S3 Ep6: In Defense of Children with Youngmi Mayer
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Before we get going today, I wanted to tell you about another Radiotopia podcast you should be listening to, Song Exploder. Song Exploder is an award-winning show about the creative process behind music. Artists break down one of their songs, letting you hear all the different layers in the recording, from instruments to beats to vocals. And most importantly, they talk about why they made the creative choices they did. Song Exploder is not just for music nerds. It's for anybody who cares about creativity or wants to feel inspired to create something.

It's hosted by Rishi Keshe Hiraway, who you might know from the podcast Home Cooking or the West Wing Weekly. The episodes are short, about 20 minutes each, and my recommendation is to start with an episode featuring an artist you love. And then listen to one with an artist you don't know at all. There are over 250 episodes with guests like Fleetwood Mac, Madonna, Solange, Beats,

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Find your favorite episode of Song Exploder and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts or at songexploder.net. Everyone in this family are such edgelords. My God. They are. I can barely handle one minute of the story and they're like, 15 years later? Yeah. He waited until dessert? Oh my, I can't deal with this.

Hi, and welcome to Normal Gossip. I'm Kelsey McKinney. In each episode of this podcast, we're going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. Today for the podcast, I have Youngmi Mayer with me. Youngmi is a stand-up comedian, activist, and podcast host. She's the co-host of the Feeling Asian podcast and the host of Harry Butthole. Both podcasts highlight the Asian American experience. Youngmi, welcome to the pod. We're thrilled to have you. Hi, thanks for having me. Am I an activist? I

It says so online. Do you not feel like? No, I, no, I feel like, no, I think I've talked about this before where, where you just feel like, please, I feel like there's like some sort of stigma around that word. And so people like tend to like shy away from it. And I'm like,

Why? Yeah, because people are afraid of like being bold. Yeah. Right. They're afraid of like standing too firmly somewhere. And that's embarrassing for them. I also think that there is this like general idea that it's humorless, but you can be funny and be an activist. Do you want to tell us what you're up to?

What am I up to? I don't know. My life is like chaotic. I just got back from Korea. I was in Korea for a month. Okay. And then I also was on the island of Saipan where those are the two places I grew up. So I did like a little home tour with my son who's eight years old.

Yeah, so I just got back. That's so fun. Did he like it? He liked it, but it's like, it's so interesting because, you know, you know, when you plan a trip for your kid, you're like planning out all this stuff that you're going to do with them. And you're like, this is going to be life changing. And like, this is going to mean so much to him. So maybe a core memory. And then his like memory is like the banana boat, you know?

Well, banana boats are cool. So he's not wrong. Yeah, he's not wrong. Do you want to start me off with the traditional first question and tell me what your relationship with gossip is like? I love gossip. I'm pro gossip. You know, I think all gossip. There's no bad gossip. I feel like I read that thing a few years ago that was going around that people were saying how like being against gossip is actually kind of misogynistic. And I'm like, yeah, because like they're like,

It seems to have a bad connotation, but that's just like how human beings communicate, you know? Yeah, it's also like talking about other people can sometimes be used as a weapon against people who aren't men, right? It's like, oh, if you're not talking about something important, like, you know, the sports team that we all follow, then like this is mundane conversation. And it's like, no, that's, you're also just talking about some people you don't know. They just happen to hold a baseball bat. Exactly. Yeah, they love gossiping about like,

I don't even know. I was going to say like a sports athlete's name, but I don't even know. And I was like, no.

Bradley Charles or whatever. One of those guys. Sure. And his second wife. I don't know. But also, I think that it's like gossip and the telling of gossip and the telling of it well is an art. It's a storytelling art. And that is celebrated throughout the world. I mean, as someone who thinks about gossip constantly because it is my job to write these scripts, what do you think makes it different or the same as other kinds of storytelling? Yeah.

Well, here's the thing. The similar thing is that you have to make it juicy. You have to make it enticing to keep the listener involved, right? And that's like, it's like when fucking Quentin Tarantino does it, it's like, oh my God, what a fucking genius. And then like, when I'm juicing up the story, you know, about like,

this bitch who tried to steal my purse the other week, then well, I'm like, I'm being, you know, I'm being a little catty or whatever. Yeah, well, that that actually happened. But you know, it's just like juicing. Oh, yeah, my cat's on my lap. Sorry. He loves gossip. No, it was just great timing. You said I'm being a little catty. And then he was like, up here. Um, yeah, it's like, yeah, it's like, it makes it the same as like,

directing a movie you know or making like doing a podcast like you know you have that like intuition and you know what people want to hear and that gift is like kind of the same gift that people have that do any sort of storytelling yeah

I'm taking this as a huge compliment, personally, because you're comparing all gossiping to Quentin Tarantino, which seems great to me. It's a compliment for Quentin Tarantino, because, like, let's be honest. Sorry. No, you're right. Can you tell everyone about what happened with your purse? Oh, so I was, okay, not, I don't...

I'm going to... This is me trying to... I have to strike the balance between juicing up the gossip and, like, not offending anybody, especially as a Korean person. A classic conundrum. Yeah. But, I mean, it's fine. It would be fine if it was just you and me. I could go all out. But, you know, people are listening. And some people that are listening are Korean. And I don't want them to be offended. But...

But there's a city in Korea called Busan, and it's traditionally known to be kind of gangster-y. Like, there's a lot of gangpae. Gangpae are, like, gangsters in Korea. Like, back in the old days, it was known because it's, like, a port town, and they're rough, and they have this, like, thick accent. And it's, like, really hot, you know, like...

And they're just like smoking cigarettes and eating like dried squid, you know, in the alley. Like that's the spirit of Pusan, you know? I love this vibe. I feel like they work so hard to go get away from that. They're like, don't tell the white people about this. They're so mad at me right now. But I went there with my parents because they haven't been there in like 30 years. I was like, let's go down and do it. It's a seaside town. It's beautiful. And we went to have, you know, seafood on the beach. How great. And

As soon as I fucking sat down, the women behind me, I was like, these are some Busan ass bitches. You know, they're like, one of them had just had, again, a horrible stereotype of Koreans that I'm sorry. One of them just had plastic surgery. She had chin shaving procedure and she had like a bandaid around the bottom of her face. Smoking and drinking soju at 1 p.m.

It's like Vegas vibes. Yeah. And they're talking about, you know, I don't even know what they're talking about, like money or something like that. Right. And they're like, she fired this and she fired that. It's like, that's Korean. And I got the vibe that they were like worked around that area. It's like it was like a really touristy area and they were or something like that.

And I was just like, there's something about these women. I love them. I feel like we would be friends in another life. But I saw out of the corner of my eye, I was just keeping tabs. And when they got up...

one of them pushed the chair that had my purse on it that was next to me under her table. And as soon as I saw that, I was like, I know what's going on. And then the next one got up and she grabbed my purse, like with her back turned. And I've already been watching since she kicked the chair under her table. So I was like, as soon as she grabbed my purse, I was like, what are you doing? And then her friend was facing me and she was facing away. Her friend said something to her like, shh, shh, shh.

And then she slowly turned around and was like, oh, I'm sorry. And put the bag down. Oh, so sorry. I thought this was my purse. And then walked away. And I immediately was like that. She tried to steal my purse. And then nobody at the restaurant that was working there gave a crap. They were like, I just said like loud so that the people working there could hear me. But they're just like.

And like, well, good situational awareness on your part to watch the chair get kicked under. But I mean, I was watching them the whole time. So I was like, oh, they're so funny. And then the woman heard me scream. She would try to steal my purse, the culprit. And so she was like, oh, I have a purse that looks exactly like that. And it's I think it's somewhere under your table. So she like try to look under my table. And I was like, just go. Okay, just go. It's fine. Yeah.

I'm not going to call the cops or whatever you think I'm going to do. It's fine. Just go. Just leave me with my purse alone. Yeah. And that's all that happened. Directed by Quentin Tarantino. I can't wait to see it in theaters in 14 years. How do you gossip in your personal life? I just like, you know, I juice it up. I think I'm going to keep saying that all day. I just juice it up to the max.

So I want to talk to you about that because I think this is just something I'm fascinated in in general is like the juicing of gossip. It's like, how far do you go? How far do you feel comfortable going with juicing it up? And also like, who is the most fun person to juice it up for? Okay, so first, I just want to say that I don't like straight up lie. Right. Like I just...

I do not lie. I don't really fabricate anything. I do like change little things to make it more interesting. But also I feel like, you know, as a standup comedian and also like a podcast host that knows

that I have to retell stories for an audience, when things are happening, I like start to already like jot down in my head all the funniest best parts of it, you know? And then like also during the incidents happening, I think in my head what will make the story funnier, which is like,

Like, like the purse stealing thing. I was like, I should go outside and like kick her ass. Cause I would be funny. Right. I was like, no, this would, that would make that story like to the next level. Like that's a, that's a great story. Right. But then I was like telling my mom and she was like, don't because you have a foreign passport and they're always going to side with the Koreans. That's good advice. And I was like, you're right. And I was just sitting there as a fuming, like, Oh, I just want to beat her ass. Um,

But there are times that during the things happening, like...

other scenarios, I'll be like, oh, this guy said something to me on the street or whatever. And I'm like, I should let it go. But it would be really funny if I chased after him and said this. And so I so sometimes I will do that for the sake of the story. This is like the definition of living for the plot. Seriously, right? Of like, I will do it. Yeah. Because I feel like I know that I could just make it up and lie. Sure. But I don't know. There's something about I

as a performer, what I've found is that people can sense that. And like, there's the level of excitement. I think that happens in my body when I'm retelling something that actually happened. Like people can pick up on that, you know?

Yeah. So you're obviously talking about like performing a story, right? So the idea of like standing on a stage and performing it. Who do you rehearse the story with though, right? Like I assume that you're telling your gossip stories before you get onto a stage. Mostly. Who do you tell? Mostly with the voices inside my head. Just myself. Like I just tell myself the story over and over. And then I'll like –

But or a lot of times the stories I tell my podcast, I'll do to myself. But to be honest, like stories like the purse story or there's like this other great story that happened to me while I was in Korea. Like I will tell my friends the group chat, obviously. And then I'll tell. Yeah, I'll tell like multiple group chats.

To transition us into our story for today, do you have any cousins or like extended family that often has drama? I have a ton of Korean cousins. I have zero American cousins. I'm like, I'm half white. I don't have any white cousins. I have a million Korean cousins. How many is a million? Like, is it like hundreds of cousins? No, like, um...

Like a real number, I would say solidly like 15. That's a lot of cousins still. My mom has like eight siblings. That'll do it. Do you have like a chaotic relationship with them or is it pretty calm when you're all together?

I mean, we get along. We all get along. Except for the one cousin that tried to burn my mom's house down. But we all get along. You know what I mean? We really like each other. I don't dislike any of... Yeah. We get along. I love that. Great caveat. We all get along. Except for the one demon cousin.

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Some people say the year was 1997. Others say it was 1999. Everyone agrees that the day we're going to talk about was somewhere between 1995 and 2002. Over time, the details haven't been like lost per se. The details have been juiced. They've been heightened. They've been expanded, molded in the hands of people who have told their own version. This is their story. ♪

One thing everyone is sure about is that the incident took place on Christmas Eve. It was either a very warm December or a very mild one. It's unclear. It could have been sweatshirt weather or maybe also people swam in the pool. Depends on who you're asking. But what is clear is that it took place at the grandparents' house. Okay.

Grandma and grandma live in a not-too-big, not-too-small, very old house in a picturesque southern city, right? It's like the kind of house that's always shown in movies where, like, people come home for the holidays and it's, like, all decked out, right? There's, like, a giant oak tree. It's got lights on it. La, la, la. Grandparents have been waiting there all day for their, like, children and grandchildren to arrive. Yeah. First to arrive, everyone agrees on this, was the family of our friend of a friend. We're going to call her Hazel just for our purposes. Okay.

And because she's our closest contact, we're going to believe her version of this story. So the version I'm about to tell you is Hazel's version. We believe women. Yeah. In this situation, Hazel was eight and a half. Okay. Hazel and her older sister Dawn will say Dawn was ten. Okay.

you know, they fought in the backseat of the car the whole ride over, right? They're like, is your hand across the center line of my seat? Is your hand across the center line, right? Just like bickering, bickering, bickering over their shared chair. I love that. That's what Hazel remembers because that's like having an eight-year-old and that's like stuff that he remembers. I'm like, do you remember the Grand Canyon? He's like, yeah, I got a hot dog. It's like,

Exactly. So the minute they arrive, it's like four hour drive to their grandparents' house, right? Like they get there. The minute they arrive, that like animosity between her and her sister kind of dissolves because there's like new things to do. There are stairs to run up and down. There are piles of leaves to jump in. There's grandparents to hug. There's like a bunch of soft surfaces to jump on. Right. So they're doing that when their two cousins arrive. Peyton...

Who was nine. So he is between the two girls. And Cole, who's one year younger than Hazel. So he's seven. Okay. So these are white people. Yes. Okay. The boys come roaring out of the car. Right. Just like all energy. Yeah. Yeah.

And once the cousins are all together, it's like hell breaks loose. Right? Like they want to play hide and seek. They want to play sardines. They want to like run and tackle each other and scream at the top of their lungs. The adults are exhausted from transporting their children to this location and also having jobs and also having to do like the emotional labor of interacting with their own parents and siblings. Yes. So they're like, my head's going to explode listening to all of this chaos. Yeah.

We want the kids to have fun. Obviously, it's Christmas. Sure. But we also want the kids to not like topple a precious family heirloom to the ground because they're running in circles. Right. How do you think they should get the children to calm down? Like, what would your strategy be? I don't know. I would just like put them outside and like lock the door to get them to. They didn't have iPads back then. What did they do with children before iPads? Quaaludes. I don't know what they did.

I was so funny because that's like when I grew up. Yeah, poppers. That's like, that's when I grew up. And I'm like, what did I do when I was what did my parents do when I was bored? Maybe television? I don't know. What the aunt and uncle so the parents of the two boys do is they you know, they go to their car and they return holding a black box that's draped in like a bunch of cords.

And the uncle carries it like a bouquet to the living room and he turns the TV around and he plugs it in. And it was a Nintendo 64. Nice.

Did you play N64 at all as a child? No, not at all. I hate video games. I just like never got into it. But I remember it was like so big. People love that so much. Yes. Okay. So the game that they were playing is like also up for debate and also not important. Hazel is like certain that the game was Mario Party. And since we believe women and we believe Hazel, we're going with that.

Yes. They're all like seated on the floor, right? In like birth order. They're still yelling and like being really loud, but at least they're not running anymore. So the parents are like, we did it. This is a win. Right. As you can imagine, because there are four children, the game devolves immediately. Right. Because playing games as a child, like, you know, having a personal crisis always reveals something about your character, right?

Yes. Children's brains still developing. Yeah. Like if you, you know, if you're a purse dealer at heart. Right. Exactly. And also their sense of fairness for each of these children has no sense of like justice or equality. Right. Like so they're all like the only thing that seems fair to me is like if I get what I want.

I should have everything and Peyton should go sit in the car. Yeah. Yes, exactly. Okay. So the children managed to play for like an hour before their personalities started to reveal themselves. Okay. So here's what happens.

We'll go through them. Dawn, so she's the oldest. She assumed because she was taller and also older and also smarter that she would also be best at playing the video game, even though she'd never played it before. This did not work out well for her and she did not take it well. So she is like our stereotype of a sore loser, right? She's like pouting. She's becoming mad. She gets so mad at one point that she like slaps the controller out of the littlest one Cole's hand. Right.

To her credit, slapping the controller out of Cole's hand was, like, pretty fair because Cole, who's, like, smaller and goofier than all of them, is also the kind of kid who, like, innately ignores the rules of games. Like, he cheats. He sabotages his own teammates because he thinks it's funny. He, like, loses all the time, but that's because he's trying to make sure that, like, Peyton, his older brother, loses more, right? Mm-hmm.

And he was like best at the game. So he's like, Oh, turning the controller sideways and like using his palm to spin a little joystick or something. Yeah. He knows how to win. And what he wants is not to win, but to make Peyton lose. He, he would rather have chaos. Yeah.

Exactly. So can we assign like squid game characters to this or something? Make it a little Korean. Cause I feel like, so that's like Cole is like the gangster guy. Yeah. He's like, he's the Busan. I think he was from Busan in that show. Yeah. And I swear to God, I don't remember, but, and then the old, the oldest one is a sore loser. I feel like that she, she's the character. That's the rich guy that went to Seoul university and he brings it up in every sentence. Yeah.

Yes. Okay, so we've established these two characters. Who's next? So because Cole is disrupting every game, that means that Hazel is winning every game because she's the only one not being sabotaged. Hazel, obviously the main character. Exactly. Just pure of heart.

And she, well, she's pure of heart, except that she's a really sore winner. So she's like bragging, just like brag, brag, brag. Women should, women should brag more. You know, we're told to like little ourselves too much. No, fuck that. You won. Just rub it in their faces. She's just rubbing it in her sister's face, running it, rubbing it into everyone's face. She's winning. She's confident. Woman in tech, you know? Women in STEM. Congrats to Hazel. Yeah.

Just because she's better than all the men, they're calling her haughty and arrogant. No, she deserves to brag. Peyton, the only child remaining, is like does not care, right? Cannot be fazed by Cole's behavior. His younger brother is just like trying to find shortcuts and like do tricks in the game. Like he's not even really trying to win.

Payne sounds good. He's I don't I don't even know what character he is in Squid Game. He's like the I don't even remember any of their names. Okay, so this is like, this is our situation. How are you feeling at this point about our terrible children? I honestly want to correct you. I think that they sound like children, not terrible children. They're acting like children. And then we shouldn't place judgment. I'm sorry. No, you're right. I just read this parenting book. Um,

um they sound they sound like kids they sound annoying af and and i'm sure the parents at this point 1 p.m have have had some sauvignon blanc at this point okay so for dinner the way it works in this family is like extremely gender stereotyped right which is that like the women are doing the traditional christmas meal they're like very into it they're making their like jams and gravies and pies or whatever

They're like creating a feast. And this starts on Christmas Eve when they all get there. They're all cooking. Good. So what the women in this family have done is, you know, they're like, we're cooking for Christmas. The men will cook Christmas Eve dinner. And what they will be allowed to use is the grill because we are using the rest of the kitchen. Yeah. And men are allowed to grill. Yes. Women are not. Men are allowed to grill. Yeah. Yeah.

So this is fine. It's the South. It's warm. It's also like kind of a fun tradition to be like, oh, our family eats like hot dogs and hamburgers on Christmas Eve. All the kids love it. There's chips like we have watermelon on the grill. It's fun, right? That sounds great. The kids love this, obviously, because they're like hot dogs and hamburgers, special treat. We're thrilled.

So the children eat their hot dogs and their hamburgers right at dinner time. They eat them all happily. They like return to playing their games after dinner. Okay. But that evening, depending on who you believe, either right after they finished eating dinner or almost two hours later. Okay. So we have some ambiguous time sequencing. Okay. The grandpa comes stomping into the living room and he walks up to the TV and he rips the cord out of the back of the Nintendo and the screen goes black. Wow. Wow.

Cole, who is about to destroy both his brother and Don in one fell swoop, screams. Yeah. The parents come like running in because the kids are screaming. And so does like the grandma. And so they're all like gathered around, right? Yeah. Grandpa's holding the cord to the N64. He's like clearly annoyed. He clears his throat and he's like, which one of you put a hot dog in the toilet? Legend.

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The children all like look at one another, but no one says anything. Right. They're all like just silent. He's like, I know it was one of you. I already know who it was. I 100% know who it was. It's not Hazel. No one says anything. Yeah. He's like, none of you are in trouble, but the upstairs toilet is clogged. So like someone needs to confess. What if it just came out of my butt like that? Because I didn't chew it, grandpa. Just the whole hot dog.

just shot right out yeah once when i was a kid let me tell you my mom bought me a happy meal and i was so excited because she would never she would never get those for me and i ate the happy meal so burger cheeseburger so fast because i loved it that i got sick and then i and then i was like running to the bathroom so i had to throw up and the two pickles came out exactly intact

stuck to each other like just literally like how the person put it on the cheeseburger because I ate it so fast so I'm not I'm not it's in the scope of possibilities that it maybe the kid ate it too fast and it just came out whole

Yes, I guess that's a possibility. So like all family legends, right? This was told over and over again. And this moment of like grandpa standing there looms large over it to the point where like when the grandpa died a few years ago, the cousins like talked about this moment at the funeral. Wow. They're like, we didn't even know that he was upset. He just had to know, right? He was like, which one of you did this?

yeah but nobody said a word nobody said anything they're all just like looking at each other waiting for someone else to confess because they're like maybe if someone else else confesses this will be over yeah but none of them do huh what do you think the parents should do in this scenario i don't know what they should do but i if it was me let me tell you i wouldn't have a talk with grandpa be like bro relax

It's a little abusive. You're being a little abusive to your children. It's scary when adults yell at them. And it's not a big deal. I'll unclog the toilet.

Let them be kids. That's what I would do. Well, I do want to be clear that he wasn't yelling. He was just like, who did this? Who put this hot dog into the toilet? What the parents decide to do is they're like, we are going to question the children. We're going to see if we can get one of them to confess by splitting them up, asking if they did it, and then asking them if they know who did it. And just hope that one of them will tell on the other.

This is the year 2000. I like this. These are smart people. This sounds like a Law & Order SVU sort of tactic. So now we're going to play real Law & Order SVU, which is you get to choose which child you'd like to question first. Okay, I already know. I know it's Cole. Okay, so you want to go to Cole first, though. I see what you mean. I got to think. I'm going to plot out a little tactical. I would ask...

Well, like only the kid that did it would know. Do you know what I mean? It's not like other kids would be seeing the crime. Maybe. Maybe. I would ask, I guess, Peyton. Okay. You're going to Peyton first. Because I know it's Cole and I feel like Peyton will just rat him out. Peyton is nine.

Just to remember, Peyton is also a goody two shoes. And like, more importantly, Peyton does not like hot dogs. At the ripe age of six, Peyton was like, hot dogs are gross. I'm not eating them. By nine, Peyton was a vegetarian. Peyton sounds like a narc. He's gonna call the cops. So Peyton is interviewed on the couch, right? And he's like sitting cross legged. And they're like, Peyton, did you put the hot dog into the toilet?

And Peyton's like, no, I didn't. I don't even eat hot dogs. Okay. I believe him. The parents are like, we believe him. But Peyton is the kind of kid who lies. Like he's good at lying. That checks out. People who like cops like to lie. So that is true. So they're like, okay, Peyton, our little child, do you know who put the hot dog into the toilet?

And Peyton's like, all I know is that all the kids use the upstairs bathroom except for Dawn because she doesn't like the way it smells. Okay. We're getting some clues here. Okay. Who would you like to question next?

You've got Don, Hazel, and Cole left. Cole. You're going straight to Cole. Yeah. Okay, here's Cole. Go for the husband of the wife that's missing. Cole is the only child who does not seem like genuinely upset and concerned. He is like our chaos child. He is eating cookies when the parents find him in the dining room. He is not supposed to be eating cookies. Yeah.

The parents are like, Cole, you're not supposed to be having the cookies. And Cole is like, Grandpa said I could have them. Grandpa absolutely did not say that he could have these. They're like, Cole, you know that you can't have those. But he's also the baby.

So the parents are like, Cole, did you put the hot dog in the toilet? And he's like, nope. Okay. He said, nope. He's also very young. He's seven. Yeah. And the parents are like, hmm, hmm. Not super convincing. They're like, but Cole is the tattletale of these cousins. Right. They're like, yeah, almost always will come to his parents. If Peyton has like broken a cup, called him a baby breathed in the wrong direction. Yeah.

Right. So they're like, Cole, do you know who put the hot dog in the toilet? And Cole looks at his parents and he's like, I do not. Hmm. You know what? I believe Cole. I feel like my number one suspect now is Peyton. Who would you like to question next? You've got Dawn and Hazel, the two girls. Hmm. I guess Dawn because Hazel's not even using that bathroom. So.

No, Don's not using that bathroom. Don's not. Okay, then Hazel. Hazel. Okay. Hazel, she's eight and a half. She was interrogated on the patio. She is a crier. So like she doesn't deal well with confrontation. So immediately when her parents started questioning her older sister, she started crying. So they go out there and they're like, Hazel, no one is in trouble. We just want to know who put the hot dog into the toilet. Okay.

And she's like, Dawn is always blaming me for things that I didn't do. I ate all of my hot dogs. I would never put a hot dog into the toilet. Like I cleaned my plate. Dad gave me more and I still ate them.

Okay. And the parents are like, interesting that you're already going to the fact that Don would have accused you. And they're also like, you are right that we often believe Don over you, but that's because Don is older and usually is right. Right? Also, I think they say, they say that like a mark of someone that's lying is like they, they overdo the story. Oh,

And so, you know, yeah. Did you hear, did you know that? I didn't know that. I, I, I probably like some, not true. It's like some, I'm choosing to believe it wholesale. So I saw, I saw like an interview where it was like an FBI, a CIA,

some sort of interrogator person and they said that like one of the ways that you can tell someone's lying is if they like over do the story and you know hazel's talking about you know she ate everything on her plate like we're not asking you for all that you know you sound a little guilty so they're like hazel do you know who put the hot dog in the toilet yeah and hazel is like i didn't even know there was a hot dog in the toilet i have no idea

Okay, Hazel. Okay. Would you like to talk to Dawn, our oldest cousin? Before I choose who did it? Yes. Let's talk. Why not? Talk to Dawn. Okay. Dawn's 10. She comes to sit at the kitchen table with her mother and she like looks terrified. She's picking her nails, but she's like a good kid, right? Like obsessed with making good grades. Very kind. They're like, Dawn, did you put the hot dog into the toilet? And she's like, no.

And if I had, it would have been an accident and there would have been no reason to hide it from you. And I would have either retrieved it or I would have asked for help. Huh. And the parents are like, you know what? That does track that you would do that. But they also know that Dawn has intentionally created problems in the past to get Hazel into trouble. Hmm. Did she say, did she pull Hazel into it? They're like, hmm, Dawn. Hmm.

Do you know who put the hot dog in the toilet? And Hazel is like, I don't. But Hazel and Cole were the only other kids eating hot dogs.

who do you think is guilty i don't trust any of these children they sound like schemers and liars they sound like they're from pluton i'm just kidding um first you defended them and now you're turning on them yeah i'm turning on them i you know like i like this is this is what it feels like to be a parent i feel like too it's like sometimes i'm like i love i love my son so much and then i'm like this is no um

I truly feel like my gut is telling me it's Cole. You know, he's already lying about the cookies. Unless I still think it's maybe, you know, the grandpa and the grandpa did give Cole those cookies and he lied about it to make him look like he was a liar. And then he threw the hot dog in there to like, maybe grandpa's a chaos agent in this family.

So that is a good point and something that we should address is like I've kind of assumed that a child is to blame up until this point. Yeah. Is there any reason to think about the other adults, do you think? Or should we just ignore them? I...

I don't know. I would, I would say the only one that would do it as grandpa. Cause it sounds like one of those like Chevy Chevy chase pranks that, you know, back in the old days, dads would do pranks like that. And then you'd be like their kids cry. Yeah. Yeah. Like to traumatize us. It's like your cat's dead. And like, like fly a toupee on a sticker. And then it's like, now I'm really sad, but thanks. I guess that's funny. Um, good prank dad, as you wipe your tears away, but I, okay. My money is on coal. I think it's coal.

Okay, this is exactly the conclusion that all the adults come to, right? Like they're like, the hot dog gets removed from the toilet, obviously, like, it's fine. But the parents are all like, it's so funny that none of these kids would rat each other out, right? They're like, this is a really funny scenario. Like, we just want to know who did it. Like, why did you put a hot dog into a toilet with one bite out of it? That is a ridiculous thing to do.

All the parents are like, it's Cole. Like, 100% our little, like, chaos child. But there's, like, no confession. And also, like, they were never really going to do anything about this anyway. Yeah.

So they're just like the upstairs bathroom is clogged. None of you can go there. Like it's off limits for the rest of the trip. That's fine. They'll all just use the downstairs bathroom. I feel like I'm judging myself for thinking bad things about these children. Because like if I think it's cool, I'm like, that's sad. Little boys get like a bad rap. Well, they're all adults now for what it's worth. Oh, no. I mean, like, yeah, yeah. Like if I was judging the children.

I'm guessing that there's like a twist, like a surprise ending and it's Hazel. There's no way it's anyone else. It's either Hazel or Cole. Do you think the adults should do anything at this point? No. I mean, it's just like, I don't know. Kids, you know...

I don't know. This kind of stuff happens to me every day. And I'm just like, I just got to let it go. I don't even know. Yeah. That's basically what they do. They're like, our operating assumption is that it's Cole and he's the culprit slash hot dog vandal. And like, yeah,

eventually someone will confess. And in the meantime, this is just a funny story. Yeah. So what happens is this hot dog story becomes like family lore, right? The like joke story scandal, whatever you want to believe about it of the hot dog becomes like a family joke. So every year at Christmas, the family like brings up the hot dog incident and the whole story is retold and the whole event is rehashed in detail. Yeah.

Like people are requesting the story at Christmas. Every time they're serving hot dogs, they're like, don't put it in the toilet. Right. Like on and on and on. You know what I would do? What? I would take a bite out of a hot dog and throw in the toilet every year. And then I wouldn't tell anybody that I did it. It would all over again. Every year they'd be like, oh my God, it happened again. Who did it? Every year. And then like, like keep it a secret until my death. Take it to the grave. Yeah.

That would be a really good prank. That is not what happened in this family. All that happens in this family is we rehash the story. Everyone settles on it being Cole every year. And to Cole's credit, he is like a good sport about this, right? Like he laughs when people point at him, but he never confesses. Every year he denied, denied, denies. He repeats his alibi that the whole time he was just eating cookies downstairs. Wow. Yeah.

Everyone is like, we don't believe you, but it's nice of you to be like a good sport about all this like razzing that we're doing. But there was one time that everyone in the family kind of questioned their resolve that it was Cole. The family was like having a big, you know, outside game day or something. And they split everyone up into teams, right? They like drew names out of a hat, split everyone into teams. Right.

Don and Hazel were on the same team. They were both high schoolers by this point. And every team had to choose their own name. Okay. Don and Hazel chose the name. We didn't put the hot dog in the toilet. Yes. Do you think this is a signifier of guilt? No. I think I believe women. So no. Wow. Classic. Someone who doesn't believe women is Cole. Cole yells, aha. And he's like, you did it.

Why is that an admission of guilt? Because to Cole, he's like, you keep bringing it up. The fact that you need to reinforce this is telling to me. That's a very good point, Cole.

Cole immediately creates anarchy, right? Like everyone is like yelling. Cole is like, this is basically a confession. Like they basically put it in there. Like we all know now. And he's like having fun with it. It's not like bad vibes. But all the cousins are older by this point, right? So they're all like having a blast with this. They're all like, no, Cole, you did it. Yeah. Yeah.

One uncle is like drunk. And so he's like trying to interrogate the cousins again, right? Like he's like, tell your story again, but still nobody confesses.

Okay. That's the most mildest drunk uncle story I've ever heard. I know. Same. The uncle got drunk and then he asked them again. Who put the hot dog in it? I was like, I thought this story was going to go really south. No, no, no. Okay. Everyone's having a great time. Grandpa is having like the best time of all, right? He's laughing super hard. I'm telling you it's grandpa. He's like, honestly, the $2,500 this cost was worth it.

Oh, it costs $2,500. All the cousins are like, what costs $2,500? Turns out the hot dog was not just placed in the toilet. It was put in the toilet and flushed. Oh, God. And the hot dog did flush, but it was a whole hot dog with a bun. And so the bun saturated with water and expanded. Yeah.

I feel like this detail was very important with the bun. That is a whole different story. The hot dog got stuck in the pipes and like the pipes were very old, right? Like whoever flushed the hot dogs credit, like the pipes were old. They probably needed to be replaced anyway, but they had to be replaced like immediately after Christmas because of this.

This information, of course, creates more chaos because now all the cousins are like, oh, this is why you wanted to know who flushed it. Right. Because it was like actually a financial problem. I see. Yes. The drunk uncle is like, can a hot dog even be flushed? He's like, I don't know that I like believe this. Do you think that a hot dog and his bun could fit into a toilet and be flushed? Yes. Yes.

100%. I've seen bigger things squeeze into smaller holes is all I'm going to say about that. Yes. So everyone's debating though, because the uncle is so convinced that a hot dog couldn't fit in there. He has not experimented in the bedroom. I know. The uncle is yelling. He's like, how do we even know the hot dog did it? Right? He's like, the pipes are really old. Oh, so there might not have even, did anyone see the hot dog? Grandpa. Exactly. Exactly.

By the end of the tournament, no one had confessed still. And the children are teenagers. So they have like, you know, a sense of, you know, moral, a moral compass to obtain clarity, maybe. Yeah. And like, who cares to say it? Yeah. The next opportunity to confess. Yeah. Was when grandpa began to die.

Oh, God. The kids are like in college. Oh, my God. This is horrible. Grandpa, he was very old. His sickness progressed quickly. It's okay, right? It's fine. All the cousins were coming to pay their respects, right? Hazel goes in first. And immediately, Grandpa is like, did you flush the hot dog?

And he's like saying it and a funny voice. But Hazel's like, no, I didn't flush the hot dog. And he's like, do you know? I have to know. And she's like, no, I don't know who did it. Oh, my God. So Don goes in after her. She comes out and Hazel's like, did he ask you about the hot dog? And Don's like, yeah. And then Cole goes in and then Peyton goes in and he asks all of them questions.

Whether or not they were the one that flushed the hot dog. And everyone is like, I told him it wasn't me. I told him I didn't know. So all of the parents and the cousins are like, that's crazy. Like no one confessed to this man on his deathbed who wanted to know whether the hot dog had been flushed and by who.

It was only at the funeral a couple of weeks later that the grandma mentions that the grandpa had told her that the hot dog flusher had finally confessed on his deathbed. I see. Right, right, right. And everyone in the family is like, what? Tell us. Like, who was it? And the grandma's like, he wouldn't tell me. He said he'd earned it. I'm telling you it was grandpa. And he did it as a joke. I think the uncle's onto something. I think maybe there wasn't even a hot dog. The pipes just burst.

And then he took that secret to the grave. It was like a joke, a little grandpa joke. You know, they really like to overdo the jokes. You really take it there. Okay, so all of this family backstory brings us to last Christmas. Okay. It's been either 25 or 30 years since the hot dog incident, depending on who you believe. Okay. All the cousins are in their late 20s, early 30s.

Dawn is now a nurse. She has two kids. She's married. She lives extremely close to her sister, Hazel, who also got married a couple summers ago and is like pursuing a career as a lawyer. Very adult.

Because they live close together, they carpooled so that Hazel could help her sister Dawn with the kids and stuff, right? Nine-hour drive to Christmas. Because Christmas has now downsized from grandma's house because grandma moved into, like, someone else's house, they have Christmas at Peyton and Cole's parents' house. So Dawn and Hazel and their spouses and the kids arrive the night before Christmas Eve. Nobody else is there. They're the first ones there.

So they settle in, they eat dinner. And after dinner, the like, husbands take the kids up to put them to bed. And Don and Hazel like settle in on the patio furniture with their aunt to have some wine. Classic holiday time. Yeah. You know, they have two or three or four or five wines. It's unclear. Wow. Who's to say?

Five wines. At this point, someone makes a hot dog joke. Oh, no. And Dawn is like, come on. We all know who it was. Yeah. And Hazel's like, yeah, obviously it was Cole. Uh-huh. And the aunt takes a sip of wine and she's like, which one of you is going to confess? Oh, no.

And Don and Hazel are like, what? And the aunt is like, yeah, grandpa was convinced from the very beginning that it was one of you two. Huh. I just assumed that one of you confessed. Don is like, what? No. And Hazel's like, you're joking. Like, there's no way everyone believed this. And the aunt's like, no, I'm not joking. I'm dead serious. Everyone believes that one of you two did it. Okay. Okay.

So maybe this was caused by the team name. Maybe Cole like successfully switched their allegiances. But grandma from the beginning was like, it's one of the two girls. Wow. So if you're Hazel and you've spent all of these years assuming it's Cole, are you now suspicious of your sister? Yeah, I would be.

Wait, Hazel's the person that told the story and she said that it's not her. Yeah, but like who cares if grandpa thought it was one of the girls? You know what I mean? Like I don't understand. I don't understand the whole naming of the sports team is confessing that part. I'm like so lost, but I still think it's Cole. Hazel's like racking her brain and she's like, you know, like Cole really was eating a lot of cookies that day. Like she's like,

Could his alibi be real? Could he have been eating cookies the whole time? I don't know. I mean, I guess like, honestly, at this point, I feel like it could be anybody. Yeah. So Hazel's like, well, her aunt goes inside and she's like, obviously, I have to confront my sister because I'm like, yeah, fucking flush the hot dog like after 25 years of being silent. Yeah.

So they're both like, did you do it? No. Did you do it? No. And they're both like kind of heated because they're like, did you, my only sister, trick me for 25 years into believing it was Cole? Right. But they're both like, no, it wasn't me. And like, if you're going to confess, this is the moment to confess, right? Like to your sister alone. Or the deathbed. Yeah. Or the grandpa's deathbed. Exactly. So they're both like laughing at,

Because they're like, this is like an ultimate betrayal and an ultimate gag. They're like, no, it wasn't me. So the aunt comes back and they're both like crying laughing because they're like, it wasn't us. Like we swear it wasn't us. And the aunt shrugs, but it's like very clear she does not believe them. Wow. She does not believe women. She doesn't. Huh. The next day is Christmas Eve. Grandma arrives in the morning. She has like presents for the kids. Don and Hazel's parents arrive with more presents.

Cole arrives in the afternoon. He's like clearly hungover, right? He's like wearing a band t-shirt, sunglasses and a baseball cap. He has brought the children's silly string. This immediately endears him to all of the children and also creates a giant mess. Because the kids are using the silly string and Cole is just like laughing and laughing. Cole still loves chaos. Yeah, he loves chaos. The chaos is so like overwhelming that no one even notices when Peyton like walks in.

In the meantime, Peyton has like gone to a fancy college in the Northeast. He arrives with his luggage like straight from the airport wearing a crisp button up shirt. He's like living in D.C. and working, you know, for like some Democrat like Pete Buttigieg. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everyone is like thrilled to see him because he hasn't been home for Christmas in three years. So everyone's like our like prodigal son has returned. Right. They're like, yeah, great.

So when the hot dogs and hamburgers are made for dinner, it's, like, time to retell this whole story, right? Oh, God. They retell the whole story. This year, like, the kids are finally old enough to, like, appreciate the story. And so the kids are, like, scream laughing and they're, like, which one of you did it? And they're, like, we think it's Cole, right? The kids even are, like, it has to be Uncle Cole. Like, it's... Yeah.

So after dinner, the four cousins retreat to the patio. Yeah. And it's like, you know, it's weird to be an adult. It's like you're still young enough to stay up late on Christmas Eve and like drink wine. But you're also like old enough that you now have to assemble a bicycle because you're Santa. Yeah.

Right. And you've had five wines. Yes. So they're like having their wine. Hazel and Don are like not doing a great job of assembling this bicycle, but their husbands have like gone to bed. So Cole takes over. It's like perhaps 1 or 2 a.m. very late. Yeah. Black sky. There's one light that is like by the back door. And he's assembling a bicycle in that light. He's assembling a bicycle. Yeah. Yeah. And he's like making fun of Hazel and Don because he's like, you are both like drunk. Yeah.

And you're lying on the concrete and you're being absolutely useless in helping assemble this bicycle. Yeah. And so they're all like laughing giddy when from the chair, they hear a whisper and it came out so easily. Like he had it bottled up and it just like slipped out like a little fart. And he goes, I was the one that flushed the hot dog. Is it Peyton? It's Peyton. I knew it. He's so with his little lies. I can't believe that.

damn you know i identified this is why i felt bad for accusing cole earlier i identify as a cole i am the hot mess chaos agent in my family but i never lie obviously i lie all the time but like i don't like lie like that do you know what i mean like yeah i don't lie like that i'm like very honest if someone's like did you do something i'm like yes or no whatever yeah

Peyton, for me, Peyton feels like a cancer and cancers like to lie or like a Virgo, you know, it's like they look very organized, but they're actually like as a Virgo. Yes. Right. We're all scheming at all times. Yeah. Kniving little. Everyone's like having to hold a hand over their mouth. Right. Because it's two in the morning and like your cousin has just confessed to a two decade old like family mystery. Yeah.

Cole like stands up and he walks over to Peyton, who he is now bigger than. And Peyton has his like back to the lantern. So his like face is a whole shadow. Yeah. Cole is like, you little shithead. And he like locks Cole in a headlock. And he's like, you made me take the blame for this for decades. Yeah.

I'm going to say that this is that's traumatic. I mean, because like the whole like idea of like the hot mess kid taking the fall for the conniving Virgo kid like that. That's like Trump. Like, yeah, that's horrible. Yeah. And Cole is like laughing, but he's like, I'm not letting you go until you tell us everything. Yeah.

Let's hear it, Peyton. So Peyton tells them that he had decided on this Christmas Eve that he was like tired of feeling left out of the family. Like he felt like he was the kid that was different from all the other kids. And he was like, I don't like this. I don't like being different from all the other kids. I'm going to try to not be a vegetarian anymore. And so he got himself a hot dog and he snuck it into his room and he tried it, but he didn't like it.

And he didn't want to admit to having tried and not liked it. And he didn't want to be accused of wasting food. So he tried to flush it. Oh, my gosh. Of course. That makes so much sense.

Why? So like, why was he keeping a secret all this time? For what reason? The cousins love this. They're like having a blast, right? They're like, he finally confessed after 25 years. We all thought it was Cole. I briefly thought it was my own sister. But it turns out it's Peyton. It's hilarious. So now they have to have a debate as the four of them. And the debate is this.

Do you tell the rest of the family? No, they don't deserve. The cousins decide that they're going to tell. And their reasoning for this is that they're like, Cole is going to keep getting shit for this for generations. That's true. If we don't tell. And they're like, you know what? As a like,

present to him we will allow him to tell right like he gets to tell them that Peyton has confessed yeah so at Christmas lunch the next afternoon they're all like gathered around the table right Peyton has this like special veggie casserole everyone else has their like ham they're eating merrily all the cousins are like exchanging glances but nobody says a word yeah Cole waits for dessert

He waits till like everyone has their little pie and they're seated. Everyone in this family are such edgelords. My God. I can barely handle one minute of the story. And they're like 15 years later. He waited until dessert. Oh my, I can't deal with this. And he like knocks his little knife on his glass and he stands up and clears his throat. And he's like,

I just wanted to make a very important announcement. It has come to my attention that Peyton, and he points at Peyton, he's like, Peyton flushed the hot dog. Wow. Everyone gasps, right? Like, everyone is laughing. Hazel and Dawn are, like, crying. They're laughing so hard. And the parents look at Peyton and they're like, Peyton, did you flush the hot dog? Like, is this true? And Peyton...

deadpan looks at the table and goes, you're going to believe him over me. Oh, God. Of course, he works in politics. So apparently overnight, he had some kind of like change of mind, or he decided to prolong the drama. And so now there's anarchy because by digging in his heels, Cole is now like discrediting his own position, right? Because he's like, no, Peyton told us.

And like Hazel and Don are like also confirming that Peyton told him, but all the parents are like, we don't know who to believe in this scenario. Like it's equally as likely to us that the three of you banded together to blame the only person who hasn't been blamed here. Yeah.

there's a lot of like psychological manipulation in this family i feel like yes and also i think on the parents part they're like we like the drama of not knowing who it is right so it doesn't matter to us i like how this family's doing like a fun prank and i'm like it's full of narcissists and sociopaths and they're just like having they're just like having family fun i'm like i don't like any of this

They're all Kohl's, really. They're all Kohl's cash at heart. If you think about it. So the family left Christmas that year, like just as unsure of who flushed the toilet as before. But the cousins know that it was Peyton. Yeah. Who do you think is the villain of this story? Who do I think is the villain? Definitely, definitely Peyton.

Because, okay, think about this. All the years that people are, like, shitting on Cole, he's sitting there. Yep. Like, la la la la. Like, that takes, like, a level of, like... Like, you have, like, zero empathy. So you don't think it's Grandpa anymore. You've revoked Grandpa as villain character. I think I was, you know, I was being unfair to Grandpa. I was, you know...

I think he was just being fair. I had like images of my own, you know, Korean family screaming at me, but he sounds like just like a very calm person.

nice man and he didn't get that mad even though it cost him $2,500 which is a lot of money in the 1990s yeah because if that was my household somebody was going to get slapped with a wooden spoon um yes I think it's definitely Peyton by a by a mile he's definitely the villain I don't trust him um I don't know if there's any yeah I think it's definitely Peyton hands down

We have been told that the plan is that this Christmas, Peyton has some kind of plan to announce that he was the hot dog flusher. Oh, God. You know he's going to not do it again. That's my question for you is do you think he's going to do it? No. Why? Because he doesn't – I don't – he enjoys this. He enjoys the suffering of others. Yeah.

But now is the time to do your perfect prank, which is to put the hot dog in the toilet again next year. I would do if I was Peyton. Okay, wait, I just realized that I just said that I would do this prank to my own family. And then I'm like, Peyton sucks. So now I'm like,

Wait, I was like, I would totally do something like this. Wait a minute. It's complicated. Well, this is the thing. I would do something like this because it's funny. But I think I would stop the moment that my sibling was getting all the blame. Even if it was a joke. From what we've heard, it seems like it was always good-hearted. And that Cole was really good at just being the villain. Yeah.

So I do understand on some level the idea of being like, this is just a fun thing that we're all doing. Right. And it seems like a lot of people thought it was Hazel and Dawn. Maybe from Peyton's perspective, they were constantly talking about Hazel and Dawn. And from Hazel and Dawn's perspective, they were only talking about Cole. That makes so much sense.

But yeah, like, but this is the thing, though. Even if you know, if you were Cole and you know it was, like, lighthearted and funny, you would know, like, at the core, the adults truly thought that you were a little shit. And, like, they had decided. And I think that that would, like, psychologically damage you to a certain extent. Do you know what I mean? Like, even if they were being nice about it. Yeah. I do know what you mean. And if I was his brother, Peyton, I'd be like, that's messed up. I don't want him to, like...

I want to tell my parents, like, sometimes it's the one wearing a suit, you know? So true. That is the moral, maybe the moral of this story is that sometimes it's the one in the suit. And then the parents would have learned the lesson back in the 90s that, you know, sometimes the square is up to no good. So true. Yeah. Youngmi, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It was a joy to have you. Thank you so much for having me. I was on the edge of my seat.

Thank you for listening to Normal Gossip. If you have a gossip story to share with us, email us at normalgossip at defector.com or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679 GOSSIP. If you love this podcast and want us to keep making it, become a friend or a friend of a friend at supportnormalgossip.com. You can follow the show on Instagram and TikTok at normalgossip.

You can follow Kelsey on all social media at McKinneyKelsey. This podcast was produced by Alex Sujong-Loughlin. Defector's projects editor is Justin Ellis. Our editor-in-chief is Tom Ley. Jay Tolviera is our production assistant. And thanks to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber-based media company. Normal Gossip is hosted by Kelsey McKinney. And remember...

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