The Joy of Being a Hater with Justin Ellis
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Before we get going today, I wanted to tell you about another Radiotopia podcast you should be listening to, Song Exploder. Song Exploder is an award-winning show about the creative process behind music. Artists break down one of their songs, letting you hear all the different layers in the recording, from instruments to beats to vocals. And most importantly, they talk about why they made the creative choices they did. Song Exploder is not just for music nerds. It's for anybody who cares about creativity or wants to feel inspired to create something. It's

It's hosted by Rishi Kesh Hirway, who you might know from the podcast Home Cooking or the West Wing Weekly. The episodes are short, about 20 minutes each, and my recommendation is to start with an episode featuring an artist you love. And then listen to one with an artist you don't know at all. There are over 250 episodes with guests like Fleetwood Mac, Madonna, Solange, Beats,

Billy Eilish, Phoebe Bridgers, FK Twigs, The Killers, Dua Lipa, and John Batiste, and more. Each episode is really a miniature portrait of an artist and how their creative mind works, with the song as the lens we see them through. It's also a great way to discover new music. It's a different kind of experience to get introduced to a song this way, learning how and why each piece and idea came together before you hear the whole song at the end.

Find your favorite episode of Song Exploder and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts or at songexploder.net.

Hello and welcome to Normal Gossip. I'm Kelsey McKinney and in each episode of this podcast, we're going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. But first, today I have a very exciting announcement, which is that for the first time in my entire long life, I have managed to keep a secret. And not only have I kept a secret, I have kept a secret for years. It's incredible. I'm so proud of myself.

And that secret is that I have been working on a book about gossip and how we interact with it and why we love it so much. And now I am done with it and I am so proud of it. And I'm proud of myself.

The book is called You Didn't Hear This From Me, and it has personal stories and real gossip and chapters on things like Britney Spears and religion and urban legends and Gilgamesh. Something that's really weird about publishing is that pre-orders of books are super important because they help publishers understand why a book matters and what the audience for it is and how much time and resources they should invest into a project.

I love pre-ordering books because I always forget and then they arrive on publishing day and I'm like, oh my God, a little present I bought for myself. What a treat. So you can pre-order my book wherever books are sold right now and then you'll get it when it comes out, a little treat for yourself in the future. And if you pre-order it from Lost City Books in DC, I will sign it and that link will be in the show notes. Okay, let's move on. I am so excited to have with me this week, Justin Ellis.

Justin Ellis is the projects editor for Defector, where he has the agony and ecstasy of editing both me and Alex. His TV credits include Wyatt Sinek's Problem Areas on HBO and How to Fix a Drug Scandal on Netflix. In his previous lives, he has been a podcast host, a magazine editor, a media business reporter, and a newspaper beat writer. He is currently at work on his first nonfiction book. It's Booked Stay Today, The Cruelty of Nice Folks for Harper. Justin, welcome to the show.

Hello, Kelsey. Hello, Justin. Do you want to tell me what your relationship with gossip is? Start me off with a classic answer. You know how some people are like, well, I turned into like a messy bitch after I've had like a few drinks. Yeah, I don't think it's like that with me. Um,

I'm sure some people would say I'm definitely messy with drinks, but I think it's more like I get heated about something and that's when the Aries comes out. I think it's a lot of the time that it's just like, I'm like, I don't, this isn't, I'm not, it's not who I am. I'm better than that. I go high when they go low. And it's like when someone crosses me, I'm like, let me tell you,

This heifer did me wrong. That's a phrase my mom would always deploy when it's like, you know, someone fucked up real bad. Why? I don't know. I don't know. It's honestly, it took me a very long time in my childhood to be like, oh, that's actually a term for an animal. Yeah.

Because to your mom, it just meant like someone who had messed up. It's someone that had crossed her in such an egregious way or had fucked up in another way that it's just like, oh, you know, so that's how I bring it out. I think it comes out for me when I am just like...

extremely pissed, or perhaps just at some sort of like low level where it's like, oh, the fucks are gone. Guess what? It's now dagger hours. Right. So dagger hours can either be achieved by enough pressure and animosity or, you know, two glasses of wine.

That's right. Yeah. I love this phrase from your mom. Was she a gossip, though? Because that kind of – Oh, yes. Oh, she was. Okay. Oh, yes. Because that could also be just deploying secrets and then reaching a breaking point like you're talking about. No. My mom was definitely a gossip. And I think that she –

enjoyed being someone who could collect other people's gossip and then spread the gossip and be known as someone who keeps information, but also was known to be a person that someone that you do not cross because, because she had it all. Exactly. Exactly. Right. When you collect all the whispers, you do not get fucked with. You are not someone to trifle with. And, um,

My mom liked to do that, but my mom also liked to do that to protect people and like to defend the people that she loved. And like she worked as an educator for all of her career and was like also extremely pro-union and also extremely pro-looking after workers who were marginalized. So it's just, it was a lot of like...

getting into situations where it's like, well, what you're not going to do is what you just did. And let me deploy these whispers that I just kept in my back pocket about all the shit that you have done. And once you have been read, we will come back to the first point in all this. So you studied under a master in terms of like deploying secrets. I did. Do you, I truly hate to ask you this because every writer hates this, but you are working on a book.

Is there any gossip in the book? Does gossip play a role in the stories that you're telling? So my book is about the conditions that led to George Floyd's death in my hometown. I grew up in Minneapolis, Minnesota. And I

I wrote something after that happened that was like, this was always going to happen. And my reason for that is that like the conditions there have been a kind of low key simmering, polite racism for decades and decades. And so, yeah,

There's for many years just like this uneasy living side by side that happens in Minneapolis, even though it is like, hmm, that's weird. Like, why can't black families live in this neighborhood? We'll never know, even though the city and its forebearers and its politicians have said how much they care about inclusivity and like making strides for all families, you know, regardless of race, creed and color. Yeah.

So, yeah, I mean, gossip plays into that in the same way that, you know, I think for a lot of Black families, it's like, you can move to this neighborhood, you can't move to that neighborhood. You can trust this person that you work with, but you cannot trust this person anymore.

And even sometimes you can trust or can't trust this politician. And when you just say everybody should get along and play nice is when really horrible shit happens to people either out of view and then sometimes just in front of the whole world. Yeah. I have been told that you brought a gossip for me. Is that true? I did. Oh, my God. Great. And it is, we'll call it a parent's story. Okay, great. Yeah.

And this involves a couple. We will call them Ben and Leslie. Okay. And Ben and Leslie live a very nice life. They have a young daughter who is under the age of 10. Okay. And Ben and Leslie become friends with a family that's a couple of doors down because they're kids like each other. Great. It's very sweet. That is sweet. So Ben and Leslie are...

hanging out with this other family and they're doing some drinking. Yeah. As one does. As one does. Everybody's just hanging out. They're having a good time. And, uh, the mom in the couple tells them that, oh, well, you know, she's, um, they're good enough friends now. She's had a couple of drinks and she's like, you know, I don't know if I've ever told you guys, but, um,

I'm bisexual. Okay. And they're like, oh, all right. You know, that's all right. Whatever. You know, like. Thank you. Great. That's the information. And, you know, just in the conversation of talking about this, Ben and Leslie are like, sure. You know, like, you know, that's great for you. And like, Leslie's like, oh, sure. You know, I think I'm probably on that spectrum myself. Right. And so. Yeah.

the mom sees this as a opening and sort of questions like, well, why, Ben, have you always been keeping Leslie down? Why have you not been letting her explore this side of herself? Now, Ben and Leslie are very much like, I think perhaps

It's time for everyone to put down their high noon and take a deep breath. Wait, I have a clarifying question. Yes. This bisexual mother, she is married to a man in this story? She's married to a man in this story. Okay, great. Continue. This continues, though, despite everyone saying, whoa, let's put down our high noons. Yeah.

To the point where now the other mom is just actively trying to hit on Leslie. Yeah. I was about to say, why are you giving this piece of information in such a, like, presentational manner if you don't intend to do anything with it? Like, this is a move. It's a move. It's a move. You're just putting it out there, putting it in the pond. Yeah. And so they, Ben and Leslie, are able to excuse themselves finally. They're like, you know what? Okay, well. Okay. It's been a...

It's been a good time. It's been real. It's been fun, but it hasn't been real fun. Goodbye. Yeah. And, you know, the following day, they're able to have a sober conversation and be like, whoa. Yeah. Okay. Maybe we shouldn't have filled the kiddie pool with margaritas. Like, that's fine. Yeah.

You know, everybody's in good. Everybody's in a good place. Like it was a little silly, but whatever. That's fine. This is also such a nightmare to me as a non-parent. I imagine it is hard to find a child who your child is friends with whose parents you actually like. So it's like you have found this couple and now she has demolished this by force.

throwing, you know, vibes at you. Kelsey, you have no idea. Okay, great. As I am discovering as the parent of now 15 month old, yeah, you find yourself in situations where you're like, am I going to become parent friends with this person? Or is there going to be a kind of cool association where we relate to each other as parents? Um,

And that's not always a fun thing to negotiate. But you are correct. When you find some people that you're like, oh, you're kind of cool. Like, it would be great if we could actually hang out and our children could hang out. And now this woman has put the moves on you and ruined your friendship. Maybe. However, these families continue to hang out. A little bit of time passes. They are...

hanging out together again at a bar. You know, maybe it's like a little backyard situation. Everyone's got their patio drinks. Everyone's having a good time. And they're like, you know, like, hey, it's getting late in the day. Like, why don't we all just go back and we'll all go hang out at our place? And they're like, yeah, it's fine. It's in the neighborhood. And you're like, we obviously live a few doors away from each other. It's fine. It's great. It's whatever. And the mom actually has indulged to the point where she actually has just crashed, gone to bed,

So the dad at this point is still up and is like, well, we're still here. Let's keep having some drinks. How's everybody feeling? We're feeling good. We're feeling right. I'm feeling scared. That's when the dad, after he's poured some fresh drinks, is just like, you know, let me tell you guys a little something. Ben, Leslie, I've come to trust you both and enjoy the company of both of you so much. I think it's important for you to know that I'm bisexual. Oh, my God. This couple. So.

Ben and Leslie now find themselves in yet another awkward situation. Propositioning situation. They are being propositioned once again. It is a little bit of an ice storm, key party situation in their midst. And that is when Ben and Leslie say, look, okay, we got to – we're going to take – Bye. We're going to take little Timmy and, you know, school night, whatever excuse. Yeah, for sure. And decide to –

Decide to go home. That is the right call, I think, in this scenario. And Ben and Leslie, while trying to be good friends and good neighbors and also...

Need I remind you? The kids are friends. Yeah. Yes. They come back to the house the next day and they bring over some breakfast sandwiches to say like, hey, how's everybody doing? Wild night. Uh-huh. The other parent's household just is completely oblivious to what they are talking about. What do you mean? Like, what happened? What? And so now Ben and Leslie feel like they have information that perhaps they shouldn't have or that perhaps this couple doesn't.

needs to have together yeah you know how they always say that um people in relationships begin to like look like each other and have the same mannerisms over time because they spend so much time together it's like very funny that this couple could have developed the same method for hitting on people like extramaritally like they're both like i'm bisexual would you like to kiss

And Ben and Leslie are like, what? Like, I've seen this film before. No, thank you. I've watched this episode. I don't like how this episode ends. Yeah, no, thank you. Would you like to hear the story that I have prepared for you? Oh, my God, Kelsey. I cannot wait to hear the story that you have prepared for me.

I have been kept in the dark force so goddamn long. Has it been taunting you? You would think that it is a fucking state secret on the normal gossip team. Yeah.

Yeah, well, so for a little behind the scenes, usually you come to all of our run throughs and you help us pick all the stories. And so your hands are in everything. And we decided when we decided you were going to come on that you shouldn't know anything about the story because it would be more fun and then you could be a real guest. So I'm sorry that you had to go through this torture, but I hope that it will be worth it. They just put a blindfold on me is what happened. And they're like, yeah.

He's been blindfolded for months. I've been blindfolded and left in some sort of closet situation. Yeah. I'm sorry that happened to you. But now you get to come out.

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Hosted by Maria Garcia, this is My Devo, an Apple original podcast produced by Futuro Studios. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts. I want you to imagine that you are in an exurb. Also, you're in the South.

So it's hot. It's humid. It's like so hot and humid that your car has condensation on it. No, that's right. That's right. Am I wearing cargo shorts and driving a Tacoma? Is that like what it is? No, thank God. No, that's not the situation. Okay, great. But you are driving through a bunch of strip malls. You're driving, you're driving. Finally, you find the strip mall that you're looking for. In the parking lot of this strip mall, all SUVs.

Of course. Yeah. Why would there be anything other than an SUV there? Some of the SUVs have those little stick figure families on the back of them. You got to let them know. You got to let them know that you have at least three kids and a dog. Yes. And some of them have those yellow yield signs that say baby on board. You have arrived at your destination. You have arrived at Funfinity. What?

Which I'm guessing is filled with nothing but fucking trampolines and chutes and ladders and all sorts of things that like potentially look dangerous to you and your children. Probably a trapeze of some kind. You want essentially to send your child to.

through some sort of like Navy SEAL course, but make it fun. Well, you're getting a little ahead of us. I know. We're going to come back to that. Okay. So our friend of a friend this week, her name is Gloria. She's 41 years old. She's an interior designer. She's always wearing like a bold print wrap dress and like huge glasses. I love it. Go off, Gloria. Gloria is a hater by birth.

You guys know me so well. She loves to be a critic. It is her passion. It is her birthright. She loves it. So no one was more surprised than her when at 34 she fell in love. Comes for us all. She lived in a big city. And so for love, she married her wife, Taylor. And they moved to the South and they decided to have a baby.

They go through this whole rigmarole of like getting a sperm donor, doing IUI, and now they have Emma. Gloria loves Emma. She loves being a mom. But when she envisioned being a mother, she envisioned like wood block toys and like cool mom friends. And now she is here in a smaller city in the South where she and Taylor have not been able to find one cool gay couple friend. And now she's at the most stressful place on earth, Funfinity. Yeah.

Funfinity is an indoor playground. Shocking. I'm going to describe this setup, but there is a lot going on. You come in through the main doors. There is a concession stand with cotton candy and hot dogs and shit. Yes. And then there are three main areas to the Funfinity. In the center is a little area that has like walls around it. And this is for the littlest kids.

Then there are two other areas. One for littler kids with small slides and a seesaw and a ball pit. And then there is the jungle. The jungle is like a McDonald's play place on steroids. It is very tall. It has tons of protective thinning. It has giant slides and it has trampolines. What do you think Funfinity smells like? It's so much vomit and urine. It is the pervasive...

smell of a scented yankee candle yes um but it's an aerosol version of the yankee candle like the minute you said snack bar i was like oh that's the fuel yes that's that's what gets the kids all raged up and then comes flying out once they start getting flung around the room yes it also smells like antiseptic because they're always cleaning and cotton candy

Also at Funfinity in the back, there are private rooms that you can rent for birthday parties. Obviously.

The birthday rooms carry a sense of trouble and are also a sense of tension in our family. Because the first day that our family came to Funfinity, Taylor, like in an effort to get Emma excited, was like, Emma, maybe you could have your birthday here. But since then, they have learned that it's expensive and also they hate Funfinity. So they're just kind of hoping that Emma has forgotten that she could have her birthday here.

The problem with this plan is that every 45 minutes, a voice comes over the intercom that's like, Hey kids, have the most magical birthday ever. Ask your mom if you can have your party at Funfinity. The only other announcement that ever comes over the loudspeaker is a code atom, which means to block the doors because they've got a runner.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a jailbreak. How are you feeling at this point? I'm terrified. Yeah. I'm absolutely terrified. Although this is deeply familiar to me because growing up in Minnesota, indoor play spaces were very big because you might have heard that the weather certain times of the years can kill a man. Yeah.

And so there's just a lot of spaces where it's just like we have essentially created like Geodome. But there's all, you know, so there's a fake park, but also there's an ice skating rink. And also there's like a ropes course and all of these things. Notoriously, there is the Mall of America. And I may or may not have worked there as a teenager in the theme park at the center of Mall of America. So, yes. No.

Am I feeling nervous right now? Yes. Funfinity for Gloria is a last resort. It's like a panic attack factory for her. It is also a place that can reach capacity. So if Funfinity is full, you can't go in. So there's on like a weekend or a day where it's really gross outside, there are always parents like waiting in their cars or waiting on these picnic tables outside. Their kids like getting more and more worked up by the minute.

Today, it is going to rain. And Emma is very hyper. Gloria is like, I do not want to go to Funfinity. And I also do not want to put on Frozen 2 for the 500th time. So I am in a difficult situation. She never would have agreed to go. Like this woman would have written a play before she went to Funfinity, except that Emma has a new bit. And Emma's new bit is very funny. Emma is three years old. Three years old. I have learned as a great age to have a bit.

And this morning, when Gloria said they couldn't go to the playground because of the rain, Emma did her bit. She put both her hands up and she went, hey, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. And Gloria laughed. And then Emma said, we have to go to Funfinity. Oh, see, that's that's the problem right there is like parenting is it could be super challenging and like exhausting and wreck you in so many ways. And then your kid unexpectedly dies.

picks you up at a certain point by doing something incredibly sweet or funny. And you're like, oh, you're a little person and you're the best being. And so I sympathize because I would just be like, oh, that's you got it. And Gloria laughed, which means you're like in a little bit of trouble, right? You laughed at your kids bit. And now they are here at Funfinity.

And they have a problem because Funfinity is very crowded and it's going to rain today. So it's packed. Usually this is not a problem because Funfinity has a VIP program. No, no, no. Shut up. The VIP program gets five people into Funfinity on a fast pass and it gets you early procurement for busy days.

It also lets you rent the birthday rooms. So it doesn't even give you the birthday room for your kid's birthday. You just have the opportunity to pay for it. It's just like everything in our busted economy. You have the opportunity to get this thing if you pay more. Yeah. You can have all of this for the low, low annual fee of $900. Shut the fuck up.

Shut the fuck up. Oh, boy. This is the wrong day for me to hear that. You could also pay $80 a month if you prefer that. Oh, well, in that case, if it's just an installment program, that's fine. Yeah, $900 is the discount you get by paying annually. That's right. Obviously. That's just that's epitomics right there. Gloria, being a born and raised hater, did not want to buy the VIP pass. She was like, this is deranged.

I don't want to do this. It's crazy. But one day in a panic, Taylor took Emma to Funfinity and it was really crowded and Taylor bought it.

Yeah. Because Taylor was like, well, you know, it's between $14 and $20 every time and they have surge pricing. So it's more expensive on this. Surge pricing. Surge pricing. I love it. So it's more expensive in the summer and on weekends when it's already busy. And also I was freaking out. Yeah. It pays for itself, essentially. Basically. You simply have to bring your kid to Funfinity all the time. All the time. Every weekend. Every weekend.

You're hitting Funfinity. So Taylor bought the pass, but this does not help us today because Taylor usually takes them into Funfinity and Taylor has to work. So Taylor has the pass with her. So Gloria can't even flash it and skip the line. She has to wait with the schlubs like everyone else.

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Absolutely not. No, you gotta, listen, you gotta call up your boo and be like, honey, can you just run? I'm gonna pull up. I need you to run downstairs with the Funfinity pass because I am not trying to have a heated moment in mind for the Funfinity. Okay.

Finally, they get in. They wait with the schlubs. They get in. And Gloria is like, I have a migraine immediately. The only good thing about Funfinity in Gloria's mind is that all of the coffee is free for adults. So she gets her coffee and she sits on a foam block and she watches Emma run around. The only time she has to get up at all is when some older kids are bossing around some littler kids and she has to get up and be like, stop it.

She's watching Emma. Emma's in the jungle. She's having a great time. And incredibly, she seems to be hitting it off with another little girl. Like, Emma is making a friend. And this is big for Emma because Emma never makes a friend. That's because Emma's smart. What do you mean it's because Emma's smart? Emma's discerning. That's fine. You want your kids to be discerning. She is a discerning child. And Gloria and Taylor are kind of like, well, we can't really tell her that it's bad that she hasn't made friends because we haven't really made any friends either. So we're kind of in a conundrum as a family. Yeah.

Yeah. Then she's watching her daughter play with this other little girl and she sees a woman, clearly this little girl's mom, talking to them. The woman is wearing one of those like insane NASCAR shirts that has like faces on it. Yep, that's right. But all of the faces are Missy Elliott. Now hold on. And Gloria is like, hmm, uh? Now hold on. Uh? Listen, we all remember that time. She's like, this is ridiculous, but it's ridiculous in a way that I like.

So she's looking a little more. This woman has a septum piercing. Gloria's like, this is the first cool woman I've seen at Funfinity literally ever. And I have never seen this woman before. So her brain is like friendship. Friendship.

You're Gloria. You're kind of far away. Yes. Do you go over there? Oh, absolutely. You're going. Listen, I will fess up right now to being like the lifeguard style of parenting where it's just like I'm at the edge of the pool pacing. Yeah, I'm ready. Just being like, what's up over there? Yeah. What's up with that shit? Yeah.

Gloria stands up. She's like, I'm going over there. I'm making a friend. This is a big day for me. But as she stands up, this woman is like picking up her daughter and they're both waving goodbye to Emma.

Uh-oh. And Gloria's like, shit. So she's like trying to get across the Funfinity really fast, but there's like kids everywhere. And you can't like Heisman block a kid. So it takes her a really long time. But you can hurdle them because they're small. Yes. So she's going fast and like weaving. That's right. But by the time she gets to Emma, the woman and her daughter are gone. And Emma is somewhere up in the jungle. That's right. And you've lost your child now. You've fallen. Yeah.

You're Gloria. You want to befriend this woman. You have zero leads. What do you do? I mean, I think the only thing that you can do here, and I know this idea because of living in a city with a lot of parks, but it's just like you are like, well, I guess we're going to go back to that park on a regular basis.

And hope that we see this other cool parent some other time. Because there's not, I mean, what are you going to do? Like stand at the window and try to memorize their license plate number? Yeah. And fortunately, you've got that DMV hookup so you can have the plate. Right. You're not going to like bribe a high school kid at the counter of Funfinity to be like, who is that? That's crazy. Yeah.

Or is it, Kelsey? Or is that just being a shrewd parent? Gloria's like, whatever. Like, I tried my best. I'm going to describe this woman to Taylor. Hopefully between the two of us, we can run into her again. Emma has fun. She's ready to go. They're leaving. On the way out, Emma's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. We have to get cotton candy. And Gloria's like, you're right. We had a brush with friendship that failed. We deserve cotton candy.

So they get their cotton candy. They eat it. They get in the car. Gloria's like, who is your new friend? And Emma's like, oh, her name is Olivia. And Gloria's like, Olivia? Okay, now I have a name, right? That's more progress.

Did she by any chance get a DOB on Olivia? Yeah. You know what preschool she goes to? Just like a social by any chance? You guys barely know numbers, but did you get her social? Is there anything that you think you can do with a three-year-old's first name to find this woman? Nothing that you would want on your internet search history, no. There's something I haven't told you about Funfinity. Here we go.

The culture around Funfinity is so expansive that it also exists online. Of course there is an online fandom. And of course there is. So what? We're going to funfinity.usernet.org? Cute idea. No. There is not one, not two, but three important Funfinity Facebook groups. Okay. So we're back to Facebook. We're back to Facebook. Okay.

Are you ready to learn about these groups? Let's hear it. Okay. Let's hear it. There is a main group. The main group has everyone in it. Okay. So wait, is this like, has there been a splintering? Is this like when a church separates? Oh, yeah, baby. Oh, boy. There is a main group. The main group, very chaotic, but it's like mostly used for people losing stuff, right? Like they're like, did anyone see this blankie? Did anyone see this bunny? Right? Like whatever. Right.

The main group also has a lot of rules. The rules are like positive vibes only. No photos of kids who aren't yours. That's right. No cursing. No selling stuff. Interesting. The main group is run by a bunch of like type A do-gooder like teachers pet women. And they very heavily monitor the group. They were like founding members of the Funfinity Fast Pass.

And they are not putting up with anything. Then there is another group. The splinter group. There are two splinter groups. The first splinter group, private. It is called Funfinity VIPs. Yeah, absolutely. For this group, you must submit a photo of your Funfinity FastPass card to get in. Mm-hmm.

Along with a bank statement, I'm assuming. Yeah, for sure. That's right. This group is mainly used as like an underground ticket dealing center for Funfinity like bonus passes. So like you want to throw a birthday party and you need extra passes into Funfinity. How much will you pay your fellow VIPs for those? I love capitalism so much. It's a black market just to make sure that three extra friends can get into Jimmy's birthday. Yes.

Gloria is in the main group, but she's not in the VIP group because you have to submit your photo. So only Taylor is in the VIP group. But Gloria is in the other splinter group. The other splinter group. The other splinter group, I'm assuming, is something like Occupy Funfinity. The other splinter group is called Bad Moms of Scumfinity. Okay. All right. Okay. Okay.

All right, I'm perking up again. This is a group for and by haters. My people. It is private. Absolutely. When you ask to join, you have to agree to the terms. The terms are real haters only. Absolutely. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

That's right. No takesies-backsies. You cannot delete your posts. That's a coward move. It's a coward move. And you have to be prepared that someone might talk about you, right? You have to be able to handle it. It's a hater group. Whoa. Why are the haters like, listen, you're going to catch some strays. Watch your ass.

I think really what they're trying to do is just protect Hay Day as an art in the group. Hay Day is an art form. Let's be honest. So Glory is in this one and the main one. Taylor is in VIPs and the main one. Knowing these three exist, do you think you could use any of these to help find Emma's friend?

Well, obviously, you would start with the haters group. Okay. Why? You're trying to find your kid's friend by locating what you have to only assume is another cool parent who seems like they might have some hater vibes. Gloria is like, I'm going to text Taylor. Ask Taylor what she thinks. Where should I post this?

It is important to note here, Taylor does not know that the haters group exists. Oh, okay. So here's, here's, all right, so let's take it. We're going to break for a moment here, kids. So the thing about relationships and about parenting is it's all built on a foundation of communication, trust. That's how you build the commitment.

through the years and being able to text your loved one saying, hey, if you love me, you will let me be free and pop off in the haters group for funfinity. So this is the problem in their relationship is that Taylor does not care that Gloria is like consuming drama online. But Taylor is like, I don't want anything to do with that because she is an earnest girl. Gloria is alone in her hate. Yeah.

Gloria texts Taylor and she's like, do you think I should post this? Like Emma made a friend. It's so exciting. And Taylor's like, that is so exciting. I'm thrilled to hear it. I do think you should post it, but I don't think we should post it in the VIP room because they're like on one right now about lobbying for exclusive hours. And Gloria's like, okay, great. So she posts in the main room and she's like, here's a photo of our daughter, Emma. She made a friend today named Olivia and we would love to set up a play date. Like I'm not sure who her parents are.

After this, there are lots of parents who have children named Olivia. Very popular name, apparently. Every photo of an Olivia, Gloria is showing to Emma. And Emma is like, no, none of those are my friend. I'm sorry. Hold on. You're doing, you're basically doing a perp walk for your toddler. Do you like, it's like hinge. Can you take a look at these? Can you take a look at these? I want you to take a look at these sketches. What do you think? Which one of these was your friend? Take your time.

Take your time. I don't know why you also sound like a cop in 1980s New York City. She does it, but this doesn't work. Of course not. Like she does the little, she slides them through and Emma's like, none of those are my friend. Emma goes down for her nap. Gloria navigates over to the haters group.

In the haters group today, there is a drama. It is a screenshot from the main group showing six elementary school kids with their arms crossed at the top of the jungle. And everybody is like, those kids were bullying little kids today. Like, we hate those kids. And they're like going off. Right? I love it. This is my culture. That's right. Just making a picture of like a bunch of small children. That's totally normal behavior. Gloria's like, I literally had to stop them today from pushing around a toddler.

She loves being a hater. Can you explain the joy of hating to those who might not be haters? Wow. This feels very pointed. This feels so pointed, you guys. The joy of being a hater when you really drill down to it is the sense of knowing better, right? It's that feeling of like, I know better than you. And whether knowing better is like,

some sort of like deeper cultural knowledge or social norm. It is a thing that you hold on to with such fierce righteousness. Yes.

That is central to the hater theology. The other thing that's central to the hater theology is long memory. Yes. Like, haters basically will create a scribe written in blood of anyone that has crossed them or their own, especially if they've crossed their children. Like, it is questionable whether you should be popping off on a picture of a bunch of six-year-olds.

But at the same time, a child once pushed my daughter at preschool and I was ready to – Throw hands. I was like, I'm not going to fight you now, but maybe out in the parking lot. The other thing about being a hater, in my opinion, is that a lot of your hating you do internally, right?

So the nice thing about this group is it's an outlet, right? You can let your hate live. You can breathe your hate into the open where it can fill the room and become a noxious gas that slowly kills everyone. Everyone else's complaints, you could have them too. Now you have them. That's hot. That's hot.

And so you can meet on hate match. Like, that's great. That's so beautiful. Yeah, exactly. Over the next few weeks, Gloria shows more photos of Olivia's to Emma. None of these photos are correct. Meanwhile, in the haters group, she is fighting against bare feet, against crumbly snacks, against kids bop, for bluey and for hand sanitizer. It's about a month out from Emma's birthday. Oh, God. Emma's birthday is a very popular birthday week.

They try everything. They're like, Emma, what about a pizza party? What about the beach? What about ice skating? And Emma is just going, hey, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. We have to go to Funfinity. Oh, the bit. Now the bit's getting a little stale. You're like, I need you to work up some new material, Emma. The problem is...

They can rent the room because they're VIP members, but they have to invite everyone at Emma's preschool because that's one of the rules. And so they need more passes than they are given. They go to the VIP group. They're like, hello, we're looking to buy extra passes for this weekend. They are having a hard time because it's January. So the weather is bad and it's raining. And so even after all that trading with a week until Emma's birthday, they're still down a few tickets. Yeah.

What do you want to do here? I don't know. You have, you're probably going to have to bribe somebody. Yeah. You're probably going to have to like run up on one of those teenagers that run shit down at Funfinity and say, listen, I'm going to slowly slip this $20 bill across the table to you. And you're going to look the other way as I shepherd in like six extra children. Yeah.

Their names don't need to be in the system. That's a great strategy, and I think it would have worked. But what they do is they decide we're going to go to Funfinity and we're going to politic around a little bit. Like, not everyone is on the VIP Facebook group. We could probably just ask a few people if we can buy their extra passes for next weekend, and this will work. Hustle them in the same way that somebody would doing Showtime on a New Year's Day. And say, ladies and gentlemen, can I please get your attention? Yeah.

This is my lovely daughter, Emma. It is her birthday next week. We would very much like to be able to give her a splendid time. Please see it in your hearts to give us your extra passes. Thank you.

This is basically what happens. They go. They go to Funfinity. Taylor goes up in the jungle with Emma because Emma's like, come up here with me. So Taylor goes. Gloria is leaning against a wall by the birthday rooms. She's gabbing with someone. Someone is like, oh, yeah, I totally have two passes you can have. She's like, excellent. So she Venmo's this woman like $30. She gets her two tickets. She's like, I only need two more. Perfect. Perfect.

When she hears one of the kids coming out of this birthday room bragging about how this birthday party has cupcakes with peanut butter. Can you imagine a problem here? Well, the first thing that comes to my mind, parent brain, sadly, is like peanut allergy.

Yes, that is correct. Peanut butter is not allowed at Funfinity. Yeah, that's a crime. That's the crime against the state. I'm surprised they don't lock down the whole Funfinity. Yeah, kids are allergic to peanut butter and kids are gross. So they're always touching stuff without washing their hands. It's just smeared with Skippy on every single surface. The choosy moms. There's jif everywhere. The choosy moms.

jift up the joint and the kids as it is are already just like licking each other's eyeballs and like yes it's too late it's at that point it's like outbreak yes gloria turns around and in there is like this kid's birthday party there's a mom like standing in her way who has like infinitely long hair like it's so long maybe she could sit on it and gloria is like this is so bad so she like snaps a photo of the cupcakes through the window and she puts stickers over all the kids faces

Oh, no. No. No.

People are mad. They're commenting, no peanut butter, no peanut butter. Okay. I think that this is not going to end up in the place where Gloria wants it to end up. Right now, though, she's on a high like no other. She's like, I'm queen of the bad moms of scumfinity group. I'm living it up. Emma and Taylor come down from the jungle. She puts her phone away.

Emma's like, I want you to come play in the ball pit with me. So she goes. They're in the ball pit. Weird Katy Perry kids bop is playing. Gloria feels like she's high as a kite on her hating, on this whole situation, on the smell of cotton candy. That's right. By the time they get out of the ball pit to go home, she's exhausted. But Taylor seems really happy. And so she's like, Taylor, what's up? And Taylor's like, I think I found us a potential friend. Yeah.

And Gloria's like, oh my God, really? And Taylor's like, yeah, she's gay. She's so cool. Her daughter is adorable and Emma's age. That's right. Keep going. Gloria's like, hell yeah, that's great. I can't wait to meet them. It's happening. And Taylor's like, yeah, and they're going to give us their extra tickets for next Saturday because they're going to be out of town. So now we have all the tickets we need. Great. Gloria is thrilled. Predestined friendship. Taylor is like, wow. She's looking at this woman's Instagram on her phone.

She's like, maybe when we're best friends, she can teach me how to get my hair that long. And Gloria's like, what? And Taylor shows her the Instagram on her phone. And it is the mom with the long hair from the birthday party. And the other mom in the photo is the cool mom from before. And Taylor's like, look how cute their daughter is. And she shows Gloria, who is like adorable. I've definitely seen that kid before. And Emma from the back is like Olivia. Yeah.

And Taylor's like, no, sweetie, that's Olive. But Gloria knows what she means. That's Emma's friend. It was Olive, not Olivia. And now the hater finds themself... In a dilemma. In a dilemma. Yeah, now you have a problem because you have talked shit about this woman in the haters group. And now she is your daughter and your wife's potential best friend. That's right. And if I may recall...

You cannot delete anything. Bingo. Oh my God, Alex, remember the week that you moved to a completely different state and then also at the same time we had a company retreat that was in New York City? Yeah.

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You know, we do ads for Rocket Money pretty consistently every month. You would think by now I would have canceled every subscription that I don't use. But guess what? I haven't. Rocket Money reminded me recently that I was subscribed to something I didn't even know I was subscribed to. But it's because it was like an annual subscription. I unsubscribed. And by I, I mean Rocket Money unsubscribed for me. Alex, is this relatable to you?

It is so relatable to me. I would like never check my bank account unless I really, really have to because it gives me so much anxiety. And is there a reason that you check your bank account now? Yeah, I get these awesome emails from Rocket Money that are like, hey, FYI, this is how much you spent last week. And it feels like a gentle person holding my hand as I go to my bank account. Oh, yeah.

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I mean, this is a multi-tiered problem. Yeah, it sure is. You fucked up real bad here. And this is what I'm getting at. Okay, come closer, listener. This is why communication is essential to a loving and healthy relationship. Yeah. Gloria is freaking out, right? On the drive home, she's freaking out. And she's like, okay, fine.

The problem is Taylor doesn't know about the haters group. And now I have been a hater in that group in a way that could come back to bite us. That's exactly right. And I felt fine about not confessing about the haters group because Taylor said that she didn't want to know about any of that shit. But now this directly impacts her. So I need to tell her.

Okay. When they get home, Gloria makes Taylor a gin martini. I was just going to say pour a glass of wine, pour a big old glass of Shiraz and just say, hey, babe, you know, I've been doing some thinking. You know, it starts doing the foot rub and it's like, you know, it's been such a long day and I appreciate you so much. You're so close. She sits down and she's like,

you know that I love you so much. Oh God. And that you're an amazing mother and a great partner. And Taylor, your hair shines. And Taylor's sipping her Jim Martini. And she's like, uh-huh. And Gloria's like, I need to tell you something. And I don't think you're going to like it, but I need you to listen with generosity and,

And Grace. And Taylor is like, Jesus, what did you do? And Gloria's like, I vented online about a parent at Funfinity. And I think that parent was the parent that you made friends with. And I'm really sorry.

Okay. I think we got to give that apology. Pretty good. High marks. Gloria didn't fuck around with that. She got straight to the point. There was no, if I have offended you, I apologize. It was, this is what happened. I'm sorry. I take responsibility. I am sorry. Can I refill your glass? Yes. Taylor is like, okay. Did you post that on your close friends or something? Yeah.

And Gloria is like, well, no, I posted it in a Funfinity Facebook group. And Taylor's like, but you can't be negative in there. And Gloria is like, not there either. And Taylor's like, where? And she's like, in the haters group. And Taylor's like, there's a haters group? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Let me take you to hell. And Gloria's like, my sweet, sweet summer child. Yes, there's a haters group. And you said you didn't want to know about it. So I never told you about it. But here it is, right? She like shows her the group. She shows her the post. She's like, I'm so sorry. Like, I didn't know that this was the woman that you talked about. And I do think it's fucked up to bring peanut butter in there.

That's another good defense. This is another good defense. It's a good defense to be like, listen, I was basically the surgeon general. Yeah. Yeah. Like I was looking out for the health and safety. I was basically like a food safety inspector here. People should be applauding me. And Taylor.

is looking at this haters group and she's like you know scrolling a little and she's like yeah I did not want to know that this existed like it upsets me to see this she's like but and you know what like I totally understand like that happens like it is a problem but you can just delete the post like just delete the post oh Taylor Taylor

What must it be like to live in the clouds and bask in the sunlight? To have flowers pop up wherever you walk? Gloria's like, sweetie, I love you so much, but I cannot delete this post. And Taylor's like, it's a Facebook post. And Gloria's like, it's against the rules. And Taylor's like, I don't care about these rules. Just delete it. Do you delete the post if you're Gloria? Yeah.

This is some foundational relationship shit because no human being can in a good conscience explain to their partner like why they can't. Why some online forum is more important than anything else. Yes.

So yeah, you gotta just be like, all right, well, I guess I'm just like yeeting myself forever from this group. And I'm just pulling the chute. Yeah. Goodbye forever, haters. Gloria is like, while I still think that I'm right in her head, she's like, while I still think that I'm right and that it's wrong to delete this post, I love my wife so much and she will never understand this. So like, goodbye, it goes. That's right. Internal hater monologue. Let's go. Yes. She deletes it. Taylor is happy.

But this creates chaos. That's right. The next time she logs into the Facebook group, it is a tsunami. People are freaking out about the deleted post. She has offended the haters. God, you had to yeet yourself. You couldn't just delete this post. You got to be like, I'm gone. I'm leaving the planet. Someone has posted a screenshot of the post in the group with the caption, nothing gets deleted. So it's basically still there. Yes.

Now everyone is dunking on her. They're like, it's baby shit to delete a post. Like it's against the rules. Grow up. And they're also like, this is so mild for things that people complain about in this group. Like this is a legitimate complaint. You didn't even threaten this person with bodily harm. Why did you delete this? You weren't even like making fun of someone. This is a real, a real problem. Do you respond? No.

Oh, yeah. You have to just be like, listen, I popped off. Yeah. And that is our right as haters. However, I love my spouse and my family more than I will ever love any of all y'all hatin' asses. So goodbye, goodbye.

Gloria decides, you know, the Internet has a short memory. This will be gone in two days. Oh, OK. No. She's like, whatever. I can be embarrassed. I can be dunked on like I'm a hater. I can take it. And in the meantime, they talk to Olive's moms who are their new potential best friends. And they're like, yeah, we're out of town that weekend. You can totally have our passes. They get the passes they need.

They can invite everyone to Emma's birthday party and it goes perfectly. Emma has the best time. We're almost at the end. How do you feel? I know something is coming. And Gloria should know something is coming. Because you...

Look, you got away with the objective of like having a happy birthday. And that's great. And that's perhaps all that matters. However, it's like the reaper still waits. Yes, exactly. Gloria feels a lot of anxiety. A week after Emma's birthday, the moms decide to go on a double date. Oh, no. They go to a Mexican restaurant. Oh, fuck.

Fuck. They're going to pursue the... They get big margaritas. No. They're gabbing. Okay. Gloria is sitting across from the cool mom with the septum piercing. Turns out her name is Phoebe. They're really hitting it off. They're having a great time. But Gloria is like haunted by her posts. Just a single bead of sweat coming down her face. Do you confess to your sins?

Not on couple date one. No, you can't. They're really vibing though. They're vibing. But like that is like, that is so many dinners and margaritas and like possible like family trips down the road to be like,

You know, originally, that's, that's, this is the type of shit where people even in friend groups would say, like, you know, I used to hate your ass. You know, like, oh, I couldn't stand you. You don't, you can't say that the first time out. I agree with you. Gloria orders them another round. And she's like, Phoebe. This is all coming full circle. The full circle of, see, kids never have extra drinks in the group of other parents. She has a second drink.

Keep it white wine. Keep it white wine. Keep it social. She's like, Phoebe, I have to tell you something. And Phoebe slurps her little mark and she leans forward and she's like, I'm a bad mom too. And Gloria is tipsy and she's nervous. And she's like, did you just call me a bad mom? And Phoebe's like, no, no, no, no, no. A bad mom of scumfinity. I'm in the group. Yeah.

She's picking up that vibe on day one. You don't rock a Super Duper Fly, Misty's shirt, and not have a high possibility or propensity for that. You needed to dig deeper there. Gloria is like, dude, I'm so sorry. I was just being a hater. I don't know you. She's like, I totally get it if you're mad at me and don't want to associate with me. That's totally fine. But Taylor needs a friendship. Yeah.

So, like, please don't let this affect your relationship with her. And Phoebe is like, oh, I'm not mad that you posted. I'm mad that you deleted. Oh, no.

Real fucking haters. No. Real fucking haters respect the game. That's what this shit was. Phoebe was like, you didn't respect the game. Yeah. Phoebe's like, real haters don't delete. You let us all down. And Gloria's like, God damn it. He's like, you have to stand in that. Like, you got to own it. And Gloria's like, Taylor made me delete it. I'm not a hater.

This is like Phoebe just bringing out the ceremonial hater's knife and being like, did you forget about the pact? Yeah. Did you forget about your true callings? I don't care who your first love is. I don't care what your family situation, your beloved. Fuck that. You are a hater first until the very last. Phoebe's like, everybody makes mistakes.

And Gloria's like, you're right. Will you forgive me for deleting the post shit-talking you from the haters group? And Phoebe's like, yeah, we are now at the end. How do you feel? Whose side are you on? Wow. You know...

I don't know if I have a side to pick here. I do feel like Phoebe's a real one. Yeah. Like, this is... See, but this speaks to the difficulty because that is like hitting the exception to the rule. Mm-hmm. When on the first outing, you say, oh, you know what? Actually...

I did some ill shit. Because I feel like nine times out of ten, that blows up. You would think. It blows up and it's like, you know, I don't barely know your ass. Why would you do that? That's weird. I feel like Gloria got very lucky in this. I also think that this is the beginning of a very beautiful story.

hater friendship. Yeah. I feel like you're, you were right. And that her biggest mistake was like not clocking another hater when she saw her. Absolutely. Like she should have known. Absolutely. I do have a couple of final updates for you. If you would like to have them.

Let me hear about the potential beginning of a fourth Scumfinity online. Oh, I'm sure that's happened. I can only assume. I can only assume. The first update I have for you is that these couples became such good friends that their daughters are like now older and still hang out all the time. That's so beautiful. They've like finally grown out of Funfinity, which is great news for both Phoebe and Gloria. They get to just hang out at normal places. That's right.

But only after they had been friends for two years did Phoebe open that silver box of secrets that she too keeps and tell her that they weren't peanut butter cupcakes. Olive loved peanut butter because it's her favorite, so the moms just gave her tahini and told the kids it was peanut butter. No rules had been broken at all. Not to steal a trademark Kelsey-ism, but...

Wow. I love that. As someone that often now deals with having to do substitutes for my child's eating and also, frankly, loves pulling a trick on a child. That's beautiful. Isn't that beautiful? That's beautiful. It's like, you silly child. You don't know. You know nothing. You know nothing of tahini. I will give you chickpeas and call it gold.

Justin, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was a delight to have you. Oh my God, Kelsey. This little podcast of yours, I got to tell you, this is such a delight. I hope that I was a wonderful guest. You were a delight. And you know, I just want to say, I think you and your team are doing something really magical here. Thank you. This podcast is produced by Alex Sujong-Loughlin and Ozzy Linus Goodman. Justin Ellis is Defectors Projects Editor. Jasper Wang and Sean Kuhn are Defectors Business Guys. Tom Lay is our Editor-in-Chief.

Jay Tolviera is our associate producer.

Abigail Siegel is our intern. Dan McQuaid runs our merch store, which you can find at normalgossip.store. Tara Jacoby designed our show art. Thank you to Jasper Wang, Catherine Hsu, Patrick Redford, Israel Daramola, Ray Rado, Chris Thompson, David Roth, Dave McKenna, and Luis Pais Pumar for your help on this season. And thanks to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber-based media company, and Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia.

I'm Kelsey McKinney, and please remember, you did not hear this from me. Radiotopia from PRX.