Bizarroland (with Bakari Sellers)
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Hey, pull up a chair. It's Hacks on Tap with David Axelrod, Robert Gibbs, and Mike Murphy. This is all about election interference. This is all Biden-run things, meaning Biden and his thugs, because I don't know if he knows he's alive. And it's a shame. It's a shame what's happening to our country. This is election interference. Murphy, he sounds a little worried.

A little perturbed lately, a little irritable. I think it's his age and dementia catching up with him. I'm going to flip that switch because he's now beating President Biden in malaprops, no doubt about it. But yeah, there's no – look, this court thing has him grumpy even though he had an appeals victory, a relative victory. He's going to trial. Yeah. And guess what? We have with us one of the great trial lawyers in America.

And I know this because he told me himself. Bakari Sellers, my pal Bakari Sellers, former lieutenant governor candidate in South Carolina, former state rep, excellent commentator for CNN, and all-around troublemaker. Bakari Sellers, welcome. Welcome, Bakari. Thank you. Thank you so much. I circled this on my calendar. I was looking forward to this. This is the highest honor I've received, probably.

Probably since yesterday. So Bakari, he's going to trial on April 15th. What impact, if any, will that have on this race?

I don't know. This is going to be interesting. Does he do the Michael Jackson thing, come out of court, stand on top of a suburban and cheer for his fans when he's outside the courthouse? Does he do the thing he did during COVID, which is have a press conference every single day on the steps of the courthouse? He's going to be able to monopolize the news because everybody's going to cover this wall-to-wall. It actually is the weaker case in terms of just...

I mean, I believe he committed a crime and will be found guilty, but it's not the case that is going to turn popular opinion or voters one way or another. I think those cases are the ones that are handling confidential documents in the insurrection case, both handled by Jack Smith. So I'm interested to see the showman Donald Trump starting April 15th and what type of show he puts on every single day. I don't think he'll climb on top of a suburban because I don't think he can.

But, Murphy, do you think a conviction in this case hurts him? You know, marginally. The problem is it's just a big cloud of stuff. You know, he's got legal trouble, this judge, that judge. So for the junkies, cable news is wall to wall. Every board lawyer in America now has a cable hit to do. But

I think we've become so polarized that half the country thinks Trump should be in jail without a trial, and the other half thinks this thing is all rigged and it's a scam, and why isn't Hillary or Clinton or Hunter Biden in jail? So among general election voters that are movable, that increasingly small sliver of six states, yeah, it's a net negative. But do I think it's a huge hammer against them? No, no. I think, you know, you've heard me before.

we're in this bizarre land situation where the Republicans nominated the one guy Biden can beat and the Democrats nominated the one guy Trump can beat. So I don't see Titanic movement here. I mean, it's going to matter around the edges though. I mean, I, the, the new morning console, uh, polls swing state polls just came out and it's the best that Biden's had. Um,

ever in this race. Yeah. And he's, he's within the, what does it say with the, with the one point tied in like Michigan and Wisconsin, which is an improvement. He has a one point lead in Wisconsin. He's tied with Trump in Pennsylvania, Michigan, and he's closer in Nevada within the margin of error. So I think to Murphy's point, like a conviction, uh,

That around the edges, that may be enough. Well, this is a marginal race and marginal things make a difference. You know, I had Chris Christie. I'm going to talk about this a little bit later because he may inject himself into this discussion. But

He his basic view was most of the people he talked to out there weren't really distinguishing between the cases and like a conviction is a conviction and a conviction would be bad for him with some group of voters. And as you guys say, in a marginal race, that could make a difference. But we know how Trump's going to play the deal. You heard a little of it in that bite at the top.

And particularly in New York and particularly with this DA, African-American DA, Manhattan jury. I love, by the way, that he, you know, he always says Biden somehow is the hidden hand behind this. These Republicans...

Say he can't organize a two car funeral, but somehow he's organized this massive web of prosecutions across all these jurisdictions. Of course he has, David. That's why he's neglecting the economy. The conspiracy has taken all his time. I want to go back to the poll for a minute because that poll is ricocheting around D.C. in the morning consulting.

And it is the first good news for President Biden since maybe the State of the Union reviews. What's interesting, and again, I think polls are overrated. It's early, all the usual disclaimers. The movement in the poll is not so much Biden up, but Trump down, which does fuel the idea that when legal trouble is all over television, it's not good for Trump.

Now, the other problem is you got an incumbent in the mid-40s. Never so good. They got to see that Biden number go up. But Trump has dropped. Trump was the movement. So maybe, contrary to what I said before, maybe there is some traction in this marginal thing. But I agree with you to a certain extent about polls, particularly this far out. But polls actually...

I don't think they matter in terms of they're reflective of the outcome this far out. But I do think they matter for two reasons. One, Biden has been bludgeoned with bad polls and building a narrative that this race is not something he can do. He can't win. So actually having good news is important. And two, polling is always good, as both of you all know more than anybody. Polling is good to raise money.

And going in the wrong direction is not going to help him where he's running a deficit, which is in campaign cash. And it's back to what we opened on Trump losing his wig, so to speak, because Trump is more obsessive about these polls. And I agree with you. They're basically a noise meter of what happened in the media a week ago. But but no, this stuff hits nobody harder psychologically than Donald J. Trump. So we're talking about a marginal race.

And as you see in this poll, I mean, generally, generally speaking, third parties don't help Biden.

You make the point, Mike, that Trump is dropping a little in some of these. And I don't know. I wouldn't take any set of polls with one pollster as gospel. But it does show some movement relative to where they are before. But you've got this issue of Robert Kennedy Jr., who is polling 9 to 11 points every

you know, nationally, and he's a factor in these polls here. He's about to announce a running mate today is David Axelrod. Yeah, you finally gave the yes. You know, Biden was on to you from the beginning. No, no, we had a long discussion. We couldn't come to terms as to whose name would come first.

Well, I hear it was growing the mustache back. That was finally the breaking point. Yes, and so my wife vetoed the whole deal when she heard about the mustache thing. So he's naming Nicole Shanahan. Ah. And Nicole Shanahan, I mean, by all accounts, I think the Times reported this this morning, but that's been the speculation for some time. Silicon Valley lawyer and filmmaker and...

mostly Sergei Brin's ex-wife of co-founder of Google. So as vice president, I thought she was related to Kyle Shanahan. Here I am. I was like, man, that would be helpful in California, but I'm not sure. Yeah. But, uh, but what she does bring is a black belt in divorce law, but go ahead.

And a lot of cash, apparently. No kidding. So she paid for the Super Bowl ad and produced it, that RFK Jr. ran in the Super Bowl for $4 million. And this comes at a propitious time for him because he has to get on the ballot in 50 states. It comes at a what? It is a propitious time, counselor. Look it up. Oh.

Oh, boy. Somebody has been playing Words for Friends again. Preparing young kids for the SAT now. This guy went to Morehouse. I can't believe they didn't teach him that. But it comes at an important time for him because he's got to get on the ballot in 50 states. And I think he's discovering that's easier said than done. And so that cash...

Which, by the way, won't get him on the ballot, but it'll help. It'll be marginally effective in some places, but a lot of it is just very hard to overcome if you're a third-party crank. But yeah, what a cynical move. I mean, I'm going to blow the whistle on this.

You know, anyway, go find the richest, useful idiot he can find to fund a quixotic campaign that serves no good purpose other than, I don't know, lead the war against vaccination science. Why would somebody say yes to this?

Yeah, exactly. That is a real good question. Her legal team should have vetted it because clearly they're a little sharper than she is. We should just, just to save Murphy from, as I often have to do from the irate public. The woke stop out there. She, she is, she has been very successful out there. She had a very successful startup when she was, when she was young. She's not a, she's, she's not an idiot.

Fair enough. But but well, yes. But one, the ad was idiotic as she produced it. She owns that. And being the you think every ad is idiotic that you didn't produce. Well, half the time I'm right. That's the real tragedy. The second thing is being part of this scam.

from Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Shame on her. The stakes in this presidential election are really high. And it, you know, this is, it's either ego or cynicism. I'm just not going to applaud her. I think, I think she's using her power for bad. It's a weird thing for anyone to say yes to this because there's, there's no upside other than to know. First of all, like, let's think about ego. No one's going to remember who was,

RFK Jr.'s presidential running mate in this race.

No one will remember that. Unless they were Aaron Rodgers or Jesse Ventura, which were a couple of other names that were floated. And Scott Brown. There would be a useful idiot. It sets you up for failure. Because imagine whomever this young lady is on a stage with Kamala Harris and Tim Scott. I mean, regardless of what you think about either of them, they're going to be more well-suited to discuss these issues than she will be. Yeah, we'll see if it gets to that.

We'll see if it gets to that, where they're all on the same stage. Hey, Bakari, I'm so glad you're here because someone sent me a piece of... I've been watching these numbers and I've heard what you've said about them, about African-American voters and the elevated...

state of the elevated vote that Republicans and Trump are getting in polling, at least from African-American voters. There was a piece, I think, in the Financial Times, a guy wrote a piece about this and went over polling over the last

several cycles and what's going on right now. And then I got this piece, someone sent me very alarmed, a piece of social media that bounced around. I got millions and millions and millions of responses. And I want you to listen to this. And I want on the other end to talk about why it was so impactful and whether you think this is a real thing. I should point out, I don't know who this guy is.

I don't know if anybody knew who this guy was, but it got millions and millions and millions of follows on it. Couldn't pay me to vote for a Democrat. Local, state, federal elections. I don't care what it is. You couldn't pay me to vote for one. You know why? Because they know that we and I mean people who skin color look like mine. They know that we vote party over interest. So after we vote, what do they do?

They don't need us for anything. That's what they do. Year after year after year. I'm from Baltimore and I go home at least twice a year to see family. Same abandoned homes, same crime rate. We haven't had a Republican mayor since the 60s. And look at our environment.

The same can be said for Memphis. The same can be said for St. Louis. The same can be said for Detroit. The same can be said for a lot of these cities all over this country that have been led down the toilet by Democrats for decades.

Stop voting party over interest and vote interest over party. You know, I like that guy. I think there's a point about one party rule. Nah, that's a crock of shit. The funny part about it is like you can say the same thing for rural Mississippi. You can say the same thing for rural Alabama. You can say the same thing for Louisiana. You can say the same thing for South Carolina, where you have these states and cities that have been run by Republicans year after year after year after year. And the only thing that you know is poverty.

I mean, in South Carolina, we have a quarter of shame. Kids go to school where their heating and air don't work. Infrastructure is falling apart. We don't have OBGYNs in every county. We have rural hospitals that are shutting down. Our roads are just the worst. Bridges are falling apart.

And this is all under one party rule, one party rule, decade after decade after decade. So the argument's a bit of a red herring. But what he does articulate better than anything is a frustration that a lot of black voters have with the process. And let me just say this. And I've been thinking about this for a very long period of time. One of the more sinister political ploys.

That is just, it lacks any human dignity, but it's been very successful. It reminds me of Atwater was busing migrants to, but so they're not busing migrants to sanctuary cities. I mean, you have sanctuary cities in Kansas. They know migrants going to Kansas where they're busing them to a majority black run, black cities, Chicago, for example, Baltimore, and it's building this animus between Brown individuals. And it's not,

It's not a xenophobic animus. It's not a I hate immigrants animus. It is. Why does this community get resources in mind? And this this guy on TikTok is articulating. I think his argument is simplistic and I could point out 100 reasons why it's wrong. But you can't deny the anger that he has.

Yeah, I mean, the question I have for you is why did it find such a big audience? And I mean, some of it, honestly, it was on TikTok. I think there's so much going on below the surface that we can't see. So you don't know who's amplifying these things. Yeah, but it can be organic, too. There is frustration. You can see it in the polling numbers on Biden.

He's underperforming right now. There's frustration. But my question is to what I'm asking Bakari really is, is there danger in that argument? I mean, I think social media has added a new interesting just kind of echo chamber where you can have something like this go viral and kind of build into the political narrative. There are a few things I would address. The first is that

Joe Biden, Donald Trump's not getting 20 percent of black voters and Joe Biden. Biggest problem with black voters is not going to be the person. It's turnout. It's the couch. I always say that people analyze this race wrong. They think it's a two person race and it's not. I mean, it's Joe Biden versus Donald Trump versus the couch. And the couch is very, very successful. And ads like this benefit the couch because people will just simply stay home.

Right. And so I think that there is a turnout argument that has to be made. There is a messenger argument that has to be made. Like, who were the best messengers for the people? People no longer trust Joe Biden. They don't trust Kamala Harris. Respectfully, they don't trust your old boss. Right. They're not trying to hear from these political figures. Now, they still have a great talk about John McCain, Murphy. Yeah. McCain. Yeah.

So I think that I think that one of the things that we have to do is is figure out a way to tackle this new environment where there is tick tock and you have to message on tick tock. And Democrats are just we're decently stale. We've always been poor messengers and it's reflective in this new environment.

I always go back to the same thing every time. They want to win the election. The easy meeting for the Biden people to have is, oh, we're going to hit Trump on this. We're going to hit Trump on that. We're going to do all these programs. Great. Do them all. They got to fix Biden. Bye.

Biden's numbers have to go up and they've got to reenergize that vote. This thing didn't spread because there's the flip side of the secret conspiracy that Joe Biden is supposed to be running. There's an appetite. There's frustration. There's frustration in the cities. The Democrats do run more big cities where there are governmental challenges than the Republicans do. I take the point about South Carolina. You make it about Alabama, too, and other places.

One-party rule generally without competition is bad. I don't care what market you talk about. But there is a frustration with Joe Biden. There's also a weird Trump appeal that you see in the Latino community, particularly of men who are traditionally Democrat. Look down to the Rio Grande Valley and some of that. This is a legit organic frustration. It may be simplistic, but

but, you know, the first rule of the Internet is bad news travels faster. So the Biden people have to move his numbers with these. I don't think they're going to vote for Trump either, but the couch is winning right now. I think that both things are true. They need to raise his numbers, but they need to do it in a comparative way. Sure. Because ultimately you need both to animate voters who aren't animated now. And I think that means black voters, white

Latino voters, though, this is a more complicated question, and the community is much more...

diverse and young, I guess I said young voters. - Just one quick interjection, just 'cause I saw some new data. Here in Los Angeles, in LA County, I just saw a survey done by a reputable Democratic polling firm. And you look at LA County, Democrat bastion, you look at the numbers of our very progressive DA, George Gascon, who was at the cutting edge of kind of the progressive DA movement.

They've had it. So some of the progressive, cutting-edge, quote-unquote, democratic issues aren't working in cities anymore because of quality of life concerns. And right in the front of that is crime. This is like a case study. He's doing one out of four voters.

is actually going down, but the kinds of crimes are significant. The counterpoint to your argument, crime is actually going down in these cities. Yeah, that's what I just said. But that's like the Biden Thanksgiving argument. You go to L.A. and hold up a big sign, stand anywhere, particularly, uh,

in, well, any part of town, hold up a sign, crime is going down, people are going to throw eggs at you. We just had a state's attorney's race in Cook County in Chicago. There's still, the race is like 50-50 and it's still up in the air between a former judge and prosecutor, white woman, who was running against some of the policies of the incumbent, Kim Fox, who was one of the leading

sort of progressive prosecutors who suspended all prosecutions for... Right. ...for thefts under $1,000. And, you know, a lot of the sort of visible crimes that you see on the news, or some of them in Chicago, have to do with these smash-and-grab things and carjackings. And so...

Anyway, we'll see about that. All right. We're going to leave for a minute to pay the power bill and then we'll be right back. One of the issues that I think has been troubling for both with both for Biden, with both Biden

young and African-American voters has been the war in the Middle East and in Gaza. And a few interesting things have happened, Murphy. Biden has gotten tougher and tougher on Netanyahu.

Uh, we, we, uh, you and I on an Israeli podcast talked about this Schumer in my view, probably over-torked the thing and made a mistake. And it was a gift to Netanyahu politically because he got into whether Israel should have an election and get rid of Netanyahu. Uh, but the U S sat out a, um,

A resolution. Security Council vote. A C-SPI resolution at the Security Council. This was sort of a historic thing. And then Netanyahu withdrew his team from coming to the U.S. to talk to the Biden folks. So that thing has gotten testy. It is going in the wrong direction for everybody. But Kerry has an interesting perspective because he is rooted in the African-American community, but also has a pretty strong tie to...

or has historically had a tie to AIPAC in the Jewish community. Bakari, where is this now as an issue? You know, I read an interesting article in Politico. Was it yesterday, I believe, where they talked about Kamala Harris? She finds herself a step up in front of Biden on the issue of Israel.

I think that there are a few things. I think that the largest impediment to peace, and you talked about it, is Benjamin Netanyahu. And I think that Chuck Schumer did go a bit far in his speech from the well. And I think that you're starting to see the grassroots efforts actually reverberate because you had this historical vote in the U.N. Security Council.

what's going to happen between now and November, what has to happen is there has to be some cessation of fire. There has to be some cessation of fire in the return of hostages to Israel. And if those things do not happen politically, Joe Biden will have a problem with African-American voters and he will have a problem with young voters. Those are things that have to happen. Now, if they do happen,

Then, you know, the next topic du jour of the day comes up and we'll see what happens. But, you know, having having that ceasefire for a period of time and returning the hostages are things that have to happen. And I'm not sure Jake Sullivan and the crew know exactly how to make it happen. You know, Murphy, you thought you said you mentioned Latino voters before. And I want to link these things. You know, I've said for a long time that I think that the subtext of the Republican campaign

uh, message is basically, uh, world's out of control. Biden's not in command. He's too old. He's too weak. Trump is strong.

And I think that that whole strength weakness thing does have some impact on some Latino voters, on some young African-American voters. It's his brand. It's phony. It's as phony as the boardroom on The Apprentice. But the perception is strong.

This is a go ahead. No, but listen to listen to Trump. Yes. So this is what I want you to comment on. Trump did an interview with Israeli television. And, you know, I would make the argument to these young people and to African-American voters and everyone who is disillusioned with Biden because of how he's handled things.

uh, this very difficult issue of, uh, Gaza. Uh, but I would argue, do you think that the Palestinians would be in better shape if Trump is that's a, that's a, I mean, that's the argument that is the, yeah, I, you know, I,

Let me just say one. I was a huge supporter of the ceasefire they had before Hamas crossed the border to start murdering and raping people. I mean, let's remember where we started here. And Hamas can get a ceasefire now if they release the hostages they're torturing in tunnels.

So, I mean, we have to keep an eye on the fundamentals. Now, it is going badly now for everybody. It's going badly for Biden because he is using young voters because the gospel of identity and everything is, of course, the Palestinians are always right. I disagree. Hey, wait a second. Just a second. No, it's true on campuses. I hear it all the time. They're the oppressed minority. Anti-Semitism and all that.

is shocking and it's dismaying to me, but we have 30,000 dead people in Gaza. We have half the population facing starvation because you can't get relief in. We have bombs continuing to fall in

It is not unreasonable. That you'd say, let's talk about the fundamentals, that is fundamental too. I'm a Jew, Murphy. I care deeply about this. As you and I have talked about, my father was a refugee from violence, anti-Semitic violence. I care a lot about this, but that doesn't mean that

you know, there is no limit to what the Israelis should do. No, I'm not arguing there's no limit. I'm arguing on campuses there's been a problem for a long time. I worked against the BDS movement. You know, it's not just a reaction to the humanitarian catastrophe. And I've been pretty loud about this. The Israelis need to declare victory. This is why I said it's bad for everybody. It's bad for Biden because he's got a political problem. So now he's publicly, and I'm sure more publicly,

aggressively, privately trying to push the Israelis hard. Very bad for Israel to be

untethered from the U.S., not in their interest at all. It only encourages their enemies. If I'm Hamas watching all this, I'm like, God, they're losing the Americans. We're not going to let it. The longer this goes, the more civilian hostages, excuse me, the more civilian casualties, the better for us. They're terrorists. So Bibi then, of course, is doubling down on trying to partisanize it and become a mega-Republican, which is even worse for the Israelis.

So that's why I say it's going wrong on every dimension. The smart move for the Israelis is to protect the alliance and declare victory now. So you know who agrees with you, apparently, as of yesterday, I guess, is Donald J. Trump. Let's listen to that. I'm saving him. You have to finish up your war. You have to finish it up. You got to get it done.

And I'm sure you'll do that. Now we got to get to peace. You can't have this going on. And I will say Israel has to be very careful because you're losing a lot of the world. You're losing a lot of support. But you have to finish up. You have to get the job done. And you have to get on to peace. You have to get on to a normal life for Israel and for everybody else.

That's also where Biden is, by the way. They all want to land it. There are two things. First of all, if anybody thinks that Donald Trump's going to have the competence or the competent people around him to figure out this quagmire, then they're just not looking at this or framing this the right way. You know, I said this on TV with you the other day, David. You got a little blowback from people, but that's just the way, the nature of this argument. I said, you know, we had a ceasefire.

Prior to October 7th. Right. And, um, I am a firm believer that it's very difficult to negotiate with people who don't believe you have a right to exist. And that's a mosque. Right, right, right. I agree with this, but, but on the flip side, um, BB has to maintain power or he's going to prison. And I think that, I think that he knows that. And he, um,

He has done something for a very long period of time. Back during the beginning of my days with AIPAC, we used to say that, you know, Israel was an American value. It wasn't a blue or red thing. You have all the United States congressmen from both sides of the aisle come and show up. That became a little bit more frayed when you had to explain to people in the barbershop why Bibi Nanyahu was bucking Barack Obama and coming to give a speech to

the United States Congress. And you begin to see that fray. And now, I mean, Murphy's right on a certain part of this, which is that BB wants to be a MAGA Republican. But the wow part about America First is that it makes it more complicated because there's so many people who don't even want to get involved in this now, which is rare on both sides. I thought, I mean, it tells you where Trump's read is of this race.

Because he also has to maintain he needs to regain power or he's he may well be going to prison. So he and Bibi are sort of in the same boat. And, you know, I don't think Donald Trump sits around in his idle moments thinking about the geopolitics of the Middle East or about humanitarianism or any of that stuff. He thinks about Donald Trump. So, Murphy, what what what do you make of him?

going on Israeli television and delivering that message. - I think Trump can't resist working a wedge anywhere he sees one, just instinctively.

And he knows that Biden's in the hot seat here. You know, who does he offend? The young voters that he needs or the American Jewish community that he traditionally has gotten plenty of support from. So Trump is making trouble. That's what Trump does. But the guy with the hand on the throttle here is Netanyahu, who's cornered. I would just tell Bibi.

You've got an American president in real political jeopardy, and you're becoming a problem for him. Is it in the Israeli interest to force the Americans to publicly start to lean against

Israel when we are the reinsurance policy for Israel. This is terrible for Israel, what Bibi is doing. And Trump is happy to just be the bystander and watch Biden look weak. It plays into Trump's big tough guy brand. So it's all working for Trump. Another thing occurred to me, a more simplistic explanation, but generally the more simplistic explanations apply when you're talking about Trump. You know, he was pissed at Bibi.

Because B.B. was B.B. very quickly recognized Biden as the winner of the race and congratulated him. And according to all reports, he was just he thought he had done all this for B.B. and he was he was incensed.

by this. So I'm wondering if that isn't part of his motivation as well, because he's all about grudges and vengeance and retribution. Yeah, and personal grievance. I think that's totally true. Yeah, Kim in North Korea is the only leader he likes. And maybe Putin on a good day. I think he just kind of wants to be Putin. He admires him.

Probably scared of them, too. These are people who big time understand grudges and retribution as well. Every foreign leader that Trump admires or likes should be in a psych ward. Let me just say they're not good people. Criminal psych ward. Not a good one. When we start seeing Murphy's text messages leaked on X, we'll know why.

That's why I stay off text. They've been trying to hack me for years. I was actually named an enemy of the Soviet Union. I'm very proud of that. The Soviet Union? How long ago was that? A while back. Let's just say it is a true fact that when Chernenko died and they lowered the Kremlin flag to half-mast, I was standing in Red Square. I'll leave it at that. Not a friend of the Soviets.

None of these names mean anything to a guy Bakari's age, but... Bad commies. Okay, let's take a break right here for a word from our sponsor, and we'll be right back. ♪

So I had Chris Christie. I did an event with him at Arizona State University, and we did a live episode of the Axe Files. And right around then, stories were percolating. This was last week about him and the No Labels Party. And I asked him whether he was seriously considering that. And this is what he had to say.

One of the parties that is at least notionally going to be on the ballot is the No Labels Party. Your name has come up as a potential nominee. Is that something that you are considering? You know, I think the way I would look at it is I will do whatever I can to try to make sure that the country doesn't go through what I think will be the misery of a second Trump term.

There's a lot between actually running yourself and nothing. But I wouldn't preclude anything at this point, David. I would just say that there are a number of hurdles to get over.

before I would actually consider him running as a third party. Oh, God. A yes or no question. How many voters have to say no to this guy before he gets the message? What an ego out of control, in my view. A yes or no question. I don't know the interviewer was left a lot to be desired. Yeah, softball question. Yeah, yeah. Some hack. You know, a discerning listener would say that was not a no answer.

A discerning listener, Bakari, would say this is a guy who is negotiating and waiting to see if the deal is plausible. He might be negotiating with Biden at the same time because all Christie would do as a third-party candidate is give Biden haters a more emotionally fulfilling experience.

uh excuse me give trump haters a more emotionally fulfilling experience so it's bad i raised this with him in the conversation uh it seems you know look i as i said i think i said earlier anything that lowers the threshold uh helps trump because trump has a ceiling he has a high floor and a low ceiling so secondly the kind of republicans who might flake off to christy are uh

are people who may grudgingly fall to, like you, Murphy, grudgingly fall to Biden in a general election. I think that's the most likely place where he would pick up. No, no, it's like French vanilla ice cream. You know, it's not good for vanilla. He is a very good communicator. Oh, he'd put on a show. It doesn't matter if they don't have any money and he's not on it. Well, I think that's part of the negotiation, Bakari. I think that he's probably going to show me the money later.

phase of this. Right. So note to MSNBC, you might be making some talent changes in the next 24 hours. Go write the fat check to Christie. Get him out of this. See, I think he's Chris is a capable Paul. We've all seen that good communicator. He's just turning on the bright lights in the shop window here.

By flirting with this, he's back in the media. I'm sure he's got some agents looking for a better TV deal. I'd be surprised in the end if he runs because he's smart enough easily to know it helps Trump. But that was a shameless bit of PT Barnumism there by Christie. The No Labels Party is at a desperate point here because they have— Everybody's saying no. I mean, Chris Christie is behind Jeff Duncan and people—

Who've been asked to be on the label, on the ticket here? I mean, Larry Hogan was their principal target. And I think the former governor of Maryland and now he's running for the Senate in Maryland, which, by the way, makes that a more interesting race than it would otherwise have been. But coming up on a deadline here, if they don't pick somebody soon, they're not going to be able to get on the ballot. I mean, the RFK just ran into that. And I have a question for both of you. RFK just ran into that.

issue in Nevada. Yeah, because he had to have a running mate. That's one of the reasons why he's naming a running mate today. Correct. Correct. So give me the profile of a No Labels Party voter and the profile of an RFK Jr. voter. Well, the No Labels Party is completely undefined, but I think it was conceived of as a party for people who are chagrined by the choice of

who are sort of center and center, you know, moderate voters, center left and center right, who are unhappy with the choices of their party. Sophisticated. So the John Anderson thing kind of reborn from 1980, who was a liberal. I was born in, I was born in 84. Okay. Well, well,

Your parents were originally inspired to date by an Illinois congressman, John Anderson. Come sit on Uncle Mike's knee while he tells you a story. John Anderson, who ran, he was a Republican and thought Reagan was too extreme and Carter had to be replaced. So he was the thinking kind of thoughtful wine and cheese candidate in 1980. A good guy, by the way. So it's a rehash of that. The thing was built. They were praying for Mitt Romney.

And, you know, this thing was conceived by professional fundraisers. So it's aimed at kind of the the fancy class, so to speak, because that's where the donors are. And that's where the people I can't abide Biden. But, oh, that Trump is horrible.

So it's an escape valve for them. And as David said, and I think you said, Bakari, they can't find anybody dumb enough to fall for it who's somebody. So, you know, it's going to wind up with a Kardashian. If somebody will be RFK Jr.'s running, somebody will be at no labels present. They're calling Silicon Valley divorce lawyers right now to see anybody else like her we can get a couple bill.

Although there was a, I saw something this morning that mysteriously someone took the site, no candidate party.com.

So maybe they'll be the no candidate party going into this election. That's not really true, by the way. That was a joke that didn't land. But yeah, we heard that the thud heard around the world. Yeah, man. Keep going. You got a million of them. We need a pun quickly. It's early. Last thing before we get to the to some questions from our listeners, the House.

and Mike Johnson. They pass these spending bills. Marjorie Taylor Greene files a motion to vacate the chair, in other words, to kick him out like they kicked out Kevin McCarthy. Meanwhile, they take off for two weeks. They still haven't voted on Ukraine aid, Israel aid, and border aid. Murphy, explain your party here.

That's a special wing of my party that I'm not very connected to because I believe in knives, forks and geometry. So I don't I don't speak caveman. But, yeah, he's hanging on by a thread because he's got another revolt because he actually didn't want to shut down the government. I'm talking about Speaker Johnson.

And, you know, what can I tell you? It's exactly what it appears to be. It's Lord of the Flies. Bakari, you could be a member of Congress someday if you could afford to give up your lucrative work. You got to talk to my wife about that. It's an interesting situation because...

If he's going to survive, they have a one vote majority right now. If he was to survive a motion to vacate, it would involve Democrats basically saving him, probably. I think Democrats have realized that the chaos actually serves us better, though. Exactly. That's why they won't do it. I guess my question is, if the next thing he does is pass that package of aid,

Yeah, it might break them because, you know, we've got people, exceptional members like Mike Gallagher and Buck leaving early. They can hardly wait to get out of there because they just, you know, Buck did a little meltdown interview where he explained it's been the worst time to be a member of Congress ever. So the thread they're hanging by is fraying. And, you know, you can't run the House on a one vote majority because everybody's Speaker.

So, yeah, I would not be surprised if he's toppled. If you're Hakeem Jeffries and you're the White House, is this an opportunity for them to pass this security package by making a deal to save Johnson? And it doesn't conflict, Bakari, with your chaos situation.

with your chaos theory in the sense that it would create chaos within the Republican caucus, but it also would create a little window for governing here. I mean, it's kind of an interesting situation. I don't, I mean, what Congress have you been looking at for the past four years? I mean, a window for governing? I don't think that's... No, no, but if you, they just passed, listen, they just passed a, that's a, that's good, it's a glib line, and I see what you're saying. They just passed a spending bill

and avoided a government shutdown. It's two three-dimensional chess. The quote, the great Christopher Reeve to Gene Hackman in Superman, I don't do deals, Luther. They don't want to be any part of this. Let the Republican circus continue.

Because if they save Mike Johnson, they own Mike Johnson. I mean, politically, the downside. Right. Well, he's done, right? I mean, I don't think he's going to survive. I mean, you've given listeners the choices he has. Either he cuts a deal with Democrats and he's done, or he passes these

uh, these, um, um, uh, spending bill, not spending bills that these, um, security bills, security bills. And he's done because there are enough people who are isolationist American first MAGA to get rid of them. Or he's, or he doesn't, I guess that, I guess the question is, does he decide that not passing them may give him the opportunity to continue? But, and that would damage the world that literally damages the world.

Um, any type of stability we have remaining for an illustrates his lack of political courage. I mean, I think this, I think, I mean, I think first of all, January 20,

25 is Speaker Akeem Jeffries. That's first. The Senate's going to be whatever it's going to be. But I think the House, this inability to govern, the chaos that they've had, I think voters will remember that, particularly in swing districts. If I had to guess, I'm not sure I agree on the House. I think it could go either way. But

I if I had to guess, I think Johnson will make a Democratic deal to get the Ukraine thing and the particularly the Israel stuff done. And then he will move on to an August career as president of the American Adhesive and Fastener Association at 800 grand a year. So I think he'll he'll do the right thing and get shot.

And then he'll get expelled? That's my best guess in a murky situation. What about Mike Johnson's career has showed you that he is some elected official of some fortitude? Well, I think he's in a cul-de-sac now where he has to choose his death. Okay.

So he might as well go out swinging and have the Republican business establishment owe him one and the senators. I don't think he wants either choice. It's like, you know, death by drowning or death by. I don't know if he's motivated that way. Maybe, maybe if God tells him, you know, to keep fighting, he can get toppled the regular way. You know, I'm just saying it's an interesting moment here.

Yeah, I just don't think there's a clever Democrat inside play that's politically good for the Dems. I saw AOC on Sunday and she said we're not now she wouldn't necessarily support that security package either because it has aid to Israel in it. But but you heard her say, you know, we're not going to do that for nothing. And.

And I kind of hear that privately from people, too. If he needs our help, you know, then we're going to need him. And this is the security bill is the one that a lot of them mention. So what does she want, the Green New Deal out of him? I had to talk to her. You know, she's holding up Israel aid for some—oh, God, another one of my favorites, AOC. Yeah, I know. Yeah, I like her better than you do, but—

And I'm a likable guy. I try to see the best in people. I don't like the spurious, you know, you bring up Marjorie Taylor Greene. I'm worried you're hanging around the wrong cocktail parties. We got to talk. He's not getting invited to any of them, actually. Yeah, I don't go to cocktail parties. I don't get invited to them. What was it, Miles' birthday or something? Where'd you run into her? The party goes to them. He knows what goes on in those places. Let's stop for a minute and listen to a word from one of our fine sponsors.

Let's see what the great American public wants to hear. Listener mail!

All right, Hackeroos, if you have a question, send it to the mailbag at hacksontap at gmail.com, hacksontap at gmail.com. Or we have an impossible-to-remember phone number, so get your pen or pencil. We're going to play it in a minute where you can leave a voicemail or play your question on the air, particularly if it praises me. Just keep it short, like 20, 25 seconds, and give us your name. No speeches. That's our job. What's the number?

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Thank you to AI for generating Mike Murphy's voice and giving the people the correct phone number. Bakari, we got one for you from Virginia, who was good enough to leave her question on voice. Hi, Hax. This is Virginia in Chicago. Could you please address the idea of a debate between Trump and Biden, what you think the advisability of that is for each party? And is it possible, do you think, to have them have the...

moderators be able to cut the mic when certain parties really bloviate. Thanks. I wonder if she's talking about certain parties. That's Midwestern polite for an a-hole. Go ahead. I think that it's going to be hard-pressed to get them both on stage. I think that the Presidential Debate Commission is one of those fixtures of American politics that's probably run its course, unfortunately. But if they actually get on stage, it's going to be a lot like the State of the Union, where

Republicans are going to set the bar of expectation for Joe Biden to be so low. I mean, the State of the Union expectation was that he was going to come out with a walker with little tennis balls on it, eating applesauce. And if he's able to put sentences together, then he will be deemed to be the victor, which, of course, he's able to do extremely well. And Donald Trump is going to actually show that he's a lot older than people think or give him credit for. I remind people all the time when they call Joe Biden. Oh, I'm like, you know, he's just slightly older than Donald Trump. I don't

I don't think it'll happen, but if it does happen, the bar is going to be set so low. It'd be easy for, um, easy for, uh, Biden to cross, but, uh,

All in all, it won't be a pleasant sight for American politics. So you think Biden wants the debate? I don't think he wants it, but I don't think he'll dodge it either. Yeah, because he said, Murphy, when he was asked recently, would he debate Trump? He said, it depends how he behaves. Well, if that's the standard, forget about it. No, no, they're both acting like they don't want debates. But on October 1st, somebody's losing.

And whoever's losing wants to debate. It's going to be hard to debate around the trials and the conventions and all these other things. It's going to be hard to find some time to do it. The trials give Biden such a great opening ice-breaking joke, too, which is, you know, Donald, you can relax. In this one, you're not under oath.

Anyway, that's free, White House. That's free. Luckily, the president listens to this podcast and will jot down exactly what you... He takes notes on you. I'm going to get him. I'm sure. I think that's probably true. And who's that Irish jerk enabling him? If the debate goes forward, it'll probably be the most consequential since the Carpenter...

carter reagan debate in in 19 i remember watching that in the living room yes exactly we already established that you weren't born yet yes no on the black and white twist the knife bakari twist the knife you've got to go uh uh handle a big case or something some important washington stuff so thank you bakari for your inaugural home run run here yeah exactly this has been awesome i i would not rather spend much more time with two

middle-aged white guys than you two. So thank you. God, I am so touched by this. Yeah.

Thank you. We're just relieved you called us middle-aged. All right. Okay, brother. We'll see you later. Bye. All right. See you. Our next question is for Axelrod from Rick by voicemail. Hey, guys. Long-time listener, first-time caller. Rick from Texas here. Curious to know what you think about foreign affect for our election this fall. There's a lot of talk about TikTok and...

Cambridge Analytica in the past, but I haven't heard as much about it this year. So I'm curious to know what you think about that. Rick, thanks for the question. There's and thanks for listening. There is a rip roaring campaign going on that nobody sees beneath the surface. And social media is going to play a huge part in what, as we keep saying, is a marginal problem.

uh, election. Um, and I do think, you know, we played one piece earlier that, uh, was pulled off of Tik TOK that did very well on Tik TOK. I think that if a malign foreign actors, uh, see an opportunity to amplify through bots, uh, uh, pieces of, uh, uh, of, of social media that they think can be disruptive, uh,

they're going to do it and they are doing it. And I think that, you know, we've seen that you've heard from authorities, the government and so on, that they're already hard at work at this. I think they're going to be a part of this campaign. And, you know,

And given the role, the importance of social media in the flow of information and misinformation, I think it's going to be meaningful and worrisome.

Murphy, you got any thoughts? No, very hard to track. And the deep fakes are coming. You're going to see Joe Biden in a tutu running around chasing. I mean, it is going to be if he's in a tutu and running around and chasing. I think that could actually help them. Yeah, exactly. So it is a huge problem and it is hard to shine the light on it.

So I think it'll be worse this time. And foreign actors are a big deal, including, by the way, on this Trump bail thing. Even though it got reduced, foreign banks bailing them out is something to be concerned about. So, you know, stay tuned, Rick. I think you're going to hear more about that sort of thing. I mean, this is obviously a vulnerability of democracies is that we are open societies.

And given the nature of social media, it's very easy to play. So it's something to monitor and something to be concerned about. And I'm sure a lot of folks are working on this issue. I got one for you, Murphy, from Dan.

That is right down your alley as a frustrated stand up here. What more can the Biden team do to lean into disarming the age question with humor or bluntness? Is there a reason Biden can't get caught on a hot mic on purpose saying something coarse like I'm old as shit, but he's fucking insane?

Speaking seriously, would it actually help them? Would it actually help them connect with those Trump light voters who have concerns about Biden's vitality? Mojo, if he just

If he borrowed a smidge of Trump's saltiness to signal strength to those who may need such a signal. Well, you know, Biden's so old, he discovered the Beatles. Not the band, the insect. Ba-dum-boom, here all week. Tip your server. Yes, Dan, and they're starting to do it. I don't think they need the clever three to make it. The Beatles thing is still killing Axl right here. I don't think...

They need to be clever with hot mics. They've started to do it. He had the thing on Seth Meyers where he said, we're both old, but I can remember my wife's name. They are going to the idea that Trump's –

They're both old, but Trump's ideas are old. I think there's gold there. I think it ought to be more vernacular. He still thinks it's 1955. Take a look at what he thinks about a woman's right to choose, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So loose Biden joking about it takes some of the energy out of it. And I would do plenty of that because, remember, one of the cardinal rules of Donald Trump is he really doesn't have any sense of humor about himself.

He doesn't handle being ridiculed well. I said in the last campaign, I said in this, I want to see a bus tour of comedians following Trump around, mocking the hell out of them. They would be all over streaming and viral social media video. And Trump will not take it well. And in a contest between somebody who's in on the joke and somebody who doesn't get the joke, you want to be the cat who's in on the joke. So, yes, loosen up Biden.

Let him do his own thing. And you should make fun of the age thing. Just always pull Trump into it. I think it's magic vitamin for them. And I think they've experimented. They've had some success. I hope they learn from that and keep going. I couldn't agree with you more. And I sat about 10 feet away from Donald Trump. I was involved in helping on the—

White House Correspondents' Dinner presentation of President Obama in 2011, and when he repaid Trump for his sponsorship of the birther movement with a little pointed humor. And I was about 10 feet away from Trump, and I can report to you that he was unamused. Yeah.

You can find it on Google. Trump just stares raw hatred. You know, he's so insecure, he can't take it. Yeah. So, you know, your idea of a busload of comedians is fine. And I'm sure you'd be happy to drive the bus if... I know I'd be headlining, David. But anyway, keep going. Anyway, thank you for your questions. I hope you guys will continue to

Send them in. Leave your voicemail at the aforementioned number and so on. So before we go, David, we just ought to say a word to all our friends in Baltimore. Yes. Tragedy of the cargo ship taking out the incredible Francis Scott Key Bridge. It's going to shut the port down. Those are jobs. There's some tragic loss of life in this. It is.

It is a sad day in the great city of Baltimore, and we feel for all our friends out there. I know the whole country does, and I hope the casualties are as low as possible. A hundred percent. It's a shocking thing to wake up to, and our thoughts and our prayers are with the folks here.

in Baltimore, and hopefully they will get past this and reconstruct that bridge better and stronger. So, Murphy, your network hired Ronna, formerly Romney McDaniel, as a commentator after she got bumped out as party chair by Trump after years of faithful service to Trump.

And this has created quite a row on the network. Yeah, they've got a talent revolt. And I'm quickly checking my contract for the disparagement clause to see. Look, I've been critical of it. The problem is in the age of Trump, how do you hire Republicans?

You know, because if you're a Democrat, easy to slide into a cable job. You know, nobody doesn't bother anybody. You can go from being a flack and a spinner for a Democratic politician to cable news, particularly at MSNBC in the blink of an eye. And I got no problem with it.

And I have no problem with Republicans going over. But the Trump Republicans who have made claims about things like September 6th and the election being illegitimate, even though there's a 180 one day into the job. I joked on Twitter that...

She's gone from Ronna Romney to Ronna Romney McDaniel to the new name is Ronna Brokaw, the effect of tomorrow. So I get the criticism because it's all part of legitimizing the Trump excesses. And people, I heard Hugh Hewitt on CNN arguing that, hey, she's, you know, there's no difference R and D. Well, with some of these folks, there is a difference. That's the problem.

I get they represent a lot of voters, but they were in the complete untruth business, and there ought to be consequences for that. So above my pay grade over there to figure out what to do, but I think it's pretty clear people are uncomfortable mainstreaming and normalizing Trump behavior as a commentator of the right. There are plenty of conservatives. A flack for complete lies –

I think that is a step too far in my view. I hope you have a pay grade after this podcast is aired. Oh, they can, you know, look, I know I'm just kidding. It's fine. I'm a creature of the Russard era. I mean, I like Caesar a lot. I think there are a lot of good people there. They've been good to me, but you got to call them as you see them. Yeah. Well, good for you. I just wanted to mention a book that I'm reading. Well, I really encourage people to read this book.

It's called The Lincoln Miracle by a historian and journalist named...

I think it's pronounced Acorn, but I don't know. It's A-C-H-O-R-N, Edward. And it's all about the 1860 convention, Republican convention in Chicago, where Abraham Lincoln engineered his forces, engineered his nomination. He came in as a kind of third-tier candidate. William Seward, who was the senator from New York at that time, was the odds-on favorite to be the nominee, and Lincoln threw him

Hook and Crook, and I use both terms with apologies to Honest Abe, managed in a rough and tumble convention to come out as the nominee and, of course, changed the course of history. But it's really, really a great book. You just feel like you're there in Chicago in 1860. It was an interesting place and an unbelievably interesting event.

So I highly recommend it. I'm going to check it out. You know what the coolest part is? Those delegates from 1860 still voting in Chicago. Okay, you got it. Yeah, bada boom. That'll be my opener on the Trump comedy tour. So the other one, I want to replug Sasha Eisenberg, our friend's book.

lie detectives, which gets to the question we had in the mailbag about all the deep fakes and kind of misinformation and how do you try to run a winning campaign in that crazy environment. It's really good and I highly recommend it. All right, brother. We're going to have plenty to talk about. We'll see you next time. All right, pal. Talk to you soon. ...