S2 Ep8: Conflict Archaeology with Julia Furlan
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Before we get going today, I wanted to tell you about another Radiotopia podcast you should be listening to, Song Exploder. Song Exploder is an award-winning show about the creative process behind music. Artists break down one of their songs, letting you hear all the different layers in the recording, from instruments to beats to vocals. And most importantly, they talk about why they made the creative choices they did. Song Exploder is not just for music nerds. It's for anybody who cares about creativity or wants to feel inspired to create something.

It's hosted by Rishi Keshe Hiraway, who you might know from the podcast Home Cooking or the West Wing Weekly. The episodes are short, about 20 minutes each, and my recommendation is to start with an episode featuring an artist you love. And then listen to one with an artist you don't know at all. There are over 250 episodes with guests like Fleetwood Mac, Madonna, Solange, Beats,

Billy Eilish, Phoebe Bridgers, FK Twigs, The Killers, Dua Lipa, and John Batiste, and more. Each episode is really a miniature portrait of an artist and how their creative mind works, with the song as the lens we see them through. It's also a great way to discover new music. It's a different kind of experience to get introduced to a song this way, learning how and why each piece and idea came together before you hear the whole song at the end.

Find your favorite episode of Song Exploder and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts or at songexploder.net. There were so many moments that this went wrong and like one of them was 12 years before this happened. Hello, my little gossip fiends and welcome to Normal Gossip. I'm Kelsey McKinney and in each episode of this podcast, we're going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world.

Welcome to the season two finale. Today's episode is going to be the last episode for season two, which means we have a couple of bits of business to take care of before Alex and I go on our break so that we will recover and be able to continue making you really good episodes.

The first bit of business is because this is the season finale. That means it is almost time for the bonus episode. This season's bonus episode, as you may remember, if you've been paying attention is about niche community drama stories.

What we are looking for are stories about your dog park group, your pet store drama, your roller derby adventures, anything that is like a niche specific community. Those are the kind of stories we're looking for for this listener episode. And the way that we prefer to receive those stories is with your beautiful voices attached. Please remember that if you do not want us to use your actual voice, Alex knows how to do Hollywood magic and she will change it.

The way you can send those to us is by calling in on the voice line, which is 2679-GOSSIP. Please remember, the voice line will cut you off after three minutes. Just keep calling back. Or you can save it as a voice memo on your phone and email it to us at normalgossip at defector.com.

That's business one. Business two is that, as I have said, we are about to go on a break again. You all get very sad when we go on breaks, even though it is the only time that Alex and I get to sleep through the night. Unlike the first season's break between seasons one and two, in this season's break, there are gossip episodes that you can have, but those are the subscriber-only episodes.

So there's already one for June. If you subscribe now, you'll get that one. And the one for July comes out this Friday. So like two days from now, you can have two gossips this week. If you want, there will be more bonus episodes for subscribers. Only the one this week is about a wedding gone awry. So that's very exciting for all of you. And you can get those episodes by subscribing at the friend of a friend level.

Or you can subscribe at one level higher at the friend level. And you can also be entered in a pool to be our secret guest for these episodes. At that level, you'll also get added to our close friends circle on Instagram, which is where we are doing a lot of drama and also discussions about the episodes. So that's very fun.

You can, where do you subscribe? Let's see. You subscribe at support normal gossip.com. Normal gossip is a part of defector media, which is a subscriber based media company. So we can only do what we do here because of your subscriptions. Thank you so much to everyone who's already become a friend and a friend of a friend. Um, we will see you on the bonus episode in two days. Very exciting. Okay. No more business. Bye.

Today I have with me Julia Frilan. She's an independent podcasting consultant, a podcast host, and a professor at the New School. Sounds like you're tired. Yep. Most recently, she hosted a series of podcasts for NPR, and she is currently executive producing Death, Sex, and Money. She's also hosting a series for Vox Conversations with Even Better that will be out in August, and you can find her on Twitter at at Julia's TMI. Julia, welcome. Wow.

Wow, what an intro. Thank you so much, Kelsey. It is wonderful to be here. I cannot tell you how excited I am. I am thrilled that you're here. I think we're gonna have a lot of fun today. I think the two of us have a good energy. We're just vibing. It's gonna be great. Do you want to start off with the most classic question of all and tell me what your relationship is to gossip?

I have been thinking about this for so long. I'm so excited that I get to say it. I've been telling it to my phone during the episodes. To practice? Yes, to practice. And also just because. Just because I think it's important to talk back to your podcast. It's good to talk back to the podcast, yeah. Yeah, how would you know that I'm your friend if I wasn't literally staring at my phone being like, no, I disagree. Anyway. Okay.

My relationship to gossip is that it is a way to deconstruct power. And I find it very powerful when people create a whisper network and use gossip as a power element. So I feel like

I really enjoy professional gossip. Yes. Like, I love to hear about which jobs are working. I love to, I love to like, find a nemesis. Yeah, I mean, I have very few nemesi. Oh, interesting. But I have some, very few. You can count them on one hand. A short but bolded list. Yes, of people who have wronged me. Yes.

But I find gossip to be this thing that like it has this sort of negative connotation. I would like to encourage everyone to look truly at themselves and ask themselves if they don't quote unquote don't like gossip. Are they being honest with themselves? Because I think a lot of people pretend that they don't like gossip and they don't traffic in gossip, but they actually do.

I have a question for you about something you said earlier. What do you mean by deconstructing power? I mean that it's like the ultimate way to get at the big, powerful people, especially professionally, if they have power over your money and most of your time.

If you are able to talk to other people, like unions are a great example of the collective rising up and sort of like fighting power. I feel like...

we don't think enough and we don't make explicit enough power relationships. And if we did that more, then we would realize that gossip is actually incredibly powerful. But it has to be on the collective level. It works from the least powerful to the most powerful. If you're the boss and you're gossiping, that is not doing anything for you. You're just being shitty. Bad, bad, bad. Yeah. But if you are the interns, it's a

It's important because the thing is that like, especially in professional environments, information is power, especially if you don't have as much money or a title or managerial power. Like information is a really important source of power.

Yes, we talk about this a lot in Alex's special Scorpio hour about how she just holds secrets inside her body to use as ammo later. And that is kind of what you're saying is that like, you can gain power by understanding what the people above you are doing. And telling your friends. Yes, exactly. But I do want to like put a caveat here, which is that like,

Fifth graders should not be. If you are listening to this and you are in fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth or eleventh or twelfth grade, you're not ready yet. You can't do that. Because I do feel like the worst person I ever was was when I was like using gossip for evil when I was trying to be powerful in middle school. Yeah. Yeah. You can certainly use gossip for evil, which is like.

I think that's the complicated thing about it, right? Is that there's a benefit to demonizing gossip because I think anyone who moves in gossip and uses it a lot or gossips with their friends a lot knows that you can be evil with it. Oh, yeah. So it's easy for people to say this is evil because you're like, ooh, maybe. It might be. Yeah. But it's also not evil, which is what's complicated. Yeah. And also I think that oftentimes –

Really good gossip like a really good gossip story is just as powerful if you don't know who it is so like Oftentimes if there's a wild thing that happens to someone My first instinct if I want to tell someone is to tell someone who lives in like a different country Who doesn't know this person at all who is like completely? outside of the gossip network completely outside of it

I mean, clearly we also believe that. That's the whole premise of the pod. The structure of your show. So I hit the nail on the head right there. That was my idea. Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much. So who is that? Do you have like a go-to person for when you're sharing stories?

You're a good boss? Really wild stories? Yes, I do. I have a group of friends from high school and they are like so interesting and so wonderful and like I feel like

Because they're high school friends, they don't care about like the inner workings of fucking media in New York City. Right, right. But they love me, so they will be interested in me. Yeah. Okay. Today's drama is about a big group of friends.

Can you tell me a little bit about like, not necessarily your group of friends, but like how you think big groups function, how gossip with people who have, maybe were friends by proximity in the past and are just stuck together still, how that works? I think that the like,

Equality of the group chat, like the equality of the blue text bubble, like the way that it levels all of the friends, regardless of what their like constellation of hierarchy is.

It can open lots of doors, but it can also uplift people that you're like, who is this person? This is not okay. You know? So I think it's important for a solid group chat to be not too big. How big is too big? I think six, seven. Okay. It's probably, probably my limit. I think that like,

If there are 14 people on a group text, it's getting unwieldy and it's going to be really tough. You know? Yeah. Okay. Are you ready? Should we get into it? I cannot wait. I have goosebumps. Literal goosebumps.

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Hosted by Maria Garcia, this is My Devo, an Apple original podcast produced by Futuro Studios. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts. Today's gossip is about a big group of friends.

Okay. Malcolm is in his mid-30s. He lives in the same city where he grew up. And his friend group consists of 20 people. No. Who all went to high school and college together and ended up in the same town. 20 people? Yeah.

20 people. Yikes. So brutal. We've already been over this, so we don't even have to get into it. Malcolm like grew up with all of these people and he does genuinely like them, right? Like we're not in a situation where it's like he hates all of his friends. He does like them. Good. For example, his favorite friend is Walt. Walt has been his best friend since second grade. And Walt is also in this group. Okay. Okay. Great. Great.

It's important to know that this is a group bound mainly by proximity in that like, you know, proximity is a very powerful thing. I'm going to tell you an anecdote that's very important to me now. When I was in college, I had a sociology professor who told me that when you were in elementary school, it is extremely likely that your crush had a last name very similar to your last name in the alphabet. Wow.

And that is because you are seated alphabetically. Proximity can convince you that you like someone. Hmm.

Maybe you don't actually like that much. I see. Okay. Okay. So this group has like an outer circle and an inner circle as every group does. Malcolm is on the inner circle. But everyone on the outer circle is like kind of in this group because they're watching the drama that's happening on the inner circle. Oh my God.

Almost all of this drama concerns a girl named Nora. Nora. To start at the beginning of this story, we must travel back in time. Okay, so we are now in the Obama era. It's like Katy Perry's teenage dream on this radio. Four Loko is still like the old formula. Everyone's just downloading Snapchat.

That's where we are. Okay. Okay. Great. Got it. Hope and change. Hope and change. Nora did not go to school with any of these people. What? Nora got observed into this group because about 14 years ago, Malcolm went on two dates with her while he was in a different city for work. Okay. So he like flew to some other city, met Nora, went on two dates with her. They hit it off like really well. And they kept like texting when he got back home.

does not think that they were serious enough that it made sense for Nora to move across the country after those two dates, but she did it anyway. No, Nora, half of your name is the word. No, no, no,

No. Okay. Like they, two dates, right? Like they weren't even exclusive. Like Nora is just like, I'm here. What's up? No. Malcolm is like a little bit of a commitment phobe. So you can imagine that this did not go well. Malcolm was like, I hate this.

And Malcolm is very confrontational. This is like important to know about him, right? Like he's not the kind of guy who's going to like tell other people if he has a problem with you, he's going to tell you. Okay. Well, the direct, you know. Direct. Not in a mean way, but it's like Nora moved to the city and he's like, listen, I do not like you enough for you to be moving across the country for me. Like I don't want to continue dating you because I'm like confused about what's happening here. Okay. Can I have a question? Please.

She was moving there to be in his house? No. To with him? Okay, okay. You know, it's one of those situations where she's like, oh, I moved for work. Oh, I moved for work. I work remotely. Yeah, exactly. I work in my apartment, which just happens to be down the street from where you live. Oh, oops. Oops. Sorry. Sorry.

Okay, okay. Got you, got you. So that is Nora's line of like, that's her party line when he breaks up with her, right? She's like, I didn't move here for you. That's fine. But Malcolm is like, I do not believe her, right? He's like, I'm pretty sure she moved here for me, but whatever. Oh my God. Okay, Malcolm. A couple months after Malcolm and Nora break up, Walt, Malcolm's best friend since second grade, and Malcolm go out for drinks, okay? Walt is Malcolm's opposite, right?

He's tall and Malcolm isn't. He's broader than Malcolm is. He's the quiet one and Malcolm is always yelling. Malcolm got straight A's through college. Walt didn't, right? Walt is non-confrontational to like the nth degree. And obviously they are like buoying each other their entire friendship, right? Oh, God. Yeah, they're like, it's like a classic codependent relationship. There's like, they're like, they have an attachment thing. They're really enmeshed.

Exactly. So they sit down at the bar, right? They're like getting their little like weekly drinks or whatever. And Malcolm, because this guy has been his best friend since second grade, is like, Walt, what's wrong? Right? Because Walt is like being really weird and like, you know, not saying a lot. And Walt's like, nothing, nothing's wrong. And Malcolm's like, Walt, what's wrong?

We have been friends for a million years. Clearly, something is wrong. And Walt is like, okay, I need to tell you something. Oh, God. And Malcolm's like, yeah, no shit. Like, from the minute I walked in here, it was clear that you needed to tell me something. Tell me. And Walt's like, here's the thing. I have a really big crush on Nora.

I ran into her on a at a bar on Saturday and like I didn't do anything she didn't do anything but like I really think that I'm into her and like would it upset you if I asked her out oh god oh god how do you think Malcolm should handle this situation oh god I mean okay

Here's the thing. If Malcolm feels yucko about Nora, it's a hard one. It's a really tough one for it to go to that next. Because if you don't want Nora for you, you don't want Nora for little Waltie, you know? Yeah, you're like my best friend Walt. Yeah. And also, we haven't heard a lot about Nora, but she sounds like a bold lady. And Waltie seems like...

He's a little baby. Not to infantilize him or I deeply respect everyone so far. Anyway. Okay. Malcolm, though. Okay. So Malcolm, like, kind of agrees with you, right? Like, he's like, I do not like this girl. But he's also like, you know, I only went on two dates with her. Two dates? Right? He's like, I went on two dates with her. What gave me the yuck, she says, is that I'm not a girl.

Is that she moved here for work, right? I don't believe her, but it could be true, right? It could be true. Also, like, you never know the day of tomorrow. We say that in Brazil. Like, you never know what tomorrow is going to bring. Two dates is not a lot of information to go on. Exactly. So Malcolm is like, whatever. Like, I dated this girl for one second. If you want to date her, like, go for it, man. Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah.

And it's still Hope and Change. It's still 2014. Yes. Okay. And we have hope. Or maybe they had hope. Okay. Not forever. Okay. At first, this seems actually kind of good, right? Like the relationship seems good. Walt seems a lot happier. Like they're getting along really well, which we love. Yeah.

But they like do that play fighting in front of other people that feels like it's actual fighting. Oh. And so everyone is kind of like, I don't know about that. Right. Like they're like fighting like you're so ugly. Yes. Exactly. No, no.

Yes, like picking at each other in public. So everyone's a little skeptical of Walt and Nora, right? They're like, Malcolm broke up with her. And also they do this play fighting that we don't not like. But Walt is like the kind of guy who just like doesn't believe in himself. He like had a bad time in high school. He didn't have the grades to go to college. He just like got a part time job in retail. And he just like beats himself up about it, right? Like no matter what anyone else says, they're like, well, lots of idiots go to college, like

It's fine. Walt does not believe this about himself, right? You can't get around that stuff. If somebody doesn't believe in themselves, it's really hard. And I've been, you know, I think a lot of people have been that person, you know? Yes. So the one thing...

that everyone is like, maybe Nora is good, is that Nora very quickly in their relationship helps Walt navigate how to get into community college. Okay. And he goes to one for two years. They're dating this whole time. Two years into the relationship. Two years? Two years.

Yep, we're going forward in time. Great. Two years into the relationship, they're, like, still dating. Nora helps him transfer to, like, the big state school that everyone else went to. He, like, graduates in three and a half years. Everyone's like, we love Walt, right? So proud of him. Yeah. Yeah.

Right before Walt graduates, a job at Malcolm's company opens up and he's like, my buddy, my dude, you should apply. Yeah. Walt, through the miracle of nepotism, gets the job. So now Walt and Malcolm, two best friends, are in some like tech adjacent job where they have a lot of snacks and are happy. Okay. Okay. That's, you know, listen, yeah.

That's how the system works. And that is why we need to use gossip to dismantle it. But yes, also. How are you feeling at this point? Let's do a little bit of a check in. Two cis men relying on who I assume is a cis woman to like coach them through their difficult times and then ending up just fine at a tech company. Wow. You know, I feel like I've heard this story before. But here's how I feel.

I want the best for all of the people in this story. Yes. I want to know if Walt is really checking in with himself about what he wants and how he's doing it. Because that kind of thing where it's like someone, if someone sees you and is like, I'm going to do a fixer upper on this person. Yeah. It's a really bad dynamic. Right. And so.

So the thing we did hear from like the people we got this gossip from whom I will not specify their relationship to these people is that they said that, you know, it was really just like he needed a push. Right. So it's like it's not that she like fixed him up as much as she came in and was like, you really want to do this. I believe in you. Let me help you. Okay. So she's not like.

writing his college application no no no no no she's saying like let's get on the schedule let's do it okay okay exactly okay and this is like the one positive thing that everyone in this friend group has to say about nora is that she's very supportive of waltz question is she still doing the plane mining

Yes. Okay. And thank you so much for asking. Now we're going to build out Nora a little bit. We're going to talk about her character. Oh, God. Nora. She is the kind of person who cheats at every single game. Like once she went to a baby shower for someone on the outer circle of this group and they played a game where you got blindfolded and then you had to dress a baby doll, right? Like in a diaper and it's clothes and whatever. And Nora cheated at it. Oh, my God. Yeah.

What is, wow, there's something, there's something going on with Nora. And she's like the kind of woman who like is pretty enough to always get things for free. And our friend of a friend specifically told us she has never paid for weed in her life. She's from a family of Wiccans. And she's like one of those artistic girls that never seems to be working. Right? Wait, she doesn't have a job?

It's not that she, well, she doesn't have like a job where you go to an office, right? But it's like, it's not that she doesn't have a job. It's that she's like, oh, I'm just making my art. And everyone's like, where?

Like we don't see it. I see. I see. So she has family money. Ding, ding, ding. The only thing anyone in this friend group can understand how Nora is making money is that she's incredibly good at calligraphy, like very good at it. So she can make a lot of money doing that. Yeah. So she's doing like people's wedding invitations. Right. But it's like three people or whatever. You're like, hey, the math isn't adding up here.

Yes. And the downside of it is that she then is the kind of person who's like, oh, you're having a party. Let me do the invites for it. Okay. Oh, God. And then it takes her like forever. Right. And then they have to pay for it?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no, right? So she just is like, she's this kind of, right? It's like just kind of an exhausting person in general. Okay. Okay. I feel I'm walking alongside you. I still, no rah. No rah. Let's go. No rah. Okay. No rah. None of this is the real drama. This is all the drama.

Here we go. Now we're in the real drama. The drama is that the minute Walt graduates, Nora becomes obsessed with getting engaged. Oh, dear. Oh, God. Yes. Yes.

First, Walt tells her he's like, I want to get a promotion at work before we get engaged. Okay. Okay. Around how old are these people when this is happening? Ooh. I mean, it doesn't super matter. I want to say like late, mid-20s, right? So probably like 20, 29. Okay. Okay. So Walt doesn't, like, it takes Walt a little while to get his promotion. So Nora complains for a couple of years. Okay.

Then Walt says he wants to get a job where he can become debt-free before he's engaged, a valiant goal. But that also takes a couple of years. This whole time, Nora is complaining to everyone. No. Yeah, Walt doesn't – okay, so Walt is complaining to everyone in inner and outer circles of this group. No, no, no. Nora is complaining to everyone. Nora is complaining. Walt is not proposing. Okay.

Walt is doing passive resistance. Got it, got it, got it. Walt is just like, I don't want to get engaged until I simply have enough money to buy a house in cash. And also we've had three dogs that have lived and died entire lives. And also we... Oh my God, Nora, what is she doing? He's just like putting it off, putting it off, putting it off, right? Okay. Nora is like furious and telling literally everyone who will listen. So this is like also part of the problem, right? Is she also telling Walt?

Yes. Like they're – Okay. They're fighting about it. Yes. They're fighting about it constantly where she's like, why won't you propose? And he's like, well, we don't own a house with a marble staircase yet, so I can't. Oh, sure. Obviously. Obviously. I always wanted – I wanted to have a trench coat that had an umbrella in it. So until I have that, I can't possibly.

I have three children inside a church. Go. We cannot get married. Exactly. Exactly. But this is like such a classic sort of setup. I have empathy for both of them at this point. But okay. Okay. Lay it on. None of this drama does Malcolm here firsthand.

Like, Walt does not tell him anything about this. Walt needs some better communication skills. He hears it from one of his friends, Grace, who is, like, on the outside circle and is, like, exhausted by this. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

and Nora have had like a very tumultuous relationship ever since Nora found out that Grace had a movie night with some of the people in the outer circle that Nora wasn't invited to. Oh my God. So Malcolm is like a little bit, he's like, I don't trust Grace's intel because she hates Nora. Right. Fair, fair, fair. But other people are like,

telling Malcolm the same thing. And Grace tells Malcolm over a period of many years that Nora is talking to everyone about the fact that Walt has not proposed. Jeez. Yes. Like so many years that many members of this group have gotten engaged and married in the time that they've been dating. Oh boy.

Oh, well, Walt is speaking without speaking. You know, Walt is really saying his piece without saying a single word. Yes. If you are bullying your partner into proposing to you, you should probably not do that. But that's just my opinion. Okay. So she's just so jealous. She's like super jealous of everyone who gets engaged, right? Because she's like, when these people are getting engaged in a group, she's like, why not me? Right.

Right? And someone in the group gets engaged and she gets engaged with the exact same ring, that blue sapphire with the diamonds around it that Kate Middleton has. Oh, my God. Okay. That Nora has always wanted. Nora always wanted the blue sapphires. Got it. Okay. I mean, I can already tell this is going on the like, we're on the roller coaster to petty. It's like every single thing on the way down is like, and Kate.

There was a ribbon and a hat and blah, blah, blah. Okay. Keep going. So Nora thinks that she's like totally justified in this. Right? Yeah. And every time Walt is not with the friend group, she's like ranting about like, she's like, I'm going to give him one more chance. Right? They have, we are now at a point in the story where they have been together for 12 years. Oh,

Oh, babe. Oh, 12 years. I feel like this is like, it's like something that was alive that is dead now. Like, I mean, people have a lot of different kinds of relationships. They don't have to get married at any point. Like, that's fine. It's the rancid hatred of your partner. Yeah.

Yeah. That like, I don't think that stuff keeps very well, you know, like, I don't think that keeps outside the fridge for 12 years. Yeah. Bitterness at your partner doesn't do well for nine years. Highly, highly recommend. Yeah, I highly recommend not doing a real long fester. It's a real bad way to run a relationship. Nora is doing what I personally call the math thing.

The math is a very bad thing to do. The math is when like instead of talking and asking yourself whether you like someone or whether they make you happy or whether you want them to do things for you, you do the math. Yep. It's the math of like, yeah. The math for Nora goes like this. Well, we've been together for 12 years. That's so long. I'll never be able to date someone else for that long. Plus, I'm 32. So let's say I broke up with him.

with him. Then I'm single, right? I have to start dating. Let's say at the very earliest, I find someone to fall in love with in six months. That means we can't get engaged for six more months. So then I'll be 33. Then we'll need what? A year to plan a wedding. Then I'll be 34. And I want to be married for a couple of years before I have kids. And by that point, I'll be what? 36, 37? No, it's better for me to just stay here in this relationship that I complain about all the time than to do that. Yeah.

Math is not your strong suit, Nora. This is not good for you. I just feel like this is such a specific kind of thing that is actually, if any of you listeners have done the math, you know what this is. You know how it feels. And it is a math of desperation. Yes. Oh, God. Oh, no, no, no. Anyway. What?

I've done some math myself. I don't know if you can tell by my very visceral reaction. The thing about the math is most people do it. Like, it's a common game to play. But the problem is, is that the math isn't about your partner at all. No, no. And it's also like, yeah, it's a made up thing. It's a made up thing. It's a made up thing.

It's fake. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And it's also it's like you're not engaging with the truth of what you're dealing with. The math is like you like you think that you're doing some like a solution. But like, babe, you're not solving anything by doing this math. The thing on the other side of this equal sign is you're 38 with a baby married to someone you don't like. I know.

The math on the other side of this equal sign is that you're 40 and married to someone that you do like with a baby from a different, that's a different person. That's not this, not, not, not little, little Waltie baby who definitely doesn't, Walt just, Walt knows how to do math, man.

Come on. He went to college. He went to college. Where they don't teach you math. Yeah, exactly. I mean, listen, I would rather. Look, math is not something I'm very good at, but emotional math I'm very good at. And I got to say this equation isn't adding up. Mic drop. Okay. Sorry. Finally, in the fall of 2019, Walt proposes. No.

Walt, what are you doing, buddy? Everyone in the friend group is like big sigh of relief on the inhale. We're all saying yikes. Yep. The first thing Walt and Nora do is add everyone who's invited to the wedding to a Facebook group.

This is how they decide that they're going to communicate about the wedding. In 2019? No. In 2019. No. And you work in tech? Buddy, no. No.

Yes. Oh, dear. This is going to be... One cute thing is that Walt asked Malcolm to be his best man, which is like... Of course. Cute, right? Your best friend. Of course. That's so sweet. That's so sweet. Except for Walt, ask him to be there for you emotionally also. Please, Walt. Ask him to do one inch of emotional labor, just a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. The Facebook group of wedding invitees, as you might imagine, is...

Full of chaos. Oh, God. The first thing that happens is a random girl who none of the people in this friendship know posts about how she wasn't immediately asked to be maid of honor and quits the group. That's the first thing. Wow. Okay. Okay. Okay.

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theoretically, this should be fine, except that she picked the one weekend of the year where the whole friend group was supposed to be at like some kind of high school reunion. What? Nora is full of chaos. Yes. Everyone in the friend group is like, did she do this on purpose? Yeah. And Nora's like, no, no, no. It was just a weekend that was free.

But like she there there are at least 50 weekends in a year. 52. Right. Sorry. Yes. At least 50 weekends. At least 50. At least less than. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yep. There's there's 50 weekends. So that's the first problem with her date. The second problem with her date is that it's June of 2020. Right.

And because of the global pandemic, they cannot get married.

Oh, Nora. No, no, no. So Walt is like, well, let's just go to City Hall and get married. Like, you've wanted to be married for all this time. Like, let's do it. And Nora is like, absolutely not. Like, I have waited 12 years. I want a fucking wedding. Oh, my God. Nora. But you can't have a giant wedding in June 2020. Like, it's not safe. There's no vaccine. No. So they post in the Facebook group. They're like, we are postponing the wedding until June of 2021. What?

banking on the fact that the vaccine will be done by then. Oh, God. Oh, God. Oh, no. Okay. For the year that everyone is at home, Nora is just posting constantly. Like, she's posting about how hard it is to have her wedding rescheduled. Complaining? Yes. She's posting about how her friends and Walt aren't doing enough to, like, support the wedding and how they aren't, like, doing enough things. Oh, God. And everyone is like, ma'am, this wedding is in...

18 months. We have plenty of time to do this. Yeah. And it's not good to complain about the person that you're going to get married and all of the people. The whole point of getting married is being enshrined in love. Celebration of love. Yeah. This is not. At least lie. She needs a different group chat. She needs a different place where she can talk about this stuff. This is not appropriate. Wrong audience. Exactly. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

So one day in the fall of 2020, so now it's like we passed the original dates, fall of 2020. Yeah. This friend group is having, they're like basically in a pod together, right? They're having like an outdoor barbecue. Okay. So Malcolm is trying to talk to Grace about this because he's like, Grace hates Nora. I want to talk shit about Nora. Grace, did you see what was in the Facebook group? And Grace is like, what? What?

They go to check and Grace has been removed from the Facebook group. She's like, that's so weird. There must be some mistake. Right. So Malcolm asks Walt, right? He's like, what's up? Like I was talking to Grace about the wedding. She said she's not in the Facebook group anymore. And Walt is like, well...

You know, we needed to narrow the guest list because of the pandemic. And Nora said that I had to cut some of my friends too. Fair. And Malcolm is like, fine, but why did you cut Grace? And Walt's like, I cut a ton of people. And Malcolm's like, Walt, did you tell them? And Walt's like, I mean, I removed them from the Facebook group. Oh my God.

This is why Walt, way back during Obama years, needed to learn some communication skills. Yes. Malcolm, being like the first good friend he's been, is like, Walt, that is not how this works. You need to tell everyone that you cut from the Facebook group that they can't come to the wedding because you had to narrow the guest list. No one will be mad at you. Just simply tell people. Just say it. No one even

wants to go and celebrate your love because it is so toxic and poisonous. Yes. Okay, we are now fast forwarding to May. We are a month before the wedding. Oh, I can only imagine the boiling point that this is reached. Like, I just feel like there is so much more. Yeah, we're we went from a simmer to a boil. It's like, it's gonna boil over. In May, Walt and Nora posed to the group Facebook page. And they're like, we will not be requiring masks at the wedding.

But we will be requiring vaccinations. Their argument for this is like the wedding will be outside. This is before Delta. Yeah, that's why I was like June 2020.

They're like, everyone is vaccinated. It should be fine. It seems okay. A couple of people respond to this. And one is like, I have a toddler. I can't come. Right. Fair. One is like, I can't come because I'm immunocompromised. Right. All of these are fair. Yeah. One is like, can you live stream the wedding since like, I can't come for this. And Nora is like, absolutely not. Sorry. She removes all of these people from the Facebook group. Oh my God. Facebook.

Facebook is not the place for this to be going down. I just like can't get over the fact that this, this is the wrong vessel. This is the wrong way to communicate any, any wedding information anyway. Okay. Okay. Okay. So I think this is kind of fine, right? They're like, here's what the wedding is going to be like. Make your own. That's important. That's great. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Community communication. Nora must've done that. Yeah. The problem is that Walt is telling Malcolm that,

All the time that he is deeply uncomfortable with this aspect of the wedding because he's a people pleaser and because he thinks people should mask. Oh, my God. But he's not telling Nora. Oh, my God. These straight people need some communication. You're Malcolm. Like, what do you think he should do with his, like, sad, sad, non-confrontational friend? I don't know, man. Okay. One time, two of my friends...

were going to get married and it was not a good scene. And they had sent out their save the dates and I had a talk with both of them separately. And I said, you don't have to do this. And recently they got divorced.

The end. Anyway. How's it feel to be right? Listen, terrible. You don't want your friend to go through that. Not good. You don't want that at all. Like, I mean, it's not – there's no moral judgment. It's bad. There's no moral judgment to it. But I will say –

I think that your job as a friend is often to sort of like say hard things. I fully admit I am terrible at this sometimes. I really struggle with it. So I understand. But Malcolm is confrontational, right? So like Malcolm should be like, listen, bud, I need you to –

Either step it up or, like, maybe the three of us could have a conversation and I could, like, support you as you are telling. Like, some mediation needs to happen so that Walt does not end up in a, like, prison of lies forever. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay, so you're 50% right. Malcolm is very confrontational. Malcolm is like, I'll take care of this. I'm the best man. I'll stand up for you. He responds to the Facebook post. No!

And it's like, this is ridiculous. I think it's bullshit. Like everyone needs to wear a mask, even if they're vaccinated, because part of this is indoors, right? He's going on and on and on. Oh my God. Oh no. Nora responds to this. And it's like, if you're not comfortable, you don't have to come. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. Does he say, does he say that Walt isn't comfortable? What does he say? Malcolm is like, I don't want to miss my best friend's wedding. Right?

Right? Like, I want to stand up for him, but also now his wife, his future wife is very mad at me. So Malcolm is like, you know what? You're right. It's your wedding. Do whatever you want. He, like, apologizes as a, like, peace offering. He is like, my mom's a wine distributor. Like, she can help you get wine for the wedding for free. Oh, no. No.

He's like going deeper into it. But what he needs to do is stand up for people who are immunocompromised. He needs to stand up. What he needs to do is get his friend out of this relationship. Like one of those hooks, you know, that they used to pull people off the stage. Do that with Walt. Oh, my God. Okay. Things are calm for like a second after this happens. Oh, no. But then two weeks before the wedding, one of the people in the Facebook group

pose to the wall and is like, hi, my partner is immunocompromised. And I just wanted to make sure that everyone coming to this wedding is definitely vaccinated. Yes. Nora responds to this and is like, oh, haha, whoops. I forgot that my grandma's coming and she's a Republican and she won't be vaccinated. Everyone is like, Jesus Christ, because like, what are the rules here? Right? Like, what are we supposed to be doing? Right.

A groomsman comments on this and is like, doesn't that kind of mess up the entire point of your rules? Doesn't that kind of ruin the whole plan here? And Nora, what do you think she does? She kicks him out of the Facebook group. Tiny czar. She's like...

You know she likes doing that. She's just hitting a move from group. Yeah, she likes doing that. Sometimes she hovers. She like puts her mouse over the button. She just hovers. She's like, I want to feel alive. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. Maybe I won't do it. And she's doing it to Walt. That's what she's doing it to. Yeah. She's like, the drama. I am the center. Okay. For some reason, this, like the groomsman getting kicked out is the thing that like really upsets Malcolm. Yeah.

And Malcolm is like, you know what? It is time for me to talk to Walt. He's like, two weeks before the wedding, time to tell the truth. So 12 years into their relationship and two weeks before the wedding, Malcolm is like, listen, Walt, I don't think that Nora is like right for you. I think that you're fighting all the time. I think this is getting ridiculous. You don't have to do this. I think like...

You don't have to do this. He like lays it all on the line. Right. Malcolm goes so far as to be like, I will help you cover the cost of this wedding if you just call it off. Oh my gosh. That's really showing up. Also,

Malcolm has some money. I mean, maybe he could put it into like moving Walt into a different housing situation or I don't know. Like what is going on? Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Oh my God. Oh my God. This is so dramatic. I'm so stressed. Walt is like, I appreciate you as my buddy and my pal, but Nora is just being really dramatic because of the wedding. Like she'll calm down after the wedding is over. Oh no.

And Malcolm is like, I just, okay, fine. Whatever. But a few days later, I guess, Walt told Nora about the conversation he had with Malcolm. This is somebody trying to get out of a relationship. That's what Walt is doing in his passive way. Nora, also confrontational, sends Malcolm a text the length of the Constitution, part of which I will read. Yes, we're getting the rich scene.

You are actively working to sabotage this wedding. Your dissent in the Facebook group was embarrassing. Your apology was not enough. The wine from your mom is not enough. Walt told me that you told him that you would pay to move the wedding, and I thought...

think that's fucked up. This is our choice, not yours. You're not involved in this relationship. If you want to make things right, you and I need to have a conversation one-on-one soon so that I can forgive you and have a clear head going into our wedding. Girl, you're not going to

going to have a clear head. Not in a billion years. Literally a billion years this person will not have a clear head. Also, two weeks before your wedding is not the time to be doing this. Also, what is going on? Like, what is happening right now? I just cannot believe that this is still like, it's like watching a it just, I, it's, it stop. It needs to stop. It's just incredible. It's not going to stop. We're not there yet. Malcolm responds to this text and I quote, Nora,

We do not need to talk about this now, period. I apologized once, period. I am helping with the wedding, period. I do not want to argue with you. We need to talk about this after the wedding. Okay, Malcolm does not understand. Malcolm does not understand how weddings work, how people work. I mean, Malcolm is confrontational, but then he's a little bit of a weenie, I gotta say.

Like a real, a real, this is the moment for him to answer the red phone that's ringing in his Oval Office. And he is, he's just like unplugging the red phone, drowning it in the tub. It's like, ring, ring, ring, ring. And he's just like, bye. I don't have to deal with it. I don't have to deal with it. I'm going to lock the door. I'm going to walk away. I'm never coming home. Exactly. Exactly.

As you can imagine, Nora freaks out completely. She calls him a coward. She says that he doesn't care about her opinions. I mean, that's true. She's like, here's the deal. If you want to come to the wedding, we need to talk about it. Like, it's not just that you don't want Walt to marry me. It's because you didn't want to date me. You.

This is called conflict archaeology. I learned about it in middle school, possibly at the time when I pivoted away from being somebody who gossiped. But

We learned about conflict, like conflict resolution. And one of the techniques that I learned literally on a poster board, I have it in my head, is conflict archaeology, which is like when you are in a conflict with somebody and they start bringing up stuff from like way, way, way, way back. And it is fucked up, man. These people. Yes. Okay, keep going. Okay, Malcolm is like...

You know what? I got to tap out. This is out of my emotional league of expertise. I will simply ask Walt what I should do. Yeah. Right. He's like, I'm fighting with Walt's fiance. Walt's my best friend. I'll just ask Walt. Oh, no. Walt is not going to have the answer here. Walt tells him, and I quote, well, I guess tell her how you feel. Wrong answer. Because Walt...

does. Malcolm writes a fucking manifesto. This thing is like a research paper. It could have footnotes. He's like compiling stories from other people in the friend group. Oh, no. A dossier? He's like adding in movers. A dossier. He's writing

He's writing that Nora is a narcissist and that this wedding is a disaster wrought upon the earth to punish them all. The earth is shaking. He has like remembered the tiniest problems from a dozen years ago. He's adding them all to the letter. He's like writing down not only his problems with her, but like problems that Grace had told him about her. Telephone, telephone. He's playing telephone with all of the problems.

And worse, he's naming names. So he's saying like, Grace told me that you said he is going down with this ship and also he's lighting the ship on fire. He is also like, listen, Nora, toxic. Malcolm, also toxic. Yes. He finishes his manifesto and he emails it. Email it! Email it!

I was hoping that he would like attach it as a Google Doc to the Facebook group, but an email is also very nice. Nora responds very briefly and is like, I think you're the real narcissist. I think you're still in love with me. I think you're trying to ruin this wedding because you don't want Walt to get married. She emails it to the entire friend group. No. No. Wait, can they see his dossier? Oh, yeah. No. They sure can. Oh.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. The friend group explodes, right? It is like the earth is shaking. Skies are opening. Plates on shelves are rattling. It's nuclear winter. There's like a canyon splitting and it's like people on Nora's side and people on Malcolm's. Both sides are

are mad at each other, but they're also mad at their side. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. There's no... It's like everybody is pointing at everyone else. It's like everyone is the worst. Yeah, exactly. It's that Spider-Man meme, but it's 20 people pointing

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. So this is chaos. Nora, during this whole debacle, messages Malcolm's mom because they've been texting a lot about the wine. Oh, no. And it's like, maybe you could be on my side and talk some sense into your son. Malcolm's mom is like, absolutely not. This is a clear disaster. Oh, my God. What?

think Malcolm should do? What do I think Malcolm should do? I mean, maybe it like, does he have anywhere else that he wants to live? Like, are there other friends that he has in his life? Because like, I don't know, man. I don't like he did the thing that you can't do, which is like break the trust of everything. And you can't do it in a small group. You cannot do this to 20 people at once. You cannot do this to 20 people at once and expect anything from

to go well for you. You also I feel like we've talked about this quite a few times on this podcast, but do not put this shit in writing. You want to yell at Nora, yell at her in front of her. Have some gumption. This is all listen. I love a phone call.

And I think that phone calls need to make a resurgence. Like they're much less cursed than low rise jeans. Right. And true. Why would you put in writing what you could simply yell? And that is because you, you won't do that because Malcolm is a weenie. Just putting it out there. Weenie man. Okay. As a proof of his weeniness, Malcolm does nothing in response to this. What?

Like, how does he walk around? His text, he must have 300 unread texts because everybody who got that email is now texting him separately to yell at him because, like, he's splintered the group apart. Yes. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. We need. Two days. Two days before the wedding. This wedding is not. Oh, no. Walt texts Malcolm.

Here is their text exchange. Oh my God, I get the text exchange. Walt, I've decided that I don't think you should attend the wedding. Oh no. Malcolm, that makes sense. Oh my God. One hour later, Malcolm, you did tell me to tell her how I felt. I love the resentment that is dripping from this single line of text. That's literally like,

You know, actually, I'm just thinking about a little bit more. And like, you told me to do this, bro. Oh, my God. Walt responds and is like, well, I didn't realize that you would go quite so in depth. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. 12 hours later, Malcolm texts Walt. He says, do you still want the wine? Walt says, unfortunately, no.

Malcolm is removed from the wedding Facebook group. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I think that it was Nora communicating because Walt the weenie is not going to – Walt is not going to text this stuff with Malcolm either. Interesting conspiracy theory. I mean, listen. I love it. Yeah. I think that Nora must be doing – I mean, but it's not really Nora's style, but it is Nora's style to be like really in it with Malcolm. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay.

We are like very close to the end. Do you think that all of this drama was necessary in this situation? Oh, there were so many moments that this went wrong. And like one of them was 12 years before this happened. You know, like one of them was the plane that she got on before she moved to this city. Yeah.

And also, like, every, there are so many steps that were wrong. And they're about communication. People need to learn to communicate directly one-on-one. They need to stop doing things on Facebook almost entirely. Really, nothing at all should be done there. No. And, like, I just don't understand. I don't understand. This is, all of this could have been avoided by Walt, passive controller, being

saying what he needs and wants, you know? Yeah. It also could have been avoided because Walt is so passive. If Malcolm had just said, no, you can't date her. If at that stupid Chili's or whatever, he had been like, no. If he had taken a sip from his scorpion bowl and said, you know what? Sip, sip, sip, sip. No, no. And then Nora would have gone on to poison a whole other friend group and it would have been a whole other thing.

My God. Well, and also, Malcolm didn't say how he felt, really, right? Like, he never said... There are so many moments of miscommunication here. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Okay, okay, okay, okay. Wow. Okay. Wait. I don't think this wedding's going to happen. You don't? Tell me why. I don't think it's going to happen because...

It feels radioactive. It feels like the only way for this to happen is Nora and Walt to like go to city hall because no one will go to their wedding. Like that's like, I feel like the only way out is like cut it all off. Just no one is there. It's a, it's a quiet, there's no one there and they're just by themselves with one witness probably. Yeah.

wrong. No. Despite months of drama. Despite kicking people out of this Facebook group. Despite ruining Walt's longest friendship. No, no, no, no. Despite Walt's lack of confrontation, the wedding was normal. It was dull even. Yeah.

No, really? Everyone who went told everyone about all of this drama. And then they went to the wedding and they were like, there was nothing there. That's so wild. Like someone told us that it was the equivalent of watching a movie that had been really poorly adapted. And so it would only make sense if you had read the book.

So good. Also, like, there are people who went to that wedding and were like, this was the loveliest wedding I've ever seen. Yes. I loved it. And those people are not on Facebook. You know, like, they just like... And they did not get the email. They didn't get the email. They didn't... They just, like, went and they had a great time and they had no idea. I will say, one time I went to a wedding that everyone knew that the person had cheated on the other person. Oh, no! And they had had a very fancy...

like small celebration and between the fancy celebration and the one that I attended, which was like the big event that was like in the place, everyone, like there had been a cheating thing. There had been a breaking up thing. And it was like that. It was like, okay, I'm here. I guess I might as well dance. I'm here to watch the show and have some snacks. Here we go. I have to ask you because this story is fairly complicated. Who do you think is the villain here?

You know, they're all kind of awful. They're all doing a bad job at communicating. They're not villains. I feel like it's a tri-villainship. A triumvirate. A triumvirate of villainity. Okay. A true villain. Because they are all holding a lot of shit that they should not be holding. Nora is a villain because...

I mean, honestly, the Facebook group is really like she like she like has done many, many bad things. Their relationship is bad. Yes. Walt. OK, Walt. I don't think Walt's a villain. It's not a tri-villainship. I'm sorry. I take that back. There are two villains to this story. Malcolm and Nora. Because Malcolm could have used his big boy words and used his big boy feelings and confronted and sort of like.

been honest with his friend and been honest with Nora. Nora is bad. But, but like, I also feel like she is not getting direct communication from her partner. And, and,

Yeah. And I, I, Walt is not a villain, but definitely is not someone who is doing a great job. He's not a friend. Yeah. He's not the hero we deserve. No, definitely not. He's like, the thing is that like, it's really hard to learn how to ask for what you need. And it's really, and it doesn't always, and you don't always know. And it's really hard to get over a feeling of being inadequate or like being like self-esteem stuff. Like I really see, I see Walt and,

But he's making some really bad choices. He really is. Anyway, yeah, okay. Would you like to hear the last update that we got? I'm dying. I just, I don't understand how these people got married. I'm like really worried that they have a child. I'm really worried that right now there is a little Walti Nora walking around. Oh, you're nodding. Oh, no. I'm nodding because one, yes, there is. Oh.

They had a baby, like baby shower Wiccan ceremony and invited all of the friend group. Except for Malcolm. But the real update, the real update is that two weeks after the wedding, Walt reached out to Malcolm and was like, do you want to get drinks? And now they are best friends again. Yeah.

No conversation? No, like. No conversation. No digesting. Men need to learn how to talk about actual things. It's really important. It's important for, like, the whole future of humanity that cis men do a fucking better job than these two bunnies do. Jabroni one, Jabroni two, they're just getting drinks like nothing happened.

yeah, they're just getting their weekly drink, hanging out at the like group events. Oh my God. Just two best pros playing video games online. I want to slam my head against the wall. I am so irritated. Same. I am so irritated with these people. Like also, also it's like, are they going to therapy? Like everybody needs to go to therapy and work on their fucking issues, man. Oh man. That's me knocking on the wall.

The thing that kills me about this is I can't imagine the level of self-control you would have to have to be friends again with someone who wrote a dossier against your wife. Wait, but does Nora talk to Malcolm? Do we know that? I don't know that. But I assume so since Walt and Malcolm are best friends again. Oh my god. Okay, I have a new theory on this. Tell me. You know when there is like a family where –

one person just doesn't go to all the events and the events just happen and like there's just one person who's not there and like nobody talks about it and if you ever ask they're like oh yeah he he no he doesn't he doesn't go to events he doesn't go to events when this aunt is here like that's it you know like it's that that kind of thing but behind the scenes this is one of those where like yes this is what the seed of that this is the seed of that kind of thing where like

a 20-year grudge is going to happen and then something is going to – like something is going to happen. Right. Where like Malcolm's future child is like, why don't you like Aunt Nora? Yep. Exactly. And Malcolm's like, we don't ask those questions. We don't talk about Nora. No, no, no. You know, like – No, no, no. This is one of those where like it's really – it's like –

This is where those multi-generational, you know, like 100 years of solitude. You need a chart to understand who they are. This is the beginning of the Montagues and Capulets. It really is.

Well, Julia, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was a joy to have you. Oh my God, Kelsey. I can't believe it. This is some epic shit. Oh no. Oh, and on Facebook, I'm still mad about the Facebook thing. Thank you for listening to Normal Gossip. If you have a gossip story to share with us, email us at normalgossip at defector.com or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679-GOSSIP.

If you love this podcast and want us to keep making it, become a friend or a friend of a friend at supportnormalgossip.com. You can follow me on all social media at McKinney Kelsey. This podcast was produced by Alex Sujan Laughlin. Defector's projects editor is Justin Ellis. Our editor-in-chief is Tom Ley. Jay Toll is our production assistant. Thanks to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber-based media company.

I'm Kelsey McKinney, and remember, you did not hear this from me. Radiotopia from PRX.