‘Body Double’ With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Sean Fennessey
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We are back to normal podcast. Sean Fennessey is here, host of The Big Picture. Yeah. Chris Ryan, president of Linda Shaw Enterprises. Can it be horny November? It sure can be. You have a new film coming out, Deep Ghost? The mating game? I'm not some stunt cop, Bill. Body Double is next. Don't blink. You're about to witness a crime of illusions.

An act of deception. A vision of murder. Brian De Palma, Body Double. You can't believe everything you see. Rated R. Starts Friday at a theater near you. All right, Body Double. 40th anniversary this fall. Brian De Palma, Sean's guy. Where's he in your Sean's guy rankings? Oh, my God. Is he one? He's my number one pervert. Schrader number one? Who's number one? Um...

Guys who are like, what I'm really thinking about is cranking it, he's number one. That's like all of his movies when you're watching them. He's like, gosh, I really like how that lady looks. That's what's running through his mind. In that ranking, he's number one. So this is dressed to kill crossed with rear window crossed with vertigo. And you just get the feeling De Palma, who I think was post-cocaine at this point, right? Well...

Hard to say, because you've got Stephen Bauer and Melanie Griffith being critical participants in this movie. But there's one interview he gave where he was like, everyone was basically in Cocaine's Anonymous playing Tribute Pursuit, and that's how he got to know Melanie Griffith better. Yes. I think it's right after Scarface. I think stylistically, there were still some granules on the back. Maybe there's some dust still. Like maybe not ingested, but it's like it's...

The pixie dust on screen is definitely... A misting. Yeah. My feeling is he just watched a bunch of Hitchcock movies and was like, what if these were way hornier? And then was off. Yeah. You could say that about a lot of movies in his career. Yeah. Many of his best movies are thrillers that are overtly inspired by Hitchcock. But he's like, now we can show breasts on screen. And he's excited about that. But also...

an incredible mastery of filmmaking craft, much like Hitchcock. Yes. CR? I just find this movie to be so delightful, even though it's so twisted and fucked up. Like, this is like a very funny movie. It reminds me kind of like David Lynch movies sometimes, where I'm just like, why is he making that face? And that's what makes it so rewatchable to me, is just like you can find all these little details in this thing, and then you can

Like, oh, I didn't notice that this guy was standing behind the payphone at that moment. You know? Like, it's a freeze-frame movie. It's a rewind-the-scene movie. It's so fun. Is it possible only guys like this movie? Because I tried to make my wife watch this with me, and multiple times in the first hour, she was like...

this is terrible. You're doing this on the rewatchables? Why are you doing this? Yeah. And then she just left. Does Carrie have a lot of Twitter accounts? I think he has made movies in his career that women like. You know, Carrie, for example, is a movie that women really love. Body Double is... Women love the Untouchables. They do not. Snake Eyes, they're big fans of. But this is maybe his most

The most pure distillation of his id, you know, the thing, this idea of watching women move, he has said, is a huge inspiration for this movie. He loves to literally follow women and observe how they move. And that's a part of the telling of this story. Man, there's this amazing interview out there. I can't remember which one it is, but it's like, this guy's asking De Palma...

all these sort of probing questions about like, or do you make immoral or amoral art and all this stuff? And he's like, you know, why, why do you always have to, it's the woman, woman's the victim and not the man. And he's like, it's way more entertaining.

Yeah. I saw that interview. Yeah. It was just like, it's way more interesting. What did he mention? He mentioned still the night with Roy Scheider. He's like, it sucked. Nobody wants Roy Scheider in danger. Yeah. Audrey Hepburn blind. That's awesome. Like, yeah.

He's given him and Schrader are probably leaders in the clubhouse for just awesome letting it fly. And I don't give a shit anymore interviews. Yeah. I'll just throw bombs left and right. But De Palma has always been like that. There's a great clip of De Palma on Dick Cavett's show with Scorsese in the early 70s, maybe mid 70s.

And even then, he's just, he's being such a sarcastic little bastard for every question that Dick Cavett asks. He never really cared, which is part of what makes him great. Yeah, I mean, if you have that kind of talent, you can afford to be that cocky. But, you know, there's so many different ways his career could have gone if probably he played ball like five more percent. But then it wouldn't be these movies. They would be slightly different, you know? This was the most power he had because he's coming off a stretch from 76 to 83. Carry the Fury, Dress to Kill, Blowout, Scarface.

And then Columbia is like, three picture deal, go. And he's like, thank you. I will go, actually. I have some ideas. I was doing Dressed to Kill and there was a whole thing with Angie Dickinson's body double. And I thought, hmm, what a cool idea for a movie. And then I watched every Hitchcock movie and I lost my mind.

He also, I think, was getting a lot of backlash for those movies that were the ones you listed off that were so popular. And some directors and some artists might be like, oh, okay, I'll soften it up a little bit. I'll change gears.

He's just like I'm gonna go 110% in the direction that people criticize me in you know violence even to the end Yeah, nudity throws in a blood going over a body doubles breast scene just to end the movie for the credits Yeah, he's like this basically I do think he's weirdly though being honest about the fact that this is what he believes people want because like this is what I want what I love is high-toned

beautifully imagined violence and sex. That's a human impulse. And there's nothing wrong with rendering it and making fun of the fact that this is what we like. Like, this movie is, it's a comedy. It's a satire. Like, it's meant to be fun and funny and ridiculous. It's all on purpose. So, I don't blame him for pursuing that. I wrote the Wikipedia article

The description should have been an emasculated, cucked, claustrophobic, stalking, peeping Tom, wannabe adult film producer, almost finds love with a porn actress and an embattled wife who gets murdered by a drill. Dressed to kill coming up next. It's pretty accurate. Yeah. Yeah. It's one of the weirdest. And I want to really go into the casting of that. One of the weirdest protagonists we've had, but it seems like a big inspiration for him.

It was really fun reading all the De Palma interviews. I watched the documentary. He said in 2024, because he was doing press for the 40th anniversary, I think why my type of movies last so long is they're very cinematic.

Cinema kind of died with celluloid because you don't have the same cinematographers anymore. You don't have film anymore. It's now completely dominated by the writers and showrunners and the movies and shows are basically radio plays full of people talking to each other. They're all shooting digitally. It doesn't look very interesting. He was very obsessed with look. I had a very funny experience with this where I watched it once and then I was kind of like watching it to take notes and

And I'm obviously very used to watching TV at this point where I kind of more or less just need to hear it. It's almost like a podcast with moving pictures. Yeah, I mean, like, especially if you're, like, watching a lot, you're just like, oh, okay, like, these two people are talking about whether this guy is the bad guy or not. And it's like, they're sitting in a room, you don't really, it's not like there's going to be some amazing piece of filmmaking that you miss. But I actually, like, I got to go get a bottle of water while Body Level was on, and I was like,

oh, I missed, like, I missed the whole point of this being on film and on screen in the first place is to visually stimulate and or terrify and or accelerate your heartbeat and that the dialogue is basically secondary in this film and in many De Palma films. Even the story, which is, um,

Like labyrinthine and confusing at times. And kind of silly. But not very good. You know, the story of this movie, because he talks about this, how it's all about this. He wants the structure. Like he's interested in the structure. And then everything else that goes into it, the plotting and the dialogue is sort of like the details you have to figure out afterwards. He's like, but I have an idea about a movie where a guy observes someone, but the person that he's observing isn't the person he thinks it is. Like that's the thing that gets him excited about making the movie, which is different than...

We're making a new TV series and it has a high concept. And what's most important is that the dialogue crackle. He doesn't care about that stuff. That's why I have like 13 nitpicks coming up later. There's some holes. It's flawed. Yeah, it's flawed. I love it though. I saw this movie. I did not see in the theater. I've never seen this movie in the theater. Actually, I would like to see this movie. I would too. I haven't either. Yeah, I saw this. This was in the HBO, you know, early blockbuster vortex. I'm a teenager. Yeah.

And it was like, this was a run where we had American Gigolo, Dressed to Kill, Body Heat, Postman, Always Rings Twice, Thief of Hearts, Crimes of Passion, Tightrope, and Body Double in five years in the early 80s. I'm going to call this horny film noir. I think that's exactly what it is. Because it's like erotic thriller crossed with film noir. And it's this specific category. It even shifts as the 80s go along. Because then in the late 80s, we get into this nine and a half weeks, Angel Heart.

Fatal Attraction, Masquerade. It becomes more popcorn. An Adrian line kind of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. These are more like really cool Hitchcock homage type movies. I think it's a hinge point between Body Heat and Basic Instinct. You know what I mean? Like if those are really the two poles of that era of those kinds of movies and two of the best examples, Body Double is like the most lurid but the most mainstream at the same time. Yeah. Well, as a teenager, it worked. It was great. Fell in love with Melanie Griffith.

So what was your relationship to her before this movie came along? Only knew her from one-on-one with Robbie Benson. She played the hitchhiker. Didn't know any of the lore. Because she was in some movies in the 70s when she was a teenager. She had a little run as a teenager. She was in Drowning Pool, Night Moves, Smile. Pretty severe problems in the early 80s. I think pretty legendary wild child.

And then I think cleaned it up a little bit. And then by the end of the 80s, it was one of the biggest actions we had. Yeah. Like she's in Working Girl. That movie is a phenomenon. Her 80s, her mid-80s is even more amazing than I had remembered. Yeah. The run that she goes on after this movie is incredible. Because of this movie. Yeah. And that's when Something Wild happens, right? Something Wild is immediately after Fear City, the Abel Farrar movie. And then she's in Milagro Beanfield War, the Robert Redford movie, and Working Girl in the same year. She also had... And Pacific Heights.

It's pretty rare that somebody had the exact look of the look you needed in the year. Like you see her in this movie. It's exactly what a lot of the musicians looked like. A lot of like the porn actresses looked like. You name it. It was just wrestlers, whoever it was. She just kind of fit in perfectly. And then it crests with Pacific Heights, one of the great movies of all time. Yeah.

It's up there. When she battles Carter Hayes. It's up there with La Notte. Yeah. Her versus Carter Hayes is where her career is. Have you done that on the show? No, I've been saving it. Okay, all right. There's From Hell. It might be From Hell Month. From Hell Year. Yeah, just From Hell until we run out. Do we have to wait for the election to determine that? Yeah, maybe. Okay.

De Palma said about this movie at the time, if this one doesn't get an X, nothing I ever do is going to. This is going to be the most erotic and surprising and thrilling movie I know how to make. I'm going to give them everything they hate and more of it than they've ever seen.

They think Scarface was violent. They think my other movies were erotic. Wait until they see Body Double. You dropped a little bit. You think you're better than me? I know, I know. He's like, Boston Brian? You think I can't push your envelope? He didn't actually get to do what he wanted to do, though. But that's... I was going to have this for the hottest take. I feel like this movie's pretty tame compared to what the potential of it was. I agree. Because you've watched Crimes of Passion now. That movie's insane. Yeah. I think that this movie...

pretends like it's incredibly horny and titillating and is actually more about like how funny and weird all this like sex industry and sex it can be. And so that's, he's like selling you on like, yeah, it's a lot of topless chicks in this movie. It's great. But then you get there and you're like, oh, this actually isn't,

This isn't titillating at all because it's like, what if this was just a day job for people, you know? The porn industry stuff. Yeah. But also spending two hours with Craig Wasson, who's like the weirdest dork of all time. Can we talk a little bit about the casting of The Leading Man? I have that right here. Two more things on De Palma. He hired this writer to work on the scripts of Robert Avrek, who later said his work on the film was working off De Palma's ideas of Hitchcock's ideas.

So there you go. And then De Palma, the research on this was great. He originally planned for this to be the first Hollywood film to have unsimulated sex scenes. That's what I was referring to. And the studio was like, nope, no thank you. I'd like to know that quote that you read of his, if that came before he got told he could not do that. Yeah. Because he was like, I'm going to make a mainstream porno. That's my plan here. And didn't get the chance. The 80s were great. Yeah.

As we've said many times, just cocaine was fueling a lot of the creativity from 78 to 86. It's so funny because it took us like 37 minutes to get to work today. And I was like, I'm watching these guys just like drive their gas guzzling convertibles like from Culver City to the Hollywood Hills in five minutes. And I'm like, ah, God damn it.

Yeah, cast decisions. So, in order, Craig Wasson is the lead. He's like Bill Maher crossed with Breckin Meyer. Nailed it. I'm going to pass out how that's so good. That's exactly what he looks like. It's like if they had a kid. That's perfect. I have no idea why he's the lead of the movie.

And I think De Palma's smarter than us, so there had to have been a reason he wanted to have somebody who wasn't an actual A-lister or a star. Yeah. People have talked about it, like it just doesn't work if it's Travolta. Exactly. It doesn't work if it's Al Pacino or something. And you're like, oh, that's Al Pacino or John Travolta. Who's a big-time movie star that you would also describe as a cuck?

Does one exist? Well, but nobody would want that part where it's like, hey, cool. I'm doing this movie where I walk in on my girlfriend riding somebody in my room. And it's like the funniest scene. It's not like he's like, oh, no. He's like. Yeah. And he just kind of like skulks out of the of the room. Like it's it's so emasculating. Yeah. So that's why. Yeah. Because I had him recasting couch. I was like, if Kurt Russell is this guy, is this a better movie or a worse movie?

I think it's a worse movie, but you would get a better lead performance. Yeah. I think that, you know, I don't want to get too far ahead, but like Tom Hanks is kind of perfect for this part. I thought about Tom Hanks too. Because the, you know, what he's doing is he's trying to recreate the Jimmy Stewart part, the regular, the ordinary man that he, that Hitchcock was so good at portraying. And in the forties and fifties and sixties, the ordinary man, uh,

were seem more like regular guys. Yeah. They didn't seem like Tom Cruise or they didn't seem like Patrick Swayze or John Travolta. They were like, they look like somebody's dad. Yeah. But a more handsome version. And so that isn't really the trend in 84. And so he leans into a guy who, you know, seemingly is a dweeb. Could it have been Dreyfus?

I walked in on my girlfriend. I can't do it. You do a better dry fist than me. Do a dry fist. Come on. The bite radius on my girlfriend was not from a tiger shark. It's ridiculous.

That's pretty good. Yeah, that was good. Sometimes you gotta defer to CR with the impersonations. Wasn't Dreyfuss like lost at this time? He was done. Yeah, but he had been in Goodbye Girl. Like he had been in Jaws. But that was five years earlier. But he was in Hits though. But in 84, he was in a cocaine park. This guy literally is the dude who moves to LA to be an actor.

thinks he's hot shit, finds out he is like the 350th draft pick in that town, and spends all of his time doing B movies or going to auditions and going to acting classes. So he's kind of perfect, but he's also, as a quarterback, he's a game manager at best. I think that he's perfect in the first act of the movie. Kind of the Minshew. When it changes over when the playoffs come in this film, I think you want a little bit more of like a blue chip arm behind center. Can you do the claustrophobic face? Yeah.

This movie also did nothing for his career. No. Everything that comes after this. Because he won a Golden Globe for an Arthur Penn movie that I'd never heard of, Four Friends. Oh, yeah, sure. And he kind of just does a lot of voiceover work, and he's done a lot of B-movies. Could you have talked yourself into Caruso? David Caruso? Oh, yeah. Uh...

There's no way anyone would cheat on David Caruso. It's truly Caruso, like, two years after Officer and a Gentleman. Stop of legends! Can you imagine watching Gloria? Being like, stop of legends! Stop of legends! Right there! It's a really weird lead choice. It's for movies that I really like and I've seen a million times. This is probably the weirdest...

number one person in a movie. It still sticks out. Even seeing him in the credits, it's like, ah. Yeah. He is the star of the movie. Yeah, star of a movie. Billy Griffith is only in like 18 minutes of this movie. Star of a, like a top five at the time famous director. Yep.

Just was like, that's my guy. I was watching this in like the first eight minutes after he leaves the set and he's like stops and gets hot dogs with onions on everything. He's like that. And he's like picking everything up and he keeps jumping into his car. He doesn't like get in through the door. I was like,

Did I pick the... Like, am I having a stroke? Is this actually the first 15 minutes of this movie? Is this guy just, like, kind of haggling across Los Angeles? And it's really strange because you're just like, this dude is not a movie star. No. No. There are a lot of people like this guy who come to Hollywood and they're like, I know...

Maybe I'm missing a couple things, but I feel like, and they point to two actors that maybe they can follow that path. And within five years, they're moving back to Kansas City. And then Giamatti's like, fuck no. Get out of here. Giamatti's like, clear out. So Giamatti could have been somebody 30 years later, right? He could have been Dennis Franz, yeah. Deborah Shelton, who plays Gloria Revelle, is so bad in this movie that they had to redub her voice with Helen Shaver.

which I don't ever remember reading, and we've done 363 rewatchables, so I don't ever remember somebody being cast. It's almost like a spaghetti Western. Like, it almost makes his interactions with Gloria feel, like, otherworldly. Yeah. I just watched a movie called Death Game with Seymour Cassell, where the same thing happened, where at the end of the movie, that...

They needed to do ADR because it wasn't recorded well enough. But Seymour Cassell hated the director. And he was like, fuck you. I'm not coming back for ADR. So they dubbed over his entire performance with somebody else's voice. But in an American movie production, it's very rare. Yeah. Because I always thought that was her voice. And I was...

wondered why she wasn't a bigger star because she's hot. Yes. But it turns out, I don't know what was wrong with her voice. But did she have a voice like Fran Drescher? I don't know. What is Debra Shelton's voice like? No, I watched an interview with her. I thought it was totally normal. I watched a bunch of interviews with her connected to the anniversary of this movie. Helen Shaver, she was fine. She was an amazing voice. Yeah, great voice. But Helen Shaver, she's got the, I smoke two packs a day voice, which is very sultry. That's why CR was like, hey there. Hey-o.

Well, and then Melanie Griffith, he casts her and she becomes a massive star almost immediately. Gold Globe nomination, but revives her career. De Palma said, I knew Melanie because we played Trivial Pursuit together. It was Steve Bauer and Melanie and a bunch of other actors. These were all actors that had come out of like Cocaine Anonymous. They're all being rehabilitated. I got to know her quite well and she really wanted to play the part.

We have a really good casting for this. But I don't know anyone else who's like Melanie Griffith, like this 80s version of Melanie Griffith.

There's certainly been nobody in the last 20 years like this. She's in a tradition of a certain kind of movie star like Judy Holliday. She was in the remake of Born Yesterday or certainly Marilyn Monroe. Don't underestimate the intelligence of this beautiful blonde. That's like a traditional Hollywood archetype. Seemingly ditzy but not really. Anna Faris tried to pull this off but couldn't pull it off.

She did in the Cameron Diaz Coppola movie. Right, Lost in Translation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, she is in that tradition. Cameron Diaz is in that tradition. You know, it's like an archetype that kind of persists. She, though, has something a little bit different because she's like really naughty. Yeah. Like there's something very... Yeah, more so than Jamie Lee Curtis in Trading Places. Right. And Jamie Lee Curtis was rumored for this movie. I think Melanie Griffith works so much better. It needs to be ditzy, but kind of street smart.

ultimately like a little bit dirty yeah yeah yeah you buy her as holly body in this movie oh yeah oh yeah yeah you have bought her on vhs chris has literally bought her on three-quarter inch tape here's the palma the palma on erotic thrillers are they dead was the question i think so i don't know what's going to change something new will emerge maybe it'll have to come out of europe but

But I don't see it. As I said, I'm constantly looking for stuff to look at. It's in the hands of the writers and the showrunners who are being paid a lot of money by tech companies. This is not a good place for independent art to evolve. It is funny that this guy could just basically be like, I love watching porn. And we're like, oh, God, what an auteur. He's just like, you know, he's really putting in the work. And he's just like, I'm scouting Europe. Trust me. Yeah.

There's an emerging porn culture. Emerging erotic thriller industry out of Bulgaria. The reason... It's like he found the Luka Doncic of erotic thrillers. You guys... He was on erotic thriller NBA TV. Watch his Eurohoops. Also...

You know, at the time this movie was made, Columbia was owned by Coca-Cola. It's not as though like, oh, the tech companies are holding him back in 2024. Like this was always true. He was always kind of pushing the envelope and trying to get stuff done that other people wouldn't want him to do. It does tie to a question that has been being asked this year about nudity in films and how to approach sex when sex is so available on the Internet. What was that movie you liked, Onora?

Yes, the film that is most likely to win Best Picture this year, yeah. It has a ton of nudity and sex I haven't seen yet. Yeah, it does. I mean, it's about a... How would you compare it to like Bulgarian erotic thrillers coming out around now? It's a little more tame. Or Hollywood. Yeah, I mean, but that's a movie though about like the consequences of working in that environment. And this movie, I would not say is about that. This movie is not like, here's the downside of being Holly body. It does seem like it's trying to say something about the movie industry though. Yeah.

For sure. One of the rewatchable scenes we'll get to is when

When Jake and Holly Boddy, they're finished getting a drink and they run into that actress. Yeah. And they start talking about, oh, what's going on? What are you working on? And it feels like De Palma's trying to say something. Like these two worlds are not that far apart. Yeah, we're all whores. Everyone who does this work is a whore, whether you're actually in a film where you're having sex or if you're just trying to get your next job, you're whoring yourself all the time. And the ending, I think, is the other one where he's like,

Yes. Yeah. You think a gratuitous nudity? Okay, watch this. Yeah. For no reason at all, I'm going to actually have a body double scene and I'm going to shoot it perfectly and put blood on the boobs. It's one of the great kind of like tongue-in-cheek joke endings of a movie. It's just like everything that you were sort of like

you know, getting so excited by for the last two hours is just like a guy with a steel bar measuring how far this woman was from the camera. And it's like, it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's really behind the scenes. It's also an echo of the Angie Dickinson scene in Dress to Kill, which is like a shower scene that is kind of focusing on her. Well, you guys don't remember because you were probably not born yet. But I remember that, that body double, that was a big, there was like a People magazine feature about her. Mm-hmm.

And I remember thinking like, and I hadn't even seen the movie, but I was like, wait, so they have, somebody's getting naked, but then somebody else is the one getting, I'm like, what's, I was like 10. Yeah. I was like, what's going on? There was a pretty famous one when we were growing up.

Where it was like, that is in her real butt or something. God, I don't remember what movie it was. There's been a lot of those, though. There was one in the 90s that was very memorable. Because I remember when striptease came out, it was like, that's Demi Moore. Like, there are no body doubles in this movie. That is her dancing. You know, it's unmistakable. But a lot of the time, in those situations, you'd use a body double. Really fun...

I'll be 22 years in LA this month, and I've seen this movie a bunch of times, having never lived here, not knowing where anything was, but now that I'm here, it's one of the better, oh, oh, oh, that place. Hey, Farmer's Market. Yeah, he's going to the Grove Farmer's Market. Yeah, tail the pup. Barney's Beanery. Is the mall that she buys the underwear, is that? That's the Rodeo one. My wife goes there. She was all excited about that. That was before she stormed off. This movie sucks.

It's pretty different, though. Like, you don't see L.A. captured this way on film anymore because you can't shoot movies here the same way. Right. It's much harder. Because we have a dumb mayor who won't give tax credits to have people shoot film and TV here so we can make more money. Absolutely. That's why she got booed at Dr. Stead. That's exactly why. No, that's why she got booed. That's why. Yeah.

Like, how about this? Let's shoot movies and TV shows here. They should do whatever they have to do to make that happen. LA is a beautiful city. LA is a great city with a storied tradition of shooting shit here. Let's start making it happen again, dumbasses.

It was really nice to see LA though. And so that house, which it's called the Chemisphere. Yeah. I always thought it was on Sunset because there's a house on Sunset going toward the Palisades. That's up on Stills. That's up. And I was like, oh, that's the body double house. And it's not. It's near. It's closer to like the Valley. It's on Mulholland. Okay. Yeah.

famous house. Sean thought about it. It was on sale like, I don't know, 10 years ago or something, eight years ago while I was living here. And it was expensive, but not as expensive as you would imagine, probably because it's not very functional, not a very efficient home to live in. Great, great. Tough run for the kids with the 700 stair stairs. Hold on, I have to get the free killer to come meet us. Yeah. But I remember talking to Eileen and saying like,

Is there any chance you would consider living here? Just because I love Body Double and also I love the Hollywood Hills, I thought it would be a cool place to live. If I had it now with a three-year-old, I would be so fucked. So fucked. You could never do it. Could never do it. It's hard to decide whether it's the best house on Stiltz or if that still belongs to Lethal Weapon 2, to the one that Riggs pulls down. Good one. Or, uh, Neil, don't leave me like this.

That house is on stilts? Yeah. Overlooking the ocean. That house was for sale like a year ago. How did he get... I mean, I know how he got it. He robbed banks, but that was a great spot. Really nice. I was like, do you run a credit check or what? That's a really good point. Yeah, this is... It's a very celebratory LA movie. Everything... All the stuff during the day, you're just like, oh, yeah. Although they cheat a little. They go to Long Beach for the hotel scene.

Oh, is that where that is? Yeah. It makes it seem like that's in like Santa Monica or Venice or Malibu. Oh, interesting. That's Long Beach. But even like the sun-baked, like the auditions that he goes to, the back lots, like all the like sort of all that stuff is really, really well rendered. Producer Craig.

Did you like the L.A. pieces of this movie? Wonderful L.A. Iconic L.A. movie. Okay. Well, I can't wait for your take at the end. I don't want to spoil it. One of the things that I like about the L.A.ness of it is that every set, every place he chooses to go

is in some way artificial, which is, like, a big part of the idea of the movie is, like, Tale of the Pup is this, like, art deco, you know, sculpture of some kind. The Rodeo Mall is this, like, beautifully designed but completely fake artificial space. And, like, those are the places he's most drawn to because that's, you know, that is what it's like living here. And then the movie often, like, will take flights of fancy where it's, like, is this actually... I mean, it's happening, but, like,

you know, change the back projection or, you know. Well, there's that great opening moment where the set is being moved, the desert scene, and you think it's real and then it starts moving and you're like, everything here is fake. But that's the whole movie though. Yes. I mean, well, I have a good unanswerable question for that. Where was the office for Linda Shaw Enterprises? Yeah.

When you went into work, was it a three days a week there? That's out back in your shed now. That's right. It's in the ADU. When you're filming one day at a time. Karen Bass has encouraged us to zone out. You would crush as one of those guys in the hot tub with her. What was that guy's name? Oh, the guy who's interviewing? Sid Goldberg. Sid Goldberg's doing incredible pod work. Sid Goldberg almost has the damn waiters locked up. When she's like, I'm an expressionist, he's like, I think you mean exhibitionist. Yeah.

Can't wait to talk about him. $10 million budget made $8.8 million. Sad. But it's lived on. It bombed and

Even when he did the documentary, he talks about it like it's just an abject failure. And I completely disagree. I love this movie. Well, it's beloved now, though. But in 2015, he was making it seem like it failed. I almost feel like once you feel like something failed, nobody will ever convince you otherwise. That's it. Yeah, he's also... When you think about the generation of filmmakers that he came up with, the last third of his career is not as...

as heralded as Spielberg and Scorsese. You know, it's not as... Not even close. He hasn't had that, like, auto green light, here's $200 million to make your dream project, Brian De Palma. And I don't think it's because he doesn't lack ideas. I think it's because his kinds of movies have really fallen out of fashion. I think he's also wildly uncompromising, doesn't play nice, talks straight. He's not, you know, Spielberg is...

you know, he's the real mayor of Los Angeles. You know, like De Palma is the opposite. He's dyspeptic. He's aggressive. He's very sure of himself and his hits are intermittent. He's not consistent. But like, I don't know. He made Mission Impossible. Sure. I mean, like let that guy make an action. Like why he didn't make more action movies in the 2000s. I don't know. He was so good at them.

It feels like as the years pass, he started to grow in stature with future generations. Absolutely. You can see the late 90s guys that came up were definitely influenced by him. I think there's another generation coming. I think Soderbergh, Fincher, Tarantino, those guys. There's so much Boogie Nights in this. They're pulling so much from his movies. Roger Ebert. This is honestly one of the greatest, greatest Ebert segments. Three and a half stars. We salute him.

an exhilarating exercise in pure filmmaking, a thriller in the Hitchcock tradition. There's no particular point except that the hero's flawed, weak, and in terrible danger, and we identify with him completely.

Pauline Kael came in and was like, hold my beer. Yeah. It's an awful disappointment. Yeah. She was like completely betrayed by De Palma, who she was a big defender of. I like when Pauline Kael is like, I hate this, but not for the reasons you think I do. Uh-huh. That's always like my favorite. This is a tough run for Pauline in that 82 to 84 range. She...

She became... She's falling out of step a bit. Yeah. She was a generation removed and super salty and picked the wrong battles. It's kind of her October Aaron Judge moment, you know? Yeah, that... Missing a lot of high insights. Yeah, you can get the cutter past her. Yeah. No, but she went and tried to make that movie, right? Yeah. With Warren Beatty. Warren Beatty lured her to come out and make a movie. And it's like centered on a five-year tailspin.

But she missed on some of these. Yeah, but they set her up to fail, too. And it was to kind of get back at her for being as kind of bare-knuckled as she was over the years. Ebert, though, Ebert hates a slasher, but he's so horny. So this is a real conundrum for him. And the horndog wins out. Horndog defeats the slasher. Yeah, it would be great if they had done a Siskel and Ebert where it was like Ebert and the Indian. That's pretty...

Cisco dressed up as that guy. Yeah, I'm surprised the drill scene... Ebert's like pure cinema on Indians. Like, love it! Is Byron Mayo the Indian? Oh, God. Today's the most rewatchable scene brought to you by Paramount+. Where a mountain of movies awaits. A mountain of heart-pounding action. Blockbusters like Top Gun Maverick, Mission Impossible Fallout, and Gladiator.

You guys saw Gladiator too. We did. Thanks for the invite. A mountain of jump scares with thrillers like Scream 6, Smile, and A Quiet Place Day 1. We also hung out with Denzel Washington afterwards and he was like, where's Bill? Great. A mountain of fun for the kiddos with family favorites like If, Paw Patrol, The Movie, and Dora and the Lost City of Gold. Discover something new every single week on Paramount+. Well, I have a bunch of rewatchable scenes including...

Would you put Jake walking in on his girlfriend as a watchable scene? I would. The great Barbara Crampton. Legend Barbara Crampton. Her IMDb, she's naked coming out of the gate in the first couple. And then she settles down a little. Salute her. Yeah. Reanimator from beyond. So this guy comes home. He's in a great mood. Yes. In the kitchen. It's like a very well-

scouted out location. It's like your classic kind of long one floor. Middle class existence this guy's carved out for himself by living at his girlfriend's apartment. Yeah. Mid Beverly kind of location. Probably second floor of a three story thing and he's in there. It's like, huh,

laughing and groaning. I wonder what's going on. But he's got a big smile on his face the whole time. I'm going to surprise my wife. I got onions on everything. She's not going to leave him home. I'm in Vampire's Kiss. Come on. And then he's just walking down this long hallway and it's like, and he's like, oh, she's really having a great time in there doing something. Yeah. That never occurs to him. Oh,

Is it possible that he thinks that she's just masturbating? And that he's going to walk in on that? I thought he was like, she's watching like Abbott and Costello or something. Because when he walks in, she's laughing more normally. And then it's like when she gets there. And the kill shot is her kind of being like, I'm going to finish. She's like, can you hold on?

Crucial point here. Well, also she communicates pretty clearly like it's over. Yeah. It's over between us. I'm sorry. Kind of ripped off by Paul Thomas Anderson a little bit with Boogie Nights. Sure. Nina Hartley. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's the same exact, almost like the same angle. Yeah. Fortunately, Craig Wasson did not put a gun in his mouth, you know, unlike little Bill. That's right. Tough reaction for Jake.

but kind of establishes this guy sucks. Yeah. This guy's just going to worm backwards out and then go to Barney's Beanery and lose his edge. Lose his edge. Yeah. Anyway. Never been to Barney's Beanery. I have not been there at 1 p.m. drinking shots of Jack. I'll tell you that. Next one. Jake's first time at the house sitting place where we get to see the house. Okay. So you're skipping over. What am I skipping? Tell me. The method acting class. I want you to cry out.

I can't, I'm a sardine. How am I supposed to... Sardines and a cat are dead. They can't feel, they can't be afraid. Afraid? You're not a goddamn dead sardine. Dig sound, Jake! Cry out!

Okay. I don't love the acting teacher, but that's a good, that's an important scene. You're right. So it's an important scene that I don't like. Like, I don't think that scene works, but it's hugely important to the movie. Yeah. Because Sam identifies him as this weakling. I just don't like the teacher in that one. Yeah. Yes. This guy's trapped. Yes. The LA, here's my house. I gotta, gotta take off for five weeks. Just gotta water these plants.

What is it? CR was dying for something like this to happen when he moved here in 2011. Yeah, I thought it was going to be a world of... Yeah, Miles Tower's got to take off for five weeks. You had this. You were in 1010 Wilshire for like three months. I was only there for the month, but we stayed the full month even after our

I thought it was longer than a month. I think it was only a month, but it was like our apartment was like ready and our landlord was like, it's all set. You can move in. And we were like, we're good. We're living in like a loft apartment above the 110. Did you stay because you were peeping across the street? Yeah. She's got a telescope. And then we get the old, yeah, it's a great show here every night at 9 p.m. The neighbor just does the striptease for no reason.

- See her? - Whoa. Whoa. - Gets better. - What's she doing? - Just keep watching, you'll see. - You wanna get a little closer? - You bet. Oh, God. Uh, she's a little out of focus. Yes! Yes! Yes! Hang on. - Does she do this a lot? - Like clockwork, every night. - Every night?

She just does a little dance and then plays with herself. The 80s were so fucked. That guy, he's not like, what? I would have so many questions. I would be like, wait a second. Yeah. 9 p.m.? Is it like Monday through Thursday? Is it seven days a week? Does she stop to watch Taxi? What's going on? Who's the show for? Is it for you? Yeah.

Is it the same spot? Like, where's her house? I would have had 40 questions. He fortunately only begins explaining those things once Jake gets a look at what's going on. And you could have said anything to him in that moment and he would have accepted it. Because he's enraptured by what he's watching. Because he's an emasculated, cucked boy. Well, he's also like, I've gone from living on some guy's sofa at Hollywood Tower, another great LA location for the movie, to this day.

to living in this lap of luxury, which I guess must be the ongoing, never-ending dream that you can go from nothing to everything overnight here. It's a cool setup. Circle bed, rotating circle bed, telescope with a neighbor who masturbates at nine o'clock every night. He's like, I'm good. I accept. So I just got to water these plants. I don't know. Where did you park in that place?

On the bottom of the street? I assume there was like a driveway at the bottom and then you get in the funicular. The funicular, yeah. I really thought the plants thing was going to come back. Yeah, it's Chekhov's... It's weird. It doesn't really ever... You know, they really made a point about it. Don't let these plants die. Yeah, I was like, oh, he's not going to water the plants. Something will happen. I think that's supposed to be to keep him home.

Like, have him come home some point after 6 p.m. every day so he waters the plants and he's, like, really taking it seriously. The other funny thing about it is that, like, his alcoholism or whatever is mentioned briefly in that Barney's Beanery scene, but then the rest of the movie he pretty much is just getting, like, sloshed. He's just drinking Coors and watching porn. Yeah. He's looking at his watch. It's like, it's 844. 16 minutes.

Better drink a bottle of champagne and get into the rotating bed. Time for the show. Fucking weird housewife across the way. This is a real, like, could not be made in 2024 movie in so many ways. You can't even explain it. Like, there's everything about it is like, what? The plotting is so stupid. Well, and then later when he's leaving and the Indians, like, down...

Kind of stalking and there's the tree in the street. And it's just like, how did all of that stuff happen at the same time? How did they know he was going to leave? Does the Indian know that Jake is going to be able to see him spying? And how does he know that? I don't know. A lot of questions. Yeah.

Well, Jake starts trailing the dancing housewife is our next rewatchable scene. It goes to the Rodeo Collection indoor-outdoor mall. My wife is a huge fan of that mall. She wanted me to mention that in the pod before she stormed off. He's the most obvious worst stalker slash follower probably ever. He doesn't even talk into the payphone. He just picks it up. He's just staring at her while she's talking.

It's actually like he should be probably thrown in jail. He's so creepy. They try. They stop him. Yeah, they stop him. Takes the panties out of the garbage can at one point. Chris, what did you think of Pino DiNaggio's score during this? Beautiful. Okay. Yeah. I know you're a big Pino fan. Well, I was going to say, I know that we have Great Shot Gordo coming up and we have a rewatchable scene here. This is six sequence Steven for Steven Brohm, the director of photography. Just all of the stuff.

of them at the payphone going up the escalators, the cameras roving around, finding one person going over to another. It's so great. Yeah, and nothing's happening, and it's so much fun to watch. Every piece of it is mesmerizing, and literally nothing's happening. She's just walking around a mall. It feels very much like a continuation or a sequel to the museum sequence at the beginning of Dressed to Kill, where it's just like he's just trailing someone, and you don't really totally know why, but you know something is wrong. Something is off. Yeah.

You can't figure out what it's going to be. And there's, so there's like tension, but fascination. And like you said, Debra Shelton is like, she's like a, like, uh, you had to imagine her, you know what I mean? She's like so perfect looking that you're entranced by what you're watching, but it feels unreal. If she showed up at like your dinner party, you'd be like, what's going on? Who looks like this? Uh, we also have claustrophobia in the elevator. That's right. Want to do your face? Yeah.

The claustrophobia music's good too. The... There's too many people in the elevator. I'm in a coffin and I don't like it. We also get a really good creepy shot when she's trying on the underwear and he's getting a good look and he's like...

He's looking around and like really peeking in. He's such a creep in this. Yeah, it's the best is like you watch half this movie and then when the cop shows up, he's just like, you're a gross little peeper, aren't you? Yeah. And as the viewer, you're watching going, eh, some solid points. Do you think De Palma is saying it's not that weird to do this? I think he's saying we do it

It's just this guy is doing an 8% more. Like this guy can't help his obsession. So he's stopping. You know, it's like you may see somebody beautiful at a shopping mall. And they're like, oh, that person just walked by. He's like the extra 8% of like, I'm going to watch her go into Victoria's Secret. See, I disagree. I think his thing is this guy's a creep.

And he's like, all of you want us to keep following this lady around. And you're a creep just like this guy. You're also a creep because you're really enjoying this. I agree with you. He's like flipping it on the viewer, right? Yes, I think so. But ultimately when you get to the bottom of that, it's like if we're all creeps, no one is a creep. I think that's what he's saying. I think you're right. That's his perspective on the world. Purse snatch beach chasing.

Long Beach. Some incredible movie running in this sequence. Realistic, though. Yeah. Where it's like, if you were running, you'd get tired. Well, the hotel is really cool. I like that. All of a sudden, it feels like we're in, like, Italy. Yeah. Or Greece or something, where it's like the decks, each deck comes out further than the last one. Somehow, he's able to just walk up and...

Listen to her phone call. Not a lot of security there. She seems nonplussed by this guy who's now followed her all the way to wherever. Yeah, and she's just like, you've been following me all day. And then the creepy tunnel. Is this your great shot, Gordo? My great shot, Gordo, is the diopter shot of the two of them at the payphone. That was from the valet. Over this weird tunnel where it pans back. Tunnel's awesome. Yeah.

That was cool. And more claustrophobia. Greg Henry starts touchdown celebration hitting him. He's like, Kyle Pitts. He's like throwing the ball up in the air. And then we get the 360 degree makeout scene, which is just ridiculous. Yeah, that's when you're just like, am I having an aneurysm? Like, what's going on? Or is this real? But just pure Hitchcock, though, where like you're in the middle of a Hitchcock movie and you're following the plot and you're like, okay, this is going along. I'm trying to figure out what's going on here. And then something happens and you're like, what?

Yeah. It takes a minute for your brain to figure out if you're in a dream sequence or not. What's he trying to do with the things going in circles? Well, he does the same thing in blowout. He's got the camera angle. What is it about him in circles? It sweeps. It sweeps up the audience. How does the film reel work? Yeah. The murder scene. Controversial. Mm-hmm.

People were like, it's phallic. He's like, it's a drill. I thought it'd be cool. Yeah, he was like, I wanted the drill to be long enough to go through the floor. Legitimately on the list of greatest kills in movie history. And you never see the drill go in. No. It's so, so fucking funny now that he has to plug it in and that he has to keep plugging the drill in. Yeah.

Hold on, there's an outlet over here. Hold on, can you just stay there on the bed? But it's weird because like it's just, this is an inexplicable plot thing. Why he has the drill, why he's going to use the drill. He's up on like the other roof drilling like the satellite. But like he originally starts by strangling her with the cord, which is a callback to dial in for murder, which is like how the

murder happens in that movie. So if he was going to strangle her, why does he have the drill in that space in this elaborate setup that he's created to murder his wife? It's like De Palma wants to just take Hitchcock and just make it super crazy. It's just total satire. It's a great Hitchcock mixtape. She doesn't run. They both get knocked out basically in the bed and then she just wakes up and she's like, I'm going to call 911 with my back to him. Yeah, but I'm out of breath. This would go great. I thought the drill was so he could break into the safe in the house to be a purported robber.

Right, but there's that great bit about how drills like that, you can't break into metal. You can only drill wood with an auger bit like that. You can't actually drill into metal. A cop would know that in five seconds. You can't break into a safe with a drill that looks like that. Stupid robber, but that's why you have it, I guess. Well, De Palma said the drill had to be long for the specific reason that it had to go through the floor.

and then be long enough going through the floor that it would drip blood. I love the blood dripping and the white dog on top of him. It's so fun. Great job by the dog. Yeah. Yeah. Like borderline Brandy Booth dog performance. Also incredibly pivotal in the two biggest scenes of the movie, in Gloria's death and then in the second to last scene. That's right. Next one, the Sid Goldberg show. So Jake comes back home and he's like, I'm going to put in some porn.

You're working on Linda Shaw Enterprises. What are some of those enterprises? We have a film, Deep Ghost. The Maiden Game. The Maiden Game. One Night at a Time. One Night at a Time, yes.

And I believe you have a film opening up this week at the Pussy Flick Theater. Yeah. Deep Ghost is sick. That's really good. It's also so great because it's her and it's her nipple and stuff. And then it finally pans out. And this guy is like this half-nude dude. Looks like he should own a hardware store. And then he goes, what happens when you get hot?

And she goes, oh, it makes me want to come. Well, while you're coming, Linda, why don't we watch this clip? That's just good podcasting. That's a great segue. That's a great throw. So Sid Goldberg's show, he throws to a trailer, which was a huge thing in the early 80s, mid 80s of Holly Does Hollywood, which starts out with the guy coming in and going, five minutes, Miss Body. And she thinks it's like, oh, it's time to do the scene. He's like, no, I mean, we have five minutes.

It's fucking great. De Palma was like, you can tell he studied the porn in the 80s for months and months to get all this right. And then they have the trailer and it's got stuff like, Screw Magazine says Holly Boddy keeps his business where it belongs, in the gutter.

All the quotes are so good. This whole scene is unbelievable. This movie goes to the moon once it gets into the porn industry. The video store, the trailer, everything about it, the set, the casting. You mentioned PTA, but there's so much that is pulled out of this that is put into Boogie Nights. It's outrageous. This part especially with Sid Goldberg, who's played by an actor, by the way.

There wasn't actually a Sid Goldberg. Oh, yeah, I figured. But Linda Shaw was a real actress. There's a couple of porn stars in this. Oh, yeah. Tackling all of them. Tackling them. Pararecking. Next one is the Relax porn video, which is...

It's just incredible. It was incredible in 1984. So what, like the first time you saw it, your react, what did you think was happening? So this was the first time I'd ever seen somebody correctly take like an MTV video and put it in a movie or a TV show in a way that it felt like,

And it was an even better version of it. Right. And then Miami Vice started doing it, but this was right. It was like this body double Miami Vice. Like we're the first two that were like everything you like about MTV. I'm not going to put into your movie. Yeah. It's so, it's such an interesting example of the way that the Palmas brain works. Cause for a lot of people, if you were like, I want to put a band in my movie, you'd think that they would go like, well, what kind of music do I like? What,

What kind of energy do I want the song to have for the sequence? But he's thinking specifically about like the visual filmmaking. And so he watches MTV for like a year. Yeah. Not with the intention to be like, here's my musical taste, but just to be like, what does a music video feel like? How could I take my skills and make it even better? And make it into a porno.

Right. And make it Lord, make it my stuff. And Frankie Goes to Hollywood also was, you know, very sexual as bands. But nobody knew who the fuck they were until really 1984. So he also had the foresight of being like, these guys, something's here. This was one of the biggest

alternative songs at 84. It's a massive song. The perfect song for the sequins. I have the Dracula the Musical Award for Best Imitation of Real Art, which we rarely get to give out. Putting that here. Kid Cudi Pursuit of Happiness Award, Best Needle Drop, no question. Sorry, Pino. If you're going to nitpick, the scene is just too good for a 1984 porn. Yes.

Yeah. I mean, this would have been the greatest, most elaborate porn scene ever filmed. It's so funny because it's like De Palma and PTA can't help themselves. No, they're just going all in. It's like, why is there a Norma Desmond, you know, impersonator at the beginning of that music video sequence from Sunset Boulevard? And then PTA steals the, yo, where's the cum shot? I know. After the same thing as Dirk Diggler's first Amber Wave scene. This whole scene is amazing.

It's so strange, though. I'm curious to hear Craig's... We could go to Craig now. Craig, what did you think when this porn video just dropped in the middle of the movie? Because you barely grew up with MTV. Yeah, not really. That's so crazy. I didn't... Well, while watching the movie, I was like, is this a dream sequence? I didn't quite know what was going on. And then you realize, oh, this is him acting and doing this whole other plot. I don't know, man. I find it to be incredibly entertaining. I think it's...

something that you don't see now. I loved it. I found it to be very, very compelling. Good answer. Compelling and rich. Just when you thought the movie couldn't get any better, now Jake is pretending to be a producer and has a date with Holly where she says,

I do not do animal acts. I do not do S&M or any variations of that particular bet. No water sports either. I will not shave my pussy. No fist fucking. And absolutely no coming in my face. I get $2,000 a day. And I do not work without a contract. And it's like all of Hollywood was like. Slow clap. Slow clap. She delivers it like she's done it 5,000 times. It's her spiel. It's like her spiel.

And he's like, okay, done. Who is your favorite pretending to be a porn producer? Is it Scully or is it George C. Scott from Hardcore? George C. Scott. No question. No question. And do you think Schrader and De Palma were comparing notes? Fist bumps? Yeah. I think De Palma saw the Jim Jism scene and was like, I got to take that one up a notch. They run into Kimberly Hess. You know, Simon Lafarge is casting his next picture.

But that woman might want to firm up a little bit. What does that even mean? That woman is a porn star, right? I think that I think that actress is a porn star, which is why that's such a clever scene. Oh, I didn't. That wasn't in my name is Rebecca Stanley. Wait, the woman who's like, what are you working on? Yeah. Oh, my God. That's funny. The Palma. He's great. Fucking with people. And then you have a lot of physical media starting. No, but if people want to send it to me, I'm willing to receive it. 4K restoration. Send it to CR's house. Yeah.

Jake blows it with Holly for some reason, says he's not a producer, and then she storms out. That leads to the reservoir battle, which is another possible.

Great check order award for how they do the coffin. This might be the most nitpicked moment of Incinema history for me is just like everything about this. Like, I know you go along with it as the fantasy, but the last part is like, you're like, what is happening? Sam's whole plan. I just, I have no idea what's going on. Why did he dig a 30 foot grave at the crest of a reservoir? Right.

That's going to erode at some point, right? Same with just a terrible murderer. We'll get into that later in NitPix. Which era most rewatchable? I think it's probably the casting of him getting cast and then the Frankie goes to Hollywood scene. I think the scene I've rewatched the most is the Frankie goes to Hollywood scene because it was the video as well. So you saw it all the time growing up. I think the follow is probably my favorite scene in the movie.

I like everything from when he sees the porn video all the way through to the first date, I think is just elite. But I like this whole movie. It's really hard to pick. And that's it for today's most rewatchable scene brought to you by Paramount+. From action blockbusters to throwers to favorite for the whole family. Find something new to watch every week. A mountain of movies awaits on Paramount+. I don't think they have One Day at a Time or Deep Ghost.

Plans start at $7.99 a month. Start streaming now. Let's take a break.

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This episode is brought to you by Amazon. The holidays are here, and you know what that means? It's time to get your friends and family the gifts they deserve. Take the stress out of shopping with Amazon's great deals and low prices on a huge range of items from toys to tech and much more. Whoever you're gifting for, Amazon has great prices on everything you need this holiday season. Shop Black Friday week starting November 21st. What's the most 1984 thing about this movie?

I would narrow it down to either putting a music video inside the movie or porn video stores that are like... It's porn video stores for me. ...being like power records almost. Specifically the adult section of a video store. I also love that he goes up to the one clerk who's like, yes, I do have that on multiple formats. Let me take you to it. Yeah, but he's kind of annoyed too. Yeah, but he's like, I also have like the works of like...

Visconti over here but I will take you to go get two Italian master references yeah digging in your back you go CR what's aged the best young Melanie Griffith just looks great she's been our lives now for four decades but it's really fun to see her in this and then something wild too same thing you're like wow very similar characters how much Craig Wasson looks like Bill Maher crossed with that has aged very well yeah

Barney's Beanery. Fun that that's still kicking all these years later. Linda Shaw finally getting her props. It's about time. The Hakeem Olajuwon of 80s porn.

Is that, what is that, two titles? What are you implying there? Oh, just, you know. Incredible grace and length. Hall of Famer, legend, and not discussed as office. Does a retired Linda Shaw have like a big man school? Like where she should. Was she a two-way player? Oh, just, you know, I feel like she should have been up there with the greats. Who was her Patrick Ewing? Annette Haven, who we'll get to later in this movie, but I thought she should have been up there.

Movies where someone walks in on their girlfriend riding a dude. What's the number one for this? I mean, old school is pretty high up there. That's a good one. It's really more of like a, that's really more of like a, you know. It's more of like a role play thing. Has there been a movie where somebody just gets mad and just comes flying in going after the guy? No, actually. Everyone always backs up. Yeah.

Nobody's ever like, I'm grabbing a bat. There's a really famous example of this. I'm trying to remember what it is. Well, Sideways has the peeping on them doing it, but that's not a walk-in. No, but like walking in on your girlfriend. I can't remember what it is. There's a very, very, very famous example of this. This will be a good audience participation thing. Feel free to hit us. DM Sean. This is for CR, for What Stage is the Best.

sober people falling off the wagon ordering multiple drinks from a horrified bartender and saying stuff like, I thought you were a bartender, not a priest. So I guess those guys are friends, but it is incredibly funny when Scully walks in and orders the shot of Jack Daniels and Doug, who's the, like the bartender is just like, I thought she stopped drinking. He's like, what's he doing here at 1 p.m. then? What do you think? He's here for the tuna? Why is he playing tennis then? Do you have any active friends who are bartenders?

Who you like sit down and you're like, oh, Steve's here. Not at this point in my life. Now you have a bar back home. Yeah. Take that out of the equation. I don't own the bar. I mean, I was just like a big patron. Right. A bar you go to. Yes. Bad brother. I go there all the time. But in LA, is there a bar you can walk into and sit down and be like, old CR's back. The usual CR. Yo, CR. How's Liverpool doing? You want a margarita? That'll be $27. Yeah. Um.

The My Neighbor is Stripping music in this? This is what was used in Air, right? Yes. It's that music. De Palma did not like it. I'm coming up later. What do you have for What's Edge the Best? The Peter Meter. What do you think that was that she did? Was it just that dance? I don't know. Was there anything else on top of that? It's just so great that it was her routine. Yeah. But what else is in the routine? It can't just be that dance. I think that's her move. Okay.

Just dancing? Yeah. Okay. Then she does the bend over. Yeah. Back up. Does this some more bend over again. Can you stand and show us? Roll over. Definitely not. I also really love when Sam is like, I've had some creative differences with the Seattle repertory. It's such a bullshit reason. But yeah, those are my two.

Vampire's Kiss became an actual movie with Nicolas Cage. Apparently titled after this movie, this fake movie. Bret Easton Ellis' American Psycho. This was Patrick Bateman's favorite movie. Talked about it over and over. He rented it 37 times on videocassette.

Porn actress Holly Boddy took her stage name from this movie. One of your faves. What a ripple effect. Big career for her. It's incredible. Dakota Johnson's mom is Melanie Griffith. That's a good one. She's the best. She's made some kind of kinky movies. Melanie Griffith's mom is Tippi Hedren, who starred in the Hitchcock movies. An incredible lineage. Any other one that's the best? It honestly is.

I mean, this movie as a standalone being a flop and then becoming literally one of the most influential movies of the 1980s. I think on a generation of filmmakers and on a generation of extremely horny dudes who don't have access to porn. Yeah. Straight up. I also think just self-applying three and a half hours of makeup to become the Indian must be really high up there. I would say the Indian has not aged well. No, no, no.

uh fortune three clap award for most gifable moment probably cr doing his imitation of craig wasson the peter meter routine is very good great shock order would be covered so den at the eves benihana award for scene stealing location is obviously the house it's called the chemisphere located just off mahalan drive in hollywood hills um

Once described by Encyclopedia Britannica as the most modern home built in the world, built in 1960 by architect John Lautner. I have no idea how much it's worth now.

Seems like a pretty weird place to live. I thought it was on sale for like 1.5 in the 2010s. Did you see that the Elliot Gould apartment from Long Goodbye was for sale? I did. But it's actually kind of beat up a little bit, right? This was a couple years ago. The best thing that's ever been for sale, and I have a lot of regrets, is the Boogie Nights house. Is that in Tarzana? No, it's further away, right?

Inland Empire kind of? It was going toward where Zoe used to play soccer. Okay. I forget. I mean, it's like 35 minutes. You seriously thought about it. Well, we thought about could we just, this is when we're on our own, could we just film ringer videos from the Boogie Nights house? And then we realized how stupid that was. I'm ready to shoot, Bill. It's in Covina. Covina. Yeah, yeah. It's West Covina.

The Butch's Girlfriend Award, we click of the film. CR mentioned it earlier. The Reservoir ending is just ridiculous. Yeah. It's like they kind of ran out of time and they're like, ah, did you come up with the ending yet? I didn't. It's when someone on set or the screenwriter or somebody needed to like grab BDP and just be like, hey man, like...

this is going to look cool, but makes no sense. He says that the location scout found this spot, and he was like, what do you think of this spot? And he was like, that's cool. I want to do something there. So they basically bend the movie around finding this reservoir.

That's just cinema ahead of story. That's kind of how he thinks. Yeah. And it also turns... That's where the movie sort of detaches from reality because Jake has the sort of weird dream sequence where he's telling off Ruben, but it has not yet been rehired. Then he like...

climbs out of a seemingly like bottomless grave that this guy has been digging. But it's just a very strange moment. The white flash of the backlight, like for a second there. But some of the staging, especially the dog breaking out of the car and jumping on Sam is like awesome. Yeah. Great little action sequence. Tough beat for the dog. Yeah. I think it's the same dog. I think he said this from the Sam Fuller movie, White Dog, which is about a racist dog, a dog that is trained to be racist. I don't know if you guys have seen that movie, White Dog.

The dog lives. The dog lives. Oh, it does? In my mind, it does. Oh, yeah. It's a beautiful dog. I think Sam died, but the dog swam to safety. But the dog just swam off to freedom. Sam can't swim? What's the story there? Well, he falls quite a distance away. Those reservoirs are tough. Yeah. It's a lot of holes. What stage is the worst? Mention the acting class teacher. Calling the killer the Indian throughout the movie? Probably not getting away with that anymore. Not enough cocaine for me. Mm-hmm.

I needed somebody doing some bumps somewhere, maybe on the Barney's Beanery Bar. It's a very chaste porn environment where nobody seems to be high. The porn set. I just feel like cocaine is everywhere when they're filming this movie, and to pretend it wasn't was a weird choice. Linda Shaw seems a little disassociated during her scene. Yeah, no question. And then Jake not having sex with Holly and just spilling the beans.

Still don't understand that plan. Might have brought it up maybe during coffee the next day. Hey, you know what? Well, that's the whole point of his character, right? He's just a loser. Cuck daddy. Yeah. What do you have, anything? I wish I had a mug with me, but the way that Jake drinks coffee at the farmer's market is like this. He puts the backstage, like the theater guy down and he just goes like this. Like he's drinking soup?

And it's like, this guy needs to get cheated on more. Jake sucks. It's so annoying. There should have been two guys in that bedroom. I think that for as idiosyncratic as it is, and with no disrespect to him, Craig Lawson's whole vibe is probably why this film is not as popular as it possibly could have been. Because that's a very difficult character to spend two hours with.

Like his performance. It's part of it. I think there's also just like a surreal satirical tone. Yeah. It's pretty hard to wrap your head around if you don't already want to be like, look at naked Melanie Griffith or whatever other draws the movie might have. The other thing that's aged worse is just Sam's conspiracy slash plan. Like what was he? He seems like he did the most complicated version of Killing Your Wife.

I have a lot of nitpicks for this later. I think also what's aged the worst is dating this movie to come out the same day as The Terminator. Is that true? And a significant actor in that movie passed on this movie reportedly to do The Terminator. Yeah, we can get it out. Yeah, yeah. Ruffalo Hannah Rubinick. October 26, 1984. Ruffalo Hannah Rubinick Partridge overacting word. They knew and they let it happen. Don't you call me lady. I come in here. I give these things to you. Give me all you got.

I'm going with the police detective who gives Jake shit after the murder. Like, what is that guy? Oh.

No, what? No, you didn't fuck her? No, you didn't keep them as a souvenir? No to both of them. Oh, maybe you're just a harmless panty sniffer. Is that it? Oh, you got a dirty mind. That's a laugh. You peep on her, you follow her, you fuck her, you keep her little panties as a memento, and then you take a seat on a 50-yard line... You're twisting everything around. That's not what happened. I tried to save her.

He's performance is that doesn't it seem though like he is a cop in a Hitchcock movie in from 1942 You're a peeper in my book. That's a pervert and a sex offender It's like okay, thanks for the definition he's it's just a weird way to call bad actors It's so funny because like the guy is just like oh, yes, Scully What's that and like he just tells him the whole plot of yeah? It's so weird

I almost would have had rather had like Leslie Nielsen as the cop and just had somebody who was kind of like secretly funny. Was there a better title for this movie? No way. The CR thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford. Hottest take award.

What do you have, CR? I think if I'm Jake, after my first two days in the porn industry, I just stay. Like, I just think that that's like the growth industry for him. He's never, he's already doing on-camera feature work in pornography after one audition. Like, he could have been the Harrison Ford of 80s porn.

Gotta have to work on the cum shots. Yeah. But I thought that... Pulling out, aiming, just a lot of stuff that... It's an art form. Yeah. And if he has to do a cum shot in any kind of tight space, who knows how the claustrophobia kicks in, but I thought he seemed like a natural and he should have stuck with it. And now he's got the chemisphere to shoot in. Yeah, exactly. All-time porn set. Yeah, very true. My hottest take is...

confirmation that I will never be running for public office, but I think we should be having unsimulated sex in movies. Like, I really think if the actors want to do that, that's going to make the movie more interesting. It's weird that that's still, like, the final frontier. It is the last thing you can't do. Yeah. A couple, like, really... Like, we... Like, Terrifier 3 can happen. Which is way crazier in terms of what is portrayed. But people can't fuck.

Well, think about the Chloe Sevigny piece of this. The brown bunny. Yeah. I mean, that basically ruined her career for a couple years. She's back. She's okay. But that was also 20 plus years ago. But that was considered the most transgressive thing that a famous person could do in a movie pretty much ever. There's the rumors, you know, about like Don't Look Now, for example, that Donald Sutherland and Julie Christie were having sex in that scene and unconfirmed. And there have been some suggestions over the years that there are some scenes where the actors are having sex. I'm sure that's true. They always said that with Alec Baldwin and Kim Basinger.

Did we do a rewatch before where we were basically like... Teen Wolf. Yeah. They said Michael J. Fox with the wolf costume on. Yeah. One of the actors was like, I got to get in on that. Yeah. Yeah. Was unsimulated. But did he have a wolf cock? Unsimulated. Holy shit, Phil. I'm with you on this. Thank you. It is The Last Frontier.

My hottest take is mild. I think this is the best integration of the porn world into a mainstream movie ever.

Just how they do it. It's not the whole movie. We just dip into this for 15 minutes and every beat of it is absolutely perfect, including Sid Goldberg and that whole show. And then we're out. It's like he has mastered that idiom. It's so good. It's a whole separate movie in the movie, which are sometimes my favorite movies where it's like this. We're in this whole world for 15 minutes. I'm like, let's go into this world. This is cool. Boogie Nights?

Boogie Nights Hardcore Hardcore Zack and Miri make a porno Wonderland right Wonderland 8mm 8mm Orgasmo Specific kind of porno The Trey Parker Matt Stone movie What are some other movies that are set in the world of porn There's more Zack and whatever Yeah that one That one was awful Yeah Kevin Smith There's not really not that many There's a couple more that I'm forgetting People vs. Larry Flint Sure It's kind of like that Yeah Casting what ifs

De Palma thought about there's been a lot of like conflicting research about this but he thought about a very famous porn star named Annette Haven to play Holly body and Met her spent a lot of times there gave her stuff to read spent a lot of times He said she'd never been given lines. I sort of sent her acting school. I video taped her doing long interviews some of the things she said were put in a high bodies dialogue and

I ultimately tested her, and the only other girl I wanted to play the part was Melanie Griffith. Melanie blew out of the sky. Then De Palma says, strangely enough, Annette wasn't that sexy, but I used Annette to give us advice while we were shooting the film. Annette Haven also a huge influence on Boogie Nights and appears in Boogie Nights. Yeah, it seems like the directors loved her, and then when they met her, they were like, eh.

I get the impression she was just very smart and a great communicator. Very smart and kind of low energy, which for a movie like this, you needed... One of the great things about Holly Boddy is she's so funny and quirky. Sure. Yeah. So he then offered the role to Linda Hamilton, who turned it down and did Terminator instead. What a fucking... What if that is? Crazy sliding door. Crazy one. Could Melanie Griffith have been in the Terminator? Jesus.

Probably not, but maybe. But yeah, it's like I don't think I would have thought of Linda Hamilton as Sarah Connor before that. Exactly. And when you hear Sarah Connor, you think of T2 and when she's all jacked. But she's not like that in the first Terminator. No, she's like a waitress or something. It's a good sliding doors for Linda Hamilton's career. Because if she's in this movie first, I don't know what happens after that. She might go away. Yeah. Yeah.

I think it all played out correctly. The Jamie Lee Curtis story is like that he basically asked Melanie Griffith to introduce him to Jamie Lee Curtis. Jamie Lee Curtis says no. And Melanie Griffith is like, well, why don't you just let me read for it, right? Yeah, there's her, Carrie Fisher, Tatum O'Neal were like considered. Okay. But who knows?

As we know, the casting would have, as the years pass, they just start throwing names. Everybody in this town was interested in Blaine. Diane Lane looked at it. You just never know. Carrie Fisher has a very different energy from Melanie Griffith, but she does have the holly body attitude. Smart, cynical. That would have been interesting. It's actually kind of the role she should have done after the three Star Wars movies. Something to break the archetype. I think she was like that in real life. I think she had done that if...

like, is she ever in another, in the sequel Star Wars movies? I think the sequels were done though. No, I mean the ones that she did at the end of her life. If she sullies her reputation. I don't know. She made some weird movies after Star Wars. Because I think, I think she should have made movies like this. I think she was a way more interesting actress than the thing she picked. Totally agree. But,

De Palma really wanted Sylvia Christel for the role of Gloria Revelle who played Emmanuel in all those movies. Oh, yeah. She's a pretty big softcore porn actress. Speaking of European erotic thrillers. Unavailable. And then speaking of her in the Golden Globus documentary which I watched for Over the Top. Was loving you and Kyle praising that doc. I love that doc. But they have a whole Sylvia Christel section about how she had like a drinking problem and was like messed up on the set. I don't know if that would work for Gloria. And then they'd

Helen Shaver's dubbing the lines for Deborah Shelton, as we discussed. Real-life porn actors in the movie. The great Linda Shaw, Alexandra Day, Carol Lott, Melissa Scott, Barbara Peckinpah, and Annette Haven. And then Stephen Bauer as a cameo, as a male porn actor. Also, isn't Michael Kearns the guy who's like, I'm not just a stunt cock? Yeah. That guy's actually a porn actor, too. Yeah. He's your favorite porn actor. Yeah. Um...

Hey, we never get to give this one out either. The Clint Howard Award for Director Loves This Guy. Dennis Franz and De Palma, five straight films together. What about Greg Henry? Greg Henry, first of five with De Palma.

I was thinking if I was a famous director, I would 100% do this. I would have like my five or six. You gotta have your guys. Yeah. My guys, my ladies. It would be like Pacino, De Niro, and then Joe House. So many of my favorite directors do this. Preston Sturgis does this where you have your troupe. You have your four or five people who know how to do your stuff. Chris Guest did this. PTA's kind of done this. Absolutely. Scorsese has guys that he goes back to over and over again. Yeah.

Best that guy award. Is Greg Henry that guy or is he Greg Henry? I think that at this point he's probably... He's the number three guy in this movie. If you're a De Palma fan, he's Greg fucking Henry. I think he's Greg Henry. If you don't know De Palma movies, you're like, that's a guy from the thing that I can't... Yeah. What do you think it is about him that De Palma is so attracted to? That he looks like John Tesh? He's...

I think he's... You're cooking today. I like this. He almost always plays a very untrustworthy guy. Yeah. You know, a guy who's like really kind of slimy. And I think De Palma needs those guys in his movies. He was the kind of guy when I was growing up would have been the guy on Charlie's Angels who got involved with Cheryl Ladd in the first half hour, but then it turned out he was the bad guy. Like he had that... There was just specific actors who just got pigeonholed as those guys. Yeah.

My vote for best that guy is Larry Flash Jenkins, who was in season three of The White Shadow. He was in Fletch as the guy with George Wendt who was involved in the drugs. He's the guy. He's up on the black guy. Yeah. Yeah. He's just in a lot of these movies. And he plays Dennis Franz's like assistant director. Right. Yeah. Dion Waiters award. I mean, Barbara Crampton is another one. That's who I have. That guy. Crampton. Crampton's look like just kills Scully. But she's not a that guy.

No, for Dion Waiters. For Dion, okay. Let me give you all the nominees. Dennis Fran's eligible. Okay. Frankie from Frankie Goes to Hollywood. Yeah. Linda Shaw, the body double in the end credits, or my choice for winner, porn video host Sid Goldberg. Goldberg's a good shout. I like Goldberg. I did not know that man's name. You made it sound like he was like a legend in the industry. I had never heard of him. I did not make it sound like that. You're like, that's Sid Goldberg. I have the box set.

And I believe you have a film opening this week at the Pussy Flick Theater. Sid Goldberg. If they're deleted scenes of Sid Goldberg, send them my way, please. Can you imagine me like, you know, like, hey, can I get you a coffee? It's like, shh, Goldberg's on. I got to find out what's opening at the Pussy Flick. They used to have, remember when I told you guys about WHT?

That was like the HBO and how there were movies that were on and they would be first run movies. They used to have at 11 o'clock, they used to have a porn talk show hosted by, I think it was Gloria Leonard, maybe it was her name. Okay. And she would just have guests on and they would have, it was basically like Johnny Carson with porn and the people would come on.

And they would talk about their movie. They would play a clip, which was heavily edited because they weren't allowed to show actual porn. But I think that's what they were ripping off with these. Yeah, there was a public access show like this in New York. There's another one, yeah. With a blonde porn actress who affected a kind of like Carson of porn. I can't remember her name, but it was also a call-in show. Oh, so you could be like, hey. Yeah, and she would take calls like that. This is Sean from Long Island. Yeah.

I can't remember her name, but she's a legend too. Well, then Playboy Channel said Nightcalls, which was the 90s version of that. Recasting couch director City. What about Kathleen Turner as Gloria? Perfect time in her career. You don't have to dub her voice. The camera could just watch her walking around. Would have worked well.

I guess there's the body heat kind of tie-in, which is maybe... No, but she's like man with two brains romancing the stones. I was going to say romancing the stone is like this year, right? Do you think that if you had whatever happened with this actress, do you think if you had a different actress, this character would have more to do and have more to say? No. I think she just needs to look beautiful, which she does, but then you need the voice, which obviously she didn't have. Tony Romo or Chris Collinsworth or someone else for the director's commentary.

I got for Doris. Okay. I see you, Mr. Scully, or should I say Mr. Cuck, coming off your nightmare season of acute panic attacks and finding your girlfriend Carol riding another man. You've put in the work. You peeped on a woman, stole her underwear, and watched her get murdered by her own husband dressed as a deformed Native American.

Now you're here on the set of a Holly Bonny porno being escorted to a fuck session by 80s new romantic legends Frankie Goes to Hollywood. Salute to you, Jake. And what do you think, Richard Jefferson? I'm running Ruko back. Can a 40-inch electric drill completely obliterate Gloria Revelle's torso? You bet!

I texted with Ruko, by the way. He's fired up. Did you text Doris? Ruko texted me. He's like, this is great. This is a huge win for Ruko. Yeah, I was like, we need you to get to where Bang is. Light pole, got it! Some of your best work. Half-asserted research. LA locations, Tale of the Pup, Beverly Center. Was the Beverly Center in this or just the parking part of Beverly Center?

I don't know. I don't remember seeing the Beverly Center. I don't know. It's allegedly in there. Barney's Beanery, Farmer's Market, Rodeo Collection, Hollywood Tower. Crossroads is there? Tower Records in the Chemosphere. Is that actually Tower? It doesn't look like the Tower to me. It just looks like a video store exterior. I think there were a couple Tower Records out here, though. Okay. Yeah. I would probably go with the Chemosphere. As the most LA location. Yeah.

The set for the Frankie Goes to Hollywood sequence was used the next year for the nightclub scene in Fright Night. I just watched it yesterday. That's so funny. That scene is amazing, too. I love Fright Night. That's a rewatchable to me. That's such a great movie. I actually like the remake of that, too. They're both good. Some of the artsy-fartsy writing about this movie said how voyeurism provides an illusory imaginative form of control

which Jake had lost because he was emasculated and cucked. Now you have to watch to gain your control back. Did they use the word cucked in that piece of literary criticism? No, they did not. I threw that in there. No, that was Doris Burke. That was Doris the vet. Jake's car, 1967 Chevrolet Camaro RS convertible. Were you ever a jump into the car guy? No.

Have you ever tried that? No, it's super dangerous. I wish I could do it. I mean, I don't have an convertible right now, but forever. You should just jump into a stranger's convertible. Some guy going back from the Dodgers parade. Just jump in.

De Palma is upset that there's a rumor about that he had women coming up to his house for months and months masturbating for him as he tried to find Holly Boddy. That was a persistent rumor after the film. How did he express his disappointment? He said, this rumor went on for decades. It was ridiculous. The only girl who really came up to my house was Annette Haven. When we worked on the material together,

And Melanie, who worked with Annette to work on the masturbating at the window routine that I basically worked on in my house on the hill. It's just work. I would go outside with a camera and let Melanie just go through her routine that Annette has taught her. This rumor went on for decades. It's a rumor that never dies.

I'm still not ruling it out. Maybe three, four more people went up there. Who knows? It's a great way to get an interesting reputation. To be like, God, this rumor's been following me around. Women want to come up to my apartment and masturbate. It's like Giannis being like, why do you guys think I want to be traded to Miami? Stop bringing it up. Definitely not to Miami. What's wrong with Houston? Not that I'd want to go there. Why do you guys keep reporting I don't like Dame?

The videotape of Melanie Griffith's bedroom jewelry masturbation test audition was destroyed at her request because De Palma had kept it. She's like, hey, can you get rid of that now? Or so she thinks when we discover it in the CR archives. Here it is. Apex Mountain. Craig Wasson. Death of fucking Luba Lutely. Oh my God. Yeah. This is like...

First line of his obituary. Yeah. With all due respect. His grandkids are like, Grandpa, you were in Body Double with Brian De Palma? Yeah. He's 70 years old. Is he still acting? Apparently he's a big audiobook narrator. Oh. Yeah. Oh, that's cool. Maybe we'll have to work with him. Good pivot. Melanie Griffith, Apex Mountain. I'm going to say Working Girl. I agree. De Palma, no.

That's probably Scarface. It's in the blowout to Scarface. It's Untouchables, right? Untouchables. Oh, Untouchables, maybe. I feel like Scarface was a bigger movie. Was it? I thought so. Fuck the fucking Diaz brothers. Carrie, too, is obviously huge. The fucking Diaz brothers? I think it's got to be Scarface because it gets him the three-picture deal that lets him make body double. That's good. When we do Scarface, that's when the feed is over. Used to be Boogie Night. What do you mean?

No, I'm just saying. I used to say it was boogie nights. Now it's Scarface. Yeah. Because we're going to method pod? Scarface will be, that'll be seven hours. Giant mountain of cocaine right here on the table. Huge cocaine right there. But we'll be like Brian De Palma, like, I'm not on cocaine. I'm just interested in these worlds. Only one person masturbated for me. I can't.

Stop putting the rumor out that I'm podcasting while high on cocaine. 80s porn and movies, definitely. Greg Henry? What is it for him?

I think it's this. I think it's this. This is the most critical role he's had in a movie. Frankie Goes to Hollywood, definitely. I mean, their song's coming out. I think they're pretty big. But this movie, they're on SNL like the start of the next season. The album's out. It's somewhere in 84. Okay. This is it. Their song, The Power of Love, just played a big part in that movie All of Us Strangers last year. And it was the first time I'd heard a Frankie Goes to Hollywood song that wasn't relaxed in like 20 years. I remember that. Just putting that out there. Have you seen All of Us Strangers? No.

Who's in that one? Paul Meskel. Andrew Scott. I have a really good bit about that movie that I'll share with you off mic. Save it for the Scarface pod. Yeah. I almost did for my hottest take that Frankie Goes to Hollywood and Queen were a lot closer than people want to admit. In terms of the quality of their work? Musically or popularity? In terms of the ceiling of how good they were.

I was workshopping and I couldn't quite get there. Is that complimentary to Frankie Goes to Hollywood or derogatory about Queen? It's the latter. Well, just that I think Relax is as good as any Queen song. I'm not a huge fan of either, but I think that there are some Queens, like,

I think Queen is incredible, so I don't know what you're talking about. Well, that's why I didn't do it. That's why I workshopped it and decided not to go with it. Yeah. I mean, now, cocaine is something that they have in common, I think. I think there was a lot of cocaine involved there. I was listening to a late-period Queen album the other day, and you could hear the cocaine in Freddie Mercury's throat. It's crazy. Telescopes? Telescopes in a movie? Yeah, telescopes rotating beds? Yeah.

Rotating beds is a good one. Jeez. Cheesy acting class scenes. Barry? Yeah. Austin Powers rotating bed? Good one. Oh, yeah. Body double scenes that are outgoing about how it's a body double scene. Yes. Outgoing? What did she say? Like, my breasts are very tender? Yeah. Okay.

She also looks different than the, like her skin color is different than the other girl too. I feel like that's part of the joke, right? Crazy cool LA houses used as a character in a movie. What's been better than this? I think he's better. Greenberg?

Greenberg? Who the fuck's seen Greenberg? What do you mean? What are you talking about? Who the fuck's seen Greenberg? It came and went in five minutes. That's a liked movie. What do you mean? Greenberg? Greenberg heads visit Bill Simmons. Are they good houses? No, the house that he stays in. He's like house-sitting. That's the whole premise of Greenberg. Oh.

cruiser Hanks we're thinking Hanks fuck guys wait no I Greenberg no bomb back movie Ben Stiller it's fine cruiser Hanks it's Hanks both one is the Indian one is is Jake

Who plays who? Oh, a tie? Yeah. So Hanks plays Sam Bouchard slash the Indian? Yeah. Or I could see Cruz being like... Oh, sorry. Cruz plays it. Yeah. Yeah. I think Cruz has to be Sam in the Indian. Because you could see Cruz being like, hey, small world, small town. We keep popping up at these auditions together. You know? Yeah. The like slick smarmy thing Cruz could do. Hanks is definitely the Craig Wasson. Yeah. I agree. I think he would have done that. I agree. So who wins that one then, Craig? Hanks, right? Hanks is the lead? Yeah.

Racehorse Rock Band Wrestler Fantasy Team Name. Holly Does Hollywood as a racehorse? I don't know. Water sports? Water sports. That's right. We'll take one more break and then we got to pick a lot of nets.

Peking Nets.

Jake is so dumb that he can't figure out his girlfriend's fucking another guy in her room for 75 seconds, but yet he can piece together this elaborate murder plot. I just wanted to start there. Yeah, I mean, that whole opening sequence where Jake...

Should at least be picking up on the vibes that he might not be asked back to the set after yeah the shot and yet He's like I think I'll just get hot dogs and just go back to my cool girlfriend. It's like Carolyn Jake It's tough when your character is a total dipshit. Yeah, then like yeah any of the plot holes you're like, oh well He's a loser right, but then he somehow figures it out in five seconds. What do you have because I have a lot of nitpicks I

I mean, the biggest one is just like is Sam's plan and just how elaborate it requires. Tons of makeup, multiple cars, multiple like he has the one house that Gloria is living in. He has he has the Cinesphere or whatever, the roundhouse that he's also able to work out of. So it's just like it just seems there was a much straighter line to killing your wife.

I wrote, Saint Bouchard, rich guy pretending he's an actor to set up a murder. Should I start doing this? Should I just start going to acting classes and looking for my prey? Yeah, that's right. And I'll get makeup. You really, you lifted the veil there. Thanks. That was good. I think there's like, you could break down each step though, because, so he wants to have a witness, right?

So he wants someone to see him kill his wife. But think it's somebody else. It has to be a good enough costume that they think it's someone else. This is...

one of the dumbest ideas I've ever heard of. He is going to be witnessed killing someone and the first time you see him as the Indian, you're like, that's Greg Henry. The minute you see him, you're like, that's clearly the guy we just saw. So even in the unreality of the movie, it's the dumbest plan of all time. Yeah. He would have been better off telling his wife that he also owned the chemisphere, telling her to come up for a drink and then just shoving her down the stairs and be like, she fell. Yeah, the perpendicular didn't work. Yeah. Yeah.

So, Alan, he was saying how Alan, the cool house owner, who's letting Sam House sit there, but he had to leave for five weeks and he had to find somebody. He's leaving tomorrow. So, if he didn't find anyone, nobody's watering the plants. I mean, that's the whole premise of the thing. They go to Barney's. Is he waiting for... I guess he already knows Jake's looking for a place because he hears him in the first audition being like, oh, you got anything right away? How about this? Was he the one fucking his girlfriend? I wondered about that for a second, but probably not. Yeah.

Where is Gloria when Holly Boddy is just dancing in her living room every night? Great question. Bedroom at night? Shopping for underwear? I have no idea. Great question. Maybe she's at the beach house. Could you figure out how to have somebody in your bedroom at 9 p.m. every night? Be like, Eileen, could you go in the TV room from 9 to 9.30? Well, it's just also like...

Yeah, yeah. It's absurd. Yeah. And she's there the next morning. So where the fuck was she at 9 o'clock? That's a good point. Well, maybe she has a social life. Who's Gloria call? Like from the payphone when she's like, I have to see you. He hit me again. Like who's she talking to? Presumably someone she's having an affair with, which is maybe one of the reasons why he's killing her. Yeah. Need a little more details on that. Jake kept Gloria's underpants in his pocket for 10 hours. He went home.

kept him in there. I mean, he basically wears one outfit for the entire movie. He does. He's dressed like a substitute teacher. Yeah, he is. So, Alexander Ravel's scheme of killing his wife and pretending someone else did it

but also pretending to be Sam Bouchard, the barely working actor. Wouldn't they have written about this in a newspaper? Yeah. Wouldn't there have been a picture of her and her husband? And wouldn't anybody have been like, that's the guy from our acting class? Jacob maybe seen his picture. Like, wasn't there a risk of Jake seeing the picture of the husband? Yeah. Yes.

Alright, this is a big one. Is getting into porn in 1984, was it really that easy? You just get to be the lead actor in a Holly Boddy movie in one second. Yeah, it's like you just walk into an audition and... Even in hardcore, like Jim Jism had to kind of work for getting in the scene. Yeah, he put in the hours. He was in the minor leagues for a while. I'm going to go the other way. I think that you could do it.

You just walk in. But they're making so much porn back then. If you have the tools necessary. Well, because he's got a familiarity with the audition process, how to call a production office probably, right? So he's got a little bit of a foot inside the door. And maybe there's a lot of intimidation out there. Maybe people weren't like, oh, yeah, I could just step right into this. I think if you're equipped properly. Well, this is a huge unanswerable question. Was Jake packing?

I mean, everything about him tells us no. And yet, he feels very comfortable in this environment. Yeah. How is Sam's makeup as the Indian this good?

Or was it? Who's applying it? That's the thing. Is he doing the makeup? It's like a paper mache head. They said to do Greg Henry's makeup. It took three and a half hours every day. This guy's just fucking whipping it on. He's like, I'm the Indian now. Here's my power drill. De Palma is such a freak. This is such a stupid story. This movie is so amazing. Why did Sam pick Holly Boddy as the dancer who was...

Probably the most famous porn star at the time. Why not pick like porn star number four? I think it's because of her remarkable resemblance to his wife. Isn't that part of it? I mean, you know, I forgot to mention rewatchable scene. The most rewatchable scene is the first time you see her dancing to say, is that Deborah Shelton or is that Melanie Griffith? Any other nitpicks? No. Why does Sam keep bringing that dog with him everywhere?

He was a huge dog fan. Just leave that dog at home. I know. What are you doing? Love dogs. That's your demise.

Yeah. He thought he had it, though, with Kill. He's like, Kill! Sequel, prequel, Prestige TV, all black cast are untouchable. I'm all in on Prestige TV as a remake. Oh, interesting. I think it would be really good. Oh, interesting. Putting it in 2025 and the fucking OnlyFans era. Yeah, that's great. I think I would like to have the sequel of Holly and Jake branching into

Like opening Holly Body Productions? Yeah. Oh, interesting. You know, and he's cosplaying as the producer, but also like at home is like this normal self-effacing guy. I love it. He gets, they hire Tracy Lords and there's like this new actress, Tracy. Yeah.

She has all her ID. It's great. And then Tracy Lords brings down Holly Body Productions and Jake. That's a good idea. Yeah. Should pursue that. De Palma. De Palma's still working. Not really, but yeah, I wish he was. Prestige TV, I think, would be really good. Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Trejo, Sam Jackson? No. JT Walsh, Byron Mayo, Harling Mays, Eva Laffey, Ramon Raymond.

Long legs or Philip Baker Hall? What do you got, C-Rod? I definitely think it's just Byron Mayo, and I can't even decide what scene Byron would talk in. He's Sid Goldberg. Yeah, he's basically Sid. He's in the hot tub with them. He's just like, what's next in the pussy flick? Yeah.

Are you sure Nell shouldn't be holly body? Oh my god. Doing the dance? Do you think it would long legs have been a good AD on the porn set? There's no cum shots! I don't see the cum. We have to do it again.

Oh, man. I can't look at you guys with my eyes. What's wrong?

Just want to ask her who gets it. It has to be Melanie Griffith. Best supporting actress? I had Steven Age Perum, but sure, yeah. Okay. Oh, that's good. What about Brian De Palma? No, yeah. Who's he competing against in 84? It's like out of Africa? I think it is. Yeah. I think that's what it is. Good shit, Sidney Pollack. Yeah, I mean, out of Africa versus body double? It's body double 100 times out of 100. It's not even close. Where do you guys stand on the killing fields?

Pretty into it. I like it. It's a really weird pivot in this conversation. Well, it's also 84. I think that was nominated there too. That's Roland Joffe. I really like that movie. Probably unanswerable questions. What would have happened if Tracy Lourdes accidentally ended up in this movie? Because they had to destroy all the movies she was in. Because they were casting from around the porn world. Was she making movies in 84? I think that's when it started. She easily could have been one of the people...

What would they have done at that point? Would all the body double cassettes have been pulled? I wonder if the controls around this stuff were more intense because it was a Hollywood production. Yeah, maybe. Oh, yeah, that's a good point. You know, I don't know, but I assume, especially because the studio was like, there's no way you're casting Annette Haven, for example. I have no idea why the rumor that Tracy Lourdes was in this movie came about. I looked at all her ID. It's a really fascinating question, though, about what would have happened to it. Yeah. I always wondered what would have happened if she had been just in a movie.

how they would have handled that. Oh, like even if she was just like in 48 hours or something? I guess if she's not having sex, maybe that's... I think that's been the issue. I mean, she goes on to be in movies. But if she was in the porn scene in that one, they would have had to like get rid of the scene. Yeah. She's in a John Waters movie like three years later. What's the worst position to walk in on your girlfriend fucking another guy in a movie? The worst position that she's in? Yeah. Because they usually have the girl on top when they do this. But I think doggy style would be the most humiliating.

So I thought it was so unprepared for that. So Goldberg, huh? I just worked so hard in my career, you know? Well, everyone always goes to the same position. I'm just trying to make the other choices.

Yeah, definitely. We can move on. Is it possible... Is it possible, Jake... Is it possible he imagined this whole movie? I think it would be, for me, it would be doggy style, but getting fucked by long legs. Oh my god. Is this your boyfriend? He is short! He is short!

Is it possible Jake imagined this whole movie? Yeah. I think so. It's possible it's happening in his claustrophobia. Because he has his job back at the end. He gets his job back twice, weirdly. And doesn't that feel like when you're in a dream and you're like, this is really happening. This is really happening. Then you wake up and you're like, of course that wasn't happening. Why was I in this sort of real experience that actually you can't make real?

Because the tip-offs would be the 360-degree kiss on the beach. Just that whole scene is just ridiculous. And the ending, but like, I mean, what's the... The reservoir is ridiculous. You think about the acting teaching scene when he's just like, you shouldn't be fucking with his head. Like, what gives you the right to be fucking with his head? What if he fucked Jake up by like taking him back to this memory of like him not being able to scream out? And it's basically a...

projection yeah i always read it as it starts at the very first scene when he's having the claustrophobia while he's shooting the movie um but i don't know it'd be funny if dopama like gave some dopama interview and he's like i can't believe people thought like he didn't imagine the whole movie of course he did yeah that's the first scene and he never did say anything like that though right no no that's double feature choice i can give you just to kill

I could also just give you Working Girl and you could do the Melanie Griffith before and after she became a massive star. Or I could give you an early Hitchcock. Yeah, I was going to do Vertigo. I think it's Vertigo. Okay. I just saw Vertigo on a big screen a couple months ago and they're very similar, these two movies. How was it? Beautiful. Majestic. It's one of the best movies ever. The Andy and Red Zawadney Award for what happened the next day. Can we walk through Holly Boddy's next few years? Sure. In the mid-80s glory years of porn and cocaine? Yeah.

I think she burns bright and then burns out. She feels like it. She's running headlong into the Jenna Jameson era, which is a different era of porn. But that's like 10 years later. Not that many, though. Like by the time you get to the late 80s, you're headed into a much more commercialized version of porn. So does she make it to 89? She's got to bridge the eras, basically.

I mean, I don't really think that the movie that Jake gets back into, Vampire's Kiss, is like a springboard to mainstream success. So I imagine that... He's going full porn. Yeah. That's my guess. Maybe directing? Yeah. Behind the scenes. Because we don't know if he's... I do think there's a path where Holly Boddy and Jake do have a company together. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kind of like the ringer. But why would Holly Boddy want to end up with Jake? Because Jake sucks. That's why I can't be like, she's really entertaining his bullshit the entire time. Yeah. Maybe she sees him as a portal to the legitimate world. Something about him she likes. What piece of memorabilia would you want from this movie other than the telescope? Probably the drill. The prosthetic mask. The Indian mask.

How about a Holly Does Hollywood video cassette? Sure. Fake one. I don't know if they ever made that, but that would be a good one. Okay. I think the telescope would be pretty cool because you could actually use it. Deborah Shelton's panties. Stuff in your pocket for 10 hours. I should have had them hanging out of my pocket this entire podcast. Oh, I forgot these were in here. Fucking weirdo. Coach Finstock or Best Life Lesson?

Don't trust anyone you barely know who asks you to house sit? Yeah, that's a good one. I've met you twice. If it's too good to be true, it probably is. Don't follow strangers. For long periods of time. To Long Beach. Who won the movie? De Palma. I think Melanie Griffith wins the movie. I think Melanie Griffith wins it. She becomes a major star after this. De Palma is still bummed out that this movie didn't do well. The Something Wild Working Girl follow-up is Dynamite.

But I do think this is a very important De Palma movie. Because one of the reasons that makes him him is he did a couple of these that were just like, what the fuck was going on with that movie? There's been writing about this, and I think he's even commented on this idea that he's not making movies...

specifically for a contemporary audience, they're made to be timeless. And I do think that there is a quality to this that feels that way. I like that he almost always follows up a major pure commercial hit with an idiosyncratic indulgence. You know, and that like for every time you make a Mission Impossible or an Untouchables or Carlitos Way,

There's a raising cane right around the corner. There's always a like, just don't forget, I'm Brian De Palma. Yeah. You like Raising Cane? I do. I do. Can never get there. It's very similar to this movie. Do you like Carlito's Way? I really don't like it that much. No, I do. It's really tough. It's a five-star masterpiece. It's an awesome movie. Sean Penn as his defense attorney? I'll give it another whirl. It's just... I'm stunned, honestly. It's one of Pacino's absolute best. I get it. Did you read the Pacino memoir?

Is it out? Yeah, it's out. I think we should all read it. Should we do like a 20-minute YouTube? Yeah. Our favorite bit? Apparently there's some crazy stories in it of him just being deeply weird. He said he never tried cocaine. Yeah. Well, there's one of the stories. I don't know where all these rumors come from that I did cocaine. Yeah.

Craig, what'd you think of Body Double? I just want to say before this, for the record, I don't know who Nell is and I don't want to know and I'm enjoying it more because I don't know. I'm having a good time living in this Nell ignorance. There was a review about this movie about Body Double that I really liked. It's from the New York Times. The guy writes, De Palma again goes too far, which is the reason to see it. And I was like,

That's exactly how I feel. Yeah. I love it. If you're going to do it and you have the cachet to do it, then do it. And it's why I like Babylon, you know? Yeah. Take a swing. I don't think this movie is saying that much. I don't think this movie is that deep, but it's just like a personal movie, a cynical movie made by a talented director about a murder mystery in Hollywood in the porn industry and-

It looks beautiful. Like the, the, the sweeping camera movements that like, it looks great. It was when we talked about blowout and you were like, which is also the Palma. And you were like, I love when like a list directors make do like B level genres. Yeah. Yeah. I think this falls under that. And, and it's so fun to watch. It's my favorite thing. What'd you think of Craig Watson?

I actually liked him more than you guys did. I thought he was really well cast. I thought he was good in the movie. Other than the claustrophobic face is a disaster. That was a mess. Do you think he would feel differently about it if he had like four or five good, like Scorsese cast him in his next movie and he was a known quantity? He became a guy? Yeah. Like he became like Dreyfuss? Yeah. Yeah.

Like, could he have been in Reservoir Dogs as one of the guys? Probably not. That's so funny. But like, it's easy to write him off. Could he have been the third guy in Jaws? Too young, probably. Could he have been Dreyfuss' character, you mean? That's what I mean. I'm trying to think of like a mid-late 80s movie that he would have worked well in.

I mean, I just don't know. If he was in like Midnight Run. Yeah, sure. If he was Grodin in Midnight Run. Sure, if he was Grodin. Right. Nah. Can't get there. I liked him though. I'm glad you liked it, Craig. Is it just because his name is Craig? Maybe. Not a lot of Craigs. Not a lot of Craigs. Craig T. Nelson, Craig Watson. Craig Robinson. Yeah. I think I need to watch more De Palma movies. Yeah. Oh, yeah. They're so delightful. It's one of the best journeys you can go on as a movie fan. Probably start with Carrie and just start going Carrie.

Yeah. Just go through. Yeah. Have you seen Scarface? No.

Oh, man. I know. I can't believe I haven't seen Scarface. I would do all of them. I would do Sisters, Phantom of the Paradise. Like, all the 70s movies and all the 80s movies are a blast. Have we done his two best movies or no? Like, we did Blowout. You guys did Untouchables. And Untouchables, right. We've done Mission Impossible. We've done Mission Impossible. Yeah, we've done four, I think, right? We've done this and Blowout. Yeah, that's four. But we haven't done Scarface. We haven't done Dress to Kill. Or Carrie. Oh, yeah, Dress to Kill. Dress to Kill could be in the Could This Movie Be Made month. Yeah. Maybe it's De Palma month. It's still, Dress to Kill is still good, though.

I think Blowout still is his best movie. I love Blowout. I agree. All right. Produced by Craig Horlbeck. Thanks to CR. Thanks to Sean. Don't forget, you can watch this on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well. It's a lot of facial expressions on that. They might put some sort of rating on this podcast. We'll see you next week in the Rewatch List.