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This is The Political Scene, and I'm David Remnick. There are 435 voting members of the House of Representatives. And in recent years, the House has been very closely divided between Democrats and Republicans, divided and profoundly unfocused and undisciplined. With its committee blowups and steps of the Capitol demagogic rants, it's a realm of dark and chaotic comedy.
Now, the exception in this picture has always been Nancy Pelosi. She spent eight years as the Speaker of the House and many more as the minority leader of the Democrats. Her stewardship of consequential legislation, major bills like the Affordable Care Act and the Inflation Reduction Act, it's legendary. She was not only the first woman to lead either chamber of Congress, but also the most effective congressional leader of modern times, maybe since LBJ.
And she's also one of the most vilified leaders, for sure. She's been the target of endless threats from the right and a vicious assault inside her own home that injured her husband severely two years ago. Last month, whether she'll admit it or not, Nancy Pelosi seemed to be the power broker with both the political craft and the emotional intelligence to finally push Joe Biden to the conclusion that it was time for a new Democratic standard-bearer.
The title of Pelosi's new book is short and it's apt, The Art of Power. Your book opens with a really powerful chapter about the hideous assault on your husband. So I have to ask you, how is Paul Pelosi doing? How's his health? He's good. He's about 80% there. Getting hit on the head is a...
It has ramifications. It continues. But thank you for asking. He's such a good sport. He does all that he's supposed to do in terms of therapies and stuff. But he's not very political at all. So every now and then I'll say, how did this happen? But thank you for asking. It's a horrible thing. Physical damage is one thing. The trauma of it all for our children, our grandchildren. It's really sad. It's happening in our home.
you know, in our home. So, but thank you for asking. There were rooms that you wouldn't go into for a while.
Yeah, no. It's sort of creepy for me to be in our bedroom because he went in there, you know, went into our bedroom. But the garden room where he came in, where he banged his way in, we wouldn't go there for a long, long time. Where you kind of have, you watch games on TV. Yes, our family room. Hang out. Yeah, the family room. There was the elevator. This house is like, you know, San Francisco, how like that. And so... It's really steep. The steep steps. And so, but he was...
Not in good shape, but he would not get on that elevator. So even despite the damage done or that he's recovering from, he would use the stairs instead of that elevator just to avoid it? Just to avoid it, yeah. Yeah. Okay.
To tell you the truth, David, we have never, ever had this conversation. We've never had the conversation about what happened that night. What I know about it is what was testified in court as in the public domain. But he's never – we've never had the conversation. Because he can't remember anything? Because he just doesn't want to talk about it? Well, the doctor said he doesn't want him to revisit it. But apart from that, I think he knows it would be very painful to me to hear what he went through.
Guys after me, and he gets my husband, really. Right, they came looking for you in the way they came looking for you on January 6th. Where's Nancy? Same thing, same thing, same thing. But it's not as if this has gone away, which shocked me, maybe more than anything, other than having to also, you quote Donald Trump,
Trump Jr., you know, saying, I've got my Paul Pelosi Halloween costume ready and all of Trump's own insults. That was shocking, but I already knew it. But you're still getting assaults on the House, severed pigs' heads and blood splattered on the garage door. Some of that procedure, in fact, what they said in court was that the investigation, I don't know if the FBI or whoever it was, said that
The pig's head was the most recurring theme in the assaulter's social media. That pig's head really motivated him. But that was a different group. A lot of what's happened since then in the middle of the night and all that is about –
Gaza and the rest, yeah. So that's a separate issue. Those people are not even from my district mostly who come. Genocide Joe, all of that. Hopefully some of that will go away now. Barbara Walter was a guest on some time ago. We interviewed her. She's written a book about violence in American politics and her fear of things like a civil war happening.
What is going on in this country in 2024 that's different than November 1963 or the summer of 68? Is this a more violent time in our politics? What is going on in our country is Donald Trump. You lay it all at his feet. Absolutely. I'm not saying that he invented some of the negativism, but he exploited it. He normalized it.
He's horrible in every way, great in being a great snake oil salesman. So he sells a bill of goods and people buy it. It's a sad thing. So we have in the country, you have to say that 30 percent will never vote Democratic. I mean they're discriminators. Some would say haters but I'm not using that word. Or the word deplorables you don't want to use. Oh, no, no. No, I'm not talking about them.
These people are just hopeless. Then there are people— 30% of the country you see as hopeless. No, they're Republicans. Oh, I see. Okay. And then you have people who have legitimate concerns, and they are concerned about their own and their children's future in terms of their concern. Afraid. Globalization. They saw the factory down the road go overseas. Innovation. Innovation.
I'm a truck driver, but now they're going to have driverless trucks. Immigration. Immigration probably has the least to do with their economic insecurity. In fact, immigration would grow our economy, but they don't see it that way. And then they are afraid women, people of color, LGBTQ, taking over roles, you know, this and that. But they are not necessarily haters or anything. They're just concerned. And I said way back in 2016 when
I hate to use his name. We'll say Donald Trump. I think it's who you're referring to. Donald Trump. Donald Trump. I think the race was divided between – electorate was divided between those who saw a future for themselves and their family and the new economies and those who did not. And that's what Joe Biden deserves so much credit for because with his agenda, which was really –
I mean, he has just been a remarkable president with everything he did. The rescue package and all that is, shots in arms, money in pockets, children back to school safely, people back to work, child tax credit, 50% of the children in poverty out of poverty. This goes on, all of these things.
Infrastructure, the bipartisan infrastructure, 13 Republicans in that, 13. But nonetheless, 13 because the left didn't want to come, so I had to go get Republicans to pass the bill because, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know what I mean? So, and I can say that because I'm a San Francisco left wing, okay? So I can say these things about the family here, all right? Mm-hmm.
I think we can argue and agree. One more. IRA. Okay. $370 billion to save the planet. Remarkable. Totally remarkable. And any other time would be a great argument for a second term for a president. I have to ask you, and I know this is a complicated thing to answer. You're watching that debate, that first debate between Joe Biden and Donald Trump.
What are you seeing and what are you feeling? Well, first let me just say why this election is so important is because that is all at risk. Okay, so my goal is he will never step foot in the White House again. Winning an election is a decision. You make a decision to win and then you make every decision in favor of winning. All I wanted was a better campaign because I did not see
that would beat him. Lies, misrepresentation, people think the economy is better under him. So that night I was startled because I had never seen that. People say, you must have seen it. No, I never saw that. In other words, you'd never seen Joe Biden come up short like that? Never. No, in fact, earlier in the day when I was with the members of
They were like, oh, how's it going to be? Trump will be so awful. I said, don't worry about it. Joe Biden's State of the Union is going to show up. It's going to be great. He had it down. He was going to do it. He felt great. And I had confidence in him. I didn't think it wouldn't be good. But anyway, and then that happened. And I think everybody was stunned. It was stunning. You did something amazing.
That I'll never forget. And there was a lot of noise, a lot of calls for Joe Biden to step down as a candidate. I was one of many who wrote a column saying that. Many politicians. You did something on July 10th. You came on Morning Joe. And you said this.
It's up to the president if he is going to run. This is, by the way, this is when Joe Biden has already said, I'm staying in. It's up to the president if he is going to run. We're all encouraging him to make that decision because time is running short. He's beloved, he's respected, and people want him to make that decision. And then you went on to say, I want him to do whatever he decides to do, and that's the way it is. Whatever he decides, we go with. Now...
I'm guessing you've read Machiavelli in your life, and even more than that. You're just saying that because I'm Italian. Yeah, yeah. I got it. But that way of putting things was to give it a phrase from a certain book of yours, The Art of Power, and the language of power that certain things are said and certain things are left unsaid. How much do you think through that?
what you're going to say on a show like that because you knew damn well what you were doing. When they asked that question... You knew the question was coming. I was hoping not. I was talking my way through my five minutes and get out of there. No such luck. Yeah. No, and I... Here's the thing. I've known Joe Biden for over 40 years since I was chair of the California Democratic Party. And...
I love him so much. I think he's been really a fantastic president of the United States. So I really wanted him to make a decision of a better campaign because they were not facing the fact of what was happening. And I take some responsibility for the House. We couldn't see it go down the drain because Trump was going to be president and then he was going to take the House. Imagine that.
Imagine how that would be. We don't have to imagine. We saw. The only thing he did when he had the Congress and the White House was to give a tax break that had 83% of benefits going to the top 1%, $2 trillion to the national debt. And that's all they did. And they wanted to get elected. But you were talking to one person. You were talking to Joe Biden in a certain kind of language. How would you—
describe that language. It was almost the way a mother or a father who is particularly good at being a parent tells a child who's already made a bad decision, I'm waiting for you to make a decision of a different sort.
You're looking at me and waiting for this moment to pass. Yeah. But I'm trying to think of why you're even asking it because you know I'm not going to answer it in the way that you want. I didn't plan to do that on the show. It was improvised. In fact, if I did, I probably would have worn a different suit or something because I didn't look too professional. But seriously, just a little background. I've never been that impressed with his political operation.
Biden's operation. Yeah, I'm not. I mean, it just happened. They won the White House. Bravo. So my concern was this ain't happening and we have to make a decision for this to happen. And the president has to make the decision for that to happen. So people were calling. I never called one person. I kept true to my word. Any conversation I had with it,
was just going to be with him. I never made one call to him. They said I was burning up the lines. I was talking to Chuck. I didn't talk to Chuck at all. Chuck Schumer. Chuck at all. We didn't talk at all. And I never called one person, but people were calling me saying that there was a challenge there. So there had to be a change in the leadership of the campaign or what would come next.
Let me just say, I won't say necessarily I knew what I was doing at that time. I knew what I was doing in the whole thing, not just that show. And what was that? That Donald Trump would never set foot in the White House again. Jennifer Palmieri, who's now, I think, now on the Kamala Harris campaign, having worked for every Democrat that I can think of in the last 15 years. Jennifer Palmieri was on the program recently talking about Joe Biden's decision to
your role in it, and so on. And she said this, men won't say hard things. They just won't. And that surprised me to hear, and I think she was paying you a compliment as well, that you said a hard thing, but with craft, with emotional intelligence and with political craft. Well, the thing is that we had to win.
Everything was at stake. His whole legacy was at stake. So one thing, if I had to tell you one thing, would be I did want to remove all doubt as to what I was saying.
And then what happened was that people came to me and said, you gave me space, you gave me space. I said, well, my whole point then was don't do anything while NATO is here. After NATO, then, you know, say whatever you're going to say, but don't do it while NATO is here. I'm talking with Nancy Pelosi. We'll continue in a moment on the New Yorker Radio Hour.
Every single aspect of a conflict...
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This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. And I've been speaking with Representative Nancy Pelosi of California. When Pelosi won a special election to the House of Representatives in 1987, there were just 23 women in that chamber, a whopping 5%. Pelosi went on to lead the Democrats in the House for 20 years. A remarkable run.
Now, earlier in our conversation, Pelosi tried to downplay her role in convincing President Biden to end his campaign for reelection. But I can't say she entirely convinced me. Clearly, she played a pivotal role. And unlike politicians who have held on to power, cling to power, even when they're visibly faltering, and you can think of examples in both parties, Pelosi stepped down as Democratic leader in 2023. Hakeem Jeffries was then elected to the position.
I'll continue my conversation now with Nancy Pelosi. Time is...
unmistakable and undoubtable. And you decided to step down as speaker, a job that you showed every evidence of not only being great at, but loving. How hard is it to pass the torch? What led to your decision? Oh, it wasn't hard for me at all. For 20 years, 20 years I was speaker or leader. Four terms as speaker. They say she was speaker twice. No, four terms as speaker and 12 years as leader. And
And every day for 20 years, I was responsible for what was said on the floor by the Democrats by and large. Everybody wants titles. Everybody wants this. They want the bill to be theirs. So it's a competitive arena. And I thrived in it. And it was lovely. Every day, especially closer to the end, say last third, I had to raise a million dollars a day.
How many phone calls is that? Average. Average million dollars a day. But describe for listeners what that means to raise a million bucks a day just as sheer effort and concentration. What does it require of you? Well, it requires some time. Of course, you have to be in a different location from the capital. But what has helped was the small donors. If you get out there and you're fighting and you're putting out a –
That day is an easier day because they just, they respond to that. Action begets action. You don't do it by just high, you know. You have to show a plan. We are going to win. This is how we're going to win. No, no wasted time, no underutilized resources, and that means you, and no money.
regrets the day after the election. We are recruiting the finest candidates. You have to have a product, and the product is also what you're doing. You know, we're fighting for this, we're fighting for that. So it's not all in the conversation. But you get tired of the fight? Is that what happened in your own life? No, I didn't get tired of it. I just...
It was time to move on. It wasn't, I mean, the only kindness, it wasn't a regret, but the only thing I worried about was I had assembled the greatest staff in the history of the Congress of the United States. Fabulous. Every person exemplary in what their knowledge was of their subject, their strategic thinking, all the rest, everything. And I thought, oh, my God, the staff is going to be dismantled. But many of them are with the new leadership, so that gives me hope.
Let's talk about the product, the new product. As you referred to it, Kamala Harris is now the Democratic standard bearer. We're speaking on a day where she just picked a running mate, Governor Walz of Minnesota, who even beforehand you spoke very highly of and even, I think, endorsed. No, I didn't endorse anybody. I love them all. You love them all. Yeah. Why is Walz, though, a better choice, do you think, than, say, Shapiro of Pennsylvania? Yeah.
Well, I think you'd have to ask her. But here's the thing. People say, oh, who helps win? But it's more a question of who helps lead and serve. And that's a chemistry. That's a dynamic with the presidential candidate. Who can she best work with? Now, I love Josh Huffman.
Josh is a friend. I love him. I think he's spectacular. But I also think what this did was show us Buttigieg, Brashear, Markelly, Gretchen, the governor of Michigan, although she pulled herself out of it. I mean, real talent. Any one of them could run for president, much less be vice president. And there are many others, too, who might have gotten into the fray, had the
had Kamala not wrapped it up so fast because we thought we were hoping that there would be a more open opportunity. And there was, but people didn't step in. She was very adroit. Anyway, I said, you put them in a hat to pick out a name, you'll have a winner. They're all great. That came down to Josh and Tim. I don't know if it did, but that's what the public perception seems to be because, as I said, I wasn't involved. It cracked me up that some of the people were opposing that.
and they were supporting him. And I was like, leave him alone. Let him be himself. I served with this man. He's not a
Governor Walsh, you mean. Yeah. You know, they were kind of embracing him because he wasn't Josh. I said, what are you talking about? This is a middle-of-the-road guy. He's there for rural people. He's a veteran. He's a heartland of America guy. He's not any lefty. But you're embracing him because he's not Josh, and you're tattooing yourself to him. And why was that? For some reason, I think they thought it was going to pull—
Kamala to the left. But she doesn't need that. She doesn't need that. Right now we need to show that we can unify America and to do so in a way that, as has said, she's saying to the heartland of America, you're not flyover territory for us. We're all on the same team. Donald Trump seems to have changed since Kamala Harris got into the race. I don't mean because he's been transformed as a human being because of his
the assassination attempt, which of course was horrible. But suddenly he seems to be flailing and not know quite what to make of this new race. In your book, you talk about informed opinions and serious doubts about Donald Trump's mental health. What did you learn that we don't know from watching him publicly?
Well, I haven't seen him. I haven't been in his company for a long time. Since he was president, yeah. But he is— You don't hang out. Oh, my God. What a horrible thought. The president's a master of projection. Hillary's crooked. He's crooked. It's not about Hillary. It's about him. I'm crazy. He's crazy. Someone says lazy. He's lazy. I mean, he's always projecting, you know, exactly—
Particularly qualities that he has, you're saying. You're saying he projects qualities that he has onto others. Yes. Yeah, I mean, he knows. He's an imposter. He knows he should be president of the United States. Obama went into office and his big issue, which you were so instrumental in, was health care, or at least one of a few. For Kamala Harris, what do you think that will be? Well, she will make that definition. But from what we've seen,
unfolding, you know that freedom is a big issue for it. And one of the elements of freedom is a woman's right to choose. You know, last election, they said we were going to lose 30 or 40 seats. I was putting a woman's right to choose right out there. The midterms. The midterms. They were going to lose 40 or 40 seats. I said, this is so wrong. These
well-paid people in Washington and New York. They don't know what they're talking about. We're on the ground in these states. We're making a distinction. You're the Republican. You voted against gun violence protection. You voted against that. You voted against the woman's right to choose. You voted against the climate issues. Then they said, she is going to owe us all an apology for putting women's right to choose out there. It's so in the rearview mirror. It's over.
I said, you don't even know what you're talking about. This is a kitchen table issue. It's an economic issue, the size, timing, and if you're going to have a family. It's a freedom issue.
And it's a matter of respect for women. This is a big deal issue. So what do we lose? Five seats in New York. We'll win those back. We'll win some of them back, but we'll win the rest of the country. We'll take back the house. But the big humma-hummas, they knew that we were going to lose 30 or 40 seats, and we knew we were not. People understand how it affects them.
Did you know we had a vote on the floor? Of course, Roe v. Wade, they'll never vote for that. Okay, and I respect that. I come from an Italian Catholic family. They're not way up where I am on some of these issues. They wouldn't vote against somebody because they were pro-choice, but nonetheless. So we put a bill on the floor that said, Kathy Manning from North Carolina, women have a right to contraception.
People said to me, you're giving them a way out. They're going to be able to vote for that and look sane. Eight Republicans voted for it. 195 Republicans voted against it. Which tells you what? We have to get our message out there better.
Because this is insanity. They don't even know what's going on in their own home. And by the way, some women voted for it wrong too. It tells you it's insanity or it tells you that the country is way more divided than we'd like to believe? No, that's not true. They're not divided on whether women have a right to contraception. Come on. I would have thought otherwise, but here, look at the world. They're not a reflection of this. They're a reflection of the...
You're saying it's a reflection of cultishness, the same part of— Yes. Yeah. You think? Well, do you think if Trump is defeated— Do you think if they go in their district, their people are saying, please don't give me a right to contraception? No, I hear you. But do you think that if Trump is defeated in November— Yeah. That Trumpism will be— When? When? Fair enough. Okay. Say it any way you want, but when? Okay. Anyway, just so you say when. Then Trumpism—
will disintegrate and the fever will break and suddenly the Republican Party will be the Republican Party of yore? No, I don't know. Believe it or not, I have Republican friends in power or they were in power and they say to me, you must defeat them in the general because we can't defeat them in the primary. But when you defeat them in the general, then we can
Then we can go back to our debate. You're saying you have Republican colleagues who are rooting for you to win. No colleagues. I didn't say colleagues. They're all enablers. They're terrible. Every single one of them is an enabler of a Republican cult. That's every one of them. I don't know. They go home and they masquerade as moderate, but they ain't. They aren't. Not in any circumstances.
But anyway— So these are Republicans that you know in life. I'm talking about people in politics. Right. Okay. In D.C. and the rest who shall remain nameless, who say you have to be—we can't beat them in the primary. You must defeat them in the general. Then we'll come back and fight you and we'll have our normal debate on the issues, which is the democratic way, the way of a democracy. So—
So that's what we'll do. We'll defeat them in this next election. I want to close by talking about your book for a second. The name of the book is The Art of Power. And it is a kind of autobiography on a certain number of issues and a kind of political autobiography in your role in these essential issues. And it reminded me in some ways of reading about Lyndon Johnson in the Senate in Robert Carroll's book, the book The Master of the Senate.
Do you think these political skills are thin on the ground? Where are the young Nancy Pelosi's who have these skills? Not the ideals necessarily. You probably share your ideals with any number of people. But what about the chops? They're very talented people there with legislative skills. And they're in the committees and they're working. And people don't appreciate that. You know, they give Congress a little more.
At least on our side. I don't – the other side, we had a journal week early in the summer because they couldn't bring a bill to the floor because they couldn't get a majority on their side. But is there a Nancy Pelosi in his or her 40s? I think they're probably better. I always say to Hakeem and the others, my success is that you will all do better than I did.
because that's what I consider the success of it all. But if I'm a, shall we say, freak, it's because I have no—and there are people like this there—I have no other agenda. I don't want to run for Senate, governor. I don't want to be appointed to anything. This is it. So when I talk about an issue—
It's about the issue. It's about you and your district, our district, our Congress. It's about that. So it's not, well, I want to run for president one day, so I want to have it on here that I asked you to do this. So you're not declaring your future candidacy. So how would you encourage somebody? I have freedom. And that's one of the reasons why people thought that I should be the one on Joe because the love I have for him, he just gave me the Presidential Medal of Freedom not two months ago.
Do you think you'll have, your relationship will be there? I hope so. I pray so. I cry so. Do you worry about it? I lose sleep on it. You think he's angry at you? You think he's angry at you? I don't know. We haven't had a conversation yet.
What kind of state do you think he's in? What kind of state do you think he's in now? I think he's in a good state. It must be hard. Yeah, but I think he's in a good state. I mean, he did a remarkable thing bringing home these prisoners. Oh, my God. That was so masterful. You've read, of course, all the complications, this country, that country, this, that, the other thing, and all the persuasion that it took and all the confidence they had in him that it would work. But part of the psychology of this whole thing
Shakespearean drama was that everybody told him in 2016, don't run. You've just suffered this terrible loss of your son. Hillary is running. We're going to win. Step aside, which he did. And to the surprise of everybody, he steps forward and beats Donald Trump in 2020 heroically and has to feel a certain sense of self-worth.
when everybody was telling me otherwise in 16. And now the party comes to him in 2024 and says, step aside. It has to be deeply painful. And he did it. I don't know if the party did. There were people who wanted him to stay. Yeah. But he did it.
How do you think he goes forward? I mean, the country is the most important thing here, but I can't help but be interested in the personal drama and how you view it. I can't speak to that because I haven't seen him, but my understanding is that he's good. And the thing is, is that his legacy will go right down the drain if that what's-his-name ever got in the White House. Nancy Pelosi, I have a final question for you. Let's say a young woman comes to you in her 20s, very young.
intelligent, has all the choices in the world with what to do with her life, and looks at politics today and thinks it looks ugly, it looks deeply frustrating, dispiriting in every way, and I have all these other things I can do in life. Why would you encourage that person to run for Congress or public office? Okay. First of all, just to the tail end of your question, we don't want people without options.
Every time they say to me, well, I could, and I could, well, good, because that's why we want you. We don't want you because you don't have anything else to do. This is your best job. No. No, here's the thing. What I say to young women, and I talk to them all the time, for decades—
There is nothing more wholesome to the political or governmental process than increased participation of women. That's why when I came, there were 12 Democratic women. There are 94 now. I still want more. But it had to change. Twelve out of 435? Eleven Republicans out of 435? Come on. So the country needs you.
There's nobody in the history of the world like you. Know the power of you, the individuality of you, the authenticity of you. Know your why. Why do you want to do this? And my why was from housewife to housemember to housespeaker was one in five children in America living in poverty.
As a mother of five and six years and seven days, mother of five, I couldn't stand that thought in this greatest country in the history of the world that one in five children go to sleep hungry or lives in poverty. So that's my why. So if you don't know your why, this is not for the faint of heart. This is tough. And if you know your why, the slings and arrows are worth it. If you don't know your why, don't even do this. Stay home. Well, do something else because this is rough.
As I said, when you get in that arena, you've got to be ready to take a punch. And it's all been worth it for you. You take a punch. I'm willing to throw a punch for the children. Throw a punch for the children. Is it worth it to me? There's a Presbyterian African minister in Sierra Leone, I think it was, and he nailed this prayer to the wall. He said, if it's a prayer, what?
When one day I go happily to meet my creator, he will say to me, show me your wounds. And if I have no wounds, he will say it was nothing worth fighting for. You got to be proud of your wounds. Nancy Pelosi, thank you so much. You're welcome. Nancy Pelosi represents California's 11th congressional district, including much of San Francisco. My name is Madeline Barron. I'm a journalist for The New Yorker. I...
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