Is Love is Blind a Toxic Workplace?
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This is the On The Media Midweek Podcast. I'm Michael Loewinger. Every now and then, we hear a segment on a show made by our colleagues here at WNYC that we like so much that we feel like we just have to share it with you. This one is from the New Yorker Radio Hour. Host David Remnick spoke to New Yorker writer Emily Nussbaum about a recent piece she reported about the lawsuits surrounding the reality TV show Love Is Blind.

Enjoy. Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. I feel optimistic that my person is here. I don't really give the nice guy a try, but I really want something real. You've probably heard about the show Love is Blind. Here's how it goes. A group of people enter tiny individual rooms and they're called pods on the show. Each person goes in alone.

There's a comfy couch, no windows, and on the other side of the wall in another pod sits someone else. Same situation. Through the wall, they compare hometowns, astrology signs, and their future goals. And then they do it all again with another person. And after 10 days, some even fall in love and get engaged. That's the premise of Love is Blind. It's one of Netflix's most watched television shows of all time.

It's addictive. And it's fascinating. And there are people who go on the show who did get happily married. I talked to one of them for the piece, Alexa, who was in season three. And, you know, it's catnip to see people fall in love on screen. Like people saying, I love you to one another. And...

There are many contrived and fake things about the show, as there are on many reality shows, but there are authentic parts as well. And I think it's that combination that's what makes reality television powerful to people. I wouldn't deny that, and that's true for me as well. Staff writer Emily Nussbaum is a longtime watcher of reality TV. But lately she's taken a closer look at how this show is made. Its working conditions are now in question.

There have been three separate lawsuits that allege lack of sleep, lack of food, 20-hour work days, and experiences of physical and emotional abuse. And along with those lawsuits, there's now a nascent labor movement in the field of reality television. Emily's piece for The New Yorker is called Is Love is Blind a Toxic Workplace? You're writing this week about an incredible case

controversy with one of the biggest shows in the history of reality television. Why are you drawn to reality television in the first place? Well, I'm drawn to it for two reasons. One of them is that I'm actually am a long-term reality TV watcher. I mean, I was like an OG real world person. I was a web watcher, a big brother when it first came out. But I don't watch it constantly. I'm not into every show. But Love is Blind, I actually did start watching

During the pandemic, which is when a lot of people started watching it. What's the appeal of reality TV to you? I mean, the appeal of it is seeing regular people being emotional in ways that feel like a mirror. And I think a lot of people feel multiple things about reality shows they watch. They feel emotional.

sympathy, they feel contempt, they judge the people. It depends on the show. I mean, some shows are competitive shows like Survivor and some shows are dating shows. Some shows are more like soap operas. So you can't lump them all together. It's a really big category. But the one thing you have to say is whether people like reality or not, it is the most influential genre of pop culture right now. I mean, I feel like its influence spreads far beyond the actual shows.

When you say influential, you mean just as a business proposition or what? It's important as a business proposition in some really insidious ways because the reason it exists is because it's cheap. But the other thing is it's culturally important in multiple ways, including the fact that it elected a president. It's important—

It's important because people— You're referring, of course, to Joe Biden's appearance on The Apprentice. Yes, exactly. No, it's also influential in ways I think are often invisible to us that are linked to technology. The way that people present themselves in public, the way that people date, the way that people operate online is all part of a continuum of the public self that is influenced by, related to, sometimes directly linked to reality television.

Well, then tell us what Love is Blind is all about because it's a huge show for Netflix. Well, it's related to and part of a huge universe of dating shows that go back to literally the 1940s when there was a show called Blind Date where people were separated from the person they flirted with. It was hosted by Arlene Francis. Wow. And it was very controversial at the time. Hello? Hello, Peggy? This is Danny. Hello?

I was told if I called here, I'd get a date with an angel. Somebody's been kidding you, Danny. There are no angels here. Where are you talking from? Well, I don't have any horns either. Oh, brother. And that was the origin of the dating game. So this idea of flirting with somebody that you can't see is nothing new. So you consider the dating game or the newlywed game, which I watched as a little kid,

For all kinds of salacious reasons. Absolutely. Was it a reality TV show? Yeah, I do. I mean, this is a larger conversation, but the way I define reality television is it's basically documentary, cinema verite documentary, fancy schmancy stuff that's been cut with a commercial format.

like soap operas, like game shows, to speed it up and put pressure on people and get both fake and real responses from them. So it, you know, suits a bunch of shows, and I definitely think the dating game and the newlywed game, which were designed to get people to confess to personal things and to the late people who are watching, go into that category. But Love is Blind is a really intensified version of that because people actually do get married.

Emily, the piece that you just wrote for us is almost completely about labor practices, really. What is the labor issue on the set of Love is Blind? And why has this all led to so many lawsuits and so much controversy and interest? This is a piece about something new, which is the idea of a labor movement for reality cast members. Reality television has always been a really charged issue for labor.

And it's based on the idea economically that you don't have to pay actors or writers. That goes back to the earliest roots of reality television back when it was on radio. And there have been attempts to get better conditions for crew but really never for cast members because cast members are in a different position than pretty much anyone else in Hollywood. They don't – they're not like subjects of documentaries who are in a different position and kind of control their conditions but don't get paid. Right.

And they're not like members of SAG-AFTRA who can be either paid scripted actors or like newscasters or hosts of talk shows who are unionized. They're actually in a different category that while I was reporting this piece, I learned was referred to in a very old contract from live television as proxies.

bona fide amateurs. What does that mean? So bona fide amateurs are essentially ordinary people, regular people, civilians who are non-professionals who go onto television and have no rights whatsoever. And one of the things you do when you go on a reality show, and this is a long-term thing, it goes way back, is that you sign a huge, massive, frightening contract. And the contract covers many things, but the two most significant things are

They can do anything they want with the footage that they get of you. They can cut it in any order. They could defame you. You can't complain about that. You're giving them the right to do that. And you sign a massive NDA. So you're also not allowed with – A nondisclosure agreement. I'm sorry. A nondisclosure agreement. But not only that, Emily. They also get paid a pittance, which sounds like they'd be doing better –

you know, working at minimum wage almost, and they're working these, what sounds like 15-hour days. Even longer. I mean, 20-hour days in some cases on Love is Blind. I mean, it varies from show to show, but look, the main thing is when you sign up to appear on a reality show, they deliberately create pressured conditions for you because they're trying to have people

not have sleep, be thrown off kilter. They're trying to get footage of people when they're under pressure. This is not only on Love is Blind. This is conventional for a lot of shows. It's definitely conventional for dating shows. So yes, you agree to be paid nothing. You agree to be portrayed any way they want to. And you agree that you won't talk about it and that you're legally not allowed to talk about it. And the thing is, I mean, honestly, a lot of people, including people in Hollywood, they

even if this seems exploitative or potentially unacceptable, they're like, people chose to do it. This is what they want to do. It's not a job. It's kind of just being a contestant, like on a game show. And so for many years, people really didn't talk about the idea that there should be protections. But I have to say, it's really clear to me, this is an unacceptable, exploitative situation. And Love is Blind is a great

to look at this through, specifically because the people who created the show present it as something better than the ordinary run of reality TV. Well, that's interesting. Why did it take till 2024 for this to become a labor issue in any serious way? Well, I mean...

Look, Hollywood is riddled with all sorts of complex labor issues, not all of which I'm an expert on. And I think that one of the things that has affected this is that there were a series of labor uprisings across the country. There was a massive strike on the part of the WGA and SAG-AFTRA. But there was also the Me Too movement, the Black Lives Matter movement. There's just been a lot of conversation about conditions on set and the treatment of people and trying to make

among other industries more humane. And this is lesser discussed, and I think the main reason is, you know, people look down on anyone who goes on a reality show. It's partially because of how they're portrayed. It's partially because— So you don't see them as coal miners or school teachers, or you see them as objects very often of ridicule. It seems silly. Right. And that somehow you figure they're getting rich because they're in the tablets all the time.

Yeah, actually, the other complicated thing is the economics of it. I mean, historically, reality cast members never made anything, or if they made anything, it was a tiny amount. And the bargain that they're supposed to cut more recently because of social media is...

is they'll become famous and you can monetize your fame other ways. Right. You become a wealthy influencer in some way or another. And there are definitely people who go on these shows, including Love is Blind, where that's the intent. And it is possible to make money on the other end. But that does not excuse the conditions. Even leaving the pay aside, the conditions in which...

they can do brutal things to you and you can't talk about them, those aren't acceptable no matter how much you're getting paid. Let's talk about the you can't talk about it problem. All these people have signed nondisclosure agreements, and you as a journalist, in order to get a satisfying and verifiable story, have to talk to lots of people. How did you get around that insofar as you can talk about it? I mean, honestly, I just contacted a million different crew members online

starting with people who were lower on the totem pole. And worked your way up. And worked my way up. It's the standard way of reporting, and it's brilliantly done. Now, the first lawsuit, and there are a number, the first lawsuit against Love is Blind was filed in June 2022 by someone named Jeremy Hartwell, who was a cast member. He accused the production of unsafe...

and inhumane conditions, including sleep deprivation, food deprivation, and many other labor violations. Let's listen to a clip of him talking on a podcast. I did not sign up to be socially isolated in my hotel room for 24 hours straight without my hotel key. I did not sign up to not being able to use the bathroom for hours on end because to go to the bathroom, we had to have an escort.

I did not sign up to be starved to lose eight pounds in one week. I did not sign up to constantly ask for water and always be dehydrated and never get it. Nobody signs up for these things. The interesting thing is that Jeremy initially thought, Jeremy Hartwell, who was just speaking there, initially thought that what was happening to him was somehow an oversight, an accidental problem that they didn't know was occurring. Right.

And he contacted one of the production companies, Kinetic Content is the name of it, to let them know. How did Kinetic Content respond?

They just said go away. But they said it more rudely. I mean, this is completely normal for a reality show and a reality company. Cast members don't have the kind of power to complain about things in this way. Jeremy ended up getting together with another cast member from his season. And Jeremy had left just a few days into the show, by the way. He didn't get married. He didn't get engaged. He stayed for like four to six days, something like that.

He had had it. Well, no. Actually, I think he did not leave of his own volition from what he told me. Oh, they pushed him out? Yeah. They cut a lot. You know, there are 15 men and 15 women at the beginning of the show. By the time it goes into the part where they get married, it's a very small set of people. So some people get cut. Some people leave. A few people actually get engaged and don't get followed by cameras. Like the show is complicated. There's all sorts of things that happen. Because they're –

Considered boring or –

Right. Love is Blind does not follow the journalistic rules of the New York Times, the New Yorker, anywhere else. They basically get their raw footage and they can do whatever the heck they want with it. Yeah. And again, that's not just Love is Blind. That's all reality shows. But in this particular case, yeah, a bunch of people get cut and leave. Jeremy was one of them. Now, there's another lawsuit, and this time it's filed by a season five cast member named Tran Dang. Yes. Tran Dang doesn't appear on season five.

Tran Dang, after she filmed season five, sued Kinetic Content because she said that she'd been sexually assaulted by the guy she got engaged to when they were on that vacation that they all take. And she said that she'd complained about this to the producers and

And they ignored her and kind of mind-gamed her and said, this is a matter of miscommunication. You're not being forgiving enough. And when she finally insisted on leaving the show, she says they forced her to film a scene where they were basically feeding her lines. It's a really terrible story. The other thing that's in these contracts is that there's a clause that says that if you have complaints about the show, it goes into private arbitration. And that means that the company and you have to work it out without the public ever knowing what happened.

So every complaint about the show is supposed to go into private arbitration. And actually Tran and her lawyer have gotten the right to have this be a public case. I think partially because it is about assault. Tran Dang's fiance, we should say, Emily, denied these allegations. But the fact that Tran Dang's suit will be played out in public is a big deal.

It will allow the rest of us to actually understand the working conditions, sometimes really disturbing, that take place behind the scenes on reality TV shows. Emily, there's a story, and this takes up a fair amount of space in your piece. There's the story of René Pochet and Carter Wall. The producers were instructed to never leave the two of them alone together because of how volatile their

Carter Wall was. What happened there? Well, it didn't start like that. I mean, what started at the beginning was that they cast Carter Wall, who... Who's Carter Wall? Carter Wall, who spoke to me. Carter Wall was a guy who was a heavy drinker. He didn't have a job. He had a kind of unstable life.

And they reached out to him on Facebook the way they reach out to many people on social media and said, do you want to try out for this show? One of the things that they have consistently told people on the show is we don't cast people who have red flags. Like we're casting people who could be somebody you'd want to marry.

What are they looking for when they scan Facebook? I mean, obviously, it's a reality show. They're casting for lively, vibrant characters who sometimes I think they cast for people who are unstable in a way. Deliberately. Yeah. I mean, they're looking for people who pop on television. Right. And that can mean a lot of different things. I think one of the really hazardous things for people who go on shows is that sometimes people are mentally unstable in a way that makes them just –

huge drama on TV, but it's very bad for the people because being on camera and becoming globally famous while losing it on camera... And morally dubious, no? Yes, I would say that's morally dubious. But in Carter's case, he was cast on the show, Renee was cast on the show, and they bonded in the pods, and things seemed to be going pretty well for them. And they got engaged, which is what happens on the show. But when they were back in Houston, that's when things got really bad. And

Basically, the story that I trace in this piece is

is from the perspective, a lot of it, of crew members on the show who watched as Carter became increasingly resentful and Renee pulled away, and he was getting increasingly angry, and he was yelling at her and calling her names. I mean, it's a complicated story. There's a gun involved, too. Well, Renee has a gun that she keeps in her glove compartment, and she's said on a podcast episode,

that she gave that she was told by production not to let Carter get near it. They were clearly concerned about his temper and about the idea that he was dangerous. The entire situation seems to me to have been hazardous, but it kept rolling forward anyway. What you have to understand about this, this didn't all happen at once. This happened over the course of the show as everybody was filming it. And as it became more and more apparent

that Carter seemed like a threatening, insulting figure as Renee clearly started getting doubts about the whole thing and going through it. They nonetheless kept filming. They filmed all the way until they filmed a scene where they went down the aisle and Renee walked away and said, no, this happens a lot on the show. Not everyone gets married. Did he disappear?

On the air? No. That's what happened is that they filmed the entire thing, they did the initial edit, and then they didn't put it on the air. I mean, I explore various different reasons. So who's suing whom here? The lawsuit is because after they didn't show it on season five...

Which Renee didn't find out about until shortly before the season ran. She started speaking out on podcasts. They just called me and it was really out of nowhere. And just to let me know that my storyline wasn't going to be a main focus for the season and that they didn't want me to relive everything I had gone through. And I was really confused. I thought that it was just going to be still everything was shown, but just not, you

not as deep as what really happened, which I kind of wouldn't have been surprised if that was the case. Since so much bad stuff happened, I knew a lot of things just wouldn't even be appropriate for Netflix. What she's talked about in various podcasts is that she was frustrated that they didn't show it. She'd gone through the whole thing and she wanted the story to be told. But also she's part of a group of people who is friendly with Tran Dang. They were all friends in the pods. Tran Dang's lawsuit was going through

And, I mean, this is the thing. It's a complicated story. The reason I think they didn't run her story is actually because somebody from Carter's family and friends called the production and said that he might commit suicide if they aired it. Whoa. So I think that that's the reason. I have to say, if I'm an executive at Netflix and I'm presiding over this ultimately, aren't I playing with fire? I mean, I'm searching...

I'm searching social media for people who are potentially unstable. I'm throwing them together in this kind of experiment in intimacy. Aren't bad things bound to happen? I think they are. I also have to say I think dating shows are particularly prone to stuff like this. Look, the story of Carter and Renee are both stories that have to do with abuse, emotional abuse, and some really –

Yeah.

The reason it's useful to talk about Renee's lawsuit specifically is because what happened to her on the show is in some ways ordinary. She filmed the entire show. The exceptional thing is that they didn't show it on the air. She's being sued for talking about her experience. Breaking her NDA. She broke her NDA and –

Generally, they haven't sued people for this, but they are suing her. And the message seems to be, you can't tell people the secrets of the show. And what is the current status of those lawsuits? Well, unfortunately for Renee, that lawsuit right now had a decision that was not in their favor that said it had to go into private arbitration. Whereas the other lawsuit, Trandang's lawsuit, is actually going to be a public case. So people will be able to see what happened there. Now, enter onto the scene now, Bethany Frankel, a former Real Housewives star, who

And she's now an advocate for reality stars to come together and unionize. Why isn't reality TV on strike?

I got paid $7,250 for my first season of reality TV and people are still watching those episodes. We've always been the losers, the I'm up here, you're down here to the actresses and actors. During the last writer's strike, we're providing all the entertainment and that's when really the gold rush of reality TV started. How effective has she been?

This is with all due respect to Bethany. But what Bethany did was, I believe it was last summer, she put up an Instagram post saying this is a union. That's not an actual attempt to organize reality stars. Like it was an important statement. So is there a union that stepped in? No, like there isn't a union. Like there are so many different reasons for this. I think the issue of whether reality stars could possibly unionize is infinitely complex. Because they come and go. They don't.

It depends on the show. The Real Housewives are literally stars of that show. They appear season after season. Like I actually think and frankly there are some shows including The Real Housewives that are very contrived where people behave deliberately to sort of act like themselves. But they're pretty much actresses. They have a lot in common. They act out. Right.

But their job is to perform their dramas in a way that's a collaboration with the production. They barely get paid for this, but they are very much like actors. So they're doing a faker kind of show, whereas there are other shows like Love is Blind where –

I feel like the stuff that people are doing, some of it's contrived, but certainly what happens in the pods is authentic. It's a different kind of show. So they'd be organized in different ways. They have different legal statuses. This is just the glimmerings of the beginning of this. And of course, there are ways other than unionization to try to get rights for people.

The thing that there's no doubt to me is that the people who are on reality shows are a vulnerable class of people who are mistreated by the industry in ways that are made invisible to people, including and importantly to fans who love the shows. They genuinely don't know, I think, how these shows are made. And I think it's important that people have rights. And I also think it's important that people educate themselves about what's happening on the shows. ♪

Emily Nussbaum's new piece in The New Yorker is called Is Love is Blind a Toxic Workplace? And you can read it at newyorker.com. She's also got a new book coming out next month about the history of reality television, and it's called Cue the Sun. I'm David Remnick. Thanks for joining us. See you next time.