‘No Way Out’ With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Sean Fennessey
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If you're a fan of the inner workings of Hollywood, then check out my podcast, The Town, on the Ringer Podcast Network. My name's Matt Bellany. I'm founding partner at Puck and the writer of the What I'm Hearing newsletter. And with my show, The Town, I bring you the inside conversation about money and power in Hollywood. Every week, we've got three short episodes featuring real Hollywood insiders to tell you what people in town are actually talking about. We'll cover everything from why your favorite show was canceled overnight, which streamer is on the brink of collapse, and which executive is on the hot seat.

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The Rewatchables brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where you can find the big picture with Sean Fennessey. That's right. You can find, what's it called again? The Watch? Chris Ryan? Talk to Thrones? Talk to Thrones, The Watch. Philly Special? Yeah, the South Jersey Sixers, baby. Oh, yeah, that's happening. I'm not worried. Just every team's moving to New Jersey. My name is Bill Simmons. This is The Rewatchables. And there's no way out. Next.

They needed a hero. Understand he has a background in intelligence. It's two tours of naval intelligence. Get him here. He liked excitement. Take us somewhere. He wanted her. Their passion upset the balance of power. What's all this top-secret business I've been hearing about with the Pentagon? You know I work for Bryce? Then that makes two of us. This one can do things for me like no other woman I've ever met. Behind the cover-up. Try and understand.

The power. The important thing is to abort an investigation before it ever gets to you. You haven't told me everything. Who's running this thing at the Pentagon? The new boy, Farrell. So we can take the fall in case anything goes wrong. The loyalty. I love you. I promise I'll work everything out. They mean to kill me, Sam. Because of the truth, there's no way out. Kevin Costner. Gene Hackman. Sean Young. Will Patton.

all right no way out 1987. our guy raj wrote this knew this was coming early movies such as this are very hard to make for proof look at the wreckage of dozens of unsuccessful thrillers every year no way out is a superior example of the genre

No Way Out is what I chase every time I check out the film noir section of Tubi. Yes. Or the thriller section on Max. Or when Netflix throws the thrillers at us and you see like No Way Out. It's like, yeah, give me more No Way Outs. And you just go on down the line and they just don't make them. There's just not that many of them, CR. There's not. And it's like, man, what an all-time twist movie. It's really up there with Primal Fear and Sixth Sense for me in terms of

It makes the twist makes the movie more rewatchable. 100%. I almost did a twist pyramid, but decided against it. But yeah, it's Sixth Sense, No Way Out, Primal Affair, and Usual Suspects are the four that make you go. You're stomping all over my hottest take. But yeah. Well, our friend, Rembert, just randomly was watching this. Another Tubi a week and a half ago. It might have been on Tubi.

And was like, hey, I'm watching No Way Out. Text me and Wesley, knowing that we'd be excited about this information, which, by the way, I was. I think it was one of the reasons we're doing rewatchables. And it's like, whoa, Costner Young. And then later he just texted Sean Young, exclamation point. And then at the end, spoiler alert, he's like, whoa, he was a Russian. And I knew it was coming. It was like an hour after the Sean Young text. But yeah. And it's one of those when you rewatch this movie over and over again.

It's like, oh, he's ordering the Stoli. Should have caught it. Yeah. Should have caught it in 87. He's getting pretty squirrely when they go to Nina's apartment. Yeah. And Scott's getting too handsy. And he's like, I might have to glass this guy with a vase. It makes the movie so much more fun to watch. Yeah. So much more fun to revisit. And also, it's like, it makes Costner seem like a much better actor. Because Costner is not a great movie star, not known for his acting. Yeah. But in this movie...

He has information that we don't have and he's performing it. And when you revisit, you're like, oh, he's, he's giving us little signals. He's getting squirmy at the right moment. He's like tilting his body. He's doing stuff that he doesn't usually do as an actor. I love him in this. Well, cause there is, uh, this is just a Hitchcock movie that fucks. Right. And there is a basic Hitchcock movie at the center of this. I think you were, you and I were talking about the original version of the movie, the, the big clock and that it's,

Just a guy who's like trying to cover his own bases and cover his own ass. Is it a Turner movie classics? It is. It is. It's a noir classic from the 40s. But then you add the extra layer of espionage and a mole inside of the Department of Defense at the Defense Department and this kind of John Le Carre spy hunt story. And then you add on top of that, that like the guy who's falsely accused is actually the guilty one.

is great and it works so well in like this two hour bucket I think when you watch something like Presumed Innocent or you watch like some of the prestige series where they're like I'm trying to

like stretch this twist out over eight hours. Yeah. Like I, all right, this is now like beyond belief, but this you're like, Oh, he is a Russian. I watched it with my daughter who granted was probably on Snapchat half the time, but had the twist at the end and it didn't register with her right away. And you could just see, I was kind of looking over at her and I could just see the fucking light bulb go off and like,

He's Yuri? I was like, yeah. The opening...

And interrogation also does such a good job of not giving anything away. So much so that you basically forget that it happened. Yes. So when you go back to the end, you're like, it's true. Oh, right. This is how and that's like a convention. He's got the blood on his shoulder in the beginning. So you should know at the end. But but so much has happened. You just forget the beginning. You can't even imagine what had gone awry at that point. And you've completely forgotten about it. But it's it's it's a masterfully done twist. I really believe that.

Also, probably one of my, I'm sure you'll get to this, but one of my favorite DC movies. I had five things I wanted to get to. The first was the last minute twist piece, which I think is the enduring great thing about this movie. Are there twists gone wrong movies for you? That would have been a fun category. Oh, gosh. Like a twist that doesn't work? Just movies where they tried to... Well, I'll tell you, we were talking about this the other day. The Apple TV Plus show Sugar. Yeah.

Which we won't give the twist away, but the twist on that show is very stupid. And sometimes it's like you think you had a great idea and you could feel like everybody in the room who's working on a movie or a TV show is like,

we're going to blow people's minds with this. And then you see it and you're like, what? That's another example of something that if it came one hour and 45 minutes into a movie, your mind would probably be blown. But when it comes seven hours into a show, you're like, what am I doing with my life? Yes. Yeah, because there's been some, like Dressed to Kill has a big twist. But when you watch it, it's just being telegraphed. I totally agree. It's so hard.

there's a really terrible movie that I saw in the theater with my friend Nick Aida, The Mid-90s Color of Night with Bruce Willis. Yeah. Yes. Gene March. That has a massive stupid twist in it. And even as it's happening, you're like, come on, guys. Really? Yeah. Really? That's what we're doing? Basic Instinct was trying to

like flash the twist but then not it ducked a punch at the end though because it's like oh they just didn't do it yeah there were some movies like um Identity did you guys ever see that I think that's with um with uh uh John Cusack John Cusack yeah and it has a big twist at the end that like reveals how all these characters are connected to each other that's in the story that like

Playing by Heart did that too, that early Jolie movie with the family and it's all these interspersed characters. And then at the end, it's like, oh, they're all related. Yeah. So there's like Masquerade with Rob Lowe, which I think is a really solid discount film noir. Right. Get to be outdoors, get to be in the Cape.

There's some sex. Kim controls in it. She's not afraid to take her clothes off, I'll tell you that much. Okay. Have you revisited those scenes? No, it's another, you know, it's in that film noir stretch. The DC movie thing. This movie starts with a shot of the monument and the White House together and pans back and gives us the wide-out shot of the Capitol with all three of us in. With like, dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun. And you're just like, okay, I'm in.

We, when we were trying to figure out live rewatchables, what the DC movie was, and it's weird. There's been both a lot of DC movies, but not a lot of fun movies to do in front of a live crowd. And we talked about no way out. It was like, ah, this movie came out 37 years ago. We can't do this. But this to me is about as DC of a movie as you can get. Yeah. I mean, I think if this also like takes advantage of like,

the DMV part of it where it's like they get to go to Chesapeake. Right. You know, and it's got like all the Arlington. Yeah. You know, like all the farmhouses and then just like Joe House is driving across the border to place illegal bets for gambling's legal in Virginia. Joe House is probably like to the table to the left of Hackman at that breakfast meeting where you kind of see all of Washington from the balcony. Yeah, he's looking at the lines for that day. It's Hackman's. He's like, Alex Saar, 0 for 17. Yeah.

can only go up from here yeah the thing is house's expectations were zero so he's fine with all the bad we're testing that yeah we're testing it but yeah it's it's just a lot of like that outdoor brunch wherever the hell he's or breakfast when he sees uh joe don baker for adult johnson so dc-ish yeah yeah um and there's a there's a good chase scene where we get to see some dc i think we're going through the mall yeah we're in the mall it's

It's good. Most, I mean, most DC movies are about the president, right? So you're just like in the White House a lot. Yeah. Or you're, it's all the president's men and it's about the president, but it's in a newspaper. Very rarely is it like the suburbs where people live who work in Washington, DC. And if you're good men, they ultimately report to the president, you know? It's true. Chain of command. Sean, would you go? Officer on deck.

So the 70s DC thrillers that we all love, Parallax View, Condor, All Presence Men, go on and on. Is this a half-brother? Is this a younger brother? Is it a nephew? What is the relation of this movie to those movies? I guess it is related.

I heard a quote recently that I really liked, which is that the difference between drama and melodrama. In drama, characters drive the story. In melodrama, story drives the characters.

those movies are dramas. This movie is a melodrama. You know, this is like a lurid thriller. Yeah, it's not really a movie that's like about anything. You know, like when you look at like the themes of the movie, it's just a cool, sexy, fun. It's about something. Gene Hackman likes to get his horns on. That's what it's really about. Yeah, it's

She can do things to me that no other woman's ever done. But you wouldn't know that, would you, Scott? You don't understand, Scott. I guess it is about desire in a way. But it's not... Like, those movies are about paranoia and what was going on in the country at the time and how power works. And this movie seems like it's about those things. This movie's in the Cold War zone, though, which makes it very distinct to the 80s. Yeah. But it doesn't seem like... Where the Russians we were afraid of from...

Basically, till a year after this movie comes out. The thing that's both very much of its time, but it's kind of cool to go back and look at as a little bit of a time capsule.

is how even in this movie, there's an awareness that all of these people are just doing it for money and power that has nothing to do with ideology or defeating communism. It's just like, yeah, this company that's making a giant sub wants to just take as much taxpayer money as possible, and then there's forces moving against...

the secretary of defense or whatever yeah i mean is that what was happening in the plot because i've never figured it out yeah yeah i think it's actually crucial to the end of the very end of the movie is the summary and stuff i do think it's an accurate representation though of how the swinging dicks in dc make decisions where they're like this guy wants one thing so i want the opposite yeah on the inauguration day where they're like k street m street yeah good times are gonna keep going it's like oh god it's fucking gross there's a deleted scene where um

Fred Thompson is a huge Bullets fan and feels like there's a chance to get Arvita Sabonis from the Blazers, but it didn't really fit in with the plot. Release the house cuts. Yeah, it was like for the 88 Olympics, this guy's stock is only going to go up. Do you know if House likes this movie? Yeah, everyone in D.C. likes this movie. I think this is a liked D.C. Also, there aren't a lot of, there really weren't a lot of political movies from this stretch, from like late 80s

through mid-90s, we kind of stopped making these. When they made the political stuff, it was more like the Dave type of movie. Yeah. Right? I think In the Line of Fire and Pelican Brief is when it comes back. In the Line of Fire, and then we had The Resurgence, and then we end up in the 2000s with The Contender and movies like that where the West Wing has now informed this whole new view of what DC is. Totally. That's a great call. It shifts to there. To go back to your question, though, and Sean's point about

you know, the melodrama versus drama part. I do think that there is like a quintessentially 80s eroticism to this movie that like the 70s movies kind of lacked. Is that what we're calling it? These guys being... These people are fucking. That's what this movie is. Drunk on strange, you know? Yeah. Basically, as much as they are power and money. And it's kind of amazing to watch like Costner spends most of this movie wearing his navy whites.

and sullying that uniform, you know, like there's like, there's some good imagery in that regard. It was also when you could be horny in Washington without it really getting out and becoming a national scandal yet. Cause Gary Hart happens in 87 and then the, the, the shift happens. Right. What month was that? When that story broke? It was probably, it was the same year. Same year.

And all of a sudden, this kind of underground DC horniness, like him just setting up his mistress across state lines in Virginia. You know what? I was just thinking about this the other day. I was going to save this for later, but like, you don't hear a lot about mistresses anymore. Like mistresses. Like this guy's got a second. Gumars? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. What's up with that? You know, because I feel like everybody's like, I'm Polly, you know, like I'm just in like an open relationship or something or we're seeing other people. But back in the day, Bryce had his wife with him at the party and Susan at the in the other part of the room.

It was a great time. It was a great time for Hollywood. Because you could just have these scenes where it's like, oh yeah, of course he has a mistress. And there's his dutiful wife. You can never do that anymore. Is the take that we need to bring back mistresses in civilized society? I think at least for storytelling, yeah. I think that the pressure and the like...

You only come to me on Saturday night. When are you going to stay for Sunday morning? You know, like that kind of immediately go into Goodfellas voice. My number four thing on what's aged the best setting up a mistress in her own Virginia townhouse.

So CR and airline. That's aged the best? Yeah. Okay, all right. That's a good movie premise. Yeah, it is. But it's not something that would happen now. No, I don't think so. Maybe it would. Maybe they're just better. I might have a Gumar over at LA Live in a condo. I mean, look, you guys don't know. You don't know what I'm up to. At LA Live? Is that where you power water? Yeah.

J.W. Marriott. Yeah. We set you up there for a year. You have the tunnel to Staples so you can go watch Bronny? Yeah.

stop by for a quickie and then go watch Ronnie go over for I have a place in the giant building with all the graffiti on it I got a little townhouse in there that's where I put my gumars the revival of the gumars incredible I can't believe this happened here you guys saved America the gumars are back young Costner rips off untouchables no way out in Bull Durham in 10 months

And this comes out right after untouchables. And I went through, you knew I was going to go through the premier magazines. Cause premier magazine launches August 90, 1987 with untouchables. And there's a piece about cost her. And it's like, yeah, I've also got this movie coming up. No way out. It's really good. And bull Durham's out spring the next year. This is kind of like sandwiched in between and forgotten about a plus Lister.

But when Untouchables comes out, it's like, who's that guy? Who's Louis? No, he was in Fandango and he was in American Flyers. Like he wasn't really anybody. Really unusual. I don't even know if this could happen anymore where somebody could go from

Nobody to headlining three movies in a row in ten months and then just becoming one of the eight biggest stars we had. It's kind of happening to Austin Butler. It's kind of happening to him. He was nothing. He was in What's the Spontum Time in Hollywood. He was in What's the Spontum Time in Hollywood for ten minutes. Elvis came out two and a half years ago. Yeah.

But that led directly to Bike Riders, Dune 2. Masters of the Air. And Masters of the Air. And in a very short period of time, he was in like a Spielberg TV show, the biggest sci-fi franchise, and a cool motorcycle movie. So it kind of happens. And now is probably going to be in heat too. Right. But you're right that

I mean, we talked... I've talked about this a lot. We talked a lot of costume, too. Yeah, and obviously he's had the horizon, so he's been on the trail and everything, but his 86 through 93 is insane. It's insane. There's no... I don't know if you can make a comparison to anybody in movie history. He also... The only person I would put with him is Russell Crowe, where you can... Somebody who could be the lead in an action movie, be the lead in a sports movie, but also...

be in a movie like Proof of Life or this movie where it's like

Oh, yeah. This girl's going to risk everything to be with this dude. I think Costner wins in terms of romance and female audience. No question. 10 out of 10 times. All women that I know love Kevin Costner. Do you think that they love him? When he came to the Grandland party, we've talked about it before, it stopped the party. Everybody was ready to go home with him that day. Yeah. You too. Absolutely. He looked good. He's still a handsome guy. Great guy. He just figured out some sort of

He's not really in that. He wasn't ever really in the Hank's corner. Cruz was over here. Like you go through all the guys from that era and he just kind of had his own lane. Like, I don't know who else could have been in bull Durham in this movie.

Yeah, we did a Hall of Fame about him on Big Picture, and I was trying to figure out who were the historical comps. It's hard to land on somebody. It's like a little bit of Henry Fonda, a little bit of Burt Lancaster, a little bit of Jimmy Stewart or Spencer Tracy. Robert Redford. Yeah, Robert Redford. He kind of takes pieces from all those people. I wish he had made more of these. I think he made complicated films later, but this and A Perfect World...

are two of the most interesting things he's done because he's fucking with a nascent and then really established identity as this all-American hero guy. Well, but he has this, like...

This was his fatal flaw. This fucking outdoors putting on a cowboy hat thing. He just wanted to do that over. He was in Yellowstone for six years. Well, it was his fatal flaw this year with Horizon. If Horizon Part 3 was in fact No Way Out Part 2, would you crowdfund it? I just... That would be great. I just think he maybe did two less of those giant sprawling movies and like three more of the Cruise playbook of like...

Now, maybe back then, though, there wasn't like the Jason Bourne type part that probably he would have done if it was 10 years later, right? I think that you have to look at him through the prism of how directors see him versus how he sees himself. When he's directing a movie or when one of like his guys, like Kevin Reynolds is directing the movie. Yeah. He's like very stoic and like an American hero. But if Oliver Stone or Tony Scott or Roger Donaldson on this movie or, um,

De Palma. Brian De Palma. They all see him as more wily, funnier. Ron Shelton more than anybody. He's always sexier. He's always funnier. He's always a little weirder in those movies because he has a very odd charm. But when he's directing the movie, he's like, I am the American statue. Who is also Jesus. I gotta say, I don't like American statue Kevin Costner. It's not as fun. I think he has a really, really special and unique ability to click with actresses.

Totally. And God only knows like what goes into the clicking, but he's one of those actors that you always feel like, Oh, they're definitely, they started fucking in day four of the filming, even though you have no idea. You're just like, wow. And if you think about the actress that he's done movies with,

and all the other stuff they've done, they're always at their best with him. So I don't know what it is about him. I will say that the relationship he has with Sean Young in this movie, it feels like you're watching a real couple. Totally. When she sits next to him and just starts mimicking him, I'm like, this is fucking, she probably improvised that on the spot.

Is it time to talk about Sean Young? Sure. We've talked a lot about Kostner on the pod. Kostner's probably moving up the rankings for most rewatchables. I was just going to say, I think he's gotten four this year. Robin Hood. If you include Big Chill. And For the Love of the Game. Do we include Big Chill? Well, I mean, he did come up in that discussion. But we haven't even done Bull Durham or Tink Cup yet. Right. But you did Untouchables. A couple left. We're doing No Way Out. You did Field of Dreams, right? Did Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves. Did JFK. You should say that. Uh-huh.

Yeah, that's a lot. You know what we haven't done yet? Let's go American Flyers. I could see you doing 13 Days. Same director. Donaldson. Same director. 13 Days is good. I like it. Yeah, I like that movie. I have some thoughts on Costner's accent. And if there was another flaw with Costner, it was accents were... In 13 Days or in this?

In 13 days. Accents were not his friend, as we talked about on the Rob. His American accent as a Russian agent is excellent in No Way Out. It's pretty good. Perfect World and Teen Cup are definitely rewatchables. Definitely. Teen Cup's, I mean, that's been on the list. Field of Dreams was one of the ones we're saving. Although maybe we're just going to burn through all these now. Bull Durham. Bull Durham. Sean Young. I have a hottest take that I'll save for her for later. Her 80s look like this.

She's in Stripes. Her and PJ Soles with Bill Murray and Harold Ramis. Just love those two together. It's like, do these people, I'm like 11. I'm like, do these people exist in real life? When do I get to meet them? She was 21 in Stripes. Blade Runner. Young Doctors in Love. Only available on YouTube. I watched 20 minutes and it was as bad as I remembered. Her and Michael McKeon. Dune. Wall Street. She plays the Zendaya role in Dune. Yeah. Wall Street.

We talked about that in the Wall Street Pod. Daughter? No, Michael Douglas' wife. Wife. Chopped out of a lot of that movie. Right, right. A problem on the set, as the kids say. No way out. The wheels kind of come off after that. Kiss Before Dying. She gets fired from Dick Tracy. That's a Warren Beatty thing that, let's say there's two sides. A little dicey.

She got bounced from Batman in 89, which we talked about on the Batman rewatchables because she got hurt falling off a horse. And that really started the, uh, the tough stretch. She feuded with Harvey Weinstein, which, um, in retrospect history on her side back in the time that a guy to feud with. And he was fucking asshole to her, which, uh, add her to that list. And then really wanted to get cat woman when they were doing talking about, uh, Michelle Pfeiffer. Yeah.

lobbied for it, wore a homemade suit for Tim Burton, legendary, legendary Hollywood story. He was like, that's weird. They didn't get the part. Then wore that suit on Joan Rivers. Everyone's like this woman's batshit crazy because at the same time, James Woods, not, I wouldn't say a stable presence in Hollywood the last 40 years, he's suing her for harassment for some sort of something they have on a movie set. And then that's it.

And she ends up in Ace Ventura like two years later, but for the most part kind of missed the window. It's kind of made like three or four B movies or red box movies a year ever since. I'll do the hot take now. I feel like she was a one-on-one. I don't know who she reminds me of. There's nobody like her in a movie.

She's an amazing screen presence. She's like a femme fatale. Like a force of nature. Yeah, she's like doing Barbara Sandwick. You know, she's like, I'm really sexy and I'm the smartest person in the room and I'm in control. And a little like daffy.

You know, that's what I was going to say is in this she has like a tractor beam where you're like, whoa, like this is real. Throw your life away. Hall of Fame. Yeah. And this character is just like the kind of person. We talked about the throw your life away. Hall of Fame. It's a good one. It starts with Edie Falco and Copland. That's been number one with a bullet for you since 1997. Dana Wheeler Nicholson. Number two. Dana Wheeler Nicholson. In Fletch.

Oh my god. That's so good. Yeah, she locks eyes on you and it's like, that's it. Here's my attainment card. It's a lot of like, morning after what happened last night, Sean Young said something to a biker at the bar and you wound up having to fight him. Right, and you got knocked out. Yeah. She's a great actor. She seems a little loopy, but she also got sucked into the machine of like...

She got into a fight with Harvey Weinstein. What do you think that was over? Yeah, right. She hadn't, she had, there's some bad luck stuff in there. She got treated the way a lot of actresses get treated. She ended up on celebrity rehab in the 2000s and it got pretty dark. But there's a moment there where, you know, Sharon Stone was, had a lot of the same stuff, but was able to harness it of just that, the tractor beam where you just like, they come into a movie and you're just like, what's going on? Who's that? What's going on with her? Um,

And you feel like with somebody like that, the character in the movie or TV show is going to throw their lives away within five seconds, which is what happens. She's outstanding in this movie. You get why these two guys are going nuts over her.

I don't know how many other people could have played the part. Well, that's the thing. It's like you don't know until it's... I do think Sharon Stone could have done it. Yeah, but you don't know until you're doing it where it's like, oh, I could see Hackman and Costner just losing their minds over this person. Yeah. She has that thing where there's a certain type of woman who's constantly giving her man shit, but they like it. And that's what the character is. So it's a little hard to look at. There's a famous casting what-if for that part. Mm-hmm.

that, you know, I won't step on, but that I totally... I can't totally see that actress doing the thing that she's doing in this, where she's really kind of giving everybody the business all the time. Yeah, I mean, in some ways, maybe we see this sometimes when we do these movie stretches, where sometimes it's just a five- to seven-year run, and then you get replaced by somebody else. But I felt like that was more there. I was always...

Even when she was making bad movies in the early 90s, I always watched the movie. I saw A Kiss Before Dying whenever it showed up on cable. I was like, oh, maybe this is the one. It just never happened. She's great in Ace Ventura. It's a ridiculous character and it hasn't aged well or whatever, but it's incredibly memorable. Well, somebody else is memorable. Horny Hackman. Horny Hacks. Yeah. Unforgettable. 94 years young. Still going. Yeah.

This one can do things for me like no one else I've ever met. It's the only thing worth living for. Get your horns on, Gene. The Firm, No Way Out, Night Moves, Absolute Power, and Heartbreakers.

We get horny Hackman. Yeah. Yeah. And then you see him in movies like Cougars and he's like the least sexual person alive. So the question is, because you've introduced the paradigm of horny Hackman. Now I have to go back and watch like Cougars and be like, is there a horn in this Hackman? You can see it a little bit when Barbara Hershey kind of makes a move on him and the cornfields and then just stops being a bitch from that point on in the movie. It's like, gosh, you got a little taste of horny Hackman. She's back.

Was he Horny Hackman underneath all along or just a really good actor? Even in Superman, you're like, this Lex Luthor nailed down Valerie Perrine. You know what I mean? He's got the juice. This weird, balding, average-looking guy

Who just happens to be like the second or third best actor ever. He looks like a security guard in Long Island. Yeah, and he's like basically a sourpuss in every movie he's ever made. And yet all men are like, you know what actor I love is Gene Hackman. And in many movies, he's like, I fucked the hottest woman in this movie. And all the other actors in the world are just like, I just want to be Gene Hackman. Pretty crazy.

I was researching horny Hackman and there was a Cloris Leishman story. Really? That co-stars in young Frankenstein. It was about, uh, hold on. I got to find this now. This is some breaking rewatchables protocol.

Googling something Huge fan of Leachman In Last Picture Show She's in your Throw Your Life Away Hall of Fame Right? It's true The headline is Cloris Leachman's new book Details one night stand With Gene Hackman Hell yeah Good for you guys Hope they had fun Cloris My autobiography She recalls Bumping into Gene Hackman When both were Shooting movies In San Francisco In the 1970s And dining with him At their hotel Oh how nice Hold your horses

As we moved into the main course, it was as if a cosmic wind enveloped us. Some giant space magnet was pulling us together. We didn't finish the meal. We went upstairs, flew into bed and made love. It was epic. And the next morning, Gene went back to his film and I went back to mine. I haven't seen Gene since that night, but I remember well the feisty lad he was.

Is it now the time to announce that the reason why you're not doing the Bill Simmons podcast is because you're doing the audio book for Cloris? I'm doing the audio book for Feisty Lad, the Horny Gene Hackman story. Sean doesn't know what to do. The Cosmic Wind. Did you think a cosmic wind? That's what she wrote? You think Bill did not make that up? A cosmic wind. As we moved into the main course.

It was as if a cosmic wind enveloped us. You know, it was like lobster thorn or something. They didn't finish the meal. It's just like Gene had a Cornish game hench. Beef medallions everywhere. Strewed across the table. Leachman's prime rib. Untouched. Jesus. A one-nighter. Anyway, I think the answer is maybe underneath the horns where I was there. I mean, God bless him.

Shout out to him. Still alive, by the way. Probably still banging it out. He's a man. Just watching Jags games, right? Well, he also... He's probably on Raya. I texted you guys this, but like... Did you just say he's probably on Raya? I think he's married. He's been captured by a paparazzi. Every time there's an image of him going to the gas station or whatever in New Mexico, people are like, leave him alone! Let him live out his 90s in peace!

But he's got a lady with him at all times. Love that guy. His career is amazing. Amazing just stopped working. Yes, that's what I was going to say. 20 movies in the 70s, 20 movies in the 80s, 20 movies in the 90s, made like five movies in the 2000s. And he was like, you know what, fuck this. And he just bailed. I was looking at his IMDb and I don't think anyone has a wider range of, wow, that movie was amazing. Oh, I like that movie.

What the fuck was that movie? I didn't even know what title. What is that title? He's a Tubi all-star as well. He's got a ton of movies on Tubi. He, in this year, 1987, I think he made five movies. And he cranked out, you said it was 20 a year or 20 a decade. I think in the 80s, he might have made more than that. Just in 80, he does Hoosiers and Power in 86. I know you're a big Power guy, Sean. Lumet?

Superman for no way out in 87. And then he's in split decisions, bat 21 full moon in a blue water and another woman and Mississippi burning in 1988. He makes five movies. I don't know what four of those movies are.

Another Woman's a Woody Allen movie, but also the Bat 21. I mean, he played like a colonel or sergeant or the secretary of defense. I mean, he played a military guy in like 35 movies. I'm ashamed to admit I zoomed through split decisions.

It's a boxing movie. Craig Sheffer. Haven't seen this. Craig Sheffer. Craig Sheffer. And Jeff Fahey. And Jennifer Beals. Jeff Fahey gets involved with the mob. He's a boxer. He still has a couple of late, later period ones that we haven't done that I'm really, I'm scouting. Like, I mean, I think Behind Enemy Lines and Heist are the two that I like. Well, what about the Andrew Davis one?

The Package. That one's good. I like The Package. That's a really good movie. We did the Hoosiers rewatchables, which is now up on YouTube three years late because we found the video. Part of the research was about

How he just like showed up on the set on Hoosiers and like, all right, let's bang this out. Like, didn't think it was going to be a good movie. It was just like, put the cue cards over there. The replacements is like the best version of that where jeans just clearly like he's mailing. Yeah. I'm not doing that. And they're like, how about $450,000? Right. Fine. But I remember when I wrote it, I want to do that movie in the real hospitals at some point when I wrote about that, I was, I, one of the jokes I had for page two is about how,

He was yelling at the cue card guy. You got to write that bigger. I can't see it from where I am. Cause he's just like one scene and that you could just see it. He's like, what the fuck is this movie? I mean, you and Andy did Royal Tenenbaums and the story is kind of Legion at this point that I was right at the end of his career and Wes Anderson really wanted him, but that he was, they did not get along, you know, and that he was really ornery. You know who he loved Eastwood.

Yeah, one taken out. Eastwood's like, we'll be out by 4.30. We might be able to play nine. Gene's like, that's fine. I got a Gumar over at the Intercontinental. I'll get you home in time for Jag Saints. You can watch Breeze and Burnell duel. You know what he's really funny in is Get Shorty. He's really, really good in Get Shorty.

He's just an amazing actor that I don't know. He's another like one-on-one. I don't know who Hackman is now in 2024. I just don't feel like the person exists. Yeah. He's not, we have to wait for a bunch of younger guys to get older or something. He was also the same age for 22 years. Yeah. You watch him in French connection.

He seems a tiny bit younger, but by the time we get to the late 70s, he's just the same age all the way through to the replacement. It's just, does he have a mustache or not? Yeah. I watched Class Action recently. I'd never seen that before. It's him and Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio, and they're both lawyers. He's her father. Oh, yeah. I was like, this is a two-and-a-half-star movie, but you know what a two-and-a-half-star movie is like the best movie of all time? You know, I was just like, I'm just locked in for an hour and 43 minutes. It's how I feel about Behind Enemy Lines. It's like the dumbest movie I've ever seen, and it rules. Yeah.

All right, so this movie was based on the 1946 novel The Big Clock by Kenneth Fearing. It was filmed as The Big Clock, 1948. Police Python 357, 1976. Not aware of what that was. That was the other remake. Police Python, eh? Yeah. Written by Robert Garland, directed by Roger Donaldson. New Zealand guy or Australian guy? One of those two. Born in Australia, moved to New Zealand. You know what he directed. Well, it's a pretty interesting IMDb. I'll tell you this much. No Way Out.

cocktail the next year, the getaway, Species.

A movie that I would do on the rewatchables tomorrow, but I don't think anyone else likes it. I like species. You don't like species? Four like fun, kind of horny movies. He was the master of the lurid thriller. Yeah. And then ends up doing 13 Days Later, but maybe he found a soulmate with Horny Hackman. Yeah, he was like sub-Adrian Lyne. He was more interested in the story than he was the sex, but he always had sex in his movies. And Dante's Peak he did too, which was a big movie, the volcano movie. It's funny to go from No Way Out to Cocktail.

It's like, Roger, what's next? Got this thing with Cruz sitting in Jamaica. It would have been great, though, to know you in 87 and No Way Out and Cocktails directed by the same guy and you're treating him like Kubrick. You're like, what could Donaldson do next? Treating him? Was I wrong? These Full Metal Jacket guys can get out of here. But that's what's so crazy about this movie and all movies like this when we talk about these 80s movies. This movie was shot by John Alcott, who was a Stanley Kubrick cinematographer who shot

all of the Kubrick classics in the 60s and 70s. There were just less movies back then. I feel like there were less jobs, less movies, and you're more likely to get some awesome cinematographer. They're just like banging them out. But this movie looks good. You know, that's the thing. It's like it looks great. That opening credit sequence you just described where it's like a helicopter shot all across D.C.,

That's beautiful shit, man. That makes you excited about the movie. $15 million budget made $35.5 million and then became just a fucking staple. Constant HBO show. A staple on cable. Roger Ebert, four stars. We've done... Four. Four.

He was like, one, two, three, four stars. The 25th or 30th movie we've done this year. And Raj has been in a real two, two and a half. Yeah. We've been speculating. How much did Raj like? Spent a half star short a couple times. Yeah. Like a lot of like second guessing Raj. And then here he's like, this is as good as it gets. I watched the Siskel and Ebert episode where this movie was featured. What did Siskel think? So Raj.

It's four movies in a row that he liked. By the way, I like that I was like, let's do an easy one this week. I don't want to overload Sean because we decided two days ago. It's like something that I do a lot of research on. He's like, I watched Siskel and Ebert. I listened to the director's commentary. I did. Well, I really like this movie. Yeah. But so Ebert is like,

we haven't had an episode like this in months where we've just got four great movies, Gene. Let me tell you about No Way Out. And he starts describing it. Then they cut to Gene and Gene's like, well, Roger, this movie stinks. No! Oh my God. He's like, didn't buy the characters. Performances are bad. Like he's just super down on it. Jesus. It's tough. Fucking Siskel.

Uh, Raj says it's a terrifying jigsaw puzzle. He found himself really caring about the characters. Yeah. He said the plot gives us a great deal of info. The more we know, the less we understand. Horny Raj. Then he said, that's the test of a good thriller. When you stop thinking about the mechanics of the plot and start caring about the people. That's your point. Siskel's like, fuck that. I'm, I'm when the Ebert and Siskel, when they battled. You're Ebert.

I feel like probably more. I saw the Siskel side on stuff sometimes, though. I would say the seesaw is probably tilted a little toward Raj. Siskel was unafraid to go against the grain. Like, he didn't mind being quote-unquote wrong. But Ebert was right more than Siskel was.

In my opinion. I love that Cisco bought the Saturday Night Fever suit because he liked the movie so much and he was like, I'm getting this thing. It was like $800. Now it's probably like $100,000. That's like CR with all of Edie Falco's cigarette butts from Copland. He's just got a whole drawer full of them. Just building an Edie Falco doll out of Newports. Today's the most rewatchable scene is brought to you by Paramount+. A mountain of movies awaits.

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on Paramount Plus. Okay, rewatchable scenes. I love the big opening DC presidential party scene. I love party scenes in general, as you guys know. It's a great way to introduce us to all the characters in a natural way. Tom and Susan's flirting. Will Patton, who we haven't mentioned yet as Scott, is just dialing. He's like, guys, buckle the fuck up. I'm going to be dialing it up. Put your seatbelts on, everybody.

It's honestly electrifying when someone who is not famous at all is in a movie with two hugely famous stars and is like, everybody move away. Like, this is my time. I'm going to stand so close to you and yell in your face about power. Yeah, we could do this now. It's the Tom Sizemore for me.

The action is the juice. The Bryce is the juice for Scott. Best toe-to-toe non-star with the stars. Unbelievable. He's just like, I'm going to chew up all the scenery, guys. I know you guys are famous. I kind of wonder how they decided...

you know, how much of it was Will Patton, how much of it was in the script and Donaldson or whatever. He's always walking so close to Tom. Oh, he's like every time Tom tries to leave the room, he's like, I'm coming with you. Every time he's trying to make any headway in the investigation, he's like, don't worry about that. You go over here. It's like,

The cumulative experience of watching that performance, by the end, you're just like, oh my God, this guy is spinning me out. It really helps mount the tension. It's like Josh McDaniels next to Belichick for years and years, just in his personal space. Exactly. Call and plays. Definitely. Yeah. We have Tom ordering the Stoli straight up.

Little tip. Yeah. Little tiny tip. We have Sean Young smoking a 10-inch cigarette. What brand was that, CR? Virginia Slim or something? God damn, that was a long cigarette. What do you think the filmmakers were trying to tell us with that? I don't think they were trying anything. It was an allusion to the ancient mariner coming home. He's like, can you light the cigarette? Don't do that. Um...

We get them going to the limo and she just says to the driver, show us the monument. Costas in the backseat going, Oh yeah, this is going to be a great ride. And then I heard the monument for sure. Hey Bill, shut the divider window. I have some thoughts on the sex scene that we'll get to in a later category. Next one. It's short, but I love dropping by Iman's house. I love that Iman's in this movie. Yeah.

It better be good. We need your bed. Nina, Tom, Tom, Nina, there's a limousine downstairs, okay? There's booze in my pantry. The refrigerator's full of food. Susan, why don't you go to your own place? Because it's just one of those things, okay? Be a friend, all right? If anybody calls, then just tell them that I died or that I'm going, I'm asleep, all right?

Just the heat check of showing up at your friend's house and being like, I've got a limit outside. Take this fur coat and the limo outside. And now I'm naked in your hallway. Take my fur coat. Yeah, if there was any ambiguity, we're definitely fucking in your bed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't worry, I'll change the sheets later. She doesn't even say that. What a great friend. Next one I have is the flirting while getting ready for the second party.

right into the second party. Oh, so you're skipping Manila. Which one? Manila Costner. When he does this, he saves the guy on the ship. You want to leave Manila Costner? I had some thoughts on it in a different category. When they're listening to Wild Thing and he tears the phone off the wall? Yeah, what's going on in that scene? That's fucking awesome. You like that one? Yeah. That's just for CR. We're just in a different movie for 10 minutes. And it's one month later, Full Metal Jacket comes out

and there's like the same sequence where it's like army guys go overseas and they go to a strip club in Asia and I don't know

I don't know. I guess that's something that America wanted to see at that time. It must have come up at like a WGA meeting. We know what we need. We get more Filipino strip clubs in this movie. The funniest thing is it's exactly the same movie if you just take that 10 minutes out. Literally nothing changes. It doesn't advance the story in any way. First of all, the vanilla stuff does have later on pays off with the like, why did he get the bag stolen seemingly on purpose thing.

Oh, you think that's why? No, because they said to him, he was like, when you tried to do the pass off and there was nothing in the bag, like we were disappointed in you. Oh. Yeah. Man. I don't know how this is. Maybe you were a little distracted by some of the other sites of Manila. Maybe. I was watching the spy craft. That's why this is a fun rewatch. After you've seen the movie once, you got to rewatch it. I'm so stupid.

The murder. That's why that scene is in the movie. That makes sense now. I know, let the kid take the bag. I felt like they were trying to tell us that, but yeah, I should have put that together. The murder I have for the next one. You've been out of town. I pay the rent! I'm sure it's of no importance to you whom you sleep with, but it's of considerable importance to me.

Is he sufficiently horny in this movie? No, it's a shame because I... Well, we have one where they're lying in bed and he's kind of sizing her up like a porterhouse. Yeah.

You get it. You get the feeling. Yeah. Like an untouched porterhouse on Cloris Leachman's plane? Like Joe House at Luger's. The cosmic wind. The cosmic wind. The cosmic wind started blowing and that scene was Sean Young in the bed. It's a great 80s murder scene. It's a what stage is the best and what stage is the worst where it's like the...

not great hit slow motion, slow mo. And then the special effects of going backwards. It's like she's falling 40 feet, but it's really eight. And then somehow breaks her neck going through the coffee table. It immediately does.

It's the most 80s part of the movie, but I'm kind of here for it. It's very De Palma. Yeah. And his reaction's really funny. He's like, that was not ideal. You know, like he's upset, but not really. But his first impulse is to be... It shows up at Scott's house. Hey, I think I killed Susan. But he's like, I just wanted to chat and talk it out before I call the cops. Yeah. I think I killed her. Scott, man, immediately has the game plan. Let's say you accidentally kill your Gumar.

we've talked about this what was your first call um cr is cr is that my safe house at the jw barrier to know i love is it bill see i but you i'm absolutely happy to be your first call it's probably andy though uh i think actually andy would be like you could get me go to a pay phone no you i think you could get me out of the country you know what i mean yeah i feel like i could too yeah because bill can pull some strings yeah yeah dude what do you think your reaction would be

Right to prison. Call the police. Sean would be like, I'm reporting you now. You should turn yourself in. Do the right thing and also give me the watch. I don't know what's going to happen to the watch, but you got to turn yourself in, you know? Next scene, Tom finds out Susan is dead, which is just a great Costner performance. I got to say, like he's reading the thing and he does kind of a

And then all of a sudden, he's like, can I go to the bathroom? Because in the first time around, you're like, oh, he's just really upset because he loved Susan. But the second time around, you're like, Yuri, the walls are closing in on Yuri. So the reason he's having the panic attack is because now all of a sudden, there's this, he's implicated. Can I ask you one quick question? It's like, I don't know, it's not quite an unanswerable question, but when Bryce goes in to see her after Farrell leaves and then Farrell stands in the shadows outside the apartment, is there any chance Bryce...

Guess what's happening there? Like, is there any chance? Oh, definitely. Because he says, he says later, like, I was angry. But he doesn't, he never thinks it's Farrell. No, he says to Scott, he's like, I couldn't see it was dark. And he's like, did he see you? And he's like, I don't, I don't know, basically. Okay. It's actually Costner's, it's a nitpick, but it's a mistake by Tom to just kind of stare him down. Like, what's the upside of that? I think it's just like, that's the shit you learn on the streets of Manila, man. Yeah. It's just,

Wolfpack stuff. Wolfpack slash Kumar stuff. Anyway, that's funny. That seems good. I like when they go to tell Amman that Susan's dead. That seems incredible. And he's just locking in with that face like, please don't fucking say anything to this guy. Costner's so good. You and I are homies. But then they have that part near the end where he's got the vase and he's just kind of like...

Ready to hit the guy over the head and just, I guess, kill him in the man's apartment. I don't know what he has to kill him and then, and then boogie out. Yeah. We get the Washington DC car chase running chase. Costner dude, basically all of his own stunts. Pretty good. Uh, much later we get cost on running from the two henchmen and in the Bryce's office at the end, his stairwell fight off a showdown. We get Scott going, you have no idea what power can do.

You have no idea what men of power can do. Fuck. Wait. Wait. I'm saying fuck. Scott, that's been a loyal and valuable friend. I let that friendship cloud my judgment. It's just truly amazing. This scene is amazing. No, Scott, don't do it. Just help me out of this. You can have anything you want. If you go against me on this, it'll be your word against mine, and I'll win. David! Stop. Stop.

Yeah. Crossed with a, Neil! My son! Yeah, that whole scene's awesome. Then we get the twist ending. I told you when I called that I could not get out of the Pentagon. All right. But at least you'll admit your relationship with the woman was poorly ended. I did what I was told. You wanted me to be her lover. I was her lover. I don't see any point in going on with this. Yeah, well, neither do I. We thought we'd never see each other again. I thought so, too.

What do you got for most rewatchable? I love you have no idea what Men of Power can do. That seems awesome. That seems to be bad and it's the opposite. And Hackman is so good in it where he's like, Scott, you've been a great friend. Yeah. You know?

David! But then Bryce immediately has the new cover story of what Scott has been... And he's convincing Tom of here's why we have to do it and then the cutaway back to Will Patton and he picks up the gun when it's in the foreground. He's gonna shoot them. That whole scene is so awesome. I like that part too.

I think that's my favorite. I think the last 20 minutes of this movie is my most rewatchable. I had a last 20 minutes of like just the Pentagon spy hunt and leading up to the reveal is just my favorite. We all agree. Today's most rewatchable scene was brought to you by Paramount+. Blockbusters, fan favorites, everything. Find something new to watch every week. A mountain of movies awaits on Paramount+. Godfather, all of them are on there, right? Yeah. Paramount Classics. I don't know if you've seen that movie. And all the Raiders?

When are we re-fathering? Plan start at $5.99 a month. Start streaming right now. Oh, semi-new category. What's the most 1987 thing about this movie? I'll give you the options. Polaroids as a major plot device. Credit card record results taking days to come back. No surveillance video whatsoever on the streets as opposed to presumed innocent where everything is being filmed at all times in a TV show.

Checking the phone records taking hours on end. The printers or the early pre-OJ DNA stuff. We got this thing with blood. Yeah. You can kind of check out the semen. I think the credit cards. Can I add just Russian agents? You could. And also, this is also age the best for me, but all of Kevin Costner's outfits. Yeah. But I would probably say the credit cards because it's like, I remember they would do the

the what's the magnet that would run over it you know did you think about dressing in the whites for the podcast or no you'd look good should try it new category before we get to what stage the best

The Sean Young Award for Best Gratuitous Quickie Nude Scene goes to Sean Young for just taking off her mink. I wish it was Hackman. Yeah. I'm not positive it was scripted because Costner kind of seems stunned by it and unclear of even how to interact. I mean, she's told that story. There's that great bit of research where she's like, I am very comfortable taking my clothes off on film, but Kevin Costner was not comfortable with me taking my clothes off on film. Seems like she uses it against him and really unnerves him. Let's age the best.

Movies that start with an intense scene and then give you the six months earlier graphic. I mean, we don't have enough of those I see I feel like it's overused now you really I do I know what the TV has killed it TV and a lot of movies don't do it as much but TV shows now always are like in the present day White Lotus always does that yeah, yeah, and now it's like it's such a convention that's relied on this one is good though because I think I

Because of what I was saying before where you almost forget that that moment happens when you're watching the movie You forget that the interrogation is going down until we finally get to this coda What do you have for what stage the best? Uh the twist in the twist that it was the landlord is his uh Is the guy who's running him like when the door opens and the guy who has the unfinished painting of the new england farm Uh winds up being like the spy master awesome callback

Uh, I love the develop slow developing picture as just like the countdown clock for the movie. Uh, I thought that was really cool. And, um, yeah, I think Costner and Young's chemistry is like off the charts. Do you think the Sixers should do that with Embiid next season? Just like a slow counting photograph that's becoming clear of a center that's actually in shape. An MRI is decaying knee. Yeah.

God damn it. It's like fifth straight podcast. We're like having a really good time and chatting. I'm 51 away from the Basia. I'm really more concerned about Paul George's late thirties for you. Let's keep, we can keep moving. Yeah. What do you have for what stage the best anything? Um,

Yeah, the idea of the executive branch and Congress being in a dick measuring contest and fucking up everybody's lives. I feel like that is holding strong. So you're saying that's still happening? Yeah, that is holding strong in our culture. Oh, Fred Dalton Thompson ever playing anybody attached to the military industrial complex this October or whatever. Yeah. Brad Pitt is an uncredited party guest. That's a freeze frame, that. Yeah.

I wrote down great evil eighties, Washington DC score with the synthesizers and the do, do, do, do, do, do, do, uh, Maurice jar. I'm just going to give you a man's three most famous relationships.

One important one, yeah. She dated Warren Beatty in 1977 during the disco era. And you can just Google pictures of them coming in or out of discos, both at their fucking peaks. Yeah. He's a goat. Warren's a goat. She dated and married Spencer Haywood and was married to him during the whole 1980s. I didn't know that. I want to hire a mafia person and kill Paul Westhead because I'm so coked out. I don't know where I am. He was married to Iman at that point. Married to Iman. They were...

Doing it up. And then ends up marrying David Bowie eventually, who she calls the love of her life. They were together for decades. Handsome couple. Morewood staged the best. Paying extra to rent a boat you're not allowed to rent. I was going to have... I know Ciara's like, how about if I give you $500? Yeah. I love a Chesapeake weekend fuckfest. Yeah. You don't see a lot of those anymore, but it's great. Let's bring it back. Along with Gumar's. Yeah. She'd take the Gumar to Newport Beach. Yeah.

And just like cash out some guy at the boat rental place. Yeah. I did have one more, which is Costner working with guys and then being like, I'm not going to forget about that guy and then putting that guy in future movies because that guy who runs from the boat is in the crew in Tin Cup. Yep. He's worked with Will Patton like a hundred times. And Will Patton is in all of his Westerns. Reynolds, he goes back to, yeah, a bunch of them. So Jason Bernard is in this as he's... Major Donovan. The guy that keeps breaking in in the end. Yes. Love him. It's the judge in... What movie is he the judge in?

He's one of those guys, but like a graduation or a level above that. He's the judge in Liar Liar. Well, my favorite show ever, The White Shadow. He is, Ken Reeves, he's the principal and the pilot and then gets replaced by his brother for the series. Who's his brother? Ed Bernard. Oh, no. Yeah. What happened? I guess Jason didn't realize the show was going to get picked up. Booked another deal. Yeah. Didn't happen. He's in War Games. He's in a bunch of stuff.

What's aged the best? You have to have more moral courage. I love whenever Scott is like, I need you to see things clearly and calm down. So, David, we're all very tired. Scott.

and Tom went to college together. Yeah. And that's how they're buddies. Yeah, college. Yeah. College buddies. The old college buddies subplot. Yeah. I have some ideas about that. Oh. Sean Young's quote on nude scenes in this movie. I find I'm always helping the guys. I ended up helping Kevin Costner. I ended up helping Kevin Costner. Kevin helped me by wanting me so much for the role. So if he gets a little nervous during a love scene, that's okay. I'll help him.

And then last but not least, it's a great scene partner. She's generous, generous acting. I have this as a wood stage, the best and the worst. The two henchmen that chase him a couple of times. Henchman number one, we might have to cut this out as a social video. Yeah.

He's running. He's like Steven Seagal. He's just running. It's like he's never run before. He's like watching you take your kid to the playground when they're three and they're like, it's a playground. That's what he's like sprinting after Coster. Two major action scenes. How do you not fucking have a real sprinter? I think also the problem is that they're introduced as essentially Delta Force assassins, but they look like guys who are at a barbecue before a...

It's like the other two guys they hired called in sick or they had to fire them. But it's like Marshall Bell who's in Total Recall and stuff. He's like a great character actor. But he doesn't look like he overthrew a Latin American government. Great shot. Go to our word. Most cinematic shot. Would you go opening scene?

I have Kostner running down the checkerboard floor hallway of the Pentagon being chased. It's a really cool shot. But John Alcott, man. Direct focus is pretty cool when it goes from Hackman to Kostner when he's waiting outside at night. That's awesome. I like a lot of the party photography too where it's like cutting between. We see...

her we see Bryce we see Tom and then they're like triangulating and then when they leave together but there's a cutaway to Hackman and he's like looking and he can't find her and you're like panic is setting right it's good Denethy's Benihana where it seems to be in location the opening DC I also like the Chesapeake Bay fuck fest

Kid Cudi Pursuit of Happiness Award Best Noodle Drop. There's an unbelievable Rod Stewart cover at the first party. They played Do You Think I'm Sexy? It's like the cheesiest 80s guy possible. I think, though, if you've got a song that's got the name of the movie and the song that plays in the movie, it's got to be No Way Out by Paul Ingram. It's such a bad song. Big Kahuna Burger Award Best Use of Food and Drinks. Spilling the Coffee in the Pants is pretty good. Definitely. Or ordering the Stoli Straight. Oh, yeah, that's good, too. Butch's Girlfriend Award Weak Link of the Film.

I have one, but do you have one for this? Honestly, it's the assassins for me. Okay. Because like Scott Pritchard would have fucking hitters. Yeah. Like he wouldn't be like, I found these two guys at a Lowe's. You know, like it's... Yeah, that should have been like Howie Long and Lawrence Taylor chasing down Coster. Gastineau. Gastineau. Gastineau would have been great. I don't think anybody in the cast is a weak link. I have Scott shooting the wheelchair guy.

as my weak link of the movie. I just don't think he's doing that. You're just going to shoot him in a gym, there's a gunshot, we're in the Pentagon, like, what's going on there? Well, I did look this up. There is a gym in the Pentagon. Nobody's hearing the gunshot? It's the fucking Pentagon. Do you think Dr. Sam Hesselman was a problem? Yeah.

Do you think he was just, this is where I like to get my shots up? People forget about his triple-double. Yeah. He was nice with it. There weren't cameras in the gymnasium? I don't know. That scene never sat right for me. I don't think there were cameras anywhere. I mean, Scott is mentally ill. I get it. You know, he's also orchestrating a vast conspiracy to protect the Secretary of Defense. Yeah. Can I give you a better version of a murder of the wheelchair guy? Okay.

Just be like, yeah, I'll wheel you out. And then just shove down the stairway. Like, do it in a way that makes it seem like an accident. He wants to create the Yuri is in the building thing because once he finds out it's Tom, he's like, now I need... But then he keeps the gun on him? Like, I don't know. You have no idea what men of power can do, Bill. Have your henchmen shoot him. What's aged the worst?

Oh, can I just say that the Mallory Rubin Award for Did This Movie Need a Better Sex Scene? It probably would not have been released commercially if it did. It would have been an adult film. The limo scene? Yeah.

It's a steamy scene, but it's weirdly not that gratuitous. Like, it could have gone farther. I haven't in What Stage is the Worst. I think it's a weird sex scene. You don't like the sex scene? The music's super corny. The no way out. I don't know what's going on with the logistics of it. Where it's... Like, at one point, is he...

She's facing the front of the car, but it seems like they're having sex. And it's like, that's definitely not what would happen in a limo. And then it's like, was there oral sex here? I think we should do it. I think we should diagram it. I wish we had a graphic. We need Dr. Jack. I asked Mallory. We need the telestrator. I have some shocking Mallory Rubin news because I actually invited her to be the fourth. It was going to be the rarely seen four-person pod for the rewatchables. I don't think I've ever done a pod with you and Chris and now. And just live.

Just live. We did do the live one. That's right. But I really wanted her take on the limo and, and the shocking revelation. Never saw the movie. That's bizarre. As a, the world professed biggest Costner fan. And it's set in DC and somehow this is a hole, but she could tell you the fucking ninth cousin of, of the dragon show.

That's crazy too because there's a scene in this movie when he introduces the jewelry box that Hackman's character gives her and Coster's walking around and he's in jeans but they're unbuttoned and he's like showing you like the whole trailer. The highway to heaven. Not a lot of wax. What is that choice? But also for Mal. We have to force her to watch it. She would love that. Yeah. I think she would have a lot of thoughts on the limo scene. Phrase it differently but yeah. Oh my god.

Russian spies probably age the worst just because we don't have the quote unquote Russian spy scene. Yes, we do. But not in the way we had them in 80s movies where it's like, oh, he might be the spies in the building. Now it's just like everybody's a spy and there's so many different ways to be a spy. You need to be on a different version of Twitter than I am because they're putting up numbers. I'm saying there's more of them and more ways to spy. Oh, okay.

Back then, it's like, we have to put this person in America and they have to pretend they're American for 20 years and they indoctrinate them. Now it's like they just fucking hack our phones. This is related to my picking nits, too. All right. Would you guys be bummed out if I was a Russian spy? Bummed out? Yeah, like if it turned out like... See, I would think...

it would clear up a lot of questions I've had. I'd be like, I fucking knew it. I knew something was off. I told him to buy an Atwater village and he didn't tell them that, that Hail Mary pizza is great. I agree. What a great shout out for Hail Mary. I fucking love Hail Mary. Hail Mary is great. Atwater village is great. You can be the king of Atwater village. I know where my home is. Yeah. St. Petersburg. Um,

What's aged the worst? What a waste of Joe Don Baker. Why is he in this movie? It's Fred Dalton Thompson. Which guy? You keep saying Joe Don Baker, but it's Fred Dalton Thompson. No, the other guy. It's Fred Dalton Thompson. There's Fred Dalton Thompson and there's another one. No, the other guy's Howard Duff. Oh, that's who I'm thinking of. I screwed it up. I got Howard Duff and Joe Don Baker. A common mistake. Yeah. Yeah. I understand. I completely get it. You guys knew what I meant. Yeah, we did.

But I thought you thought you kept seeing Joe Don Baker. He's in like a scene and a half. Senator Duvall, right? Senator Duvall, yeah. He's in Kramer vs. Kramer. He's amazing in Kramer vs. Kramer. He's John Shaughnessy's lawyer. Isn't he in Cape Fear too?

Joe Don Baker. Joe Don Baker. No, but Howard... No, Howard Duff is not. You sure? Howard Duff's a big TV actor from the 50s and 60s. You sure Howard Duff's not in Cape Fair? I don't think so. Craig, can you look this up? I think he's in it. I think he's one of the lawyers. This new... Craig has to, like, do research while we're... Howard Duff died in 1990. Yeah, he's not in it.

Cape Fear was released in 1991. Joe John Baker is in Cape Fear, though. I think you're just... I'm just getting all the that guy's confused. This is a great bit. Because I love when you're like, that guy is not a that guy. He's like, this guy's name. You know, he's like, no, that's Redhorn. I'm proving that that guy is Redhorn. I'm screwing up multiple guys. Sean Young. This is what's aged the worst. Sean Young said in interviews that Roger Donaldson made her lift her shirt and show him the goods during an audition. Not great. 80s. No.

And then I just wrote down, I still don't know what happened with the whole Tom goes overseas, saves someone on a boat, gets drunk at a Philippines bar and chases a street kid party, even though I liked watching it. It's basically an amazing 10 minute deleted scene that doesn't need to be in the movie. Well, it's important. You could have just done the cutaway to the newspaper article of Bryce reading that he was a hero, but he needed a hero to come in to play that part. Yeah, I get it. So it shows a lot of work. It is a lot of work because the other plan B could have just been, hey, this guy's great. You should hire him. Okay. Yeah.

It's true. As a kind of addendum to that, I do think that the Phantom sub subplot is weirdly super important for something that's kind of complicated and only mentioned briefly earlier in the movie. So if I think if I have this right,

It's a big submarine that America is building that they think is going to be top of the line. Awesome. But super expensive. But Hackman knows that if it gets put in the water, it's going to be easily detectable. Yeah. And so the Russians want the submarine to get built because they'll find it. They'll see it. So it's Tom's job.

to somehow get the submarine in the mix somehow. And that's what he's doing, basically. So it's 10 minutes of work for two ultimately not that important plots. That the Russians want Fred Dalton Thompson and Howard Duff. The thing with movies like this is all we need to do is be like, he's a Russian spy. It's like, oh, whoa, that's really all you need. But at the very end when he sells out Bryce to Marshall, to Fred Dalton Thompson, I think it's because he's trying to take down Bryce. To Howard Duff?

to Joe Don Baker. There's a more of a complexity, though, to the character because over time, he comes to like his time in America. Yeah. And so, like, he's kind of slow playing his duties as a spy because he's like, hey, I met this Sean Young lady and she's pretty cool and we're hanging out and I don't want to... And speaking of which, another thing that's aged the worst is Kevin Costner listing Russian authors. Nothing wrong with that as far as I'm concerned.

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All right, the Ruffalo Hannah Rubinick Partridge Overacting Award. They knew and they let it happen. Don't you call me lady. I come in here. I give these things to you. Give me all you got. Give me all you got. I treated you like a son. You fucking stabbed me in the heart. Fuck you. Fuck you.

I don't know how we leave Will Patton out of this going forward. I almost feel like he has to be added. Great point. The Scott Pritchard overacting. Or the other move is just going back right to just calling it the Saul Rubin Ecker word and dumping everybody else. It's kind of a what's aged the worst. The like hysterical queer guy who's like the villain. Like in the 80s there were so many versions of that. Yeah. And he's really going for it. And yet

It's a very entertaining character and it makes the movie very fun. I am not going to let you interfere with this investigation! Well, this all led to his bizarre performance in Remember the Titans, which I enjoyed. Which we broke down a million podcasts ago. And then... He's great in Armageddon. Bizarre.

iconic well bizarre and iconic we're just overnight he's just like all right denso what a game i'm in um never been mad to see him in a movie yeah and then he had the discount version of him on oz terry kinney uh-huh it was like will patton must have passed on the part and terry kinney stepped in but they were always like i felt like they were running terry kinney patten we're always circling the same stuff tough beat for terry kinney terry kinney is like

Like one of the great actors. Yeah. They're both in good stuff. I felt like there was only room for one of them though. It was like a Highlander situation but for bald guys with mustaches in America. Yeah, there was only so who could be like the number four part in a movie but no higher. Winner gets Oz. Was there a better title for this movie? Probably but I don't know. Men of Power. I like that. That's solid.

Nice. Can you dig it? A word? Most memorable quote. You have no idea what men with power can do. The CR thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford. How does take a word? I got one that's lukewarm, which is, uh, 45 minutes in as a perfect place for one of the main characters to die. You're just used to Susan and you're like, Susan, Susan's going to be in this the whole movie. I wonder what, how they're going to, how's, what's the tension? What's it going to be? And then, you know, I'd never seen her trailer for this. So it's surprising the first time you watch it when she gets killed.

I noticed this reading the reviews and watching the Cisco and Ebert too, that every review is like, yeah. And then he, and then Gene Hackman kills her like in the review. And I'm like, what? Why?

Why would you? I noticed that too. Start of the second act, but it's late. It's like that should happen in the first 20 minutes and instead it's 45 minutes. When it's past the first 20 minutes of the movie, I don't think we should have. It's in the log line. It's like the death of a mistress. I knew. But does it indicate that Hackman is responsible? No. Did it make the movie better or worse for you that you knew she was going to die?

It just made you wonder every scene she was in is like, is this the scene? Oh, okay. I would say though, the first time I saw it, I didn't know any of that. That wasn't a hottest take. Mildly hotter take is if Tom just goes through the front door, she saves Susan's life. When she's like, you can go, he's like, please go through the back door. He's like, next time I leave, it's through the front door. If I'm leaving, but if he goes out the front door, Bryce scurries away or there's a confrontation, but she doesn't get killed.

I feel like you've really set the bar high on the hottest take. What's yours? What, last week with the... Like, you just want to throw things in the microwave. I'm here, like, I'm actually working on a stove. I thought it was the hottest take award. Okay, go ahead. I thought we were doing the True Lies created Fortnite. I thought those were hottest takes. My hottest take was that this is the superior, this is the movie twist of the 80s and 90s. And that those 90s twist movies, oh, this movie a tremendous death. I like it. It's a semi-hot take.

Yeah, I mean, because you're saying better than Sixth Sense. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's that's it's the same thing. Each one of those twist movies, Usual Suspects is the same thing. It's like this guy who you thought was this guy is actually this guy. And that totally reframes the way that you understand the movie when you revisit. Yes. And it's like it's a central premise that screenwriters sit in rooms and be like, how can I get to this point in my movie?

And this is, it's not the first movie to have ever done it, but it's done so brilliantly. And it's a movie that usually ends with like, you know, a man walking alone or something down a beach. And instead it ends and you're like, wait, what? And I would have loved to have had a conversation walking out of the movie theater the first time seeing this and like going to dinner afterwards. Because you would have spent two hours like picking over what had just happened. Yeah, that's a good call. My hottest take.

I miss Russian spies in movies like this. I just miss the old school Russian spy concept of a movie character. And it made me think as I've gotten older, these movie characters that were just awesome tropes, premises that you lose because you

time passes and history changes. Like we talked about in the Raiders pod. Nazis. Nazis were the best movie villains ever. But at some point now it's 2024. You just lose it. It gets dumped to the side. Even the Indiana Jones movies, I think, struggle to figure out who the bad guy is without Nazis. They went back to Nazis. I miss understandable villains. I don't know if we have that anymore because now it's like the amorphous terrorists and terrorists can be anybody. This is just simple. It's like we're battling the Russians.

They're trying to get information and power and whatever from us. You guys saw Red Dawn. You don't want that to happen. They might take over someday, but it was all simple and stupid. And now it's just so complicated. Like really anybody can be a villain. And I just kind of miss this era of like, oh, he was a villain. The fucking Yuri. Now he has our sub secrets. I mean, what's the last movie franchise that was, or even like just big tentpole movie that was reliant on an in like international intrigue.

And a villain. I mean, obviously the Bond movies do that, but they never make it about real world events. But now it's like all those Bourne movies where it's all like, they're trying to get a counterintelligence super, the cloud. There's some bad Russians in the Bourne movies, but yeah. It's all, all the villains now, they're all up to like these super confusing things. And back in the 80s, it was just like, that guy's a Russian. That's probably bad. It's really usually more like corporate overlords slash like, um,

Gun runner salesman, you know, like that, like that kind of thing. Now you don't have the countries of the 80s. It was just Russians and cartels. Now it's like this casino is trying to buy the Boston Celtics. We have to stop them. They're going to build a stadium and ruin the team. There's a reason why that happened, though. It's because Hollywood got addicted to getting money from overseas. These movies didn't used to play overseas. Yeah, true. But did somebody is like a casino really trying to buy the Celtics?

I mean, I think it's one of the possibilities. Yeah. Oh, man. Which casino? Is it Circus Circus? Which one? Treasure Island? It's the first-class Kumar casino. Yeah. Casting what ifs? The Borgata Celtics? Michelle Pfeiffer turned down Susan Atwell. I think I agree with the choice. She was killing it in the 80s. We're heading toward fabulous Baker boys. Just run it back in your mind. Bill Simmons, how old are you at this time?

You're what? In your late teens, early twenties? And a high school. Michelle Pfeiffer shows up. As Susan Atwell. As Susan Atwell. You're in a movie theater. I just think she's... What is your reaction? It's just not realistic that she's a Virginia mistress. I don't know. She's almost...

I just wouldn't have bought it. For some reason, I bought Sean Young. I think that's one of the best things about Sean Young is that she was super hot, but you feel like she could have been like bartending at a sports bar. Michelle Pfeiffer always was levitating above that. She was, she was Tony Montana's mistress. But that's like, she's a 20 year old cocoa or in Scarface basically. That's like her job. Preview of the Scarface pod coming at some point. Yeah. But it's, that was really, it wouldn't have been realistic seven years later. Yeah. Yeah.

Do you have like a Coke whore as you throw your life away for this? You want to do the Coke whore pyramid? Oh, God. Allegedly, not sure if this is true, but Mel Gibson and Patrick Swayze turned down Tom Farrell. This felt very...

Your skepticism about casting rumors is really interesting because you'll take some just at face value, but then you'll be like, I'll say them, and you'll be like, ah, we sure about that? Well, from the 80s, this one Michelle Pfeiffer definitely did. We have confirmation. The other one, it just felt like they had Costner pretty early. So what about the Bryce casting stuff? You think Joe Donbeck was up for part? Yeah, I just feel like they're throwing, like Paul Newman was up for David. Paul Newman was never doing this movie. Mel Gibson, I buy. He's too young, though.

They must have been around the same age. Gregory Peck, too old. Can we just talk it out about the guys who were also up for Scott Pritchard? What was that? I don't know that list. Gary Oldman, Stephen Lang, Alec Baldwin, Michael Biehn, and James Spader. Biehn Hive? Yeah. Can I be honest? All of them would have been great.

Spader may be three years too young, but that's a good one. Gary Oldman. I know he's a little young, but that would have been electric. I actually really liked Will Patton as Scott. He's great. Me too. Just wanted to talk it out. He makes the movie incredibly memorable. Best that guy award. Fred Thompson ineligible, even though I kept calling him Joe Don Baker. So maybe he should be eligible. But it's the guy who runs the boat rentals and ends up in Tim Cup. I still don't know that guy's name. Dennis Berkley. Yeah.

Dion Waiters. Bill the pervert limo driver. That's for Dion? Yeah. I had Mrs. David Bryce, whose all her job is to just seem pleasant next to David Bryce as he's trying to figure out where Sean Young is. She's going to come up in a second. Oh, I love this band. They're great. Tom's drunk buddy in the Philippines. Dion Waiters it up at the bar. It's a good call. Fred Thompson. I'll be damned. Well, he will be too if you believe the Old Testament. And then...

Then the winner for me, Iman.

I don't know why she's in the movie. She's in three scenes. Smoking hot. She works at a mall. She's got a passport from South Africa. What would happen if you just wandered through the mall and Iman is working in it? There's no reason for her to be in the movie. She works at a mall, but she can afford a Washington, D.C. It's just like we just need a striking actress for two scenes. I do think George Zunza in the gym, he's going for it. His acting style has completely changed. And then I felt like he's shaking and quivering.

He's good. Recasting couch director city. No, thanks. I like everything about what they did here. I don't really have any notes. Well, you would have gotten Joe Don Baker in the mix, but otherwise Joe Don probably was right. He was one B for Howard Duffer or for Fred Dalton Thompson. Tony Romo or Chris Collinsworth or someone else.

for the director's commentary. Now, Mike, this is a great play call from Susan Atwell. She calls him ancient mariner to stimulate his intellect, but then she offers fellatio to get his temperature rising. Golly. He's putting up the window, Jim. I think he was the Russian, Jim. They're calling him Yuri. Half-assed internet research.

I was going to do a bill Raftery as the director's commentary. Cause I don't know if you heard any of the bill Raftery doing the Olympic basketball, but kind of never seen an NBA game before and Collinsworth for Raftery and DB. Oh my God. Rafters like Tyrese Halliburton. You know, he can make those threes. I'm like, Oh, Kenny bill Raftery. We just watched him for three rounds. You still get onions. You know, you still get, it was fine. It just unclear who they were. I see you, Susan.

You know, Yuri's come a long way. We're all very proud of Yuri. Mr. Yuri. Mr. Yuri, you're doing the work behind the scenes. Doris Burke calls the movie is also a really good category.

Half-asserted research. The limo stuff was apparently somewhat improvised with the window up. Was the driver improvised? Was the driver like, hey! Very possibly. Somehow they had to pay him lunch. Is the rule in a stretched limo in the 80s that you get to watch whatever you want until they ask for the barrier to be put up? I think so. Goddamn. I think that might still be the rule. Is it? Yeah. So is there no rear view mirror if you put the visor up?

I'm working on a Waymo drama. I don't know if you guys have ridden a Waymo yet. No, I haven't. My son's got on the waiting list. Yeah, there's no driver. Yeah, I know. You're writing a drama about a Waymo car? Well, I just feel like there's no driver and it just feels like the next great crime movie where there's a murder and a Waymo. It's called Waybro. When a truck hits you. Something terrible happens. Or it's called Waynegro. Waynegro Waymo.

Costner rolled over the hood of a moving car during one of the chase sequences and got yelled at by everybody. And then Susan's house is on the corner of Queen and Union Streets in Alexandria, Virginia. There was not a lot of half-assed internet research about this movie. I was surprised. Yeah, it's all like, did you know that Gene Hackman and Kevin Costner worked together again? Apex Mountain. Costner, no.

Sean Young, it's probably that Stripes Blade Runner stretch where it felt like she was going to be one of the big actresses, which led to her getting Dune. I don't think it's this. I think Blade Runner is what she's most remembered for. Can I ask you, Apex Mountain for movie mistresses? Is it this or Debbie Mazur? Oh, wow. Movie mistresses? Yeah. Or Gumar? Well, I just mean... Gosh. Movie mistresses? Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, man. Why didn't you? You should text me this. I would have done a deep dive. And there's got to be more memorable mistresses. Is there a mistresses channel on Tubi? That's a good idea. Should there be? Can't they just give us the car keys for Tubi? Half of their categories. I'm like, what are you doing, Tubi?

What is this category? You want better categories on Tubi? They have 80 categories and 40 of them are like incoherent. Yeah. And then there's like film noir. It's like, oh, I know what that is. Fortunately, there's a listicle on Vogue.com called 25 Movie Mistresses with Looks We Love from Holly Golightly to Mrs. Robinson. Check that out. Oh, Mrs. Robinson's a good one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She is a good one. No, but it's more Debbie Mazars probably.

Probably the most influential one for a movie. She is very influential. Like for a major movie. Yeah.

Also, maybe next episode we'll come back or down the road. The Mistress Pyramid, like Soprano has like four of them. I mean, Sharon Stone in Casino. Who's the woman at the wedding? Does James Woods count? Does he get to be on the Mistress Pyramid? Who's the woman at the wedding that Sonny Corleone takes down? Yeah. That's Andy Garcia's mom. Yeah. That's a good one. And she's like a big character in the book.

Yeah, that's a good one. There's a very vivid description of their sex scene in the novel. How about in Godfather 2, Tom Hagen's mistress, who we never know who it is, but Corleone says, and you could take your wife and your mistress and live happily ever after. Tom Hagen had a side piece. He had a little side action. That was the time. Can't hold it against him, you know? Hackman, no. DC film noir. I think so.

I think so, too. I'm trying to think if there's a 40s movie set in D.C. I don't really think so. There must be one. Is there like a Hitchcock? No? How about the 80s Russian sub scene? I mean, no. It's hunt for October. George Zunza murders? Would you go this or Basic Instinct? Can you just say Zunza again? Zunza? That was good. George Zunza? Yeah. I mean, his name is spelled D-Z-U-N-D-Z-A. Yeah. Great name.

Good deer hunter performance by him. I like him. He's a good actor. Yeah, he's a good one. Great law and order cop. He was an initial that guy who then graduated Joey Pants down and became George. Yeah, he's like an above the fold law and order star. No question. He did. The Omni Shoreham Hotel. We've really been giving out some hotel love on the rewatchables. Will Patton, it's Remember the Titans. Yeah. That's his Apex Mountain? Yeah. Damn straight. For the Craig generation, they know him as...

the DC all night. Isn't he? What's this? It would be incredible if you could have, will Patton be your coach and NCAA through a wall. They won't get another yard. Shane Gillis has the funniest. Remember the Titans riff that he does about how it's like the setup of that movie. And it's like deep racism in the South and blah, blah, blah. And then it's like,

Wait, those guys are 4-0. I love this coach. Polaroids. Probably not. Apex Mountain for Polaroids. Yeah, for Polaroids in a movie. Memento. Memento. Great call. And then bellboys dressed like pirates being used as witnesses in a federal espionage case. Yeah, incredible. Definitely, yes. I love how he's still in uniform when they're taking him around. It's great.

Alright, so this next category, usually there's more suspense, but Cruise or Hanks, it's just a fucking wrap. This is the cruisiest part. There's two fucking chase scenes. I would argue Cruise saw this movie and was like,

God damn, man. I just love watching Kevin Costner sprint. From now on, I just want to sprint more of my movies. Cruise throwing himself into the windshield of a car. Cruise running through the mall. Cruise in the, in the, cruise in a strip club in Manila. Yeah. Cruise ripping a phone booth out of a wall for no reason. Cruise in the whites. He wore the whites five years later in a movie.

This actually, I think, might have been better with Cruise from an unintentional comedy standpoint. Might have been. Cruise talking Russian at the end. Although it's one of my favorite Costners, but I think it would have been. Cruise making the Tom Cruise face when he gets the document that Susan Atwell is dead and he does the... Yeah. I totally forgot on what's aged the worst. What? Is this...

Is this the worst haircuts in a sexy movie of all time? It was the age. For who? 1980s. Everybody. Scott's hair is insane. No, the woman. Scott. Sean Young's haircut is fucking horrible in this movie. Where she's got like kind of a dye job. Every haircut's awful. She has like mom hair, but she's like 24. Kevin Costner's hair is fucking weird. It's like cut awkwardly and not brushed. It's always wet. We didn't know what we were doing with hair in the late 80s. Very weird. I have some tough pictures.

Racehorse, rock band, wrestler, or fantasy team name. Listen, the horny hackmans is sitting there for anybody. It's good. Metapower is also, could be the title of the film, could be the title of a horse. Let's take one more break. We'll do pickin' its.

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It's a Camry vibe. Learn more at toyota.com slash Camry. Picking hits. I mentioned already, I'm not sure Susan breaks her neck and dies instantly from the eight foot fall into a coffee table. I feel like there's a lot of writhing around. Maybe there should have been a second. He hits her with a photograph or something. Or Scott comes and finishes his job. Susan snaps the Polaroid of Tom and his arms aren't doing this during that scene. And then in the Polaroid there, I don't know why they didn't catch that.

The Yuri framing plan that they kind of cooked up on the fly right as his dead Gumar is barely dead at that point. Scott's like, hey, Yuri. And then he's just like fucking Belichick trying to figure out how to beat the 2018 Rams. But how awesome must it have been to be in the Defense Department? Anything that goes wrong in your personal life, you can be like, oh, it's Yuri. We can just blame it on a Russian mole. We need a Yuri here at the Ringer, yeah.

Why didn't Amon just rat out Tom in the room? Because my guess is there's a scene or two missing where Sean Young's character is telling Amon how great she's loyal to Tom. Tom is fucking awesome. I love her friend. Yeah, I agree. My biggest one is why doesn't the why don't the Russians extract Tom? Like, why? Well, they have the scene where he calls from the pay phone and he says, I can't get out. Yeah. And that's why you don't get him out.

What does that mean? Well, I think it's his fault. Sarah just yawned, so I think we have to wrap it up. No, no, no, no. I'm sorry. I think that his job is not to get close to Susan. His job is to get close to Bryce. But he's compromised the minute Susan dies. Right. The minute Susan dies, his cover is ready. And in fact, not only that, but the assistance of the Secretary of Defense is orchestrating a plan to basically get him exposed. Right.

Also, like, FYI, maybe some condoms in 87 so they can't find your fluids on the Gumar. Just some bad spying by Yuri. What a comeback for Gumar. I'm surprised you didn't bring that up. Yeah. That was next on my list. What's up with Tom eating bugs off the windshield when they're driving the Chesapeake Bay? I always thought that was like a berry. Either way, it's gross. Yeah, it's weird. Is that a Russian thing? I didn't get it. Here's my biggest nitpick.

Would local news really be reporting on a spy hiding in the Pentagon? Like this is getting out. This is just like, Oh, I wonder what's going on in the news. There's a spy in the Pentagon. Like that's fucking crazy. They would never, but it is an area where a bunch of reporters are just standing around waiting for something to trickle out anyway. So I think that's why they didn't pass the snap, the sniff test with me, CR. Okay.

Any more nitpicks? I mean, just David Bryce's wife just never saying a word and just being like, see you later, Dave. Take the Chrysler. She loved those cocktail parties, though. Great host. The word in the street was great host. She did her job. She had a nice life. I would have liked to seen just seeing what his townhouse was like in downtown D.C. Yeah, me too. A little bit domestic life. Sequel, prequel, prestige TV, all black cast are untouchable. I think we would all agree.

this would be a really good prestige TV show. And after seeing what's happened with presumed innocent, where it's like, well, they can't do that. I know, I know who killed them at the end. Don't spoil the most recent episode of presumed. I'm not spoiling anything. I'm just saying the movie happened and we know what happens if you've seen the movie. And I would kick around our theories when you, when you walked in of what's going to happen in the TV show. Yeah. But we won't say it. I was going to say sequel, Yuri,

Living in America. Oh. Soviet Union falls in 91. He has to decide what he's going to do next. He becomes Arvita Sabonis' agent. Moves to Portland. And he's like, your son's good. I want to personally train with him. What if it's a prequel and it's Susan colon the Gumar years and it's just tracking her era? Would you...

If you fucking kill him over a Goomar joke. I was just thinking the Goomar years would be an amazing Netflix series. Oh my God. Someone at Netflix literally just jotted that down. The Goomar years. Season three. Or Scotty and Tommy. The college years. That probably goes to possibly unanswerable questions. Yeah. Which is... What was happening between them? Scotty and Tom. Scott is obviously... Doing this now? I'm just saying.

Are we sure Bryson's Scott? Well, Bryce is obviously very aware of Scott's infatuation with him and uses it. But he needs him. He leverages that. Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Trejo, Sam Jackson, JT Walsh, Byron Mayo, Harley Mays, Evil Laughing, Ramon Raymond, Philip Baker Hall, or Nell? Or Hudson from Aliens, which I'm going to keep doing until we do Aliens. I forgot to add him.

Oh, man. Susan fell over the railing. What the fuck are we going to do now, man? Game over, Scott. That's just great, man. I'm going to pack up a tail. I'm going to pack up a tail. Well, I've missed out on all the Paxton. There's been so much Paxton going on recently. Just want to ask her who gets it. Jordan Baker. I don't know what I did. Thank you, guys.

I think probably screenplay. Yeah. Good job, Bill. I don't think anyone is winning an Oscar for this movie. No, it's not really an Oscar movie. I don't have any unanswerables. We did everything. I did. What do you have? What does Susan and Tom talk about? Is it just sex constantly? Yeah. What do you think that they chat about? That one's running out after about a month and a half. Bestseller shelf at Walden Books? Like, what are they...

What's on their agenda talking? I think it's how much more time do you need before we have sex again? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, what's wrong with that? Nothing. I'm just saying. You know, why do we have to answer that question, Chris? That's kind of a broader, like, what do all married men talk about with their gumars? Yeah. Maybe that's a podcast series. That you can find on co-horses, colon, limited series. What was the gumar show? The Gumar Years. The Gumar Years. Yeah, that's part of the Gumar Years. Okay. No, I think they're probably, like, hanging out in...

He's like, and she's like, you following Cal Ripken street? Yeah. It's getting pretty interesting. That's where his Russian part comes out. He's played 1200 straight games. He's like, Cal Ripken. And then he's like, has to catch himself. He's like, Russian weightlifting team. Very good. This Olympics. She's like, do you think the Colts will ever move? He's like, no. I don't know about you, but Sam Bowie is a really smart pick.

That'd be funny if you AI'd dialogue for movies like this. Let's do it right now. I really like this Purvis Allison. I hope the wizards have a chance to pick him. Were these on the board then? Best double feature choice? With Revenge. Oh.

I had this with American Flyers first, followed by No Way Out. So you get the full before and after Costner is a star. Well, The Big Clock would be a good one, even though it's not as good or as twisty as this movie. I also thought Presumed Innocent the movie was...

Is a very good example of this kind of movie that we don't get, which is like very interesting mystery movie that is very sexy. With some big characters. With big actors and big stars, you know, about a world of power. And that stuff was like really humming from like 85 through 2000. You could say No Way Out is the remake would just be Democrats trying to get Biden out.

taping this on a Thursday, Wednesday. No. What's age the worst? That joke. And there's no way out. Unless Nancy Pelosi really steps it up. Can't argue. The Indian Reds' Watanay Award. What happened the next day? Yuri eventually becomes the coach of the 1992 Lithuanian team. Yuri runs the Lithuanian Republic.

What's with Lithuania? I don't know. Because after this, the Soviet Union's splitting in 89. But his whole point is he's getting in his whip and he's in America, right? All right, so Yuri's now waiting for Sabonis. What if Yuri moves to Iowa and opens a cornfield where then he winds up putting a baseball field? Ray Kinsella is actually Russian. Here's my actual answer. No, this is bizarre. David Bryce murdering Susan Atwell becomes one of the great murder trials of the 80s.

Maybe it starts C-SPAN. Like, oh, day three in the Bryce trial. But Scott is going to be held responsible, right? No, because Costner gives the note at the end. Right, right. To implicate Bryce. I think at least brings his political career down if not making him. This is right around Iran-Contra time. I mean, that's the question. Does Tom stay or leave?

Does he go back to Russia or does he stay in the States? I think he stays in the States. I think he's had a taste, you know? Would you rather have No Way Out 2 or Waterworld? I would rather have No Way Out 2. I wish that there were more movies like this. You know my take on this is that Waterworld is now underrated. Like, Waterworld is actually a pretty cool action movie. I test drove that take and watched 20 minutes of Waterworld and I was like, Sean's fucking nuts. But there's like...

Once you get past the setup and you start getting into the action scenes, it's like pretty crazy that they pulled that movie off. Yeah. Fair. To me, if you were like, the postman is actually good, like that movie's not good. Like he's made plenty of movies that like are long and boring. Waterworld's not that bad though. It's not. It's not. No Way Out 2 would have been fun. What's next? Your Bobby Bonilla's contract actually wasn't that bad. Is that next week? Was it? Was it that bad? Was it that bad?

What piece of memorabilia would you want from this movie? This would be weird to have memorabilia from this movie, but probably the gift. Oh, yeah. Oh, the jewel box. Yeah. Is that Susan's car? That car is dope. We've made cars ineligible for this category. I know. I was just curious. Did Bryce get her that? It's a good question. What does she do? I think she lies around in her bed all day. No offense. Well, she says we both work for Bryce. He's like, he's my boss.

I think she probably helps out at the mall, helps out Oman sometimes. Okay. South African model friend who's just kind of working on the floor here at the Georgetown Mall. Coach Finstock will wear a best life lesson. Don't have a Gumar. Don't have a Gumar and don't trust anyone who might seem like a Russian. That's the thing. That's the genius of the movie is has Kevin Costner ever in his life seemed like a Russian? That's why the movie's great. Yeah.

He's perfect. He's the all-American man. It's so great when he's like, oh, it's been a while since I've heard Russian. You know? Who won the movie? Costner. Agree. You don't want to do a Sean Young test drive with Sean Young. She's just not in enough of it. I think she's incredible and she makes it. It's Costner. Costner's great in this movie. Yeah. Costner Cruise is a really fun movie.

You want to spice up that category going forward? I don't know if Cruz... No, just for this movie. I don't know if Cruz is old enough in 87. He's still like in that Pete Mitchell kind of cocktail. And I don't think Costner is like... It's a movie he needed to make in 1995. Certain about who he is and how he's perceived. He really fucks with his image in this movie. He does. Who is the best possible version of Yuri in this movie? Is it...

Like, could Brad Pitt in the late 90s, early 2000s have been even better in this? I think Brad Pitt should do a movie like that where it turns out he's something completely different. I think that's a good call. I mean... Donaldson makes a version of this again called The Recruit. It's Pacino and Colin Farrell. I don't mind The Recruit. Yeah. It's... Well, I don't want to give away The Recruit, but some similar themes. You're concerned about spoiling a 20-year-old movie. Now it's time.

Producer Craig. Watched this movie. A movie that came out 37 years ago. He was like minus seven. You knew nothing about it. We told you not to Google anything. What'd you think? I think the twist wins the movie if that's allowed. If that's not allowed, my boy, Will Patton wins the movie. Not even close. Will Patton is out of his mind. You guys undersold the whole thing. I think Will Patton could have been the Joker. Like I think he would have been a great Joker. Yeah, that's a good one. Um,

Will Patton is the Joker. Oh, he would have been an incredible Joker. He never really went this big again. Yeah, he's more like a kind of humble character actor. Yeah. Which is funny. Yeah, so I watched this movie with my brother. He was in town for work and I was like, hey, I know we only have one night to see each other. Would you be interested in watching No Way Out? He had never heard of the movie. Neither did I. We watched it.

The twist blew us away so much. Like, we both stood up when the twist happened. Rewatched the last 15 minutes of the movie again. So when he makes the payphone call and he's like, I can't... Didn't pick up on it. We were just like, you know, it just goes over your head. Yeah. Like, the landlord guy, we were like, that's weird. I don't know what his landlord's deal is. You know, and again, you piece it all together afterwards. Truly...

I've actually had the sixth sense spoiled for me. So this might be maybe usual suspects. Did you have primal fear spoiled for you? No. Okay. But this one hit way harder. I think the Costner thing just completely blindsides you. All that to say, I thought the movie was awesome. You guys are way off with Sean Young.

She doesn't work at all. Wow. Interesting. Really? Huge miss. Maybe it's a generational thing. Zero appeal. I thought she was like a cartoon. Her like weird, I thought there's a scene in the lake house and she like pulls up her dress and she's like, and I was like, what is this woman doing? She's like, you want to look down at my dress? Grow four inches. And I was just like, this is, we need to kill her immediately. Not wearing a condom with that woman is insane. This is up there with Philip Seymour Hoffman is overrated.

She has the most bizarre energy in this movie. I think her...

attractiveness really does belong to that time. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. That she does not make sense in any of this. I don't know if Craig can produce, throw your life away. Like, I don't know if he can. I think like, yeah, that is true. Borderline. Like the first 30 minutes of this movie are, are like actively bad because of her. And then, you know, the drawing of, you know, the meme of the horse, that's like a very detailed drawing. And then it gets crude at the end. This is like the opposite to me. Like every minute that goes by, like this movie gets better. But in the beginning, I was like, what is happening?

So, you're wrong about that. But we haven't discussed the Phil Hoffman take. You and I, off mic or on. And I need you to apologize for your sins. Like, you need to go to church. I stand by it. That is sinful. Maybe some of the movies I threw in aren't...

the correct call but for the majority of the movies I mentioned he's kind of just the same guy I told Bill I was like I've never had more people tweet at me about a podcast I was not on in my life when that take went out it was truly amazing listen we encourage all opinions here at The Ringer that's right

It's a big tent. If we don't agree with them. Yeah, all Gumars welcome. It just felt like, and again, I thought I would give this movie like a two thumbs up, but I still feel like the bar for movies was just lower back in the day. That is true. Because some of the movies that succeeded this year...

are movies that would just be like a Wednesday at Netflix now, like Stakeout, which I love. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You mean for like mainstream in the theaters? I think they look a lot better, and I think they have much better production values, though. Yeah, well, it's like basketball. You watch some of the people from the 80s, and you're like, oh, my God. Yeah, Larry Bird's lighting it up over Kent Benson. Yeah. But now, you know. But Benson had fundamentals, you know? True. All right, Craig.

Great movie. Great to produce this podcast. Thank you, Chris and Sean. I will see you next week. We're doing another one next week. Doubleheader. Yeah. Let's play two.