up, Rewatchables fans? As you know, we've done live shows in New York, in Philly, DC, in Chicago, LA many times. We've never done Boston. I've been saving it for the right moment. The right moment is here. It's going to be Thursday, March 27th. It's going to be the House of Blues, which is right by Fenway Park, and it's going to be

The Dream Team. Me, Chris Ryan, Sean Fennessey, and Ryan Rosillo. That's right. We're all coming back. We're not doing the town. We're not touching the town. That one episode lives on forever on YouTube, Spotify. We're not redoing it, but we'll probably do a Boston movie. All information will be on TheRinger.com slash events very soon. Once again, The Rewatchables Live, Boston, Thursday, March 27th, House of Blues, Ringer.com slash events. And we're going to have a couple more things we're doing that weekend too. So-

I'm very excited. We have not come to Boston yet and we're going to do it right. Hope to see you there.

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The Rewatchables is brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. We are now available on video on Spotify. We have a YouTube channel as well that you can find on Ringer Movies. Van Lathan is here. You can find him on Higher Learning. You can find him on Midnight Boys. Pew, pew. Pew, pew. Come on, you know that. He's just fucking with me, man. He did this the last time, too. It's pew, pew.

Chris Ryan. What are you up to? He's like the roadrunner in the coyote now. Yeah. I make the watch. Oh, great. A lot of good TV lately. There's some great television on. Yeah, it's great. Well, I'm Bill and we're about to do Rocky, one of the most important movies the last 50 years. Let's go. His name is Sylvester Stallone. He's the star of a new film called Rocky. He has been described as handsome, tough,

Talented, sexy, sensitive, dynamic, and brilliant. He's been compared to Brando, Newman, Pacino, and De Niro. He's been called a top contender for an Academy Award. Sylvester Stallone in Rocky, rated PG. All right, I'm going to start here. Rocky is now a prequel for Rocky III. Prove me wrong. No, you're right.

That's so funny. Our role, when it's coming up in the category, like prequel, I'm like, this movie is a prequel. It is a prequel. Yeah. And it's one of the most important moments

I think movies of the last 50 years, I'm going to make a case and it's prototype for sports movies. And yet now all these years later, I'm like, Oh, I like how they're setting this up for the pinball machine and Rocky three. I was trying to think of a, an example of what happens in Rocky one. And it's basically imagine if Godfather was entirely about Kate and Michael, not in New York city. Hmm.

Kay and Michael just hanging out, going on dates, going to the movies, you know, like reading books to each other, checking out the Sunday Times. Going to a skating rink. And at the very end, like Don Corleone dies, you know? And he's like, I have to take over the family. So it's like, it's crazy. Boxing does not happen to the last 13 minutes of this movie. Shockingly absent from the film. The lore of the Rocky movies is,

After you watch all of them and then you come back to this one, what a quaint, emotionally devastating film. Mid-70s character study. A small character study of a guy that's trying to take this opportunity for the rest of his life. Something that's super duper relatable. Yeah, it's funny because from a rewatchable standpoint, and this movie's in the running for probably most rewatched movies on cable and everything.

Just diving in halfway through it. But you never watch the first half hour of it when it's just establishing over and over again what a loser he is. Usually not in the rewatch thing. You'll come in and be like, oh shit, he's taking the Apollo fight. I'm going to start watching. Yeah.

And there's just some gut wrenching scenes in that first 30 minutes, which is why it ended up winning best picture. But is that also why you've been a little bit reticent to do it? No. On the pod? I just wanted to do Rocky three first because I think it's one of the great movies of all time. This, when I say it's one of the most influential movies in the past 15 years, the case would be this, um,

created the sports movie prototype, like just period. Created the underdog, the modern version of that underdog. There's millions of movies from 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s that did this, but this nailed it to the point that you would just compare. It could be sports, it could be non-sports. If there was like that kind of Rocky type of character, like, oh, this is like Rocky. And then just the beats of like,

something leading to the big game, big event, whatever, which I guess you could say Longest Yard started it, but once Rocky did this. But I was wondering if this was the first time you remember seeing in a movie sports narratives and storylines getting manipulated from behind the scenes in a kind of dark arts way to create

a sensation, right? Because all the stuff that Apollo and Juergens are doing where they're like, well, we got to pick this guy because they'll believe in this guy and this is how we're going to do this. And what I'm going to do is knock him out here. And it's all the stuff that feels like it's not the pure athleticism and the triumph of the little guy over the big guy. It's actually there's all this other stuff happening in the grimy, seedy underbelly. So what else was...

doing that before this? Probably nobody. I can't remember. I couldn't really think of an example of a sports movie that did that where it's like, here's all this gross shit happening underneath. I'm sure there's like 1930s and 40s boxing movies where like a mafia guy is trying to get a boxer to take a dive or whatever. But Apollo is like manipulating the media in this. Certainly. It's a movie that at its heart is about...

this guy's golden opportunity. Yeah. But then it also gets into why that's happening. Yeah. Everybody wants to believe some, somewhere, somewhere, somewhere, someplace right now that people are having a conversation about you. That's going to end in you doing this great, amazing thing.

And then to watch that happen and then watch the guy that it's happening to, knowing that he did absolutely zero to like deserve it. It's all- Right, turns down the fight when it's offered to him. Yeah. Immediately turns it down. Like, I don't deserve to be in the ring with that guy. He's that self-aware. But it's the thing that's going to save his life and propel him. Like legitimately in the last scene of the movie,

When Adrian is walking to the ring, like her hat falls off, like her hat falls off. She looks back for the hat. That version of her is gone now. Yeah. Like the mousy, like, I don't know that I'm beautiful. I'm trying to hide from the world version. And then rocket, the rocket three versions coming. She's going to go into a coma first, but yeah. Rocket three, Adrian looks fantastic. So it's like the movie just tells you this unbelievable story that everybody wishes was, was their story. Yeah. Guy loser.

Got nothing going. Gets his one chance. Actually comes through. Gets the girl. And then it's ripped off for the next 48, 49 years, which I think is unfairly held against this. The only other nitpick is just that there's some slow parts. I think this is one of the five movies I've seen the most.

Just because it's been around for so long. Was this like an early watching it on cable over and over again? Or did you have it on tape? You didn't see this in the theater, right? Oh, I did. I have a whole story. It's on Dead of Massachusetts with my dad. 1976. This must have been big in Boston. There were not a lot of non-whites in the theater. I'll just say that. You guys are, yeah! Get him! Get him!

Get off our buses! It wasn't a diverse crowd in Dedham. But first of all, it was amazing. I just never had been to a movie like that.

but leaving that my big memory was being confused whether he won the fight or not and asking my dad like but but what was the scorecard like yeah right but they said 8-7 Apollo and then they never said what the rest of the card was how did and I was just so confused and then you know upon rewatches you realize what happened but yeah see I I was very much more I think I might have first seen Rocky 4 in the theater yeah went backwards so Rocky 1 was

exists in this really weird, like, In the prequel world. Yeah, well, it just is, like, when you watch it when you're younger, you're kind of like, this sucks. You know, like, this guy's a loser. Everything's, does not paint, like, the most flattering portrait of Philadelphia. And you're just kind of like, oh, man, this is a real bummer. I much prefer two and three and four. But then as you get older, I think you see the artistry of it and you realize it's part of, like, in context, it's essentially, like, Stallone making Mean Streets. It,

If you first see Rocky three or four, like I did as well,

It's not even the same species of human that Rocky is. They have discovered the steroids by the time 3 and 4 have come along. They don't even look the same. Rocky 1 is... Those movies are action movies, essentially. Rocky 3. Rocky 3. Those are big action movies. It's really all about the physicality of the film. Of course, there's the character stuff in there, too. Crossed with a music video where it just moves from big sequence to big sequence. Right. Like...

This one, you got to give yourself some space with it. For a long time, I didn't enjoy it at all. The more I started to actually live life and understand and got the understanding that life is a lot more like Rocky I than it is like Rocky III, the movie just gained a lot of real estate with me. Well, it also feels very mid-70s as a movie.

This ties into a lot of other great movies. I mean, this is such an unbelievable time for movies. That's 74 to 78 stretch. And just the way they did it, I just think...

Even five years later, the movie's different. They make this in 76. We're eight years away from Karate Kid, which is the 2.0 version of this movie. And that is a completely different movie in every respect. This is slow. It's really trying to build character. It's trying to have these little moments. It's a love story. It has some characters that are awful. It's also like when you talk about Karate Kid and you even talk about movies like, I don't know, the John Hughes movies and even up to Top Gun.

It's just a much different portrait of American life because this is so urban. And then you see movies sort of start to look towards the suburbs for storytelling because it's a lot safer and cleaner and prettier to do that. But this is so like... It looks like the Depression. Takes you to a new world, which we love on the rewatchables. Those movies have a lot of style to them too. You got Cruel Summer and all of that stuff. This film is just...

devastatingly emotional. Yeah. You like, it really makes you believe. How many times did you tear up? I tear, you know what's funny? Like I really, I cried, literally cried when Rock is yelling at the door and Mick is walking away and he's talking about the fact that he's felt abandoned by him. Yeah. I'm right here! What about my time? And then just the, I hate the character. I've always hated this character. This character is my number one op in film history.

My number one. We have a lot of Pauly stuff coming. Yeah. But like the Pauly stuff, Pauly is just a more desperate version of Rocky because he can't even box. Yeah. He's Rocky without the boxing. So like he can't, so he has nothing to take him out of his situation other than his proximity to this guy. That's pretty desperate. We have to go backwards to 76. Cause I, I just need to, cause I'm old enough to remember this. I can't explain what a giant phenomenon this was.

Like Jaws in 75, this in 76, Saturday Night Fever in 77, Star Wars in 77, where these movies would hit and then there would be like seven, eight different outcomes from the movie hitting.

And in this one, like the music, people started jogging. Like for real. Yeah. I don't... And maybe they were jogging before this movie, but I never remember seeing anyone jog before this movie came out. Didn't you have a big Forrest Gump, like reinvigorated jogging, but you think Rocky started jogging? I feel like people always claim Jim Fix, but I always feel like Rocky, the concept of just people training and being motivated to train. Yeah.

I remember, I'm not kidding, I was a little kid being in the living room because I was the only child, and I would play the Rocky soundtrack, and I would just...

be in the main event boxing Apollo and just running around like you know you fake plane like hitting yourself and doing your listen to music like this movie was so you boxed Apollo you were a Rocky and Apollo I was Rocky oh you were Rocky I was Rocky I was like fighting this which one of your friends which one of your non-white friends I was by myself oh but this is what you did with this movie we're gonna make you Apollo come here put your face over here

This is what you did though. You jogged to this movie. You shadow boxed to it. Yeah. And then the other piece of it was just alone going from, I don't, never heard of this person before to this is, this person's now in my life. And then think about how he's been in our life. I mean, this is, I don't know how many rewatchables we've done with him at this point, but I don't know if there's been a bigger rags to riches actor story than this. It's Tarantino crossed with

Acting almost? Yeah, but I was trying to think of also the people who have broken big and then stayed big with the story of making the movie mirrors the movie itself. You know, like his self-belief, his...

I believe in like, I'm betting on myself on this one. And if it means I can't even make the movie at all, I'm not going to compromise. And to actually catapult yourself into this kind of level of fame is astonishing. Yeah. He had to, first of all, everyone had to deliver to such a ridiculous level. The script is perfect.

It's really well written. And it's hilarious that Sly Stallone wrote it. It's really cool reading William Goldman break it down. And he talks a lot about the locker scene and all the different things you learn about Rocky from just him hitting the locker to open it up. One of my favorite script, like just little touches, is when they watch the interview on TV and they're kind of making fun of him in the interview after he takes the fight.

And he's like, yeah, it doesn't bother me. And then he walks away and Adrian's kind of watching him leave. He's like, you remember when I said this stuff didn't bother me? It did. It did. And then he just walks out and be like, oh man, this fucking guy. Can't he buy a break? Can we just buy this guy a break? Is there a time, this is going to sound really whatever, but is there a time in a movie before this to where the old sports trope of,

watching the guy talk about... Apollo's on TV. Yeah. And Apollo's on TV, and the first time you see them talking about it, you see them talking about the fight, and you're watching them on TV. They do that in sports movies all the time now. Now, this is completely invented. This is why this is such an influential movie. We could talk about a million different things. I'll say this. I think...

Until Rod Tidwell, I think Apollo was the best kind of side sports movie character ever. Yeah. Like, if you actually watch all the Apollo scenes carefully in this movie, he's a fucking amazing character. He's like a businessman. The way he talks, he's charismatic. He's doing partly Ali, but he's also...

I don't think Ali was a businessman like this. He's a thinker. He's the one who figures out what to do in that fight. And you just get a complete feel for him. You want to spend more time with him. And I have him in the finals against Rod Tidwell. It's an interesting thing that he is the character that is...

In this movie, utilizing race and capitalism. Right. All of that stuff against the everyman. The Italian stallion. Right. It's almost, it takes that, you know, there's a specific prism. Because he knows. Yeah. He knows what's going to sell. And it's like, he's got to fight a white guy from Philly. But it's a great juxtaposition too, because the three or four of the main characters of this movie are like,

almost nonverbal. They're like barely articulate. Right. No, but like, no, you're right. I mean, that was, that was like a nice way to put it. Yeah. Like, I mean, Adrian, Polly and Rocky are kind of like either drunk, shy to the point of petrification or like brain dead. Yeah. And then Adrian's basically Raymond Babbitt for the first 40 minutes of this movie. Yeah. Until he pulls the glasses off. She's like playing with the Cincinnati Reds baseball cards. He'll, he'll woken something in her. But then, yeah,

But so you basically like when Apollo is narrating all this stuff of like, I don't want Bob justice or whoever the fuck he was going to fight. Like, that's the only thing that kind of keeps this movie going for a while. Cause otherwise it's just people wandering around in the dark, you know, like it's. The promoter is great too. Like every Juergens moment is great, but there's that scene when they're just beating the shit out of each other in the end and it just cuts to him.

He's just sitting there with his fucking cigar just like, yeah. Box office. And then even when Apollo's going through and he clearly lost the fight, you could watch the movie 15 times in a row and Apollo lost, right? He definitely lost the first two rounds. I guess 14 might have been a 10-8. And it's like, there's

a statement that the movie is making about how cynical Apollo was about picking right and how he doesn't train hard enough exactly that was one of the big scenes when the meat locker the meat whatever that scene when Duke's watching it it's like yo man this guy means business and Apollo's like yeah yeah I mean business too and he's just like reading the Wall Street Journal right

I love Apollo. It's so great. But that character, in a way, that's a revolutionary character. No question. Particularly as a black man right there, to be the guy that he's the one that's talking specifically about America and the American dream and everything that America... And he's conducting a little bit of a symphony. It's Philly, they're going to go for this Italian guy, Columbus, the Bicentennial. He's orchestrating a story.

It's six years after they wouldn't let Ali fight. Yeah. And this is like clearly like it's an Ali based character. And the reason Stallone came up with the idea for the movie is he's watching Webner Ali in 75, which was the real life version of this. Webner ends up suing him and undisclosed settlement. Yeah. But that's part of the lore of the movie is Stallone watched that fight.

Wepner was like this, you know, there's been documentaries, movies about him. His banged up face. He's getting killed by Ali, but lasts 15 rounds. Stallone, so inspired, pumps out the movie in three and a half days. Can I ask a question about going back to what you guys were talking about? Would Good Will Hunting be in the same mode of a movie where the guys just went, fuck it, we're going to make our own movie and explodes into- Yeah, the only difference though is those guys- They haven't been around for a while. But those guys had been in movies. Yeah.

Affleck and Damon, they hadn't had their A-list break, but they'd been in stuff. Affleck was in Chasing Amy the year before. Damon was in a bunch of stuff. I think he'd gotten the Rainmaker by then. He was in School Ties. Yeah, the Rainmaker hits almost every season. Stallone was in Paradise Alley. That was it. And I think also, I mean, I don't remember. I'd have to go back and look, but I don't know that Damon and Affleck

would have said no if they were like we're gonna make this script but like these two giant movie stars are gonna be and you guys get paid for the script like I think they may have been like hey we're keeping it moving and we're I don't know it was like Stallone was basically like I'm either writing it and starring in it or it's not getting made well there was a piece that I didn't know about how he sold it to ABC with Henry Winkler because they worked together and then ABC was

It was basically like, we're changing everything. Thanks for the script. Here's some money. And he convinced Winkler to give it back to him. Well, no. And crucially, it's like Winkler has to go back to ABC, ask for the script back. They're like, no thanks. But he's the Fonz. And then he's like, I'm Fonzie. So if you don't want to fuck with Happy Days, you'll give it back or you sell it back to me at cost.

and then it's this two-year dance or one-year dance however long it was of people wanted to buy the script but put a famous actor or con or whatever i gotta say it's an amazing in the bed on your if there was a bet on yourself book stallone betting on himself is a chapter yeah i'll take way less money i have to star in it i want to be the writer and star is there a version of stallone's career where he is primarily a writer that he's more of a filmmaker actor

I think he's too charismatic. He has suggested or like when he talks about it, like I think that he has suggested that that's like a career he would have happily had, you know, like that he really wanted to be a filmmaker and he thinks of himself as an artist more than like

In some ways, Rocky is golden handcuffs, right? He's returned to this franchise over the decades so many times. Rambo 2, Rambo. Yeah, but I wonder if he's like, I would have liked to have made more movies that are on the waterfront or whatever. Well, he definitely...

Yeah, he didn't write First Blood. Rocky, the moment this comes out, it's like, all right, let's make Rocky II. Come on, guys. What are we waiting for? And then that comes out. And then he's trying. He's in Nighthawks. He's in Victory. But then he has that second run with Rocky III and First Blood same year. And then that's it. He has one of the best, probably six-year A-list movie star runs ever. All seemed inconceivable if you watch Rocky I.

he's got to lose weight. He's got to look more leading man. It was tough to separate Rocky from Stallone, you know, like he's in Nighthawks. He grew a beard. Yeah. And he's like, all right, I'm street cop Stallone. But as, and then he's in victory, he loses a ton of weight and he's the goal. And it's like, all right, it's still Rocky. And it really took him until I would say 82, 83 to be Stallone. Yeah. And obviously he spends most of his career like in and out of that persona really until Copland. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

We've done physical transformation there. Yeah. By the way, we've done, this is our 11th Stallone rewatchable. So he's moved into the top five. What all have you guys done? He's tied. I mean, we've done a bunch of them. I thought you might crash into Hackman at the last second here. Well, I'm waiting for the results.

Cruz 15, De Niro, Pacino 13, Denzel and Stallone 11. That's our top five. Awesome top five. How many more Stallones are still sitting there? Are you scouting? Are you at the combine looking at Stallone? There's a couple of good ones left. Yeah. We haven't done lockup. We haven't done daylight. Lockup.

You a Daylight fan? I like Daylight. Stallone has to save... You did Cliffhanger, right? We did Cliffhanger. I was ready to do it again, though. But see, the Stallones... Rambo 2 we haven't done. So you're never going to do Cobra, right? Murdoch. Did Cobra already. Did Cobra? Oh, fuck yeah. Love Cobra. Have you done Tango and Cash? Yes. Oh, shit. Well, you got... Tango and Cash is one of my favorite movies. Well, we can retango. Retango? Yeah, we'll retango it. One of my favorite movies. We'll take a break, come back a little more and talk about this movie.

Just quickly on the ultimate sports movie recipe, surprise out of nowhere star, killer supporting parts. So we mentioned Apollo Creed, but you also have Mickey. You have Pauly, the least likable character, probably the 1970s, other than maybe Travis Bickle. And then Adrian. Adrian.

And then you have Gotso, the loan shark guy. Oh my God. And you have Gotso's driver, the funniest character probably of the 1970s. And then you have Juergens. Yep. And Duke, who's not named in Rocky I and eventually becomes Duke. Apollo was like a son to me. Yeah. I raised him when he died.

A part of me died too. Duke has some all-time heaters. Why wasn't Duke? Duke has some. Duke's the best. The guy's all wrong for us. Like Duke has some. I don't like southpaws. Duke has some all-time heaters when you just let Duke cook. So we got the killer supporting parts with perfect underdog story.

Great music. Great all-time sports movie music. Multiple chill scenes. I always call them chill scenes when you're watching the gonna fly now and he starts racing the boat and you're like, ah. And then the great ending. This is the recipe. This is the recipe that was then copied for 48 years. When you were watching this, I know you're kids, maybe you just assume, but like

Did you watch, were you watching this being like, and of course like Rocky's got, got a win at the end, right? Like, Oh yeah. Sports movie, like idea of like, this was bad news bears too. Those were the two movies that year that flipped. Oh, you think they're going to win at the end? Watch this. And then they don't win. Um, something else about the movie. It,

To me, it establishes the sports movie to where a victory for our main character is this transformational victory for all of our supporting characters too. Like everybody learns a lesson along with Rock. Pauly got $3,000. Pauly, like Rock pulls everybody. Mickey,

By the time you get to Cinderella Man, you realize that he's not just fighting for him. He's fighting for Giamatti. Everyone gets pulled out of their thing by what this guy does. Some other stuff, other piece of this big picture. We mentioned the Stallone breakout movie. Adrian is not a wet blanket in this movie. We get to Rocky IV and it's full bloom. It doesn't even go to Russia with him.

I think for the most part, a really great sports movie girlfriend in this one. Like, just additive, supportive, wants them to win, loves them so much she can't go out there to watch the fight, doesn't want to see them get, but then can't resist, has to come out. A different time in the American economy when a woman could make a living working in an exotic fish store in South Philadelphia or in Kensington. Never more than one customer in there. The heart of downtown Philly. How much did we make today, Adrian? Six dollars. And they're just getting fucked over. Yeah.

$6, yeah. That's okay. Did those caviar eggs sell yet? No. We're providing a big service to the community. Gigantic. We're right across this scummy gym in a porn theater. I don't know where everyone is today. Adrian, you know, the guy singing doo-wop can use the toilet. So, you know, we play our part. All white doo-wop group. We're going to get to it. Stallone's bro. Frank. All white doo-wop group. Loved it. Um,

Your Mickey thoughts. So, you know, I haven't been around the boxing gym a lot. Everybody in there is essentially Mickey. Like, you know, they have their favorites. They do the whole you're not putting enough into your boxing career. When I was a kid, I didn't like Mickey. I thought that Mickey sucked as I got older.

something changed. I'll tell you what it is. When you get older, the first thing you lose patience for

It's people squandering their talent and their ability. That's the first thing that goes. I didn't know why people used to do that to me when I was a kid. I used to be like, look how big Van is. And one of my uncles would be like, yeah, he ain't going to do nothing with it. I'd be like, goddamn, I'm eating my cereal. What the fuck is wrong with you? But now when I look at Mickey and I go, he was so disappointed in Rocky because he saw what Rocky could have been.

And that's why he was treating them like shit. So that's the character that you kind of age with. Because at first, when I first saw the movie, I was like, well, I had seen the old one, Rocky loves Mickey so much. I was like, why? He's kind of an asshole. For the first half. He's coming into the gym smoking a lung dart. Hey, where's my locker? Hold on. Is there an ashtray? Mick gives his locker away. To the dipper. Continuously tells him how shitty he is. And then-

becomes kind of grifter when the $150,000 deal comes by now. It's such an important scene. It's an incredible scene. It's also like shows Mick in this like incredibly, I mean, maybe not self-consciously vulnerable way where he's like, look at, look at the newspaper clipping of me. And you're just like, oh, this is a guy who has newspaper clippings about himself, like stuffed into his pockets. Like,

He's kind of pathetic in some ways. Still wants it, yeah. I got heart, but I ain't got no locker, do I, Mick? Yeah. Tough one. That's a great scene. It makes sense. It's like I'm 75 years old. It never happened for me. I just want to be around anyone who still has the chance that it could happen for them. So this movie won three Oscars, Best Picture, Director, and Editing, 10 nominations, first sports film ever to win Best Picture. This was kind of an amazing Oscars year. Let's talk about it.

It beats all the president's men, network, taxi driver, bound for glory. Jesus Christ. John Avildsen wins for best director. He beats Alan J. Kulud for all the president's men. Ingmar Bergman, Sidney Lumet for network, and whoever did Seven Beauties. And then Stallone loses to Peter Finch in network. De Niro loses as Travis Bickle.

And William Holden. I would make the argument that I think Holden's better in network than Peter Finch. But aside from that, like. That's probably a De Niro year. Yeah. If we're redoing that one. And then Talia Shire, not nominated. But we do have Burgess Meredith and Burt Young, both nominated. But Jason Robards wins for all the president's men.

All right, you're re-litigating this. Who wins in 76? So for Best Picture, definitely, I think All the President's Men should have won Best Picture. Now, you can make the argument that Taxi Driver cinematically is more importantly in movie history, but I just think All the President's Men is a perfect Oscar Best Picture movie. I would go All the President's... Well, Network's really great, though. Yeah, Network's really good. I would go All the President's Men for movie, and I would go Scorsese for Best Director. But the important part here is it's not Rocky.

It's not rocky, but I think that speaks to...

how unique the movie was. And part of what made people respond to it was they just never seen anything like this. And it really affected them. The Oscars fall for phenomenon a lot. And if the movie was a phenomenon that you say it was, they get swept up in that. It's a very relatable- It's like Crash. Yeah. Jesus. $1.1 million budget made 225 million, spawned five sequels and three Creed movies. So eight sequels overall. I wonder how that money got chopped up.

1.1 made $225,000, but it's got to be so much more than $225,000 when you factor in the sequels. This has to be a multi-billion dollar franchise, right? Yes.

Like four, four, three billion dollars. I wonder how they even quantify like the economic impact it had on Philadelphia. Like, you know what I mean? Like I, they don't have points on that, but like, it's crazy how this is like a, in a lot of ways, a world changing movie. Yeah. Like video games, cartoons, it creates an American mythology. Like Rocky is not a movie character. He's like more akin to like,

I don't know, Paul Bunyan. You refer to Rocky as like, oh, it's like a Rocky story. This guy's coming out of nowhere. I mean, we still do it today. You could say Rocky, Jaws, Saturday Night Fever, and The Godfathers just like created this new form of pop culture, at least a piece of it. But the crazy part about it is when you watch it, you would never think that. Like when you watch the first 45 minutes of Rocky, you're like, wow, I'm watching a really, really sad character. Yeah, this is like an indie movie. Yeah. Yeah.

Roger Ebert, our guy. Four stars last week for Crash. Four stars this week for Rocky. A description of it would sound like a cliche from beginning to end, but Rocky isn't about a story. It's about a hero, and it's inhabited with supreme confidence by a star. His name is Sylvester Stallone. Just raves and raves and raves. Roger loves story.

What's the exact perfect age to see this movie? What do you guys think? 13. At 13. Do you need to be in puberty and care about girls a little bit or care about romantic relationships a little bit? Because otherwise you're going to be really bored for the first two turns of this. I said 13 in 1993. But like now, at this particular time, I think you'd have to be like 26 or 27. Okay. But I think that the kids that would watch the movie now, a lot of them,

They're not going to stick it out with Rocky through the early parts. I know my kids didn't. My kids wanted to watch Rocky three and Rocky four. This was too slow. First 45, most rewatchable scene. I got to give, I got to start. I have a bunch. I have probably too many, but I love the beginning with the spider Rico fight pre-credits. Um, the head butt gets me. I like the, uh, the smoke after the fight when spider Rico's just lying in the, on the bed, you got Loki. Um,

And it goes right into, I like when they get paid. Spider gets $70.20. Rocky gets $40.55. I love that they're taking taxes out on these guys. I'm sure that's going to the government. And then he walks out and we go in to take a back with our diverse doo-wop group. Yeah. And then we're into the opening credits. Just to back up a second, if you don't get the theme song and the title sequence and the fight in the beginning of this movie, I think a lot of people would be like, what the fuck am I watching? Yeah.

Because it gives you the sense, if you just start with this guy, like wandering through the night, Philadelphia, smoky. Yeah. I think people would be like, yo, I thought this was a sports movie, you know, but this gives you, hey, just so you know, at some point, it's coming. And this guy can fight.

Right. And so you stick around. Ben, do you think you could take Spider Rico? No. I don't know. I'm pretty good in the ring, though, man. Couple rounds? Maybe. I'll tell you one thing about that scene, though. That is one of the worst in terms of like...

boxing movie scenes ever. And it's interesting. Because of the boxing or because of... No, it just... There's this portrayal of the sport. When I say worse, I mean the way... Unflattering. Unflattering is what I meant to say. This portrayal of the sport that these guys are in there just killing themselves for nothing. It's completely dirty. It's corrupt. It's just the worst part of it. The fans are awful. Fans are awful. The whole deal. And the first thing Rocky says is,

When can I fight again? Like there's something that he's putting himself through and you go and the first thing you go is like, why? And that question is answered at the end of the movie. The end of the movie, the movie takes the entire movie to answer the question of why would someone put themselves through what Rocky's going through in the first scene? It's because you might, you could possibly make everyone is chasing that question.

walking out there at the end. And so that kind of pays it off. But when I watched that scene, it's fucking disgusting and terrible and exploitive and the whole night. And I was thinking about how they, you know, in Creed, which very closely follows some of the structures of Rocky, like the first fight is in Tijuana and it's like, no, Creed can fucking fight. Like Creed's knocking this dude out. And

It's not like, oh, why is this guy fighting? You're like, he can fight. We're not in Creed, but he's the guy who already knows that it's over. I'm combining three small scenes together because they're all in a row. Apollo breaking out his bicentennial plan. Apollo, I like it. It's very American. No, Jurgens, it's very smart. Right into Gato's driver.

Hey, Rock. I heard she's retarded. Take her to the zoo. I hear retards like the zoo. I'm sorry to say the R word. The zoo is very nice. It's so... The driver is like the worst human being probably ever. And every time he pops up, I'm like, the driver. Easily the most 1975 thing in this movie. I like when Rock has had enough of it. He just goes after him. I'm right here!

This guy just, why does he hate Rocky so much? What did Rocky do? Well, Rocky's not a very good collector. Rocky's letting a lot of guys off. Not breaking enough thumbs. Well, then we get right from there back to the office with Apollo going, this is what I'm looking for. The Italian stallion. He's a softball. I'm like, you're messing around with softballs. I like that whole section. Juergen's making Rocky the offer right into the press conference.

I fight in clubs. I'm really a ham and egger. We stopped using the phrase ham and egger. Him asking the secretary for the business card back so that he can keep it as like a keepsake. Yeah. There's so many good subtle touches like that. Oh yeah. This guy, this guy thinks this is like the only proxy, like the closest he's ever going to get to success is being in this office. So he wants to keep everything he gets from it. He thinks he'd be a sparring partner. It's funny. Yeah.

This movie is the definition of a rewatchable because we know that we're looking at Rocky Balboa. I know. Yeah. He doesn't know that he's Rocky Balboa, but we know. It's like a superhero movie. Yeah. We know that we're looking at Rocky Balboa. We don't know he's going to end the Cold War. The whole deal. He's going to go on to become. He's already got like 21 losses, but he's going to go on to become one of the greatest heavyweights of all time. The whole. We know we're looking at him.

Rocky, do you believe America is the land of opportunity? I said this to CR in 2011. I did. I was trying to get him to come to Greenland. It's like, CR, do you believe? I also love, I just want to say hi to my girlfriend, Yo Adrienne.

And then this is when the, you know, it is said this stuff on TV didn't bother me. It did. Um, Mickey trying to convince Rocky to hire him. We mentioned, yeah, of course. I never had no management. That's a trouble. I got all this knowledge. I got it up here. I want to give it to you. I want to give you this knowledge. I want to take care of you. I want to make sure that all this shit that happened to me doesn't happen to you. You know what I mean? The fight's set. Listen to me. I want to be your manager.

You follow that? The monologue improvised? I love the door opening and closing because he thinks Mickey left, but he didn't. Then he slams the door again. Then he opens and he just starts screaming incoherently, which is some of my favorites alone. Yeah. You talking about pride? What about my pride, Nick? What about my pride? And

And then I like the wordless reconciliation from far away. Just some good filmmaking. Yeah. Possible great shot, Gordo. What'd you have for great shot, Gordo? Running up the art museum steps. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's actually Great Shot Garrett because he's the Steadicam inventor. Great Shot Garrett. Rocky's TV interview in the meat freezer, which also gets the Big Kahuna Burger Award for best use of food and drink. Mate, you could even argue it might have to replace the Big Kahuna Burger. I'll be honest with you. There's another candidate though. What do you got? The turkey.

Oh, that's a great one. Yeah, you're right. The turkey. Turkey's a tough one. Because Pauly keeps like the one gross leg. And then he's like touching people with it, with the grease. Oh my God, dude. He's wielding the turkey leg as a scepter as he's throwing her Thanksgiving turkey. I don't know what, what a bastard. And it's like the third worst thing he did in the movie. I like when they're, when they're doing the TV interview and they're about to film it and the guy's like, hey, the meat guy's sticking his head in. Dude,

Doing that. Duke's watching. Yeah, I'm in business too. He hears the punches, right? Yeah. Because Duke's got his back to the TV and then he turns around slowly. He's like, what's going on here? He hears the punches. What do you think this would do if they had social media in 1976? How many views is this getting? Him hitting... Apollo's opponent punching meat in a meat locker. I feel like this is like 10 million views, right? I tell you what, man. Charlamagne's sending that to you. Did you see this guy who's fighting Apollo? I don't know, bro. This dude...

is Apollo ready for this guy bro and Ariel's like I heard that wasn't real me all of a sudden this goes into the gonna fly now training sequence which I forgot like we're like oh we're doing this one handed pushups races the huge boat second chance at the stairs which we set up earlier with that 5am brutal training session with the eggs yeah

Honestly, I think this is one of the best sports movie scenes of all time. Of course it is. It has to be. If you're just arguing about them, this has to be one of the first ones. The great works... Unless you want to go Rocky II on me with all the kids. Seriously, like inside of that building, the art museum is some of the greatest works of art in like the history of the world. There's like...

medieval suits of armor there's like tombs from egypt there's paintings from impressionism and dress could kill ladies love and it's just literally like every day there is a line of cars and vans waiting to take pictures of the rocky statue there it is still like this iconic thing how how important is this movie this is gonna sound so stupid the the city has so much history how

How important is this movie to the contemporary identity of Philadelphia? I think it was big during my childhood. It was huge during my childhood. Not so much anymore. Peaked in the 80s. I don't see a lot of dudes being like, man, Rocky's really means a lot to me. But it's like, you have to remember, Iverson's 25 years ago now. So it's like, this is a very long time ago. They got my trunks wrong, that scene, when he goes into the spectrum. Doesn't matter, does it? I'm sure you're going to give us a great show. And then he knows, like, oh God, I'm going to fucking get smoked. Goes back, talks to Adrian. Yeah.

Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed. And if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standing. I want to know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood. I love all that stuff. You got me, Rock. You had me a half hour ago. I didn't need this speech. You got me. I'm splitting the fight up into three scenes. The entire fight entrance. Pauly got three grand. I got the robe. Shrewd.

The Uncle Sam entrance from Apollo, which is great. Him talking shit to Sly. Sly's so stupid in the pre-fight, but it's great. Is he talking to me? Yeah, he's talking to you. And then the Joe Frazier cameo is amazing. Awesome.

You hear people chanting like, Frasier in the background. Yeah. Ducking me a long time. And then I love the nicknames. The Master of Disaster. Is that one of the best nicknames ever? Love it. King of Sting. Yeah. All of that stuff. First two rounds of the fight. The first round knockdown is one of the most exciting sports movie moments ever. Oh my God. I love the bar shot. The guys jumping around. In the first round, as they're like sort of feeling each other out, it's never like...

Those are like, he's actually like missing. Like they're not like, that's not bad stunt work. No, I think it's just slapping. Breaks his nose. Duke does though. He doesn't know it's a damn show. He thinks it's a damn fight. Yeah. And then the end of round two is great. Yeah. Cause it's like, oh, Rocky's not going away. Here we go. We do the montage. 14th round. Next scene.

I think this is my most rewatchable. This is because it cut me, Mick. No, I love the down, down, stay down. And he's just like, and Adrian comes out. And then Apollo with the shoulder slump is my favorite. Yeah.

Where he's just like, man, are you fucking kidding me? This guy's got up again? You like that. And then he comes back with a... And it's just all body shots. But they repeat the same shot. It's two punches that they run twice. Reminds me of the fight that was on last week where... Oh, yeah, yeah. Where Zhang just gets nuked out by body shots. Yeah. And that's his thing.

He's going to go to the ribs just like the slabs of meat. Yeah, because don't they say Apollo's bleeding internally, basically? Yeah, yeah. And he just can't handle it. Mickey calls it. Mickey tells that guy, he goes to the body like nothing we've ever seen. Cut Me Mick is great, too. And then the ending. Cut Me Mick is so gross. So gross. Cut Me Mick is disgusting, y'all. I can't see nothing. Got to open my eye. Cut Me Mick. I don't want to do it. Cut Me Mick. Cut Me Mick. Try it. Cut it. Cut it.

I didn't even know that was a thing. It's so great that they bring the cut guy in at like the eighth inning. Hold on. I got my razor blade here. Let me, let me get that. And then, uh, the ending, it seems like he's going to get them and could be no rematch. Don't want one. Where's your hat? Still champion Apollo. Um,

I don't know. Best sports movie ending ever. It's in the running. During the fight, especially on repeat viewing, I think you can tell that the stadium's empty when they're fighting or very empty. They weren't counting on Blu-ray in 2025. Some of the ADR, like sound effects stuff could have been better. But that bell, everybody rushing in, the overhead shot of everybody rushing in, the music...

Him just being like, you automatically kind of intuitively know it doesn't matter if he's won or not. It's because he's stuck through the whole fight. He did win. Yeah, he earned the champ's respect. It's just like, holy shit, man. Pauly finally does something nice. He lets the rope open for Adrian. He doesn't get... And throws a turkey at her. What he wants, but he leaves the fight with so much more than what he came into the fight with. Yeah.

that even looking at him as battered and bruised as he is, like it was worth it. What's your most rewatchable scene, C.R.?

Going to fly now? I think I'd probably go with the training. Yeah, the finally getting up the art museum steps to go to fly now. I love the 14th round. I think it's the training, but I do want to just give some love to Rocky and Adrian's first date. At the ice skating rink. The ice skating rink. Where he just demonstrates so many things. Number one, like the script really is perfect because Rocky's talent is

It's determination. Yeah. That's what his talent is. His talent is determination. And throughout the whole movie, you just see a determined guy. He's going to get her on the ice rink. He's going to tell her the stupid Southpaw story. And you can just see them kind of closing in on each other to the whole time to where, you know, he kind of accosts her in his apartment later on.

She's telling him about fish food. Yeah. I love the fact that the guy keeps yelling eight minutes, seven minutes, but it's like, it gives their date urgency. Like if you can't close here, you know, Hey, this episode of the rewatchables is presented by state farm. There's a lot to say when buying a new home or car, but only one thing to say when you need help to protect them. Like a good neighbor. State farm is there. A state farm agent can help you choose the coverage you need. Like a good neighbor.

State Farm is there. What's the most 1976 thing about this movie? I think White Doo-Wop. That's up there. I get it. Maybe not. Did we still have such voices back then? I don't know. White Doo-Wop. White Doo-Wop. Well, Color Me Bad was really the last moment. Yeah, but like... Some of them were black, though. I know, but they had a couple white guys there. Do you remember... Have you ever seen a group of men singing in harmony on a street corner in real life? No. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, that's what I had most 1976 thing. Good-natured winos and doo-hop singers versus just fentanyl addicts, which we would have now. Oh, my God. Now we would have people with no pants on just wandering in a circle. Yeah, these fentanyl guys could just carry a tune, you know? Yeah. If they could just sing a little bit, we could...

Fucking guy, bro. Take it back. Where's my pin now? Bill pulling up with a fur coat being like, let me hear a tune, fellas. All right. And then throws him a quarter.

It wasn't there though. Drunk street characters were always like these benevolent movie characters. Like he picks up that one guy and brings him in the bar and she's like, let me put you over on the seat. Right. Have a drink with Eddie. Those days are gone. A lot of the stuff that we lionize on this podcast, smoky dive bars, 1970 streets and stuff. This is the real shit in this movie. And it kind of makes me second guess whether I would love to be

in a smoke-filled bar, the Lucky 7 Tavern, with overhead lighting, and three absolutely guys dying of kidney failure. Right. And Pauly upset that the mayor is broken. Thanksgiving, Christmas, it's the shittiest life. You know how many times in this movie

Somebody accuses somebody else of stinking. It stinks. Yeah. It stinks in here. Oh yeah, he talks to his own apartment. It's about how it stinks. Desperation. What's aged the best? See, I mentioned the Steadicam. This is the third movie ever they used the Steadicam, but the most famous one. And, uh,

Steady cam I would say is it's not an MVP of the movie, but it's it's first thing on inventor of the steady cam and he Basically was like trying to get people interested in the technology and and rocky winds up becoming More or less the guinea pig for for the technology that changes cinema Apparently the run up the stairs was his idea because to show them how the steady cam works He did a test run with his wife to show him what it would look show them what it would look like And that led to how they did it. Um

Apparently, they offered him either money or points in the movie, and he took the money and has some regrets. Oh, God. Got to bet on yourself. It's tough. That's not going to be in the bet on yourself book. Gary Brown. What's aged the best? The music and the soundtrack. It's still going. You hear that? I mean, how many years have they been playing that in sporting events? Start of every fourth quarter in America, it feels like. I have a bunch. What do you have? Anything good? The actual Turtles. Turtles.

Yeah. Still alive as of 2021, which is the last reference I could find of them, but Stallone kept them. Oh, wow. Yeah. It's amazing. I'd sing with turtles. They don't die. If you get a pet turtle, that's not like, ah, 10 years from now.

Turtles do smell too, I got to say. Turtles are an L. Yeah. You don't like them? No. I used to like them when I was back in Louisiana. I see turtles everywhere. Would you have them in the house though? Probably not. Yeah. Agnostic on turtles now. No, it's aged the best. Well, first of all, I personally think that just overall the sports movie obviously has aged the best, but I think that this, it's because of Rocky. Yeah. I think without the success of,

And the cultural penetration of this movie, I think the sports movie period is just like much, much different. Like this is a serious- Yeah, I wonder if somebody would have figured it out. They probably would have. But we don't know. Right. I'm sure they would have, right? It's just such an important piece of our culture. But man, does this movie just completely-

It's like the Marlon Brando of sports movies. It changes the archetype, period. You know what I was thinking about the other day is how come in sports media, we're pretty obsessed with the great teams, the dynasties, the burgeoning dynasties, the Chiefs, the Pats, the like, we're always talking about the Lakers and the NBA or whatever.

But in movies, we're never interested in the great teams. We're interested in the underdog teams or the underdog player. Like nobody wants to watch. True greatness is an interesting. Yeah. You wouldn't watch money ball about Brian Cashman. You know, you'd want to watch money ball about a guy trying to put together a team with less money than Brian Cashman. Like we don't ever make movies that are about like, ah, this is the story of the three Pete. I have a thought.

It's probably because when we're watching those dynasties, it's aspirational. And when we're watching the movies, it's inspirational. We're definitely more Rocky than we are the Yankees. Everybody in this movie feels like they're Rocky. If you watch this movie and you felt like Apollo Creed, then you on some different shit. Right. So we're Rocky probably. That's why we have sports documentaries. Yeah. Yeah.

But you know what I mean, though? It's kind of interesting. Yeah, for sure. Well, it's interesting because one of the best sports books ever was The Game by Ken Dryden, which was about the Montreal Canadiens at the tail end of their dynasty trying to hold it together. It's fascinating. It's basically what The Last Dance is about, too. It's like, can we stay together one last time? So we've seen it work in documentaries and books, but I've never seen it in a movie. But to his point, though, and I've always wondered this, not only do we...

not getting to the underdogs in real life, but we hate them.

We are relentlessly critical of bad teams. If a random wildcard baseball team wins, it's kind of like, this is annoying. It negates the regular season. Kind of don't like them. A team's bad, they suck, I hate them, they're disgusting and all that. I'm like, they're just not having a good season, so it's just different. We're hypocrites. Morewood saves the best. Race and boxing?

I didn't know when this was going to come up. You want me to take this one? It's the same space. Boxing is legitimately the only place where it's still completely acceptable to be totally tribal. Sure. I mean, some people would say that there are other places where it happens, but in boxing, you go to a place like the black guy versus Mexican guy, all the brothers rooting for the black guy, all the brothers rooting for the black guy.

All my Latino brothers and sisters were written for the Mexican guy. Or the English guys fighting all the English people. And it's just totally okay. It's totally okay. Why are you beating down? I'm not beating down. No, like, this is just a weird era for sports movies because it's the 1.0 era, but most of them are like, you know, it's like Hoosiers, it's Rocky, it's a lot of...

our white hero trying to beat whoever the black guy was in front of him or the black team. Yeah. And then it eventually shifts. But I, you know, I just think that in this case, it's clearly an Ali thing. And it feels like less of a black white thing, but,

After the fact, it feels black-white. I really think this is an Ali thing. It definitely is. Stallone is like, what if I fought Ali? And that's the premise of the movie. Oh, no, Stallone doesn't. I don't think Stallone... I don't think the movie is conceived from the lens of race almost at all. But I think the perception after the fact was that it was. This is why it became so popular. This is why they had to have a sequel so he would win. Well, I think... I'm not saying it's right. There was no way to read it other than that at that time. But then if you...

realize how obsessive Sylvester Stallone is about boxing. Legitimately, Roy Jones Jr. was supposed to be in Rocky Balboa. He went out and laid an egg in a ring. Stallone removed him from the movie and put Antonio Tarver in the movie. It was really good. Right. Obviously, the movie has racial undertones, overtones, the entire thing. But all of the race in the film comes from

from the black heavyweight champion. Yeah. Like he is the one, and maybe that's intentionally done. Let's also explicitly discussed how manipulating people's racial biases will lead to a bigger payday, lead to a bigger audience, right? Yeah. Let's get this guy because of this city, because of this time. And like, here's the story we're going to tell about him. I think this movie is clean on the race front from Stallone's hands. Rocky three is good. Becomes a different story. I mean, yeah, you know,

Stallone might not be that clean. The movie itself is. But also, like, even small things. Like, Rocky's locker gets given to...

Dipper. Dipper. Dipper. Younger. Yo, Rock, I dig your locker. I dig your locker. He's like, you put me on skid row. Yeah. Is that the most boxing gym moment ever? The guy taunting Rock from the ring that he digs his locker just out of nowhere? Yeah. It's a pretty good one. It is a pretty good one. Do you ever have moments in the gym where everybody stops training at once because something has happened in the gym? Yeah. That is like when Mick and Rock are yelling at each other and everybody just stops. Well, yeah.

when you're in the gym with that much testosterone that normally happens because two people have taken something that happened inside of the ring. Yeah. Like outside of the ring. Right. You know what I mean? And so like, cause the boxing gym is a pretty chill place. It's like very chill. But once again, the tribalism still exists in there. I have said stuff in the boxing gym that I wouldn't say anywhere else. Like Phil goes, well, I remember one time Phil go, I walk in the gym, Phil goes, Hey man, I got somebody for you to work with. And I go, I'm not sparring anymore Mexicans. Yeah.

I just remember, and I said, and everybody's laughing. I'm like, I'm in here for, you know, fitness. I'm not trying to fight somebody that's fighting for the honor of their family. So, you know. Just letting you finish. Bill's making a playlist of his favorite doo-wops. I'm talking about this. Looking at my outline. Very determined fighters is all I'm saying.

Well, that was like that card we were watching the other day. Who was the guy? Sergio Mora? Yeah. He's from Ghana. Those guys are warriors. See? We were texting about it. We were talking about it. See? But it's boxing. And every time he said it, there was just dead silence from his partners. And then he would just double back on it. This is what I was telling you about Ghana. Mora went stage the best.

The 5 a.m., this is the first day I'm going to start my training. And it just being the most miserable thing ever, I think is perfect in this. It's like, I'm going to start. Here's my alarm. I'm going to have some eggs, do a little run, maybe run the steps. And it's just like, by the end of it, you're holding your side. You're coughing up five cigarettes and it's just super depressing. I loved how they did it and then brought it back. I think it's really smart. Can we talk about Angry Mickey? Yeah.

Who has quotes like, yeah, I said that before you dumb dago. Then he goes, yeah, I know, woman, we can live. Guys from the Warriors.

He does that. Rock's like, I know, woman, we can legs. And he goes, well, let her train you. You're going to eat lightning and you're going to crap thunder. I love his, like, just Burgess. So I knew Burgess Meredith as the penguin in the Batman series because I used to love that series. Same thing. Yeah, me too. Once upon a time, Van. See, yeah, you used to be one of us. I love the Batman series. And Burgess Meredith. And then we're like, the penguin's going to be Mick's trainer? Twilight Zone.

Oh, he's the one with the glasses? Yeah. Morewood stage is the best. The meat freezer is just an amazing... Whoever thought of that, give them a gold star. 1970s Philly is fun. Yeah. I mean, you could get into some trouble out there. It seemed really... It's like when Philly was really in a lot of economic despair. Well, I don't think New York and Boston were doing any better. I think it was pretty fucked up everywhere. I think the 70s were rough. So it's mostly Kensington, kind of like...

Port Richmond shot there. You put my stuff on Skid Row? It's like that little... They call when you lose your locker, you go to Skid Row in the box of Jim at the Duskin. Buckus...

Stallone's real dog that Stallone sold for $50 because he was so broke when he was writing this movie. He sold him real life, then got it back after he sold the script. That's nice. And then brings Buckus in there. He gets a lot of breaks here, Stallone, getting his script back, getting his dog back. Giving Buckus the Brandy Booth Award, best performance by a pet. Multiple great scenes by Buckus. Wood Sage the best, the Rocky marathons that eventually get on TV once we got to three or four.

And they would just run them all in a row. Although I never understood why they would run all of Rocky I, start Rocky II at the end of Rocky I again. Just kind of mean? Go right into the start of Rocky II where it's like... They do it with the Godfather. They'll just put the first two together. Another would stage the best. Any scenario where a boxer, UFC fighter, tennis player, or golfer

is an out of nowhere story. And you just think of Rocky immediately. Yeah. Right. Especially like with the combat sports, you think of that. Um, last thing, Talia Shire as Adrian, three best picture movies in five years. Godfather one, Godfather two and Rocky. Yeah. What a run. Yeah. It's like a fucking Scottie Pippen,

kind of 90s bulls run by her. She's great in this. She's really good in this. Yeah. I want to like nitpick it, but I can't. I think she's good and it's different than Connie Corleone. I feel like she's a different character, right? Connie probably has. Well, I mean, Bafanguyu! Bafanguyu!

Come on. I'll kill you. You kill her like your father. What an intense scene. Come on. I was watching Godfather the other day. The amount of times somebody's like, you think I'm going to make my godson an orphan? And they just kill. They just straight lie. Like a whole family of liars.

I like at the end when she's under Godfather when she's mad at Michael. Spitting on him? Yeah. She's like, I know you did him. And then Michael's like, I don't know what you're talking about. Carlos in Vegas. He didn't call? What's going on? You can ask me about my business this one time. Did you do it? No. Why? Door closed right on her. Right.

The only other Woodstage the best I had, other than Gazzo's Driver and the Steady Cam, was... Gazzo's Driver is just a comedic genius. He's just on the screen and you're like, oh my God, this guy. John Avison, the director, said the original ending, Apollo was carried out by the crowd and so was Rocky and he pulled Adrian up on his shoulders and they had the happiest night of their life and that was going to be it and they couldn't pull it off. So then they did this second ending and

When he walks down the aisle and sees Adrian because he lost and they hold hands and they walk into the back and it didn't work. And they decided to reshoot it with the Bill Connie music and came up with the third version of the ending. And Avild says that that saved the movie. Yeah. Like the movie, the ending would have sucked. It would have been a downer. It's so cool that you don't really leave the ring. Yeah. Like I don't think we wanted to see like. Really good reshoot. She legitimately comes into his world. Yes. Yeah.

By the way, about her performance, I think she actually grounds the movie with her performance. Yeah, she's good. I think at the beginning of the movie, she's kind of the only...

because even I mean Rock is a dude but he's very over the top kind of as well you know but I think like her subtlety and vulnerability kind of yeah she's like and she's also the person who's just like look around me like this sucks so much I have to make myself small so that this doesn't right kill me like you know she's just like I don't want to like see it I don't want to hear about it I don't want to like talk about it one of my hot takes about this movie is I don't think Pauly was a very good brother it was one of my takeaways yeah yeah

I don't know if you guys noticed that. Some of the stuff he did wasn't, it's coming. Great check order award. We said the 5 a.m. training ending the first time with the wide shot of Philly. Kid Cudi Pursuit of Happiness award, best needle drop. Could you change this to gonna fly now? I was, I had reflections, which is the one that samples cool in the gang, which was later used by Fresh Prince at summertime. So it's just like, yeah,

I like that too. Yeah. There's a record that plays at the end of the movie that was sampled by somebody else in a very popular song that I loved in the 90s. What song? Song's called Victory. By Notorious B.I.G.? Yeah. At the beginning, somebody raps on the song. But yeah. Somebody who might be in a lot of trouble these days?

When I hear the beginning of it, I just think immediately of that record. And I started doing it almost reflectively. I'm like, yo, the sun don't shine forever, but as long as it's... And then I was like, oh, wow. Whoa. Whoa. It's tough.

The Chess Rockwell and Brock Landers Award for Best Character Name. Easy. Rocky and Apollo. It's got to be Apollo Creed. Apollo Creed is the single best fictional name. So good. It's up there with, it's literally to me, up there with Darth Vader. It's also cool because he talks about names throughout the movie. He's like, oh no, that's not the name. I gotta say, don't sleep on Spider Rico. I really did enjoy him as well. All right, Van, you're up with the flex category. Did you have a flex category you picked? Yeah. Um...

The Pauly Award for asshole of the film. Goes to Pauly? Goes to Pauly. Dude, does this need to be a new award? This is also the weak link of the movie. The whole nine. I had him coming up. I had him coming up in what stage is the worst? There are very few characters that are pure asshole. Just all asshole. And it gets worse because we now know that at the end, after Rocky gets his fucking face beat in,

For 15 years building a fortune, what is the reason that Rocky loses all of his money? Rocky V never happened. I don't care. He loses all of his money and has to open up a small Italian restaurant. Because Pauly. Because Pauly gives power of attorney to some crazy person. And then Rocky gets all of his money taken. Yeah. Pauly's terrible. He is. I thought he had some decent moments in Rocky IV. Just not to defend Pauly, but.

Yeah, it's just him and Duke in Russia. There's no other trainers. You like him in a robot? No, just there was a couple. Rocky IV is probably the best version of Pauly. Rocky I Pauly is one of the worst human beings in a movie. He's a pimp. He literally pimps his sister out. He says, I go out and get your meat every morning. You forgot that. Then even give you my sister too.

you're such a loser I didn't get married because of you you can't live by yourself I put you two together and you don't forget it you owe me Rocky should have punched this guy to death Rocky should have at least thrown him out the fucking window but should have hit him and you know what would have happened nothing not a single person in that neighborhood would have been like not

Pauly! It would have just been like he had it coming. He said, you're busted to his sister. Yeah. That's like the worst thing you could possibly say to your sister. I mean, Rocky is kind of complicit because Pauly makes her go out with him.

Pauly comes in. He throws, he sacrifices Thanksgiving turkey. That's an all-time asshole move. She goes, it's Thanksgiving. I can't go on a date because I'm making a turkey. And it's like a really normal response. It's not like she's like, I have social anxiety. I can't go on a date. She's like, I've been making your fucking dinner all day. I've been making a Thanksgiving turkey. This dude takes the turkey, throws it out of the window, and then eats a piece of it. So he gets some turkey for himself.

And she's got to go out with Rock on Thanksgiving. She's got to go to the Stink House after the ice rink with no Thanksgiving dinner. He's an abomination. It really jumps out every time you watch it because in the 70s, it's like, ah, Pauly, that irascible...

Can you imagine living in between Rocky and Pauly where those two assholes are like yelling out the window, like, oh, Pauly, I got your sister. Yeah. My sister's a pig. It's just like, I would just be like, come on, guys. Pauly Panino. Yeah, we need a Pauly Panino, why is this character so awful category, something like that. What's with you? I had the, for the Butch's Girlfriend Award for weak link in the film, either Pauly or the, just,

The Rocky Adrian courting scenes are so slow now in 2025. They're just, yeah, it's 25 minutes of content that now you probably do nine. Yeah. It's,

25 minutes. I like the dating. The skating rink. I know you like the skating rink at the same time. If there's a transcript of it, it would be the worst transcript ever. I think the problem with the skating rink is it could have just ended with a kiss at the skating rink and that would be the end of the first date. And instead he's like, let's go back to my house and I'll show you my girls. You won't come in? That's the point. It's the skating rink. Then he has to convince her to come inside. Then he has to convince her to stay inside. Then he's got to show the guns. Then he's got to do the whole, it's like, all right, we get it.

And then he starts denying his bodily fluids. That's the tough part, you know, gets her hooked on it. And then he's just like, no. Cause at the end, she becomes like a little, little mix. Yeah. She's ready. She jumps on it. Well, she's discovered parts of herself that she didn't know existed. She's become a sexual human being. Right. My flex choice. The Steven Seagal, hard to kill a word for, did this movie need a better intimacy coordinator? Um,

He kind of mauls her a little bit in the first kiss. There's no kind of. Yeah, I'm just, I'm trying to be kind of rocky. It's a little bit of a mauling. He also, I mean, she doesn't have a lot of options in that scene. Like he's kind of like, I got my phone taken out. She's like, can I use the phone? He's like, it's a little uncomfortable. Yeah. Yeah. He subtly asked for consent. I'm going to kiss you now. But at that point,

She was in a spot and I don't feel like she felt like she could do anything else. I also just, the another one I would add is the Sean Penn award for excellence in smoking. I thought Stallone smoking was excellent, but we need to maybe add another cigarette award here, which is the Sylvester Stallone award for smoking so much in a movie that you quit smoking in real life. In real life. He quit after Rocky. Cause he was like, it was too gross. I'd smoked so much on Rocky. I had to, I had to quit. Oh, interesting. I didn't know that. That wasn't in my research. Stallone is for quitters. Yeah. Wow.

Woodstage is the worst. Everything about Pauly.

Chuck Wepner's body's going to dry up. What mean thing didn't Paul say to his sister? No one says, Paul, you piece of shit. Shut up. Yeah. Right. Nobody, he, he, nobody punches him at a bar. He disses the way she looks. He disses her age. He disses everything. I thought about quitting drinking last night, watching Paul. Yes. It's like, this is not Chuck Wepner. That whole story is the worst. Um,

You mentioned the fight crowd scene, CR. This is the biggest kind of nitpick all these years later where I just wish somebody had done a George Lucas and just paid the 50 grand to CGI some fans all over the place. For the re-release and stuff? Yeah, just if you're going to be like, hey, we got Rocky on Blu-ray, just spend the 50K. Maybe James Cameron could stop making Avatar movies and instead...

single-handedly populate the spectrum. Like how we want to be the sports movie consultants. Like James Cameron should be like, let me just help out a couple of these classics. I'll just put some fans in. Fincher is like moving curtains in Panic Room. Like we can get Fincher on the crowd here. You guys want James Cameron to fix Rocky? He invented a submarine and went to the deepest part of the ocean. Right. Can't he have some fans? Right. That's what he's into.

And then Garrett Brown, the Steadicam guy, not taking points in the picture is age-worse. What else do you have? Anything? I think Rocky's advice to that 12-year-old girl, you use bad words and maybe you end up becoming a whore. Marie, the little whore who hung out at the Atomic Hockey Shop. It is a leap.

Hang out with those guys. Use a couple of bad words. I always want to have a kid to say that. You just be like, oh, you use bad words. Become a little whore. Well, and then the weird part about it, this is another what's aged to worst, is watching that girl in this movie. She then becomes the Rocky Balboa love interest. Remember? The girl he starts dating. Yeah. That's the girl he starts dating in Rocky Balboa. Are you serious? Are you kidding me? That's like how they reconnect. Yeah.

I don't think I've seen Rocky Balboa or I can't remember it. Wait, wait, wait. Rocky Balboa was the one. That's the one with Antonio Tarver. With Antonio Tarver. It's not a very good movie. And Adrian's dead by this point? Adrian's dead. And he starts hanging out with. Marie LaLure from the Atomic Hoagie Shop. Yeah. Yes. Take it back. Do, do, do, do. Any other one stage worse? Yeah, just Pauly as the brother. You just blew my fucking mind with that. Sorry. Oh, white doo-wop groups. Yeah, it was a tough one.

Ruffalo Hannah Rubinick Partridge overacting word. It's good acting, but it's got a good Adrian freaking out on Polly. Yeah. I cook for you! Yeah. Just like she goes up a level. So that's the thing with her is she is a fantastic actress, obviously, but when she turns it up to that point, like when she turns it up in the Carlo scene. The Bafangul? The Bafangul. The Bafangul. Oh, she's going to see a little whore! In two. Marisa Lange.

Or at the Atomic Coney shop. And two, she's a different character. So like, it's like pretty solid the whole way through. She never has to like turn it up. But when she turns it up, sometimes it gets away from her. All right. The CR thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford. Hottest take award. Did you have one, CR? By far, the most interesting non-Big Three character in this movie, not Rocky, Adrian, or Apollo, is by far Gotso. And...

I don't know how much of a, whether it makes it a better or worse sports movie, but it's a much more interesting movie if Gotso tries to like assert his control over Rocky for the second half. Tries to get him to fix the fight? I just think Joe Spindel is awesome in this. Obviously also in The Godfather. Or Godfather 2. And it would just be so cool if he was like,

Everybody's putting money on you going down to third. He gives him the 500 bucks and you think he wants it. That's when you think he's starting to like maybe try to get in on him a little bit. And I was like, this would have been so cool if we had two more Gotso scenes and two less Pauly scenes. Well, what's interesting about this, a great takes here. The original script, which was much darker, it had Rocky throwing the fight. Yeah. And Mickey was a racist.

Those were the two things that they softened. In this movie, he's just racist against Italians. Right. Yeah. He's just irascible. Do you have a hottest take, Vin? I do not. I have one. Actually, I mean, I've already done this hottest take. I mean, this is the beginning of the greatest love story of our time. Which was? Rocky and Apollo. Yeah.

Oh, yeah, you did that. Yeah, Rocky goes on to... You almost caused a riot. Oh, yeah. I have... I'm going old school with a super hot, hot take. Because I feel like we've gotten... We have rational hot takes now. I'm going hot. We got away from our principles. Yeah. If this movie didn't exist...

Philadelphia would basically be Delaware with more attitude, a nicer art museum, and a couple pro sports teams. That's fucked up, though. Yeah. First of all, Delaware is a state. Hot take. Delaware is an entire state. That's fine. They're probably about the same size. No, that's not true. But you think that if Rocky didn't exist... I think Rocky really made Philadelphia.

That's my hot take. What would it be? Boston? I don't know. Wouldn't we fucking knock out the British and create an America? Yeah, fucking. Raises. Yeah.

It was an attempt to do a hottest take, but it is funny how much this movie means to Philadelphia. Yeah. That it almost became like another sports team. Philadelphia has actual real legendary bosses. In 1980, they win the fucking NBA championship. I get it. It's not like we were in the desert. You had the Flyers titles in the 70s. I get it. Yeah, but like Philly is...

It's kind of between Washington and New York. Like real, like legitimate boxing legends. Like no bullshit. Like fucking real, the biggest boxing icon from Philly. Look at Jem from the fucking town over there. It'd be Baltimore if it wasn't for this. I'm just trying to bring the hottest take back to where it used to be. Casting what ifs. United Artists wanted a well-established star.

Redford, who I think gets just mentioned for every movie ever. Ryan O'Neill and Burt Reynolds actually make sense and James Caan makes sense. Like if I'm thinking about Hollywood back then. Ryan O'Neill is way too good looking. Too waspy. Yeah. I'm not saying make sense in the movie. I'm saying make sense

I could see the studios being like, here's the list of actors we want in this Rocky movie. I was going to save this for recasting couch. You could even call this a lukewarm take. What is this movie if it's James Caan as Rocky and Harvey Keitel as Pauly? Oh.

Or a John Cazale as Pauly. Like if you have... I think James Caan has too much baggage at this point to be Rocky. What do you mean? Because we know him from Godfather and a bunch of big movies. I think Rocky being an unknown really helps. Hmm.

I think it worked out great. Like, Burt Reynolds, same thing. He's been in too many things. Yeah, those guys are just too movie star-ish. Yeah. I needed somebody that you're almost rooting for him in real life, too, as he's in the movie. This was interesting. Ken Norton was targeted for Apollo Creed, pulled out, and they gave it to Carl Weathers. Stallone wanted Harvey Keitel as Pauly. Probably a better movie.

Cary Snodgrass, I don't even know who that is, was chosen to play Adrian and they had a money dispute and they auditioned a bunch of people including Susan Sarandon and Cher. And Sarandon they really liked but they thought she was just too pretty to be Adrian. Oh, Cary Snodgrass was in Bill Rider. I remember her. This is my favorite though. They wanted Lee Strasberg for Mickey and he wanted too much money. Is this before 2? Godfather 2? Right after. Oh, so yeah, because he didn't even want to

He wasn't even trying to act in movies, right? Yeah. No one knows who gave the order, but I heard it. I wasn't angry. Wasn't angry. I said, this is the business we've chosen. There's not even a statue of the man. The... Who was street named after him. The Rosado Brothers. And then, uh...

Yeah, that's it for Casanova. I know I have a partner. I think I know the answer to this, but we're going to do the category anyway, just because Van Seer, the Van Lantner word for it, did this movie need more black people? Zero. Okay. Wow. Best that guy's coming up. I think we have to take one more break.

Best that guy award. Joe Spinell, I think he's not eligible. Oh, for real? Yeah, he's Joe Spinell. I think it's Thayer David. He's a graduated that guy. I think it's Thayer David. Thayer David is Juergens, the manager, or the promoter. He's in a bunch of cool stuff. I didn't know what his name was. As soon as I saw Joe Spinell, I was like, he's clearly the one, but I guess, okay. No, he's Joe Spinell. Stan Shaw was another one, but I think he's Stan Shaw who played Dipper. Hmm.

And then Frank Stallone is Frank Stallone. Yeah, the doo-wop guy. Now, do you think Frank was like, me and my boys have a doo-wop group and we'd love to get just 10 seconds of screen time? I think Sly's like, can we get Frank in the movie and see if we can get him like 20 bucks? Dion Waiters is a hopping category. We got Marie the Teenage Delinquent. Tony Burton as Duke. Marie the Little Whore. Joe Spinello as Gazzo.

Stu Nahan and Bill Baldwin, but my pick is Buddy the Driver. You think Burgess is in too much of it? Yeah, he's in too much. He's like the number three star in the movie. I think it's Gazzo's driver. Hey, Rock, did you get the number of the license plate that hit your face? He's the definition of the award. That's right. For sure. By the way, me and my dad used the license plate joke over and over again.

That was like, that's 20 years got out of that one. Recasting couch. I'm not touching it. You want to touch it? No, I was just saying like, I think that there is a different version of Pauly that's like a little bit more... Likeable? Palatable. Yeah. Yeah.

And that, that, John Cazale may feel like he's played the failed brother a few too many times. Yeah. He's got a shit ton of charisma. Yeah, he would have definitely been like a more likable version. Yeah, like what if he was like a skinny kind of like nobody ever paid attention to him guy. Not like a raging alcoholic who tried to put logos on the back of people's robes. That's smart. Half-assed internet research. We did some of these already. I like that Duke didn't have a name in the movie. Mm-hmm.

They didn't name him until Rocky II. The first two Steadicam films were Bound for Glory and Marathon Man, so it was all around the same time. They shot the ice skating date that way because they couldn't afford extras. Burgess had a fake cauliflower ear and a tube stuck up his nostril to make his nose look fucked up. And then Burt Young did some weird stuff to get in a character. He covered himself with vermouth on his neck.

He wore too many clothes so he was hot. He wanted to be like uncomfortable and angry during the filming. Yeah, he takes a slug of whatever he's drinking in the meat locker once. Yeah. Like his lower lip is all wet. Yeah. And he's like, ah, Christ, Pauly. He's like a disgusting roast beef character. Yeah. Um,

When they did the climactic fight, they didn't choreograph it and then realized they had to and had to basically stop and go back. Oh, so they just went in there all vibes. Yeah, they were like, oh, you do this and I'll do this. And then they're like, wait, this is a disaster. Because they kind of cast Weathers off of like a sparring session anyway. So I think they were probably like, we can just fight. Something else, you, like Stallone actually cares a lot about boxing. And obviously everyone knows that. But as the movies get on, you can see that he gets, he becomes like a much more athletic, much better boxer. Yeah, I think that there's...

You could make the argument that one of the things that's aged the worst is like they leave this conception of Rocky in this movie and then he gets, I think, even more, he gets smarter and more physically talented as he gets older, which probably isn't the case for the boxers. This was a really good one. The poster, when he goes in and sees the posters, like those aren't my trunks.

That was an actual mistake they made and they felt like they had to address it. So they added that scene so that they would be covered for people to be like, wow, this poster's like this. It's just another really good touch from the script. It's just like him being in the spectrum before the fight is one of my favorite little moments of the movie where he's just like, shit, this is too big for me. Well, and then the spectrum doesn't become the spectrum for most of the fight because there was some sort of union issue in Philly. Imagine that. There was a you think you're better than me union moment and they had to film a lot of it in LA. It felt...

It doesn't look like the spectrum because you feel it in Rocky II. You're like, oh, this is the spectrum. Spectrum is a cool place. Is it because of the Rocky movies that I have such a 70s, not 70s, I wasn't around, but an 80s and early life connection to the spectrum when I didn't care about Philly Springs? No, that's Steve Zinkoff and Dr. J. And it was Barkley. Julius Irving! It had a great logo. The spectrum was cool. Yeah. Yeah.

I also like with the spectrum and I don't know, cause it was a hockey basketball arena. Don't try to crawl back into Philly's favor. Listen, I'm loyal to the hottest take. We're supposed to throw hot takes around. There was something about the spectrum, the layout of it where the fans seemed a little closer. Yeah. I don't know how they did it. And the fan, it just felt like you were very like on top of, they were the first, I felt like seventies arena to move people closer. Cause if you look at some of this stuff, like I noticed this when we were doing the Celtics doc,

Some of the, even the early seventies, the courtside seats, they're like 30 feet off the court. Yeah. And then the spectrum was like, let's put everybody close. Kentucky Duke highlights from the later shot game. Like people are like so close. Like, yeah. So up on, on the game. Yeah. It's cool. Uh, last thing gonna fly now. How high do you think it got on the billboard? Hot 100 list. I'm going to go top 10. Yeah. Seven. How about,

one yeah oh wow I was gonna say number one I don't know if you're gonna do my flex category but it was gonna be yours is coming okay isn't it coming I think I deleted it damn

No, we'll do it now. Okay. My okay, motherfucker moment when the movie, wait, let me redo that. My okay, motherfucker moment when the movie jumps up a notch is when gonna fly now drops like 90 minutes in. Cause you're really like, all right, man, this is kind of, kind of sleepy boxing movie, man. What are we going to do? And then it's like, you just,

It really gets the adrenaline going. He's racing the boat and Sierra's like, you know who they're looking at? They're looking at us. LAPD! Ha ha! Apex Mountain. Stallone. I think we've litigated this 10 other times. I think his Apex Mountain was that Rocky III Rambo. Yeah. 82. Yes. Yeah. Is this Apex Mountain for a woman taking her glasses off and getting that much hotter? Oh, man. Wow.

Van's going through all his porn searches now. Oh no, it's easy. I can go one time Lisa Ann. But wow, is it? It would have to be. It's a big step up. Also the glasses are really ugly. She's all that. But this one would have to be bigger than those. But there's another one. I don't actually personally when she takes her glasses off, I'm not like, whoa, Adrian's hot. But I'm just, it is a classic kind of like

She takes them off and it's like now all of a sudden. What a good question. I'm trying to think there's one that I'm missing and people are going to, it's one I'm missing where the guy takes it off and then this woman screams, but I can't remember that. This is probably the most famous though. Probably starts the whole deal. Well, so the glasses are so ugly. Right. They're like out of like 1925. They're like pharmacy glasses or whatever. Talia Shire.

I'm going to say yes for her too. I have yes for her for sure. Yeah. And she got a couple of projects out of this, but none of them made it. Interesting career. Yeah. Like all big, doesn't have much of a presence other than, but like every single movie she's in is like,

Kind of like a hitter. I want to take care of you now, Michael. Yeah. Jason Schwartzman tells this really funny story about like for most of the beginning of his life, people calling his mom, Adrian. And I forgot that's his mom. Yeah. And like, he's just like, why are they calling you Adrian? And she would just be like, yeah, they're confused. They don't understand. And then like, he starts to realize like a hundred people can't be wrong when they're like, Hey Adrian. Apex mountain for shy girlfriends. CR.

It might be. Yeah, I think it is. It might be. I was also going to ask, is this Apex Mountain for withholding sex while training and or competing in sports? Is it this or Bull Durham? Bull Durham. Because I think he's still having sex. Yeah. Because you know what? What, you think Rock is still having sex? I think he woke up a beast with Adrian. I think there's a lot of time for thinking in the fish store. Yeah, Van knows.

I'm being for real. Like, look, I think there was a before and after. She climbs on him one time and she's doing a little, she's pecking at him. He can't do it. Yeah, because he's like, you know, I'm trying to save all my juices. Yeah, yeah. Women Weaken the Legs, though, is a classic movie.

Classic line. Yeah. Classic line. Well, what's the phenomenon behind that? Because you have more testosterone if you haven't shot a load in a while? Is that what we're supposed to think? I don't think sports science was really as... Did they ever cover this with John Brankus? Dog, I swear. Maybe they should try this with Embiid. No, not November. See if your knee swelling goes down. HBO Boxing. Who is now out for the season, by the way. Fuck off, Jack. No.

Breaking news on a Friday. I'm sorry, Joanne. I was just kidding. Wow. Oh, God. I was going to say maybe they'd try that with Anthony Edwards. Zion. John Avildsen, even though he won the Oscar for this, could make a case it's Karate Kid. Karate Kid, yeah. Because then he's got Rocky and Karate Kid. Karate Kid definitely made more.

Whatever happened, so did Avildsen fall out with Stallone? How come he couldn't, they wouldn't? I don't think he was a giant boxing fan. Well, Stallone wanted to direct the second one himself. He wanted to do the written and directed by Sylvester Stallone movie. Philadelphia Apex Mountain CR? I'll let you decide. You know, I think the founding of our nation, probably 1776 is a pretty big one. Solid. For some.

And then... Not everybody was in the same team. The 83 Sixers title? Beating the Pats in 18. This is up there, though. Ending the Mahomes dynasty? Yeah, I think that this, if you were carving a Mount Rushmore of Philadelphia, they'd put Rocky with his hands in the air on it. One of the most notable images of Philadelphia. Mm-hmm. Burt Young. Yeah. What did Burt Young ever... It's probably Rocky III when this character becomes more tolerable, at least somewhat.

Best Burt Young, though, is Back to School with Rodney Dangerfield. Oh, yeah, where he plays the driver slash muscle. Amazing, amazing performance, man. We haven't done Back to School, right? No, it's on the list. Spider Rico, definitely. Ice skating dates. Was there a better ice skating date? There is an ice skating date in Happy Gilmore. That's amazing. Oh, that's a good one. You're right. Cutting Edge, is that the figure skating date? Topec. Yeah. Rocky movies, no. Boxing movies? Boxing movies was the last one I had. Okay.

So give me, how are you defining this? Because a couple years later, Raging Bull comes out. Like, you know, I think... Maybe it's rewatchable boxing movies. Fine. I don't know. I think, aesthetically, I think Raging Bull is a better film. Raging Bull is better than this movie, but this movie is like much more, I think, culturally significant than Raging Bull. If you're going to a desert island, do you take Raging Bull or Rocky? You take Rocky. Honestly, I would take Raging Bull. Really? Yes. Interesting. Yeah. Raging Bull is a lot more interesting to watch than Rocky is. Wow. It's a...

Raging Bull is so funny to me, man. It's just, it's a hilarious movie. It's like, it's just, why'd you fuck, why'd you fuck him? Why'd you do, she just said she didn't do it. Why are you asking her why? She just said she didn't do it. And you know, why do we use Raging Bull Falls as a little bit of rock? I mean, you get Pesci kind of playing the Bert Young, Moriarty's the Adrian, you know. Cruise or Hanks? Cruise. I went with Cruise. I think it's Cruise.

I guess it's Cruise. Yeah. I can't buy Hanks as a heavyweight boxing challenger. You can buy Tom Cruise as a heavyweight boxing challenger? Okay, because I think he would do like six months of prep for it. He would gain all the weight and then would lose the weight during the five weeks of filming. I am going to say Hanks, but you guys obviously win this democracy. Cruise? I go with Cruise. Okay. Scorsese or Spielberg? Is this the perfect movie if they co-direct it? Huh.

The inspirational side of Spielberg, the gritty side of Scorsese. Yeah. Like, Scorsese handles all the Rocky, Pauly type, but then the bigger step back. Can you imagine if Spielberg got his hands on, like, the last fight and, like... I think it's Scorsese. I mean, I have Scorsese, but a co-director situation. He directs Raging Bull a few years later. The opera entrance into the ring is...

This is becoming one of my favorite categories. What role would Philip Seymour Hoffman have played? Pauly? Pauly. I got Pauly. Or Gotso's driver. How about Juergens? Juergens, maybe. Yeah. Gotso's driver? Hey, Rock. Hey, Rock. Take her to the zoo. Picking nets. So Rocky just waltzes into the spectrum one day before the fight to look around.

Let him in? Yeah. He's on the fight. He's on the fight card. Hey, I'm Rocky Balboa. I'm fighting here tomorrow. Goes all the way down to the spectrum just to go look at the things hanging down? It's a little weird. No, it's not weird at all. You could go in there and fuck around with the ring to make sure that the ring is... Nobody's in there. Nobody's setting up anything. It's just completely empty. This is my biggest one. Five weeks. Plenty of time to prepare to fight the heavyweight champion of the world. I don't feel like 40 guys are turning that fight down.

They make it seem like, oh, not enough time. Nobody's going to take it. It's like, oh, I got the feeling. So many people are taking that. But Apollo picks Rocky for the specific story, right? But he does that only because everybody keeps turning the fight down. Oh, okay. He's like, oh, he's in England. It's like he can get back from England. How much would Macaulay take a fight in 10 hours? And they actually say that in the movie. They go, this guy, he goes, oh, he moved to California. He gained 50 pounds. So what? Bring him on and make the fight. I actually got the feeling that no one actually wanted to fight Creed.

possible but five weeks is more than enough for 150 grand in 1976 Andrew Ruiz Jr. took the fight on basically I just think in real boxing people take it the string trick of putting string around your ankles keep your balance that seems like bullshit is that Mick's primary contribution aside from the cut man like what is what else does Mick teach him

This is something that I thought. He gives him a string around his feet. I'm willing to have the combo. Apollo is a much better trainer than Mickey is. Yeah. Apollo is way better. Apollo actually transforms Rocky. He changes Rocky. Apollo is a much better trainer than Mickey is. Woman weak in legs. We learned that. Go to the body.

You need better balance. That's three things. Stop smoking. Yeah. Okay. Rocks in a much better spot five weeks later than he was in the start. And I got a guy who's going to open up your eyeball in the 15th round. Yeah, got a great cut guy with a razor blade. Any other nitpicks for you guys?

There's that scene where Van talked about being quite moved by Rocky doing the where were you 10 years ago scene with Mick. And the blocking of that scene is kind of weird, but it's like the doors are closing and opening and Mick's all the way down that hallway and then almost outside and he still is hearing this speech that Rocky's giving for the most part at regular speaking voice. I can't hear my wife in the other room if the water is on, so there's no fucking way that Mick can hear this monologue. Right.

halfway down the stairs. 76-year-old Mick? Yeah. He's been punched in the head 7,000 times in his life. There's no way. He's like, what? My nit to pick is somebody would have gotten to Adrian before this.

There's just no way. Oh. In the neighborhood, someone would have gotten to her before this. A fish store customer? Fish store customer. Coming in to buy some piranhas? Somebody coming in to buy the dog or something like that. Somebody would have gotten to her before this. Well, there's a question. So Rocky and Pauly are best friends. And Rocky's like 29, 30? 30, yeah.

The first time it occurred to him to make a run at the fish store girl? Well, I think in the movie, it seems like he's been going in a lot and making his like, I make a joke in the morning and a joke in the afternoon, right? And unfortunately, she can't communicate. Yeah. Until she takes her glasses off. She's like, let's smash. I'm in.

She gets it. She really enjoyed it. She changes. She starts dressing different. She does. The dick starts making her dress different. She has a red coat. Like she starts, I'm telling you, she totally changes her style. She starts spending money that he hasn't made yet. Right. She's like, I got a red coat. You better hand that ring. That would have been a better hot of steak for me. Here's why virginity is overrated. Whoa.

sequel, prequel, prestige TV all by Castor and Touchable they've done pretty much all of those versions they haven't done a TV adaptation of this universe yet oh you know what they were going to right wasn't there a television show of some sort coming in the Creed universe no am I making this up we're done with Rocky let's stop Amazon in the MGM purchase and I think that they were going to do like the usual make it a universe kind of thing

Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Trejo, Doris Burke, Sam Jackson, Nell, Byron Mayo, Barney Cousins, Tony Romo, Harling Mays, Chris Collinsworth, Daniel Plainview, Longlegs, Wilford Brimley in The Firm. And I want to kind of add Gotso's driver to this going forward. Yeah.

take her to the zoo the movie is better with God's Best Driver I was gonna say oh Mike you see you don't just have to take Adrienne to the zoo she likes the ice rink too I miss Collinsburg yeah it's been like two months for him Tony Romo I just gotta hop in her step Jim I just gotta

She loves having sex, Jim. She's a different lady. She's talking now. This is a lady who loves exotic fish and sex with Rocky Balboa, Jim. It's a sexual awakening, Jim. It's making her feel things she's never felt before, Jim. Just what Oscar? Who gets it? I got Stallone for screenplay. Okay. I think that's fair. And this year, you know? Yeah.

Probably unanswerable questions. Do women weaken legs, Van? Did we get a decision? I was about to say, HBO did a whole thing. It was called Sex and the Sweet Science. Yeah. Where they did like a, HBO Boxing did it back in the day. It might have been Showtime Boxing. Was this like set in Vegas in the Bunny Ranch or whatever that show was? They merged the two shows? Right now. It was called Cat House. But they talked about it and they got science guys together and there's no scientific proof to it.

Women do not, in fact, weaken legs. What were the odds on FanDuel heading into this fight? No, man. I don't think it would go higher than minus 2,000, but I think Creed is minus 2,000. So what were the Tyson-Buster Douglas odds? Is this like 40 to 1? Yeah, that was like 30 to 1. That was the last time they were that high. So maybe 30 to 1 here. The over-under for rounds...

I think it's two and a half. Two and a half, yeah. Yeah. For sure. And people are banging the under. Now, what happens- This is where Gatsu gets involved. Yeah. This is where Gatsu- Gatsu's like, you go out there, you can acquit yourself decently the last two rounds, and then you got to go down. Yeah. What happens to the live odds once Apollo goes down in the first round? I think after the second round, it's just hard. It's like Apollo is now like minus 400. Oh, yeah. Yeah. There's like a lot of Rocky money.

What piece of memorabilia would you want or not want from this movie? I gotta tell you, not a lot. There's not a lot of showering going on in this movie. So I don't really know what I would walk away with. I guess... The gloves would be cool from the fight. The gloves, yeah. Or Rocky's gloves, his little...

Oh, his little training gloves? The one where he's fucking bleeding all over them from punching the knee. I really like the Italian stallion gray sweatshirt he wears for three months straight, but I can't imagine it smells awesome. You have to fucking fumigate it. Yeah. I was looking at some of the Mickey, like the training camp, like pullovers they have and stuff like that. I think some of the posters outside of the gym would be cool.

Yeah, there's a poster in Juergens' office that I really liked. Maybe the photo of Mickey when he was a younger fighter. That's all messed up. That's pretty cool. It would be cool if you started having, like, every day me and Sean and Mal and Van had to put our shit in lockers and then every once in a while we'd come in. It's on Skid Row. We'd put our shit on Skid Row. Like last week's podcast.

Adrian's Joy of Sex book. Maybe that could be it. Adrian's Kama Sutra? She's like, chapter five. Adrian's like, how about some tantric? Adrian, weaken the legs. Rock, lie this way. Yeah. The Coach Finstock Award for Best Life Lesson. Don't let anyone tell you you're a bum. Be a thinker, not a stinker. Mine was, you'd be happier if you were just dumber.

Rock is a dumb, happy character. Have you given up calling Ryan? Yeah, we went 0 for 5. It's like, it's just, he doesn't answer. He lets it ring and then calls back 10 minutes later, guy. It's fucking... He's a full-time screener, even with people he knows. It's unbelievable. Yeah, that's what he does. You call Rosillo and he... We could give him a heads up. We could text him and be like, hey, in about an hour, I'm going to call. That wasn't the idea. I know, I know. It's always like, he's always lived in ways... I would like to know what he thinks of this, though. Yeah.

Best double feature choice. Would you go Rocky II or something else? I'd go Raging Bull. Oh. I went Saturday Night Fever. Oh, I like it. This movie made me want to watch Saturday Night Fever for some reason.

What about you? Rocky 2. I think you have to go right from here to the second one. And then just make sure you skip over about 40 minutes when Adrian goes in a coma. So does the audience. When we do Rocky 2 rewatchables, it's going to be about 50 minutes. It's my least favorite one. But the last 25 minutes are great. When do you stop counting Rocky movies? Four? Yeah. Well, you know what? I like Rocky 5.

Rocky V is the one with Tommy Morrison? Tommy Morrison. I like Rocky V. It was V and then Balboa? I despise V, but I will admit that the last 30 minutes of V is pretty good. I gotta go see Rocky Balboa to see if Marie's in this fucking thing. That's the whole, it's a huge part of the movie. I've seen the movie before. I don't think that I connected that that was the character from the first movie. So who won the movie? Obviously, Sly Stallone. Here's my question.

Have we ever had somebody win a movie harder than this? I feel like this might be the number one who won the movie ever. We would have said Tarantino, but Stallone as a writer and a star and then a 50, it has to be Stallone, right? In fact, I would say we could rename it the Stallone who won the movie award, but no one's ever really done this. We've only seen, at least since I started following movies, which is right around when this movie came out,

There's only been a couple of rags to riches stories like this with stars. There's also not that many times where people have successfully, like stars born, where people are like, I'm directing this shit or I'm writing it and I'm starring in it and I'm going to learn to do something. That's the problem. They're not going to let you do this very often. You're going to have to have such a serendipitous set of circumstances for them to let you write it, star in it when you're not bankable at all.

Tarantino is one, but he had true romance before, so he at least had a foot in the door. Chaz Palminteri kind of did this. You're talking about for Pope? Yeah, for Pope. Oh, I mean, he had Reservoir Dogs too. That's what I mean. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he had Lawrence Whitman and all of that. He had a foot in the door. Julia Roberts is another one, but she had Steel Magnolias and she was in Mystic Pizza. She was around and I knew who it was. This was just for somebody to come out of nowhere and immediately become an A-plus list star.

I am really racking. I'm trying to think. I can't. I legitimately can't. You go Pacino and the Godfather, maybe, but he'd even done Panic in Needle Park. Pacino was already in Panic in Needle Park and stuff. Like he was a big deal.

Yeah, I can't. Certainly not in the last 30 years. It's nowhere near the accomplishment. And even he, I was going to say Orson Welles doing Citizen Kane, but he was already considered a boy genius coming out of radio plays and his theater company. He had already done War of the Worlds on radio. Did you say Charles Holmes on Midnight Boys? That's a big one. Hey, man, respect. Respect the pew-pew. It's pew-pew.

We're going to start fucking over your shit, watch. We start fucking over your shit. That's when you're going to take it seriously. Where did the pew-pew come from? Laser guns. I was like, yeah, because we're the Midnight Boys. We're like gunslingers. We're instant reaction. So we just shoot from the hip. Pew-pew. Maybe we'll do beep-beep for us here. Okay. For the rewatchables? Beep-beep. Beep-beep. Beep-beep.

All right, that's it. So now we've done three Rockies. Yeah. The only one, and we've done Creed. So we've actually, I guess, done four Rockies. Creed 3, 4, and 1. Because people always ask why we didn't do Rocky yet, even though we'd done 3 and 4. And I actually think that we handled it perfectly. 3, 4, 1 is the prequel, and kind of end with 2, which is the least rewatchable of the four. Did you see Creed 3? I did. Thoughts?

I thought Majors was really good. He's really good in everything. He's really good. And I think I liked it more than I liked Creed 2. I can't remember Creed 2. Creed 2 was with the Russian. Yeah. I don't remember too much. Yeah. You know, I think it's time for the franchise now that we're at 50 years. It's funny that it's outlived CR. Because you're not 50. Nope.

So this franchise is older than you are. Two years before I was born. Yeah. But, or they shot it two years before I was born. I was going to say that what they need to do is get back to what makes this story so meaningful is that it's a guy out of nowhere and you can't do that if it's like, it's a Paul Creed son. Yeah. I mean, there is a move left that the, the shields movie, which I really liked, but there's a female Rocky angle that they could do. They wanted to flip it. Hmm.

basically do all the same stuff and have it be... and have Pauly be the sister. But nobody wants that. Just come up with your own movie. We're probably too cynical for Rocky now. We've seen... We want... To me...

Like, looking at it like this, you're just going to ask so many questions. Like, why didn't he fight amateurs? Like, whatever, blah, blah, blah. Like a guy with 21 losses becoming like, it's just... Could you do a Rocky that was basically UFC? I guess that's Warrior. Yeah. I mean, but even with Creed... I mean, you could. UFC's sitting there. It's weird. There just hasn't been enough UFC movie content at a high level. Warrior is by far the best one. But yeah, I guess you could do Rocky UFC. But...

I mean, yeah, I guess you could. I don't know if the UFC guys... Or you make this more of an erotic thriller with Adrian's... It's filtered on Adrian's Awakening. That's the movie. That's it. Is that what you would call it? Adrian's Awakening. Adrian's Awakening. A new way to look at the Rocky series. I got it.

A different movie where, what's the mafia guy named Gato? Yeah. Where he actually hires Adrian to weaken Rocky's legs. Oh, so that it. So they're trying to have, or maybe not him, maybe Apollo hires Adrian. Her awakening is because Rocky needs his legs weakened in the movie. That's the second one. There's a brief twinkle in her eye when Clubber Lang is calling her out in Rocky III. Oh, she liked it.

You can see for one second, she's like, oh. She's like, maybe I'm a dark shark. Clubber. She's like, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she

I go three, four, one, five, two. Five over two. You hate two that much. I don't like two. Two is my least watched Rocky movie. But it's a really fun coming in 30 minutes. I like that they're like, we got to rush in and do this. Like, we got to make it. This movie starts the second the first one ends. To me, it's the least...

of the Rocky movies. Even five is original because Rocky has now fallen off of his perch. Four is original Cold War stuff. Three is the Rocky, the leap of the Rocky franchise. Two is like a continuation of one and one is just superior. I saw Rocky II in the theater with my best friend. Crowd standing.

during the fight scene of course like that's the only time I've ever seen the movie theater some non-whites people going fucking crazy yeah like it was like they were at like a fucking Patriots game it was nuts in Boston they probably run out and harass them Jesus come on they probably run hey salty motherfucker we show you more

I knew I should have brought up that story. Well, we won't invite you on the Rocky Tupac. Shout out to Dedham. But when we do Adrian's Awakening, you're there. I'm there, of course. Fancy our great Steve. Thanks to Jack Sanders as well. Shout out to Craig Horlbeck who wasn't there this time around for us, but we got the Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well. So you can check us out there. See you next week.