The Angry Trump (with Chris Christie)
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Hey, pull up a chair. It's Hacks on Tap with David Axelrod, Robert Gibbs, and Mike Murphy. I've never believed that Donald Trump was a foregone conclusion as our nominee in this race. And I knew that the case had to be made against him. Now, there are people in our party who are resigned to the fact that he was going to be the nominee, resigned with the fact that

The case didn't even need to be made because it would be a waste of time. They sat on the sidelines and all they did was voice their opposition in private, behind closed doors, quietly, so no one could hear. And that's not leadership, everybody. That's cowardice.

So that Mike Murphy was Governor Chris Christie of New Jersey withdrawing from the presidential race in January. One of the I think maybe the best speech any candidate has made and the most truthful in in this campaign. And but it was, as I said, in service of withdrawing and.

The consolation prize for him is that he is actually joining us today. I know. It's more like a penalty. Yeah. This is what happens. Well, it was the most honest speech of the election by a mile. And I think all of us who are –

Not on Team Trump, but very, very proud of the governor and appreciate his courage for running and running the way he did. Not easy to do in the current Vichy Republican Party, but you got to know who the good and bad guys are and you got to say it. So we are honored today to be joined by our friend Governor Chris Christie.

Well, thank you. If I had known that this was the result of dropping out, I might have stayed in. It's the only thing worse. If I'd known that, but okay. You know, we live with the decisions we make. I'm happy to be with you guys today. Good to talk to you both. Excellent. Excellent. We're going to talk a little bit about cowardice later in this podcast, but Gov, you got a

You got to concede now that it is sort of a foregone conclusion that Donald Trump is going to be the nominee of the Republican Party. Fair enough? Yep. He will be the nominee. God help us all. There are two big things coming up. One that's going on even as we speak, closing arguments in his trial in New York City. You were critical of that indictment when it came down. What is your sense of the...

impact, if any, of this has of a guilty verdict in that case, in this so-called hush money case, or if he gets a hung jury, unlikely, I guess, that he'd get a full acquittal, but a hung jury, which he will treat as an acquittal. Look, I think either result is going to have an impact.

I don't think it will have a decisive impact, but I think it will have an impact. Part of the problem is that we all follow this stuff day to day in some detail. Most voters don't. And they kind of know there's a trial going on, but they're not really sure exactly which one it is and what it's about. I think if he were to be found guilty,

Or there were to be a hung jury. Either result, I think you're right. I think an acquittal is unlikely. I think it will have an impact on voters. And I think it will have a negative impact on Trump if he's convicted. And I think it will have a positive impact on him if there's a hung jury, which most of the public will see as the equivalent of an acquittal.

And so I think it will have an impact on it because people are not following it closely. And for many of them, the first thing they're going to hear about this is the verdict. Yeah, I kind of agree with that. The other thing, and it's like a subtext deal, but I think over time it kind of rots away like rust. He looks like an old loser, particularly if he's convicted. He's not in a hockey arena bellowing his one-liners at an adoring crowd. He's there like a caged animal.

And I think that does eat away because his shtick, as we all know, is strong man. Well, he's not looking so strong. So I think it's at the margins, but I agree. And if it's hung jury, he will scream vindicated at the top of his lungs. And that'll give him a little help. You know, Mike, I have to say.

I don't know if he gets a hung jury, if he's going to look like he's weak. If he gets a hung jury, he's going to look like he's strong. Well, no, that's my point. It's the conviction is the way to say it. Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things, Gov, that he has—

that has actually in a perverse way worked for him. We know that it helped these indictments helped in the Republican primary. You lived through that and watched him get stronger as the tribal impulses took hold in defending him. But in the, there was always this theory that in the general election, it would hurt him. But so far his, in a very perverse way, his ability to resist the,

you know, and defy all of this. I think at least to his supporters and maybe beyond his supporters, B speaks, you know, to them strength. He's standing up to the system. You know, he's am I wrong about that? I think it's mostly to supporters, David. I think for the people who are still undecided, I don't think they see it as a strength.

I do think it's a little more like what Mike said, that he looks a little bit like a caged animal standing behind those metal barricades. And he has not been very good on the stump. I mean, you know, the fact is that this is affecting him. And look, I've known him for 22 years. I could tell a lot just by watching him. This has affected him in a significant way.

And if he were to be convicted, it will not only affect some people's view of him, but it also will affect him himself. I've told this story a few times publicly, but I think it bears repeating.

Back in, it was either 2004, 2005, I was US Attorney. I was out to dinner with Trump and I had just gotten a conviction of the former New Jersey State Senate President on bribery and extortion charges. And Trump knew this guy fairly well because of his involvement in the casino industry here. And during dinner, he said to me, great job, amazing, you did a great thing. And this guy was going to jail for nearly two years and

Trump said to me, so where does he go now? And I said, well, he goes to prison. And he goes, well, yeah, yeah, but like where do they really put him? Like, I mean, not going to put a guy like that in prison, like regular prison. And I said, yes, the Bureau of Prisons will decide where he goes and he's going. And he reached over and grabbed my arm, my forearm. And he said to me, Chris, I could never, ever do that. I could never go to jail.

They tell you when to get up in the morning and when to go to bed. They tell you what you wear. They tell you when you can eat and what you can eat. He said, I could never do that. What you put in your hair. Yeah, I'd love to see him in a prison haircut. I mean, yeah, that would be the highlight of my week. And so like for him, this is his work. He's got two nightmares, Donald Trump being broke and being in jail.

And these things and the reality of that, especially when he knows in New York there's nothing you can do about it if there is a conviction, even if he were to become president again. He couldn't pardon himself because it's a state case, that all this will impact him. So I think that we need to look at this even more broadly. It's not just what impact it'll have on voters. That's important.

But it's one impact it will have on him because he will get angrier and angrier and more paranoid. And I don't think that makes him an attractive candidate to the very narrow swath of voters that he has to try to win in order to get the presidency back. You know, Mike, this is what we've been talking about, that he's he's not a very good candidate when his grievances are all his own.

And this will just drive him further there. Yeah, like he's going out and finding criminals to agree with. You know, he's like out defending, you know, the crazy lava stream has been like diverted a little. And so now he's going to be the hero of the criminal world.

And, you know, the psychology of it, he has such a button on his forehead. I think the governor's right. It's going to affect his performance going forward, which, you know, when I hear from a lot of the sellout Republicans who are like, well, I never liked the guy, you know, when the revolution comes, I'll be there. But right now I'm putting in for a job is that, boy, I wish he was the 16 Trump. This Trump isn't very good.

You know, because he's all tangled up in his own crazy grievances. And this does nothing but push that stuff farther into the front of his head, which I agree, net over time will have an effect. Gov, you were a prosecutor, as you pointed out, and you have been paying attention, I imagine, to this case. Do you think they've made their case? Tough case, David. It's a tough case. You know, look, legally, I think the hardest part of this is

proving that Trump did what he did in the furtherance of another crime. And that's always been the tough part. It's turning this from a misdemeanor into a felony. The misdemeanor is proven.

I mean, there's no doubt that they faked the records in order to cover up the payment to Stormy Daniels. You see the checks signed by Trump that have on their retainer agreement when there is darn illegal services being provided. You have the Allen Weisselberg document that shows him plussing up

what he was owed. You don't plus up legal fees. If you plus up legal fees by 100%, I might still be in practice. You don't get to do that. And so you look at those things, they've proven that part. The real question becomes, will the jury say that Trump did that in furtherance of committing

What essentially is campaign finance violations by not claiming that as a contribution in kind to his own campaign. So I think it's hard. That's why I was critical of the indictment in the beginning, because I thought it was, it's one of those Jerry rigged indictments, you know, where you can get there, but man, you got to hit every point right now.

I do think the documents and the way I would be summing up on this case, if I were the prosecution, would be to say, let me just tell you a few things off the top. Michael Cohen, scumbag. Stormy Daniels, awful human being. David Pecker, scumbag. These are awful people. But let me make one thing clear to you. The government did not pick these people. Donald Trump did. These are Donald Trump's people.

These are the people he hung out with, he consorted with, he gave trusting positions to, he was intimate with. These are his choices. So if you don't like these witnesses, believe me, neither do we. But the facts are the facts. And I think you have to drain that emotion out of it for the jury and just say, look, first off, if you don't like these people, we're with you. We don't like them either. But this is the scum that Trump has surrounded himself with. And two, the documents speak for themselves.

And I think if they sum up that way, they've got a chance at a conviction. But would I be shocked by a hung jury? I would not. Yeah, just takes one. Murphy, this is one of the million reasons why, of course, Donald Trump, having said that he wants to take the stand, could never take the stand because he would have to explain why Michael Cohen was his right-hand man for 10 years and why he needed a fixer.

And he'd have to talk about the relationships and all of that stuff. No, I was hoping his ego would force him to do it because he is totally not in his interest. But I think I think they've got him, you know, tied up with battleship chains on that. And fear of prison, Mike.

Fear of prison, you know, tends to set the mind up fairly well with a lot of these guys. That's why you see most folks who are indicted don't wind up testifying because they figure, you know, it's only going to get worse because I'm guilty. That's it. Totally right. I can feel all our Cook County listeners in the political business stiffening up a little bit. By the way, gentlemen, I recommend the Yankton prison camp.

in South Dakota because I filmed a spot there once. It's an old college. And I thought if I ever went to college, as they say, that would be the place. But no, I agree. I think he's fear driven. He's pissed off. And but he might get lucky here. Yeah, that's the weird thing about Trump for a force of mostly evil. He is incredibly lucky. And I'm worried that Trump luck is going to hit again on this one. Let's stipulate what you say that that this this is working on his head.

And it's going to throw him off his game. We have in a month the first presidential debate. You helped prepare him, Governor, for debates in the past to the degree I guess you can help prepare him.

Donald Trump for debates. What do you think? How is this going to work this time? What do you who do you expect to show up there? Yeah. What's your take? I don't think there's anyone left but the angry Trump. You know, it's 16 when we prepared him. You know, the way it worked in 16 was for the first debate, he would not take any debate prep at all. And then he went to that first debate against Hillary Clinton. They got smoked. And

I got a call from him two days after the debate saying, would you please take over debate prep and prepare me, and I promise I'll listen. And he did listen. I mean, if you remember, especially in light of the Access Hollywood stuff coming out two days before the debate, etc., I thought his performance in debate two was significantly better.

And more nuanced, especially for Trump than any debate performance. Those two words don't usually go together, Trump and nuance, but I'll give you the point, you know, and then in 20 in 20, he was back to free debate one, 2016 Trump.

He was president, and David, you and I talked about this before, the challenge of preparing any incumbent president for debates. They all have different reasons why they don't think they should prepare, but they don't want to. And Trump clearly did not want to in 2020. We did a lot of sessions with him, regardless of that. But nonetheless, he came out as angry Donald Trump, as you all recall, and

in debate one against Joe Biden. And I think, you know, that was probably the last nail in the coffin for his 2020 effort was that debate, you know, in 2020. So I look, I think, I doubt he's doing much prep at all.

This time, he's got a very insular group. Nobody who will tell him the truth and who will smack him around the debate prep, which, as you know, candidates need to have done to them. And in the end, I again, I think Biden, the challenge for Biden in this debate, I think.

is to just ignore Trump. Yeah, and I could bait it into the worst version of Trump. And don't even raise what a jerk he's being. Like, don't bring it up. You know, just, like, ignore it, listen to the question, answer the question, and then wait. And this is going to be the tough part for Biden because he's too old and he's not that good to begin with. But wait for the one moment where he really goes over the top.

And then you don't address Trump, but you just look into the camera and say, I want to talk to the American people. Is this really what you want? Yeah. Resist the temptation to jab and wait for your moment. But let me flip this a little and continue on this because this is fascinating. You've had a great history in presidential debates. What would you tell Biden?

What would his game plan be other than wait for the big moment when you can really hurt him, let him set himself up? Be the adult in the room. Yeah. Look, you're not appealing to Trump voters. You're not going to get Trump voters. And the people who are already Biden voters are going to be fine no matter what you do, because most of that, I think, is motivated by dislike for Trump. What you're looking for are those people in the middle who say,

And by the middle, I mean not necessarily the philosophical middle, but they're in between both candidates and they don't know what to do. And in this instance, I think they don't like either one of them and they don't know what to do. Those people you want to appeal to them, I think by saying to them, listen, I know that I haven't accomplished everything I promised you I'd accomplished four years ago. But I will tell you what I have done and go through the things that he really believes he's accomplished.

regardless of ideology, and say, and this guy over here is just getting back into the presidency to execute his vendettas and his anger. And it's not for you. He doesn't understand you. He's not one of you. Mike, I don't think there's, you know, with a guy like Biden, I think at this point, you don't want to put too much in his head.

Because if you put too much in his head— Yeah, that's my instinct. Simple, simple. Don't try to be the brilliant Disraeli, I'll think him on your feet guy. No. Because in Biden's head, he thinks he's that guy. And the other thing is, Biden, and we harp on this all the time, stop grabbing him by the lapels, meaning the audience, and telling him they're wrong about the economy and yelling a few statistics at him. You know, feel the pain. No. I mean, it's—Mike, I think you're absolutely right. And I think the simple—

If I were prepping Joe Biden for this debate, I'd say to him, all you want to do is to have, and let's agree on the two or three points that you think are the strongest points of your presidency. And let's just harp on them over and over and over again and act as if you are in a conversation with whoever the moderator is and not debating Donald Trump.

Let Trump look like the angry guy standing at the fence yelling at his neighbor. And you'd be the guy on your lawnmower with your AirPods in, driving around and every once in a while just wave as you go by and not even pay any attention because there's two reasons why. One, you want to emphasize how crazy Trump is. And two, you're Biden. You don't want to be trying to do too much because you will screw it up.

And what people want to see from Biden is that he is not a doddering old fool. Right. And so the best way to do that is don't talk too much. I'd only add to that an offer. What do they get next time? That's the other thing missing from Biden. OK, let's take a break right here for a word from our sponsor. And we'll be right back.

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which is like this guy is consumed by his past and vengeance, you know, earnestly trying to work on stuff that is important for your future. And there's a real, but I think there has to be a contrast. You know, he wants to do away with the Affordable Care Act that's going to cost millions of people, including people with preexisting, you know, you've got, you've got, you know, I have fought to strengthen it. You'd lead with that. And then you'd say there's a contrast here.

And I'd go through the things that I know are going to redound to my, uh, benefit. But it's funny that you use the lawnmower, uh, reference because, uh, I was, uh, I, I, someone showed me a focus group a few months ago and there was a guy in there who was on the fence, uh,

On the race had voted for Trump last time, wasn't sure this time when they asked why. So because living with Donald Trump is like having a neighbor who is using his leaf blower 24 seven says you never get any sleep.

And allowing Trump to demonstrate that and remind people in that debate is important. But his goal is going to be to try and rattle Biden, right? His case is that Biden isn't up to it. Oh, absolutely. And the question is, does Biden take the bait? He'll bait him on the economy. Things are terrible under you, knowing Biden likes to say it's actually the fourth best Thanksgiving in the last 20 years on prices of turkeys and just pull him into that swamp where he's so disconnected from the voters.

But it's not even I mean, that is a problem because every president wants to defend their record. And that is the trap that presidents get drawn.

into. But it's also just having a guy, if I were prepping Biden, I would make sure whoever's playing Trump is heckling him throughout the entire thing to try and throw him off his game. And remember, last time Biden did get frustrated and tell him to shut up. And, you know, I don't know how that played then, but there is a kind of Clint Eastwood chasing, you know, Gran Torino chasing kids off the lawn quality to that. That doesn't help

You know, you don't want to mistake sort of anger and with strength in this case. So... No, Biden shouldn't get in a fistfight with him. Yeah, that's Trump's game. Yeah, it doesn't get to Biden's credit. He won't win that. And I think the other thing about this is...

If you're Biden, when you've got Trump going in that direction, let him go. It's the same advice I gave to Trump four years ago that he did not follow. When we got done with our last session of debate prep, the day of the debate in the White House, I was leaving to go up to ABC to do commentary. And I got chased down on exec drive saying he needs to talk to you again.

And I went back up to the Oval Office and it was one of the few times where Trump, there was no one else in the Oval Office, it was just me and Trump. And he said, look, you helped me win these debates four years ago. Let's put everything else that we've done aside. If there's one bit of advice you want me to walk in that room thinking, what is it? And I said, let Biden talk. If you let him talk, he will hang himself. And of course, he did the exact opposite and lost the debate.

I think this time I would say the exact same thing to Biden. Let Trump talk, let him go, give him as much peace as possible. I don't care how angry you get about how absolutely incorrect the stuff he's saying about your record is, about your family, about you personally. Don't engage because you will lose that fight. And what you want is for people to say, my God, can he shut up?

Can't he stop? And don't say it yourself. Let the people watching conclude that. Yeah, you gave him good advice and he gave you COVID. It doesn't seem like a fair change there. You know, there is a good leaf blower joke somewhere for Biden. That's stuck in my head now. It's a good analogy for Trump. I've never debated a leaf blower before. That's why I love focus groups because people say stuff that... Yeah, exactly. The governor talked about people who knew better

But because of personal ambition, we're not willing to say what they would say privately. And I'm sure, Governor, they said it privately to you quite a bit. But I want to play. We did have an event last week with one of his former opponents. And this is a mashup of things that Nikki Haley said about Trump during the campaign and what she said, closing with what she said last week. I want to talk a little about that.

He was

Thin skinned and easily distracted. He's just toxic. When he lies, it's because he feels insecure. And I know him well. He is very insecure right now. He's just not at the same level he was at 2016. But you don't go with someone who's going to be in a courtroom longer than they're going to be campaigning. God bless Donald Trump, who's just having a temper tantrum about me every day. Trump has not been perfect on these policies. I've made that clear many, many times.

But Biden has been a catastrophe. So I will be voting for Trump. There you go. That was the last bit was obviously from last week. I am not surprised. And I'll bet the governor isn't either. No, I said it at the time. I said it all during the campaign that I guarantee people who were

upset about the prospect of Donald Trump being our nominee and ultimately being the president again, that that's what would happen. But I will tell you guys, I think it goes to an even bigger issue than just Nikki Haley. And it's kind of what I was saying in the speech that you played at the beginning. The fact is that the party and so many people in the party have now taken on the personality of Donald Trump in this respect, that personal ambition trumps everything.

no pun intended, that there are no character guardrails anymore. There are no red lines that, okay, you cross over this, I cannot be with you. And to me, that red line for character was election night 2020. When you start to screw with the Democratic transfer of power,

from the voters, that's it, I'm done. And I've been done since that night. And by the way, you had folks like Lindsey Graham, who now can't stop himself from falling over to kiss Donald Trump for your end, who said that night, I'm done, I'm through with him. That's it. He said it after January 6th, he was through with him. That was it. But they all look at their own personal ambition and make a different decision.

And I was out at the Institute of Politics at the University of Chicago a month or two ago. A great, great institution. Yes, yes. An invitation of both you and Senator Heitkamp. And one of the issues that came up was a student asking me what role I thought character played in the decisions that I've had to make in my elected career. And what I said to that student that day, and I really believe, is that character is everything. It is everything.

It is the non-negotiable portion of leadership. Everything else is negotiable and should be negotiable, but this isn't. And so I think what you saw Nikki do this week was predictable, but she's just one in a long line of people. Tim Scott,

I am much more surprised at what Tim Scott has done than I am at what Nikki Haley has done. Well, he's campaigning. I mean, he's actively campaigning for vice president. Yeah, but he it's a Scott. You're right, Governor, with a special case. I mean, Nikki is famous for being, shall we say, flexible in the pursuit of ambition. And this clearly means she's running again. That's the real tell here. Yeah. And it was a clumsy way to do it.

But Scott had actually actively kept some Trump distance until he ran for president. He had been very adroit and thoughtful about that and showed some hesitation. And then now number one cheerleader on the planet. It's unbelievable. Doug Burgum, for that fact, too, knows a lot better. Of course. But Gov's right. It is like a virus, a brain control virus where there is no price tag.

too high to pay now to try to move ahead in the Game of Thrones inside the Republican Party. Watching Tim Scott try and answer this question about whether he'd accept the results of a free and fair election. I mean, he may not get to be vice president, but he should get a spot in Cirque du Soleil for all the ways he's twisting himself in unnatural positions here in order to try and please Trump.

Yeah, he's making Rubio nervous. I mean, the former champ. When you look at what's happening here, it is folly in my view. If what your goal is, is to be the next Republican nominee for president, because to think that Donald Trump will control that action.

No matter what happens, whether he wins or loses, in the same way he has controlled that action over the last eight years is absurd. He won't be a candidate one way or the other, whether he wins or loses. If he loses, he will now be a twice defeated by Joe Biden, for God's sake, candidate, not the greatest presidential candidate in the history of our country by a long shot.

And if he wins, he'll have whatever's happened over the next four years as a millstone around his neck. And we all know that second terms are often very, very difficult for presidents, even under the best of circumstances. And so I think that not only are they showing no character,

But they're also showing no smarts. Right. Totally right. Because the midterms will be a disaster. Trump will either lose to Biden now or lose the party to the Democrats in the midterm after a disaster, a second term. The smart move for Nikki would have been to be Greta Garbo. Just vanish and let the mystique grow. And if there has to be a perfunctory one written statement during the convention, I always support the Republican nominee.

and say nothing else and then be the I told you so candidate. She might have been positioned, but she can't avoid the spotlight, and now she's out. She always thinks she can slice the salami. Yes, way too thin. Yeah, just thin enough. And so she...

You know, what will be interesting is will there'll be pressure on her to do more than simply say she's going to vote for him? Will she do that? And I guess my question to you guys is, will her saying she's going to vote for him be

encourage others who had supported her in these primaries, a bunch of whom are Democrats, honestly, but the Republicans who supported her, will that actually mean something to them? I mean, she's sort of articulating the case that Trump people want, which is like, yeah, Trump is awful, but Biden's awful. I have a take on this. I want to hear Chris's. I actually think, you know, the press...

is very binary. So if you didn't vote for Trump, you're a Haley voter. I don't think most Haley voters were necessarily Haley voters. There were disaffected, like the Indiana and Marion County, when she posted her story, there were Pence people in there. There are Christie people. She was just the not Trump thing on the ballot. So the idea that she moves a big voter army, I don't buy it. And as you say, a lot of them are people crossing over independents or some Dems who wanted to vote against Trump twice.

So I think there are Republicans with huge doubts about Trump. Whether or not they look to Haley as their high lantern, I'm dubious about. She was the only one left on the ballot. That if you look at Pennsylvania...

which you guys know was a closed primary. Yes. He didn't have Democrats or independents voting in Pennsylvania. And he still got 17% of the vote. Still. Yeah. All right. Now, I think that reinforces Mike's point, which is these are Republicans who are saying, I will not vote for him.

So who's left on the ballot? You know, so I don't think her saying anything moves many voters. It'll move a few, but not anywhere near ones that'll make a difference. I think that

The smartest move for her to have been is exactly what Mike said. And I don't think if I were her, I would have even put out the one sentence statement. Trump gave her every ability to shut up. Yes, exactly. He attacked her personally. He attacked her donors. He attacked her family. And so she has no one would have criticized her. At least no one other than the strongest Trump supporters would have criticized Nikki Haley for saying, I'm sorry, he stepped over the line.

I'm not saying who I'm going to vote for. That's my private choice. But I could tell you this much.

You know, I'm not going to be getting involved in this race in any way. And I think that would have been the smart thing to do because it gives you the greatest amount of flexibility if what you're looking for is 28. And let's face it, if you look at those primary campaigns, Mike, both Nikki Haley and Ron DeSantis, both were running for 2028, not 2024. Yeah, no, I agree with that. But if she'd vanished, she could come out of the wreckage and be somebody. Right. And

But now she's got to wear it. Now she's got to wear it. Right, I agree. And now some of her staff will say, well, we better go out and campaign for him because Sanis is moving ahead. And she'll fall into a trap. Okay, then let's take a break right here, and we'll be right back. This podcast is sponsored by The Washington Post.

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Chris, you were courted vigorously by the No Labels Party, now renamed the No Candidate Party, and you considered it and you polled and you voted.

pondered it. What was the conclusion you drew about the presence of third-party candidates in this race? Well, a few. One, you can't win. That's for sure. Right? So that's what got me out of it. Like, if there was a pathway to trying to win, I would have done it. There isn't one. Second, I think that when you looked at my candidacy,

For instance, it was very hard to tell. And we polled in 12 different swingy type states. It was very hard to tell whether you would hurt Trump more or hurt Biden more. It varied from state to state. The interesting thing in our polling was that pretty consistently, RFK Jr. was hurting Trump more than he was hurting Biden. But even he never got above 13% in any state that we polled it.

And so, you know, what gave him the conclusion it led me to was that it's a fool's errand. And, you know, as much as, you know, I went after one with the idea of saying if there's a chance to win, I want to try to do it. But the secondary point was if there was any chance that my candidacy would help Trump, I wouldn't do it. And so I came away with that.

from that exercise with one definitive answer and one ambiguous one. The definitive answer was you can't win, nor can anyone else, because we polled everybody else that you could possibly think of. And secondly, that it was unclear whether I would hurt

Biden more or hurt Trump more. And given that lack of clarity, it was another reason why I just wouldn't do it because I couldn't come out of this in clear conscience and have the conclusion be that I wound up helping Donald Trump get elected president. That was not something I was willing to live with.

So I can't resist the question if the phone rings and like, I'm going to vote for Joe Biden. I'm a conservative. I'm not crazy about it for a lot of reasons. If you were asked to assist with the Biden campaign on the theory that Trump is the end of the world and the oval, would you do it? Or at least think about it? Look, if a president of the United States calls you and asks you for advice or help, my view is you always give it.

Now, in terms of the campaign, I think it's a different thing. I gotta tell you, Mike, as I've watched this campaign, the Biden campaign, it is so bad. I know. And so inept. It's painful. I mean, it is painful to watch a campaign. And I contrast it, and not just because David's on here, but I contrast it with the Obama reelecting 12, when they realized early on that they had two distinct advantages.

Their candidate was free to do whatever he wanted to do. He didn't have a primary and didn't have to worry about that. And two, they had significantly more resources to spend than Romney did. And so they buried him.

They absolutely buried him. Yeah, they had a better Romney-defining campaign than Romney did. That's right. And so if you're Biden, how are you not out there now? You guys can keep on talking. I'm just listening. Sorry. We're having a little Republican therapy over here. I love the retrospective. But it does raise a question, which is, have they called you? No. Let me be definitive. Nope.

Nobody's called you from that campaign or the president himself. No. Because, you know, I hear this from a lot of Republicans who have renounced Trump, who whatever their reservations about Biden are, you know, desperately interested in seeing that Trump not win, that who think that it's better for the Republican Party if Trump doesn't win and who.

if called upon, would publicly do things for Biden and for, you know, he never called Haley. I guess they he talked to a group of Haley, former Haley supporters the day she endorsed Trump or quasi endorsed Trump. And I'm like bewildered by this.

I really don't understand it. Why you wouldn't want to scoop up people who would give a permission structure to other Republicans who are really troubled by Trump and are thinking of voting for Biden. Or at least give it a shot. I mean, what do you got to lose right now? And I said this out at University of Chicago and I said it at Yale a couple of weeks ago when I was there. I'm not voting for either one of them at the moment.

I will never vote for Trump under any circumstances. That's done. And right now, I couldn't vote for Biden.

Some of it's philosophical, but some of it's just based on the ineptitude and his lack of showing any kind of sense of urgency about what's going on here. And I think that has to do with the fact, and I said this to President Obama a couple of times when he was president about my view of how does the Senate prepare somebody to be president of the United States. I think Joe Biden and his staff

are almost exclusively a Senate staff with a Senate mindset with no sense of urgency of what it takes to be a really effective executive. And he's not getting any younger. So when I add all those things up, that's why I wouldn't vote for either one of them. But, you know, at this point, it would not hurt them

to make a phone call to me or to other people for advice and help. And maybe if you start to ease someone into that, maybe then you're willing to do something publicly. But I think they're too partisan to want to do that. And I think there's this insecurity they have about them too, that that would be some type of admission of weakness. And frankly, the admission of weakness is the performance of their candidate.

And everyone could see it. For 25 years, I've heard in campaigns, we can't show weakness. Generally, when you're in a situation where people are saying that, the smartest thing you can do strategically is show a little damn weakness, retreat and counterattack. The other thing I think the Biden people are missing is I get the debate challenge because it was like the State of the Union. They had terrible polls, big panic. He did better than expected. So they're repeating that drill. But if they blow this debate,

And they're not ready. And I know I think you just I think you agree on the boomlet, maybe not the severity of it, or I should say the panic. There will be calls for him to get out of the damn race that will not be small. Yeah, I think a total house fire is possible now if he blows that debate. And there ought to be one. Let me say a couple of things. One is to the governor and his critique.

I've been as critical of the campaign as anyone. And, you know, I'm concerned that they are running more of a Senate race than a presidential race. In Senate races, you can be very tactical and you raise a few issues, you run some ads. In a presidential race, you have to tell a story and you have to tell it consistently and you have to hit points again and again and again until people understand what your definition of the race is.

and they have flitted from one thing to another. We're going to play an ad of theirs in a second that is the latest, a latest iteration. They do do some of the economic stuff, but they do it as a drive-by, not as a,

consistent message. In terms, Mike, of your point, you know, people come to me and say, well, what if he blows a debate this way? There's no doubt. I mean, there's a panic right now and there's a piece in Politico about this this morning. There are a lot of Democrats who are worried about

even though the race is, you know, in polling close and in these battleground states closely, it doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel right. But I'm trying to picture what that would be like, actually. First of all, Joe Biden isn't going to he believes he's the best candidate. He's not going to get out of the race.

So I think that's a fantasy, too. I mean, if you get hounded enough because only Biden can do it. LBJ wasn't going to be nominated, though. He was worried about not being nominated. I mean, Biden. I mean, Biden is nominated. OK, and he's not getting out of. I mean.

I'm just telling you, well, we'll see. We'll see. Hopefully it won't happen because he'll win the debate. You and I have had many bets during the course of this campaign. And I would bet you that people, one of the reasons they wanted the debate early was because they wanted people to recognize this is the choice. This is it. It's going to be Biden versus Trump. And they want to focus people on that because there are still people out there saying, well, God, it's got to be a different. I mean, this can't be the final decision.

I agree that. And I think it's a long shot, but not a crazy long shot, because if Biden gets his buck kicked by Donald Trump pre-convention, the rationale for him as nominee goes away. And I think the panic will be something we've never seen before in scope and noise. And that might hound him out of the race. It would be down to him and Jill. We'll see.

But I don't think it's a crazy scenario. If he does well, he'll get the reset and, you know, world is better. But I think there's a risk out there. I would only say this about that, that I've known Joe Biden longer than I've known Donald Trump. I met Joe Biden when I was an undergrad at the University of Delaware, which is both of our alma maters. And I've remained, you know, in touch with him all those years since then.

I don't see him no matter what happens, unless, you know, he would have a physical problem. I agree. But not obscure. Yeah, I agree. I don't see him getting out. I just right. Joe Biden has thought since he was a child that he should be president United States. He thinks that the fact that he had to wait till this time is one of life's great injustices.

And he ain't walking away. And I think I think he'll take the ship down with him before he'll walk away. And and I and I think Jill's the same way. Yeah, I agree with you. I don't think he's gone anywhere. But let's hear this latest Biden. Yeah.

And he'll stop at nothing to get it.

I'm Joe Biden, and I approve this message. You know, every single poll shows that Biden's main problem is with younger voters, and nothing speaks to younger voters than...

an 80-year-old movie star narrating your spot? You know, it's the Hillary campaign. It's all about Trump. We just we get an older white guy to be the VO and with all due respect to Robert De Niro. You know, it is they're missing the boat. If they can't partially fix Biden, country's going to fire him and bang it on Trump, just like Hillary does, is part of the equation. But it's not the most important part, in my view. Do you think that moves people?

Nope. I know I don't. I think it's all stuff we already know and it's already baked in. And I think that I think that Mike is right that and you alluded to this before, David, on talking about the debate prep stuff. It's not enough to say what Trump isn't. You've got to contrast it with what you are and what you will be going forward. And it's just not enough just to run that kind of ad on Trump.

And certainly, if you're gonna do that, you gotta get even harsher than that and tougher and in much louder volume than what they're doing at the moment.

to affect those people you're trying to affect. So I think it's a waste of money. Yeah, they're doing, you know, vote for me, Biden, and you don't get Trump. Let me tell you how horrible Trump is. But it's like peanuts. What I think voters are hearing is blah, blah, blah, Trump bad. They already know that. Blah, blah, blah. Trump was better on the economy in their perception, which is all that counts. So

He's attacking the cure in some ways economically because we haven't fixed him as having any offer to voters of what you get next time other than not Trump. And, of course, connect on the economy. They think this is the same race as four years ago, and it's not. Right, right. Four years ago, people saw what was going on with Trump. They didn't know what Biden would be. And that's an easier choice to make. Now they know what Biden has been.

And that it's a different dynamic this time. And you have to respond to the different dynamics. Yeah. Well, like I said earlier, I mean, I think, yes, the economy is driving a lot.

And people see it through the prism of costs. And I think they got to go right at Trump on health, health, you know, on health care, on prescription drug costs, on the things on which they're on, which they differ and on which Trump would deliver a very different, different set of outcomes. And I think. Right. And make it a motive thing. You know, who's. Yes.

I mean, you know, that's we were not in a great position relative to public attitudes about the economy in 2012. And we drew a contrast about which side are you on? Who's going to be working on who's working on stuff that actually impacts on your life and who's on the other side of those? And we were able to we never won who would.

be the overall, you know, mastermind of the better mastermind of the economy. But we won big on who would be an advocate for you in the economy. And that and that's something Joe Biden ought to be able to win. But you got to drive it. You got to drive it relentlessly. OK, gentlemen, we will be back in a minute, but we have to pay a few bills.

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You know, Mike, we can't not let our listeners have a chance to hear from Governor Christie. So we should hit the mailbag, I think. Listener mail.

If you have a question for the Hacks, just email us at hacksontap at gmail.com, hacksontap at gmail.com. Or you can call the back room of an off-track betting parlor that Axelrod's involved in in Chicago. Leave us a voicemail. Don't make it too long. We're the bloviators around here. And use your name so we can introduce you correctly. Give them the number, man. I can't remember it.

773-389-4471. I'll repeat it because who can remember that? 773-389-4471. And thanks to our friends again at OpenAI for creating that. Yeah, I've been gone for years. Uncanny imitation of Mike Murphy. Governor Christie Allen.

asks, in the upcoming June debate, how do you think President Biden should handle being asked by the moderators something along the lines of, what do you say to voters who have seen the price of gas and groceries and rent go up a lot under your administration, especially with Trump right there to promise that he will lower all those prices? Well, look, I think if you're Biden on that, you have to say, look, you know, I inherited a world that was in absolute tumult because of Donald Trump.

And you saw conflict we have in the Middle East and conflict that we have in Ukraine. We're all set up because he coddled Putin and he coddled and he coddled the folks in the Middle East. And now here, you know, it turned out to lead to higher gas prices. But guess what? We've turned it around. We moved it in another direction and start to talk about how it's getting better. I understand those first year and a half of my presidency were very difficult.

And it was hard for me and it was hard for all of you, but we are getting better. And he could use the stat that they're producing more oil now domestically than they ever have in the history of the country. We're going to do better. And what we don't want to go back to is a time when we have somebody like Donald Trump who is coddling dictators around the world. And I've had to clean up

the wars that he created. It's not a great answer, but it's about the best you could do on that, I think. Yeah. I guess I would turn that around a little bit and I would be more about he, you know, Donald Trump left a terrible mess. You know, we were in the midst of an economic crisis, a pandemic.

And the entire world was enveloped in that. And the entire world has experienced a terrible wave of inflation as a result of it. And it's hurt. And I would then talk about how it's hurt people. But we're fighting back. And one way we're fighting back is trying to lower prescription drug prices. He wants to raise them. We're fighting back to try and lower health care costs through the Affordable Care Act. He would repeal it. You

You know, and I go through a series of things like that and say, you know, if costs are your concern, Donald Trump's not the answer.

We've done the hard work together. Now, as we turn the corner, the question is, will the president be on your side or his own side? We'll boom, boom, you know, contrast stuff. Now, a question for David Axelrod by voicemail from Brian. Hey, Hacks, this is Brian from Lexington, Kentucky. As campaign experts, I want to know why the Biden campaign is not deploying the Obamas, the Clintons, his

his cabinet, like Mayor Pete, out in the field? Is it too early to start that, or are they making a big mistake? Love your show, guys. Thanks.

Thanks, Brian. Well, look, I think that the question overall is, if your candidate is not a great performer, as is the case here, shouldn't you have a superstar group of surrogates out there carrying your message? And there are plenty of them in the Democratic Party, not just the Clintons and the Obamas, certainly Pete Buttigieg, but he's...

He's got limitations because he's in the cabinet. I mean, one question is, should they release some of these cabinet members now in order to go out and campaign? He certainly would be one of them. There are others in the cabinet. But you've got governors who are champing at the bit. The question is, what are they saying? If you aren't clear on what your message is, what are you sending these surrogates out there to do?

And that seems to me the larger question. Yes, they need their surrogates out there, but they also need to be in a coordinated kind of messaging exercise. And that I don't see. And I hope that that picks up sometime soon.

Yeah, you know, you can have a great chorus, but you need a hit number. It's all message. But team versus team is good for Biden. I think they were hiding all his Mitch Landrieus and Gina Raimundo's and Buttigieg's. Oh, it makes them look old. Well, they've lost that battle. So have the A-team. But David is completely right. The choir's got to have some music.

I do think you'll see the Obamas and the Clintons to the degree they want them out there after the convention. That's generally when those folks get activated. Chris, when you were you've been a surrogate at times in presidential races. What what is your relationship with campaigns been?

Have you been given message instruction? Do they send you out for specific purposes? Do you know what you're doing out there? It depends on the campaign. But let's say in the Romney campaign in 12, there was not a lot of direction given. And I mean, I was the keynote speaker. I was probably, I think, beside Ryan, their top surrogate. And we just never got a whole lot of direction.

And so we went out, I just went out and did what I wanted to do. Most of the time Romney liked it. So it turned out to be okay. Every once in a while I'd get a call saying, well, we didn't like that piece or that part and that's fine. It's their campaign, but they didn't give a lot of direction. Interestingly on the Trump side of things, I was a circuit, but almost exclusively on TV. On the road, they didn't want anybody else other than him.

But on TV, I did a bunch of TV for Trump in 16. And there, there was some really...

specific direction that you got mostly from Kellyanne Conway about what they wanted us to be emphasizing. So in that respect, and probably only in that respect, the Trump campaign was a lot more disciplined in that respect than the Romney campaign. Mike Murphy, this is one that speaks to your home turf. Kathy

It seems that the Michigan Republican Party, which was once a well-oiled machine, I'll add when Mike Murphy was involved in it, has been completely taken over by the Stop the Steal MAGA diehards. How significant is this for the 2024 elections? Just how important is a state party? You know, thank you for the kind words. And Kathy, thank you for the question. Oh, it's heartbreaking. It is really because Michigan's, you know, the classic swing state.

It's a good place to learn politics, as is New Jersey, another place I've been honored to work. Yeah.

And it's a tragedy now. You literally have people walking around in aluminum foil Paul Revere hats trying to run the state party. They're like dueling Twitter feeds. It's like a third world coup. And, you know, again, message is the key to everything. But parties are amplifiers. And there are a lot of voter programs. If you've got a good message, you can run with a party to, you know, move numbers. And the Michigan party used to be great at it. And

And now there is no Michigan. They basically fight over the door locks in the building. There's no money. The donors have all run away. So it is it's a material problem. But in a campaign where the macro stuff by or the president takes over, though, those things on the side, well, important, don't drive it. So Trump can still win Michigan even with a

a party that looks more like an asylum than a meaningful political operation. Gov, what is your sense of what having a governor who's politically adroit in a state and state party or a functioning state party? It seems to me that is valuable in a marginal election.

I think it matters a lot on the margins, right? I think it's, but let's face it, Michigan, for instance, is going to be a race that's going to be won or lost in the margins. As is Pennsylvania, as is Wisconsin. And by the way, as is Georgia. And people are not focused on Georgia as much because some of these public polls show a bit of a broader margin there for Trump at the moment. But I will tell you that as of,

Three weeks ago, and I haven't checked in in the last three weeks, but as of three weeks ago, Trump still did not have a state director in Georgia today. The state party is completely divorced from the very popular governor. The governor is running his own political operation with his own path.

And is completely separated now from the state party in Georgia, Brian Kemp. Arizona has much the same issue. Right. And so I think that— Without a Brian Kemp, though, who's, you know, a super talented pilot. Right. And Brian Kemp, by the way, you know, I'm—

I don't think Brian Kemp is going to be an enthusiastic Trump supporter. You know, I think Kemp will do what he needs to do to support the Republican Party up and down the ticket. But I don't think you're going to see Kemp going out there and doing a rally with Donald Trump. And so I think in states like Michigan, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Arizona,

which are going to be key. The only place where I think the Republican Party still has a decent state operation of the swing states is Wisconsin. And Nevada, it's going to be interesting to see they have a newer governor.

And what will his control and influence be? I think he's pretty popular in Nevada, but in the end, does he have control over the state party apparatus? And if he does, will he deploy it for Trump in Nevada or not? I'm not 100% sure how that's gonna work, but in those other states, it's a problem. - There's a great example of this in Georgia with Camp Two.

So Georgia has more EV factories under construction anywhere outside of China. Massive $20 billion in good jobs pouring in. Kemp knows this. He's been part of it. And Trump's out there bashing EVs every day of the week. So I'm with Chris. As the Georgia thing becomes more...

mature in the debate and if they can get their African-American world together, which I worry about on the Biden side, I think Georgia could get back in play. Of the Sunbelt ones, it is the one I think Biden still got a shot for a comeback in. And then the metal benders, of course, are closer. And the lack of organization in Georgia is stunning.

I mean, that's a state where Republicans should be extraordinarily well organized with a governor that just won a really large reelect. That should be a state where the Republicans shouldn't have to be worrying given Biden's performance. And instead, I am willing to bet you that they're going to have to spend time and money, Republicans are, in Georgia for Trump.

if they want to win it. And I don't think they should have to at this point. But the lack of effort by the Trump campaign and Trump's inability to apologize to Kemp, which is what he should do, is also a problem. A couple of things before we go. Bill Walton died yesterday. And I know this is a, you know, we're hacks on tap talking about politics, but

He was a great guy. I knew him. I actually was there in 1973 when he played maybe the greatest game I've ever seen anybody play in the NCAA finals. And I got to know him later and I knew him after his career when he was fighting through all this pain and yet brought

warmth and smiles to not just his TV audience, but everyone he met. And I have to tell you guys, I know we're pressed for time, but I did a podcast with him. My favorite story was when he got arrested in an anti-war protest in 1971 as Coach John Wooden

Took him, came and bailed him out and said, you know, William, if you want to make your voice known, you write a letter. Don't don't go out there. You're a public figure. It's bad for the team and so on.

So Walton went to the coach's office and said, you have some stationery. And she gave him some stationery. And he writes a letter to Nixon demanding that he resign because of the Vietnam War. And it's on John Wooden's letterhead. But he was great. And then the last thing is very personal to me. 50 years ago today, my father passed away. He died by suicide.

And I say it because I know there are people out there who are struggling. Bill Walton struggled with depression because of his pain.

And, uh, so many people live in the shadows and they don't share, uh, their, their pain with, with others and get the help they need. So I want to urge anybody who listens to our podcast, who, uh, is going through, uh, these struggles to call 988, the, the, uh, uh, suicide and crisis lifeline, uh, and get the help you need. Don't, don't trap yourself in this long, dark tunnel that has no exit. And, um,

So let's make the loss of people we love meaningful by supporting each other and those who are struggling. And with that, I want to thank Governor Chris Christie for being with us. I hope you'll...

You'll come back. I know we're not the White House, but, you know, we're a cool hang. So come by any time. In my perspective at the moment, it's a cooler hang than the White House at the moment. It sounds good to me. All right. Thank you, Governor. This was a lot of fun. It was good to talk to you. Guys, good to talk to both of you, too. Thanks. Thanks.