S2 Ep7: Dishing in the Confessional with Emma Eun-joo Choi
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Before we get going today, I wanted to tell you about another Radiotopia podcast you should be listening to, Song Exploder. Song Exploder is an award-winning show about the creative process behind music. Artists break down one of their songs, letting you hear all the different layers in the recording, from instruments to beats to vocals. And most importantly, they talk about why they made the creative choices they did. Song Exploder is not just for music nerds. It's for anybody who cares about creativity or wants to feel inspired to create something.

It's hosted by Rishi Keshe Hiraway, who you might know from the podcast Home Cooking or the West Wing Weekly. The episodes are short, about 20 minutes each, and my recommendation is to start with an episode featuring an artist you love. And then listen to one with an artist you don't know at all. There are over 250 episodes with guests like Fleetwood Mac, Madonna, Solange, Beats,

Billy Eilish, Phoebe Bridgers, FK Twigs, The Killers, Dua Lipa, and John Batiste, and more. Each episode is really a miniature portrait of an artist and how their creative mind works, with the song as the lens we see them through. It's also a great way to discover new music. It's a different kind of experience to get introduced to a song this way, learning how and why each piece and idea came together before you hear the whole song at the end.

Find your favorite episode of Song Exploder and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts or at songexploder.net. I'm going to go with like pop off queen. Like I think that's a good job, right?

Hello and welcome to Normal Gossip. I'm Kelsey McKinney and in each episode of this podcast, we bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. Before we get into this week's ridiculous story, I just wanted to take care of some business up top. The

The first business we have to do is the bonus episode. We are yet again going to produce a bonus episode with your special stories, including your audio for after this season ends. And this season, we're looking for niche community drama stories. So we're looking for stories about your community garden, about your dog groomer, about your chess club, about your best friend's sister's roller derby team.

All of those are great. You can send in any of your niche community drama to our hotline at 2679 gossip, but please remember that the voicemail box will cut you off after three minutes, or you can send us a voice memo to our email, which is normal gossip at defector.com. We love reading your emails, but it's way better for the listener show. If we can hear your voices too. And Alex does know how to do some magic where we can adjust how your voice sounds. So if you need that, we can provide it.

Okay, the second business we need to do is just a quick reminder that the seasons are only eight episodes and two bonus episodes. This is episode seven, which means there is one more episode. And what that means is that we are about to take a break again so that Alex and I do not die of exhaustion.

But this time, because we have introduced subscriptions, you can get access to special monthly secret episodes where one of you comes on to tell me a gossip story while we're on break. We recorded the July episode last week and it was a real banger. I was laughing my ass off about it. It was really fun.

At both levels of subscription, friend of a friend and friend, you'll get access to the secret episodes. But if you subscribe at the friend level, you can also enter a pool to be a guest on our next secret monthly episode. You'll also get added to our close friends circle on Instagram. And a lot of the friends on there have added us back to their close friends circles on Instagram, which is very fun. So please do that because we love secrets.

And your subscriptions support more than just us. Normal Gossip is a part of Defector Media, which is a subscriber-based media company. So we can only do what we do because of subscribers. Thank you so much to everyone who has become a friend or a friend of a friend. And if you want to become a Normal Gossip subscriber and support us and Defector Media, you can do that at supportnormalgossip.com.

Okay, no more business. Time to go. This week on the show, we have Emma Choi. She is a comic, writer, journalist, and host of the weekly comedy podcast, Everyone and Their Mom on NPR. Emma, welcome. How are you? I'm so excited to be on the podcast. Your podcast is like one of three I actually listen to, including my own. So I'm very excited. Oh my God, that's such a compliment. Thank you so much.

Emma, let's like start off with the classics. What is your relationship with gossip like?

I was raised Catholic, so I was taught that gossip is a huge sin. Okay, God hates it. Exactly. And everyone was like, you got in confession, you got to get the gossip. Yeah, confess the gossip. And I kind of feel like the priest just wanted to know what was going on with the fourth graders. You're in confession like, Father, I am sorry for saying that Emily is an annoying brat. Literally. Because she...

No, like I was like dishing in the confessional and I'm like, now I'm like, why did I do that? Like Father Brian didn't need to know that. But yeah, when I was a kid, I was very anti-gossip. But now like as an adult, I'm like,

I don't even know what gossip is, you know? Because there's, like, the classic shit-talking. But, like, there's also, like, you know, good gossip where it's just, like, sharing information with your friends. So I don't know. I don't know what my relationship with gossip is these days. So, like, if your friend...

told you like I have some gossip to share what is your like preferred medium for receiving this gossip like do you want them to text it to you do you want them to call you immediately on the phone like what's your ideal scenario to be gossiped within well I'm in college so all my friends live in a one mile radius so like I guess stop bragging sorry about it

Yeah. I mean, so like that's, that's fun. So I guess like I would just be like, let's grab dinner. And then, but I feel like gossip is like, you kind of just want to eliminate the paper trail. So you just want to meet in person and be like, okay, let's talk. Yeah. What is that like, like for you? Like how does your body respond when you're gossiping?

I think it depends on the gossip because like I think that if it's like who's sleeping with who, I'm like I'm in there. I'm leaning in. You know, I'm taking notes. Like I'm invested because love is important. But if it's like, you know, if it's something like nefarious or something like bad happened to one of my friends, like I go into like student peer counselor mode where I'm like asking the right questions. I'm doing active listening, you know. So, yeah, I guess it depends.

Yeah, what I guess. So something people have, like, they've made a really clear distinction when talking on this podcast between liking gossip and being a gossip. Do you like hold this distinction in your head?

I guess, I don't know. I guess I would identify with the first one because I've never considered myself a gossip. Why? Although, I just, like, I just don't really know what gossip is. Like, when I go to a party or something, like, the first thing I'm looking for is not to, like, oh, my God, did you hear what Kendall did? It's, like, to catch up with people. But I do love a juicy morsel. I will say that. So I guess I like gossip. So where is the line to you between catching up with someone and gossip? Well.

I think because for me, gossiping is like giving it and receiving it is not so much gossip to me. I guess, which is a weird thing. Yeah, so you view yourself as like completely in the clear if you're only a sponge absorbing other people's gossip. Well, if you ask for it, you know, if you're like one of those nosy ladies in a church hat and you're like, oh my God, like, you know, what have you been, have you heard from Kelsey? Are you dating anyone? Yeah, then that's a gossip. But if I'm like,

sitting there I guess I have a lot of really gossipy friends you know and in comparison I'm not a gossip so I kind of just absorb you know okay so you're like an Olympian saying that you're not fast you're like I'm not a gossip like all my friends do maybe I am a gossip I don't know

I just, I don't know. I just feel like I haven't heard the word gossip in like a really long time. So I just never really like contextualized, you know, what we talk about as gossip. Tell me what you mean by that. Like you haven't heard about the word gossip in a long time. It's like the term gossip kind of disappeared after like eighth grade. And like, we just don't like...

Like, I used to be like, we're gossiping right now. That's not cool. And now I'm, like, I don't know. I just kind of struggle to figure out, like, a time where, like, someone gave me juicy gossip, you know, where I think it's just like, oh, I found out that, like, you know, Declan is sleeping with, like, Paul. And that's weird because they're such different heights, you know? Yeah, that's interesting, though, that you say that you feel like the term gossip

disappeared. Like, I wonder if that's a cultural thing or if it's just the circles you're in. Do you have any insight? Yeah, I suspect it's a Gen Z thing, you know, because I think we were the first generation to grow up with, like, therapy buzzwords, you know? Like, I'm processing this right now. Can I process this out loud with you? And that's just gossip, right? Right. It's not gossip if it's a whisper network. It's not gossip if you're doing trauma processing. Yeah. Like, I've heard that so much. Like, you're gaslighting me. Like, I need to process this out loud. And I'm like,

girl you shouldn't be telling me this you're like girl you can't process someone else sleeping with someone else I know that's just gossiping yeah that's really interesting though do you have any like have you had any friends that have had like bad boyfriends that you didn't like any feelings on this yes

Say more. Please. Yeah. It's like, I come, my friend group is always, like, kind of, like, nerdy girls with a lot of, like, who, like, really love little women, you know? So we always choose, like, the worst guys, you know? So, like...

My friends only recently hooking up and dating nice boys. But like, oh my God, especially like my gay friends, my lesbian friends, like choose some of the worst woman on the earth. And I'm like, I thought women were supposed to be better, you know? But no, it's tough watching people go through that. Players come in every form. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That's funny that you mentioned Little Woman. I think you're going to really like where we're going today. Are you feeling ready? Do you want to get into it? Do some gossip? Yeah, let me have it.

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Hosted by Maria Garcia, this is My Devo, an Apple original podcast produced by Futuro Studios. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts. So today's story is about the epic highs and lows of high school love.

What's happening? I'm in it. I'm in it. Okay, okay. We are journeying many years into the past. We are zooming into the lush green backdrop of the Pacific Northwest. The trees very tall, the sky full of clouds, the city where our main character, Hannah, lives with her family is like a tech hub. It has lots of shiny buildings downtown. And Hannah and her family live in like a neighborhood a little north and west. Yeah.

Okay, she sounds a lot like my cousin Hannah, but I hope it's not her. Oh, no. Wow. I also hope it's not your cousin Hannah because things are not going to go well for her. Hannah is the only kid at home right now, right? Like all her older siblings have graduated and moved away. So she has like a little bit more freedom than other girls her age because like her parents aren't paying attention to her.

Does this, do you identify with this at all? Is this the opposite of your high school experience? How do you feel about this? It sounds, it sounds familiar. I got a younger brother, older sister. So I get, you know, being home alone. Sure. So one thing Hannah knows about herself because her older sister, Rachel will never shut up about it is that she is an absolutely hopeless romantic.

Okay, we're talking 2007 Pride and Prejudice, Mr. Darcy Handflinch, romantic. We're talking Watches Notting Hill when she's sick, romantic. We're talking about the kind of girl who draws hearts on her notebooks, the kind with like a wedding Pinterest board she's addicted to, the kind who dreams of like big gestures and big proclamations and big love. Oh, something's gonna go so wrong. Yeah.

Oh, God. How do you feel about this? Do you think it is? Yeah, go. It sounds like me in high school, you know? And I got my heart broken so many times. So I'm ready to sink into this story. All right. Okay. Well, I'm sorry about being a high schooler, which is terrible for everyone. Yeah. Okay. So as a romantic, Hannah has decided that she deserves a date to prom.

She's asked her friends and she's like, do any of y'all know anyone who might be a good date for me? Like, I don't need a good boyfriend or someone to fall in love with. I just need a date. So one of her friends sets her up with Liam. Liam is exactly who she was hoping for. He's tall. He has floppy hair. He texts her back instantly. Oh, God.

Okay. Why are you saying oh god already? What? Because my brother's in high school and they all – I'm so judgy. I'm sorry. But they all have the TikTok hair that's so floppy. And they all look terrible. And also any boy who texts back right away is probably not the kind of guy that is going to treat you right in high school. But you know what, Hannah? Keep – Hannah is going to do what she's going to do. So keep going, Kelsey. Okay. Okay.

He is, to Hannah's delight and surprise, extremely good at the big gesture. Right. So like he asks ahead of time for prom for like a fabric sample from her dress so that he can get like a tie to match. Right. Okay. He gets a limo to pick them up. He gets her a corsage for her wrist and a bouquet of flowers. He is like all out. Yeah, that's great.

Do you think that our dear baby Hannah will be able to go to prom and enjoy it and then do as she said and let this fantasy go? No. No. Why not? Because, like, one night of magical romance and then that – for a romantic, that's like, you know, try and crack for the first time. You need more of it. I'm sorry if that's insensitive. No, it's exactly correct. Hannah is like, you know –

If it sounds like a rom-com and it looks like a rom-com and it feels like a rom-com, maybe it is a rom-com and maybe Liam is the one for me. Oh, baby. Oh, God. Okay. She and Liam immediately begin dating.

Like all summer, her friends are like, where are you? She's like, oh, I'm with Liam. And they're like, doing what? And she's like, oh, we're just hanging out. And they're like, no, it's senior year. Hang out with us. And Hannah's like, I promise I will, but I just also want to hang out with Liam. Wait, is she going into senior year or is she just graduating? Going into senior year. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, so by the fall of the senior year, Hannah and Liam are inseparable, right? Her friends are like, Hannah, you're giving Liam so much attention. He was just supposed to be like some guy you took to prom. And then if you want him to be some summer sling, fine. But like, what's happening? Okay. Yeah.

Hannah explains to them, she's like, no, no, no. The thing is, Liam is actually a great boyfriend. Like, he's always bringing me little presents. He's like the kind of guy who like plans. Why are you making a face? I don't believe in gift giving as a love language. Okay. I just think it means you're materialistic. But yeah.

Okay. It's fine. Sorry, I will be more placid. No, I think that's the right feeling. Okay, so he's the kind of guy who plans elaborate dates and whisks her away to fancy dinner and plans a big walk, right? He's like this guy. And Hannah's like...

he's so romantic and she also tells her friends she's like he's just really really lonely like he doesn't have a ton of friends he's the only one of his siblings left at home just like me his parents are divorced and they got divorced in like a really messy divorce they were like in and out of court trying to decide alimony for like years and like constantly fighting and now they live in

separate, both giant houses in the same fancy neighborhood. And Liam has to like commute between their houses. Okay. So there she is like, Liam needs me because he doesn't have like time. Okay. That right there. That's that's Liam. Liam needs me. Men's name needs me. That's, that's, that's a bad sign. That's not good.

But yeah. Okay. Logging that for later. Hannah disagrees. Hannah is like, this is great. I have a boyfriend who's romantic and likes me. And my boyfriend is often in one of his parents' giant houses all by himself. Maybe I can have a boyfriend and I can lose my virginity this summer or this school year. Right? She's like, everything's coming up, Hannah. Yeah.

Things do work out for Hannah, but it's, like, a little harder to pull off than she initially expected. First off, Liam hates his dad. Like, absolutely hates his guts. Like, Liam's dad is completely unaware of everything. He meets Hannah several times and never learns her name. He, like, doesn't know anything about what's going on with Liam. So Liam, like, refuses to spend time at his dad's house every time he can help it. Right? Right. Justified. Justified.

And at Liam's mom's house, it's like hard for them to be alone because Liam's mom is like a little more of an attentive parent. So she's around. And also her best friend, Jesse, is always around. Best friend or quote best friend? We'll just say best friend. All right. Jesse is Liam's mom's best friend. He's about a decade younger than Liam's mom.

And he and Jesse. Oh, he. Oh, sorry. Okay. No, no, no. That's a good clarification. And he and Liam's mom have been close like ever since the divorce. Jesse like helped her regain her footing. He helped her redecorate her house. He helped her like reemerge into society. He is like always at Liam's mom's house drinking margaritas and hanging out.

And Liam, yeah, great. Liam tells Hannah, he's like, just a heads up. But like, Jesse is my mom's like best gay friend. But Jesse is also like closeted still. Like even though he's a full adult, he like works at some law firm. I don't really understand it. But like my mom says that he's just like not comfortable being out. And so like, don't press him on it. Hannah's like, that sucks, right? Like it sucks to not feel like you can, you're able to come out.

Hannah's also like, but also doesn't he have his own apartment? Like, can't he not be at Liam's mom's house where we're like trying to make out? Yeah. Okay. So despite Jesse and Liam's mom, Hannah and Liam do find time like to be alone. Teens are crafty, you know. Yeah. But this means that her friends are seeing her like even less than before. Right. She has just disappeared off the face of the earth. Okay. In the fall. Yeah.

Hannah applies to all the same schools as Liam and doesn't tell anyone. That, I mean, all right. I mean, like, I'm not surprised. I'm disappointed in her, you know? Yeah. Are they good schools?

Kind of, right? Like they're not bad schools, right? But like they're not the schools that she wants to go to. Oh, girl. Yeah. No man is worth your future, especially when you're 17. Girl. Okay. All right. Yes. Yeah. So she and Liam both get in to Colorado University at Boulder, right? Great. Good state school. Great. Yeah.

She tells her parents and her friends, she's like, I'm going to Colorado University. Everyone is stunned. Hannah has like her whole life been a hometown girl, right? Like she's like, I'm never leaving the Pacific Northwest. I love it here. I want to stay here forever. Okay. So her friends are like, what do you mean you're going to Colorado University? And they like press her on it. And she tells them about how Liam cried when she told him how much she wanted to go to Colorado with him.

Oh, male tears are so manipulative. They're so manipulative because they're like, you only get to see me cry when I really mean it. I'm like, shut up. When you're doing what I want from you. Yeah. Yes. I hate that. Okay. And she's like, isn't it so romantic? Like we both pressed accept on our like applications at the same time.

that's not romantic. That's like, that makes me cry. You know, as a Neo girl boss, I hate that. I hate it. Hannah is like, everyone is like Hannah, but you love the Pacific Northwest. Like this isn't romantic. This is crazy. And Hannah's like, but I also love Liam. Yeah.

How are you feeling? I just like, you know, I can't stop it. You know, I'm here listening. I've almost been this girl. I get it. But I feel sad for her. And I hope she wakes up. You're about to feel worse. Oh, no. So you know how there's a deadline for when you're like, when you have to decide where you're going to college? Yeah, May 1st, right? Yes. The day after that deadline, May 2nd.

Liam tells her that he's decided to go to the state school 10 miles away instead of going to Colorado University. Oh, that's bad. What does he do? He's like, I know that you were really excited about going to Colorado and I didn't want to sway you away from that passion, but I just like changed my mind and I think it's better for me to stay here. Liam, what the hell? Is this his real name? Is he actually named Liam? I've never met a Liam in my life. He anonymized everyone's name. Oh, damn it. Well, oh.

I hate him. Also, he sounds white. And that shouldn't impact my decision about whether or not to like him, but... Oh my god. What is up with him? And he says he loves her? Mm-hmm. Ugh. He better not propose.

But keep going. When Hannah's older sister, Rachel, hears about this whole little shenanigan, she is like lit with the fire of a thousand suns, right? Like she's furious. She's like, you don't see what's happening here. You don't see how he's manipulating you. Like you're making a huge mistake. And also like colleges say that you have to decide by May 2nd, but like there are always ways around things and out of things. Like you do not have to go to Colorado. You can make a different decision.

Yeah. Hannah, receiving this advice from her older sister, digs in her heels. And she's like, no, I want to go to Colorado University. I wanted this all along. It doesn't have to do with Liam. Look, I respect the commitment to the bit, okay? But you got to let it go at a certain point.

agree hannah does not let it go she goes to colorado university and she lasts one year of long distance and then she moves back to the pacific northwest to go to the same school as liam so we're like two years in now we are two years in now oh my god also i've never met a guy who loves doing big gestures who was not manipulative as hell you know like if you're gonna give a gross to a girl like

Do it in your car. I don't know. You don't want to meet 5,000 people watching. Mm-hmm. All right. Okay. So they're dating this whole time. Yeah, stressing me out. Because she's now like – it's very stressful. Yeah. No, it's good. Because she's now like back in the same city as him, they're just like spending all their time together again. Yeah. For all of their sophomore year, things are like fine. Yeah.

They live near each other. Hannah becomes like really close with Liam's mom during this time. Like just like Liam, Liam's mom is like very thoughtful and very communicative. She's always giving Hannah like little gifts. They like text all the time. They're like really close. Hannah is always at Liam's mom's house. Even sometimes like if Liam isn't there.

So she spends a lot of time with Liam's mom and with Jesse, who is also always there. All summer, she and Liam are just, like, hanging out at his mom's house with his mom and Jesse. Okay. This is the summer between sophomore and junior year. How are we feeling at this point? I mean, like...

The relationship between a romantic girl and her boyfriend's mom is very special, right? Like me and my boyfriend's mom are very close. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, which is nice, but there's a limit, right? And Liam has not shown me that he deserves this level of love.

So I worry for Hannah. And I worry that it's getting worse. Oh, boy, is it? Yeah. So far, this is not juicy. This is just terrifying to me. So now we're in the fall of their junior year of college. Yeah, I'm a junior. I feel it. Liam is getting, like,

really downtrodden. He's like not his usual self. He's like not doing any of his grand gestures or planning dates. He's like barely communicating at all. Hannah like presses him on it and he explains that he just like doesn't feel like what he's learning in school is equipping him for the career that he wants. Yeah.

Okay. And he's like, which is an understandable thing to be upset about. Yeah. He's like, all I want is to be a filmmaker. Like I'm studying film in school, but all they're doing is like artsy fartsy one act atmospheric movies. Yeah.

And like, I don't want to do that. Liam wants to make slasher fix. He wants gallons of fake blood. He wants the kind of like scary movie that seeps into your subconscious and makes it impossible for you to look at mirrors ever again. Right. Like he's tired of school. He wants to quit school. He's like, I just want to do my movies. Yeah.

Yeah, I guess that Liam was a filmmaker from the onset. Like, film boys will do this shit all the time. Oh, God. Yeah, because they've seen all the rom-coms. Yeah, yeah. And also because, like, they prefer the girls they see in movies than the ones that exist in real life. You know? All right. Hannah's like, both your parents are rich. Like, why don't you just quit school if you don't want to do it?

And Liam's like, no, I can't quit school because my dad said that he'll cut me off if I don't finish my undergrad. Okay. Exactly. Hannah's like, okay, whatever. But in the back of her head, she's like, there has to be a solution here. She's like, what I'll do, I'll talk to Liam's mom. Oh. What? Oh, it sounds like it's ramping to something. She's like, Liam's mom knows how to manipulate Liam's dad. Like, maybe there's a way out of this for Liam. Mm-hmm.

So Hannah goes over to Liam's mom's house and she's like, what do you think that he like, what do you think he should do? And Liam's mom is like, well, he can't quit school. Like there's no way around that. His dad is like not going to tolerate it. Like it's just absolutely a non-starter, but he could just start like working on a movie right now. Like he could use the money that his dad is giving him on like a monthly basis to produce his little slasher film if he wants to do that. And like, as long as he's passing his classes, nobody is going to say anything.

Yeah. Yeah. Every filmmaker I know has a rich daddy who helps them through it. Like this sounds perfect. Exactly. So Hannah's like, great idea. Problem, Liam doesn't know how to do anything. And Liam's mom is like, well, Jesse could help him. Okay. Up until this point, there are only three things that Hannah like really knows about Jesse. And they are, he's closeted gay man. He's always at Liam's mom's house. And he loves the Mamma Mia trilogy. Okay.

So Hannah is like, how is Jesse going to help in this scenario? He seems like he's useless to helping Liam figure out how to do this film. And he's seen all the Mamma Mia's, okay? Maybe he's worth something. Listen, that's the Criterion Collection for us. That's true. Okay, so Liam's mom is like, yeah, but Jesse works with a bunch of money people who do the money stuff for a bunch of Hollywood productions. So I bet he can help you.

Hannah's like fine. So the next time she's at Liam's mom's house, she like talks to Jesse and he's like, oh yeah, like Liam can definitely do this. Like these are the steps he would need to take to like make something that could be like submitted to festivals or whatever. Jesse and Hannah like sketch out a plan for how Liam can like make this movie all on his own with like the $5,000 a month or something obscene that his dad is giving him. Oh my God. All right. I know.

Liam begins working on what we will call, quote unquote, his movie in the winter of his junior year. Okay, the quotes are giving me pause. Can you imagine how this is going to go? I don't know. I dislike Liam so much that I assume that he's going to embezzle the money and get himself Martha Stewart in. How's he going to embezzle it? It's his own money. Oh, my God.

I don't know, run a pyramid scheme or something? That's a great point, yeah. I don't think he's going to use it wisely. Also, I still don't understand how, like, why isn't Liam doing this? Like, if Liam wants to be a filmmaker, he's got to be proactive, you know? He has to find his own stuff. Like, you can't have your girlfriend doing stuff for you forever. ♪

Oh my God, Alex, remember the week that you moved to a completely different state and then also at the same time we had a company retreat that was in New York City? That was not my strongest planning moment in my entire life. Well, it's a hard moment to plan for because you're like living in four different places basically. One thing that I did plan really well though was that I ordered a Factor box for the day after I came back from New York. What's a Factor box?

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It is so relatable to me. I would like never check my bank account unless I really, really have to because it gives me so much anxiety. And is there a reason that you check your bank account now? Yeah, I get these awesome emails from Rocket Money that are like, hey, FYI, this is how much you spent last week. And it feels like a gentle person holding my hand as I go to my bank account. Oh, yeah.

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Okay, so Liam is like, Hannah, this is a great idea. I love this idea. What I'm going to do is I'm going to buy adaption rights to like an already written slasher short story that I can then adapt into a movie. Fine, whatever. He like uses his dad's money to buy like all the equipment he needs to do his little like hobby thing.

Hannah, in the meantime, is being like the best girlfriend that's ever existed. She's like helping him audition actors. She's helping him find filming locations. She's like helping edit his script. Yeah.

When Liam decides like randomly one day that it's very important that this movie have a child actor or it will not be complete. Hannah like looks up what kind of legal protections they need and like downloads a contract to like for this kid to sign. Wow. It seems like this is Hannah's movie. It does. That's why I use the quotes because it seems like it's Hannah's movie. It is chaos constantly. Yeah.

Like they do end up filming the movie like they're filming, but people are just like quitting at every turn, right? Like a producer quits, makeup artists are quitting, the child star quits. They're all just like quitting because this is a disorganized mess like run by this like 21 year old who just like does not seem to know what he's doing or care. Hannah is working like all the time to try and make this work.

They have like hours and hours of footage, tons of material. Liam keeps being like, no, we need to shoot this other scene. No, I need like this from another angle. Like we need to reshoot this detail. I need to spend like oodles of money so that we can get this like one blood streak right. What do you think that Hannah should do?

I mean, what do I think she should do? I think she should leave him forever and, you know, spill blood in his face. But what do I think she's going to do? You know, I think she's going to be like, sure, Liam, whatever you say. What Hannah does is complain to Liam's mom about how tired she is. Okay.

And while she's like complaining, you know, this like giant kitchen island, this huge house. Nancy Meyers, yeah. Yes. Jesse, who's also there, is like, what is Liam even doing? Like, it sounds like you're doing a lot. And Hannah's like, he's doing things. And Jesse's like, okay, what? And Hannah's like, I make him to-do lists. Like, plus he's editing the movie. He's like in his room for hours editing the movie every day. And Jesse's like, okay. Yeah.

It sounds to me like maybe he's just trying to shoot more scenes because he's afraid of, like, finishing the project. Maybe you could talk to him about that. Yeah, I mean, I guess, like, I still don't know why Jesse's here, you know? No one does. Yeah, like, thanks, Jesse, Mama Mia, sir. And, like, I just, like...

Yeah, I think, you know, Liam should go to a therapist. But I guess, you know, the next best thing is your girlfriend, question mark. So, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I guess go talk to him. See what's going on.

Okay, so Hannah does go talk to him. Hannah goes to Liam and she's like, I really think that you have plenty of material. I think like maybe you're just afraid. I also think that this has like the potential to be good. And frankly, like I'm also trying to graduate from college. So like, we are now in our senior year and I like cannot keep doing your movie all the time. Mm hmm.

Liam's like, you're totally right. I'm dragging my feet. Thank you for pushing me. Like, thank you for helping me so much. I'm sorry. He's like, I got you this present. The present he has gotten Hannah is a beautiful diamond necklace. She loves it. She's so happy. Where do you get the money for that? Great question. Yeah. For months, Liam is like editing his movie in his room, right? He like won't let anyone see it. He's being a perfectionist. Hannah is like,

doesn't really understand this she's like art probably needs like space to get good or whatever i love hannah right before christmas liam comes to her and is like hey i'm so sorry for the late notice but like do you happen to be free on christmas eve and hannah's like uh yeah because her family like doesn't celebrate christmas eve so she's like yeah i don't have anything to do and liam's like would you be willing to come with me to dinner with my family

And Hannah's like, yeah, of course. I eat meals with your mom all the time. Like, I don't give a shit. And Liam is like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. My dad has gotten this ballistic idea that it would be good for all of us to have dinner together. Uh-oh. And Hannah's like, why? Yeah. Why? And Liam is like, I don't know why, but he has made it very clear that we are all to be there.

So like, I'm basically begging you as my girlfriend of four years to like, please come to this terrible dinner with me. Yeah, it sounds like he's gonna do an intervention or like expose him in a three point PowerPoint, you know, but I don't know. Hannah's like, this sounds like it's gonna suck. But like, I don't have plans. You're asking me really nicely to go like, I'll go.

They arrive at this Christmas Eve dinner and it is like capital F fancy, right? Like I'm talking about like the name of the restaurant is just like,

etched in cursive into a, like, tiny copper plate. Yeah, I get you. This is a two Michelin-starred restaurant, right? What? We're talking, like, $450 a plate. We're talking, like, the food is all colorful foam, right? Like, they bring out, of course, this is salad. It's just, like, four or five cubes of cucumber that are, like, perfectly seasoned, right? Yeah. Everything is immaculately prepared. It is fancy. Okay. At this dinner, we have Hannah and Liam. Mm-hmm.

Liam's mom, Liam's two older brothers and their wives, Liam's dad, and Liam's dad's hot new wife. She got remarried already? Wait. I guess it's been a love time. Okay, sure. Yeah. Milk alert. Yeah. Okay.

Yes. Liam's dad's hot new wife is insufferable. She's like maybe 25. She will not stop talking. Hannah is just like guzzling wine, right? She's like, I'm miserable. There are so many bottles of wine. Like this place is so expensive. There's not even like a wine list, right? Like Liam's dad just pre-ordered a bunch of bottles of wine that now they're just refilling her glass like a wedding. Oh, yeah.

Okay. Liam's dad's hot new wife is like only drinking gimlets, right? She's like pounding them. Everyone is trying to have a good time, but the tension is just like palpable, right? Hannah is like trying to talk to Liam's brother's wives and they're just like not having it. Like no one is biting. Everyone seems to have this like silent shroud over them. And Hannah like leans over to Liam and she's like, why is this so weird? Like, why is everyone being so quiet? Isn't this supposed to be like fun? Yeah.

Isn't it supposed to be a celebration? And Liam's like, this is my dad's version of celebration. Okay. And Hannah's like, well, it sucks. Yeah.

Yeah. She's like looking around. There's like a window where you can see the chefs, you know, and the chefs are like using little tweezers to place like individual tiny coils of women onto like perfectly rolled gelato. Yeah, I love that shit. Hannah's like, fuck yeah, gelato. I love it here. She's like, honestly, the dinner, the atmosphere is terrible, but the dinner is great. Yeah. So she's like staring through the chef window for the gelato, right? She's just like waiting for it to be brought to her. And while she's staring there, like tuning out this conversation that she's

Liam's dad is having. Walking from another room in the restaurant, she sees Jesse and some guy. Okay. And she's like, Jesse, hey.

And Jesse comes over and, like, kisses her on the cheek and is like, it's so good to see you. This is Eric. Hannah's like, hello, Eric. I've never, like, heard your name in my life, but nice to meet you. But she can't really, like, focus on him, right? Liam's, like, shaking Eric's hand. Jesse's like, okay, so good to see y'all. Have a great dinner. Bye. And he leaves. And Hannah is like, why didn't he say hi to Liam's mom? Oh, okay.

That's weird. Like he came up to this table. He kissed me on the cheek. He introduced me to Eric. He said hi to Liam. Did not say a word to Liam's mom. And they're supposedly on good terms, right? Yes. Yeah, that's weird. That's really weird. Yes. It gets weirder. The minute Jesse leaves, right? Like he's out of earshot. Liam's dad turns to Hannah and is like, who's your friend? Hannah is like, that's Jesse. He's not really my friend. Right.

He's Liam's mom's friend, but like we are also friends, I guess, or whatever. And Liam's dad turns to Liam's mom and is like, who is that?

Every single child is staring directly at the plate in front of them. Both of Liam's wives are like anxiously swirling the wine around their glass. Both of Liam's brothers' wives are swirling the wine around in their glass. Liam is like picking at a cuticle, right? Everyone is like stressed. Yeah.

Hannah is just like filled with dread. And Liam's mom is like, oh, Jesse is just a friend. And Liam's dad is like, what do you mean he's just a friend? And Liam's mom is like, Jesus Christ, Mark. Like he's gay. He's my friend. I'm allowed to have friends. Your like hot young wife is right here. Yeah. Hannah is like in shock because she's like, one, isn't he closeted? Like, should she be saying this in a restaurant? Seems like no to me. Two, why?

what is happening? Like, why are we doing this? Yeah. No one says anything for the rest of the dinner. Everyone is just like silent. They just have dessert left, but still Hannah feels like she ruined dinner. Right. Because she's like, did I make some kind of fatal error? Like, it seems like I made one like after the dinner, what do you think Hannah should do?

I guess like I take Liam aside and I'm like, yo, that was crazy, right? You know, and like get anything. And then like if I maybe I talked to Liam's mom and I'm like, hey, like, what was that?

Yes, you have entered the Hannah mine palace. Yeah, yeah. She does. Yeah, I've been Hannah. Yeah, weird. I don't like it. I'm feeling bad. She's like, is it cool with you? If I go like, say I'm sorry to your mom. And Liam's like, yeah, of course. So she goes and talks to Liam's mom. And she's like, I'm so sorry. Like, I would not have said hi to him if I knew that like, we weren't supposed to. And Liam's mom is like, it's fine. Liam's dad goes off about everything. Like, it'll die down.

It does not die down. At Hannah and Liam's graduation in May, Liam's dad explicitly is like, Hannah, what's up with your friend Jesse?

And Hannah's like, uh, I don't know what is up with Jesse because he's not my friend. And also it is my graduation. Yeah. Hannah is also really stressed because Liam has asked her to move to Los Angeles with him so that he can pursue his dream of becoming a filmmaker. This means that five years after dating, she could actually live with him. Yeah.

Why are you making that face? Because, like, it's just, like, don't do it, Hannah. You know, like, so many, like, I'm 100% sure by now that this is a white family because a Korean family would not do this, right? I guess it's not a Korean family. But just, like, you know, like, go to L.A. because you want to go to L.A. But also, like, L.A. is such an isolating place if you don't know anybody. And also there's going to be a thousand asshole horror filmmakers anywhere you go. Yeah.

And also you haven't lived together. That seems interesting for how intense you are together. And also what's with that diamond necklace, Hannah? I'm interested in that. So yeah, a lot of pieces in the air for me right now, Kelsey. Okay. Hannah is like, I really want to go to LA with him, right? Like I love him. Of course she does, right? Of course she wants to go to LA. But Hannah does feel like a little bit of like a question mark in her heart in that she is like,

The last time I did this, he did not come to college with me and he stayed in the Pacific Northwest. And she's like, and also, I know that I want to be in the Pacific Northwest long term. Like, I know that I want to live here and like have kids here and like this is where I want my future to be. She's like, so I'm feeling a little bit of hesitation about this. She also has another hesitation.

Which is that after graduation, Liam finally showed her his film. It was bad. And it was unwatchable. He edited it down to two and a half hours. No.

Even though Hannah, like, edited the script and was there for all of filming, she, like, could not follow the plot of it. Like, half the shots are out of focus. The fake blood, like, looks clumpy on the screen. The whole thing is, like, shot so dark that you, like, can't see anyone's facial expressions. The child star that she, like, worked so hard to get has been completely cut from the film. Oh, my God. But at the end, in the credits...

He's like, thank you so much to Hannah for all of her help. And she's listed for all the things that she did, which Hannah finds very romantic. That's the bare minimum. That's not romantic. That's just contractual ovulation. So these are Hannah's hesitations about moving to LA. She's like, last time you abandoned me. I know that long term I want to be in the Pacific Northwest. And also it seems like you might be bad at making films. I mean...

I'm joyful because I really wanted him to be bad at making movies. You cursed him. Yeah, I cursed him. I do not like this man. But I get it. Like, it's hard because, like, if you love somebody, but, you know, your brain and your heart and your gut are all telling you different things, and it's a hard decision. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So Hannah's like, you know what?

I don't know a ton about film. Like, maybe I just don't get it. She's like, it's not for me to decide whether Liam can work in Hollywood. That is for someone else to decide. She's like, the only thing I need to decide is, like, whether or not I want to move to L.A., like you said. Yeah. Like, is this something I want to do? Mm-hmm.

Because it's graduation, her sister, Rachel, is in town. Rachel is like, you need to set some fucking ground rules. You need to stand up for yourself. Yeah. Hannah, because she's impressionable, does. On her next fancy date with Liam, she's like, here's the deal.

I will move to LA with you for your career, but you have to promise me three things. One, you will sell your Mustang and get a big car and we can like road trip down route one together. Right. So I get like a cute vacation. I like that. Two, when we get there, I get to get a dog and you will find us an apartment that allows dogs. Okay. Yeah. Three, you get five years and then I get to decide where we live.

I love it. Yeah, I think that's – I wish she would have said more, but I think that's a good start for someone who seems like they have never done that in their life. Exactly. She set one boundary, and we're proud of her for that. Yeah, which is sad. But you know what, Hannah? You're learning. It's good for you. Okay, so Liam, to his credit, agrees to this. He's like, that all seems really fair. He finds them an apartment that allows dogs of any size. He promises her five years. Yeah.

But the day they're going to drive down Route 1, Liam pulls up in front of Hannah's apartment in a Ferrari. Like a little two-seater, like, zoomy thing. Okay. Yeah.

I'm speechless. I'm so angry at Liam. This is obviously a problem because Hannah has all of her shit that she like needs to take to LA. And like Ferraris famously do not have a lot of space in them. Wasn't that rule number one too? Yeah.

Yes. So Hannah is like, I said you needed to get a car for us to drive to LA. And Liam is like, yeah, you said I needed to get a car for our road trip. Like this is a convertible. It's going to be great on Route 1. And Hannah's like, I meant like a van. I said big car. And Liam's like, but vans suck. Yeah.

And it's like, okay, but like I have all this shit and we're moving to LA and I have no way to get it there. Uh-huh. And Liam's like, oh, well, like my mom is like putting all of my stuff in a truck that movers are going to bring. So you can just like put your stuff, you can just take it to her house and we'll put it in the same truck. It's like...

The rich boy mindset will never fail to amaze me. Because, like, yeah, I can get in his head and follow the crazy line of logic he got there. But, Hannah, you got it. He broke rule one. This is when you break up with him. Rule one. Exactly. Yeah. I feel the same way. But Hannah does not feel this way, of course. Sure. Yeah. Hannah pairs down her stuff. She, like, drives it over to Liam's mom's house. When she gets there, Jesse is there.

Hannah's like, this is weird. I didn't see his car out front like I usually do. She's like, oh, hey, I'm just like dropping some stuff off. I was hoping you could like add them to the moving truck or whatever. Liam's mom is like, yeah, obviously, no problem. Of course, we'll do that. But she's like popping her knuckles the whole time. And Jesse is like rubbing his temple with his pointer finger and middle finger. He's like bent over the counter. Hannah's like, is everything okay?

Okay. In here. And they're both like, you don't need to worry about it, sweetie. Like, good to see you. Text us from the road. Bye. Okay. Candace like, okay. Do you think that she should ask Liam about this? Like, what do you think she should do at this point? Besides break up with him, which she's clearly not going to do. Yeah. I mean, she's already ignored all of my advice. So I don't know. But I...

I was kind of raised that, like, adults are not your friends. They're just, like, cool people you look up to. So I probably wouldn't... I wouldn't mention it, but I feel like she's going to. Hannah is, like...

It's probably nothing. Okay. Right? She's like, I'm just going to try and put it out of my mind. She's like, you know what? Now I'm in this convertible. We can't talk anyway because it's so loud. I'm like just going to try and enjoy this drive down Route 1. Is he leasing this or is this – like he bought this. Oh, he bought it. He bought it with like graduation money. What a terrible investment. It's only going to depreciate and you should have put that into like an IRA account. Yeah.

But it's fine. Rich people don't need IRA accounts. They have so much money. Sorry, this is my mom talking through me. Okay. So they're having a good time. They're like on their little drive. But around day two, Hannah's like, you know what? I just like really can't let this go. Like it's like it's stuck in my head like how weird they were being. And she's like, you know, I think I do need to tell Liam. So she tells Liam about it. And Liam's like, you know what? That is weird. But like –

They're adults. We're trying to have a nice road trip. Like, we'll call her in a few days and find out what's going on. Okay. Hannah's like, great. Seems fair. They arrive in Los Angeles for a few days. They're just like unpacking things, right? They're like putting up their furniture. They're like going to local shops to buy plants. They pick up a dog that like Liam promised them. And it's like an adorable, grumpy chihuahua that they named Tuna Fish. Best part of the story so far. I love it. We love Tuna Fish. Yes. Yes.

After a few days, Liam's like, okay, we're, like, settled in. I'm going to call my mom on FaceTime, right? Like, show her the apartment. Like, see how she's doing. So he, like, goes into the room to talk to his mom. And he comes back, like, very upset. And Hannah's like, what's up? Liam's like, my dad is suing my mom. What? Yeah. Apparently, what happened is Liam's dad hired a private investigator to follow Jesse around the city.

And even though the private investigator found no evidence, Liam's dad became convinced that Jessie was in a relationship with Liam's mom. But why is that sue worthy? Because apparently, according to their divorce settlement, Liam's mom is not allowed to date anyone for 15 years. 15 years? 15 years. Oh, this man's a monster. Oh my gosh.

And she agreed to that? Why would you agree to that? Money. She agreed to it for money. So now Liam's dad is suing her and threatening to pull the money that they agreed to in their divorce settlement because she has broken the terms by quote unquote dating Jesse. I'm sorry. I'm still looking at the 15 years part. That is such a long time. 15 years.

Oh, my God. Liam makes a lot of sense to me now. Like, knowing his father, I understand Liam a lot more. That sucks. Because, like, Liam sucks. Like, Liam is, like, a male manipulator. He's a bad filmmaker who thinks he's really good. And he's just, like, privileged in every single way. And I get it because boys learn from, I mean, all kids learn from their fathers. And they're always one degree nicer than their dads. And this dad is a monster, you know? Like, Liam makes sense to me now. Yes. Yeah.

Liam's dad has told his mom, apparently, if you want me to drop this case, then Jesse needs to come out publicly. Oh, that's terrible. It's awful. Hannah is like, this is so fucked up. I don't know what to do with this information. Liam is like,

furious. Like he's madder than Hannah has ever seen him. And he's like, this is fucked up. You do not make someone, you do not ruin someone's life for your stupid little divorce games. This is not about mom. It's only about money. He's like, Hannah, I'm so sorry. I know we found this nice apartment, but I just do not think I can accept money from my father anymore. And

He's like, I don't know how I could live with myself if I'm taking money from that guy who's holding it over people's heads and trying to ruin their lives for no reason. It means that like our life is going to be a little harder for a bit. But like, I think that that's what we need to do. Yeah, I agree. Great. Hannah's also like, that seems absolutely correct to me. So they stopped taking Liam's dad's money.

The problem, though, is that Hannah has a job doing social media for some brand, which is fine. But it pays like 40K a year and Liam is not working. Yeah, I figured. So now they are not accepting money from Liam's dad and they are living in an apartment that they bought assuming that they would have Liam's dad's money. Oh, they bought it? Or they didn't buy it. Excuse me. They're renting an apartment. They should move. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So they move. They move to like a smaller apartment.

Hannah's 40K salary is not enough money to like support them in Los Angeles. And Liam has like rich people brain worms. Yeah. So he like doesn't understand that he can't just spend money the same way he's always been spending money. Right. So he keeps like getting her gifts and like getting them takeout. And Hannah's like all this shit used to be really romantic. It is much less romantic now that it's making us financially precarious. Yeah. Yeah.

What do you think Kano should do? Let's check in. I think she should have broken up with him six years ago. That's what I think. But she didn't do that. I think she, I mean, I guess she should get them both budgeting apps and like, you know, and like make them watch a couple documentaries and be like, do you want to be like this? You know? But yeah, that's what I would do. I don't know.

Hannah is like, yes, she's like, I'm getting his budgeting apps. I'm like going to teach you how to think about money. Yeah. Also, she's like, this guy isn't going to get himself a job, but I could get him one.

Girl, just, oh, oh. You know? Like, I think part of why I'm so mad is I see Hannah's Darth version of myself because, like, I get it, you know? But also, like, stop. Stop doing that. That's what's hard is, like, she means so well. Of course. And she has so much love in her heart, but she's giving it to the wrong person. Exactly. There are people who could, like, generously accept this and reject it.

fill her back up. Absolutely. And Liam does not seem to be one of them. Yeah. But Hannah is extremely competent. And so she like makes him a resume, writes him a cover letter, does not link the film that he made and submits him for a job. Okay. Liam gets it. Wow. Great job, Hannah. But it's for a PA job, which means he's just like on set 24 seven. Right.

Right. Like he's exhausted. He's doing like the kind of work that just sucks. Right. You're like getting people's coffee, like cleaning stuff up. Right. Like he's just like he's not making movies. He's just like doing chores for people who are making movies. Yeah. And he's like, this sucks. Yeah.

And Hannah's like, I'm proud of you. Hannah's like, for the first time in our relationship, you're like working really hard. Yeah. And she's like, that's great. Like, I'm super proud of you. Things are going better. They're like feeling good for a few months. Mm-hmm.

Except Hannah makes her first friend in Los Angeles. Yay. And she's like a friend, right? This is essentially her first friend since high school because she like has just been head over heels in like Liam land. Her friend is also a production assistant and her friend is like much more available than Liam is. Huh. Yeah.

Okay. So she's like, it's so weird that like my friend is always available for dinner, but Liam is never home for dinner. Then maybe he's just working hard. Do they have, are they the same studio? Yes. Oh, okay. That's really weird. The overlap is, it's weird. Yeah, that is weird. Is he cheating on her? So she has a sneaking suspicion that he might be. Right. Yeah.

What do you think she should confront him? Like, what do you do in this scenario? Well, you do the classic mind games of like asking him conflicting questions. You track his location. You like stalk his followers. You talk to his friends. You know, I haven't done this before, but this is what I would do. So Hannah does the classic privacy invasion and she just goes through his phone. Yeah, sure. Okay. Going through someone's phone is always a dangerous game. What do you think she finds?

Is Jesse, like, selling him diamonds? I'm still stuck on the diamond necklace, Kelsey. I don't know, like, I...

Some part of me thinks it's like something from his dad or something. I don't know. No. So she only finds that he's like DMing lots of girls. Oh my God. Like it is like, like it's none of it is like clear that he's cheating, but it's also like he's cheating. Right. That's weird. There's no evidence, but it's like,

It looks it's enough. Right. It's just enough to feel that like pit in your stomach. And Hannah is like, I'm going to be sick. She's like, I have uprooted my life and moved to Los Angeles. She's like, I have helped this guy get everything he's ever wanted. She like sees her diamond necklace in the mirror. And it's like, I hate this thing. Like, it's like making me cry. She like takes it off. She's like, this is not the rom-com I asked for. This is not the rom-com I wanted. Like, I need more than this. Yeah. Yeah.

Finally, Hannah is like, it is time to break up with Liam. Oh my god. Finally. Oh my god. She's like, I cannot do this anymore. Yeah. I'm so sad for her. Because, like, poor girl. You know, I wish she had found out younger and had time to meet other guys in college. And, like, I wish he was a different man. But I'm, like...

I'm not even that proud of her because, like, this is, like, the last low rung of the bar, you know? Like, you waited to the last possible thing. Yeah.

I'm proud of her because I think like sometimes you just have to go through terrible things. That's true. Yeah, I get that. It sucks, but sometimes that happens. But she did it, right? She did it. Did she go through it? Yeah. She goes through it. She breaks up with him. Good. She like talks to Liam and she's like, I'm not happy here. I don't think that you're really happy either. And Liam's like, yeah, I'm not really happy either. And she's like, I'm like glad that we have this relationship, but I got to go. So after six years, Liam and Hannah broke up.

Hannah kept tuna fish. Good. She should. Her little chihuahua. Mm-hmm.

Hannah went to med school. She has a new boyfriend that she met in a meet cute. And they are very happy together, even though he does far fewer grand gestures. That's great. Oh, my gosh. I'm hearing Kelly Clarkson stronger in the background. You know, like everything's got a rose glow. And I hope she becomes a great doctor. That's awesome. But what about him? Who do you think is the villain of our story? I mean, I think the clear one is probably his dad, right? He's the most evil one to me.

So you don't think it's Liam? I think of the relationship, it's definitely Liam. And the broader story, I think that you can forgive a 17-year-old for a lot of stuff that you can't forgive a 42-year-old. So I don't know. Would you like to hear the final update? Yes, I would. Okay, so Hannah ran into Liam recently when they were both in the Pacific Northwest. It's been years since they broke up. They're in their late 20s now? Yeah, now they're in their late 20s. It's been years since they broke up.

And she was, like, happy to see him, right? They, like, hugged. They were like, you know, we should get coffee and, like, catch up. We haven't, like, talked at all. And he told her that Jesse was never gay. I knew it. I knew it. That sucks. His mom had been pulling a con for a decade on all of them so that she could ignore her divorce settlement. Yeah. I mean, okay. You know, like, I think I'm going to go with, like,

Pop off queen. Like, I think that's a good job. Right. But someone, someone hits you with that 15 year, no dating policy. I'm going to do a real fuck you to them. Right. How does he feel about that? Liam feels bad about it, but the updates from Liam are that he, um,

You know, he gave up on filmmaking. Good. Yeah. Which was probably for the best. But he still works like in film adjacent stuff. And he started going to therapy after he broke up with Hannah. And he is doing much better. Okay. How did he get the money for the diamond necklace? Dad gave it to him. All right. I don't know why I was so caught up on that. Wait, okay. I just like...

I kind of wanted something bad to happen to Liam, you know? Yeah. Maybe the bad thing was that he lost Hannah, but, like, I'm a little unsatisfied because, like, he was just, like, so, like, uncaring to her, you know? But I think that's the thing that's hard about these stories is, like, they're not always satisfying because they are true, right? And so it's, like, yeah, there's no, like, anvil that drops on Liam's head at the end of the third act, but I do think that, like,

the repercussions of like learning that your parents are terrible is rough. That is rough. And like, I think that he is probably had a hard time with it because there is a punishment to like having your girlfriend do everything for you for six years and then suddenly being an adult and being alone. And yeah, yeah. Wow. That's crazy. I mean,

Like, Jesse is still confounding me. Like, him being a part of this, I'm like, okay, wow. I never thought he was gay, right? Because, like, I don't know. In my experience, all of my gay friends are way more social than having one friend they spend all their time with, you know? And I'm like, maybe he's bi and secretly wants to, like, you know, kiss the mom on the mouth, right? Maybe that's what's going on. Yeah. Oh, wow. Interesting. Interesting.

Huh. How are you feeling? We're done. We made it to the end. My face is hot. I feel like I went through that whole thing with you and Hannah. That's crazy. I mean, like, yeah. I mean, like, I think that, like, a lot of women can relate to this story because, like,

you know, I feel like the conversation just only recently shifted away from like, hey, maybe you shouldn't fix your boyfriend, you know? And like, maybe like you should expect him to do the things that you want him to do, you know? Yes. And like, I only learned that in the past like year. And like, it just like sucks to hear how long she held on to him and did everything for him and like was never even like that appreciated by him for like setting up his life, you know? That sucks. And I think that's the hard thing, right? Is that like,

she convinced herself that what romance was was her martyring herself for him and like

That's not what romance is, right? And she figured that out eventually, but it took her some time. Yeah. Yeah. I had that realization. I had a really bad breakup, and I realized that I used to think love meant that you put someone beside you at the center of yourself and you carried them around beside you. But then after that breakup, I realized love is like adding another thing tethered to you with a rope. It's another thing you keep close, but it's not something you put at the center of yourself.

because it misaligns you and it misdirects you. I think it takes a really long time to even think about that. Exactly. And I think especially with someone like this who idolized relationships and then found herself in one that was good for a little bit of time

And then rapidly became not good for her. Yeah. It's hard to get yourself out. I think another lesson we've learned from this is that gift giving is not romantic. It just means you're rich. You know? I really like that you've, like, come in hot against gifts. You're like, no gifts. Which is funny because, like, I love giving gifts. You know, like, I love a thoughtful, thought-out gift. But if someone, if you like someone because they're giving you gifts or giving you grand gestures, like, like that.

Who am I? Kim Kardashian? You know, like, I'm a regular woman. Like, give me a card. You know, draw me a drawing. Give me a hug. Yeah.

Wow, that's crazy. I'm sorry, Hannah, that you had to go through that. Me too. I'm glad she's going to be a doctor. She's got a boyfriend. She's going to be a doctor. I hope Tona Fish is still alive. Same. Yeah. Emma, thank you so much for coming on Normal Gossip. It was a delight to have you. Thank you so much. Oh, man. Let me come back anytime. This was so fun. And wow, I'm going to be thinking about this forever. Bye. Bye.

Thank you for listening to Normal Gossip. If you have a gossip story to share with us, email us at normalgossip at defector.com or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679-GOSSIP. If you love this podcast and want us to keep making it, become a friend or a friend of a friend at supportnormalgossip.com. You can follow me on all social media at McKinney Kelsey. This podcast is produced by Alex Sujan Laughlin. Defector's projects editor is Justin Ellis. Our editor-in-chief is Tom Ley. J.

Jay Toll is our production assistant. Thanks to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber-based media company. I'm Kelsey McKinney, and remember, you did not hear this from me. Radiotopia from PRX.